Mini 2090 CYS: AtmosFEAR of Terrors

[Plum]

Sup

This is a Townhunt setup in a CYA. This is the dream. I am living it.

[Plum]

VOTE: Alisae

[Plum]

Good stuff.

[Plum]

prove it

[Plum]

Yes the meta knowledge is good

thank you

because I don't know/remember anyone else's reputations

[Plum]

I feel bad for GreyICE

On the other hand, I feel good for Lady Lambdadelta

[Plum]

Hm okay sure whatever

Just don't expect to get into the final circle of friendship any time soon

[Plum]

I’ve been working on my Towngame. The rand isn’t hard to beat if you’re *trying* for Town.

> working on towngame

Vote, coward

[Plum]

VOTE: implosion

[Plum]

gj

[Plum]

okay, why do you think its weird

it's literally just "gj" in response to a vote on her

On one hand, 49 makes that post make more sense... on the other hand, I'm confused about thinking about 56

"Good job, voting >>> not voting. Also haha, yes I notice you voted me most proximaly to me telling you to vote."

[Plum]

I didn’t like Plum’s reaction to implosion’s setup spec

This you consider "setup spec"?

[Plum]

"Good job, voting >>> not voting. Also haha, yes I notice you voted me most proximaly to me telling you to vote."

We can only lynch every 12 days. Which means we have a maximum of 4 votes. We need to be very careful with voting here.

1. Are you seriously saying that in a 13 player game with limited opportunities to

lynch

it is appropriate to be extremely cautious with and even limit our early

voting

??
2. We don't even actually win by lynching anyway, though yes, it's a resource. If we were to use five lynches and have five corresponding Nightkills we wouldn't even have 6 players alive to enter the Well of Fears so ???? I don't know what would happen then. Right now I'd guess that we may have fewer than five or even four lynches feasible. And if the Townhunting and key distribution goes well, lynches become less valuable resources.
3. This is your initial contribution to the game??

[Plum]

Okay Pine who is the big bad scum on your wagon then

also no points for saying me

VOTE: Pine

[Plum]

Dude, you're acting like I showed up with a fake nose and mustache, danced a jig, and sang, "Nothing to see here, folks!"

I was effectively

asked.

The scum PT clearly said to each other in N0, "Hey guys, Pine ML first?" "Yeah, easy mode."

Not saying that everyone jumping on me is scum, clearly not...but there's definitely a low-hanging fruit motive to this push.

Alisae
skygazer
GreyICE
Katsuki
Plum

No clue so far, it's too early to have a real readslist. But now that you self-consciously mention it, your vote IS hella scummy, and saying "no points" doesn't make it not opportunistic AF.

You think there was a "low-hanging fruit motive" to your wagon but as for who on your wagon to that point (I didn't vote you until after you made that statement) was scum, all you can offer is a list of everyone voting you and a shrug. Okay.

[Plum]

... it wasn't clear that I was already strongly suspecting Pine? I'll be real: he's very scummy, was before Katsuki got here, continued to be after Katsuki got here, and I don't see a reason to play coy by keeping my vote on another suspect and having my suspects be at 4 votes and 2 votes respectively when I could pressure him as 5th vote on his wagon. Big early wagon generally is an exploitable Town resource.

Notknown and Implo are still issues. I haven't forgotten about them or anything.

[Plum]

Not going to read too much into it right now. Everyone has a special ability that they can use only when they hold the key of a certain color. I'm sure Katsuki's purple key ability is nice and useful for them as whatever alignment they are. I don't have a tone/read off of whether Katsuki would lead with that the way they did as Town vs. scum (vs. third-party).

[Plum]

Merci, Madame!

@TL - got anything else for us, or just sideline stuff?

[Plum]

Are you offering an alternative course of action or a reason not to? Or just sidelining?

[Plum]

Okay, let's be real here. We don't get a flip on the lynch. Townhunting is very very valuable in this setup. Anyone who's claiming to have trouble scumhunting, at least try to complement your efforts with Townhunting.

TL thinks Pine is scummy, thinks the Black Key stuff could be a Townslip, disbelieves one of his posts because, quote, "it has a bad limerick". I don't even. Why. Why this game. And yes, if I have to spell it out for you, I do read TL as pretty scummy.

Skygazer, MariaR need to get in here and post more so I can read you guys more pls.

Hebi-chan, the first time you had the Black Key you did

not

receive it via the post-bracketing method.

GreyICE's reads are good, no surprise.

It's bizarre as hell that Pine gets called out for zero scum hunting in a game that's basically been "Pine is scum, here's some pictures, send me a key, don't ask what keys everyone needs, oh shit there's a black key"

Pine stated with some conviction that scum were driving his early wagon - before I voted him. I've asked him who among the four players voting him at that time seemed like the scum reaching for the "low-hanging fruit" he portrayed himself as. He not only had no idea, he has shown zero interest in probing their motivations or otherwise further developing reads on them. I'm skeptical that he lacks the means and material for scumhunting given that. That's what I got, that's where it stands, I won't harp any more unless someone somehow needs further clarification. This is not intended to reengage Pine when he needs a break to forestall frustration, just clarifying from me that the "lack of scumhunting" accusation here holds weight for me given the circumstances and Pine's own statements.

NotKnown15 needs to start posting now~ also Implo thx

[Plum]

I'd agree if he showed any interest in dipping a toe into the pool, let alone jumping in.

[Plum]

Pine, why do you keep implying that GreyICE's post restriction is faked? And if you do think that, how do you read him?

[Plum]

Oh and D) It doesn’t make sense from a setup perspective to have all of these events, curses, and added shenanigans, but also have one player hobbled the whole game. You’d just use the limerick PR as an event/curse etc

... so what do you make of GreyICE faking this?

[Plum]

Oh and D) It doesn’t make sense from a setup perspective to have all of these events, curses, and added shenanigans, but also have one player hobbled the whole game. You’d just use the limerick PR as an event/curse etc

... so what do you make of GreyICE faking this?

It's incredibly clear what Pine makes of it?
VOTE: Plum

Oh and D) It doesn’t make sense from a setup perspective to have all of these events, curses, and added shenanigans, but also have one player hobbled the whole game. You’d just use the limerick PR as an event/curse etc

... so what do you make of GreyICE faking this?

I think...I dunno. It's probably NAI? Gimmick-y gameplay happens as any alignment. When Aeronaut and I made Caesar Wills It before Civ mafia, we decided to do it before roles and alignments were randed.

