Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[Persivul]

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

Does that work when you announce that's what you're doing?

[Persivul]

Hey everyone, I’m James Brafin.
Some things to know:
I policy vote/lynch toxicity. Period. I don’t want it in my game. It’s no fun for anyone.

Fuck you.

I don’t like RVS. I’ve heard it said that it builds information, but how can you build information on no foundation? So I’m abstaining my vote. When I put it up you can assume your RVS is over.

Kind of agree. I don't think you can get near as much from RVS as some people think. But as to foundation - meta is somewhat of a foundation.

I’m also doing a touch of research to improve my preliminary reads, so if I ask a weird question just play along.

Speaking of weird questions, I’d appreciate it if everyone would answer this:
If you could live anywhere, where would it be and why?

Your sister's house. I hear she's freaky.

[Persivul]

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

What Meta Gives You Such An Impression

None?

So you're just guessing?

[Persivul]

All responses noted.
To those who have an issue: I understand your concern, but I promise there is a very good reason for this. Let’s just say I’m trying to change the game so to speak.

I was toxic. Why aren't you voting me?

[Persivul]

You should know, if you actually meta-dived, that if you vote me I feel no pressure.

You seem to be feeling pressure from both Phil and me.
VOTE: James Brafin

[Persivul]

I actually really strongly dislike Skellen's two posts so far. It reads like scum who opened the thread, saw James's question and said "oh sure, I can answer that", then continued reading the thread looking for something to respond to, saw my post with my random-ass townreads, and went "oh sure, I can give a response to this."

Push that and I'll fight you to the end.

[Persivul]

I actually really strongly dislike Skellen's two posts so far. It reads like scum who opened the thread, saw James's question and said "oh sure, I can answer that", then continued reading the thread looking for something to respond to, saw my post with my random-ass townreads, and went "oh sure, I can give a response to this."

Push that and I'll fight you to the end.

Interesting, why

Because skellen's the fucking IC.

[Persivul]

Skellen has been revealed to be an Innocent Child and aligned with The Town!

[Persivul]

Drew, I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that most people got that I was having some fun with it. I don't find it AI at all, hence no push over it.

[Persivul]

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

^ Person with a sense of humor.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE: I'd prefer not to get a wagon rolling quite that hard in the RVS, thanks

Why not?

When wagons develop organically early they can give good information. Why did you purposely defuse it?

[Persivul]

Okay I'm done trolling.

Why did you troll at all? I don't recall seeing that from you. Is it something you've done before? If not...why now?

[Persivul]

No, I'm voting them because they are refusing to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them, and applying pressure is a good way to

force

them to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them.

But it wasn't a good way with Gamma?

[Persivul]

Sakura leaning scum

Why? OMGUS?

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

Does that work when you announce that's what you're doing?

Yes! Technology is genuinely incredible.

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

What Meta Gives You Such An Impression

None?

So you're just guessing?

No? Not everything has to be based in meta. Things can be based in an impression of someone's personality that I got from like two posts.

These responses are BS, but if IIRC we played as scum together once, and you don't feel at all like you're in your scum game.

[Persivul]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town. E.g., 62-64 is a good reaction.

Does that implicate James to you? I.e. do you read their interactions as TvT or TvS?

[Persivul]

And now I’ve made clear the validity of my points, he backs off.
I’m not sure how I feel about that.

I don't like the way you declare that your own arguments are valid, but that's a playstyle issue. Regarding Phil unvoting a couple posts previously: I'm always pinged when someone bothers to unvote this early in the game.

[Persivul]

Can't say I'm familiar with Gamma's meta, no.

I get the feeling that Gamma is intentionally experimenting with new playstyles.

[Persivul]

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

IMO it's NAI, and I didn't want someone else to steal my punchline.

[Persivul]

This post is wolfy because it contributes literally nothing to the game while trying to appear like it does

Yeah, I think we're all familiar with IIoA. Don't like the way you're phrasing it here like it's some big new discovery. Plus it was still RVS.

[Persivul]

Chemist is pinging me. So is Pers, who doesn't seem toe really be adding anything to the gamestate

I was in fuck-off mode yesterday. Was more interested in trolling libs in the Trump thread than actually thinking.

[Persivul]

That seems very passive-aggressive and drift-y to me, like he doesn't give a flip. I don't like that.
Also, I haven't played with you in years. Can I get a confirmation of this, or do I need to meta dive?

Chemist has been like that a lot lately. Probably not AI, but defintiely doesn't help things.

[Persivul]

So Phillammom, you seem odd... your ISO isnt the best

Ouch. Coming right after a VC showing Phil as the leading wagon, this is really bad.

[Persivul]

Here all alone...

[Persivul]

I don't think Thespio's ISO justifies this flash wagon

It's not good but nothing worse than nullscum on their last post

Your attempt to derail is noted.

[Persivul]

Can anyone actually articulate what is wrong with 151

I feel like it's just poor timing and a genuine read, not sure it is actually a problem

This post is scummy, is following along with a popular sentiment mindlessly like a #metoo post

You articulated it yourself. But for some reason, you see it in Phil, but claim not to see the same thing in Thespio.

VOTE: Thespio

[Persivul]

EBWOP: Right, the actual question. Why Thespio over GE, after that observation?

