Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[SpyreX]

We need to stop the damage to poor fleaville before we decend into anarchy...and, whats a sign of anarchy? Riots, thats right.

Vote CF Riot

[SpyreX]

Well, huh.

It may be jokevoting but there's already some bizarre stuff happening.

3 person wagon already on Gimbo... with 16 that isn't cause for concern, but it still stands out. Of the 3, dcorbe is the one that really makes me go huh.

Gimbo's total overreaction to it even risking a modkill for it.

Good lord town, are we going to be this scummy out of the gate?

[SpyreX]

Let's-a-Go...
Vote: dcorbe, for obvious reasons...

What obvious reasons? I may not like his vote, but THIS one really isn't any better.

[SpyreX]

Sweet, I get to be that guy.

Jokevoting and randomvoting STILL holds some value. Hell, its already led to the questionable comment by Laptop.

Most votes have no reason, or obvious silly ones. When joke/randomvotes start accruing (not even a full-fledged wagon, but sure is the wheels for ones) I look at it and go huh.

When someone comes in and says "for obvious reasons" when its someone I mentioned as a huh vote that also, in fact, makes me go huh.

Unvote

I'm all for fun and games, but I'm still going to read into the votes. 3 random votes in near succession doesn't seem as random to me.

[SpyreX]

I'm still not seeing what action I've taken is misguided - unless its talking about my suspicions as they come up even in the jokephase. I haven't voted for anyone besides my clevar vote on Riot.

I just saw some things that stood out and mentioned it, which I thought was how we find..scum?

[SpyreX]

Apparently the brutal sun has sapped the life from our village.

I am alone in a field of the dead

There are no survivors

HELP

[SpyreX]

Yep, even in random I'm gonna look at things - random voting in and of itself isn't, of course, going to be a case but it sure could play a part. Hell, in the one finished game I did we hit the recruiter day one partially based on his random vote.

So, yea, random votes CAN have meaning.

And, of course, its going to be the transition from the jokes to reality. So, someone has to do it.

[SpyreX]

They ARE slower on here. Its like pulling teeth some days.

[SpyreX]

Let us march forward to victory under the flag of... gimbo?

I'm scared.

Hold me.

[SpyreX]

1. People for better or for worse are making a big deal about random voting, including myself. However in my opinion, there is no coloration between what they say and if they are acting pro town or pro mafia.

2. I think the people voting for me are town as they are pointing out flaws in my reasoning. This doesn't seem like the mafia begging for a mislynch.

3. SpyreX is coming off as the voice of reason. Seems to have exactly right thing to say about all the crazy

4. Gimbo hasnt had very good reactions to votes, but the humor and jokes seems to have mellowed him out.

1.) The discussion about random voting is, at least, a discussion. I'm glad to see it and, honestly, when the dust settles I think there is going to be some information to be gathered from it. To a degree I can see not connecting what they say with their role, but how they VOTE and how it sits as the game moves sure will.

2.) Yes, for the most part I'm getting townish vibes and not scummy ones from all of the players (with a few exceptions I plan on rereading).

3.) Aww, shucks. It seems like this stuff happens a lot and there's always one or two people that start a ruckus around the concept of jokevoting - and, it seems to me, that something useful is always garnished (unless someone powerscums and just gets hung for it)

4.) I cant read Gimbo for anything, but this is definitely Gimbo being Gimbo.

So, wow, how is it that I end up voting for what appears to be the only person who hasn't posted yet? (I could be wrong) Um...I know these games are a lot slower than I'm used to but there has to be some reason here :S.

This, REALLY, seems like a stretch. You're really placing a lot of onus for what is a random vote from you especially considering there's been no reply and, honeslty, when he does reply what do you expect in response?

FoS: forbid

[SpyreX]

Yeah, understandable. That was phrased weird anyway. I meant I understood why people are feeling I'm doing that. But anyway, how often is D1 not a mislynch anyway? Someone's gonna get boned here. We can only hope it's scum.

My one finished game on here we tagged Scum on day 1 (and not randomly). So, it can happen.

Moreso, voting inactives doesn't really serve that large a purpose - if they are inactive for being inactive, then they wont notice. If they are lurking, it normally takes more than one vote to really get them out of the woodwork.

Normally, I dont focus on the lurkers day 1 unless somehow magically the entire game everyone active is playing without a drip of scumminess. Now THAT I dont think has ever happened.

[SpyreX]

Exactly. Lets move on towards ACTIVE players and more discussion.

[SpyreX]

God, I hate feeling like a parrot, but forbid that looks REALLY bad.

As stupid as it sounds, the only reason I'm not voting for you right now is it looks SO bad I think its a newbie town versus a newbie scum (and this coming from another newbie).

[SpyreX]

*sigh*

Now I have no idea. Selfvoting when most people haven't even voted for you doesn't make any sense and you're just hurting the town. Take a step back, look at the game as a whole.

I can't see doing this as a town at this point but I sure cant see why a scum woudl either

[SpyreX]

But, if you know you're town you're hurting the town getting yourself hung and if you're scum you're hurting your chances to win...

We dont have a fool this game do we?

[SpyreX]

I thought we'd moved past meta discussion to this new and invigorating discussion about selfvoting.

Also,

FoS Killa

If you think for is town, why the vote?

[SpyreX]

Good lord, I check in to see THIS happened.

I still have a small FoS on killa, but having played a game with him I could see his explanation as him doing that as town.

I dont like this play as town or scum - I think its a given that, although probably not the first lynch, there are enough questions about forbid's alignment that we're going to have to lynch before lylo. I, personally, lean slightly towards town but it IS such a great scum gambit that its hard not to keep that in mind.

I need to do a reread soon - I've got a funny vibe from someone else but until I figure out why I dont want to derail the discussion.

AAAND BACK

dcorbe - 2 (Gimbo, Joubert)
LaptopGun - 2 (armlx, Bogre)
killa seven - 2 (CF Riot, forbiddanlight)
forbiddanlight - 1 (killa seven)
Gimbo - 1 (dcorbe)
armlx - 1 (Manito)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)

Not Voting - Lquiz, Voodo, SpyreX, Corinthian, Firestarter, LaptopGun

16 alive, 9 to lynch.

-Mod

[SpyreX]

However, CF7 has heightened my suspicion somewhat with his nonsense pressure fos.

Not worthy of a vote at this junction, but certianly a FoS: CF7

This reeks of OMGUS, but even worse, not even committal enough to actually place a vote.

Addressing the actual meat of how I'm supposedly lying about me coming up with this plan, I'm not, to put it simply. I actually thought I was being clever, and am now being informed I wasn't. My mistake. My vote still stands because it wouldn't surprise me if you did accidentally or intentionally fall into the trap. If the people want a lynch em both, I'm willing to settle for that, since there is a high liklihood one of us is scum.

Here's my problem with this whole approach. I was really tempted to vote for you. I still am. I would be surprised if I was the only one - in fact, I'll bet there was damn near enough to get you lynched for it. Does that mean we're all scum? Of course not.

Just because killer jumped the trigger does NOT mean he's scum (of course I'm not saying he's town). You did a very questionable manuver that makes almost 0 sense as town (why self-sacrifice, especially in a bandwagon both town and scum will jump on). The only problem I have is it also makes little sense as scum (why jump into the spotlight on day 1 in such a fashion that you're insuring your lynch in the near future).

If you had pulled this on day 2 or 3 I'd have hung you in an instant. Day 1... god, I have no idea. The more I read part of me thinks your BOTH town and your suggestion of lynching one to show the other is scum would end up with day 1 having 3 dead (two lynched and the scumkill).

All the talk about Spies doesn't really do anything except cloud the issue at hand. It IS posting just to post.

Tonight I'm doing a reread.

[SpyreX]

I personally believe one of us is scum, and that's where my vote stands, since I know my alignment.

Again... I find myself agreeing with Gimbo. The wording on this seems very off.

Honestly, your case to me isn't that strong on K7 actually BEING scum. Is it possible? Yes but not with the certainty inherent in that post (I believe one of us is scum, if you lynch him and he's not... then I am scum).

However, the way you are pushing it (ready for the tinfoil hat) is like you KNOW he is scum for sure. Which...could only happen if you are scum yourself.

I dont like this at all.

[SpyreX]

CF -

Yes, this is similar to what happened with me and BM. The big difference is that we were at 6 left and, by process of elimination, one of us HAD to be the scum (or it really didn't make sense).

This gambit is out of the gate and, really, with no one cleared or clearable making the statement one of us IS scum really bothers me.

[SpyreX]

Its time for the.... SpyreX MEGAPOST (TM PENDING)

I've reread this damn thread a couple times really triyng to get a better feel for whats going on. Of course at this point the focus really is the K7/Forbid tryst. I did find a few other things that read odd in place. So, of course, I'll start with them:

Joubert:

3 whole posts (I know RL does take precedence, but).
Now, this alone wouldn't get me, but in the substantial post he makes claims of suspicion on...
Gimbo
Laptop
Me (including accusing me of spaghetti attacks AND collusion with Laptop at this point in the game??)
Firestarter
K7
Forbid

On top of that, some of the replies sit oddly:

I beg to differ. A Townie can certainly be killed (call it a "sacrifice") in order to uncover Scum. It becomes a beneficial "investment", if you excuse the methaphor...

(In reference to Forbid's selfvote).
You are correct in theory, but the sacrifice implies furthering the towns knowledge AND normally isn't done with a "woe is me" sytle selfvote. This "investment" may pay off for the town, OR if both k7 and forbid are town it sure pays off for the scum in spades.

I'd say he looks crazy more than anyone else doing that, because everyone's MEANT to be a little weird in the preliminary stages. Shortly after, SpyreX answers all the points, although they weren't meant to be answered. Strange... Possible connection between those two?

Aside from me looking "crazy" for not abandoning looking at whats going on in the jokepahse, who's to say they werent supposed to be answered? I felt they deserved a response, so they got it.

Is OMGUS supposed to be considered a scum-tell?

Like any "scum-tell" - sometimes. Its contextual. There's very, very few absolutes in mafia. When the vote is a swing OMGUS that isn't even committal enough to actually vote, yes, it raises my suspicion. I'm not saying OMGUS is always a scumtell but I sure am not implying it never is like your question does.

Feelings:

So, yea, I am on the fence. The attempts to link me to laptop + the idea of using forbid as a "sacrifice" for knowledge when all it would do is implicate K7 weekly if she is town (which I am not sure of) is highly questionable. IF he is scum, I would definitely look at that list in detail.

Manito:

I think manito is town as this point, BUT (bolded added for emphasis):

I'm with Spyrex on this one

, FoS: Killa

I'm with Armlx on this one

, and to quote the old addage - LAL.

That's exactly what I'm saying,

and exactly what he said

I couldn't agree more with this post.

They are both fishy as hell...

Feelings:

So, PLEASE, post more and although it makes sense to reference what others are saying when you agree (sup Gimbo) give some more personal insights into whats going on. I even AGREE with you but it stood out to me as odd.

Now, onto the crux of todays battle royale:

Killa Seven vs Forbiddanlight.
First up, Killa... SEVEN (all in one megaquote because)

vote forbiddanlight
please dont vote yourself and hunt scum thanks.

town should never vote for himself or herself, ask to be replaced.
im also callin her bluff at the sametime seeing if she really wants to be in this game, thanks for ruining my plan guys.

lol i figured youd cop out and say, "i was baiting scum" ive seen this done before, your not fooling me. dont play the poor me im under pressure, vote = myself i dont want to play anymore then try to turn me into scum for voting a quiter who cant handle pressure.

from what your saying, first your saying i was having a bad day so i voted my self, then your saying you had a plan all along. to me it seems like you really wanted to quit and voted yourself and then later retracted and pretended it was all a master plan.

Feelings:

Now, to me, agree with it or not, this looks like an overzealous town pushing on what he feels is scummy. I am not convinced, of course, but at this point I think K7 is town.

On the otherside, we have...

Forbiddanlight

Ok, so forbid's "trap" was playing the newbie selfvote angle. Trying to catch scum jumping on her wagon because she is a new player who doesn't want to play. Believable, at first glance. But, here come some quotes before the plan (partial, since I'm gonna have a lot of forbid quotes here)!

Um...I know these games are a lot slower

than I'm used to

but there has to be some reason here :S.

In the other forums I play in

, a lot of random voting starts with calling out known inactives.

Works for me.

Different playstyles here than I'm used to.

