Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[CF Riot]

Role PMs

If you wish, you may use the private forum I have set up for you here.

Funneh. I don't random vote, but conversation has to start somewhere. And I just wanted to get first post. [=

[CF Riot]

whats a sign of anarchy? Riots, thats right.

Nah man, that just means I'm a real funny guy. Like, "Ha, dude you're a riot!"

Gimbo you know everyone was voting for you under the pretense that you'd come in acting overly defensive and such, so why did you just play into their hands like that? Just chill a little bit, let them start a random wagon on you, it doesn't mean you're going to get voted off. It's a game man, if they want to gang up on you for petty reasons just let them do it and brush it off your shoulder.

[CF Riot]

It was 5 hours past a day. 29 hours. (d'oh!)

[CF Riot]

*sigh* Ok, ummm. Gimbo, is dcorbe really your best guess at scum ATM or was your vote also a random? If not dcorbe, who do you find most scummy and why?

[CF Riot]

In my first game that got trainwrecked by a now-banned player, I also picked out a mafia because of his random vote and another minor post in the random/joke phase. At the time, my case was

very

weak against him, but it had caught my attention. The more I pressed it, the more he squirmed and eventually outed himself as scum. I agree with Spyre's methods, but disagree with the post saying "refusing to random vote is scummy." I don't random. In any of my games.

[CF Riot]

That's not contradicting in any way. I'm saying, yes you can read something from

any

post in the game, even random votes. I'm am not saying, "it is good to random vote and everyone should do it." I don't like to, but I see the need for conversation to get started one way or another. That's why I'm posting now, I feel like conversation stagnated and I don't have any real scum reads to give my opinion on, but I don't want to be a lurker or appear to be hiding myself from being read.

[CF Riot]

Sure that's fine. I don't mind being in the spotlight cause it should only clear me. Fire away.

[CF Riot]

Tyler.
Green.
Wtf??

Can you hand me some sunglasses? *squints*

[CF Riot]

Firestarter who does deserve a FoS from you? Recapping what's gone on, I noticed you have only 4 posts, one being a joke vote. I don't agree with your theory on reads in the random phase, but that post really didn't have much significance either. That was some major action for day one going on between K7 and FL, and you don't have a vote OR a FoS?

FoS Firestarter

One thing in your favor is the critical thinking that lead to your idea of FL/K7 setup, but I personally don't buy it. Too much of a reach for scum. K7 I think your "plan to test Forbidden" claim is weak. That was a pretty lame excuse for putting a vote on someone when they obviously didn't mind pulling other votes in.

Vote: Killa Seven

[CF Riot]

Hahaha, didn't something similar to this happen to you recently Spyre? Sounds like you vs. Battle Mage, only with less commitment on FL's part.

Okay at first I was leaning towards dumb plan by FL making him look scummy, but the more he posts he just sinks further and further. Consequently, that sort of makes me less confident about voting K7, although I still think his posts were very scummy, enough so to keep my vote for now.

Firestarter did you call me CF7?

[CF Riot]

First off, I'm sorry I haven't posted much in this thread. Going by the average rate of posting (as I perceive it) I think I'm still doing fine, but for my own personal preference, I wish I had more time for this thread. That said, this post in mainly focused on things relevant to me and those I suspect atm, and not much info regarding other events that have happened since my last post.

==Explanation of actions and answers.==

Feelings: Ok, wants the spotlight on him, but that never got followed up on. It should have been. I think anything like that always needs to be called. I apologize for joking about it if that got the situation forgotten about. Don't like the appearing townie. Also the first to vote K7 (and only one other than me too), and FoS' Firestarter on the noncommittal ness. To be honest, what I dislike is that he didn't even really mention me at first til I started posting a lot of the stuff that got me in this mess. He focuses more on K7. In fact, if I were scum I'd say his voting pattern made him one of my partners. The trouble is I'm not scum...but I wonder...if I were to flip town, it might look slightly better for people voting in a similar pattern to me...something to consider. Also, I'd like to see him come back and weigh in on current events. In the end, I actually lean a little scum on this.

OK, I never actually said I

want

the spotlight on me. I did say I don't mind it because I am town and as long as no one gets sucked into any scum deceptions, the more people inspect me the better as my play should reflect my role. I'm not saying you're twisting my words though, because I know that's not that big of a stretch. I just wanted to point out the actual way it is.

On voting K7, I saw what he did as scummy.

On FoS -> Firestarter, being non-committal is a good way to float under the radar. If you don't take a definite stance, you have a smaller chance of being questioned for your opinion.

On all my play regarding Forbid. Not to be rude but all of her play so far has been bad whether she is scum or town. At the point I voted K7, Forbid did appear scummy but I threw that off as bad play. Later, she continued to play scummily and so I voiced my opinion that while I hadn't suspected her before, the way she was playing was starting to make me think differently. Because my suspicion of K7 was based on the idea Forbid was town, as my suspicion of Forbid increased, my suspicion of K7 decreased. However, they are both under suspicion by me and both for good reason. At the time, I decided to leave my vote on K7 as I felt he was more likely scum.

==New ideas.==

I don't think

both

Forbid and K7 are scum, because the ties don't work out right. I do think one of them may be. Because

none

of the posting I've seen since my last response from Forbid has cleared her in anyway, and because

most

of her posts have made her look more scummy, I fully support a Forbid lynch. If she flips mafia, it will remove all suspicion of K7 from my mind. If town, it will not increase my suspicion of K7 as scum, but I will continue to suspect him with equal intensity as I have up to this point.

Unvote. Vote:Forbiddanlight

[CF Riot]

Players to watch.

*Gimbo: I disagree with a Gimbo

vote

purely on the context of the Forbid lynch being based on play that could be scum OR poor town, and it being a mislynch. Gimbo's main suspiciousness comes from that same type of play, and I don't want to be wrong for the same reasons again. However, he is suspicious enough to continue being inspected.

*Killa Seven: He was my original vote and like I said, I will continue to suspect him now that Forbid has been proven town. Posts like this:

its k7 and i didnt "hop on"

Riot Added Text: No defense for accusations against him or new input.

after being questioned for lurking, and the prelynch post bother me. It seems to me like the entire town would like more K7 posting. (And I am also slightly interested to see if SpyreX will need to be adding to his signature soon.)

*Firestarter: A FoS from me earlier in the game, never followed up on because of lack of time and the Forbid wagon. A reread is necessary, and I will be watching all of his new posts closely.

*FaerieLord/Manito: They are the current big issue. Hadn't felt much suspicion of either one before this point, but because of the head to head posting and their position in the spotlight, I will do a reread of both to form an opinion.

My vote returns to its pre-Forbid position.

Vote: Killa Seven

[CF Riot]

I've been rereading as promised. My last post mentioned Gimbo(pre-Llama), Fire, Faerie/Manito, and K7 as suspects.

Since Llama has replaced, I've gotten protown reads. If it had been anyone but Gimbo I'd still suspect Llama a bit because the play right before Gimbo got kicked was really crazy. But everyone's said really crazy is the norm for Gimbo, so I'll give Llama a clean slate and judge him purely by his own play.

K7 still hasn't posted. I reread all his posts up till now, and a few of them seem sort of townish, but the majority still seem scummy to me, and he's still lurking.

Firestarter has been a tough read. I disagree with 90% of what he's said this game, but that alone doesn't mean he's scum either. Going back there are some things that stand out to me as townish, just like K7. The post asking people not to hammer Forbid seems genuine. However the post right after that he says, "BTW, Im not trying to stop players from voting [Forbid], Im merely asking for a thourough look through the posts that were made since the FL/K7 exchange flared up." He specifically asks that no one hammer, then claims he's not trying to stop anyone from hammering. This seems to be the theme with him the entire game. Pushing an idea, then saying it's okay to disagree with him or he's unsure so he's going to keep his options open. I also think some of the reasoning behind his Gimbo vote is totally bogus. One has to do with his apology outside the game and another has to do with how he was removed.