Strictly speaking, I think it means Grey decided to dick around, no more, no less. Functionally, it makes him almost impossible to fairly read, and makes questioning or refuting him frustratingly difficult.

I thought you thought it was scummy?

So yeah, actually no I didn't know what side of scummy vs. NAI Pine was going to come down on. And I didn't want to just let it hang so he could teehee at his leisure.

[Plum]

Merci, Madame!

Tbh Hebichan I was going to vote you as a solid Townread, so if you need the Green Key, in my book you can enjoy it to your heart's content.

VOTE: Hebi-chan

There are several other decent choices, Implo is okay.

off the top of my head:

I'd probably hard pass on katsuki (outted lyncher?) and alisae (probs scum/third party??)

I think implo has been very townie

VOTE: implosion

Who needed a green key again? I've had a massive migraine today

pedit: ehhhh i don't like that not known post

Man I'm excited to bring Townreads out in the open and get some consensus-building going there but also I can't wait for regular lynch voting to come back (hopefully?) so we can hash out scummy guys like this one. Also a good substitute for force-replace. Can't say Notknown15 doesn't deserve it.

[Plum]

Oh, yeah, I thought I remembered something about that. You too, huh?

[Plum]

NK is a scummy mess with little information or content to offer, part of the bottom quartile along with TemporalLich and Skygazer. Trying to sort those three by likelihood of being scum right now seems low-utility. But to put it bluntly, we should avoid taking any of them into the Well of Fears.

[Plum]

NK is a scummy mess with little information or content to offer, part of the bottom quartile along with TemporalLich and Skygazer. Trying to sort those three by likelihood of being scum right now seems low-utility. But to put it bluntly, we should avoid taking any of them into the Well of Fears.

Why not toss Maria in that list?

Maria just barely scrapes above the bottom quartile but literally only because she said "GE is Town but don't ask why just yet", which isn't ~content or anything but may (~~~~) be a meaningful contribution down the line (honestly statistically it says a lot more about Gamma's likelihood of being Town than Maria's but still not nothing about Maria's).

[Plum]

Even that is a bit fishy given literally no one has shaded GE all game.

Sure, sure, still can lean alignment indicative (at the very least it semi-locks her into having to claim information later).

Wait, is hebi not a lyncher?

If I had a powerlynch vote, it would be here by the way.

Short version of what do re powerlynching, well, we can't right now. We don't know what happens if we power-Townblock Key vote, but it seems likely that we'll get some public opinion-interaction mechanic after a hammer, just like we got this Green Key giveaway after lynching with time left on the clock. I don't think we

need

to rush it but it shouldn't be an inherent negative for the Town to commit this early (remember, Madame is definitely pro on contributing and moving the game forward in its limited time frame - I doubt she'd reward us for dragging our feet). In some ways it's more valuable to vote someone to get a key than to lynch - it won't reset the scum kill cooldown, and it's not like we get less flip information out of hammering the Key giveaway than we would hammering a lynch. Unless I missed something, we're at 6 votes on Hebi-chan out of 7. I think anyone who feels strongly that we ought not give it to Hebi-chan, feels very strongly that we should give it to another specific person, or feels strongly that we should slow down (I would be skeptical) should make their arguments now. Otherwise, why should we wait?

[Plum]

The thing about maria is this:

NK is a scummy mess with little information or content to offer, part of the bottom quartile along with TemporalLich and Skygazer. Trying to sort those three by likelihood of being scum right now seems low-utility. But to put it bluntly, we should avoid taking any of them into the Well of Fears.

Why not toss Maria in that list?

Maria just barely scrapes above the bottom quartile but literally only because she said "GE is Town but don't ask why just yet", which isn't ~content or anything but may (~~~~) be a meaningful contribution down the line (honestly statistically it says a lot more about Gamma's likelihood of being Town than Maria's but still not nothing about Maria's).

is backwards, IMO. The "GE is town but don't ask why" thing fits to a T how I think Maria's scumgame works; it's the kind of peppering in things that are "loudly" townish that she iirc does as scum. I can't think of examples but. I do agree w/ plum that it says more about Gamma being likely town than it does overall about Maria but I think it's actually a point in favor of her being scum.

Her boredom/catchup-post style in the first couple days fits how she played as scum in mlp. 451 is *absolutely* a line I can see her saying as scum.

Okay, that's a valuable perspective, I hear you.

[Town]

implosion (setup spec and pushes ahoy)

Since when is setup spec a towntell?

also yeah
I'm in a neighbourhood with NK15
we both don't know why we're in there
I'm assuming someone put us in there?

Well, keep us posted on if anything valuable comes up there I guess.

If we already have voices for picking TL as somewhere in scum/unreadable/deadweight and for GreyICE as Town I like the idea of sending one of {MariaR, kuribo} as players who are well above the "able to function and contribute constructively" threshhold, still kinda opaque to me, but would be very helpful to the Town if someone like GreyICE came out of the game we're sending people to with a firm Townread on. Then on top of that, maybe one of {Alisae, Katsuki} as players who are vibrant, contributing, but based on their styles I would find hard to trust any Townread I generated on them based on flipless dayplay alone - if there's a chance mechanical information comes out of the game one way or another, that could be especially valuable for those two in particular. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more players get a bonus

and

one or more players get a malus out of the game.

VOTE: MariaR

[Plum]

b sure to tell TL whether ur voting for a town scum or null read

[Plum]

VOTE: implosion

[Plum]

you know what screw it...

it's very clear that question doesn't deserve an answer.

Not true. I also requested you answer. You might have missed it. But please do.

[Plum]

you know what screw it...

it's very clear that question doesn't deserve an answer.

Not true. I also requested you answer. You might have missed it. But please do.

not really, though you probably forgot the quote of that question in 609 is a naked quote

Actually, I didn't forget that. Don't know why you made that assumption. Any reason you didn't respond at the time?

Yeah fuck it I think he should answer


I mean I don't actually care about the answer


But I'm willing to scream at him for fifteen pages about it if necessary

Not really out of wanting to know but more because I think it would be amusing

It's slightly more beneficial to the town to do your setup spec out in the open, so the rest of the town can know it... that's the reasoning I got.

It means the other townies don't have to setup spec as hard as normal.

Okay now sorry to ask, but does this hold true when the setup spec isn't. Like when it isn't setup spec.

[Plum]

though 51/52 is setup spec and you can't tell me it isn't.

it isn't.

... why would you attack a townread on you?

u wot mate

ever heard of scum buddying up to a Townie

not 100% this is a portrait of you here and now but, like

there's nothing unusual in questioning someone's Townread on you

especially if that Townread is founded on MOONBEAMS

[Plum]

okay I've not played with Pine before so I thought he was being deathtunneled.