Because GE also has some good stuff in his ISO. Overall I have him as null or a slight town lean.

Thespio doesn't have a single redeeming post.

[Persivul]

No, Im against someone saying "If you rub me the wrong way Im gonna lynch you" Do you disagree?

That's not what he said. I went out of my way to rub him the wrong way to test that. He didn't push me because he figured I was trolling him rather than really having toxic intent. I think he was legitimately saying that he didn't want to be in a game with truly toxic players.

[Persivul]

This you could have drug out a bit. I would have just said that if you couldnt see how skell was obvtown then you should case him and then let people hang themselves. It can backfire too, jingle cased himself once in a game and called his pred scum, he wasnt. We won the game, nbd.

In my experience, town misses mod info like that all the time. I think it's NAI. But, someone else (forget who right now) said the same thing so I might try that next time.

BTW your entrance is lookin' tahn 'nat

[Persivul]

So the Fish is prob town here. I don’t think scum has that level of faked scumhunting, posted thought process, and detail.

That's what I think too. So, what do you make of Implosion saying "Most of the things he’s doing are fakeable"?

I mean like the primary premise of mafia is that it's

not

easy to fake those things.

[Persivul]

If you think that town misses info like that, and it's NAI, why did you go at the people who missed the info so hard?

I didn't go at them hard. No push, no votes based on it. Didn't let it go on, as you noted yourself. So. why do you portray me as going after them hard? The single word "fucking"?

And I'm not getting the slang at the end of your post there. It's that a nod to me living in Pittsburgh?

Yes. Should be obvious to anyone who's lived in Pittsburgh for more than a month or so.

I should tell everyone i was raised in an actually decent state not here.

I'll have to check state mottoes for the

I have a stick up my ass

state. Pretty sure that's where you're from.

[Persivul]

I mean partly, also because you got involved at all. I never understand why town gets involved in things like that. Last game I played one player did a fakehammer gambit, and another player stepped in the middle of it and fucked it up. They both ended up being town, but that act led me to scumread the guy breaking it up. He couldnt give a good reason for getting involved and thats an issue for me.

So, you knowingly scum read people for playstyle differences, and can't change.

Ive lived in Pittsburgh for 6 years and what you said is not recognizable to any of the tribes as native slang. Were you trying to go for an n'at?

LMAO - it's not recognizable...yet you recognized it.

That was close, but maybe your Yinzer slang proficiency is lacking, along with some other qualities you are clearly exhibiting a deficiency in.

No Pittsburgher would recognize tahn for town?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... m=dahntahn

Sounds like we might be from the same homestate if you think i have a stick up my ass. You have been the one intentionally trying to rile people up.

Not people, person.

To what end? Whats your goal?

As noted, I wanted to see if his declaration on toxicity was really an excuse to vote anyone for any uncivil behavior. It worked.

Make on of us angry and hope that we say something scummy enough for you to latch onto and you can easily slip into a tunnel that isnt going to go anywhere but allow you to act busy cause you are so focused on that one person everyone else has as townish, but you, you know youve found a deep wolf...

Try being less of a dick.

Two words - first one is

Fuck

.

[Persivul]

496 - Most of the things he’s doing are fakeable.

515 - I think it's something that most people aren't capable of faking

[Persivul]

You seem to have an obstinate view of how town members act, that is based on how you act as town. And yet when you see examples of town members acting in different ways, you don't update your internal model of how they act; you just cast those examples as aberrations. You don't understand why town gets involved in things like that, but... empirically, they do. Similarly, town are empirically sometimes extremely sure of themselves (though to clarify, that surety in that quote from me was sarcastic), yet you still find things like that suspicious.

^ This.

[Persivul]

Pers is making this all personal and isnt saying whether he agrees with my reads or not and why.

Most people aren't saying whether they agree with your reads or not.

Here's where we're butting heads:

I would care as either alignment because that means that I no longer

have control over the game

at all and dont trust the living to listen to the dead to win us the game.

You bust in and want to have control over the game.

I naturally dislike/distrust people who want to be town leader. If they're scum and they succeed, it's usually game over for town. While you seem townie enough, you're exactly the kind of player I'd investigate. But, I'm unusual in that respect. Most people investigate obv scummy players who are going to get lynched anyway.

[Persivul]

Holy shit I thought imp was exaggerating, but fish has 143 posts already.

[Persivul]

Thats nothing, last newbie i finished at 1500+ posts.

Which makes it impossible to reasonably analyze your ISO for most players.

[Persivul]

I am.

[Persivul]

Pers, what are your reads so far?

Like: Skygazer, James, Sakura
Don't like: Thespio, Phil
Drew: probably more good than bad in his ISO, but enough bad that I don't like him yet
Gamma: without meta would seem OK, but he's playing differently than he did earlier in the year (when he basically didn't do anything as either alignment) and I don't like that he denied my point that he's experimenting with playstyles, which I think is true
Chemist: sick of him joining games and not doing anything. Good investigation target.
Gobbledy: nothing to go on yet.

Which brings us to:
You v. imp: Not scum theater. Could be TvT or TvS. Too soon to say.

[Persivul]

That about right?

Not really. More like this, with no particular order within groups::

{Skygazer, James, Sakura}
{Everyone else, for various reasons}
{Phil}
{Thespio}

[Persivul]

Thespio has yet to generate any content. Still motioning for a Thespio lynch.