Then, the selfvote. Well, at this point I'm definitely not buying the new player angle on it at all. Of course, part of this "newbie" is just implied by me and not explicit. That alone doesn't really tip the scales.

Then, we have some very odd comments made after the selfvote, emphasis again per me.

Her, by the way. And I stand by my vote.

I'm currently the scummiest looking person out there.

Hence that dictates my vote.

Seriously, there are easier ways

to attract over agressive townies

that don't involve as much chance of my death. I gambled, and have yet to see if I won.

I mean, the only thing you have is my word, and in this game you don't trust anyone's words

(except your scumbuddies if you have them)

. So, it's immaterial whether you doubt if I had an actual plan or not. I know that that was my plan, and I'm sticking to it with my vote on Killa seven

for pushing my action.

My vote still stands because it wouldn't surprise me if you did

accidentally or intentionally

fall into the trap. If the people want a lynch em both, I'm willing to settle for that, since there is a

high liklihood one of us is scum.

I honestly think that you are too quick to think both of us are town.

I personally believe one of us is scum

, and that's where my vote stands, since I know my alignment.

I've asserted I'm town several times.

I was rather under the impression no matter what I said someone would make a case for it.

Covering my bolded points:
1.) Why say you look scummy instead of doing something about it if you are town?
2.) You say to attract over agrssive TOWNIES. I think this is a scumslip.
3.a) Why mention this? It just stands out oddly.
3.b) Pushing your action? I thought the point WAS for you to find scum.
4.a) Why, in the name of zeus, would he intentionally fall into this trap? The only way he could do it intentioanlly is if he KNEW it was a trap..which points to you being scum with him.
4.b) Why not just say you think he's scum instead of implying one of you is for this?
5.) Again, Why not just say you think he's scum.
6.) Of course you're going to assert you're town. Why bring it up?

So... now, I was pretty sure this was scum.. but WHY? Why now? Then, I looked back.

So, wow, how is it that I end up voting for what appears to be the only person who hasn't posted yet? (I could be wrong) Um...I know these games are a lot slower than I'm used to but there has to be some reason here :S.

She was getting heat from this. She eventually backed down off it, but it was enough heat to put herself in the light some (while trying to put some light on CF at the bottom of her joking post BUT letting Gimbo be the one to ask the questions).

At this point, why not use the heat some? Setup a gambit where maybe you get to coast along AND even if you're hung you put suspicion on someone else. If Killer is town, like I'm thinking, then it hurts the scum losing a player but almost guarantees a mislynch in the future.

Feelings:

My gut said it initially and I decided to reread before..

vote forbiddanlight

. She's scum. Sometimes we need to not WIFOM ourselves out of an obvious target because they're too obvious.

[SpyreX]

Easy, they are scum and think that by attacking the very notion it was a trap after "falling" into it, they get an easy town lynch...OH WAIT! That's what's happening! As for the high liklihood part, that was also context of a lynch em both. From someone else's POV, both of us really don't look good (or at least at the time). I've heard cases on both of us these last few pages.

This is STUPID! No scum is worth one regular townie D1 from the scum's point of view. Seriously, if I WERE scum, and Killa were townie, his death would be WELL worth mine. If perhaps there were roles this game, I'd give you this point, but it's mostly vanilla. This is just bad logic.

You realize that the same logic you're trying to use in portion 2 would apply to portion 1. IF K7 was scum (which, although I am leaning heavily towards town could be), why would he put himself in a position where he would get 1 whole townie before he got lynched? Why not let a townie start this show and then move on.

In fact, lets look at this as if I was your scum partner:
You gave yourself some heat, there's no power roles to check you out for sure so you are going to probably be a day 1 lynch. Setup this gambit with a townie. I am going to attack you, just enough, so that when you flip scum I can stay under the radar and coast along letting townies kill each other. Of course, even though you ARE scum, some people are going to sill wonder about K7 and you bussing each other to clear one. So, you've given me some cred and a good target a little later.

I also think I've caught a scum, and they've just done VERY well at reversing that between my stupidity and they or their buddy's manipulations. I reserve an I told you so for when Killa flips scum. I also would like you to at LEAST consider killa when I flip town.

K7 didn't really have to do anything. Thats part of the problem - the evidence against you is fairly staggering whereas K7 just had to push along.
Its pretty apparent whatever your flip K7 will be considered for a good long time.
If he's scum AND you aren't I'll put your I told you so in my sig.

[SpyreX]

If you aren't scum, give your feelings on this game up to this point. Might as well help.

Of course, I think you are, but.

Regardless, hope RL improves.

[SpyreX]

Don't you worry none. If you're not maf and k7 is, you'll see it.

I'm not thinkin thats gonna happen though.

[SpyreX]

I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with. If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige. But if you think there is a better route, I'll post my cases

Ok... what?

If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.

This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.

[SpyreX]

It was not especially in reference to Forbid's selfvote, actually. You made up this part and stuck with it afterwards...

No, it was in repsonse to Gimbo who was, in fact, saying that statement in regards to the whole Forbid fiasco. So, if you weren't talking about Forbid specifically... why did you bother even bringing it up? I assumed it was relevant to the conversation.

Raises your suspicions towards the OMGUS-er or the OMGUS-ee? Your reaction is still noteworthy, though. I didn't imply nothing. Do you think I implied something relevant?

You said:

Is OMGUS

supposed

to be considered a scum-tell?

Why is that there if you dont feel it is? Are you just fishing for semantics arguments?

And, where I put it originally, it would be the one who made the OMGUS - I thought that really was the whole idea behind the OMGUS.

Jou,

What are your feelings on whats going on? Suspects, anything?

[SpyreX]

@Gimbo - I don't think the town can afford to let the k7/forbid exchange go. It has to be rectified or it will become an issue later when we cant afford to have it lingering.

@Forbid - A decent summary, but some of what you've said can be misconstrued. Of course I'm only speaking for me:

Needs a reread to figure out what scum vibes he feels.

Yea, there was a few players I had an "itch" about but couldn't place why. Some I mentioned, others after a couple rereads I got.

Self vote confuses him. Wonders if there is a jester.

The self-vote did, and does, confuse me. My point about the jester was mostly being snide - that was about the only role that made sense to self vote.

MEgaposts analysis, votes me claiming that you can't WIFOM yourself out of a good lead.

THIS one I think is WAY too much of a summation. I voted you because you have been behaving very scummy. The mention of WIFOM is because me, and a few others, were going to let you off the hook BECAUSE it seemed TOO scummy to actually be from a scum.

Wants my thoughts on who is scum. Finds FL 2 non-commital, doesn't see my lynch as solid and wants to hear other cases.

I want to know what you think IF, of course, I am wrong. I think your lynch is fundamentally the best lynch for the day - if I've said otherwise (which I sure dont remember after my actual vote) then thats sure as hell not what I meant. But, of course, I want to squeeze you for every bit of information I can scum or town.

Aside from that, there's no

feelings

anywhere in that post. That's a bad thing. We can all read it, but we cant see your take on it.

[SpyreX]

Wow, we've got some content up ins.

Forbid, thank you for giving your feelings on what is going on. Honestly, I still think you're scum, but I definitely waver a bit more in it. Regardless, this is information and that is very, very helpful.

I've been rereading again (surprise) and there's something really iffy with the exchange on page 6 between Firestarter and LTG.

Firestarter -suggests- that forbid could be scum trying to attract townies (but doesn't FoS or vote).

Laptop unvotes (doesn't revote) and in his next post says: Still it seems both forbiddanlight and Killa were gambling for something.

BOTH of these players are, by wording, suggesting a scum is in the forbid/k7 setup. Yet, neither are willing to vote.

Next page, Firestarter actually FoS's on CF7 (my statement of reeking of OMGUS) but still doesn't vote.

In fact, Firestarter doesn't vote for Forbid until after I megapost AND the wagon gets some steam.

All in all, I dont like the way its went down. If we're wrong about forbid, there's definitely going to be some eyes that way.

[SpyreX]

To be fair Manito, I said the same thing a few pages ago. But, not like that.

I really dont like any form of "I have information but wont talk about it"

Aside from that, I've seen both "If FL is scum, K7 is scum" and "If FL is scum, K7 isn't scum".

I know how easy it is to fall into either of these traps, but we have to watch it. Like I've said, the biggest reason why I, personally, think that both of them aren't scum is simply the fact that, obviously, we as a town are NOT going to let either of them live much longer (or, definitely not until lylo).

The only reason I say not to fall into an either or is that we definitely need to watch other players coming up. Lets not get so focused on K7 we let others slip through the cracks as well.

[SpyreX]

I've made my feelings clear, but I'll chime in again so as to not be lurking.

FL's defense has, to some measure, made me wonder about her alignment some, but I am still definitely feeling that the behavior as a whole is scummy and she is probably scum.

[SpyreX]

I'll be the first to start this new day off right. Oddly enough, my suspicions (if Forbid was actually town) lie on... all three people who happened to not vote.

I've gotten into why a little bit, but later on I'll post more in detail.

[SpyreX]

KoC,

I might have worded that poorly. Not because they didn't vote, but BEFORE then I had suspicions on them all and, oddly enough, none of them also voted. I thought that was interesting enough to warrant mention.

[SpyreX]

Alrighty, here we go. I've got some serious suspects at the moment.

The Not-Voters: FaerieLord, LaptopGun, Firestarter

FaerieLord

Faerie has been "active" but the PbA sure dont hide this business:

Forbiddan, I have the power of the vote here, and you're not looking pretty. So do this for me. Post who you think is scummy and give reasons why. For the record, saying "He attacked me" will not cut it. It will only make me use bold tags. Thank you Smile

I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with.

If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige

. But if you think there is a better route, I'll post my cases

2) Get used to it. By now you should know that I rarely vote. But since this is nightless, it looks like I will have to.

I'm not going to call you out on it. I was going to do it pretty soon myself. Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

So, after pushing on the Forbidden lynch, but never voting (because they rarely vote) very quickly a vote is placed on Manito. I dont like this at all.

Also, these two posts strike me as bad for different reasons:

I'm having trouble what to obey right now...
Common Sense or Gut.

- This is so noncommittal (especially since neither is explained) ESPECIALLY after the fact no vote was EVER placed day one.

You were complaining that not posting up the cases was scummy, so I posted them, and you are still complaining?

It was, at least to me, an obvious overreaction since it would have been impossible to hammer Faerie. Why overreact this much?

Feeling - Likely Scum.

Firestarter

I've talked some about Firestarter already, especially in regards to the lynch before it happened. A lot of Firestarters case felt off but, at least he DID place a vote even though he removed it.

Now, I honestly haven't played enough to get a good read on Gimbo, but from what I HAVE played with him I would not be surprised at all if, as town, he came in and saw he got to hammer and did it. The "shit" post also makes sense to me in that context.

I also, for whatever reason, dont like the move directly to K7/Gimbo. There's other things going on and other directions to look as well. I dont like Gimbo's play in 319 & 324, but I dont know if its enough alone to build a case on.

Feelings - 50/50

LaptopGun

Ok... I dont like Laptop's play. The majority of his posting have been BARELY related to the game at hand (clarification of a meta issue).

Having NEVER placed a vote except for a random at the start on Firestarter really bothers me. Especially with this post:

Seems incredibly likely FL is scum.

I've never been comfortable with kila7. I don't see much reason behind their actions. I don't see a possibility BESIDES that one or the both were gambling. Gambling for what? I think FL really wanted to attract agressive players. kila seems to have wanted to get a better sense of other people and a proverbial shot across the bow would appear to be an interesting course of action. And Hell, they both could be mafia who staged that discussion to try to set up a mislynch. I've said that sounds stupidly suicidal (and the rancore of evryone didnt seem staged either).

With that not putting a vote down REALLY bothers me. Especially in conjunction with the fact starting day two its been... K7/Gimbo again.

Feelings - Likely Lurker Scum

Others I have questions about at this point in time:

* - Gimbo. Of COURSE he's going to take some flak for that play. The way the push has been coming makes me wonder about the reasons the others have pushed. I, still, think he's town but lord the gameplay has went down since the lynch.
* - Joubert. 5 posts this entire game. He feels like he makes the half-cases and sees if anyone else is going to run with them. Also his "I suspect I'll be thought of as scummy for my little amount of posts" statement REALLY bothers me. Not to mention the position and, honestly, lack of reasoning for his vote on Forbidden.
* - K7. Lurking a bit too much. Again, I still think he's town but I would like more out of him.
* - Bogre. It doesn't strike me right to say to look for scum positionally on a lynch he wasn't even willing to step up and be a part of.