If he's indeed a scum picker... then yeah that's a good reason to banish him. Pine already was being scummy but the deathtunnel was off-putting.

He was certainly accused of being a scum picker before you got all prissy about "deathtunneling" him.

We really have to deal with two people who are trying to apply Abstract Mafia Theory to a game they're not even reading here? And spend pages going back and forth while Skygazer is allowed to just fade into the background because we have nothing better to do during this enforced no-lynch period? At least we got kuribo revved up, but we need Real Voting back ASAP.

[Plum]

you're really trying too hard to come across as not having to try hard against NK15's accusations here. doesn't bode well tbh

I mean, doesn't matter, you're being voted into the game atm essentially because hebi wanted you as one scum read that three of the Townreads could grill so, like, fine

and you're also lucky that Skygazer still looks even worse than you

[Plum]

I mean, it's pretty quiet around here with no lynch vote available. At least the Key vote was a Townread vote that could be hammered with a majority. These votes matter for something, sure, but it's not a clear cut vote Townread/vote scumread, argue about the biggest wagon(s). Right now we're in kind of a holding pattern until 50.

[Plum]

Gamma Emerald hasn't posted since last Tuesday.

That's way too many

[Plum]

Damn when even NK15 is reading more closely than you

Damn, it hurts but absolutely deserved.

[Plum]

Merci, Madame!

Plan looks good to me.

[Plum]

ok well here's my plan
2 of {Me, Implo, GreyICE} agree to vote safety while the other votes for the key.
I think thats how we play this out because if TL votes safety, whoever votes key gets the key and banishes TL
and if TL votes key, we just give the key to whoever voted key and we banish TL

if ur the person I'm giving a key too, I'm giving it to you because I TR you not because I want to test an ability.
Either way I'm defaulting my vote to safety, Implo can be the one to decide if u get the key or not.
I just don't think TL should have it

So: Alisae is voting Safety. Implo and GreyICE need to decide who's voting Key and who's voting Safety among the two of them, correct? I have a slight preference for GreyICE taking the key but the important thing is not to leave it up in the air, we have until 6:59 EDT tonight.

[Plum]

Okay, interim plan has GreyICE, Alisae, TL on Safety and implo on Key, implo Banishes TL; if TL defects and chooses Key instead, one of Alisae or GreyICE gets to choose to Banish TL and give Key to implo

We can re-coordinate before deadline if GreyICE shows up

I'm pretty confident in GreyICE Town rn so in principle I'd be fine with him getting the Key and keeping it but we can discuss that if he shows up. I don't object to implo getting his hands on it, anyway

[Plum]

Yes

GreyICE go Safety.

If he hasn't locked Key in without telling us, he should default to this.

Alisae, TL, also Safety

.

Implo Key

.

If we do this and TL does go Safety, implo gets the Key and chooses TL to banish.

If we do this and TL defects and goes Key, then GI and Alisae get to choose one of {TL, implo} to get Key and one to Banish and the choice seems obvious.

If and only if GreyICE is around before deadline we can coordinate switching to GI go Key and Implo Safety. Implo says he will probably be around at the deadline so this is an option but don't worry about this unless GreyICE actually shows up and initiates coordination on it!

[Plum]

I would not conclude the last point.

[Plum]

Up to three third-party players seems like it would be at the edge of possible in this type of game, actually.

[Plum]

or maybe kuribo simply trolled and really is 3p this game but all that matters in the end is that he's not mafia

I copped him last day and got the results (not mafia)

thanks for confirming kuribo is 3P and not scum...

it's still better to banish 3P than town though.

Yeah well it's not like we can choose to Banish kuribo rn regardless so it's moot

[Plum]

or maybe kuribo simply trolled and really is 3p this game but all that matters in the end is that he's not mafia

I copped him last day and got the results (not mafia)

thanks for confirming kuribo is 3P and not scum...

it's still better to banish 3P than town though.

Yeah well it's not like we can choose to Banish kuribo rn regardless so it's moot

You can next round but you shouldn't until I reveal the secrets of the black key


Otherwise town and scum can get aaaaaaaaalllllll the way to the well of fears without realizing they're handing me the win instead of winning themselves

Sure, we can worry about it then

[Plum]

I'm not a kuribo goon.

You wouldn't know it if you were unless I got a red key which opens up a neighborhood among them

Sounds like you would be less keen on Banishing him if he were though, to be fair.

[Plum]

Sorry, I napped a lot of the day, hadn't read that yet when I did my catchup post.

Considering how this game worked out I think we sent in the right people. I trust Imp/GI/Alisae a lot more now.

I don't think we sent in the

wrong

people per se. But I don't trust any of those three

more

than I did previously.

I don't know. Maybe it's the two claimed third parties, with one of them gumming up the game deliberately (not that I

blame

kuribo for playing to his won condition but yeah) and maybe it's the no-reveal stuff - probably a bit of both. But I'm starting to feel like this game is going off spiraling into a grey oblivion. And that's saying something considering that the Pine Banish, hebi-chan Key vote were both as I would have had them, and for the game even the TL Banish + implo Key basically went as planned and the plan was decent in my book. Wellll ... sure, I would have preferred GreyICE take that Key, but he wasn't around to coordinate otherwise and so it goes. Like, these all seem like successes. I should be feeling only more and more pleased with the gamestate! But instead I'm getting paranoid that we're on the completely wrong track.

Like, I've been going along with the semi-consensus implo-Town read. But I'm not even sure how well founded that even is? I'm not exactly happy about him asking TL for a pre-Banish Key Cop result.

I am so looking forward to banishing NK16

Uhhhh

not sure there

I feel like my sense of what's going on and what I should do in this game is all scrambled.

[Plum]

Sorry, was V/LA for Sabbath followed by Jewish fast day, catching up now

[Plum]

Please everyone just ignore kuribo to the best of your ability and that's it. Also Skygazer. Just ignore them and don't give them Keys, the end.

I’m not sold on the NK15 quick Lynch. Pine was justice. This feels like annoyance.

Among other people (GreyIce, Implosion) are my never lynch group.

For a number of reasons, GreyICE is in my "I can't picture lynching them" group. Implo is not. Can you help me see why your Townread on Implo is so firm?

Maria, look, "Towny" third party isn't a thing. Like it really, really isn't. Also, I want to be real with you, if you feel strongly that your Town game can only really contribute lynching your scumreads, you're going to have to do better than the claimed third party who is actively antagonizing the game because that's his style and he wants to manipulate us. That's not you providing a valuable insight.