This. Sometimes scum are just lurky scum.

[Persivul]

Yeah I had a feeling we wouldnt get along seeing as you are a policy lyncher not a content lyncher.

Pretty huge misrep there.

[Persivul]

I can talk normally too.

No, don't. Or do, but keep up the notes as well. I'm digging them. In fact:
VOTE: Drew

[Persivul]

I can talk normally too.

No, don't. Or do, but keep up the notes as well. I'm digging them. In fact:
VOTE: Drew

Why vote Drew?

As suggested above, because I think Sak's notes posts on Drew are pretty damning. What do you think of those posts?

[Persivul]

What exactly is pretty damning about it.

It's very obvious from the posts themselves. Do you really want me to repeat them?

[Persivul]

Yes, because I basically just explained away one of Sakuras reasons to vote me.

IOW, you've demonstrated that you're able to respond to them without me repeating them.

Feel free to continue rebuttals of Sakura. I find it odd that, when I clearly make a sheep vote, you try to get into conversation with me rather than the originator.

[Persivul]

Look at the time stamps of 1011 and 1012. How could I respond to a vote that was being placed as I was writing a post.

p-edit

[Persivul]

What? How would you have preferred Drew to address your vote?

I would have preferred that he addressed Sak's notes posts directly, rather than asking me why they're damning. Asking questions with obvious answers is something scum do to appear to be addressing issues. I mean come on, do you have any problem seeing what's damning about these?

Note:

Doctor drew sheeps without asking why, or is possible he saw my second post and didnt bother asking

Note:

Drew found it easy to jump into the wagon and is now trying to find a reason to unvote

Note:

Drew's doubts get erased as soon as fish votes him

[Persivul]

So if I am hearing you correctly, according to you, I had the reply screen up just by happenstance and saw Fish vote me, after I hit reply presumably from something else I was going to post, and was able to erase all that and then make the post I made. All in less then a minute.

No. According to me, when I hit the submit button and someone had posted while I was typing, the system automatically goes to the new posts and doesn't submit. No happenstance at all.

[Persivul]

I hate to make excuses, but:
- I just had a lylo game finish
- The game I'm modding just ended phase
- I'm going camping later today and won't be back until sometime Sunday

I have every intention of catching up when I get back and participating live well before end of phase. Thanks!

mod: VLA until Sun 8.4

Noted.
-Kor

[Persivul]

Persivul, to answer you, I do not have an issue seeing the problems with Drew’s votes.

Yes, the issues are obvious, which is why his request for me to explain them was rejected.

[Persivul]

I specifically said I reckon that I need to, not that I was going to.

Fuck yeah fish, why are you misrepping him like that? Why would you think "I reckon that I need to" meant that he was actually going to? [/sarcasm]

[Persivul]

Maybe it will come in a rather unorthodox way, but I think it’s fair to assume I’m anything but orthodox.

Terribly

mysterious.

[Persivul]

Objectively I don't like anything about Drew's play today, but subjectively, he feels more like self-centered town than defensive scum, at least enough that I don't want to be on a L-2 wagon when I go on VLA.
UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

Speaking of Rick, all he's done so far is say that he reckons he'd catch up, but wont necessarily do it, and argue with fish semantics, and saying he'll do something, but not do anything in the end.

Well word on the street is that he's

anything

but orthodox. Maybe he's doing stuff that's just not apparent to common folk.

[Persivul]

I'm here and starting to catch up, but 10 pages might take awhile.

[Persivul]

@mod
Sicker than any dog you care to name with a diarrhea-and-vomit bug; consider me V/LA indefinitely. If I merit a prod and a half, feel free to rep me out.

Noted.
-Kor

Ew...TMI.

[Persivul]

Seems like the "people you could see yourself voting" and "scum is in here" is people that scumread you or is voting you.

Plus voting the one who hasn't been posting for several days isn't a great look.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Drew

Hammer time baby

Since this was yesterday I assume it's yet another fake hammer which doesn't provide any useful information.

[Persivul]

This seems awfully orchestrated.

This play is so overused it's pretty much worthless.

[Persivul]

Spoiler:

Who am I protecting?

Who am I protecting?

Trying to work out if any of the votes on my are from town, and I keep coming back to this. After reading this little back and forth I just get the sense he was being a bit opportunistic and placing a vote and than kind of buckling to his reason behind the vote. Like he knows he

misdiagnosed

the situation but maybe didn't want to look bad by immediately changing vote?

It was after this post that Turkey pulled off me, which I thought means he saw this.

In my first game here, the scum IC crumbed every possible town role so she could choose from them later. She rode a fakeclaim a long way based on that. Point being that anyone can crumb anything. It proves nothing. But, good scum can spot them and NK you for it.

[Persivul]

When myself or Turkey pressed Persivul, he was just dismissive and defensive.

Turkey hasn't pressed me at all. He's put up a couple votes, but no case, no real attempts to interact with me.

[Persivul]

Gut mainly.

I'm glad you're being honest. Your ISO has pretty much nothing against me. In fact, most of my mentions in your ISO are in your discussions with Drew, where you're saying his reasons for scum reading me are bad.