Woo, that's a lot of words, but lets end it with the good stuff.

Unvote
Vote: FaerieLord

Between the "I dont vote often" then voting for Manito, pushing for a lynch you never actually voted for AND "I'll do what the town says" AND not posting information because they didn't want to "muddle" the discussion (which led to a lynch they obviously distanced themselves from) I dont like.

FYI - Even if forbid WAS scum I'd still have my vote here. This play is scummy either way.

[SpyreX]

Woo, I walk again into the fire.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure about Manito, thus the vote.

You know what? That wouldn't bother me... IF you hadn't done the whole "I rarely vote" and managed to, with a lot more to go on, form a definite opinion day 1 at all.

It's pretty simple. I could have either voted for Forbiddan since common sense stated that she was scummy or I could have followed my gut and not voted for her.

And...in not voting for her you also choose to not to vote for anyone else or, really, bring up any cases of merit. Like I said then - if you dont like the lynch, say so. Sitting on the sidelines isn't going to help the town.

Where did I ever mention a hammer? Also, it's not an over reaction. I cannot see where you see that.

Arm mentioned hammering FL, you immediately replied with your statement. It was, of course, obvious you couldn't be hammered so to me it appears as a overreaction to something that wasn't even involving you.

This kinna annoys me. I have two posts full of information to digest, one of which has 3 PbPas and people are saying I didn't post information.

I didn't say you didn't post lots of words, I said you didn't post a lot of information. And, even more frustrating, you didn't DO anything with the information you had posted. No votes, no FoS's, nothing. You just tossed it out there...like you were going to see who would run with it.

BUT, again about you're information..
Your first large post really doesn't lay out cases, its just sniping statements per post.
Then, you dole out some small nuggets of advice.
THEN...

@ The Forbiddan Case: Have any of you guys played against disciple of something. He played so bad, people thought he was a jester. He also had a master plan, but people called bullshit and lynched him. I'm not saying forbiddan light is town here, but take it into consideration that she might just be a very bad player, with all due respect to her. Ehh, thinking about it,

I think lynching her is a good idea

. Trying to change directions will not be a good move at this point since she'll just keep playing awfully.

"I've seen people play like this and they got hung but they were town but I'm not saying forbidden is town but she might be but Hell lets lynch her but I'm not voting for it."

Your second information post:
Person 1 and 2 haven't said much in this game (and mention Manito's agreeing which, at this point, I had already commented on) and then lay some suspicion on Gimbo. Keep in mind I dont think any of these would be a "case".

Also, you make mention of Forbidden AGAIN but dont vote.

With this, though, the two that floor me are:

All this is not fabricated and is not gut. It is truly what you did. You have continously been agreeing (Barning in one word, which is believe it or not, a scum tell),

trying to look nice on both sides of the fence (Which is also a scum tell)

and have not provided any original content,

thus fence sitting (which is also a scum tell)

.

You have said that Forbid may be town but lets lynch her.
You managed to not put a vote down all of day 1 and, thus, truly sat the fence.

So, by your own admission, you're using your own scumtells.

I have said I find three people nobody else mentioned as scummy.

Manito had been mentioned.
Gimbo...even in the random stages he was mentioned for his playstyle which is what you said (despite the meta)

Confirm Vote: FaerieLord

[SpyreX]

If he was town, which I did not believe to be the case anyway, there wouldn't have been the rush to remove him from thread, more a warning, as the mafia would have already known who town are.

This is very, very weak. Have some faith in our mod - regardless of what caused it, ANY of us would have had the same thing happen. Its not like because of his alignment it was treated differently.

So, saying his removal means he was scum is just..wrong.

[SpyreX]

Hmmmm.... and what do you know of Gimbo's alignment?

Nothing, of course. Personally, I think he was town.

However, thats not the point I'm making. I'm saying the argument of "the mod took him out instead of modkilling him, therefore he is scum" is a BAD one.

[SpyreX]

Correction: YOUR statement really bothers ME. Because as I can see, you will stick to it. Gimme Hell, boy... Come on...

What am I sticking to? Pick your poison:
That you have a low post count?
That, you made the statement that it would make you thought of as scummy (instead of rectifying it if you thought it was scummy)?
That you've made half-cases and haven't really done anything with them?
Or...that you were on the wagon without really explaining your vote?

Bullshit. This is retrospective self-confirmation. This can be forged anywhere in any circumstance. And the fact that you also confirm this "mention" is more of a oddball, actually...

I'm not sure what i've done that sticks in your craw, but thats fine. I did NOT build cases on them because they didn't vote. I thought they were scummy and the fact they also didn't vote was another thing I noticed I felt was commenting about.

The second part of that statement was: I've gotten into why a little bit, but later on I'll post more in detail.

This, of course, implies that there was things I had mentioned before AND that I was going to post more in detail later... if it was because they didn't vote, what else would I say?

And, for the record... that thing I've questioned you about with your half-cases and seeing if someone will take the banner forward for you? You're doing it again, right above here.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, you said I made half-cases. Do you have any advice as to how I could transform them into whole-cases? I mean, if there's not enough material to work with, it's hard to come to clear hypothesis, let alone clear conclusions...

It's really not that hard to make a half into a whole. Key 1 is actually placing a vote, explaining why. The other part of it would be taking more than one thing and putting it together cohesively to support your vote.

Statments like:

Really scummy, but no explanation about it...

Just BEG for someone else to take up your comment and make a case on it. That doesn't do the town any good and, to me, makes you appear really, really scummy.

Opinons aren't bad. It's when someone is trying to push discussion without really stating their opinions that bothers me.

[SpyreX]

First Off, I've come to get a laugh out of Gimbo, but I'm glad Llama is here. Those posts are interesting with their take on things. I'm not gonna talk too much about them, except clearing up a few things about my posts he mentioned:

(110) spyrex is confused
(252) spyrex says forbiddan is fundamentally the best lynch
(263) spyrex thinks if forbiddan is town,

FS

should be looked at
(321) spyrex expresses some uncertanty about his vote
(326) Spyrex wants to look at the people who didnt vote, in contrast to his 263 ideas
(345) spyrex puts up cases on FL, LTG and

FS

1.) I wasn't confused as much as just baffled. The play seemed wrong regardless of role.
2.) After the way Day 1 went, yes, forbiddan was the best lynch choice (high probability of being scum as well as information gathered from the votes leading to it.)
3.) Yep.
4.) Yes, I did. Her defense was starting to make me wonder if it WAS actually a really weird town move (which it ended up being).
5.) Sigh, this has been brought up before somewhere. There is no contrast. FS WAS one of the non-voters.
6.) Just highlighting.

Now, its been hinted at or asked, why do I think Manito is town?

There's two major reasons why, currently, I think he is town. One, I believe him - I've done the "me too" business before when someone posts something I think makes sense AND I am pressed for time.
The second reason is, really, when this got him brought up on the radar he didn't drastically change his style. Part of why I mentioned him WAS to see if he would change his play and he didn't. This isn't a OMG he is SOOO town, but currently, I feel that he is town.

Aside from that, little shenanigans, I've got a few questions
@FL:
1.) Why did you make the statement: If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige.
2.) Who do you think is scum at this point?
3.) Why didn't you place ANY vote Day 1?

@CF Riot:
1.) What do you think about Joubert?
2.) What do you think about Bogre?
3.) What do you think about Laptop?
4.) What do you think about armlx?

@Manito:
1.) Who do you think are scum at this point aside from FL?

@Everyone Currently Without a Vote:
1.) WHY haven't you chimed in with a case on someone and voted for pete's sake?

[SpyreX]

I already answered this. Before we dealt with forbiddan, having another case come up would be hard. A forbiddan lynch was needed unless town suddenly found another new wagon that would gain as much traction as the forbiddan wagon.

I said then, and I say it again.

Have opinions. We don't need lemmings.

If you didn't agree with the forbiddan wagon (which, oddly enough your posts dont agree with) not only SHOULD you be giving a different case but, honestly, it is the towns responsibility to do so. Novoting really isn't an option, ever.

Because I didn't think forbiddan was scum and any vote I posted would be lost or considered scummy

If you didn't think forbiddan was scum, why would you just go along with the town and suggest you'd help lynch (which you didn't even do).
The second part of this statement baffles me. You were worried that your vote would be either ineffectual or considered scummy because it wasn't on someone you felt was town?
In fact, with a case, why would anyone think it's scummy?
AND, even if they did, so what? Being an active part of the town is going to get some heat, as it should. If we all just stand back and be reactive nothing is ever going to get done. I bet more than a few people think I'm scummy and, really, I dont care all that much - I'll let my actions speak for themselves.

Just like you have, which is why my vote is staying here.

[SpyreX]

Because the lynch had to be done so that the game could move forward. If we hadn't lynched forbiddan we would still be discussing her

Redirection and making an already large wagon lose traction?

If they did find it scummy, I'd still end up making the forbiddan wagon lose traction.

I can stand the heat, which is why I started a wagon myself on manito, but putting heat on me back then was not a good idea

The goal isn't getting ANY lynch, it's lynching scum. Funny thing is, if you honestly felt they were town, you SHOULD be saying something about it and why. Who knows what would have happened, but there is more than a slight chance it may have derailed it and, lo and behold, we would have found scum.

At the very least you should make your opinion known.

Worrying about it making you look scummy is, well, scummy. None of us want to die, but worrying about living over trying to HUNT SCUM is not a towny way to play.

If this is your defense, I'm not buying it. You distanced yourself and didn't form a true opinion until after the fact.

[SpyreX]

We're past the point where chiming in without saying anything is going to work. I'd really like some content and a vote.

AT THE THIRD TONE, THE TIME WILL BE...

FaerieLord - 4 (SpyreX, Manito, Knight of Cydonia, Corinthian)
killa seven - 2 (CF Riot, LaptopGun)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Firestarter)
Firestarter - 1 (armlx)
Knight of Cydonia - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, ShadowGirl, dcorbe, Bogre

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[SpyreX]

Thats the thing - you're saying you didn't agree, but you didn't TRY to make it not happen. You, by not arguing against or making a different real case with a vote, actively let it happen.

There's no real reason to do that.

[SpyreX]

I think, again, we're getting of course.

I'd like some content and a vote from Joubert, real bad like.

I know I need to do a not-FL influenced reread, but its soo hard when they're soo scummy.

[SpyreX]

Now tell me, could you get town consensus that she was no scum?

If, necessary, you could have been far more vocal about it if you felt that way. The thing is, really, I felt all along that you were fine with the lynch yet put in those qualifiers to look better when she turned up town (which you knew).

While I'm at it. Just because a person has fewer scum tells, does not mean he is less likely scum. If someone stays in the sidelines and stays as cautious as possible, it's obvious that he won't have scum tells to his name.

Thats what you DID all of Day 1. All of it. I dont understand how you can keep making statements like this when, by your own volition, that would reinforce my problems with your Day 1 play.

[SpyreX]

No. You are missing the entire point. First of all, being vocal is not enough to turn around an entire town. Second of all, that lynch was needed. If we had lynched someone else day 1.0, we would be discussing forbiddan yet again.

I'm not missing the point. Being vocal is a HUGE part of turning around the town. Silence doesn't get us anything. Not voting doesn't get us anything.

Now, I said that I thought forbiddan was scum because of the play AND that I didn't want her there at lylo. That does not mean that I lived and breathed forbiddan. Hell, her defense made me falter some in my decision.

So, if you believed she was town and pushed it some, maybe other avenues of discussion would have came up. Maybe not. It's a ballsy claim to say that all we'd be doing is discussing forbiddan STILL.

If you thought she was town, you should have said so. Hell, you could have said "I really think she is town, so I am voting for Y and this is why" but you didn't. You sat there.

But there's a big difference in the fact he went with general town consensus while I didn't.

I don't CARE what the town consensus was. I care that you, in that whole business, didn't vote for anyone. "I rarely vote" isn't going to cut it - especially when you come out voting the next day. We dont have power roles, or any fancy tricks - just deduction and a vote. Your play day 1 gave that away to the majority.

If we're going to talk about scumtells and all that, that right THERE is the biggest one to me. Your vote is your only weapon and you're saying that even though you thought the mob was wrong you weren't willing to wield it because you were afraid for yourself. That's why I think you're scum.

[SpyreX]

Forbid's case was confusing, and one should not be forced to agree or disagree with a lynch they are unsure of.