The Faerie/Manito duel has been interesting. I'm siding with FL on this one. I think most of Manito's case is stretching or plain wrong. In post 322 he accuses FL of ignoring a post by SpyreX. It wasn't really a question, more like a request, but still FL seemed to directly answer that request in post 258. There are lots of examples like this where Manito is accusing FL of things that FL either hasn't done, or aren't scummy the way Manito is painting the out to be. For instance, a lot of people (not just Manito) have found a problem with FL saying he doesn't vote often then voting Manito early 1.5. I'm the same way though, and to me saying "I don't vote often" doesn't mean "I vote slowly." I took it to mean he doesn't switch his votes very often or vote for several different people all in the same day. It seems like FL has decent grounds and is confident in his case against Manito, so his timing isn't based on when the stages of the game change, but when he's decided his opinion of who he finds suspicious. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Apart from Manito's case against FL being flawed, his general play before the fight started was very weak. I don't think agreeing with given opinions is scummy, especially in a 16 person game. However, I do feel like Manito is being very noncommittal in more ways than one. The way he asks for someone to do something about conversation coming to a standstill but not taking a stance himself in post 292 feels scummy. In that same post he -sort of- indicates a suspicion of FL himself, but then gives the disclaimer "but that is only a first impression, because your posts, while frequent and filled with quotes, lack any REAL substance." And again, in the way he puts in his vote for FL

after

SpyreX starts the vote himself. Manito gave his entire PbPa of FL with no vote. Sees and responds to FL's D1.5 vote and doesn't vote. Then after he confirms support from another player, goes in and adds his own actual vote. I know he's said this is time related, but that seems pretty convenient.

Lastly, I have a new suspect in Knight of Cydonia. His attitude during the Forbid lynch seemed over-the-top. Now the way he changes his vote from Gimbo to FL seems out of place to me. In post 348 he says he's noticed how FL's play has changed since yesterday, but says he's still torn because he's "hard to judge". This is where he unvotes Gimbo. His next post is 351 and he says he's leaning town on FL because he has good posting under the new heat. But then right after that with only one 1-line post from FL in between, he votes FL for "

schizophrenia

, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way

his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure

. " Two of those being things he'd said weren't that scummy two posts ago.

[CF Riot]

I've been semi busy lately, but I'm trying to address all the questions I've gotten since my last post. I've actually opened the reply box on 3 separate occasions and continued my post, but still haven't finished. (I'm saving it in a text doc, so it's not been lost.) Just frustrated that I'm still not done, so I thought I'd let everyone know I'm working on it.

[CF Riot]

even though it has pretty much been covered that Post #258 wasn't really cases, but more fluff deductions without much in the way of additional opinion or substance, outside of summarizing the post count/content of 3 individuals, myself included.

I disagree. Pointing out the low post count is expressing the idea that two people are trying to slip under the radar. He also explicitly gave his opinions on Gimbo, saying while eccentric as always, Gimbo usually doesn't sit the fence like he had been.

On your case being flawed, I think the "change in playstyle" case is logical, but wrong. Suspecting him for refusing to start other cases before handling Forbid was valid, but when it was pointed out that this was a problem FL proceeded to show his cases. Because of this, I think that point is no longer of the same value it was before. Being unsure of Forbid is not scummy. Forbid's case was confusing, and one should not be forced to agree or disagree with a lynch they are unsure of. Not voting D1 is a valid scum tell, but a situational one. I think in FL's case it was not scummy because he came in as a replacement once Forbid's wagon was at full steam, so nearly all of the posting revolved around that. This could make it difficult to get a read of anyone else before the lynch came.

Do you have no response to my suspicion of you outside your FL case?

@Spyre: Damn you. You make me put so much time into this game. Rereads!
-->Joubert doesn't have much content in this game. I don't have a good read of him in either direction. He did slip onto the Forbid wagon relatively quietly, but from how much of a case had been presented against Forbid by the town as a whole, it becomes a fairly weak tell to say he didn't give his own reasons. If I had to choose, I'd say more town than scum, because he does ask some decent questions and spreads them out among several people.
-->Bogre same, very little content. Sort of active during the Forbid wagon, but like it has been pointed out no real original opinions. I don't find any contradictions in his posts, and I don't see a motive for him to lurk right now. Again, neutral leaning town.
-->LTG appeared normal up to page 12. I personally didn't find the "random counter-wagon" idea to be scummy. I took note of your(Spyre's) clue about LTG and Firestarter both throwing suspicion into the K7/Forbid mess without voting. I hadn't noticed that on my own, so I'm glad you pointed it out. That was the first thing that caught my eye, LTG's explanation for it wasn't too strong, but not really scummy either. I didn't agree with his post 374. He says he should vote more, then gives his reasons for suspecting FL, then doesn't vote. Also I do

not

think Firestarter leaving his vote in the same place when Gimbo became Llama is any indication of towniness. In 394 he also says he "doesn't like Gimbo/Llama" (who Firestarter is voting for) but says Gimbo's actions are par for his town play and Llama hasn't done anything wrong. Basically, he's saying he suspects them but isn't going to make a case because he admits he has nothing to go on. Also he makes his vote for K7 is wishy washy enough to stay there if a wagon builds but leave if no one else votes with him because his reasoning is "lurker motivation". LTG is my only possible scum read of the 4, but the case I have on him now is weaker than my own cases against KoC and Manito.
-->armlx is the only player I didn't go back and do a reread on because I've been keeping up with his posts the entire game. All his comments have been logical and helpful enough to point town. They have also been concise enough and timed well enough to be good scum. Basically I don't have anything in game to suspect him for, but he's the kind of player that worries me because he is so reserved. I won't make cases on that though, so armlx gets protown read because he's active, helpful, and gives no scum tells.

@Joubert 406: No it is not the same. I didn't think Gimbo was scum in the first place, but said he is erratic enough to watch. I also made this point

before

he was replaced, and after Llama came in I dropped him to neutral. KoC had said FL was looking townish, and hadn't put much emphasis on his suspicions of Gimbo either. Once Gimbo got switched out, he then votes for FL, even though he was leaning town on him 1 post before.

FL 409: OK, now you actually have screwed up. "any vote I posted would be lost or considered scummy" is an amazing scum tell. Votes that are based on solid ground are never scummy, and are only called so when scum themselves lie to make it that way. The only people who must worry about their votes looking scummy are scum, because they know before they place the vote that it is "wrong".

KoC 412: Tunnel vision is bad, so it's not okay to just say "so what?".
KoC 432: Saying the Gimbo/Llama switch took him off your list does not explain leaning town on FL in one post then voting him the next with no new posts from him to go by.

This is the order of events.
1. You point out you notice FL's playstyle has changed.
2. You say you are unsure of him.
3. You say you're leaning town on FL because he's

posting better

.
4. FL makes 1 post.
5. You vote FL.

This game is crazy. LoS would be;
----
Manito
KoC
FaerieLord
K7 (current vote)
Firestarter
LTG (barely)
----

Lists should never get that big. =(

[CF Riot]

2 entire pages later before he posted a response? Unlikely.

It wasn't 2 entire pages, because the question was at the very bottom of one page, and his response was middle/near top of the other. The exact number of posts in between was 35 and as FL said, it was less than 24 hours.

I saw the evidence just as many of us saw it, and I placed my vote (how is that non-committal?).

I was referring to your vote of Fae not Forbid. It was non-committal because you posted your case without a vote, then after someone else voted Fae you voted him too.

Actually, this is one spot I really disagree with you CF - it's much better to have an opinion one way or another versus just letting it slide. Furthermore, the arguments for NOT posting something have been very irritating and, ultimately, not town.

I agree he shouldn't be let off without an opinion, I just mean you should never be forced to lock in a vote when you're still undecided about a person, especially in the context of Forbid's situation where only 1 or 2 votes were left before she was lynched. Not saying it's okay that he didn't have

any

vote, just he shouldn't be reprehended for not having a definite stance on Forbid.

Were you going to say anything about the four suspects you asked me to look at? Was there a reason you picked those people, or a reason you asked

me

to give an opinion on them?

look who leapt to FL's defence as soon as heat came down: Llama and CF Riot.

I concede to originally supporting Fae, but as of his post 409 I'm done with that. I don't see much real grounding for the original cases against him, but this is a very damning statement to make.

I made another post last night with you in it at the bottom of page 18, did you miss that too?

[CF Riot]

I've been really behind in all my games. Sorry.

If he'd remained consistent with the style I said made me lean town on him, my vote probably wouldn't be where it is.

There was

one

post from him between when you defined this style and when you voted FL. I'm having a hard time reading him, but if he does flip scum, you had some of the worst reasons for finding him out. This is why you look fishy.

FS 469 gives a lot of suspects with very medium intensity on most of them, which

could

be setting up grounds to either vote for someone who gains more heat, or defend someone who starts to come off as town. That said, I have a large number of suspects at the moment too, so I can't blame him for that. Overall good post, reads town.