For me, it stems from the feeling that I do not think he is scumhunting. He made a read list with two scum reads (Thespio, Phil), but he barely interacted with them or tried to sort them. He voted Thespio and then... waited for his death. Coming into today, he has said nothing about Phil/Rick, which was his second strongest scumread according to yesterday. More importantly, I think, are his two big votes. His major votes this game (Thespio, Drew) seem to use other people's logic? If that makes sense. I quoted the two posts below.

First, note that you've barely interacted with me or tried to sort me. Second, I purposely sheep better players than myself in the early game, because I suck at tone reads.

I think he is voting this way to distance himself from the votes if things go south. I also thought it was odd that Persivul unvoted Drew when Persivul went V/LA.

When I vote Thespio and leave it there, that pings you. When I vote Drew, then say he's looking townier and so unvote him, that pings you as well.

[Persivul]

I can buy scum!Persivul, but I’d rather he caught up and actually responded to his developing wagon before I vote one way or another.

What do you think of the fact that a wagon was developing on me

while I was gone

?

[Persivul]

I can buy scum!Persivul, but I’d rather he caught up and actually responded to his developing wagon before I vote one way or another.

What do you think of the fact that a wagon was developing on me

while I was gone

?

Never mind. From what you said I figured there were more votes coming at me. Two isn't much of a developing wagon at this point. Especially since one of the voters took a lot of time refuting the other's reasons for voting me. Strange bedfellows.

[Persivul]

Pers, not sure why you being away when I voted you has any bearing. Don't use that as a way of discrediting me. And any attempt that Turkey or myself questioned your vote on me all you did was say 'fuck off, go look at Sakuras posts'.

Turkey came around on that point:

Persivul, to answer you, I do not have an issue seeing the problems with Drew’s votes.

Why haven't you?

Why do you keep trying to link yourself to turkey?

[Persivul]

i'd also like to point out that gobble has acted to remove pressure from drew;

Also note that they were voting each other a fair amount yesterday, but now they're back to back on my wagon.

Doubtful scum buddies would be that obvious, but it sure seems like one of them is scum trying to pocket the other.

[Persivul]

You've hardly been here. How am I supposed to interact with you if you've hardly been here? My vote was rotting on your wagon because of your extended V/LA so it was doing nothing. I voted Drew to avoid a stalling game, but once I was satisfied with his claim I moved it back to you.

Fair enough, but:

I would like it if everyone could comment on my Persivul case.

Now I AM here, and instead of interacting with me and trying to sort me, you're going to others to talk about me.

I will reiterate that you have not been here much so there really has not been much for me to interact with. And how am I supposed to know that you sheep?

You weren't supposed to know that. But, now I've told you about it. Instead of discussing that with me, which you seem to think is the proper way for town to sort, you're getting defensive.

Can't you see where I'd view your charge that I haven't been interacting and sorting as disingenuous coming from you?

[Persivul]

The posts you’re quoting ARE me interacting with you Persivul. Why don’t you see that? I can’t interact with a wall. You hadn’t responded by the time I asked for other people’s opinions on it so I asked for further attention on the case with the hopes that it would help increase activity and also get people to examine you because I really feel like you’re flying under the radar.

What makes you think I am getting defensive? My use of And to start that last sentence?

No, I can’t really see how you see it as disingenuous. Other than the IC stuff this is the first time I’ve felt like you are genuinely interacting and contributing to the game and it’s only coming after I started to put pressure on you.

Consider this post itself. First paragraph defends against the charge you're not interacting. Second paragraph defends against charge that you're being defensive. Third paragraph defends against charge of being disingenuous.

Regarding the last sentence, did you miss this?

I hate to make excuses, but:
- I just had a lylo game finish
- The game I'm modding just ended phase
- I'm going camping later today and won't be back until sometime Sunday

I have every intention of catching up when I get back and participating live well before end of phase. Thanks!

mod: VLA until Sun 8.4

Noted.
-Kor

You're right, I hadn't been putting much time into this game. I explained why a long time ago. You can check the first two things yourself as the games are now complete. I pay a lot more attention to the game where I'm scum in a difficult lylo, than to a game where I'm town on D1/D2. Also go look at Mini 2091 The Purge. I modded that game. Over a couple days I had: one player urging others to post from a mason thread into game thread; one player posting the HOME TOWN of another player in the game thread; and one player SENDING A PM to another player. It was a shit show and took a lot of my time to straighten out. It's all in the game if you don't believe me.

So, now you think I'm "genuinely interacting and contributing to the game," and you know why that I'm only doing so now.

[Persivul]

Can't speak for him, but like I said I thought he saw my crumbs and unvoted me. Me surviving the night, and him not blindly jumping on my wagon led me to believe he is not scum. But I do admit some of this was based off me believing he saw my crumbs.

When you're town, do you go hunting for deep crumbs like those? I know I don't.

[Persivul]

Like, what happened to your Philammon (Rick Dalton) scum read?

At the end of yesterDay, he was your second strongest scum read behind Thespio. You have completely ignored that slot toDay. Are you still scum reading him, are you not scum reading him? Why haven't you said anything about him, to him, or generally tried to even sort him?

First, THIS is sorting interaction, as opposed to defensiveness.