I do not want to lynch Katsuki if only because their Townreads are good. Straight up.

Sorting her while not putting pressure on her and voting me instead?

Words are cheap.

NK15, I appreciate that you are trying something but I have no idea what it is. Also you're wrong.

[Plum]

Hey Hebi-chan, can you help me understand where your strong Townread of Implo is coming from? I pretty much trust you but I don't trust Implo nearly as much.

The claimed third parties are already in a position where we wouldn't willingly give them keys and wouldn't willingly take them into the Well of Fears. I'm not super interested in lynching there. I am super interested in full-on ignoring. I would rather use the pressure of a lynch - limited though it may be - to grill players who have a chance of being in a coalition. Players who some are Townreading and some are scumreading, like Implo and Maria (and Katsuki I guess is in that category?).

[Plum]

I'm with GreyICE here

VOTE: implosion

Plum questioned why I liked implosion as town. The reasons are private but she should know why.

Hebi, I'm sorry, I've definitely tried to figure this one out - I spent a day looking into this with as much thoroughness as I could - but I'm drawing a blank and will need you to walk me through it.

[Plum]

Yes, I know you share a Neighborhood. Yes, I share a Neighborhood with him, though I'm not 100% sure he Neighborized me, technically. A few things don't add up. Regardless "I Neighborized Implo, he Neighborized Plum" may be close enough to true for our purposes but it is not a sufficient reason not to lynch him. There's quite a lot questionable going on with him that the existence of these Neighborhoods don't answer.

Hebi, we need to discuss

a) your strong Townread of Implo. If it's based on content in the Neighborhood, I would really appreciate it if you discussed it in a more specific way, enough to help me see why you feel this strongly that Implo is Town.

And also

b) what implo claimed to you in your Neighborhood

[Plum]

1-shot neighborizer that can steal a key from the person in the neighborhood, used on plum.

a 1-shot I
Key cop that tells you if the key is "the real color"?

He can avoid an event with his orange key ability

Okay, no differences in what he claimed to both of us. Still kind of pissed about the first one to be honest, but let's pass over that. If - if - somehow - what Skygazer has to say explains

how

he managed to Neighborize me, I will give it due consideration. Otherwise there's a huge gaping hole in this story.

Back to the first thing - why you're so convinced he's Town. Please. If you really think he's Town because of how he acted in your Neighborhood thread, please try to give us a sense of what was so Town about it.

[Plum]

When did you Neighborize him?

[Plum]

Hebi, what prompted Implo to claim to you, or you to him?

[Plum]

Skygazer

no
just no

you will never get the Blue or any other Key

just no

[Plum]

my investigation on maria revealed her cys picks, my investigation on implo is a rolecop, and i get a couple more things i want to hold close to the chest if i'm given the blue key

1. A rolecop will tell us whether he claimed falsely to Hebi-chan and me - it could be the nail in the coffin but it can't clear him. Fine, sure.

2. You won't get the Blue Key. We may keep you alive, but Keys? No.

[Plum]

Could be that, could be she's third party of a sort similar to what she originally claimed

I sure as hell don't trust her

[Plum]

I mean I'll be real it's a role that fits real well with your original third-party-who-needs-to-guess-wincons things. Or you could be scum who gambited because you were gaining a decent amount of attention. I know that before you claimed non-mutually-exclusive-wincon third party I was planning on pushing your lynch hard. Then you claimed and I decided to ignore you for the time being.

Or maybe possibly you are objectively TERRIBLE Town

but I don't care. You don't get Keys, and likely you get lynched.

[Plum]

Skygazer: I'd never pull this gambit as scum - no one would ever trust me to give me a Key even if they let me live!

Also Skygazer: Remember when I said I was third party? Actually I'm Town, just gambiting, hoping you all will give me the Blue Key so I can do sweet Town things!

[Plum]

kuribo: why would i ever investigate you? your claim was so anti-town that you're never really ever making it inside the well so i don't really have to worry about you

i'm fine with not having a key tbh, just fullclaimed for the sake of fullclaiming. i'd get like, at best, one more clear with the blue key so it's not super important

This you consider fullclaiming? Come on.

[Plum]

Uh huh. Ever see the Rock do “it doesn’t matter what you think”?

[Plum]

Alisae, when you got a Neighborhood with NK15, what was the notification like? Promise this is potentially relevant.

[Plum]

those abilities are super scummy lmfao so him full claiming is probs town indicative

He got Neighborized by Hebi-chan, who was the one who offered claim for claim. Rolecops and the like can exist (!), and I'm sure Implo knows it. The fact that he happened to be able to Neighborize-plus-it-can-Keysteal me when I was immune to actions is still a real, true, factual obstacle I can't account for and that no one has claimed responsibility for. If anyone would like to, well, please do. Sure, maybe by coincidence some scum disabled my immunity

and

Implo innocently Neighborized me while my action-immunity was conveniently disabled? And yeah, it's so nice and sweet that he consulted with consensus Townread Hebi-chan privately about who to target with "Neighborize but if you ever get a Key I take it" and chose me ... and then suggested in the thread that if GreyICE got the Yellow Key during the four-player game that he should transfer it to me. At the time I had

no idea

about the KEY STEALING CLOSE THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND GO HOME aspect of the Neighborhood, which he had not yet claimed to me. Sure feels nice when someone Townreads you enough to want to put a Key in your hands, right? And even if I was hard Townreading GreyICE (was; still am), why would I object to the Key being in my hands instead of GreyICE's if Implo doesn't have as strong a Townread on him, seems legit, right?

Skygazer, you decided to sit out playing the game for... honestly, most of it. In order to do nothing. By the time you claimed 3rd Party, Gamma Emerald had already been shot, you unclaimed before scum got another shot. So your idea that you were "dodging a kill" is literally nonsensical, since at no point during the time you were claiming third party did scum have a kill available.

You then brought back your investigative result which was "Implosion's role looks really scummy. That means he's probably town!" You are now offended we are not listening to you, not paying attention to you, and do not give two fucks about your stupid shenanigans. What we can say is that

at best

you have poor judgment, at worst you're actively trying to deceive us. Neither is a strong incentive to give a fuck. That's what happens when instead of playing the game, you dropped a drama bomb. Town, scum, third party, whatever, you done fucked up. I don't know if this is a scum gambit, derptown, some third party nonsense shenanigans, and frankly I don't care. None of this is fucking useful

You lynch all liars, because there's one faction that's thinking "what lies will get me best through this game". They select lies that they think will give them the highest odds of survival and the highest odds of winning. You claimed third party when there was significant pressure on you to do something. Now you've unclaimed it, begged for a key, and presented us with this useless pile of WIFOM.