Actually, this is one spot I really disagree with you CF - it's much better to have an opinion one way or another versus just letting it slide. Furthermore, the arguments for NOT posting something have been very irritating and, ultimately, not town.

I'll look at the other cases, but I am NOT letting this one go.

[SpyreX]

Were you going to say anything about the four suspects you asked me to look at? Was there a reason you picked those people, or a reason you asked me to give an opinion on them?

Actually, I was kind of wondering about if you were scum or not. I had feelings on them and, of course, some of those would have been easy pushes for a scum to make. You made good points without just agreeing with my opinions on them. So, no, I wasn't going to say much unless something in it made me think it was scummy.

I agree he shouldn't be let off without an opinion, I just mean you should never be forced to lock in a vote when you're still undecided about a person, especially in the context of Forbid's situation where only 1 or 2 votes were left before she was lynched. Not saying it's okay that he didn't have any vote, just he shouldn't be reprehended for not having a definite stance on Forbid.

Ultimately, it's not just not having a definite stance; its not having ANY stance day one and then coming out of the gate day 2 with a case. Its the whole ebb and flow of what FL did (in comparison to the other two novoters who, for different reasons, I think are scummy as well).

I think, for a bit, this is going to be the last exchange with FL - we're getting to the point the signal to noise is getting too high. BUT, again into the fire:

Then if you were faltering, why was it not indicated? A lot of people sounded pretty dead set on her.

Go read what I said, especially towards the end of the lynch, it was pretty obviously indicated I was having doubts. However, I still thought that the overall method and actions were more scummy than not, so.

Can I ask you a question? Can you describe your meta to me?

Want a meta? Sure. Here's my meta: Meta's are retarded.
Hiding behind a meta is garbage. I've dealt with it in more than one game where playing poorly or doing something that doesn't make sense as town being pushed aside because its "their meta".
So, my meta is reading the game, building cases based on whats going on, and not hiding behind a meta.
I SURE wouldn't try to use my meta as a defense.

I didn't "not wield it" because I was afraid of myself. I decided to "not wield it" so that the discussion could move forward.

Discussion always moves forward. Agreeing, even tacitly, with something you're trying to say you didn't agree with isn't helpful at all.

I disagree. A townie should formost try to search for scum, but he should still try to survive.

If I made myself look scummy, I'd be another dead townie in the end of the day

.

Barring a choice, it's better to take one scum down with you, even if it makes you look scummy.

But if I had a choice to not look scummy and continue scumhunting, why shouldn't I take it?

So, by scumhunting you mean saying nothing day 1 and jumping out day 2 with a case?

I dont understand how you can worry about looking scummy and not want to die and yet, somehow, make the claim the sacrifice is worth it (the latter part I agree with, the former I obviously dont).

I probably look scummy for pushing you to some players. Fine. Don't care. Shouldn't care. I'm pushing what I think is right and I'm having an opinion. Just like I did day 1.

[SpyreX]

Wow, really? Nothing to back that up? Just the vote?

[SpyreX]

Wait, llama - are you saying that I started this train and three scum jumped on it in succession or that I'm scum?

[SpyreX]

I understand your thought process and I'm not making statements about their alignments since I dont know, but it would seem really odd for me to have scum be the 2nd-4th votes on a wagon. One I could see, POSSIBLY 2, but not all 3.

Of them, Corin strikes me as the most off, mostly because he's been lurking. I'm trying to stay out of further debates for a bit with FL (to hopefully spark different discussions).

I like Arm's post on Fire. I'm waiting for some responses to get a better read.

[SpyreX]

I am still very comfortable with my FL lynch, however this new avenue already promises to be interesting.

Firestarter, your first analysis of arm honestly feels like an OMGUS.

The arguments of not being interested, yet posting because he's scum, really dont make sense.

Arm has been very detached from this game but I haven't got a scumvibe from him, at all. He's one of the few.

You, however, have been higher profile for me and this last set of reasoning doesn't help it any.


As an aside, Bogre's vote with nothing behind it bothers me even more than this. Joubert falling off the face of the earth again also is fairly annoying.


Vote stays, though.

[SpyreX]

I'm with you KoC. Hell, you caught that and I had to pull my jaw back up. I'm not sure what we expect, a blazing "HAY I IS SCUM" sign?

As for the Firestarter / Arm debate:
I've read it, read it a couple times now.
Firestarter you're not bringing up points that the rest of the town is going to address - its very focused looking for Firestarters responses.
Further, and this is just me, from reading your "nothing, just filler" comments - most of them are far more than just filler.
At the least, you got arm posting, and that is good.

And, for all this talk of FoS and whatnot, like I said, you were one of three non-voters yesterday. You didn't vote for someone else, you didn't do anything - you distanced yourself from the lynch. Is that town or scum? Not sure yet. But yes, you did it.

[SpyreX]

Firestarter is scummy for fueling the fl lynch then jumping off at the end so he could set up for attacking those who actually did the voting today, as well as his manipulative defenses all game.

After a reread, I'm definitely starting to agree with this. However, I'm still nowhere near as sure about that as I am FL.

[SpyreX]

Hmm, lets see.

FL went from being non-committal day 1 to the point of not voting once that day to an instant case built on much less than was discussed day 1 as well as being caught in a 540 (I think we've went 1 and 1/2 rotations) so far on their opinion of Forbidden.

That may be too concise, but you get the point.

[SpyreX]

I think my problems with this whole meta discussion are very simple.

Meta's (and WIFOM) aren't inherently bad. There are situations where they exist. However, they should not and are not valid defenses. Hiding behind a meta in any fahsion is scummy play.

But you fail to realise, that me saying that forbiddan lynching was needed was not scummy behaviour in my eyes. Some lynches must be done. Stop hoping for the best. It ain't happening.

There was at least one other player that said they felt the lynch needed to go through regardless of alignment - a bold statement and partially worrisome, but that doesn't bother me. The fact you felt the lynch needed to go through, said you would hammer it, but never voted for it is what gets me. The sidelines cheering on of what, as you've said, you felt was a towny REGARDLESS of the reason is the giant red flag.

[SpyreX]

I was in the game for 3 days. I wasn't directly involved in the forbiddan case. I wasn't going to just pop in and vote. Sure, putting my money were my mouth is would have been better, especially after making bold statements, and to that extent you may be right that it is a scummy action, I'll give you that, but saying that someone is scummy for "staying in the sidelines" for 3 days, where I could have just lurked until the day was over, and posted afterwords, is kinna meh.

If I really wanted to avoid getting my hands dirty, I could have done just that, and no one would notice for three days.

See, I'm glad you can see its scummy what happened. However, lurking and not saying anything about the case ALSO would have been scummy. I would have noticed you not saying anything about it when you replaced in, and I think its safe to say I wouldn't be the only one. I assume you are a solid player so I think you know the latter would have been apparent as well.

[SpyreX]

Well, I would have. In 3 days, I'd expect enough of a reread to have an opinion. So, I, personally would have.

Like I've said before though, we're going in circles and I would like to hear some other people's opinions of whats going on.

Sweatpants, you dont like either of the main discussion points going on. Any solid feelings on who you think are scum?

[SpyreX]

...did you just say you're going to hunt down a reason for an OMGUS?

[SpyreX]

I'm not sold on you being scum, but for you to accuse someone of slidin this game is almost enough to make my head explode.

[SpyreX]

Makes sense, but justement, doesn't it look TOO obvious? The interpretation says basically: I think he's Town, but I vote him. Just too obvious. It is suspect of course, but it's a very easy conclusion to come to as well...

It is very suspect, and that is why it bothers me. I know I err on the side of paranoia, but I cant help it.

I could say the same thing for Meta Analysis. Basing conclusions on Meta is not necessarily scummy, but it's far from safe. I'm also astonished about the importance a "shit" can bear for some people. I can imagine from here: "He said "shit"! Oh my! Lynch him ultra quick! Aaaah!

Yes, any cases with that "shit" as a major part of it are silly, very silly.

Except when its true.....

If your meta is acting as scummy as possible, you're not being a team player and the major reason you're doing it is for an edge when you are actually scum instead of town. What bothers me is that, ultimately, people with that kind of retarded meta live forever because 1.) its hard for the town to come to a consensus to kill them and 2.) the scum NEVER kills them.
So, ACTIVELY playing with a scummy meta is like being a secret scum member and its retarded /rant
(this wasn't directed at arm, just a response).

A few interesting points in that case though involve Spyrex's word being taken as "word of god" and FL called scummy for doing something different.

Whos in the what now? I missed something.

[SpyreX]

Sorry to hear it man, good luck with that (I had a rough patch during my engagement too).

[SpyreX]

Llama, I think thats only a part of his case, but I dont think its the word of god on my end but the inaction on the other that led him that way?

[SpyreX]

Not true. I invite you to read games ZeekLTK was in.

My newbie has Zeek AND PEG in it.

[SpyreX]

I want Killer to post more content. At heart, I'm still seeing this as a lurker lynch and I have a hard time agreeing with that this early.

[SpyreX]

This is not me "not playing" anymore. This is just me getting bored repeating. You know what I've answered for these last number of days, and suffice to say, my answer has not changed. If I'm arsed, I'll try to bring up a decent case tomorrow

This I can understand. I think, regardless, we've got all we can out of it for now.

Consider yourself arsed.

[SpyreX]

Hold up a sec, today is the deadline?

So, we've got two wagons with some force behind them. I do not think that we're going to be able to get steam on any other ones if today is deadline. I DO NOT want a nolynch.

I still honestly believe in my case on FL. I do not want that to fall to the wayside.

K7's play has been unhelpful and his comments have been, well, scummy. However, the one thing people keep bringing up (his jump on the forbid train) I did not find to be a scum-move.

So, I dont like the fact this case is being pushed the way it is, but I do understand it. If today is really deadline I'm sad we're doing a last-minute scramble.

Unvote:
Vote: K7

[SpyreX]

...

Well, I'm retarded I guess.

Hindsight using the word hypothetical in there would of been better, at least we know who SPyrexs #2 is though

Nope, funny thing is he's not my number 2, at all.

See, I hate lurkers, and I doubly hate ones that pop in and are scummy. However, I see scummy actions in some of the active players so I would not, except to avoid a mislynch, vote on a case on day 1 that is, ultimately, a lurker case.

Would you be willing to vote Killa, on the guarantee that if he flips scum, I will listen to whatever case you want to make against Corin, whose only crime I can see is lurking?

This statement at first really bothers me, but I think I understand what he's saying "You're voting for lurker X, I'm voting for luker Y. If you vote for X and he's scum, I'd be willing to listen to lurker Y being scum (as, I feel, between the two lurkers X has shown more scummy behavior).

Honestly, at this point, I think both should not be lynched but, between the two, I think K7 has behaved scummier.

Like I said, neither are my #2. That awesome medal goes to Firestarter. The exchanges between him and arm have really made me think he's scum.

BUT, if its not deadline, I'm going back to who I believe to be scum.

Unvote
Vote: FaerieLord

[SpyreX]

I could see at some point the bargaining being useful - Hell, I could see situations where I would do it.

I just dont see either lurker as a real lynch for today.

[SpyreX]

Ok, I'll half-bite.

Right now I'm not seeing him steering the forbidden lynch. Yes, his other coming out of lurking plays have not been great, but I'm not sold on it.

I think the interplay between his vote and statement (which fits his play) and forbid pushed the lynch but HE himself didn't. Show me otherwise.

[SpyreX]

ATM, there is alot going on in this thread, with several players targeting several other players, its very easy for K7 to lie low and hope the interest generated in him dies down today...

Not going to happen. As the game goes on, those people who are being unhelpful will be called out and forced to respond. I just think now isn't the time.

BTW, please quote what you're responding to. For not arm, your replies dont help at all without context and I, personally, hate opening up two copies to figure out whats going on.

[SpyreX]

Right now, as I've said, I feel that his "anti-town" is because he's a lurker more than anything else. A scummy posting lurker when he finally pops his head up, but the crux is the lurking.

I dont like day 1 lurk-lynches. That's all I mean by it. At all.

If you ask me if I think he's a BAD player a town? Of course I'd agree.
If you ask me if he's been scummy? Yep, again.
If you ask me if he's scum? Thats the one I'm not sold on.

I'm looking forward to the PBPA analysis.

[SpyreX]

Because I see the case as persuing a scummy-lurker versus the more scummy play i've seen from FL which is where my vote is.