Second...Rick replaced in, and so far he's pretty obvtown. Do you disagree? Do you think he's a high priority sort at the moment? I think you and your interactions with Drew are much higher priority at this point.

I went through your posts to see what your activity flow has been and it is pretty weird.

Yeah, I talk about activity levels when I'm scum, too. Fact is that other games and real life happen. There's a reason we have long phases and 2-day activity timers here. Sometimes inactivity/catchups works for people's schedules.

VOTE: gobble

[Persivul]

I’ve already said I think Gobb/doc is scum.

Do you mean both, or one of? Cause I don't think they're s/s.

[Persivul]

Well fuck, in that case I'm gonna have to make an hourly activity chart on you.

[Persivul]

James, I think that scum benefit more from tunnels. It allows them to have a lot of content without actually doing anything. In my opinion, it also allows scum to act wantonly around claim/hammer time since they can act more brazenly when believing a claim or not. Tunnels are distracting and sap the town of energy, time, and focus.

So you're tunneling me because...you're scum?

[Persivul]

In general, if a wagon has trouble getting to L-1 or L-0 it is because it might be scum not bussing. That was what I was referencing with "guess I was right". The game was stalling so I put you at L-1 so we would at least have new information in your claim to evaluate.

Hold it. You put him at L-1 not because you thought he was scum and should be lynched, but because you wanted to get a claim out of him? So, now we'll likely lose a doc because "we would at least have new information"?

[Persivul]

I'm not tunneling on you,

Actually I agree, as technically tunneling can only be done by town. But, if town, yes, you're tunneling. What else is the activity chart? Is that something you do in general? Who else have you done it for?

[Persivul]

Yes and I would rather lose the doctor to a NK than to a mislynch. I think what I did there is the correct play 100 times over since everyone seemed to give up and just want his death.

Except he wouldn't have been in imminent danger of a mislynch

if you hadn't put him at L-1 in the first place

. The wagon might have dissolved, and the presumed doc wouldn't be outed.

This is the first time I've done an activity chart, I wanted something to visualize what I was feeling about you.

And if you're town that's conf bias, aka tunneling. For scum, activity levels are always an easy push. Now that I'm here, you know you don't have that going forward, so you just cast shade by showing...I'm not even sure what you think you're showing, actually. Since you've never done it before, you have no idea if that pattern is scummy in general, or for me in particular. If you had come in and said you'd done the same for my past 10 games, there's a clear difference between my town and scum games, and this is my scum pattern, that might have been something. Or if you had done it for many people over a number of games and found it to generally be a scum pattern, that would be weaker, but still something. But coming in and doing it once, for a player who had previously noted that he had outside issues preventing him from posting as much as he would like? That's scum under pressure trying anything to build a counter wagon to his own.

[Persivul]

UNVOTE:

[Persivul]

VOTE: Sakura

Fish, you around? Help me start this, or at least unvote.

[Persivul]

I don't like the way you got onto gob's wagon.

[Persivul]

So you dont like me sheeping rick?

Not after you were actively interacting with Drew and pushing him. Seems like you should have done the same with gob before voting him, or done some general probing to find a new target. You slid onto gob really easily. You can point out that I've done some sheeping myself, and I have. Difference is that as more information comes in (and I'm just here to play), I do less sheeping. You went the other way - from actively sorting Drew, to sheeping on gob.

[Persivul]

I am the vigilante. I did not crumb because I considered any of my shots would be proof in themselves. I did not shoot last night because I did not have a strong enough feel about anyone in the game. I will be shooting tonight, if I am able. I probably should have crumbed now that I am going to get roleblocked until I die.

I can't say I like this at all.

You openly softed a PR, but that doesn't mean much. However, I had been relying on my familiarity with C9++, until I got time earlier today to read the CK wiki page. There I noticed:

I = {Cop OR Tracker} (50/50 chance of either, the same is true for all "OR" options)

II = {Cop OR Tracker}, {1-Shot Cop OR 1-Shot Tracker}

In C9, cop starts at 1-shot, then progresses to full. This is different. With chem's claim, that means that there's a full cop or tracker. It made me think of your post:

hi I'm the 1-shot tracker, got a no visits result last night on Sakura

k bye

Why would you claim this?

I took this to indicate that you're the full cop or tracker, and you were irritated that chem's claim let scum know that one of those is in the game. Having gone this far, I scanned for crumbs, and found this:

I had a fever dream last night. In that dream I was arrested. That was not good. Not good at all.

A completely out of context post with a cop theme. I also considered that a couple of us noticed that you were scum reading Drew D1, but did a reversal D2. So, you investigated a scum read N1, got an inno, and so the reversal D2. It all seemed to fit, so I unvoted.

Looking at the claims:
Vig - at least KK, and at least a PGO or Vengeful in addition
1X tracker - exactly II
Doc - at least P
IC - at least M

So, at least 6 letters, which means a 50% chance that scum have a RB, and if not, they have a JOAT with 1X RB

There's no town motivation to claim an active role knowing that there's a 50% chance it can be blocked indefinitely. OTOH, if you're scum, you now have a claim out there which can't be disproven until a RB or JOAT flips, and if you're that person anyway, you lose nothing.

[Persivul]

oof, another self resolving claim. ok

No, it doesn't self resolve, because now that he's claimed, he can just say that there were no extra kills due to the RB.

