Mini Theme 2094 : Undertale Semi-Open: Game over!

[Something_Smart]

HEAL: Something_Smart

Now this is an RVS vote I can get behind.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm.

If all three spared are town, that works out pretty well for us, but it would be better if we could just spare four town and win on the spot.

Otherwise, we get dumped into a LYLO with a 1v1 unless the one kill hits scum.

[Something_Smart]

so like we just need to find 2 conf towns to win the game via the neutral route? sounds easy enough even if we are just drawing normally.

If we spare 2 town and kill 2 people, we end up in 5p with a conftown, which is either 3:2 LYLO or 4:1 depending on if either of the two kills hit scum.

Not a terrible scenario but not an autowin by any stretch of the imagination.

[Something_Smart]

We're never using her ability

Do you think genocide is bad or just a boring option in a setup like this?

Undyne's power is amazing if it triggers.

[Something_Smart]

oversoul you're throwing out names and healing who looks like your scum partner

can you not

You think the scumteam would open the game by stacking heal votes on one of their members? O.o

(To be clear I would be totally down for this and was planning to self-heal before I got my role but I doubt my partner would want to tie themself to me like that.)

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I get the spare PR idea, don't see why it needs to be D1 though. If we spare D1 then Undyne can claim D2.

[Something_Smart]

Well, here's my idea. If you're PR and you think you have a reasonable (~33% or greater) chance of dying at night, you should claim and be spared. Otherwise, we can probably put that off until D2/D3 because Toriel equity.

[Something_Smart]

Well Undyne claim D2 in genocide is pretty funny for some evil WIFOM

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, I mean, it's obvious that chennisden is the PR

[Something_Smart]

Spared players aren't removed from the game; in both pacifist and neutral they return to the game at the Core.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, scum's goal isn't to remove townies for the time being...

[Something_Smart]

it's much harder to pretend you're arguing in good faith when you have to push yourself as the towniest player in the game.

Well, because pacifist has no flips, you can maybe get away with pushing your partner as the towniest player in the game.

But that can get screwed over by a mid-game switch to neutral.

[Something_Smart]

WE SPARE THE PR

THE PR GETS NIGHTKILLED ONCE WE SPARE 4 PEOPLE

Actually no. The fifth player to be spared will also be confirmed town, so scum can already kill a conftown in pacifist.

(Before you say anything, that interaction mattered to Alphys but pops took Alphys out to simplify the setup and neither of us realized that removing her made that mechanic kinda dumb )

[Something_Smart]

i also am obviously not scum so idk what else to say.

I was in agreement with this until you said it ngl.

[Something_Smart]

:thonk:

[Something_Smart]

How are they conftown?

Town only has to spare a fifth player if one of the first four was scum. So if a second scum were spared, they would kill for parity and win. The fact that that didn't happen conftowns the fifth player.

[Something_Smart]

Excuse me I am extremely scrutable

Towny pop-in.

[Something_Smart]

I don't blame you.

Setup Speculators Inc. We think about mechanics so you don't have to!

[Something_Smart]

I believe he meant "good at scum."

[Something_Smart]

What's your mafia experience, Adorable? Have you played on another site?

[Something_Smart]

How

126

[Something_Smart]

O.o

[Something_Smart]

HEAL: Something_Smart

I believe I can sort chennis in the spared PT if it comes to that.

[Something_Smart]

I skimmed the rules during the night & this game seems dope

I'm glad you like it

You should heal me.

[Something_Smart]

If you think he's scum, who do you think his partner is?

Or, who do you think his partner isn't?

[Something_Smart]

Sparing Oversoul, while undoubtedly suboptimal, would be really funny.

[Something_Smart]

The biggest danger of healing is that it doesn't give flips so yeah it's possible to get yourself pretty boned.

I think it's best without confident scumreads which we don't really have since D1 was cut short.

[Something_Smart]

Why you?

Because I'm town

And because I think I can sort chennis in the spared topic.

[Something_Smart]

Mm. Why doesnt town SS say I want not go to spared to sort everyone else, and be sent to spared at day 4 (if applicable)?

