Open 70 - Two of Four (b9) (Game Over!) before 595

[alvinz95]

THERE IS MY PRETTY USELESS ANALYSIS OF ARMLX WHICH I LITERALLY GOT NOTHING.

So why did you post the PBPA if you got nothing from it? It's just a waste of space and it means things are going to get lost in the signal:noise ratio later. You're simply trying to look like you're contributing usefully to avoid being called out by the rest of us and you're posting "hey I'm here guys" messages to avoid being prodded by the mod.

All in all I think those that have mentioned the fact that you're actively trying to lay low in this game are 100% on the mark.

FoS: alvinz95

Well, I attempted to get some scumtells, but when going through it, I got nothing. I plan on investigating someone else today.

[Grimmy]

Note: I will be unavailable for a week after next monday. I added this to my sig.

Grimmy

[alvinz95]

I'm sorry guys if it seems like I'm just posting to get stuff on. At the start of this game, I was juggling about 5 games. I never really got into the mood of this game. I don't feel connected with anything now. This is why I shall

request replacement.

[skitzer]

alvinz95 will be replaced. And a note for those who are V/LA: I will probably replace you if you are not going to have access it all, so that this game can sustain a reasonable pace.

[farside22]

alvinz95 will be replaced. And a note for those who are V/LA: I will probably replace you if you are not going to have access it all, so that this game can sustain a reasonable pace.

Thank goodness!

Shadowgirls comments about Max are odd, but not scummy. Too many games can make you loss track of who is what. Actually as much as Alvinz didn't help that much reading dcorbe and Armix I feel like there is something there I missed before. As much as Armix beat me up for not keeping my vote on dcorbe I wonder if it wasn't bussing.

unvote:
vote: Armix

[armlx]

As much as Armix beat me up for not keeping my vote on dcorbe I wonder if it wasn't bussing.

What does this mean?

[farside22]

As much as Armix beat me up for not keeping my vote on dcorbe I wonder if it wasn't bussing.

What does this mean?

You were arguing with me about my unvote on dcorbe. I think you two may be scum parnters and I do believe you to be the type of person to buss your scum partner.

[armlx]

You were arguing with me about my unvote on dcorbe. I think you two may be scum parnters and I do believe you to be the type of person to buss your scum partner.

Ok. I understand now.

1) I'm pretty sure on meta reasons dcorbe is town this game, or at the least his actions are not scum tells.

2) Do you assume I'm scum because you assume dcorbe is scum and I was bussing him, or do you assume Dcorbe is scum b/c you think I'm scum and my behavior looks way too much like bussing in your opinion for him to be town? There is a different order to correctly attack in both as its an A then B scenario either way.

3) Is this assumption all you have right now?

[skitzer]

Vote Count 4 of Day 2

(2) Grimmy (armlx, dcorbe)
(1) alvinz95* (Avinyl)
(1) armlx (farside22)
(0) ShadowGirl
(0) Avinyl
(0) dcorbe
(0) farside22

(3) Not Voting (alvinz95, Grimmy, ShadowGirl)

With

7

alive, it takes

4

to lynch!

*being replaced.

[Grimmy]

ill chime in on monday. Hopefully we will have an alvinz replacement by then.
Im also hopeful I wont be missed the one week im gone.

Grimmy
wonders is there will be a game to come back to.

[farside22]

You were arguing with me about my unvote on dcorbe. I think you two may be scum parnters and I do believe you to be the type of person to buss your scum partner.

Ok. I understand now.

1) I'm pretty sure on meta reasons dcorbe is town this game, or at the least his actions are not scum tells.

2) Do you assume I'm scum because you assume dcorbe is scum and I was bussing him, or do you assume Dcorbe is scum b/c you think I'm scum and my behavior looks way too much like bussing in your opinion for him to be town? There is a different order to correctly attack in both as its an A then B scenario either way.

3) Is this assumption all you have right now?

1) So far I haven't seen dcorbe come up scum in a game. He seems like a person who usually gets lynched do to his attitude (all meta game reads mind you)
2) I assume you more likely scum then dcorbe, but it was dcorbe's defense of you against alvinz that clicked my brain. After the way you kept on saying how scummy he was then saying it wasn't worth it 2 pages later also clicked my brain.
3) Your hammer on Max also seems off. I've seen you hesitate and talk things out before voting someone and I've seen you act aggressively. Somehow that hammer just seemed a bit opportunist.