You're not getting a key. You are dying. If you really are town, you can go make yourself useful before you die. If you're scum, you can keep whining about it. Neither will do shit to change the outcome that you yourself have set in stone.

Yeah, he said it all, I don't have anything I need to add here.

Ali, I feel similarly to GreyICE re: Katsuki being prob-Town.

[Plum]

Key Vote

41

Not Voting (9)- GreyICE, Hebichan, Katsuki, Plum, Kuribo, NK15, MariaR, Skygazer, Alisae

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to Win a Key

The RED Key has appeared from the ether, as if drawn to the horrible act of putting one of your own into that damned Black Hole. You may vote for a player to obtain this key. If at time code 48 no one has a majority, plurality will suffice. If there is a tie, both tied players will be removed, and the next highest vote getter will receive a key.

Merci, Madame!

Can you please clarify the deadline for this vote, as Time Code 48 has already passed?

[Plum]

Merci, Madame!

Madame has graciously informed me, in response to my immediate questions that no, she cannot tell me what the color of the other Key I hold is nor how I got it. Asking her now if I can choose to will away the Key I have whose color I don't know (???!!!).

[Plum]

VOTE: Not Known 15
It's time for me to get a key.

You wot mate

Are you high

VOTE: Katsuki let's not let the game stagnate again. Get some Key votes out.

Re implo, I don't know. Based on his play in our Neighborhood, he never stopped acting as though he had a strong Townread on me, and giving me the Key follows that line of play consistently. The no-reveal and possible revives from Banishment mean that scum!implo might have seen utility in that line of play. Or maybe we were wrong.

[Plum]

VOTE: Not Known 15
It's time for me to get a key.

You know, I'm actually curious. Why do you think you *should* get a Key? Like, go ahead, convince me I'm wrong to think it's such a crazy idea.

Also, if you couldn't get a Key today, who *would* you vote for?

[Plum]

Skygazer. She got so so invested in the game when the Implo wagon got traction, unclaimed third party to claim Town investigative, threw tons of shade on the Implo wagon. I got a Key (heck, I was willed a Key by implo and somehow have another mystery? Key). Katsuki seems to be a candidate to get the Red Key. And Skygazer has disappeared again, and not out of site-wide V/LA or anything.

So yeah, if anyone had any residual concerns that maybe Skygazer was Town who chose a really bad gambit, I don't think you have to worry anymore, frankly regardless of Implo's alignment she's def not Town (could still be either third party or Mafia). If she were really Town and cared she'd still be invested in reading and pushing the people who drove the Implo wagon and trying to get a Key into the hands of someone she trusted.

[Plum]

Okay we have what, one day to finish the Key vote? Maria, if you're going to do more than sit and hmmmmmst than you ought to bite the bullet and do so.

[Plum]

Okay nu, Maria is Town, if she has thoughts about this that are causing her to hesitate on Katsuki or whatever, she should get on talking about that.

[Plum]

Sounds good.

[Plum]

Skygazer

could

well be groupscum. NK15 is being hard to read and could be scum too. But aside from them and kuribo I have some level of Townread on everyone left here. Maria least of the bunch but still she's probably more likely Town than scum.

[Plum]

Unofficial vote count. Deadline is tomorrow? but we don't have an exact time (?)

NK15 - 1 - NK15
Katsuki - 3 - Plum, Katsuki, Skygazer
Alisae - 2 - Alisae, hebichan

GreyICE, looking for a vote from you here? I'm okay with Ali getting the Key. Definitely want to avoid an awkward scenario where Ali and Katsuki accidentally/"accidentally" have the same number of votes and NK15 gets the Key.

NK15, yesterday you were moping that Town had already lost the majority or was on the verge of it and now you're just randomly stating that groupscum might already be eliminated???

[Plum]

So PoE is one factor
Another factor is her posts fairly recently
Kind of just
Suck?

Also I feel like going through Implosion’s reads, Plum was definitely distancing herself away from Implo.
There was also another instance where Implo tried to give Plum a key during the minigame by suggesting that we give the key to you and that you swap it to Plum.

Hm, I kind of see how you came to this conclusion and honestly that you did is probably points in your favor. Fact of the matter is that a lot of uncovering the problems with implo was work done behind the scenes (and not just in the Neighborhood Implo and I shared) and I actually did as much of it as I could outside the thread to maximize my resources and give implo as few outs as possible while I gathered information.

[Plum]

If you mean "isn't the most important question still 'Why does Plum have a Key?'", maybe it is, idk. See below.

If you mean "isn't the most important question "Why does Plum

still

have a Key?", well, I could only get rid of one. And I tried to figure out whether I could will away the other Key I apparently have instead of the Yellow one but the answer from Madame was essentially 'no' (even if I named any of {Orange, Blue, Purple} to will away, she said I'd be told it wouldn't work). What I

can

say is at the time I held two Keys and had to will one away, according to Madame the Yellow Key was the only

active

Key I held. Thus it appears that the other Key - the one I currently hold - was inactive or in some other-than-active state (?), and probably still is.

I'm just as much in the dark as presumably every other Townie here on how I came to possess this other, apparently inactive Key, or how a Key that is not "active" behaves compared to an "active" Key. I

do

think that this is important - Madame indeed called my holding this other Key and inability to identify it or will it away a mystery to solve at some point during my questions to her about it. Unfortunately, I don't have other leads or information to solve the mystery beyond what I have said here. I'm not impressed by Maria's flippant refusal to answer about her apparent Key snipe (?) as "unimportant".

[Plum]

Vote to Banish: Skygazer

Let's not drag this out

[Plum]

maria: if u trust me to townside as a third party, katsuki faked their guilty on implo. his alignment wasn't redacted in my result

Lollllll

[Plum]

...
Can I be worried

[Plum]

Agreed

VOTE: Alisae

[Plum]

Welcome back friends and foes

Key Vote: Alisae

[Plum]

Hey GE, anything juicy in the Black Hole thread?

[Plum]

Man, I almost forgot we'd have to put up with Skygazer again after finally getting rid of her.

Again, obligatory "I don't actually begrudge the third parties for playing to their wincons in the thread but it's still a detriment to the Town."

[Plum]

Man, I almost forgot we'd have to put up with Skygazer again after finally getting rid of her.