Also note that for an SK, a N1 no kill gambit (or being blocked) followed by a vig claim is an interesting gambit.

[Persivul]

I generally don't like to ask for claims (and in fact took a risk trying to protect what I thought gob was), but in this case, I think that if there's a vengeful or PGO, they should consider claiming, as that would support gob's claim.

[Persivul]

You thought I was a cop this entire time and still voted me?

Of course not. As I said:

I got time

earlier today

to read the CK wiki page. There I noticed: etc.

Once I was convinced you were cop, I unvoted, asked fish to do so as well since he was recently online and might still be, and tried to get a wagon going on Hana, who had pinged me with the vote (and who now very easily sheeped you onto my wagon). I did everything I could to derail your wagon without yelling "He's a cop."

[Persivul]

Nah. Cop is even less confirmable than vigilante, I don’t know why you would somehow believe cop more than a vig.

Cop makes sense due to: your reaction to chem's claim, plus your reversal on reading drew, plus your cop-themed dream post.

The vig claim is sketchy af because: you claimed it unnecessarily when your wagon was declining, and in the same post you pointed out that the possibility of RB made it unverifiable.

[Persivul]

Your play makes no sense from any town perspective. You lambast me for putting Drew at L-1, then this entire time think that I am a cop and still vote me. Yeah no.

No, as soon as I thought you were cop, I unvoted so you wouldn't need to claim. Scum motivation is to get claims.

Yet, you claimed anyway, completely unnecessarily. If:
- I'm vig
- I'm sure you're scum, and
- There's a good chance scum have a RB,

The last thing I'm doing is claiming.

[Persivul]

What are all the claims rn, my gut tells me the setup isn't looking right here

What are all the claims rn, my gut tells me the setup isn't looking right here

Chemist - 1 shot tracker
Turkey - Vig
Doctor - Doctor(lol)

Ok, thought there were more rn
PEdit: Persivul said it was trying to direct votes away from Turkey because Persivul thought Turkey was cop @drew

1. There's also IC.
2. The 1X tracker if true means there must also be a full cop or tracker, but that hasn't been claimed yet
3. The vig if true means there must also be 1X PGO or a vengeful, but that hasn't been claimed yet

The claims so far are analogous to flipping a coin 7 times, and getting tails 6 times.

[Persivul]

tbh, i actually havent been paying attention to any sort of crumbs or anything about people hinting towards their PRs, I feel like that's only useful as scum, I only pay attention to potential investigation crumbs after someone dies. Then persivul comes right at me with the idea that "OMG HE'S OBVIOUSLY CRUMBING COP, YOU'RE SCUM THAT SAW THE CRUMB AND WANT HIM TO CLAIM" or something.

No, I made no mention that you should have seem his crumbs. Why the big loud misrep?

[Persivul]

In a past run of C9++ davesaz made a deep run doing this iirc

In C9++, it's easier to do, because a vig can exist by itself.

In this setup, a vig means there must also be a 1X PGO or Vengeful.

We have a simple mechanical solve on gobble that does no harm to us.

These people haven't claimed:
Gamma Emerald
Skygazer
James Braffin
Sakura Hana
Persivul
Rick Dalton
Formerfish

Every one of these should claim whether they are or are not PGO/Vengeful.

If claiming positively, don't specify which one you are.

If no one claims PGO/Vengeful, then gobble is a SK pulling a vig gambit.

If someone does claim PGO/Vengeful, then
- that person and gobble are near conftown, as a 2-scum gambit is very highly unlikely
- scum don't know if the claimant is PGO or vengeful, so they don't know if the person is safe to kill - no harm done.

I am NOT PGO/Vengeful.

Everyone on the list should claim one way or the other, or explain why this plan does more harm than good.

Gamma Emerald
Skygazer
James Braffin
Sakura Hana
Rick Dalton
Formerfish

[Persivul]

What's wrong with my analysis?

[Persivul]

Thinking about it

I do feel strongly about mass claim but

towns are usually like lynch that with fire. I think that scum also would not have had enough time to crumb a specific role so I think we are more likely to catch them off guard

Pgo/vengeful + cop/tracker + Spangled + Chemist + me + Drew + Sakura leaves very little room for scum to fakeclaim or even maneuver. Although if Drew is scum this whole plan is shot to more risky, but I think he is more likely to be town

I take back the mass claim idea.

Persivul just claimed scum with that logic. I was worried he was a PR but he isn’t based off that reaction.

That moment when you realize you fucked up your fakeclaim.

[Persivul]

You’re freaking out if I am SK or not which mafia are more concerned about than town

Again, what's wrong with my analysis?

If you're telling the truth, a PGO/Vengeful claim pretty much conftowns you. It doesn't do significant damage to the pgo/vengeful because: scum don't know which they are; and, with IC, doc, cop, and vig in play, pgo/vengeful is way down the list of scum's concerns.

If you were really vig, you'd welcome being confirmed by the claim.

On another note - why did you claim when I was actively defusing your wagon?

[Persivul]

I took it back because I don’t want the cop or tracker to claim

I agree there.

and claiming the vengeful or PGO narrows that pool down even more plus can actually freely allow mafia to RB hunt for it without the downside of the potential PGO

Two more conftowns narrows the scum pool down so much that, between lynches and your vig shots, it's probably auto win for town.

