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Billy Pilgrim
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Post Post #72  (isolation #0)  » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:04 pm

Hi all, looks like we are moving out of RVS. Luca pinging me a bit both with the sheepy hop on and then with trying to redirect to Spangled. The fact that he based his vote off of conduct that had occurred ~ 20 posts earlier when he was the one attacking RQS for not moving the game forward enough also sticks out.

The redirection to Spangled in particular jumps out because Spangled admitted that his read was weak when he made it.

VOTE: Luca

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Post Post #76  (isolation #1)  » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:01 pm

Uh. . . @mod - I didn't vote Icon, I voted Luca.

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Post Post #85  (isolation #2)  » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:48 pm

@Spangled - I know this sounds stupid, but what ethos is saying seems to make sense to me. Townish vibes albeit still weak.

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Post Post #106  (isolation #3)  » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:13 am

In post 93, AaronFrost wrote:
In post 81, Spangled wrote:@Aaron
Feeling anything on Billy so far?

Seeing as he replaced into an inactive slot, not much. His reasoning for voting Luca makes sense, although I'm curious as to why no one has called you out for hopping on the Draynth wagon.


Its weird, but I liked how Spangled behaved there. It's early in the game so reads are gonna be weak. Spangled hops on the wagon while admitting that the read is weak. I feel like that fit the game state. He basically admitted that he was there because there wasn't a better place to be. At that point no one had even been wagoned yet. Luca threw me off because he seemed more confident than fit the game state. It threw me off more that this level of confidence needed to wait until after someone else had cased him.

I still view Spangled as pretty null. There's alot of asking questions not nearly as much explaining reasons. But when he does explain the reasons, like above it seems to come from a place where he's not pushing an agenda.

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Post Post #110  (isolation #4)  » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:11 am

In post 87, Spangled wrote:
In post 85, Billy Pilgrim wrote:@Spangled - I know this sounds stupid, but what ethos is saying seems to make sense to me. Townish vibes albeit still weak.

What do you mean ‘what eth0s is saying’? What points has he made that have resonated with you?


I think he accurately points out how weird a case built off of RQS would be, which leads to why he doesn't SR Spangled for posting them

I think he solidly interprets Luca's reasoning here and demonstrates the purpose in his question when the answer doesn't fit his expectation. He's both moving the game forward in asking the question and showing that he's not wedded to an agenda in how he pressures

here I think he shows that he's trying to read motivation and even though he doesn't agree with someone he's looking for why they made a post not what they posted.

I think his interaction in the 40s with Icon read as town. Then and I think he accurately points out that Spangled is looking for town cred where it probably isn't earned.

So pretty much everything up to post 77

Now sticks out a little bit in terms of holding back reasons, but depending on what he's holding back and his explanation of why, i'm willing to wait and see. Luca jumped out at me because I didn't like his explanation for holding it back.

So I'm leaning town on ethos, but I am interested in what he's holding back and why.

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Post Post #111  (isolation #5)  » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:07 am

In post 109, Luca Blight wrote:
In post 106, Billy Pilgrim wrote:
In post 93, AaronFrost wrote:
In post 81, Spangled wrote:@Aaron
Feeling anything on Billy so far?

Seeing as he replaced into an inactive slot, not much. His reasoning for voting Luca makes sense, although I'm curious as to why no one has called you out for hopping on the Draynth wagon.


Its weird, but I liked how Spangled behaved there. It's early in the game so reads are gonna be weak. Spangled hops on the wagon while admitting that the read is weak. I feel like that fit the game state. He basically admitted that he was there because there wasn't a better place to be. At that point no one had even been wagoned yet. Luca threw me off because he seemed more confident than fit the game state. It threw me off more that this level of confidence needed to wait until after someone else had cased him.

I still view Spangled as pretty null. There's alot of asking questions not nearly as much explaining reasons. But when he does explain the reasons, like above it seems to come from a place where he's not pushing an agenda.