Completely independent of context, I think if a few people you suspect as scum all vote for one person, it is a valid reason to strengthen your view of that person as town. (This is in regards to Manito/Llama)

The Bogre thing is bad. Don't know what to make of it.

The posting between armlx and FS makes me lean more scum on FS more town on Arm. I think Arm's case is better, and I think FS isn't really pointing out scummy play by Arm, he's just pointing out lack of input(in his eyes) and calling it scummy. (I wrote this, then as I read on...) FS totally drops his case against Arm and never defends himself.

The one outstanding thing in KoC's favor in my mind right now is he points out what FL said after Gimbo's hammer. Earlier I thought this a weak case, but I noticed FL has never touched it. I think a lot of the cases against him are weak and being repeated over and over, but he really hasn't answered this one. Still I find KoC very scummy.

I've had my vote on K7 all of 1.5 because I wanted to build him some pressure to get some posts out of him. It's taken until now to get 3 votes on him, but he's actually at least

said

he's going to post.

People I'd be down to vote for:
Firestarter
K7
Manito
KoC

The only reason KoC is at the bottom is because of the one FL argument I mentioned. Before that I felt really strong about him. I'd felt like FL was town most of today then he slipped up saying how worried he was about his vote making him look scummy and now the dodging of this question of KoC. I'm too unsure of FL to vote him, and too many of my suspects are pushing his lynch. I'm not saying he should be lynched, but his role would personally give me a lot of info to go on.

[CF Riot]

KoC's post is also bad because

if

the scenario was K7 is town and Corin and KoC are scum, killing K7 first gets rid of an innocent and by KoC's faulty logic leaves him no obligation to press Corin. This also leaves us at night, giving KoC the ability to kill Llama if he chooses to avoid further pressure of Corin or himself. This is also lining up lynches, which is bad regardless of context. This is all scenario speculation, not my actual opinions of who is or isn't scum. This increases KoC's scumminess in my eyes.

I'm willing to back a FS or KoC wagon, and both of them are pressing the K7 lynch atm so I'm going to

UNVOTE

.

[CF Riot]

I never suggested a Corin lynch or vote this entire game. I also had a LoS with 6 different people in it at one point (page 18). I

DO

think K7 is scummy, thus voting him most of D1 and all of D1.5 until my last post. I stated I pulled my vote from him because you and FS are both on his wagon and you are both very scummy. Also, I hate the way K7 is lurking/posting (that seems like a contradiction but you get the point) but that is all I have to go on. If he lives longer, I get more posts from him thus better read. My case on you is NOT based on your last post. It is strengthened by your last post but built on multiple tells I've pointed out for a few pages now. Almost everything you just said about me is wrong.

@LF: KoC's one saving grace was he pointed out something scummy Fae did that Fae never defended. I was leaning very strongly on Fae being town until post 409 and now this dodging has made it worse. If Fae turned up scum, the intensity KoC put into his wagon would make me believe KoC is town. That's purely if though. The majority of KoC's case against Fae apart from that one point has been weak in my eyes, and stretching during parts. The way he shoots between his votes back and forth trying to get any popular suspect offed is suspicious as well. I think KoC has a much higher reason to be lynched, but with that 1 catch holding me back.

FS has less to go on. He was noncommittal early D1 which is why I noticed him in the first place, but I stopped paying attention to him when the K7/Forbid discussion got hot. The interactions between him and Armlx make him look more suspicious because of how he's acting. He posts a large case against Arm then pulls it when Arm pushes back, and never answers any of Arm's accusations. So FS has less (not

little

, just less) reason to be lynched, but no catches holding me back.

Like I said, I'd be just fine with either. ATM I'd say KoC is better. His role would give me info about a few other players no matter what he flipped, and my suspicion of him is very high.

[CF Riot]

I'm not going to call you out on it. I was going to do it pretty soon myself. Now, onto better things

Faerie what was this referring to/why did you say it?

@LF: I don't mean to be noncommittal. I will very eagerly take some responsibility and vote either one of my suspects. Like I said, I'd pick KoC over FS. The only reason I haven't put the vote there is neither lynch has much support and I want to

lynch

them not just suspect them. If you really want a way to go back and reference who was laying low and who was actually committed to what they said, this one's for you.

CF Riot thinks Knight of Cydonia and Firestarter are SCUM.

Armlx who else looks scummy to you apart from FS?

FS you said you made a case on Arm because of constant 1-lining and no input, but that you ultimately read town. Now in your response to his PBPA you point out some things he does saying "Reeks of scum". Do you think Arm is or is not scum? What is your current LoS after K7?

SweatpantsNinja is there any commonly used abbreviation for you name? SPN or Ninja or Pants? I ask because apparently people like to call me CF more than Riot, which bothers me but I guess is okay. More importantly, do you have a LoS yet?

[CF Riot]

FL I know you've been answering the same questions over and over, but I really really don't ever remember seeing an answer for this one. I know what other people have said it was about, but you never say they're right or defend yourself. If you have and I'm simply missing it please link me to that post or give me the post number, I'll look it up.

I can tell you now, I'm town.

Well why didn't you say that earlier? You're pretty much cleared now.

(sarcasm in green) But on a serious note, I appreciate you weighing in with your interpretation of things, but if I direct a question at another player please hold off on giving them until

that

person has answered.

FS, don't sweat it. CFR is fine, I just felt like whining. You're actually in the majority on that one. It's just Riot is my actual handle, CF is a group tag. So when people call me CF it's like calling Kurt Cobain Nirvana.

Also I asked if you have any other suspects ATM. Response?

A lot of people have FS on their lists, but Arm is the only one voting him. He seems to be a consistant #2 for everybody. I'm up for a FS wagon if it will gain some steam.

Vote: Firestarter

[CF Riot]

I'm just heading out the door so no time for real post, (haven't even read this whole page yet) but I'd like to respond to FS: I didn't see the post you made before mine, I was in the reply box for a while because I was doing things away from the computer. I promise to answer your questions in my very next post but it may or may not be today because I'm going to see Dark Knight tonight.

[CF Riot]

K7 looked scummy to me day one. For the first few posts between him and Forbid, K7 looked much worse in my eyes. However after K7 stopped posting, Forbid kept it up and made herself look worse and worse with every one. In the end, it was hard to ignore the scumminess coming from her, so I switched my vote, though I still suspected K7. Today, I returned with that same suspicion, but the lurking through the first half of the day didn't give me a real case to build. Recent posts have been better, but still scummy about half of the time. I'm getting a scum read, but it's a cloudy one. I also suspect FS and KoC, and both of them are pushing the K7 vote. This makes me reluctant to vote K7. On top of all this, I feel like if I were wrong about K7, I wouldn't learn much from his role post-lynch.
----
Summary: K7 is playing scummily, but I would rather not lynch him today as I think more days will strengthen my read on him.

Scum targets would be:
KoC
FS
Manito/K7/Faerie (Bottom three ranked in order of preferred lynch, left to right. All listed as they are very close together in level of suspicion.)

@FS: Your LoS is 9 different people? Is the base of suspicion simply voting Forbid? I think this is a question dodge. It doesn't commit to any player over another, and doesn't state any personal opinion of the players on the list. The blanket "lynched Forbid" reasoning is weak, and soft enough to run away with other people's cases if they become popular.

Why is being number 2 to vote you suspicious? I understand the logic behind "voting other than #1 suspect -> scummy" but I think the situation explains my action.

@LTG: But I think Arm is town and I think FS is scum. I thought FS was scummy D1, but didn't focus on him enough for a real read. What Arm points out strengthens my suspicion, but it is not the entirety of it.

To your post 711, I disagree completely. There's no reason why Arm(assuming he is scum) wouldn't vote for another scum buddy at this point in the game. It could very easily appear genuine but go along without consequence if it was on a person who never got wagoned. Voting a scumbuddy doesn't always mean they want to lynch/bus them.

@Joubert: So scum or not? Bad grammar and sarcastic remarks don't necessarily merit a scum tell, especially without context.

@LF: I'd prefer not to lynch a lurker today, but of the 4 I'd choose Joubert. Bogre has no read whatsoever. K7 I want a better read on, which I think we'll get with time. I have no real scum read on Corin who appears to be a little more active than Joubert.

To the town in general. We all have our different suspects with different levels of intensity by which we suspect them. However one thing I think everyone should consider when voting is, "If lynched, which of my suspects' roles will give me the most information about remaining players?" For example, if right at this very second we lynched Bogre, whether he flipped scum or town I don't think it would lead towards any other players or help clear any other players. I know Bogre isn't one of the more popular lynches, he was just a very good example of what I mean.