[dcorbe]

2) I assume you more likely scum then dcorbe, but it was dcorbe's defense of you against alvinz that clicked my brain. After the way you kept on saying how scummy he was then saying it wasn't worth it 2 pages later also clicked my brain.

It wasn't running defense on armix, I was running offesne on alvinz for a completely useless post, because it seems like he's playing to stay alive and not doing any real scum hunting but rather making himself look busy here.

We'll see what his replacement has to say.

[armlx]

1) So far I haven't seen dcorbe come up scum in a game. He seems like a person who usually gets lynched do to his attitude (all meta game reads mind you)

I concur with this. So what reason do you have to suspect dcorbe.

2) I assume you more likely scum then dcorbe, but it was dcorbe's defense of you against alvinz that clicked my brain. After the way you kept on saying how scummy he was then saying it wasn't worth it 2 pages later also clicked my brain.

The point is we have no reason to trust a townie claim in this game as anything, and thus there was no reason for the lynch to be stopped. You stopping it was very odd to say the least, hence the reason I also hopped off as I assumed you were scum trying to wash your hands of a townie lynch. Then max happened and what not.

I have since then come to realize point 1, meaning the entire dcorbe wagon D1 was not based on correct analysis.

Do you have other reasons to suspect I am scum?

3) Your hammer on Max also seems off. I've seen you hesitate and talk things out before voting someone and I've seen you act aggressively. Somehow that hammer just seemed a bit opportunist.

See above. Townie claim, scummy behavior, etc. Once someone townie claims in that situation, there is nothing to continue to discuss. See D1 of Elemental Mafia for an example of me using this.

[skitzer]

LlamaFluff replaces alvinz95.

[LlamaFluff]

Hey all, im replacing alvinz. Im doing a reread right now, I should have my thoughts and a vote in a few hours

[LlamaFluff]

After a reread I am going to start by doing a

vote ShadowGirl

who was originally jtdyer

Vote: dcorbe

. Sorry dude, your explanation seemed lacking to me. Randomness isn't a bad idea, but switching between all these people to get them to post, when some of them are posting, doesn't make the most sense.

A vote based purely on a playstyle conflict. This vote is because dcorbe happens to be changing his vote a lot in the pregame phase. There is nothing wrong with doing this and jtyder even concludes that this action is not scummy, but it just doesn’t make any sense. There is a difference there.

A little bit later

Unvote

. Not feeling the dcorbe scuminess for now, but not sure about farside22. I'll do a reread on her and a couple other people tomorrow.

After this unvote and reread promise, blonde votes jtyder and asks for elaboration on the feeling of dcorbe no longer being scummy. I never found an answer from jtyder for the change of heart over dcorbe. It just happened.

unvote

i dont know num's reasons for the vote so there is no reason for me to stick with it.

Max, you said you have evidence and were waiting for more people to respond. We are here, so what info do you have?

Vote Max

. You never really responded to this. Maybe you missed it, and if so, here it is again. There's nothing wrong with gut feeling, but you probably aren't going to convince someone to vote with just gut feeling.

Hypocritical much? You never responded to your gut feeling of dcorbe being town suddenly when it was asked by blonde. How is max any different?

Hi guys. A couple thoughts. As far as farside22, I don't see the "tantrum" as scummy so much. I think she was just frustrated with the way armlx was playing, and an argument got a little heated and carried on...that happens in most games of Mafia, at least the ones I've played. A thought about Max, although this could be WIFOM.

If Max doesn't claim, will you guys who aren't voting do so before the June 9th deadline, or will we go into a no lynch for D2?

It seems to me that Max could be drawing it out, as was mentioned before;

I think Max is scum

, and so its possible that some of his scum buddies aren't voting, and hoping to send this into a no lynch as well. So I'm curious what will happen in the next two and a half days.

This post I didn’t like, mainly due to this history of max-jtyder. The main reason I ever found for the vote of max from jtyder was his not answering a question directed at him. Which seems to be very weak reasoning at casting a vote, and even more being sure that Max is scum, let alone using the threat of a no lynch to draw a quick hammer from town.