Just because I wasn’t umming and erring like Spangled was, doesn’t mean I was supremely confident in my scumread; I think Draynth had like 4 posts at that point. I just believe it’s counter-productive placing a vote without any conviction behind it. Look at my early Spangled vote - that had conviction and yet was based on almost nothing. That’s the way I like to play.


What do you gain out of waiting for Icon's case before you type out what you did in the vote? I don't buy the behavioral shift rationale 1) because you laid it out there shortly after; and 2) you weren't really identifying ongoing behavior except "trying to look productive," and how is that going to change except to try harder?

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Post Post #116  (isolation #6)  » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:59 am

In post 114, eth0s wrote:@Billy
Let me ask you this:
Aside from wifom reasons, why would scum!me even say anything about draynth, previously considering voting him, or that I have private thoughts on him? I could avoid the situation entirely or just vote him for whatever reason I found compelling, if I wanted to ML him.

Sure it could potentially set me up to jump on the wagon later while potentially convincing people that I'm not following a wagon, but instead using my own pre-determined reasoning. But that just seems too suspicious if he flipped town anyway.

I know you arent scumreading me or anything but I just found it odd that my last post was the one you were most suspicious of. If anything I figured people would get scumpings for "pocketing Luca" or something along those lines.


I know the site meta is for town players to explain their reasons early and often. And that makes sense to me so the other town players, who arent informed who the others are can get a better sense of who else is town. And you explained the reason why scum you would do it. You'd hop a bandwagon based on something before the wagon started and ref back to your earlier post on these unstated reasons. While it would make you suspicious, yes, unless you were leaving a bunch of these lying around, which you aren't at the moment, it wouldn't look like you were just keeping your ML options wide open.

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Post Post #122  (isolation #7)  » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:46 pm

In post 121, AaronFrost wrote:
In post 94, Spangled wrote:
In post 93, AaronFrost wrote:
In post 81, Spangled wrote:@Aaron
Feeling anything on Billy so far?

Seeing as he replaced into an inactive slot, not much. His reasoning for voting Luca makes sense, although I'm curious as to why no one has called you out for hopping on the Draynth wagon.

Are you saying that my tentative entrance onto the wagon was call-out-worthy?

I'm saying that if Billy's going to say Luca is sheepy for hopping on the Draynth wagon, then why isn't he saying the same thing about you when you hopped on the wagon immediately after?


Did you read and ? What do you think about the reasoning there?

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Post Post #141  (isolation #8)  » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:05 am

I'm believing Luca's explanation at this point. Not that I agree with it, but you can town read someone you don't agree with.
UNVOTE: Luca

starts to feel like Spangled pushing for a mis-lynch. That use of "Lynch All Liars" really pings me. I get that he walked it back in post 132. But this play is starting to look scum looking around for where they can get a mis-lynch. I may have read Spangled's hop onto the Draynth wagon incorrectly. I also note that despite Spangled pretty much tunelling Luca, he didn't switch the vote. I'm curious about that because he admitted that when he hopped into Drayth it wasn't based on much at the time.
VOTE: Spangled

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Post Post #145  (isolation #9)  » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:45 pm

In post 144, Spangled wrote:
In post 141, Billy Pilgrim wrote: starts to feel like Spangled pushing for a mis-lynch. That use of "Lynch All Liars" really pings me. I get that he walked it back in post 132. But this play is starting to look scum looking around for where they can get a mis-lynch. I may have read Spangled's hop onto the Draynth wagon incorrectly. I also note that despite Spangled pretty much tunelling Luca, he didn't switch the vote. I'm curious about that because he admitted that when he hopped into Drayth it wasn't based on much at the time.
VOTE: Spangled

Okay. So. A few things — first, tunnelling is gunning for someone’s lynch. That is the point of tunnelling. So I don’t know how you read me and Luca’s exchange as tunnelling, particularly as I never vote for him.
As for the use of Lynch All Liars, I was illustrating a point — that being what I perceived as disingenuous was not good for town, which is why LAL is a thing people use.