[CF Riot]

do you really think he's going to be stupid enough?

Please don't make me answer this. (Kidding!!)

But seriously, about letting him live, I don't mean so we can see if he makes posts linking himself to scum we find. I just mean general tells from his remaining play this game. It's nice to be able to find a link between players that can bring one down with another or clear up one after the other is gone. You don't

have

to have that though. I feel like if we just keep an eye on him for another day or half day, I personally would get a better feel towards scum or not. I feel like I'm really defending K7 now even though I've wanted him lynched both days so far. =/ Strange.

@Corin: 1 vote does not constitute starting a wagon. Especially in a game this size.

@KoC: If you were right about a scum being one of the people on the K7 wagon, who would it be and why?

Ugh. WIFOM, much?

Also, stop doing this. You do it in half of your posts and it annoys me. Just say "I think this is WIFOM."

@FS: What was the point of detailing all the people you've attacked? I'm not assuming there isn't a point, I just missed it. Also, your new LoS has only 2 people, and you're saying Arm only has a 60% read from you. Does this mean you're 50/50 on everyone else? It seems like you should have a little better read than this ATM.

[CF Riot]

@FS: What was the point of detailing all the people you've attacked? I'm not assuming there isn't a point, I just missed it. Also, your new LoS has only 2 people, and you're saying Arm only has a 60% read from you. Does this mean you're 50/50 on everyone else? It seems like you should have a little better read than this ATM.

Answer please.

[CF Riot]

Simple... My overview over K7's behavior is that he uses very bad grammar and syntax, and that he's quite nonchalant about the game, with a few insignificant posts scattered through and

witty remarks

...

I took this to mean sarcasm/joking that doesn't apply to the game. I was referring to your read of K7, not my own. You also did not answer the question. From where you stand, do you see scum or town?

[CF Riot]

I predict mislynch. I still want KoC and FS gone, but I finally suspect Corin with his vote just now and I suspect Coug now too. He says he's waiting before he votes for an explanation then later votes anyway before getting one. I appeal to the people on K7's wagon I've thought were town so far, SpyreX, TSN, unvote please. There are better lynches today.

[CF Riot]

Ok this has stopped being helpful discussion and is now bickering. FS refuses to see meta as relevant, there's no point in giving him reasons why it is. He just doesn't care. Armlx uses meta when he plays, so there's no point telling him not to for this one case because this is how he works. You disagree, just drop it.

Corinthian has been pretty against [Killa] throughout the game, AFAIK, althoguh I have to admit, he didn't give a reason in his vote post.

However, I don't like the way K7 is trying to push attention onto a policy lynch - isn't it better to lynch someone incredibly scummy, who's been active, than to lynch someone who has been mildly scummy, but less active?
This isn't a game of lynching less active players, it's a game of lynching scummy ones - like killa.

Wrong. Corin only weakly pointed suspicion at K7, and was much more vocal about FL. He's switched now because that wagon's not going anywhere, and K7's looks like it is. What K7 is doing is not even close to a policy lynch. The way he's voting is bad because it's making him look scummier but it makes sense because he has to try to run up a wagon to overtake his own to survive. His vote on Corin has more meaning behind it than Corin's vote on Killa.

I'm also starting to see you stretch how active K7 was in "steering the Forbid lynch". He was the first to vote her (actually second after a random from, interestingly enough, Firestarter) and he wasn't popping in to guide it from the side because he never popped in until the wagon was almost full. He never said anything about thinking Forbid was town either, that is another stretch. KoC is using whatever he can dig up against K7 and blowing it up to make it seem more sinister than what it really is. He's doing a damn good job of it too apparently, although I will say Killa is helping him a lot.

KoC is scum. I'm more sure of it now than ever. FS is most likely scum. Manito could be, but I'd rather lynch those I have a better read on now. Corin could be, but I personally can't read him that well.

[CF Riot]

FS if you think Arm is dodging your questions it's not my responsibility to bust him for it. I don't think he was, but like I said it's your squabble not mine. I've never meta'd anyone in my life. I haven't even completed any games on this site either, so I'm the last person that needs to be making opinions based on how someone "usually" acts. I'd like to note that you're saying you don't like meta and want Armlx to disregard it for K7, but you're

asking

him to use it on you. ???

As I pointed out in my PBPA, he also at two points in Day 1 implies that he knows fobiddan isn't town.

No he doesn't. What happened to saying he was steering the Forbid lynch? You decided not to use that anymore since I pointed out he wasn't?

Simple... My overview over K7's behavior is that he uses very bad grammar and syntax, and that he's quite nonchalant about the game, with a few insignificant posts scattered through and

witty remarks

...

I took this to mean sarcasm/joking that doesn't apply to the game. I was referring to your read of K7, not my own. You also did not answer the question. From where you stand, do you see scum or town?

JOUBERT, answer please! This question is 6 pages old.

LF: I like the run down on Corin. The problem is I want other lynches, and while what you have on Corin is good, there isn't much of it. I want to see what (if anything) Corin will say in his defense. If we get some decent interaction from that I'll make a move. If he doesn't weigh in with some decent content at all, I'll take that as good enough too.

[CF Riot]

You already gave your reasons, they're in my quote. I want to know if you're saying he's scum or he's just annoying town. This is a major question dodge by you. Again.

FoSsy FoSsy

[CF Riot]

No, thats incorrect...

Incorrect how?

That is, has armlx read my only previously completed game??

If he had, he may have a different read on me

, and I invite you to do so too CFR, seeing as you place some interest in Meta's with your dismissing remark about me not thinking they are relevant.

You ARE asking him to meta you, with the reasoning that you hope it will change his mind about you. You ARE apparently at least a little bothered by whether he uses it.

[CF Riot]

We're still split on killa seven vs. Corinthian right now, and I agree that both are scummy. I ask everybody in this game: Which of those two do you feel is scummier: K7 or Corin?

Don't either/or the town. I think KoC and FS both look far scummier than either of these people. If you held me down and forced me to pick between those two I'd vote Corin, but as the majority of the town is either split between them or unconvinced of both, I say we drop them today and find someone more people like.

If I remember right, more than a few people said FS was suspicious but none of them had a vote on him. We're all frustrated about the current wagons being stuck in stasis and FS continues to look scummy to me, so why don't we try him on for size today and pick up on K7 and Corin tomorrow after we see what the mafia does?

Also, if that plan doesn't fly, if it comes down to a lurker vote I'm throwing one at Joubert.

ZOOM ZOOM ZOOM

killa seven - 5 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin, Joubert)
Corinthian - 4 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch, 5 at deadline.

-Mod

[CF Riot]

By saying lynch FS today and use the NK to determine who to go after tomorrow just is stupid as well.

Ouch. [=

I don't want to lynch a lurker. However I should point out that lurking has been a major point against BOTH K7 and Corin. I simply wanted to note that if it came to a lurker vote, I'd rather get rid of Joubert than either of them. Also, I believe I FoS'd him just a few pages ago, so it's not out of the blue.

Also, if 5 people have K7 as their number one and think Corin is town, and 4 people have Corin as their number one and think K7 is town, but 9 people have FS as their number two, I would consider FS the better lynch. I don't know that this is the situation we have here, I'm just pointing out that a compromise is not as crazy of a suggestion as you make it out to be.

Forget the NK stuff I guess. I've always thought examining it was helpful, but I'm seeing a lot of people regard this as too WIFOM to be useful.

@FS: Who looks like they're about to be lynched? K7 and Corin have both been around these numbers for a while and not many people look like they're about to sway. Are you asking if I've looked at those two, or if I've looked at the other people on the vote count after them? I've given an opinion on both K7 and Corin if that's what you're asking.

[CF Riot]

lol.

[CF Riot]

armlx -> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord -> Corin, Manito, Firestarter
SpyreX -> FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter -> Corin, K7, Manito

CF Riot -> KoC, Firestarter, Manito

Corinthian - K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter
LaptopGun -> armlx, Corin, Joubert/KoC
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja -> Corin, Firestarter, K7
orangepenguin -> K7, FaerieLord, KoC/Corin
Manito
StrangerCoug -> Corinthian, killa seven, FaerieLord

Brilliant idea. 4 left.

[CF Riot]

You put me on there 4 times. The erroneous vote is on K7, putting him in actuality at 9(+1).