Again, obligatory "I don't actually begrudge the third parties for playing to their wincons in the thread but it's still a detriment to the Town."

srry

i mean my wincon is pretty similar to a town wincon fwiw (ie solving the game, but like, by myself)

I'm not trying to be rude, but even assuming you're telling the truth about your win condition it's not even remotely like being Town-aligned in practice, and your play thus far has borne that out. Planning on ignoring you from here.

[Plum]

Sorry, I've been depressed all weekend.

Chosen One Vote: Katsuki

Not really interested in Maria for Chosen One. Known defector.

[Plum]

Implo's claimed Key cop ability isn't the same ability that lets him steal a Key

That said he seems likely scum and if he gets revived I assume our Neighborhood and his ability to steal a Key from me via that ability will go back into effect, and that seems pretty bad.

[Plum]

honestly, it's kind of baffling to me that plum doesn't townread me given what's in the neighborhood and given that i'm still pretty confident she's town. I think my candidness and genuine frustration there really should be speaking for itself.

but that's a gripe for postgame because no flip games are indeed fucking stupid

Implo - you tried to steal a Key from me by Neighborizing me????

Also you should not have been able to Neighborize me when you did. But you did Neighborize me. I don't know what could have broken my action-immunity. Maybe it was just a coincidence that you Neighborized me with a Key-stealing Neighborize when something else entirely had broken my action-immunity. But if so, it was an awfully convenient one.

If only one of those were true, maaaaybe I would be considering whether I should trust you.

The neighborhood material isn't particularly convincing. Sorry.

I'd rather get rid of Implo with GE's Banish, honestly, because I apparently do hold a Key and I have a thought about what it is and how it might get activated. And I do

not

want Implo auto-stealing it through his Neighborhood-Key-Steal thing.

[Plum]

Hey Skygazer, if you're so intent on helping Town, why the hell would you say that implo's alignment was redacted in your investigation and then go back and say it wasn't and he's Town

oh wait

[Plum]

"town isn't winning this" is an observation

it's almost certainly a correct observation and i'm fairly confident there's nothing i can do about it.

:hitoshrug:

Implo - you tried to steal a Key from me by Neighborizing me????

Also you should not have been able to Neighborize me when you did. But you did Neighborize me. I don't know what could have broken my action-immunity. Maybe it was just a coincidence that you Neighborized me with a Key-stealing Neighborize when something else entirely had broken my action-immunity. But if so, it was an awfully convenient one.

If only one of those were true, maaaaybe I would be considering whether I should trust you.

Me trying to steal a key by neighborizing you should have nothing to do with your read on me given that i claimed it to you, unless you disbelieve that i could possibly have found you null or scummy at the time that I neighborized you or you think my role intrinsically can't be town. And I wasn't trying to steal a key, as I've said; I just wanted to use the neighborhood as a more direct way to sort someone, and you were someone that I had no strong read on and Hebichan agreed wasn't strongly sortable at that point.

Then you (at least, I believe) townslipped, and everything changed.

With regards to the action immunity thing, I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with my alignment. Do you think i, as scum somehow neighborized you in a way that pierced action immunity? Why would I do that exactly?? How would I have known you were action immune (I didn't until now)? Why the hell would a neighborize have a way to pierce action immunity? Do you think skygazer is just lying about me having truthfully claimed my role (I assume the answer to this one is yes, but still asking just because)?

I mean, like GreyICE pointed out, you did push for me to be given a Key

before

you told me that the Neighborhood had a Key-stealing component. Doesn't exactly sit right with me.

Idk, maybe scum have a factional ability that allows their actions to temporarily ignore things like the immunity I had and you used this other ability while you were at it. Maybe there's a strongman component to the ability. Yes, I agree it

could

have been coincidence. But it's not a good look.

Re Skygazer, yeah no I don't trust her. But all right. Call that "circumstantial" evidence in your favor. I'll consider the case for you being Town if you think it's profitable. If you're Town, convince me that you're safe to leave alive, sure, go ahead. I'm willing to be wrong. Who's scum though? If you're Town and you trust me, let's figure it out.

[Plum]

If the only satisfaction I get out of this godforsaken morass of a game is seeing Skygazer absolutely toasted on her solve

Hmm

Not a bad consolation prize I guess

[Plum]

GE I don't want to be rude about this

But why the hell are you trusting Sky of all people here to direct your reads

Really

First of all, she's not Town

Second of all, her reads are p bad. Like I know for a fact endgame will come around and some behind the scenes stuff will come out and she'll just be kicking herself for making all these reads and being smug about them but just being totally in the dark

[Plum]

hi

sorry about not posting, I was really really depressed last week

the lack of agency in this game has not made me a happy panda either, but at least we be getting flips now

thank goodness

[Plum]

Okay cool, that worked.

Spoilers, I had a *mystery ability* which apparently was "you had the Blue Key all along, but not really, until you activated the mystery ability"

we doing this y/n?

[Plum]

Okay hi, I'm Selkie, Town Survivalist, main thing you need to know, I have a seal coat. I used to have two abilities, a passive that made me take one more vote to lynch and I could pass it to another player if I died (passing my seal coat to them). One active ability to make me immune to actions and events for 12 time units, with a cooldown of 12 time units. This was active when implo Neighborized me, hence. One one-use ability to take off my seal coat, losing my two prior described abilities and ??? I explicitly didn't know what would happen if I used this ability. Apparently I really had the Blue Key all along but not active or something and using it gave me the Blue Key but For Real.

When I hold the Blue Key I have an ability that, let's say it's a slight twist on the action and event immunity ability I had before I gave up my seal coat. Details upon request only.

I have implo's result on the Yellow Key but I don't know if/when I should make it public. Hebi also has it as well per what implo said.

Popcorn to MARIA yo.

[Plum]

hi

[Plum]

did not want to get Black Key'd that's all carry on

[Plum]

GE also please choose someone to claim next

[Plum]

yo

[Plum]

Let me be real. Maria, you might be Town. If you are, I need to reevaluate a lot. I have reasonably strong Townreads on everyone in the game besides you and kuribo. But most of them are things I

could

be wrong about. I'd just be varying degrees of surprised.