The one thing K7 has actually really done, that vote on forbidden, I personally see as the overeager townie. Everything else feels like lurking?

As you saw when I thought it was deadline, I am not reluctant to vote him. I am just more confident with where my vote is now.

[SpyreX]

K7,

I'll ask you this one thing.

Give a read of the whole game. Give, in one post, your feelings on it and your top 2 suspects and why.

I want to see some real content out of you.

[SpyreX]

A quick note:

But the mod of this game, was a player in that other game, and posted immediately afterwards, stating Gimbo was to be replaced. I thought that if Gimbo was town, he would not have had to replaced, maybe warned. But the fact he was replaced immediately gave me the distinct impression that Gimbo was scum.

Talking about the game was clearly stated as getting you the boot. It was early enough that he was replaced instead. This would have happened regardless of alignment. Using this to judge Gimbo either way is very, very faulty.

Also, a revelation.

KoC - your argument didn't sell me.

However, K7's replies sure did.

Unvote
Vote K7

[SpyreX]

I am not sure that is the best way to go about things. If armlx is mafia, then he is most likely voting a townie.

The problem is you're assuming arm is mafia. Town or mafia, he could be voting for town or mafia. Your statement implies two heavy assumptions that are hard to make at this juncture.

[SpyreX]

"If lynched, which of my suspects' roles will give me the most information about remaining players?"

Well, a huge part of my voting process is simply trying to lynch scum. Yes, I'd prefer to lynch an active scummy player versus a lurker at this point, but my first and foremost is "Do I think this person is scum?"

Everything else is secondary.

I think K7 has been scummier and scummier with each of his posts and, although on some level I can understand letting him live to look for connections - do you really think he's going to be stupid enough to do that now that its been said?

[SpyreX]

Things have died, so I decided to be a cool kid and do a re-read. No notes or anything, just a reread of the whole game to see if anything really stood out.

Some things I noticed:

1.) Firestarter's play HAS been off. Enough for me to even make a statement as such on day 1 and it sure as hell hasn't gotten better since the armix/FS fiasco.

2.) I can't pinpoint it, but there seems to be, in reading, a connection between Firestarter and LaptopGun - I'll have to do a deeper analysis to why, but reading their posts thats sure the feeling I got.

3.) Joubert's play still really bothers me and it hasn't improved at all.

4.) K7 is scummy as getout and it seems like it gets worse, not better, as the game progresses.

5.) FaerieLord still strikes me as scummy.

6.) The amount of time we discussed metas is retarded - almost as retarded as the metas themselves.

7.) We are WAY dysfunctional as a town - It really seems like, at any given point, half the town is ignoring what is going on.

So, my vote is sitting where it is. Faerie / FS are both still large scumtargets as well.

[SpyreX]

If his meta is scummy enough if distorts normal scum tells, letting him live for it is just retarded.

Its things like this why I hate metas. They're not a damn shield and they shouldn't be.

[SpyreX]

I'm voting him because I think his play has been very scummy, especially as it goes on.

I'm not going to not lynch him because he's developed a meta that would allow for such behavior to slide through the cracks.

If I played scummy consistently, I'd expect to be lynched for it. Maybe then I'd, maybe, just change my playstyle to try and help the town some?

(I'm not irritated at you, I'm just irritated at metas and how they're being used in the games I'm in a lot)

[SpyreX]

Well, the scum sure isn't going to ever kill him and, honestly, I dont want him here at lylo. So, yep, maybe I'm just a dick now, but I think he's scummy and I'm fine with lynching him for it.

TNUOCETOV

killa seven - 6 (TheSweatpantsNinja, Firestarter, Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, StrangerCoug, Corinthian)
Manito - 3 (FaerieLord, LlamaFluff, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

Not Voting - Joubert, orangepenguin

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[SpyreX]

^^ This kind of business is why my vote is here and is staying here.

[SpyreX]

*sigh*

Ok, here's the deal. Personally, I dont think Corin has been scummy this game. K7, however has.

Moreso, though, I want to see the game MOVE FORWARD.

So, here's the deal. If the wagon to Corin moves ahead like it looks like its going to, fine, I'll go along.

When Corin comes up town, I want for the rest of the damn game the term "meta" to be stricken from the records. I'd like to see people get lynched for their behavior this game.

If I'm wrong about Corin, I'll give a little more credence to this whole meta discussion. As it sits, I'm tiiired of it and I'd like to see the game actually progress based on the play of this game.

[SpyreX]

So yeah, any further questions on why Corin should be getting lynched instead of K7? He has been setting up a FL lynch forever which he recently abandoned in light of a easier wagon, he refuses to answer my cases against him, he dismisses most arguments that defend his suspects, he is obv scum.

I saw FL acting funny "forever" and although not forgotten, I have moved my vote to K7 because, although I feel FL is scum, there was no way to make that happen today and K7 HAS been scummy.

Does that make me scum?

[SpyreX]

I'm not sure if I should vote K7, or give any opinion, because I need to give my reasons, or, in other words, create a new reason by scratching the bottom of the barrel. I can't just use other people's reasoning and say I agree.

If I do that, I may be suspected...

What?

What?

It shouldn't be hard to get an opinion and move ahead with it - and, of course, chances are there will be SOME overlap but lord, it shouldn't be a parroted case. Why the hell would you worry that much about suspicion?

FoS: Joubert

- Seriously man.

[SpyreX]

I know we've went over this before, but if your meta is "being scummy" then your meta is worthless and can not be used as a shield.

What if I decided to never post more than one line and always throw the hammer down if I had the option. That -could- be a meta, but if it was I would be justified in getting killed for it a million times.

[SpyreX]

So, meta is a shield for K7, but a noose for Corin?

I dont think Corin has been scummy to this point. K7 has.

[SpyreX]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. If it comes down to lynching Corin, fine. If he turns up town, the word meta becomes a lynchable offense and we lynch K7. Deal?

[SpyreX]

I think you're missing the point I'm making. I think that we're putting WAY too much weight on metas and not enough on what's actually going on in the game.

K7 is a perfect example of this. I dont think ANYONE is going to say he's playing a pro-town game at all. Yet, we're not going to hang him today. The arguments to hang him aren't going to change and the arguments NOT to hang him can not by their nature (unless he starts playing differently... but then what, hang him for being active helpful town?)

See my problem. I, this game, dont find Corin to be scummy. However, I find FaerieLord and K7 to be - and both of them have had at least one person defend the actions based on "meta". Thats ridiculous and encourages bad play.

[SpyreX]

Lets just start from the beginning. Would someone care to summarize the cases on each person who they think meta is being used to skew an attack on?

Sure, I'll bite.

1.) FaerieLord - the "I rarely vote" proceeded with the out-of-the gate vote day 2. You: The I rarely vote is a meta, but it was discussed and removed.

2.) Corinthian - Scummy becuase of a difference in his play (based on a sample size of 1).

3.) Killer 7 - Scummy as all getout, yet a "random" lynch at best. Reason: Scummy is his meta.

Of the three the one thats CLOSEST to actually having any merit is Corinthian. That is, at least "You played like X this game, but Y this game. This difference makes me think you are scummy." However, I dont see his play this game as scummy AND it has a whopping sample size of 1.

The other two, the meta business is "You are being scummy in game X. However you were scummy in games A and B and were town. Hence, you're town now."

See my problem? Based on the meta, the only time people would want to kill K7 is if he was being a useful, pro-town player. What does that ensure never happens? In what situations does that provide him an "advantage".

[SpyreX]

Have you see Llama's PBPA?

Yes, and I wasn't really convinced then and I'm not now. I am not Corin, so I'm not going to become some amazing lawyer for him but I haven't seen him as scummy this game. Not as much content as I'd like, but I'm not seeing the scum.

Of course, in all three examples, I wasn't providing the WHOLE case - just the examples of "meta" that are driving some of these major factors.

Ok, I would like to see the game move forward. What is that going to take? I think the Corin lynch is not optimal as it sits. In a perfect world I'd lynch Faerie btu we saw that isn't happening. So, I'd prefer my K7 target.

But, on some level, I dont care as much - we've been locked in stasis for a while now and I'd like to see it move.

[SpyreX]

Thats the thing though. The scum are NEVER going to kill him and this will be brought up every day and pish poshed away.

[SpyreX]

I'd like to see it as well.

[SpyreX]

This game is driving me absolutely batty. Can we come to a conclusion on anything?

This sniping between FS and arm is drivin me nuts.

K7 is power lurking, but hey, thats his meta right?

[SpyreX]

Done and done! I'm good at ignoring.

Anywho, my vote is on K7 so its obvious what I think on it.

[SpyreX]

No, his lynch is because he's scummy as all getout.

[SpyreX]

Well, the vacuum is "this entire game" not "every game he's ever played" so yea I'm weighing his play on this game.

[SpyreX]

I agree, but if he flips and comes up scum expect the same from me.

[SpyreX]

But the main proponents of the hunt on me.. have been lynched, and Ive helped in that... ZS & SG.

Umm, what?

[SpyreX]

Arm - for the list (I thought it was kinda clear): FaerieLord, Firestarter, K7

I WANT MY BABY BACK BABY BACK BABY BACK...

killa seven - 5 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin, Joubert)
Corinthian - 4 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch, 5 at deadline.

-Mod

[SpyreX]

I'll admit that I've stagnated here. It feels like walking in molasses. I dont think without a flip at this point unless someone goes "I AM SCUM" I'm really going to change my mind. I would vote for any of my suspects without issue.

[SpyreX]

Although the FoS really is about as helpful as farting into the wind in regards to the votes, I do see some merit into what Llama was saying.

@The Non-Voters:

K7 wasn't my first choice, hell, he wasn't my second choice. However, of the people who have potential to actually be lynched (K7 & Corin) I think that K7 is much more likely to be scum.

Unless you have exact balance between the two of them, I would like to see votes up just because it DOES provide some information. Yes, part of this is selfishness because, at this point, I mostly want to see the damn game move forward.

At this point, voting for anyone but the two of them is exactly the same as not-voting - I'd much rather see us push this through to a real lynch instead of a deadline one.

[SpyreX]

What info could you gain from a real lynch that you couldn't from a deadline lynch? And now that you've brought it up yourself Spyre, I've been wondering, why are you voting your number 3 pick, instead of maybe FS? Corin only has 6 votes at this point, and there are that many people who would like FS lynched as well. I'm proposing the theory that some of the people putting FS on their 3 pick list are doing it for show, and are scum. They don't actually want him lynched, but rather would like to say they want him lynched to avoid suspicion from people like Arm and I.

And now I see as I write this, Arm is of the opposite opinion. (sigh)

Having everyone place a vote is always better than having people, in essence, no voting. Votes are more information.

Corin has enough for deadline lynch already and, with the pace of this game, the chance of getting a NEW lynch is almost impossible. Not to mention, if I did try to push for someone, I'd want to push for FL and that would take us back to right where we're at now.

I'm voting for K7 because, between the two major lynch candidates, I think K7 has been scummier.

So tomorrow, if one of these guys die, is the other going to be right back up there as the vote leader?

Not from me - although, with the way this game has been going we'll twirl and twirl around in circles and THEN the mod will impose a deadline and THEN we'll be in the exact same position we are in now.

In a perfect world, I wouldn't have voted for either today. This world isn't perfect so I'm voting for the scummier of the two.

[SpyreX]

No, we stagnated until there was a deadline and then waited until we had only the two choices.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if both are town. However, K7 has been scummy and of the two, thats my push.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, that is easily a justification the mafia could use to skate by without looking scummy for a lynch. Whether it's just stagnation or not, the day was terribly played by the town. We let ourselves fall into this predicament (and for all I know, the mafia had a little manipulation). Can anyone put together a strong case against either K7 (who I think is town) or corin (who I think is more likely mafia) that doesn't basiccally boil down to "these 2 acted fairly scummy, and oh wait its the deadline so choose?" I hate the mntality that most of you have been passing off as pragmatism.

It IS pragmatism though. What are our other choices? You want to no lynch? Build a case on someone else when deadline is tomorrow?

The only way this outcome is going to be absolutely bad is if they BOTH are town and tomorrow we do the exact same thing and end up lynching the other. Otherwise, as long as we learn from this and be more proactive then we wont run into the issue again.

[SpyreX]

Yeee-haw we done sure got a townie deadline lynched and only have 6 people on the wagon to look at! Great job, folks. 6/15 could easily be an all town push - 8/15 wouldn't have been (thats for CFR who asked why its better to have a real one versus a policy one).