KoC states in post 745 he is suspicious of Firestarter, which is not reflected in your guess votes. He appears to be pro-town on Corin.

SC's vote flop is noted, although I don't know what I think about it.

[CF Riot]

KoC case:

During the Forbid lynch, KoC was fervently pressing the lynch and constantly posting his confidence that Forbid was scum. This seemed over the top, like looking good for the camera.

He starts D1.5 with Fae (a popular suspect) in his sights, but claims to be unsure. When he puts his vote on Fae, it is done shortly after declaring a more town read of him, with no new posting coming from Fae that would change KoC's mind. The posts to look at for this are 348 through 368. Notice Spyre and Manito post a lot between KoC's contradictory posts, but Fae himself only makes one 1-line post. It appears to me that KoC decided momentum was building against Fae, so he decided to add his vote to get the wagon moving.

Post 628 The logic is faulty because if he is scum, after gaining LF's support he leaves himself no obligation to help LF after lynching a townie.

Post 637 Nearly every single statement he makes regarding me is incorrect. This is not opinion based, it is factual. My response is the post directly after his. This is scummy because it is OMGUS and making a ghost case.

His cases against K7 have stretched the facts far beyond what they really are. For instance, he makes multiple posts declaring that K7 was steering the Forbid wagon. I contest this idea in post 816, and in his following posts about K7 he drops that point from his case. He also claims K7 made a scum-slip in implying he knew Forbid was town. The posts he cites for this are post 120 and post 315. This is another stretch.

His votes have all been on popular targets. Forbid during her misdirection. Gimbo early today after the "shit post" and other eye catching Gimbo play. Fae when Manito and Spyre were pushing his lynch. K7 now that his wagon has gained steam.
----
In summary, KoC is blending in with the crowd. His support is always behind a target that has the attention of other votes to diffuse blame. His cases are built mostly on extreme (mis)interpretation of posts.
----
----
RE: Corin. Why do you refer to yourself in the 3rd person in your last post?

KoC posts suspicion of FL here.
" of K7 here.
" of FS here.
This is the base of my speculation.

After rereading, my assumption that KoC sees you as town are up for interpretation. There are several posts where he weighs your actions against K7's in your favor, but there are also many posts stating he is willing to lynch you today. In context, you may actually be more likely to be on his list than FS. Sorry for being biased.

[CF Riot]

K7 that's 2 posts in a row. Please fill out a 3 person list of preferred lynch for today, in order of most preferred.

When was KoC supposed to be back again? I looked for his V/LA post but couldn't find it. I don't want him replaced for good either, I want him around to argue with.

1 week. Lynch?

[CF Riot]

This is true, however I don't see them using this to their advantage, as if a single player showed noticeable change in playstyle after they got high marks on the list, we would surely notice. Or, I would at least. And again, if the player has low marks or isn't on the list at all, they have no motivation to change their playstyle anyways, so it ends up being nothing more than an ego boost. A more detrimental down side is the fact that they can see if a person they thought they could get bandwagoned actually isn't pulling enough suspicion, thus letting them focus on those who are.

LTG: Seeing you currently have no support in lynching Arm, and seeing the current trend in people's opinions, who would you like to lynch? Are you going to attempt a better case of him for us, or change your vote to someone else? What do you think of the cases against KoC? (Mine and LF's.)

[CF Riot]

I suspect that I will end up switching vote to the person I feel is one of [Armlx's] scum partners.

Who would that be? I would very much like you to take a better look at the actual cases against KoC, rather than try to guess why he doesn't want to be removed from the game.

Corin's at 5 and K7's at 4 now. We're moving further from a lynch rather than closer to one. FS wagon GO! KoC wagon GO!

[CF Riot]

So arm, if the vote count was the same Thursday as it is right now, would you change your vote or leave it where it is, knowing Saturday is the deadline?

[CF Riot]

Not to imply that this was a group effort, but what we are doing is not scummy. However, I don't mind you knowing how I feel about our leading mislynches. The way everyone acts about K7 seems fake. The people pushing his lynch and the way they're doing it makes me think he's being set up. Corin did some shady things, and I didn't like the bunch he was voting with early on, so I would rather him die. I might be able to extract something from his role later, and I'm just that against K7's lynch. I still don't like the Corin case though, and I'm skeptical about this many people really looking at it and saying "This is the best lynch today."

That said, I wouldn't switch my vote to him to save K7. I'm not going to vote either of them. I have my scum picks. I'm tired of D1 though. I bet scum from this game are really annoyed. 44 pages and they haven't even gotten a chance to talk to each other.

[CF Riot]

What info could you gain from a real lynch that you couldn't from a deadline lynch? And now that you've brought it up yourself Spyre, I've been wondering, why

are

you voting your number 3 pick, instead of maybe FS? Corin only has 6 votes at this point, and there are that many people who would like FS lynched as well. I'm proposing the theory that some of the people putting FS on their 3 pick list are doing it for show, and are scum. They don't actually want him lynched, but rather would like to say they want him lynched to avoid suspicion from people like Arm and I.

And now I see as I write this, Arm is of the opposite opinion. (sigh)

[CF Riot]

So tomorrow, if one of these guys die, is the other going to be right back up there as the vote leader?

[CF Riot]

I put Arm in the same boat as me with that statement, so when he disagreed it lost some potential support.

No.

I wouldn't gain any info if I voted for one of them, so I'm not going to. I don't think anyone else would, but even if they did it'd leave me at a disadvantage so it's still a reason not to. Far more importantly than those side reasons, I think neither of them is scum.

Hi Flea!

OH HAI!

Corinthian - 6 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja, StrangerCoug, orangepenguin, FaerieLord)
killa seven - 5 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, Joubert, armlx)
Manito - 1 (killa seven)
Firestarter - 1 (CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch, 5 at deadline.

As of this post, Corinthian will be lynched at deadline. Deadline falls 47 hours, 43 minutes after this post's timestamp.

-Mod

[CF Riot]

SC what's your outlook on FS? If you had to guess at this point in time, would you say he's more likely town or scum? Why?

[CF Riot]

I wouldn't gain any info if I voted for one of them

, so I'm not going to.

I don't think anyone else would,

but even

if they did it'd leave me at a disadvantage so it's still a reason not to.

Your question said "why not vote given

that a vote will gain info?

"

I know for a fact that if I forced myself to choose between K7 and Corin, I wouldn't know any more info about who was scum.

I highly doubt you or anyone else would gain any extra info from my vote either.

If anyone did gain some extra info, that means they know something I don't, putting me at a disadvantage. I don't want that.

@Corin, I dunno. What does that even mean, that night choices are made during the day?

[CF Riot]

@CFR..I would, however, prefer to see you commit a vote on one of the, at this time, certain lynchees.

No.

[CF Riot]

Joubert: Uno. Dos.

FS: If one of them is going to be lynched regardless, then you don't need my vote to get information, so don't sweat it. I'm also not being non-committal. I'm committing to staying opposed to both votes. I've clearly presented my thoughts and feelings about both players throughout the thread, so not voting one or the other is not being non-committal.

For your "11 voters" thing: not all are scum, I think they're all wrong, and I don't think K7 and Corin are the scummiest two players. And for the second time so far, BM is not in this game. I'm assuming you're talking about Arm. If so, I accused you before he did, and on top of that I've pressed KoC's lynch about as much as yours. You only got my vote over him because I predicted it would gain more support.

For the last bit, I don't know what info they could gain. I said I believe they won't gain any. I said if I am wrong, then it would leave me disadvantaged because I'm not gaining

anything

and they would gain

something

. I think the one

real

benefit from me voting either/or is that it puts more names on the list of people that voted them, so each person there has a smaller chance of being singled out for their vote. It's a cover up basically.

[CF Riot]

I want to see updated 3 pick lists from LF, FS, KoC, TSN, and SC.

Vote: Firestarter

. Planning a reread soon.

[CF Riot]

By the way KoC, if you didn't see it, I have a pretty sizable case against you here. I'm still very much for a lynch of you.

FS you didn't answer my question.

[CF Riot]

Excuse the double post. It's in my sig but so you all will know, the fall semester starts for me tomorrow so my posting during weekdays will probably slow down from now on. This isn't really a V/LA or anything, because I hope to keep a regular posting schedule. However it may be less frequent than what it had been in the past.

[CF Riot]

I could vote SC. Iffy about FL still. I'm cooling on Manito. Don't really know why, but I am. KoC you can post that defense anytime now.