Also, you say that it feels like me pushing for a mislynch. I am super confused as to what you think me having a fairly mild argument with someone — who I don’t vote — looks like, then — ‘cause if my conversations with Luca are not, I don’t know what is.

Also, what I assume is a question directed at me is not phrased as a question at all, but rather as a statement of your curiosity — this kind of rhetoric sounds like you’ve typed and re-typed this to get the right effect; for your audience (us) to gasp in shock and horror — this doesn’t sound like town, putting out their thoughts, it sounds like scum attempting to attract a reaction.

I’m not saying you’re necessarily scum for it — and my initial reaction (“this is scum”, frothing at the mouth, crazed red tinge to my eyes) was biased, given you voted me... But I’ll stand by the above post as scummy.


As for your first paragraph, fine I used the wrong word. I thought tunelling meant something akin to tunnel vision where you focused exclusively on one person. So tunelling, not if it means getting a lynch, but it wasn't inaccurate to say you were exclusively focused on Luca for a number of posts.

Your second paragraph is a misrep of what I said. I didn't say you were pushing for a mis-lynch. I said it felt like you were looking around for where you may be able to get one. It felt like you were throwing reasons out there that somebody else may hop onto. You called him disingenuous twice and discussed it in the context of Lynch all Liars. That to me looks like you're looking for someone to take up your case, and you even said that because of his lack of genuineness he must get mis-lynched alot.

I typed that exactly once, and it was on my phone. You think I typed and re-typed something and left a typo in the post? But fair, I should have asked you a question. Why I'd your vote on Draynth, which you admitted was based on minor concerns, when you were pinged by what you perceived as a lack of genuineness from Luca? And yeah, I threw it out there, because it generated a reaction in me and I wanted to know if it generated a reaction with anyone else. If I'm the only pinged by it then fine, I'm probably wrong. But if others find that to be a problem then maybe I'm onto something.

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Post Post #146  (isolation #10)  » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:46 pm

Also, that post felt really defensive. I know my vote wasn't random, but if that's how you respond with a pretty weak case, then that concerns me.

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Post Post #160  (isolation #11)  » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:59 am

In post 159, Draynth wrote:
In post 151, Iconeum wrote:I'm putting Billy as conf!town right now.

Care to elaborate on this?


Yeah, I'm curious on that one as well.

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Post Post #161  (isolation #12)  » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:21 am

In post 153, Spangled wrote:
In post 145, Billy Pilgrim wrote:Your second paragraph is a misrep of what I said. I didn't say you were pushing for a mis-lynch.

In post 141, Billy Pilgrim wrote: starts to feel like Spangled pushing for a mis-lynch.

It is difficult to forget an opinion, but easy to forget one that you did not actually feel. Still not saying you're scum, but I think this might be scum above >rand. VOTE: Billy Pilgrim
In post 145, Billy Pilgrim wrote: I said it felt like you were looking around for where you may be able to get one. It felt like you were throwing reasons out there that somebody else may hop onto. You called him disingenuous twice and discussed it in the context of Lynch all Liars. That to me looks like you're looking for someone to take up your case, and you even said that because of his lack of genuineness he must get mis-lynched alot.

I am throwing reasons out there, and they are things I have noticed and/or believe.
And I don't see how the last point is relevant. Whether or not I'm 'looking for someone to take my case up' has little to do with him 'being mislynched a lot'.
(Which was an insult unfair to you, Luca).

In post 145, Billy Pilgrim wrote:I typed that exactly once, and it was on my phone. You think I typed and re-typed something and left a typo in the post?

Fair. I didn't see that. Clearly you must just have a flair for the dramatic - or it was typed once, but well for your purposes. The point - that it is rhetoric, and feels to me kinda like you're trying to attract a reaction - still stands.


You are correct. My apologies. You didn't misrep what I said. I misrepped what I said. When I read your message I should have checked closer. You did use my exact language of feels like pushing for a mis-lynch.

So while my terminology was wrong, my bad for that, the sentiment was real. I feel like this was dangling some pretty strong accusations that you hoped someone else would pick up.