Regardless, I'm gonna do a reread on those 6 people and see if any stand out (except for FL, but thats a lost cause I can tell already).

Even if I ignore Gimbo's case, LlamaFluff attempted to stop discussion about Corinthian to get people to vote him (which makes no sense) and FoS'd everybody not voting for either of killa seven or Corinthian, neither of which rubs right on my reread.

Give some examples of this behavior, please. And, with this, why are you voting for K7 over Llama when, of the two, you've actually said something solid (being the better person to go after).

I'll admit, watching day 1.5 go down the way it did killed a lot of my ability to hunt and persue for now. I'll check in after my reread.

[SpyreX]

Do my dreams come true? Do we, in fact, get to push on FL today? Or is this all a LIE?

Either way, I'm more than happy to get back on this train for all the reasons I listed way back when + the most scummy of the 6 voters yesterday.

Vote: FaerieLord

@SC -

847 does seem off. 1084, really not as much - LF was not the only one hoping to get the people to actually vote where it mattered.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX it's hard at this point in the game but if FL was scum who do you think his partners would be?

Honeslty, I'm not sure what you hope to gain and I can, and suspect, there will be a minor storm of WTF from me even talking about it but hey, why not.

If FL is scum, I could see:
1.) Firestarter - In his analysis he questions the play and makes points, but then immediately jumps on Armlx - not to mention the whole Armlx-FS firefight for pages upon pages.
2.) K7 the day 2 events really did push K7 towards the back burner and, if FL is scum, I could see this as a yin-yang dance to try and make sure at least one of them has odds to make it.
3.) Armlx - Now, personally, I dont think Arm has been scummy most game. However, the meta defense on FL coupled with the push-pull early on between them Arm did start to push on some of the comments FL made, but never voted, etc. (Part of this is the new Arm / Spyre Meta of having Meta discussions. )

But, really, this doesn't mean much. The only scum pairing that would floor me is Arm / Firestarter.

I could see 1 and 2 above seperate from FL. I could also see Joubert, or LF (Gimbo'd) or SC for the strange behavior. Hell, KoC or OP wouldn't bother me.

What I'm gettin at is we've been a scummy town.

[SpyreX]

Honestly, I'm a little surprised. I mean, I dont -really- suspect you at this point but this seems like a weird setup.

But, you know what? I'll dance just to spice things up.

Unvote, Vote: Firestarter

BAM

PAGE 50!

Firestarter - 3 (CF Riot, armlx, SpyreX)
FaerieLord - 2 (Manito, Knight of Cydonia)
Knight of Cydonia - 1 (LlamaFluff)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, FaerieLord, Firestarter, orangepenguin, StrangerCoug

With 13 alive, it would be 7 to lynch, but because it's Page 50, it's 50 to lynch!

Happy Page 50!

-Mod

[SpyreX]

It's definitely different, thats for sure. Way too ballsy for a scum to pull, imo. And, hell, FS has been on my list so yes I'll swing some support for it.

I do like Jouberts hop in and one liner, though.

[SpyreX]

Not whoever - K7 or FL. (Hint, it'll probably be the latter). Its not a simple "give me your vote I'll give you mine." Both the people we'd both be voting for have been scummy - we just made a deal in which order we (as the game stands) will work to get rid of them. If something happens to change my mind I've got no qualms abandoning this but hell I thought FS was scummy and I've got no probalo helping move that along before I get back to business day 2.5 (or whatever damn day we're on).

[SpyreX]

Pretty much, just a unified voting block for the day.

[SpyreX]

After KoC's amazing scummove there I may be willing to shift FL back tomorrow for KoC - I dont think FS is going to be negotiable.

[SpyreX]

I've got LA for the next week, I'll try to catch up when I have computer again.

[SpyreX]

Checking in - There's been a lot of pages, but I still haven't seen too much really going on.

KoC - I'd really like to see your analysis of K7

Speaking of K7, its good to see he's not dead, yet, nothing.

@Firestarter:

What you're trying to say about the votes on you is understandable, but ultimately it has been a lot of words saying OMGUS. Why, even though I gave my vote to CFR today am I clear when none of them are? What is it specifically that makes you think they are scummy.

Ultimatley, you've spent most of this game (when you were active) fighting with armlx in a lot of words but not a lot said - and, really, from that exchange I've thought you scummy. Now, with a little pressure you coming out with what seems like a lot of rage but really, again, not saying a lot I think that we've hit a nail right on its head.

I'll try to keep checking, but I am not back home until the 10th.

[SpyreX]

Alright, still V/LA but I have a decent connection so I'll go ahead and give 'er a whirl.

Things in the last couple pages that bother me:

[quote=Firestarter"]In all fairness, in that game, as well as the others I was involved in, including this one.. I wasn't around too much to participate anyways.

Regardless, I still feel CFR is scum.....

Im looking at armlx, Koc, or SG as a possible partner or 2... depending on how many scum we have left.

I also have a horrible sensation that K7 is getting away with doing nothing, and falling further under his meta to avoid scrutiny...
But for that very reason, he is drawing no thunder...[/quote]

Now, lets look at this one bit by bit:
1.) He's put most of the vocal "pro-lynch" players in his mafia suspects. In addition, he's tossed in some of the other high-profile canidiates - including mentioning K7 later.
2.) The K7... is, again, building half a case to deflect. Not so good. Especially with the timing.

This seems like a very flailing post in general - I'll finally be home tomorrow so I might have a chance to put together all the nuggets of wisdom and it will be delicious.

Other players I'd be more than happy to give the rope to

:
1.) FL - for reasons stated over and over again (and notice the absence of real talking so far today).
2.) KoC - he's been diggin' a hole and I could really see the lynch.
3.) K7 - K7, enough said. I think the time will come soon enough when he's going to have to go.

An indecent proposal to CFR (that's gonna get me lynched. ):
So, I was thinking about our silly little vote sharing we're doing today...and I'm wondering what you'd think about 1.) extending the duration and 2.) extending the group... if armlx is interested.

I'll explain more why I see some benefit in this (even not knowing each others alignments) for a no-power role game and if I'm right we can crush our way to a win when I get a chance to post tomorrow.

But, yea, lets lynch us some FS now.

[SpyreX]

Spyre, explain at your convenience. I won't know my answer until I hear the question but it sounds fun. One question first though. Are you scum?

Nope, sure not scum. But, I'll try to explain my thought process behind it (as clear as I can).

At this point, partially because of the crazy vote swapping, I'm pretty convinced you're town. Also, for most of the game, I've been pretty convinced Arm is town. It'd be hard to get me to vote for either of you already - so this is just a formalization of that

We've got, I think, three people we all suspect: FS, FL, Koc. (And I do K7, but I digress). Regardless of the order or what, its safe to say we're going to be pushing heavily on those three and instead of being cross-working on lynches as a unit well, helps.

Also, there's the numbers game. With 13 of us left now, if we had all our suspects lynched (and still hadn't won) we'd be at 9 (three and one night kill). With the three of us still alive at that point, assuming not a total shift against us it would only take 2 others agreeing with us to move ahead.

Also, it really is a put the mafia on their toes kinda maneuver; we don't know each others alignments, so do you leave us alive to question each other (worrying about a voting block that can get them lynched easy) or do you kill us (which really gives the other town a chance to process how things are going).

Really, the only way I could see it totally backfiring is if 2 of the three of us were scum (which is very, very highly unlikely) - otherwise, even if one is they can't get "cred" for bussing a partner AND they can't really protect them. All in all, I'm for it. I see a lot of upside without a lot of downside.

[SpyreX]

I really don't like things that distance people from their votes.

Fair enough. Figured it was worth a shot - I still think it would have broke this wide open.

[SpyreX]

I believe it. We could just follow arm around with our votes and kind of force him into the thing. =P I don't know. Basically if you cut out all the who's in/who's out stuff, is it not the same thing as just listening to what each other thinks? I think one thing I would change is I don't want to line up our lynches like that. For instance, right now you're voting FS with me and I've pledged to vote 1 person with you. I think we should just stick with that until today is resolved, then discuss who comes next after night. Question, if you weren't making this deal with me, who would you be voting today?

One one level I really like the idea of following arm around turning him into a 3-voter.

But, yes, at heart its just the flipside of mafia - we're creating a "mason" group that, although not confirmed we're gonna sure play like they are.

If it wasn't for our deal & my vla... I'd probably have been pushing hard on FL again. Of course, FS coming in just twirling around all scummily makes it easy to stay where I am.

I can dig not "setting" them up but unless someone decides to really up the scum-level I will not shed a tear on FS, FL, KoC, or K7 at this point. If there's not one scum in there (much less 2) i'd be really, really surprised.

[SpyreX]

Ohh, there's no "holding" to it. Its more a formalization of the fact that, really, I think the two of you are town and together we can rip through this without near as much difficulty.

[SpyreX]

Fair enough.

As fun as this distraction has been, I've gotta catch up from my V/LA. I'll throw down cases on all 4 of my main suspects unless we get a power FS lynch by like tuesday or wednesday (I'll hold my breath)

[SpyreX]

Ok...

I know I promised a reread, but honestly, I haven't had it in me for this game. This one is slogging along and it needs a boot.

Look at the last few pages - we've spent more time and actual effort figuring out FaerieLords alignment than actually looking for scum. Or doing anything. Hell, at this point I miss the unwarranted finger-pointing and whatever else.

So, if I really really need to, I'll do something by ohh Fridayish on at least two of my suspects. But, in the meantime lets DO something constructive like just up and turbolynch someone. Anyone. At this point it could be me and I wouldn't care - some would be bad lynches but really I wouldn't even try and stop it.

We need to do something to knock ourselves out of the doldrums.

[SpyreX]

Also, I have a lot of other stuff going on that limits my available time to sit here and hit the refresh button, unlike some of you.

Recently married. More than full time job (salary sucks). Also just found out I'm going to be a father.

Mafiascum boards are kinda the last thing I'm thinking about when I come home from work.

Grats and grats.

However, even if you're not giving giant megaposts - you can give feelings on whats going on and at least throw in your two cents on the current issues at hand.

We all get busy, but really, we should all be able to at least marginally contribute.

[SpyreX]

STOP

Hammertime!

Unvote, Vote: KoC

[SpyreX]

I was tired of today, and I'm predicting scum-flip, but I just hate when things shift all suddenly like that. If this is a mislynch I'm going to be pissed for more than one reason, and I'm probably not going to trust anyone.

Honestly, today started dragging on and I had a chance to hammer, so I took it. KoC has been scummy and thats going to be the "best" consensus we were going to get. So, yea, there we go.

[SpyreX]

Well, that honestly isn't that surprising. However, lets take a look at the votes.

Vote: FS

FoS: Orange Penguin

Wanted to know who'd be a good scumpartner for FS? Hint, its you.

[SpyreX]

Knight of Cydonia - 7 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin, armlx, Firestarter, StrangerCoug, SpyreX)

Just so we're clear. I will not believe that KoC was an all-town lynch. We have one of the scum on that list (if not more).

Of those on there, the three I would be most suspicious of are:

FS
OP
K7

I highly doubt LF is scum - pushing that hard for it with other options would be an amazing scumploy that I just dont see happening.

Arm just has been a gut-town feel all game and continues to do so.

SC is kind of variable (I'll need a reread) but, again, I'm not seeing it.

Me, well.. I did just power hammer to move the game forward when we had consensus on what was a scummy player. With the speed I'll admit I more than half expected a townflip but, even then, we can pull information out of it and we've still got time.

So, any of the above would be great - I know I'm not going to get any backing on FL who I STILL think has a decent chance to be scum so there ya have it.

[SpyreX]

If you were Town, I would say your being very blaise about this whole voting thing, Spyrex.....

You had a vote on me for some time, and as soon as the hammer presents itself, you do not hesitate to drop it... Not even waiting for a claim..

I'm being very blase because this GAME has been being very blase. We've hit a rut and maybe jamming a spark into it by lynching KoC (even if the end result is I get lynched for it) is something for people to look at.

As for the claim? Really? What did you want me to wait for? Him to claim town like every other one of us since there are no power roles? This is fishing for another reason to vote me and, well, just makes me comfortable with my vote.

But there was a game I played with you recently, Ill find it and post a link, where the last thing you'd have done was drop the hammer like that....
Its against a town meta I have from you... Big time.