But for fucks sake you have to try and work with what's going on here if you are in fact Town. I don't want to just give in to apathy but the longer things go on the more TERRIBLE EVERYTHING becomes so please

please

convince me to lynch Katsuki, if that's really what you think we ought to do

if you are Town

don't just sit there waiting and doing nothing

I'm begging you

I'm not going to sit here hoping you contribute and not lynching you forever because every moment I do

the game gets more and more terrible

and just

no

[Plum]

Maria this is less about please defend yourself and more about

geez I have no idea what your thought process or approach to this game has been

at all

like I don't want this to come down to "will you or won't you discuss what was up with your snipe of the Red Key at all"

but all I have on you is that you did that and I have no idea how or why

like if you are not transparent about any of that

and

I have no means of understanding why you are not transparent about that

what the hell do I have to work with? I want to believe you're readable but you seem determined not to invest in doing things and committing to stuff that might be readable???

look, part of me wants to believe that you're Town and you really wouldn't have picked scum for this game and you think for some reason it's best to deal with your scumread Katsuki in this manner? Fuck me, I want to believe fucking Skygazer that they really investigated you and you really picked Town and also are actually Town

because I sure as hell do not really believe I have this game as figured out as I would like to think wrt my Townreads

I don't want to F up again like with implo. Like he was essentially right, between when I got targeted by him, and reason to feel more Town than not on GI (he's deftown tho) and Alisae and Kats it didn't add up very well but he was Town and we're not getting that one back.

but I also don't want to get fucking bamboozled by you essentially just doing whatever, not really engaging, and just letting you do that if you are scum

because damn if this game isn't beset by the worst apathy

now some of it is coming from kuribo and that's his prerogative as 3rd party

and some of it is coming from Madame and that's her prerogative too I guess

and I feel like??? the rest is on you

maybe that's unfair. Maybe scum!Kats is bamboozling me and is really the source of that extra apathy

this game is like wearing lead chains and wading through jello

but if you are Town I don't give a damn about you DEFENDING yourself per se

I'm saying if you're Town, pull your weight in helping us not fucking die to the apathetic hellhole this game has become

I kind of don't care how you do it

but if you're Town, stop sitting around waiting for the apathy to kill us

thx

[Plum]

Like here's the thing Maria

did you actually make a nice convincing case in your PT with Kuribo that you're Town

or something

I don't care about the topic

but if you ARE Town and you spent time and energy convincing third party fucking kuribo that you're Town??? or convincing him of anything else related to reads or alignment

but you don't/can't/won't/idk do anything like that in the thread with everyone

then like, why

no

and yes if you're scum you can disregard this, you're welcome to play scum this way and you don't need me to tell you that

PEDIT:

THANK YOU KURIBO I WILL EVEN RESPOND

I DON'T CARE IF MARIA HAD A CHOICE OR NOT WITH GRABBING THE RED KEY

REALLY

BUT IF ALL SHE DOES IS TEE-HEE AROUND THE FACT THAT THAT HAPPENED

IT'S ALL THE SAME

if she is in fact Town

yo

she could consider talking about it honestly

maybe

just saying

PPEDIT: lmao urself

[Plum]

i don't even anymore

i don't blame any player in particular at this point even anymore

i just accept that it sucks

like I said, i want to believe fucking Skygazer at this point that you're Town Maria

I have no meta knowledge of you and I'm willing to believe you're a god of scum but I'm not basing my attempts to read you off that baseline in particular, I am trying to based off of your play

which helpfully is restricted??? (wrt Red Key situation at least) by Madame's fiat??? which

well in this game I would not be surprised by everything being terrible forever so sure, why not

at this point if Katsuki bamboozles me because they're scum whatever, I accept I got played and the setup screwed us a little and we have a laugh in endgame and go on our merry way

if you bamboozle me because you're scum, then I sit around feeling like "well, fair play MariaR, nice to meet you, glad that the setup was such that you could be deliberately unreadable all game and win because apathy and also paranoia"

now let me be clear I will NOT base my decisions on which version of a losing endgame is more palatable, I'm conscientious and will play to the damn win condition no matter how opaque the gamestate

but man I'm just saying if you are Town, any little bit you can do to make it less so is cash money

and I appreciate just knowing that it's not just lack of feeling like any accountability can be established by the players in this game that has prevented you from talking about the Red Key situation

[Plum]

Lol Kats

that isn't ominous at all

???

[Plum]

Nah Kats let's be real

Fullclaim including this TU12 thing or I'll just hammer Well when I'm on tomorrow

[Plum]

So maybe it's Ali? Or maybe it's Maria?

if Hebi, I'm screwed

if GreyICE, he actually deserves kudos for a great scumgame. What the kids these days call "deepwolfing". Which, let me just get the chance to say, get these Werewolf terms out of my Mafia Discussion, what is this? It's a shame on the community, that's what

idk

I'm kinda glad we go to well, I was thinking I should vote for that but motivation is so hard in thread AND IRL so

like what should I even at this point

kuribo, I don't care, you're a lose-lose proposition in this game, if I say I'm ignoring you I'm playing right into your hands, no doubt if I engage with you same thing so what are you trying to do lording it over me?

you may be brilliant this game but even so it wasn't your brilliance that put three (?) third parties in this game so, like, good job working with what you have i guess

I'm honestly too depressed irl to invest more emotional energy in this game. Not because of the players. Just because of the setup. And the depression. That too.

[Plum]

I'll make it easy for you Ali

it's not me

and thank fuck because I would probably not be coping with both life and playing scum rn and knowing my preferences was exactly why I put Mafia at the bottom of my fucking list

I was talking to Vi about how I was wondering if anyone would even remember my past meta of preferring playing Town over scum heavily

like fun fact in one of my later games I was in a Smalltown draft mini and I had third pick and I picked Innocent Child pretty much because guaranteed Town

but whatever, appeals to self-meta are in the eye of the beholder and all that

I'm sitting here hoping I don't throw the game in Well that's all

[Plum]

This game

GI's posts have me even more 1000% convinced he's Town. If he's scum, despite this absolute monstrosity of a setup (even I did not think it counted as Mafia if you have more individual third party roles than Mafia), he's earned a win with brilliant play. But I'll go out there and say he isn't.

Hebi, part of me thinks that if GI is sold I should be too. Like he knows her and her meta and her preferences and I trust him and I personally have never played with her before. So. I, uhhhh ... I could be more paranoid about Hebi based on TL's ISO than he is, like, not very but not quite 1000% sure that TL's posts mean Hebi can't be scum.

Which would leave GE???

I don't really know. Like I said previously in the Neighborhood, I spent a while kind of assuming that one of the would-be scumkills could have? gotten caught by my self-protection ability. And yeah we did spend a while assuming that scum didn't know what the death and resurrection mechanics were. Which they might have. I mean hell, for all we know scum had other mechanics related to death and resurrection?

