Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[Phillammon]

VOTE: GammaEmerald for colours and shouting

[Phillammon]

Bold.

So, setup wise IC means at least 1 M. So that's good to know off the bat and eliminates seven Ts, which is... something?

[Phillammon]

UNVOTE: I'd prefer not to get a wagon rolling quite that hard in the RVS, thanks

[Phillammon]

Implosion, sure, still a damn sight more than I am comfortable with that early on.

VOTE: James Brafin the entire point of RVS is that someone *does* have information, and we're trying to see who it is. A brief search suggests you do this every game, but I still don't like that at all.

Probably relatively northerly here too, but given I live north of 42 degrees, our calibrations for what constitutes north may differ

[Phillammon]

No, I'm voting them because they are refusing to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them, and applying pressure is a good way to

force

them to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them.

[Phillammon]

Sakura leaning scum, you leaning town, brafin was leaning scum til I did a meta search at which point it became "null but learn more"

[Phillammon]

Jackal also leaning town now that I think about it more.

[Phillammon]

I'll be honest, that was definitely the case in the past, but I'd like to think I've changed somewhat in the five years since I last played a game here. People did always tend to draw very strong, very fast reads on me.

Their accuracy left something to be desired, but hey.

[Phillammon]

Dryfit, any specific reads on that list you disagree with, or just generically don't feel they're good?

[Phillammon]

James, the meta dive was literally just "confirming you said that same paragraph at the start of previous games", which you had.

That sure is one heck of a response, though. Vote's not going anywhere, as a consequence.

[Phillammon]

(I directly stated that's what the "meta-dive" consisted of, even. In a post that you just quoted.)

[Phillammon]

...in fact now I'm looking at your posts here harder, it's hard to remotely reconcile your claimed methodology with that vote, and as you say, you don't vote randomly. So yeah, James back to looking very suspect here.

[Phillammon]

I have to concur. (If anything, you've kind of proved my point here. In your response to being voted, you have responded and given a whole bunch of information about your reasoning!) (That immediately changes when you're called on it) (That's generally not how town reasoning works)

[Phillammon]

To be absolutely clear, because you're claiming I was voting you for not giving information in a single post: Your refusal to vote in RVS was itself the thing that was denying information, and threatened to continue. Voting for you was intended to get you to give us information sooner rather than later. And hey, look at that, it worked.

[Phillammon]

(Sufficiently advanced scumhunting is indistinguishable from magic. This is that, and it's looking genuine. Implosion looking townier by the second.)

James in 71 (...and most of the rest, honestly) is rubbing me all kinds of the wrong way, but it's the wrong way that comes across to me as "bulldog town" more than it does scum. Will reassess later. The "I pulled us out of RVS" and "you're trying to force me into a 1v1" from... the person I was trying to pull out of RVS and am trying to disengage from comes across as astonishing levels of projection, but the fact projection is being attempted there strikes me more as "is trying to find scum and has decided I'm it" more than it does "trying to deflect onto me" now, so all seems well if unfun to play with there.

Sakura's behaviour continues to feel scummy, though.

[Phillammon]

Having difficulty drawing a bead on Pursival and Gamma. Lemme go read back a bit more.

[Phillammon]

Also that.

[Phillammon]

I'm getting stone nothing from gamma with a fair few posts, which isn't good. There's questions, but nothing substantive, and the questions themselves aren't great either. Persivul I'm liking more off the bat, and is apparently the only person who actually read the mod's posts, which is always a plus.

UNVOTE: while I'm here.

[Phillammon]

Can't say I'm familiar with Gamma's meta, no.

(I like that James has doubled down on this formal logic argument so hard that they've missed that I've not been arguing either the conclusion

or

the axia that they've assigned to me )

[Phillammon]

Apparently we're both wrong and it's either axioms or axiomata.

James, I don't deny that you're failing to see it, that much is clear . You were refusing to participate in RVS, so I applied pressure to bring you out of RVS so you would start giving useful information. For someone who claims not to respond to pressure, you sure did... respond to it.