Again, meta is retarded. If you think I'm going to play the same game, well, silly silly. On top of that, however, the fact that you'd use the polygamist game (with a max of 2 days) for me to not drop the hammer quickly... well, its a different beast... AND of course there is the fact I DID drop the hammer day 1. So, I'm not sure what you're shooting for there.

What makes you say that?

Yesterday as the push was coming on FS OP started with the "if its him, then who would the partners be" as a deflection from the lynch which (really) worked for the day. It was enough that made me think there was a connection between the two of them and with KoC coming up town it increases my belief in it being a scum connection.

I will look into Manito more - I still, like I've had most game, a busy town read but I could be wrong.

[SpyreX]

I love a double-OMGUS right off the bat.

However, there is one thing in the whole mess I will give some credence too (before I discuss the others):

He is one of the few original non-replaced players and has since posted enough to "help out" but not enough to be considered active, like armlx or LF have been.

This is true. I have not given this game my full attention or even a fraction of it. Ever since the apathy lynch 1.5 I've lost some level of interest. However, maybe getting some votes on me, maybe it being a new day, who knows... I feel a spark of life in me again for this. Expect some analysis / megaposts in the near future.

Now, to the crux of things:

orangepenguin

Wait - so I'm FS's partner because I was voting for KOC before it became popular (unless 3 votes is "popular") and then decided to get all analytical and ask people some question and therefore caused everyone to jump on Koc, Ignore FS, and lynch him. I guess I made you hammer too. I was hardly a deflection, if anything. I think most people ignore my posts, since they offer little to no content most of the time. If people are being "deflected" that's scummyness on their part, not mine, for just tunnel-vision onto one person.

Always a good start when you add in information that is erroneous to the topic at hand. YOUR vote has nothing to do with anything.

At the point you made this post:

I have a question:

IF FS is scum, who is there partner? Same for KoC? Because if people are voting for somebody who could be a likely partner, they could probably switch to the wagon, and lynch the scum with the most votes. I personally don't think it's LIKELY that BOTH FS and KOC is scum though, not saying they aren't partners, but with 13 alive.

FS had more votes than KoC did. This post only serves as a way to try and add another level of "suspicion" before a lynch. In addition, the post right above it was the mod setting an unretractable deadline - which makes the timing suspect.

This is aside from the fact that, personally, I'm not sure what you were aiming for with that whole exchange - so it really looks like classic deflection.

But... without further ado:

Firestarter

Yes, the call for a claim is misguided considering theres only town & scum.

Misguided? No. Its was used as an obvious way to try to make what I did appear scummy to give credence to your OMGUS. Waiting for a claim, in this game, means jack - if anything it just gives the game as a whole a chance to putter out again and stagnate on another bad lynch.

But when KoC had the 2nd from lynch vote, it was mentioned in the post as..
(b)lynch minus one(/b) if Im not mistaken.

On my limited time on MS that usually signifies that the lynchee should speak out, and make a last plea for survival...
In a game with LF, I was one from lynch, and was left room for a plea...
I succesfully negotiated that hurdle, and caught scum, and was town.

Yep. I knew what I was doing. I said it was the hammer. No "oops, I didn't count guys" business.

I hammered willfully and purposefully

.

Now, you mention that I said I wasn't surprised. I wasn't. It was obvious that wagon came on too fast from too many directions with no new reasons for the lynch for me to think it was a sure-fire scumhit. However, was KoC scummy? Sure was. Would KoC being alive have helped? Only as a body, but more as a perfect distraction for the scum on later days - we still have some eggs we can break for this omlete and I have no problem nailing scummy players.

In fact, pulling that wagon away (which I thought of) ultimatley had more negatives than positives:

- There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong.
- Pulling the wagon wouldn't alleviate his scummy play and would have made him a distraction on later days (see how K7 / FL are lynch candidates each day)
- It would NOT have given the analysis on that wagon that I am

very

sure has scum on it.

So, yep, I did it. I saw no need for a "last plea" - really, those are for role-based games to make sure you dont powerlynch a scummy cop or the like. In the game with just vanilla , yea, those player will and should be hung.

Im not basing any meta on JUST you laying a hammer down...
In the other game, you were much more methodical in your approach to votes/lynches, in this game, you are the oppposite, regardless of the type of game it is.

As for meta, it wasn't something I was prepared to look at early on in my time on MS, but everyone seems to be using it...
I may have been a bit naive when I said I wasn't one for meta, but Ive played a game with you, and I can see benefits of it.

The first benefit has to do with you Spyrex, and your very noticeable difference in playstyle in this game to the other.

This is a perfect example of why meta is weak and retarded.

1.) If you think I'm going to play each game the same way, well, godspeed. Honestly, I may not be the best but I am sure smart enough to change my play enough so that meta isn't going to be used to discern ANYTHING about my alignment or role well.

2.) This game and the other have nothing in common at this point. The polygamist game was a 2-day max game which means mistakes had huge ramifications - I've got no problems breaking eggs as it were while there are eggs to break. Believe me that as we approach lylo I will become more cautious about hammers - at this point, honestly its about keeping the game moving, eliminating scummy players (and hopefully hitting scum), and getting information from even a wrong lynch.

3.) An argument based on meta is inherently a baseless argument - it could be used to amplify a case but your case currently is: hammer + meta. Thats not good mafia, its a cop out.

And now you've gone and hopped on the 2nd most popular wagon pre-lynch...

The wagon I was on before? The person who ever since the armlx debacle I've said has been high on my list of scummy players? Yep. Dont paint yourself as a martyr - I hammered KoC hoping for the best and expecting the worse; regardless, my vote was going right back where it was because you've done nothing to make me think you weren't scummy.

Not only that, but you've been very clever with your appearances into the thread, I would say you've done enough to go unnoticed however...
Again, this is in direct contradiction to the last game I played with you, you posted alot more frequently, and alot more constructively....

Yep, I hope it doesn't go unnoticed - I've said more than once I've lost my "spark" for this game because it has been going slowly and there's been more white-noise than actual discussion. The other (again, a different bird) was much easier because of the pressure of a 2-day game to keep people and discussion moving. Nice more meta though.

BTW, the hammer you speak of in that game, Polygamist mafia, that you dropped, you told all and sundry that you would be doing that if the hammer was there, about 24 hours prior to doing so...
What you did here, again, is completely different to what your stating...
It simply was NOT the same thing.

I'm not sure what your aiming at here, but I'll play your game.

You said:

But there was a game I played with you recently, Ill find it and post a link, where the last thing you'd have done was drop the hammer like that....
Its against a town meta I have from you... Big time.

In the game in question, I did drop the hammer. There was notice, but I still dropped the hammer. That was, again, one day away from lylo so some discussion was warranted but ultimately I dropped it and didn't feel bad then and dont now that it was a townie.

But, this is worth quoting again for all the meta lovers in the house:

It simply was NOT the same thing.

It isn't the same thing. It wasn't the same thing and really they dont have a real connection. The only reason(s) you got a reply about it at all is because 1.) I compulsively reply to cases against me and 2.) YOU were trying to put a connection (inverse relationship is a connection) between how I operate at hammer in a scenario where they have no bearing on each other.

So, my tl;dr version:

*.) I'll try to give this game more of my attention now that its moving a bit faster.
1.) OP and FS have a link due to the timing and the nature of the deflection the post after a deadline lynch was stated.
2.) My hammer, even though I wasn't surprised KoC was town, isn't scummy by nature of it being a quick hammer:
--- There's no reason to wait for a claim in a vanillaless game
--- I saw far more benefit in the lynch for the game then trying to stop it
3.) Meta still is a retarded way to build a case.
4.) OMGUS is fun to say and even more fun to watch.

[SpyreX]

Votecount Analysis:

Current Players:

theopor_COD -> armlx
Joubert
Syrial -> killa seven
Lquiz -> FaerieLord
SpyreX
Gimbo -> LlamaFluff
Firestarter
CF Riot
ShadowGirl -> TheSweatpantsNinja
dcorbe -> BlckKnght -> orangepenguin
Manito
Bogre -> StrangerCoug

Day 1.0 - Forbiddanlight (town)

forbiddanlight - 9 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia, Joubert, CF Riot, Gimbo)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)
Gimbo - 1 (dcorbe)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)
CF Riot - 1 (forbiddanlight)

Not Voting - FaerieLord, LaptopGun, Firestarter

Day 1.5 - Corinthan (town)

- DEADLINE Lynch

Corinthian - 6 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja, StrangerCoug, orangepenguin, FaerieLord)
killa seven - 5 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, Joubert, armlx)
Manito - 1 (killa seven)
Firestarter - 1 (CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

Day 2.0 - Knight of Cydonia (town)

Knight of Cydonia - 7 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin, armlx, Firestarter, StrangerCoug, SpyreX)
Firestarter - 2 (CF Riot, Knight of Cydonia)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
StrangerCoug - 1 (TheSweatpantsNinja)
killa seven - 1 (Joubert)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)

So, from 3 lynches so far, lets look at some of the following:

Always on the lynch target:

LlamaFluff (Gimbo)

Never on the lynch target:

No one!

Hammerers:

LlamaFluff (as Gimbo)
FaerieLord (tie-breaker)
SpyreX (power-hammer MD)

Wagon-Starters (might need a re-read to make sure its not affected by unvotes):

Killa Seven
LlamaFluff
LlamaFluff

Who the dead wanted dead that are still alive:

CF Riot (Forbiddan)
Killa Seven (Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia)
Firestarter (Knight of Cydonia)

_______________________________________________________

Just data - I'll need a reread to figure out what all to make of it. I figured if I put it up all nice and simple maybe some others would ALSO look for patterns.

[SpyreX]

I was right. I don't feel like I trust anyone.

But, the times we've shared, the dreams, the hopes.

I thought we were stronger than this!!

[SpyreX]

I didn't exactly like his power hammer. I did warn that it was lynch minus one, and I had my suspicions on Knight of Cydonia. Where, however, are SpyreX's suspicions of Knight of Cydonia?

After KoC's amazing scummove there I may be willing to shift FL back tomorrow for KoC - I dont think FS is going to be negotiable.

Other players I'd be more than happy to give the rope to:
1.) FL - for reasons stated over and over again (and notice the absence of real talking so far today).
2.) KoC - he's been diggin' a hole and I could really see the lynch.
3.) K7 - K7, enough said. I think the time will come soon enough when he's going to have to go.

I can dig not "setting" them up but unless someone decides to really up the scum-level I will not shed a tear on FS, FL, KoC, or K7 at this point. If there's not one scum in there (much less 2) i'd be really, really surprised.

Yep, never mentioned it at all.

So, with days left before the deadline, you went ahead and hammered someone you would not have been surprised to flip town...

Why would you do that seeing as the first 3 hits were town, and now find ourselves meandering closer to a scum win???

Really? Again?

You're better than this - you are doing this willfully to try and build a bad case on me.

In fact, pulling that wagon away (which I thought of) ultimatley had more negatives than positives:

- There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong.
- Pulling the wagon wouldn't alleviate his scummy play and would have made him a distraction on later days (see how K7 / FL are lynch candidates each day)
- It would NOT have given the analysis on that wagon that I am very sure has scum on it.

Also, this isn't the first time this game I've said I wouldn't be surprised. (I said it BEFORE the lynch about K7 and Corin's faillynch);) Because, get this, I wasn't then, I wasn't with KoC.

Now, if you got lynched and come up town I WOULD be surprised. Or, if armlx or CFR came up scum. Those would be honestly surprising developments to me. KoC being town? Not so much.

As for the latter - with 12 of us left, double days and 3 scum we have 4 more lynches before its lylo. So, dramatizing this whole business doesn't do anyone any good. Hell, get 6 votes on K7 today and I'll hammer him in a heartbeat - losing players that have that much suspicion on them at this juncture only hurts because its a body, NOT because it has a negative impact on the towns ability to find scum.

Although, my discussion with the cases against me aside:

- Manito: you've managed to get time to long post, but haven't commented on recent events at all. Yes, FL is scummy and I agree with that but there is other people to look at.
- StrangerCoug: Did you really just, in response to TSPN, FOSOMGUS and use the justification for that as "Well, someone ELSE did the scummy thing I did too?" In addition, did you say you were looking at Firestarter and K7 today (after my hammer) then move your vote to me for the selfsame reason (also using my not having suspicion of KoC (which I did) for part of it)?
- TSPN: I honestly forgot you were in this game. Post more.