We probably fullclaim ability usage including Time Units rn, you can hold for me to commute to work and I'll post midmorning

[Plum]

Okay, I used my "give self immunity to actions and events for 12 Time Units with 12 Time Unit cooldown" ability on TU 58 (July 29) shortly after the Pine lynch (on the assumption that after a fast first lynch scum was likely to try to kill). So it lasted from Time Units 58-46 or thereabouts and was on cooldown from 46-34 or thereabouts - I'm not exactly sure where the border between Time Units is but I used it again and was told by Madame it was received on TU 35 (August 22) and it lasted something like 35-23 or so? On TU 23 I used my ability that I didn't know what it did except it got rid of my other abilities (the active immunity ability and my passive "takes one more to lynch and can pass on this ability after death). It gave me the Blue Key. Using the Blue Key I activated an ability yesterday September 24 Time Unit 11 right before Madame's event welcoming us to the Well of Fears (so before any of the sacrifices). The ability gives myself and a player I targeted immunity from abilities and events for 12 Time Units. I'll claim if necessary, but my target was

not

Maria or Alisae, so there is another immune target alive.

Popcorn to GE

[Plum]

did I kill the game

because

I'm so sorry

[Plum]

Chemist, can you still use the Neighborize power? Then if you Neighborized Hebi she can see for herself. Or Neighborize GE if you like I guess.

Hebi, Chemist can confirm that GI had no serious suspicions of me in the Neighborhood thread and indeed none based on my play - he gave it consideration as he said in the game topic only because with only you, me, and GE left he had to consider that despite strongly reading my play as Town that I might yet be scum. Like straight up he said that the considerations he was making that I might be scum were in light of the players left and TL's posts regarding them,

not

any of my posts or play, including in the Neighborhood.

Sorry, I think your game if you're scum is personally fantastic, but I don't read people in LyLo based on their posts, I read them based on other people's. If I haven't lynched them already, I'm misreading them.

I'm basically 100% sold that GreyICE was Town based on his posts tho. And he was very very sold that Hebi was Town, and there's nothing I know of to suggest that read was particularly misguided. I look at this game and I look at the GI hood thread and that's still all I got.

[Plum]

I'm V/LA until Tuesday night EDT

[Plum]

Hebi didn't you say you used your commute much earlier than that?

Chemist, did you consider using the Neighborize shot?

[Plum]

I really have no idea who is scum rn

Okay Gamma if you're on convince me you're Town because I'm in the same boat not feeling confident except gun to head I'd choose you ask scum

straight up because basically nothing can convince me GreyICE was scum. His play in thread and in the Neighborhood was basically too good

and he was very very convinced that Hebi is Town, and he knows her IRL so I guess I gave a fair amount of weight to that, especially him saying she really prefers playing Town over scum?

but I'm not sure because again it seems (seems) like a high-risk play for scum-Gamma to get shot by (presumably?) scum

look IDK there are a lot of random possibilities in a bastard 2:7:4 setup like you can imagine a counterfactual where one of the scum had a triggered Banish effect after the first non-scum lynch or something, imagine a fail-safe of some kind of you want that just didn't come into play. Like, yes it seems like such a bad gambit to do deliberately that I'd rule it out - except in this game there's been so little reliable information about what's going on and so many usual assumptions would be just plain wrong (like I thought 3:7:3 was plausible a while back because you have the same number of third parties as actual scum but in fact this game goes way beyond that)

Hebi didn't you say you used your commute much earlier than that?

Chemist, did you consider using the Neighborize shot?

I mean it doesn't really help because that basically just excludes one player from the chat

No no it does way more than that

it would let one of Gamma and Hebi read the Neighbor thread! Which is full of information! If the one you choose is Town then maybe it helps them correctly read and convince us that the other is scum. Or if they're scum maybe their response to reading the thread would be alignment indicative. Point is, it's not about the chance to talk to them privately (could have utility but doesn't need to) - it's about them reading all that prior conversation.

[Plum]

I'll be real. I have one vote, Hebi has two.

If I'm wrong and it's Hebi, she can hammer GE to win regardless of my vote because she has two votes and there are now two from Chemist on GE.

If I'm

really

wrong and GreyICE was scum all along then me voting Gamma Emerald doesn't hammer or offer Chemist a potential scum hammer to win I guess.

If I'm right and Gamma is the last scum, it still doesn't directly matter that I vote for him I guess because Hebi would still need to vote for him to Banish him?

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Plum]

This game was painful in exactly the ways I would have expected a 2:7:4 game would be. That said the first few days were fun, especially GreyICE's Neighborhood was enjoyable, and I think Town did very well especially given the incredibly demotivating circumstances. Hebi did very well too but I'd like to think that in a world where Town had more ability to care left in the tank by Well of Fears and GreyICE didn't have to replace out we might have been able to catch her. Oh yeah, and I was demotivated enough to stop double posting by the end so I got the Black Key I guess. I do think there were some cool ideas here, and the core idea of having multiple pieces where Town needs to hold all of them and scum needs to hold only a specific one to win was very neat.

[Plum]

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not blaming you for going in that direction given the circumstances, but I'm a firm believer in the notion that third parties really do not fill a role as pseudo-Town function and I believe that none of the third parties in this game really did, functionally. In an information game, the more players you have really not motivated by the core information question ends up just muddying everything up and causing deep and abiding demoralization, and 4/13 was just exceptionally harsh in that regard, really compounding some of the issues with the flipless portions of the game, too. I guess I assumed that in typical CYA games there's way more interest in third party alignment than a Mafia game can feasibly support and that gunning for third party is a calculated gamble where if you aren't one of the lucky one or two (or maybe three in a larger game) you may be stuck with something else in the end. I understood that in a Bastard game it's okay to push those boundaries a bit, but I honestly believed that more third parties than scum in a game is simply not Mafia. Let me reiterate, I understand why you went in a different direction than I think I would have with this material, and I think your approach under the circumstances was reasonable, but I do feel like this is a showcase of how third-party slots can impart major negative effects on dayplay when there are simply too many of them - even when some of them are supposed to benefit Town in some way.

[Plum]

In theory you could have just shifted one more third-party pick to their second choice of scum. Honestly at one point during the game I thought it was 7-3-3. And as Town I would have honestly preferred that - it would have made more traditional scumhunting more important and rewarding. As it was, when we were down to only one scum remaining we had only one scum flip to go off of. It would have made a difference if we had real associative tells from just one more non-Town player that we could examine and discuss. As it was, we had like three lynches where we didn't mislynch but also had no real information value gained (Pine, Skygazer, Katsuki).