Because I don't think I can sort everyone, and I think I'm a better early spare because I can make my alignment known really quickly.

Who would you want spared after you ss?

Maybe you? I'm a bit paranoid of a chennis/you team but only a bit; I did read you both as independently towny before chennis said to spare you next.

[Something_Smart]

I'm actually ok with sparing oversoul

The problem with this is that if there really is scum in chennis/Oversoul this will make it impossible to figure out which is which.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I dont think SS is town here

:thonk:

[Something_Smart]

No, it's just that my scumgame is really bad and my towngame is usually solid.

Granted, this applies primarily to people who know me, but that's why I mentioned chennis. I'm fairly confident that he can read me without much trouble.

[Something_Smart]

I mean if it is a chennis/me team, it would mean that five dumb townies decided to speed-spare scum without any scum help... so, unless you actively scumread something chennis posted, that's pretty tinfoily.

[Something_Smart]

Seems legit. I townread DDL independent of that, as well.

[Something_Smart]

I'm always dying tonight

If you're always dying tonight, why would we kill Oversoul today rather than tomorrow?

[Something_Smart]

So we should spare someone not Oversoul/Chemist today, correct?

*wink wink nudge nudge*

Oh hey look, S_S/chennis is not possible anymore. Let's spare me

[Something_Smart]

We spare me (or another townread like DDL or Elements), then if Chemist stops a kill we lynch Oversoul, otherwise we lynch Chemist. Right?

[Something_Smart]

SS you’re never getting spared, sorry bud.

Are you down to spare Elements? Do you think Chemist claims a heal on his partner?

[Something_Smart]

SS you’re never getting spared, sorry bud.

Also, conftown or not, you don't get to say stuff like this without reasoning.

[Something_Smart]

Is Toriel that cow nun thing?

...yes.

[Something_Smart]

Do you not believe that I decided to self-heal before I got my role PM?

What about my chennis interactions don't you like? My read on him, or our mechanics discussion?

[Something_Smart]

I would believe you decided to do that which makes it even more suspect.

How could something that I explicitly would do no matter my role PM possibly be suspect??

And both.

Well, one, I've played with chennis a bit and he seemed pretty genuine, and I thought at the very least he believed in the theory he was proposing whether or not he was actually town.
And two, I love discussing mechanics, and I should think that I of all people have the right to talk about mechanics in this setup...

By and large, mechanics discussions are not indicative of alignment. Most people, me included, who like discussing mechanics will give their true thoughts on the setup regardless of their alignment.

[Something_Smart]

If Elements/chennis has a scum then it's chennis, because he was confident on Elements town.

HEAL: Elements

[Something_Smart]

What the ASS.

HEAL: Chemist

[Something_Smart]

Oversoul if you hated and scumread chennis so much why did you literally force through his plan of having the PR claim and get spared?

[Something_Smart]

And we should see if there actually is a CC.

[Something_Smart]

Oversoul, what did you get out of that gambit?

[Something_Smart]

I mean, it's possible he could have gotten some useful reads from it.

Let's see if he did.

[Something_Smart]

HEAL: pops

Will wait for volxen to check in.

[Something_Smart]

Actually, do you want to be spared chemist?

I would assume he does...

[Something_Smart]

Yeah I intentionally did shit-all in Musicals.

Do you think my eagerness to get spared is at all related to my alignment?

[Something_Smart]

V/LA until Monday

I don't have any serious scumreads at the moment.

[Something_Smart]

DDL, Elements, chennis, maybe Adorable. Maybe you but I still want an answer to 289.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm.

Probably pacifist. I very rarely get to the point where my most confident read is a scumread.

[Something_Smart]

Do you still think chennis is scum?

[Something_Smart]

The only way I think Chennis is scum is if SS is their partner.

That's a bit of a weird logic leap, considering I didn't push to spare him so quickly and he didn't suggest to spare me either.

[Something_Smart]

If I'm town who just wants to be spared, how does that make him town too?

[Something_Smart]

Because he assumes that scum-chennis/town-S_S is impossible and I don't follow why.