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Post Post #181  (isolation #13)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:42 am

In post 179, Luca Blight wrote:
In post 176, Iconeum wrote:Why is everyone questioning the town!billy reads?

Is there a good reason NOT to townread him? Can none see where this is coming from?


Looking at his ISO, I like - especially the point about Spangled wanting someone to take up his case. I wasn't sure about him after his opening post, but there is a feeling of honesty about his work since then. I have Pilgrim as a Town read - if he is scum then boy is he going to be a dangerous player, because he's playing a cracking game.

Incidentally, it's interesting how Spangled and Icon posted on the same minute, with Spangled now seeming to have vanished, conveniently missing Icon's request. It could be a coincidence, but given scum have day chat it could be that he wants to consult first before claiming.

I feel like I have to acknowledge that the second paragraph of that post I missrepped what Spangled had said. When I accused him of misrepping I was misrepping.

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Post Post #183  (isolation #14)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:58 am

In post 182, AaronFrost wrote:
In post 176, Iconeum wrote:Why is everyone questioning the town!billy reads?

Is there a good reason NOT to townread him? Can none see where this is coming from?

I agree that his posting so far seems townie, but it was the use of the phrase conf!town that threw me off. Why so much confidence on a D1 page 7 read?


That's also what my question was about. I'm only conf!town to me and scum.

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Post Post #186  (isolation #15)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:07 am

In post 185, Iconeum wrote:
In post 183, Billy Pilgrim wrote:That's also what my question was about. I'm only conf!town to me and scum.


townslip? :D


I don't understand what townslip means here in this context.

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Post Post #192  (isolation #16)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:00 am

Can you claim please Spangled?

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Post Post #194  (isolation #17)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:48 am

In post 193, dweller wrote:
In post 176, Iconeum wrote:Why is everyone questioning the town!billy reads?

Is there a good reason NOT to townread him? Can none see where this is coming from?

I don't understand why Iconeum is so sure about billy. Though billy has made some good points but so has everyone else. And we still need to see and know more about the people as the game progress. So at this stage he is a null for me. We need more information to base solid opinions that's why I think Iconeum is overestimating at this point.
But I would really like to know Billy's thoughts about it?

I don't know what you're asking me. Are you asking for my thoughts on Icon's read of me? Are you asking what I think about your read? Are you asking what I think of Icon's confidence level?

I'm gonna explain this in a meta way for you. I know that you're new, so I'm going to read your play through that lens. And as a new player myself, I know that it can be tough to get reads. But it's important to at least try. At the moment, it seems like you're not only not trying, but actively discouraging others from doing so. This is a low information game. Even in a scenario where someone claims cop and doesn't get counterclaimed, they could be lying. Even if the person that claimed cop says they read you last night and they correctly identified your role, they still could be lying. If you are looking for perfect information, then play a different game. Here you are analyzing the information you do have and using the one game mechanic you have (your vote) to try and resolve the game favorable to your team (obviously if you're scum or a PR you have an additional mechanic). But that's it. If you are trying to prevent people from forming reads or working together then that feels scummy. Icon saying he's reading me town didn't lock me that way, it just meant that he was acknowledging that my play felt town. As town players we want to know who is good to work with and who needs to be viewed a bit more suspiciously. Reading isn't just identifying scum, its also about identifying town players.

So while acknowledging that you're new, that last post pinged me and I have a bit of a scumlean on you at the moment.

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Post Post #196  (isolation #18)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:08 pm

In post 195, eth0s wrote:I'm gonna probably hold off on my readlist until day 2 tbh


Ew, this doesn't make me happy. It makes me happier that you said it out loud, but what do you gain by waiting until day2? Particularly when we haven't lynched yet.

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Post Post #198  (isolation #19)  » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:12 pm

Intents been posted, but Spangled hasn't claimed yet. Yo Spangled, what happened to all your activity?

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Post Post #406  (isolation #20)  » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:32 am

Man, why'd I have to eat that nightkill? Is it because Icon conf!townee me?


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