GIBBERISH

FaerieLord - 2 (Manito, SpyreX)
Firestarter - 2 (CF Riot, armlx)
killa seven - 1 (Knight of Cydonia)
Knight of Cydonia - 1 (LlamaFluff)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
LlamaFluff - 1 (StrangerCoug)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, Firestarter, orangepenguin

13 alive, 7 to lynch.

-Mod

[CF Riot]

Hahaha, K7 cracks me up.

KoC just curious, are you ever going to attempt to refute my case on you or are we just going to let that slide since it's been buried in all the posts from yesterday? 'Cause I mean if you're planning to just ignore it I need to know so I can stop bothering you about it. [/sarcasm]

FS any chance you have a new top 3 now? Any input at all? Still waiting to see what the town thinks so you can agree with everyone?

Care to put your vote where your posts are?

It is. FS is probably the scummiest person on my list. FL and SC come after them.

Umm, no it's not. You're not voting currently.

[CF Riot]

The original "Care to put your vote where your posts are?" came from KoC not me. I was just pointing out to Arm that he thought his vote was on FS when it really wasn't. (It turns out I was the one who was wrong. I was going by the vote count which had missed his vote.)

Why is this FoS worthy?

[CF Riot]

All pointless chatter. Game related content now! KoC, make better use of your text. Defend yourself, if you can. [[Case!]]
FS should also die. Probably before SC. Definitely today.

[CF Riot]

SpyreX it's hard at this point in the game but if FL was scum who do you think his partners would be?

SC so who do you think is scum?
FS so who do you think is scum?
armlx has your top 3 changed?

[CF Riot]

At this point, [K7's] off my radar...

Who's on it? Any number of people is fine.

[CF Riot]

Ok so make a deal with me. I'm on the fence about both FL and K7. I've wavered towards town on both but can conceive either (or both) being scum. However I really don't like FS, and he's your number 2 anyways. Throw some support towards my FS wagon and based on how it goes I'll vote with you on either K7 or FL in the second half of today. (That means whichever you vote for, I will vote for the same. Not cast my vote on one or the other in spite of your vote.)

If yes revote anytime. If no, you can make your own proposal and I'll consider it.
----
Manito, go read my case of KoC and tell me what you think. He apparently isn't going to. I've linked it several times so I'm sure you can find it. Maybe from someone who isn't suspicious of KoC, it doesn't seem as compelling.
----
KoC if you're town don't worry about who's looking at you. Take one for the team, stand up, declare who you think are scum, and maybe if you get lynched we'll listen to you. (That was a joke of course.)

[CF Riot]

StrangerCoug I asked you a question. Who are the scum? You're not voting and you've been sort of casting suspicion in all directions.

FL same question. Manito? Anyone else? Why are you holding your vote?

[CF Riot]

FL same question. Manito? Anyone else? Why are you holding your vote?

Just checking back in and I'd like to clarify, this line is asking Faerie Lord if he still thinks Manito or anyone else is scum. It is not asking "anyone else" who they think are scum.

[CF Riot]

Whoops. I remember reading that too. Sorry, I'm currently probing a lot of people. So why aren't you voting for any of them? And on a side note what about that question is loaded?

[CF Riot]

Psh. SC you caught me. Vote away.

LF I can't quite put my finger on why but for some reason Manito feels a lot more townie to me today. And on that same strange hunch, I'm liking a FS lynch a lot more than a KoC lynch. Plus I already bought Spyre's vote. Can't go back now. [=

Feel free to run up an opposing wagon though. FS vs. KoC or FS vs. Manito would be fun for me. I'd like to see how the town split itself up. (Not to say these are the only good wagons today. Everyone else, just keep voting who you want, maybe your wagon will win!)

[CF Riot]

SC: Yes. We made a deal for today. There's no contract or anything holding Spyre to it, but he's accepting it for right now.

FL: Who else? Are you less sure of Manito now than you were at the beginning of yesterday?

I MISS PAGE 50... =(

Firestarter - 3 (CF Riot, armlx, SpyreX)
FaerieLord - 3 (Manito, Knight of Cydonia, orangepenguin)
Knight of Cydonia - 2 (LlamaFluff, StrangerCoug)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, Firestarter

With 13 alive it's 7 to lynch.

-Mod

[CF Riot]

FL: Are you less sure of Manito now than you were at the beginning of yesterday?

No

Ok well I understand the whole, "I don't vote often" thing, but if you are just as sure today as yesterday, and you voted him yesterday, why not put your vote back there?
----
LF what qualms do you have with my deal with Spyre?
----
TSN, if the SC vote doesn't go anywhere, will you be supporting any other wagons today?

[CF Riot]

LF if you can't beat 'em...

I already said I think KoC is scum. Loudly. And blatantly. D3 (assuming I'm alive) I'll probably vote KoC. He was next in line but he got bumped back in my trade with Spyre. This is unless the flips from today and tonight make me think otherwise.

[CF Riot]

Agreed.

[CF Riot]

Be civil. I'm pretty rude and sarcastic at times but let's not get into swearing.
---
FL: Please, for the love of Santa, stop thinking about what the town is going to interpret your actions as. Instead, just do what you want to and then explain why later if you need to. I don't think anyone would've thought you were "diverting attention" if you'd just put your vote on Manito and said "I still think he's scum."
---
K7: Vote! (Also applies to Joubert and FS.)
---
By the way, is FS on V/LA or something? How long has he been gone?

[CF Riot]

Aww, dammit. I liked arguing with FS. ='[

FS, I don't know what exactly is keeping you from MS but best of luck to you in whatever it is. Game arguing aside, it was fun playing with you.

[CF Riot]

FL why don't you instead of constantly defending

yourself

, try to scum hunt a little and help the

town

find the baddies.

K7, FL, vote plz.

Mod: Prod request for Manito.

[CF Riot]

Why so much pressure to make everyone vote, CF Riot? Are we in a hurry that much?

Yes. I'm sick of long days in this game, and even if all the nonvoters placed a vote now, no one person would get enough to be lynched. We're going to spend our time arguing over who should switch to who, so let's do it after everyone has their votes down.

[CF Riot]

This whole "a vote on anyone but the vote leaders is wasted" idea is bull crap. Also, if I'm town, and I pressure you into action, and as such we find scum, do I not get points for the assist? Either way, I think I'm active enough to be spared a post or two for a use other than scum hunting. You are a different story however. If you really are town, at this point I think you're being roughly as helpful as the other fl was.

[CF Riot]

Sort of a check-in post.

Flea, are you looking for a replacement for FS?

He said he's quitting all his games.

None of what has happened lately looks very interesting, except maybe this.

And Killa, there's a difference betweeen believing someone to be scum, and pushing a wagon regardless. I thoguht fl was scum at the time. You were just pushing because it was a cheap lynch.

KoC do you have any proof of this whatsoever? What if K7

really thought

fl was scum, and

you

were pushing a cheap lynch? How are we supposed to know either one of your intentions?

Manito, how's married life? (Congratulations by the way.)

[CF Riot]

In your opinion would a FS-scum put out a KoC-town for that same reason?

[CF Riot]

Y - M - C - A!

KoC, you need to start delivering. Do your new analysis of K7 or defend yourself from the two that have been made against you.

FL, Joubert, Manito: do any of you have any comment about the FS wagon? For example, do any of you see him as town? Do any of you have a reason why the person you are voting for is more scummy than FS? FL and Joubert, are either of you considering placing a new vote on a more popular wagon?

[CF Riot]

What other popular wagon?

I dunno. You're the only one voting for Manito, so anyone with a vote on them would technically be a more popular wagon. Same case with Joubert's vote on K7, which is why I asked. I would've asked TSN but I thought he was getting replaced. I'd rather you choose by yourself and give me some great insightful reason as to why, one that will make me go, "Oh yeah, FL is shmart! Let's lynch so-and-so."

If you can't do that though, I wouldn't mind you joining the FS wagon.

[CF Riot]

It's not that, it's just that there is no reason not to vote. (Right now anyways.) The closest person to a lynch is at L-3. Joubert I do appreciate your consistency at ignoring any question I ask you.

[CF Riot]

This question is no longer relevant, but you dodged it for over 6 pages.

Joubert: do you have any comment about the FS wagon? For example, do you see him as town? Do any of you have a reason why the person you are voting for is more scummy than FS? Joubert, are you considering placing a new vote on a more popular wagon?