[Something_Smart]

I can see SS being scum seeing chennis petitioning for his own spare and trying to do something similar today. SS and Oversoul are not a scum pair.

Bruh I was the first one to try to self-spare. Look at my first post

[Something_Smart]

...well yeah because I actually had a reason that was more valid than "I'm town"

[Something_Smart]

SS earlier you said that you make your alignment known easily and that’s why you should be spared. Can you walk me through that? I’m not sure I follow.

Specifically I believe that if chennis and I have a PT for a few days, he'll be able to confidently call me town. So if we reach a pacifist core and it turns out we spared one scum, he can help confirm that it isn't me.

[Something_Smart]

It very much depends!

Could be harder with this plist since nobody who's able to post really knows me that well, but we'll see. How do you feel about my townreads on DDL and Adorable?

[Something_Smart]

mod can a spared PR still use their power from the spared room to affect non-spared players?

Yes

Oh this was not my intention lol, but I guess it's my fault for not making it clear

[Something_Smart]

Where are all of these Adorable town reads coming from?

Not sure I remember tbh

Maybe 245?

[Something_Smart]

Elements, what have I done that you think I'd be less likely to do as town, and why do you think that?

[Something_Smart]

Why would I not act that way as town?

[Something_Smart]

Or be unlikely to act that way as town, I should say.

[Something_Smart]

I mean, never anywhere did I say that I would only support sparing myself From my point of view, self-spare is objectively the best option, so it was a good starting point. If people don't go for it, I've lost nothing as long as I eventually consolidate on a different wagon that I approve of.

[Something_Smart]

And as for the "I can read chennis" bit, at that time I was under the impression that Oversoul strongly scumread chennis, which meant even if some people townread him he was not really consensus town.

[Something_Smart]

Why?

[Something_Smart]

HEAL: DEB

[Something_Smart]

As far as I can find, you admit that I decided to self-heal before getting my role PM and you still think it was scummy, which literally could not make less sense.

[Something_Smart]

Honestly that heal is why you’re scum

So you voted me for something I did in the future?

[Something_Smart]

So you don't believe that I decided to self-heal before I got my role?

[Something_Smart]

Okay... Why? Why would I be unlikely to do it that way as town?

[Something_Smart]

I am by no means confident that DEB is town. I should hardly see why I'd have to be to make a vote that is by no means getting near a spare anytime soon.

I think a spare wagon on a quieter player like him could be very illuminating in a number of ways, primarily to shift the focus off of the louder players who have been dominating discussion.

[Something_Smart]

I don't think scum would quickly heal town chennis on day 1 like that.

Why not?

[Something_Smart]

Did SS town read on chennis all of a sudden change on day 3?

No it hasn't, I still have Elements town because of chennis.

But like I said, right now discussion is being dominated by a few people at least one of whom has a very incorrect grasp on the gamestate. So I don't want to rush the day because we need to end this day with more information than we ended the previous two with.

And poking and prodding at people by making a weird heal like DEB is a good way to get people to start talking.

[Something_Smart]

V/LA until Monday

I'll be around today, just wanted to make sure I didn't forget to declare it.

[Something_Smart]

I ain't voting anywhere until I figure out why that kill happened.

[Something_Smart]

For the record, I have something I want to say, but I want to wait until volxen answers your question.

[Something_Smart]

Sigh. I really need volxen to answer your question before I say anything else.

[Something_Smart]

Weird vote btw, considering his answer was pretty clearly non-alignment indicative.

[Something_Smart]

Sure, but why did you wait until he answered to vote him?

[Something_Smart]

Do you not think that, if DEB thought he would have a reason as town, he would have made one up as scum?

[Something_Smart]

Who did they think was going to get killed?

Oversoul.

[Something_Smart]

Me healing DEB when we're partners would be a ballsy move that neither of us have the skill to make work.

Especially since I explicitly didn't even want him healed and was doing it to see how people would react to it.

[Something_Smart]

Not particularly.

I have a scumread that isn't him, though.

[Something_Smart]

I'm not an alt, if that's what you're asking.

[Something_Smart]

Don't know, but I doubt this qualifies as a lurk anymore. It's probably RL-related.