But again: Outside of myself, who is clearly the scummiest scum who ever scummed: What are your initial impressions of the rest of the playerlist?

[Phillammon]

Chemist, I'll be honest with you, when I said that I had totally misread the setup and thought that 7 Ts was the only one with a serial killer. That said, fair.

[Phillammon]

I wasn't certain (see again "unclear on the setup"). Though once again, fair point.

[Phillammon]

I apologise, the in 101 should have been explicit rather than implied. Yes, it's not being used as an indicator, mostly just ribbing implosion and gamma for missing the IC reveal.

[Phillammon]

Hey. Are you mafia?

[Phillammon]

Thespio, howso?

VOTE: Sakura Hara strikes me as scummiest at the moment, but it's not a huge lean.

[Phillammon]

Implosion, I get the feeling that that's not an indicator of any alignment, is all, and is just how James functions.


...which can be said for nearly everything they have said this game.

[Phillammon]

At that point mostly, and their reasoning towards the random wagon rubbed me the wrong way, but... it was page 2. There was not much to work with. Since then things have changed- 159 is particularly weird to me, because there was at that point a significant amount more to work from- I read that as them looking for specific people to do things that are indicative, which suggests either they have a bunch of townreads they haven't mentioned, orrrrr that they have hidden information. Hence scumread.

[Phillammon]

No, I'm voting them because they are refusing to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them, and applying pressure is a good way to

force

them to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them.

But it wasn't a good way with Gamma?

That's very much a false equivalence. Not least because Gamma was throwing out votes, at the very least- but yeah, the reasons that things form is one helluva lot more important than the actual formation.

[Phillammon]

Drew, what do you feel is off with 151?

I mean, not that I'm objecting.

[Phillammon]

I feel like it's just poor timing and a genuine read, not sure it is actually a problem

[Phillammon]

I hadn't seen page 11 when I posted it, but sure, let's go with that.

[Phillammon]

(I'm... not sure it's even the popular sentiment atm, looking at the VC. Nevertheless, it's how I feel about it.)

[Phillammon]

...Okay, stupid question, Persivul- I was expecting a vote at the end of that but I was expecting it to be for GE

[Phillammon]

EBWOP: Right, the actual question. Why Thespio over GE, after that observation?

[Phillammon]

Greeting tell is a new one to me. Literally just "scum feels pressured to post *something* but doesnt want to post meaningful stuff, so greetings are a scumtell?"

(Plastic pinging town off these. Good first impression)

[Phillammon]

Spangled, explained in 203, but basically they're doing a lot of acting like there's nothing to work from when a fair few people are making useful noise to generate reads based off. See 159, and more recently the post about slow opens rather than... a useful contribution. This suggests to me they want

specific

people to be making noise to me, which is odd at best for town.

[Phillammon]

No. I'd rather you share any reads that have developed naturally, and I think that the fact you haven't developed, or at least shared, reads on several players really weird, particularly given your calls for noise. Persivul in particular is conspicuous in their absence* from your ISO, for example. (Which reminds me, haven't shared my feelings on them yet- was looking a bit scummy, but 214 forward give a really townish impression)

*well. aside from quoting one line of theirs in relation to thespio

[Phillammon]

199 through 201 and to a lesser extent 58, though on reflection I may just be disliking the former because they're pointed at me and I feel they're unfair. 199 I responded to as such at the time.

[Phillammon]

Honestly the entire clumsy "baiting" thing with James rubbed me the wrong way. I get why trying to elicit an emotional response is useful for scumhunting, but it was... almost performatively transparent.

[Phillammon]

The meta-read half of it seems fine, but the callout of the responses as BS seemed... I'm having difficulty articulating. Overly reductive?

[Phillammon]

VOTE: chemist

I didn't like that vote, and I like the unvote even less. (Yes, I know I did a similar thing way earlier. I have bad expreiences with "accidental" extended quickhammers in RVS.)

[Phillammon]

I don't really like Chem's unvote the more I think about it.

Why not?