After this jtyder got replaced

Now in ShadowGirls first big analysis post, there are only two people mentioned, dcorbe, which I find interesting given how jtyder did a quick and unexplained “townie read” on him. Also there is mention of farside, for mostly being emotional, which again seems really unusual because emotional isn’t indicative of alignment. No vote was included on this first post.

In the second analysis post, the scum from SG are dcorbe, Max (?!) and Armix. Dcorbe again is interesting to me for previous reasons, max is just stupid and I don’t know what to make of that, and then armix for a quick hammer, which is a much more sensical suspicion to me. No vote again from SG. Farside also has disappeard from this list, making me wonder why she was included on the first post

When challenged on the fact that Max was the D1 lynch, SG throws in alvinz as a suspicion, because he is lurking, and that’s really all the case that got built up there.

I would like to see a vote from SG instead of just suspicions here.

@farside/armix – I have a game where dcorbe flipped scum that I can point you at, but it is still in progress

[armlx]

@farside/armix – I have a game where dcorbe flipped scum that I can point you at, but it is still in progress

I do as well, though its probably a flawed example as he replaced in at L-1 late game (TinVision's new C9). However, what I also have is a game where a lynched Dcorbe flipped town with similar behavior (ongoing), which sorta nullifies his actions.

[dcorbe]

@farside/armix – I have a game where dcorbe flipped scum that I can point you at, but it is still in progress

I do as well, though its probably a flawed example as he replaced in at L-1 late game (TinVision's new C9). However, what I also have is a game where a lynched Dcorbe flipped town with similar behavior (ongoing), which sorta nullifies his actions.

I know which games you and LlamaFluff are talking about and I've taken lessons away from both of them. This is the first official game I ever joined and it even got started before my newbie game did, so I made a hell of a lot of mistakes here early on.

If you guys want to lynch me for those mistakes, then I probably deserve it, meta reads aside.

I have preached in other running games that meta reads are a horrible way to build a case on someone and I still believe that. By that notion, inverse is also true: meta defenses don't amount to shit.

The point of lynching someone on policy, because of their behavior or because they're just plain stupid is to correct that behavior and hopefully turn him or her into a more effective player in the future.

[armlx]

I have preached in other running games that meta reads are a horrible way to build a case on someone and I still believe that. By that notion, inverse is also true: meta defenses don't amount to shit.

Why?

[LlamaFluff]

Max Interactions starting pg-3

Avinyl – FoS/OMGUS (51)
Comment (169)

Right now, I am suspicious of
1) Max.

Comment (180)

I don't think the fact that Max hasn't been hammered yet suggests that scum are on the wagon already, as lynching Max without a claim now would be incredibly suspicious

Farside – vote (109)

pushing for a lynch on someone without reason, looking to join a BW with false reasoning.

Vote (146)

unvote:
vote: Max

comment (152)

Overall I get scummy vibes from him.

Armix – FoS/for voting on gut (110)
Comment (166)

I endorse a Max lynch now. He has been actively scummy as opposed to subtlely as I have accused dcorbe and farside of.

Hammer vote (189)

Yeah, nothing convincing.

Vote Max

Hammah time.

Dcorbe – FoS/weak reasoning/vote hopping (111)
Vote (167)

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Max

because everything you've posted so far has been mostly 1-liners not much in the way of useful responses.

Unvote to allow claim (178)
Vote (188)

@Max: Part of the point of getting you to claim was to explain to us why we shouldn't lynch you.

Confirm Vote: Max

We're barely 9 pages into D1 here so there's a good chance we're wrong, but if he's simply not going to mount a defense here, I wouldn't blame someone for dropping the hammer.

Jtyder – vote (123)

You never really responded to this. Maybe you missed it, and if so, here it is again. There's nothing wrong with gut feeling, but you probably aren't going to convince someone to vote with just gut feeling.

Grimy – when pushed by Blonde (155)

Max is setting off all sorts of alarms. States he has a reason and proof of someone's guilt, then drops it and changes it to a gut feeling. When asked, he states that he doesnt have evidence anymore. It seems like he was getting ready to hammer a townie that everyone was going to bandwagon, and when that changed, he silently lost the "evidence" arguement and went with another one. (54% lynch-o-meter)

HEAVY FINGER OF SUSPICION: Max

----

Ok, these were all the major things; votes, FoS and comments I found relevant, that were directed at Max during day one. These are some conclusions of people that to me come off as scummy from this day.