This question was made on page 55, and was aimed at other people besides you as well. It has been edited to focus on you since for your convenience.

[CF Riot]

I never did post case on you. I just get the feeling you're scum. I did post a huge, orange banner saying KoC is scum though, so that part of your statement about me is wrong. I think I may have even asked your opinion about KoC. Maybe it was the other way around. I don't know now.

It seems unlikely that I will vote anyone else today. I've pushed your wagon this far, I want to see it through. There would have to be a pretty spot-on tell on somebody to get me to vote them. The closest right now is KoC, but I think my suspicion of him has plateaued.

[CF Riot]

I'm not ignoring him. My 2.5 vote is pledged to SpyreX, but he appears to find KoC at least

nearly

as scummy as Fae, so he could become a popular wagon very soon. I've said before, but depending on who hangs and what they flip today, KoC could go in the

very

near future.

[CF Riot]

Well if I have anything to say about it it will... What I am trying to say is I think more people on the FS wagon would transfer to the KoC wagon then the other way around. We have the block who suspects him, and you. Both treat KoC as a decent lynch it seems.

On the KoC wagon there is me who wont let go,

OP whos LoS is KoC/FL

, K7 who looks pretty locked in and SC who I dont know where he is going, and would probally be the only one to quickly transfer over to the FS wagon. The main two wagons seem to be forming, and FS wagoners support the KoC wagon much more then the KoC wagon supports the FS wagon. For those reasons I think the KoC lynch will happen first.

For clarification only, OP just told you he thinks FS is scummier than FL. Unrelated to that small error, my problem with this is you were the one to do most of the conducting that lead to the Corin [mis]lynch. Very possibly an honest misread, but I don't really want you dictating the lynches that much. (So I'm taking a turn. =] )I'm already seeing some ties heading different ways whether FS flips town or scum, and I read the first 7 or so pages of the game you linked which didn't change my mind, so I still much prefer a FS lynch. You are right about the two major wagons scenario, but there are 5 people with votes not on those wagons, one of which (FS) is

being

wagoned. I'd like to see what they think before people on my wagon start defecting.

[CF Riot]

Assuming we don't root out some reasonable connections between scum and players, I agree K7 should not be allowed near endgame. However, I think lynching him now wouldn't give us any new info, and on top of that there are higher profile suspects.

FS I like your list of suspects, except for me of course, but I don't see how you could put KoC and I as a scum pair. I assume SG = S

C

. It is noteworthy that 3 of the 4 people you suspect are voting for you though.

4 8 15 16 23 42

Knight of Cydonia - 4 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, StrangerCoug, orangepenguin)
Firestarter - 3 (CF Riot, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
CF Riot - 1 (Firestarter)

Not Voting - armlx

13/7.

-Mod

[CF Riot]

I don't mechanically lay out FoSes like they're a pre-vote requirement. I think a huge orange banner would mean a little more than telling everyone I'm pointing an imaginary finger at somebody.

Question, if I was lynched and flipped town, would you still pursue KoC?
If KoC was lynched town would you still pursue me?

And since you're throwing so much crap at me about not having a case on you, do you have a case on anyone? Arm's is the only one I remember, yet you said you dropped it because you thought he was town. Although I didn't lay out my own opinions of all your posts, I've read the posts between you and Arm when he made his case, and your responses come off with you looking very scummy. You try for a very long time to ignore the case, then when you did respond almost none of your counter-points refuted what Arm had said. I also had a hunch that you were waiting out the first part of this day to see how everyone else would act before you gave any opinions, that way you could align with the majority and not stand out. That seemed like what you would do after being on the fl lynch and the Corin lynch. You blamed this on RL, so it sort of took that argument from me because I don't know if it was or not.
----
SC explain to me why 1425 is so interesting. And before you all go off thinking I'm just voting FS for no reason at all, saying I didn't make a case on him does not mean one does not exist.

[CF Riot]

I love the way CF is slowly builing up to a "lynch KoC, so that when he flips town you'll see I'm town" post. It wouldn't actually prove it, either. Seems like an easy way to just get me lynched, and maybe put you in the clear, CFR.

1) I'm not going to do that.
2) You're right, you flipping town would not prove that I am town. Another reason why I wouldn't do it, even

if

I were scum.
3) If I wanted an easy way to get you lynched, I would say "LF you are so right. I already suspected him anyways, so Spyre please switch with me." It's not like I need a good cover for switching to you, so you saying I'm building up to one is weak.

The reason I'm asking what FS thinks is because I think he's scum. I want to pull as much information from him as I can so that in the event that he is lynched, I can refer back to it later to aid in finding other scum. If you think FS is scum (you're voting him), why would you think I'm trying to trick him into voting you? Do you think we're buddies? I don't understand your logic.
----

By saying three of the four people Firestarter suspects is voting him, you present him as OMGUSy. In addition, I would like to know why you don't understand him pairing you with Knight of Cydonia.

Yes, that is exactly what I mean. You imply in your previous post that I could be scum. Do these have any relation? Like are you saying you think my point is wrong or fabricated in some way? It just seems like you're saying, "Riot is right, and FS is right, and they could both be scum." It doesn't make sense to me.

The reason a Riot/KoC pair doesn't make sense to me is I've presented the most evidence against him and seem eager to lynch him. I guess you could say bus and point to the fact that I'm not voting him yet, but if I were in someone else's shoes I would think that scenario very remote.

[CF Riot]

I don't buy that. You don't explain what was interesting about it. We've been saying FS is OMGUSy for a while now and it seems blatant in my post. What about it was interesting?

I want a lynch. I'm getting tired of today.

Mod: Prod request for FL and Joubert.

[CF Riot]

Spyre, explain at your convenience. I won't know my answer until I hear the question but it sounds fun. One question first though. Are you scum?

FL, if you can see yourself behind either one, then get there or give a reason to get behind your guy. You're not pushing for Manito, and you're not behind either leading wagon, but you're not asking any questions or making any comments about them either. You are being totally useless.

[CF Riot]

You are either lying because you have to or you're just too absorbed in yourself to look at the game objectively.

I did not ask for you to FoS anyone, the lack of any is worth noting, however.

No, it isn't. I've proven this because what I have done is more than equivalent to a FoS.

I dont intend to play games with you, Ill make decisions when decisions need to be made. And Ill base it on what I see.

Haha. Alright then.

First of all, do you honestly think I'd quit all the games Im in, just to use it as foothold in 1 game? Seriously??

I don't know when you quit your other games. You never told anyone in this thread when you bailed, so for all I know you could've lurked the first part of today and then really left for the second part. I also already conceded that the argument I was going to make about this is now null.

Secondly, you say my responses are scummy in my exchange with armlx... Which responses would they be?

Your posts that are scummy:[26] [38] [42] [77] [X] [X]
Numbers are post numbers when filtered by FS only. X's are Arm's posts, which I used because they contain both FS input and Arm input rather than just one or the other.

BUT you have voted for me without any reasons, except the "I think he's scum, he's looked scummy, what do you all think of FS, does he look any scummier than so & so..."

My posts where I've said you were scummy: [12] [16] [18] [22]
Again, numbers are post number when filtered by Riot posts only. You now have no reason to say I'm voting you without a reason.

And yes, I have a case on you.

Show me.

The fact does remain that you've hunted for my lynch for as long as I can remember in this game.... without as much as compiling a case....

Fixed.

You have repeatedly asked other players what they think of me, why they're not voting me, who else would they consider as scummy as me...

(hint: The word you are looking for is "scum hunting".)

You have coat tailed other peoples arguments, and have seen a chance to get rid of a townie....
Which you've pushed extremely hard since your first vote on me...

If you still think its OMGUS... then good for you...

Think to yourself. When did I say I suspected you? How many people were voting with me when I started pushing your lynch? If I was pushing an easy lynch, there are much easier alternatives. Now, when did you begin to suspect me? Who are your other top suspects? Give me one reason you have for voting me that has nothing to do with you, and I won't say OMGUS.

If FS flips town, I'm going to be severely peeved that I went through all this trouble now.
----
That out of the way, SC you are vote hopping a lot.

My Latest LoS:
1) FS
2) KoC
3) SC

[CF Riot]

Give me one reason you have for voting me that has nothing to do with you, and I won't say OMGUS.

OK.. No matter what I say, anywhere.. it will be considered OMGUS...

This is fail. You can't give a reason because you don't have one.

How many people were voting with me when I started pushing your lynch? If I was pushing an easy lynch, there are much easier alternatives.