[Persivul]

I can be confirmed by my shot or by your red flip, but keep saying that

Neither green nor red flips confirm you. SK is against both factions.

[Persivul]

What’s weird is you haven’t really denied being scum

That's not weird, that's normal. People generally don't go about saying "I'm town" or "I'm not scum."

[Persivul]

And hell, if they don’t believe it down the road

they can string me but not before you buddy boy

Literal scum claim

So they can string me up after I really don’t care. As long as they flip your mafia behind they can do whatever they want with me regardless of whether or not they believe my claim. I will at least have done my job and set them down the right path.

Persivul, is it still called tunneling if a townie does it to a mafia?

Funny thing is that if you hadn't claimed unnecessarily, you could simply shoot me tonight.

Why did you claim while I was defusing your wagon?

[Persivul]

We’re not lynching the vig claim

We make them shoot consensus targets or die, and if they’re scum they’ll be mechanically outed by flips

He can be mechanically outed - or cleared - right now, via pgo/venge claims.

[Persivul]

Why did you claim, thereby potentially being blocked?

[Persivul]

Remaining to claim:

Gamma Emerald
Skygazer
James Braffin
Rick Dalton
Formerfish

[Persivul]

Remaining to claim:

Gamma Emerald
Skygazer
Rick Dalton
Formerfish

[Persivul]

Remaining to claim:

Skygazer
Rick Dalton
Formerfish

[Persivul]

Just need to hear from Rick and fish.

[Persivul]

Persivul is scum for going hard at this and not scumhunting else where

I started the day on Drew. As he continued talking, he seemed townier, so I left his wagon. Then I got on you. When I (incorrectly) determined that you were cop, I left you, and pushed Hana. If you would have left well enough alone, I would have had your back until the real cop/tracker flipped or claimed (and likely still be with you in the case of a claim). Instead, you made a stupid fakeclaim, and I ran it down. I get that you're butthurt over that, but your narrative that I haven't scumhunted elsewhere is demonstrably false.

Why did you claim vig anyway?

VOTE: gobble

[Persivul]

You know what the initial big claim post I think makes it more likely Gobb is SK over scum
VOTE: SkyG
I guess go on with this one? Also wdym lying about "one of the three"?

Wow, that's one of the most fucked-up votes I've ever seen.

[Persivul]

Like I said I am more than happy to leash and generally make scum’s lives miserable

That was slightly credible at first, but when you called out Gamma as a town PR, you lost that credibility. You're just fucking with everyone because you're mad. It's pretty childish.

[Persivul]

Good morning from beautiful garden city beach sc. Sun just peaked above the horizon clouds and is shining off the ocean. Soft waves are lapping up on shore. Life is good!

Regarding the setup: It's complex but it's not rocket surgery. If all our claims are true we're either in 3T, or in 1T with two unclaimed letters.

I want to ISO everyone before doing much more, but one question first: Gamma, what was with 1785?

[Persivul]

Btw there's no way both our claims are real

Actually there is - if chem's claim is false. I don't think that's the case, but it should be put out there.

[Persivul]

VOTE: james

can we do this

Sure, if you can provide a better reason than inactivity.

Does this come from a cop?

I'm missing the connection. Can you explain?

[Persivul]

You know what the initial big claim post I think makes it more likely Gobb is SK over scum
VOTE: SkyG
I guess go on with this one? Also wdym lying about "one of the three"?

Out of idle curiosity, how does THIS come from cop?

Why wouldn't it? Cops play the day game too.

But as already asked I would like Gamma to explain this, and why he didn't pick up with it at the beginning of today.

[Persivul]

Meanwhile James' claim comes at a time when he and 2 others have been PoE'd out so it could be a hail mary kind of claim, I'll need to look at ISOs more.

Scum are all alive and being in a PoE pool isn't high pressure. Why would he use a hail mary? Also why don't you note that his claim came shortly after Gamma claimed? That's the typical time for a CC.

I get that gamma crumbed an inno beginning of D2 and that's strong in his favor, but this needs to be considered more carefully.

[Persivul]

And where is your crumb, because I can’t see it. All I see is you trolling.

Once gob called him out I looked for a crumb, and it's plain as day. Like REALLY obvious.

[Persivul]

Pers I’ve been kinda ignoring. He strikes me as the kind of guy who just screws around as either alignment. I need to ISO him though.

Does a cop talk like this about their green check?

Yeah, that seems pretty unlikely.

[Persivul]

Cop/tracker is Gamma by the way

Also since Gob is a FUCKING MORON I might as well claim. Yes I am cop and I got Sakura town n1. Got no result last night on Persivul which is why I'm so pissed at Gob.

Also this doesnt look like a fake reaction.

That wasn't his initial reaction. He initially said he'd neither confirm nor deny it. This came after he had a night phase to consider it.

Even gob noticed Gamma was an investigative of some sort.

What do you mean by "even gob"? No one has more incentive to PR hunt than an SK.

[Persivul]

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

No, if scum have an RB they could just block there and kill elsewhere. The NK proves nothing.

[Persivul]

Well doesnt matter what James screams or doesnt scream,

Where is he screaming?