I can't speak to anyone else, but for me the unvote looks like "I want to look like i am pressuring Dry but I don't actually want them to die" with an added dose of "hey look, I was on the wagon as early as <whenever>" if they flip scum at some point.

[Phillammon]

Wait, no, I'm wrong, that mindset doesnt make sense. This would have to be "does want dry dead but doesnt want to be on the wagon"

[Phillammon]

...which in turn would suggest thespio and chem on a team, which I can buy, though it is maybe early to be looking for associatives.

[Phillammon]

[voteCHANGED MY MIND SEE BELOW]Thespio[/vote]

Hey look, it's mutual! You're right, I don't have information to work off yet to build associations beyond how you're behaving towards each other, and towards people who vote for either of you... which there's plenty of. I think that there is a connection between the two of you, based on 307 looking like prompting, 314 being a nigh content free momentum shift off you, and now 338 and 339 going the opposite direction.

338 also gets bonus extra scumpoints for the way that you forgot information comes from... what people say, not just hidden info, and you're *also* trying to push me without actually getting your vote on me, which smacks of "wants the lynch to happen but doesn't want to be on the wagon itself when people do VCA later". Which, strangely, is the same thing that chem is doing.

(This said, I'm aware that masons are a thing that can technically happen in this setup alongside IC, which would also be a valid connection, but that seems to be a) quite improbable and b) do a real bad job of explaining your voting behaviour, or lack of same)

(I admit this conflicts with my existing Sakura scumread, as chem/Sakura's interactions don't look S/S.)
------
OKAY SO while I was looking back over chem/sakura to check how I feel about that last parenthesised bit, came across 328 again, which I can't really reconcile with the general thrust of my point here- the chem -> thesp side of the association was already a bit flimsy, though the thesp -> chem bit seems relatively sound, and 328 doesn't fit at all, so I'm barking up totally the wrong tree here. I still feel it's important I get my thought processes out there, at the very least so I can refer back later when I've totally forgotten everything, but retracting the vote, cause I don't agree with my own conclusion there.

[Phillammon]

I still think Chem and Thesp's behaviour is individually pretty suspect, to be clear, just unwilling to draw a line between them. So gonna stick with Chem for the time being.

[Phillammon]

VOTE: Chemist, then.

[Phillammon]

Sakura leaning scum, you leaning town, brafin was leaning scum til I did a meta search at which point it became "null but learn more"

Why is Hana scumlean for you? And you voted JB after you did the meta search which led you to a null read on him?

Why vote JB a meta null read, over Hana a scumlean for you?

At that point in the game, using vote to pull people into playing the game makes a lot more sense than to give weight to a read. JB started doing things, I pulled vote off James. I feel like... nearly everything in the wall after that relating to me gets recharacterised after that, but ymmv.

(Disliking the self-awareness in the wall but liking the insights, probably town but *really* unpleasant. Going over implo in particular in more detail may be worthwhile, hadn't given much thought to that one)

[Phillammon]

The comment on crafting a narrative sticks out to me.

[Phillammon]

Spangled, literally the opposite. Sorry, should have clarified.

[Phillammon]

I'm pretty sure it isn't an alignment indicator, hence the townread, I just dislike it on a personal level.

[Phillammon]

To answer the question: I found your entrance severely lacking in self-awareness, but I don't find that to be indicative, was what I was meaning. What implo is pointing out here is one part of it. Your anecdote about the "cop level read" that was right but got mislynched.

(I particularly disliked how you characterised that as the fault of the person you lynched, for bonus points)

[Phillammon]

Sorry: What I am interpreting implo as pointing out here. I am ready to be told I have misunderstood you, implo.

[Phillammon]

Your solidity on the reads you're throwing out is doing really good impressions of that, is all. See also your comments about "crafting a narrative" in 398- your reads show no signs of changing after about somewhere around 408, and anything after that point not fitting them is ignored, discarded or twisted to fit your preconceptions. I don't think that the way you're doing it is scum behaviour. I do think that it represents an issue in reasoning.

Hell, look at 392 and compare it to 551.