Grimmy – You put Max at a heavy FoS post 155, and never comment on his scumminess level again for the day, although you do call armix on supporting a lynch without a vote. You seemed to take the same course of action, just never voted.

Jtyder – Voted Max on weak reasonings at early wagon stage, followed by a disappearing act.

Armix – I didn’t like your hammer too much, but you had stated past suspicions of Max.

Avinyl – I have some alarm bells set off from you. In the early stage, you were arguing with Max over his suspicion of you, and you eventually threw on what apparently was an OMGUS FoS. A *lot* later, you say Max has become your top suspect, without any attached reasoning.

I also find your 180 really suspicious. You claim that scum is already voting for Max, two questions come from this first – How do you know this? But more importantly – Who was the scum on the wagon, and why did you do nothing to stop it?

Also unrelated to Max but relevant to Avinyl – How did you go from

Alvinz95

: Slightly lurkerish. No idea of his alignment.

To

Vote: alvinz95

. His posts are too short and says nearly nothing.

I am not sure why you decided to stick the vote here, in 214 you had dcorbe as vaguely suspect and farside as half-scum. Why the vote on the “no idea of alignment” player?

I am going to

unvote
Vote Avinyl

I still think ShadowGirl is a decent lynch, but a reread of the Max happenings makes me like a Avinyl lynch a little bit better.

---

And since its becoming a topic, my meta view stands as: It is a useful tool to further a case or suspicions on a player. However meta should not be the primary reason for a suspicion, more of a supplementary reason.

[farside22]

First I think doing meta of someone is null. Especiallly a newbie as they can change and grow as they learn things on this site. Which is why dcorbe is not in the clear for me and Armix thinking it should be used is telling to me.
Also welcome Lama it's nice to have an active player right now.
I was hoping to hear more from Shadowgirl do to jtd lack of play. I hadn't thought about Avinyl as he has been here more then others this game.
My problem is that alvinz tried to make a case. I think dcorbe attack on him was shaddy at best. It was obvious that alvinz was a newb trying to work things out.
My 2 suspects are still
Armix
dcorbe
Shadowgirl

[dcorbe]

I have preached in other running games that meta reads are a horrible way to build a case on someone and I still believe that. By that notion, inverse is also true: meta defenses don't amount to shit.

Why?

I went on to explain why if you would have kept reading.

[dcorbe]

My problem is that alvinz tried to make a case. I think dcorbe attack on him was shaddy at best. It was obvious that alvinz was a newb trying to work things out.
My

2

suspects are still
Armix (1)
dcorbe (2)
Shadowgirl (3)

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.

This goes back in part to my comments on metas. If a meta defense doesn't hold up then a clueless noob defense shouldn't hold up either. At any rate you don't seem to cutting me the same slack as you're cutting alivnz and he's been a member of the site a lot longer than I have.

I've seen people on MS who have signed up aftrer alvinz who seem to have a much better grip on the game; however, since replacing in LlamaFluff has done a much better job at holding up his role than alvinz has so I'm going to reserve judgement until later.

[armlx]

First I think doing meta of someone is null.

This is where we will have to differ.

What are your thoughts of Grimmy by the way.

[farside22]

My problem is that alvinz tried to make a case. I think dcorbe attack on him was shaddy at best. It was obvious that alvinz was a newb trying to work things out.
My

2

suspects are still
Armix (1)
dcorbe (2)
Shadowgirl (3)

I couldn't possibly disagree with you more.

This goes back in part to my comments on metas. If a meta defense doesn't hold up then a clueless noob defense shouldn't hold up either. At any rate you don't seem to cutting me the same slack as you're cutting alivnz and he's been a member of the site a lot longer than I have.

I've seen people on MS who have signed up aftrer alvinz who seem to have a much better grip on the game; however, since replacing in LlamaFluff has done a much better job at holding up his role than alvinz has so I'm going to reserve judgement until later.

Did you read the quote that alivnz found? What were your thoughts and why did you think it was bad?