[Persivul]

The outed doctor? Wow, shocker that scum killed the outed PR instead of the “cop.” You ALWAYS kill informed town first. Gamma says that he got roleblocked and scum killed doctor. But that’s idiotic on scum’s part. Why would they not roleblock the doctor and kill a cop if they thought they knew where it was?

It makes no difference which one they block and which one they kill.

[Persivul]

And you trying to pass it off as Gamma being alive being proof that Gamma is scum just goes to show your scum plan like an open book.
And it also shows that you got no actual reasoning to back up you being a cop over Gamma.

You're arguing that this is a scum plan, and it's a bad plan. Does it make sense that after talking with two other scum overnight, they'd come out with this plan? IF gamma claims cop, THEN you CC him, even though we know you didn't lay crumbs. That of course doesn't prove anything, because people do dumb shit all the time.

[Persivul]

Oh and using NKA as an Absolute.

Oh and if he was a real cop he wouldnt forget about the 1S tracker.

What's an unconfirmed 1X tracker got to do with it?

[Persivul]

Also I freaking breadsliced d2 with my "secret reasons to trust Sakura". Following Gob's derp how does that slip by?

Why did you make such an obvious crumb? Weren't you afraid that scum would be onto you, especially after the 1X tracker claim?

Frankly considering the crumb and then this:

Like I'm not confirming or denying it but it's anti town so to do that after your "confession" makes no sense if you're trying to townside in your last efforts.

I thought you might be VT trying to draw the NK.

[Persivul]

And where is your crumb, because I can’t see it. All I see is you trolling.

Once gob called him out I looked for a crumb, and it's plain as day. Like REALLY obvious.

I was looking at d1, not d2. :p I see it now, but my point stands.

No, your point doesn't stand. Gamma crumbed an inno and that's what good cops are supposed to do. I get that it's possible you're cop and didn't feel comfortable doing it. It took me a few times roling cop before I did so. But truth is the crumb appears real, and that's in his favor. That said, in my first game here the scum IC dropped crumbs for all the PRs, so I don't put a lot of stock in them.

[Persivul]

I’m going to be honest, that is the DUMBEST thing I’ve ever heard. As I’ve said before, scum always kills informed town. If they really had thought Gamma was the cop, they would have shot there. If that was actually what scum was thinking, someone was not being smart, to put it kindly, and neither was their partners.

That's ridiculous. If scum have a full RB, it makes no difference whether they block doc and kill cop, or block cop and kill doc. Not one bit.

[Persivul]

Why not?

Because either way you end up with one person dead and no investigation performed.

[Persivul]

What did you think needed explaining in that post?

Why did you vote sky? I don't see a reasonable foundation for you to vote her in that gamestate.

What did you mean by "go on with" it? There hadn't been a sky wagon going.

[Persivul]

I meant "go on with" as in "go on with why Sky is scum". And I voted Sky because I wanted to leash Gob.

What does "leash Gob" mean? Terminology on this site changes so frequently I can't keep up with it.

[Persivul]

No. Me and James both claimed full cop, not one shot.

If chem's claim is false (and again, I'm not charging that it is), then two cops is possible. It's possible in III or above.

[Persivul]

Because there was a chance that Gamma didn't flip cop

^ This. It's better to block a suspicion and kill a claim than vice versa.

[Persivul]

Btw there's no way both our claims are real

Actually there is - if chem's claim is false. I don't think that's the case, but it should be put out there.

That is not how it works

Yes, it is. It's not likely, but if you're lying, then we could be in III or higher, in which two full cops is a possibility. We could test it by having people claim "not neapolitan or gunsmith," but I don't think that's optimal rn.

[Persivul]

How insane would it be if I proposed a lynch outside of the cop claims

Pretty insane. I've pointed out that if you're lying, two cops are possible. But, I've only done that because I don't want false info out there, not because I really think that's the case. We need to lynch in the cop claims today.

[Persivul]

i wanna hammer james tbh

That could probably be arranged...

[Persivul]

yes i specifically want the hammer

i've wanted to lynch james since yesterday and i'll quicklynch anyone who steals the hammer from me tbh

I'm prepared to vote James. I can understand a newbie not knowing how to crumb innos properly and so not doing it. I didn't crumb innos my first couple of times. But, I don't buy that he was attempting an inno crumb on me in 1406, and that post makes no sense otherwise. That's pretty much a smoking gun (good work by sakura pointing that out).

That said, a couple more days of talk before the lynch wouldn't hurt.

[Persivul]

If there were two cops the Neo/Gunsmith would’ve CCed me

Probably. That's part of why I don't find that scenario likely.

[Persivul]

Sure, I dont mind talking, what would you like to talk about? Is it related to the PoE i proposed at the start of the day?

Nothing in particular, and not to you in particular. For one thing, I don't like the idea of fish coasting through a day on VLA.

[Persivul]

It's a CC situation, not really much to be said

Not with that attitude, but fine. I suppose night means more time at the beach.
VOTE: James

L-1

[Persivul]

Thanks to A50 for filling in. I was at the beach and couldn't justify that much time at the computer.

[Persivul]

I only wish I was town to reap the benefits of my perfect solve. ;_;

Solve, shmolve. Town won. Scum lost. You lost. Solves are meaningless if you can't get the right kills.