Hmmm... the bolded part...sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it...

Explain.

The fact, as Ive already stated, is that I do not find the others as scummy as you... Nor do you consider those same players scummier than me...

But you have no reason to find me scummy at all. What is the point of the second sentence?

BTW, it would help

[if you explained]

why you consider posts scummy, rather than linking to them.

They are in the posts I linked of my responses. The way you switched your vote from armlx to K7 right after posting a case against arm is scummy because you abandon it for no reason and then try not to respond to his case against you. The way you hopped from K7 to Corin when momentum was changing between them was scummy too.

My case on you right now is in 1426 & 1447...

Then you have no case. 26 is just saying you think I'm busing KoC (alignment yet unknown) because I posted a case on him but am voting you. Not a scum tell. 47, all you are saying there is I'm pushing your lynch without a good reason so I'm scum. That is the definition of OMGUS, and I already gave you my reasons for voting you.

[CF Riot]

@CFR - Out of curiosity, what are your views on OP?

I hardly notice him in this game. Before I scrolled up I couldn't even remember who he was voting for. His last post makes him seem sort of buddy-buddy with SC.

FS I'm about done arguing with you. I've proven I have more than a hunch on you. It's supra weak to use bussing KoC as a tell because you don't know if KoC is scum or not. Me staying off the Corin/K7 duel will only be scummy if K7 is proven scum. Your logic is so screwed it is hard to explain why it is wrong.

[CF Riot]

Nope, sure not scum.

I believe it. We could just follow arm around with our votes and kind of force him into the thing. =P I don't know. Basically if you cut out all the who's in/who's out stuff, is it not the same thing as just listening to what each other thinks? I think one thing I would change is I don't want to line up our lynches like that. For instance, right now you're voting FS with me and I've pledged to vote 1 person with you. I think we should just stick with that until today is resolved, then discuss who comes next after night. Question, if you weren't making this deal with me, who would you be voting today?

TSN: Who's 2nd scummiest after SC to you?

I. AM. BEOWULF.

Firestarter - 4 (CF Riot, SpyreX, Knight of Cydonia, StrangerCoug)
Knight of Cydonia - 3 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
CF Riot - 1 (Firestarter)

Not Voting - armlx

13/7.

-Mod

[CF Riot]

KoC.

Hmm? What happened to Armlx?

[CF Riot]

CFR asked Firestarter:

Would KoC flipping town make you lean town on me?

Don't do this. This is libel, and nowhere near what I said.

Question, if I was lynched and flipped town, would you still pursue KoC?
If KoC was lynched town would you still pursue me?

You're right [KoC], you flipping town would not prove that I am town. [This is] another reason why I wouldn't do it, even

if

I were scum.

The reason I'm asking what FS thinks is because I think he's scum. I want to pull as much information from him as I can so that in the event that he is lynched, I can refer back to it later to aid in finding other scum.

So far, with CFR, all he has done is provided links... Useless.

Only if you don't click on them. The links to my posts take you to things I've said. I've also clarified a few of my thoughts about the links I gave to your posts. Whether you think my opinions are valid or not doesn't change the fact that I've laid them out.

[CF Riot]

Manito can you post something game related please? You haven't really said anything all D2 except "I still suspect FL for the same reasons as before."

[CF Riot]

you simply can't figure out who is scum with who without dead scum.

That's not exactly right, but the idea is close. It's weak to say, "those two agree a lot, they're both scum," but it is reasonable to say, "X is scummy, and Y is defending him with bad logic, so they could be buddies."

I had some ideas as to buddies of KoC and FS (independent groups) but it's been a while since I thought about it. I'll need a reread after I get a flip. I don't really want to reveal them now anyways though.

[CF Riot]

=/ ?

I was tired of today, and I'm predicting scum-flip, but I just hate when things shift all suddenly like that. If this is a mislynch I'm going to be pissed for more than one reason, and I'm probably not going to trust anyone.

[CF Riot]

SC who do you think is scum?

LF: What about Manito is scummy? He didn't vote for a townie that looked really suspicious?

[CF Riot]

FS, we cross posted. There's no point in waiting for a claim, because every town player is vanilla. I also thought I remembered you being strongly against meta earlier this game. What changed? Also, I'd say I told you so about the theory of me bussing KoC, but I was just as wrong because I thought he was going to be scum.

@KoC, I really misread you. But I told you I wouldn't flip-flop from FS to kill you, and I kept my word.

[CF Riot]

@ CFR...Ive now a new target I wish to pursue however.. you can now sleep peaceful at night knowing this..... For now.

Don't threaten me buddy.

Armlx, can you list your 3 top suspects?

I was right. I don't feel like I trust anyone.

[CF Riot]

TSN any 2nd or 3rd place suspects?

[CF Riot]

FS give me your top 3 and why. I'm working towards a vote. This should be the last person I ask this to before I commit.

[CF Riot]

That didn't really help me much but it might later.

Vote: StrangerCoug

.

Something is not right but I can't figure it out yet. I think we should lynch someone that was on the KoC wagon today.

[CF Riot]

. . .why me. . ?

You were on the KoC wagon in a precarious spot. The person you replaced for was also on the fl wagon, which I suspect must have at least one scum on it. You seem willing to vote FS, but FS doesn't seem willing to vote you. Because scum more willingly vote townies than buddies, this leads me to believe that if only one of you are scum trying to pick off the easy target, it's more likely you. I'm getting mixed feelings about Arm and Spyre, because they were both on FS then bailed (Arm did this twice) and now they're back trying to lynch him again. They both recognize you could be scum, but are trying really hard to put you at the end of the line up. TSN seems less like he's directing suspicion around, and he's voting you. Those are a few.

[CF Riot]

The list might actually mean something if he'd take off everyone who

was

voting him for a significant amount of time during that day. Just listing who was off when the day ended doesn't mean anything. If you look at those who never put a vote on him even once, it might mean something. I dunno, I haven't looked it up yet.

[CF Riot]

Oh my god. This is a little over the top. I bet I read it all though...

[CF Riot]

Bye FS. If he's town, he may be right about who to target. I wish we would've waited for the lurkers to make a post, but too late for regrets now.

[CF Riot]

A very late blah, but I gotta say, I figured that was coming. Good luck guys.

This is the last post which CF Riot made as his first role.
-Mod

[CF Riot]

K7 either has to be lynched today or let slide.

Today is my confirmation or my death. Either or. [smile]

Vote: Orangepenguin

Hey idiots: if spyrex was town the mafia could have easily pushed his wagon to the fourth required vote. After all he has done you can't seriously be thinking of letting him off the hook.

End of Day 3.5 Votecount
SpyreX - 3 (ThAdmiral, orangepenguin

TOWN

, Netlava

TOWN

)

spyrex/lf/k7 are scum.

2 out of 3, maybe 3 out of 3. I should really be humble because I did it first, but I can't believe how many people are buying into Spyre's crap at this point. I felt like it was obvious as soon as I died that my alliance had betrayed me. At that point I still wasn't sure if it was Spyre or Arm or both. It still could be both I think, I'm not as sure of that one. Spyre and KoC(K7) are buddies, no doubt. K7 was the one person that was bothering me because of how confusing his play was, until KoC replaced in and ended the day (saving Spyre) faster than anyone else could say hello. The only thing that's tripping me up is who the last partner is. I want to say armlx because of the on-the-surface buddying, but I did that with Spyre too before I died.

Vote: SpyreX

The chance of this moving is borderline impossible. I defy anyone to give me a good reason why it should.

[CF Riot]

I'm really disappointed with this game. Not the game itself of course, but how I played it and the results. Scum was just near perfect, and the town just kept lobbing up easy bandwagons.

[CF Riot]

I'm still putting this down in my record book as a T-loss. I only made 1 post as scum, and even after death (first one) I was waaaay off on who the scum were. Llama played one of those games where a lot of people had him as scum way in the back of their minds, but no one was brave enough to say it out loud.

I like how the days in this game all lasted a month until KoC and I replaced back in, then they fell in a few hours each. That was cute.

Llama, did you suggest "the List" way back when as scum strategy, or would you have done the same thing as town at that point?

[CF Riot]

armlx, I was onto as soon as D1 completed...
His sudden change in attitude to the game sent the alrm bells off for me!!

Arm wasn't scum.

Next up should be one calling the shots.. armlx, Spyrex, CFR, LF..
All 4 have been dominant at some stage, directing the game...

LF was the only one of those that were scum, at that point anyways.