[Something_Smart]

Volxen is scum. That's what I was waiting to say. I'm pretty sure 581 was him explaining why he killed flippy, because that explanation was not clear at all.

After what just happened, it's probably with Adorable...

[Something_Smart]

Adorable/volxen feels really easy... like if that's the team they barely tried at all to hide it.

[Something_Smart]

But even before that. Adorable's been soft pushing to spare volxen for a while.

[Something_Smart]

Wait, actually not. Am I crazy?

Someone's been townreading volxen all game, I kinda assumed it was Adorable because of 578, but I guess that post was completely out of left field.

[Something_Smart]

I guess it makes more sense now that I have the facts straight because Adorable and volxen weren't pushing to spare each other until they knew it would mean nobody would flip.

HEAL: Something_Smart

[Something_Smart]

I'm town btw.

Wish us luck.

[Something_Smart]

s_s i would like you to share your thoughts because i think os/adorable does it

Idk I still think volxen was scum over Oversoul but I don't think that really matters.

If you're willing to bet the game on Elements being town, then I think going Adorable would make the most sense. I don't THINK this is your scumgame, and if it is then I'm gonna have some words with all the townies who insta-spared you D1.

[Something_Smart]

Gonna need to reread spare chat but Chemist was townreading Adorable no? Why did he die over me?

[Something_Smart]

Adorable calling volxen a possible chennis partner looks so weird for a Adorable/volxen team.

[Something_Smart]

350 and 364

[Something_Smart]

like, perhaps the plan was adorable deepwolves and presumably volxen maybe flips and like that's an avenue to push me, or to get me off balance at least.

Is volxen's scumgame that bad? I seriously doubt a volxen/Adorable team would count on Adorable to deepwolf.

[Something_Smart]

I don't really think that I'd be capable of townreading Adorable confidently enough to vote somewhere else.

[Something_Smart]

They were victim blaming. Mislynches are almost never the fault of the player who was mislynched.

Defending yourself is rarely necessary, and when it is, it's best done in the form of specific arguments and references to prove that a particular behavior is not indicative of alignment for you. Not whatever you were doing.

[Something_Smart]

I'm not going to be the one to scumcase you, I'll tell you that right now.

[Something_Smart]

1- chennis said so
2-3- idk
4- her posts are, like, painfully forced

[Something_Smart]

Turns out no flips is pretty demoralizing, which is good. Pacifist was designed to be strong in theory but harder to pull off in practice.

With that in mind I'm demoralized. Will probably just hammer in a bit and cross my fingers.

[Something_Smart]

Even if I did change my mind, I'm not in a position to go to the effort of trying to change chennis's mind too.

Sorry if town.

VOTE: Adorable

[Something_Smart]

oof

[Something_Smart]

I thought this setup would be awesome. For the most part it seemed awesome.

I agree, it played out well. It put to rest a lot of my fears that pacifist is a dominant strategy.

[Something_Smart]

Muffet bossfight. It's not close.

Controversial opinion: ghost fight > spider dance.

[Something_Smart]

She spares an extra player when the core is reached. I kind of don't get how it's helpful really. Maybe S_S can explain how it is.

Yeah it's kinda a convoluted mess at this point but if the core is reached in Pacifist she gets to spare another player if she isn't killed that night.

It's helpful because it gives town another mislynch in Core.

[Something_Smart]

viewtopic.php?f=115&t=79730

[Something_Smart]

Like take SS for example. He was right about me being scum, but his reasoning for calling me scum was in reality NAI for me. The conclusion that I came to when I explained why Nips rather than Adorable was nightkilled is a conclusion that anyone closely following the game could easily come to.

It wasn't about why Adorable wasn't killed, it was about why flippy, a useless player, was killed over you or Oversoul. There's no guarantee that scum would necessarily follow the reads of Chemist over the reads of living players, and there's no guarantee that scum would even kill a towny player as opposed to killing someone unpredictable like Oversoul.

Yet you took those things for granted, without even thinking about them it seems, because of course you knew what scum were aiming for with that kill.