PEdit: Wonderful, or 561 (and 474) and compare it to 393/388

[Phillammon]

Foeming reads as you go along is great, and is indeed the game we're playing. 408's content is nothing to do with this and more "after this point, nothing changes". You stopped forming reads and started hardening them. You had capital D Decided, and from there forward you are piling evidence on your existing reads and ignoring or discarding anything that doesn't fit.

Pretty sure Sakura spotted this starting to happen in 436, what with the "I feel like I was reading an exciting book and i can predict how it will end." comment.

(Hardening reads: again, not inherently a problem, just

all

new information should be contributing to the hardening (or softening, or changing) rather than just the convenient stuff)

PEdit: though if that's a genuine "show me town phil", I admit that changes things. Slightly ironically.

[Phillammon]

...I feel like we're talking past each other somewhat, but honestly that last para sufficiently clarifies your stance to me, so I'll stop badgering.

[Phillammon]

408 itself Is nothing to do with any point I am making. I get what you are talking about in that post. You do not need to continually explain it. It is just noticable in the context of your ISO as the last point at which anything really changes. It makes sense as a natural plateau only if you genuinely believe that everything after 135 is not info (outside of, as you say, wagons, claims and flips, of which we've had none). Given you've been calling out people for making reads based on what you consider to be not enough posts, that feels real early to hit that "plateau"

[Phillammon]

Sorry, has been

really warm

and checking in here slipped my mind. You want a full read list, FF?

[Phillammon]

Town:

Spangled, Implosion, Formerfish, Skygazer

Townlean:

James Brafin, Persivul but it's slight

No read:

Gobbledygook (slot has slight scummish tinge, but the way other people have behaved around it makes me uncertain. Gonna see what the new occupant looks like), Gamma Emerald (the fact this is still the case after I've stared at their iso for five minutes is not a good thing (for my scumhunting abilities, I mean))

Scumlean:

Drew, Sakura Hana, Thespio maaaaaybe? (338/339 struck me as really weird in context, just inasmuch as it felt very much like the accusation of secret information was out of left field?), Chemist

Scum:

I don't feel sufficiently secure in any of my reads to put anyone here. Hana was my strongest until I did the reread to make this list, but I think I may like Chemist/Thespio better now? (More due to my read on Sakura shrinking off than thinking Chemist is any scummier than they were before. Thespio is feeling scummier now, so that's definite movement)

[Phillammon]

I can see how it would be read as secret info, but it seems like a very strange place to jump to immediately and something in the back of my head makes me think it's projection. (Plus you followed it up by claiming you hadn't read me much when your only other meaningful post was talking about having read my ISO, which seemed particularly... off)

[Phillammon]

EBWODP: Disregard that last part, there's a good six pages between those posts and that wasn't the catchup you were talking about. Sorry

[Phillammon]

(Sorry, not sure if I'm missing some lingo here- is there more to "mind meld" than just "I agree with this person's thoughts", or...)

[Phillammon]

Means they thought the same thing as they were reading.

Ah, cool. Sorry.

Side note: Rereading your ISO right now because my read isn't sitting well with me. Could I ask you to elaborate on the exciting book comment (as in, was I way off base?), and while we're at it- you've commented a couple times on wagon speed itself not being indicative- do you feel that people clearing off the wagons is?

[Phillammon]

Sorry, to rephrase: What do you think that people clearing off is indicative of. It's fairly obvious from context you think it's indicative (unless I am totally misunderstanding you)

[Phillammon]

Totally reasonable on both counts, thanks. Bump Sakura up to townlean on previous readlist, I'm pretty sure I just convinced myself her behaviour was scummy rather than actually seeing any scummy behaviour, if that makes sense.

[Phillammon]

Sakura, valid.

[Phillammon]

Apologies, weather has not let up. Reading over the last few pages: Drew looking worse by the second, Gobble making a poor first impression on me. I'm preferring chemist and thesp in that order as lynches, and if push comes to shove with deadline will vote Thesp, but not feeling particular time pressure on this one.

Gamma is coming across townie for reasons I struggle to articulate, which at least means I have *a* read on them now.