[SpyreX]

Did I ever say that anybody other than Firestarter and killa seven were definitely town?

No, of course not. Its just the fact that nothing had changed (in regards to me and the hammer) between when you made the statement about FS and K7 and when you voted for me (the vote leader I think?) on what appears to be a shaky bandwagon vote (my not having suspicion of KoC). It seems opportunistic.

I'm attacking TheSweatpantsNinja's vote reason as being weak. Seriously, do you vote people just because you want the town's attention on them? Sorry, not working. Present a decent case first.

Granted, I probably could have done a better job of justifying my vote on Knight of Cydonia than I did, but once again, it's there.

I agree that TSPN's case is weak. However, part of your defense was what -I- did in regards to the hammer. That was what got me: you're voting me for what TSPN is voting you for and don't apparently see the parallel.

[SpyreX]

I had said I found KoC scummy.

I had said I wanted a lynch - in fact I used the word turbolynch. I felt it was past time for it.

Someone I found scummy came up for lynch. I hammered him.

So no, when I hammered I didn't give any extra special reasoning, but it was there most of that day.

[SpyreX]

In retrospect, your hammer is exactly what scum would do, progress and see through the double day, take town down, Nightkill, Voila!!

I'm not going to get into the whole WIFOM with you, but

really

? Scum would do what I did - ? - not get lynched - kill another town - nightkill - somehow survive and continue on to win (since we are NOT near lylo yet)

Im not buying this "turbolynch" if Im honest, the hallmarks of scum are written all over it, and even more so after 2 of your posts, post-lynch, said you weren't surprised that KoC was town..

Your not buying what about it? That I said thats what I wanted? That I hammered when the opportunity presented itself? Well, thats fine, you dont have to buy anything - its there in the posts.

The reasoning your offering why you would hammer someone you obviously thought of as more town than scum at the time you hammered doesn't stand up with me.

This is one of my favorite scum building weak-case scumtells. Where, anytime, in any of my posts did I obviously say KoC was more town than scum? Go ahead, look - see if you can find anywhere I said KoC was town before the hammer. Subscribing "scummy motives" to my clear-cut actions is always a fun one - mostly because its soo scummy and it just begs for a defense against things that didn't happen. Nice try, though.

Now, if you're basing that off my "surprised" comment - no, as I've said I wasn't surprised he was town considering how the lynch went down. I've said I think there are scum(s) on that wagon. However, the flipside is that there obviously (duh) are town on that wagon: why would I leave a suspicious player around (who I said more than once I found scummy) to be a continual issue?

My vote is on you right now but lets say the EXACT same scenario went down with another scummer like K7. I would put that hammer down just as fast and it would be just as ridiculous that its some fantastic "scum-tell" the next day.

On an aside:

I haven't assumed anything, because your posts are devoid of anything to make assumptions from...

Another awesome statement: by nature you are assuming he hasn't looked at anyone else because his main cases haven't changed.

Hell, most of your case on me is assumptions flavored with delicious OMGUS and you're doing it again.

This is scummy. You're scum.

[SpyreX]

I notice a recurring group of 4 among everybody.

SC, K7, FL, FS.

Does anyone not have at least 1 of those on their scum list?

Ohh hay that list looks familiar. I'm 3.5/4 woot woot.

Yes, there's a couple problems at this point with how much "agreement" we have.

*) If all us of agree, that means either:
--- Scum are more than happy to bus their buddies.
------- If I was scum and not them hell yes I would (it would be more obvious at this juncture if someone DIDNT find them scummy).
--- They are all town.
------- If they are all town, we lose. Thats all the lynches left.

However, on some level its lip service:
K7, FL and FS have been lynch candidates for a long time now and, miraculously they have not been able to get lynched yet (waa waa I hammered yea I know). This implies that although players are

saying

they want them lynched they don't. Which, to me, implies that at least one of them are scum.

Also, and this is a duh, none of these players are going to be NK's. There's absolutely no reason in this setup for any of those to be NK's which means we have to deal with them one way or the other during the days.

Now, personally as should be obvious from my vote: I'm not going to second guess myself out of this at this juncture (maybe at lylo if at that point we've been wrong) - they've been scummy, they are scummy or they are K7. Regardless, they need to go (assuming, of course, no major changes in how the game flows which I doubt will see in a mountainous game).

[SpyreX]

@ Spyrex..

Given your last post, why are you not voting K7 then?

He is as useful as an underwater hairdryer right now, and given how you reasoned the lynch of KoC, I cant see why your vote is anywhere but on K7...

Sometimes I wonder if you're for real.

EVERYONE ELSE LOOK AT THIS.

Why am I not voting K7? Because, although I want him dead for his play - I've been more certain of your scumminess since forever. There's a

decent

chance he's lurker scum, however,

due to your play

and your waspish and unfounded OMGUS attacks on my vote on you you have been a much better candidate.

You've tried to shift votes off you by OMGUS'ing me.
You're now trying to get me to shift to K7 on the grounds of worthlessness (hint, not scumminess).
You were more than happy to be a power-jump on the KoC wagon to save yourself (by lynching CFR's "buddy" on weak, weak grounds).

This is scummy. This is scum play.

Please lynch him kthx.

[SpyreX]

A few replies to FS before I make a different post touching on real events that matter.

A Power Jump on KoC's wagon...
You have gotta be kidding me with that statement..
Coming from the Power-Hammerer yourself.

Yep.

My actions with the hammer do not change/alter/affect your move to KoC as an attempt to save yourself. These are different actions and should be treated as such.

I feel your getting a bit desperate now Spyrex with that last post.

You've caught me.

Everyone look at Firestarter, see how Omgusy he is, etc, etc....

I like the Etc, etc. Your voting pattern has been pretty awesome, awesome enough to warrant my mention. But hey, who am I.

Is it simply, that I may be onto something?

What is this that you're onto? My hammer being some amazing scumploy? Give me your case. A real case. I'd love it.

I know youv'e posted in one post that your "enthusiasm" for this game has perked since, surprisingly enough, your first vote!!
No need to make mention of this however, its duly noted.

I like how you make mention of it then say no need to make mention.

Aw, hope I didn't hurt that proud ego Spyrex...

This is no different to what others have tried to get me lynched for, why do you NOW feel it so necessary to shout it out at the top of your lungs, when you didn't exhibit the same while I voted others, apparently for the same reason?

What ego, hell, what are you talking about here at all?

"Why NOW are you bringing up again the scummy things I've been doing that others have found scummy and why I've been a candidate over and over - AHA SCUM FOUND"

Spyrex has been getting very emotional since his first vote was placed on his shoulders, and has increasingly got involved in the game since...

The vote doesn't hurt. Hell vote me up all you want, I really dont care. Watching the torrent of "bad" come out from you, SC and OP (although at least OP admitted to it) has been the focus of it.

If you really think I'm playing different because I'm worried in the slightest that I'm going to get lynched for this... Funny thing is, I'm ok with the lynch if it ends up being me

as long as

1.) I get a chance to give some more feelings I've got towards this game beforehand and 2.) Without question, the town hangs you tomorrow. A 1-1 for me is fine.

Not to mention his instant eturn to the 2nd favoured votee, me, right after KoC's lynching.

Lemme try this again in reality:

Not to mention his instant eturn to the person he was

voting for yesterday,

me, right after KoC's lynching.

Ive also given way to my thinking on Meta simply because I didn't have enough gametime in MS to understand that it has benefits. I see a clear difference in the approach Spyrex has made to this game than the last I played with him.

Now, in the parallel world where you are actually town and not scum - read this and remember it when I flip or the game is over. Let this be a perfect example of why meta is retarded and lazy.

K7, IMO, its ridiculous he's gotten so far in this game....
He has done barely enough to be described as a player here.
Lurking scum is afoot... big time.

So, your other suspect is K7 for lurking but I'm scum yet you asked me why I'm not voting for K7? Is this setting up another "scum-partners" like you did yesterday so you can "justify" jumping to KoC because he was CFR's scum partner.

[SpyreX]

Now that I've got that out of my system.

LF, I'm not advocating a clean sweep. I was actually going to jump on anyone who said that without a good reason (for example, SpyreX if he hadn't made the "look at how all the wagons on them keep failing" note). But I was making the point that a larger then average proportion of scum probably is in that group. I'd bet 2-3 of the 4 are scum.

Yes. There is more likely than not scums in that mix. The question is finding out who and why. I dont think anyone would want powerlynches on them all (except me, but). It is suspicious that the lynches have failed over and over and thats one thing I'm going to get into later this post.

In your opinion, what is the difference in scumminess between spyrex's hammer and you putting KoC at L-1?

TS, if I could I'd reach out and give you a cookie. Even though he was L-2 that doesn't change the fact that every vote on a wagon, ultimately, shares the same amount of responsibility for the lynch. We need to look at every player on a lynch and WHY they were on it and go from there.

Which is what I'm going to do now(This is going to be long):

The KoC lynch:

1.) LlamaFluff (1137):

Internet ate my first post, this will be a more condensed version.

KoC seems the best path to be taking today, and his opening vote on K7 just strengthens that. I reread a lot of what happened yesterday and I think K7 probally is town that as LTG said "is being railroaded". Part of that thought comes from the lack of any defense people are giving him, even people like armlx who seemed have him leaning town voted him. Another is the way he didnt go with a shameless wagon of Corin, which that close to a deadline I would of expected to see. You can throw meta in there but I dont think its really needed.

The Corin wagon on the otherhand was fairly difficult to push, and when it was competing with the K7 wagon things were interesting. armlx is right in his recent post that put FoS on the people who abandoned K7 for Corin (SC and OP). The Corin wagon had much more resistance and hesitancy. The number overlap gives me pause too, out of the five people who put an FoS on Corin and K7 yesterday, four of them (SC, OP, TSN, FS) went with the Corin wagon. Out of those three players, two have posted (SC and FS) of which SC has returned to the K7 wagon and FS is discussing WIFOM.

The spread of the duel FoS people just feels like Corin was lynched when he could, and K7 is left for later.

In answer to CRFs question, my new third pick would be SC. He went back and forth between the K7 and Corin wagon quite a bit yesterday, and now that we had Corin flip town, has jumped right back into the K7 wagon. I still think KoC and manito should be our 1-2 lynch for the day. The cases that CFR and I have made on KoC still stand strong in my eyes, and manito has really done nothing to alleviate my early suspicions of him. He seemed to just stay out of the entire Corin-K7 wagon battle while calling them both town, but doing very little to make other cases appear better or either of the two main wagons appear poor.

In the end though KoC appears to be the better inital wagon so vote KoC

LLama talks a lot about the wagons of the day before. Considering how today is shaping up I went ahead and italicized where he called exactly this.

Overall, this is a vote on a case and doesn't ring any sirens.

Conclusion: Town.

2.) StrangerCoug (1241, 1368, 1553)
Vote Post 1:

Knight of Cydonia wrote:
Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Knight of Cydonia wrote:
Quote:

Which is why I don't worry as much about what he's saying. His vote is warranted, but I figured I'd point out the part where he's stating that he'd be happy to see me go even as town. That's NOT good, at all. But either way, I can't make much of it since my play has been horrid this game, so I just point it out so that it might be examined later.

I'm really glad you responded like this, forbiddan. Before, I had a 1% suspicion you might have been town. Now, it's somewhere around 0.00001%.
You've rather cleverly misinterpreted my post there. I said that I was pretty damn sure that you were scum, but that if you were town, you're doing us no help. I at no point said *bolded part*, I just stated that it makes no sense for a town player to do this, since it only helps the Mafia, and that if you were town, it wouldn't be a loss. I never said I was lynching you without caring if you were town or scum, which is what you've tried to imply.

I hate these two posts, especially in combination. I don't like how the wording of the first one comes off. Looking at them, yes, it does appear that forbiddanlight attempted to strawman Knight of Cydonia, but his defense doesn't match up well with the vibes I get from the first post.

Knight of Cydonia wrote:
Yeah, look, fl, we all know you're scum, or the most retarded townie ever, so stop trying to throw crap out there to try and get a townie lynch day 1.5.

This is confirmation bias.

Knight of Cydonia wrote:
Also, just one for the rest of the town to consider - look who leapt to FL's defence as soon as heat came down: Llama and CF Riot. That makes three. Could be perfectly innocent, but if FL flips scum, as I'm sure he would, we might be onto something.

More confirmation bias with guilt by association added to the mix.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

I'm not getting anything scummy from Manito's posts in isolation, but LlamaFluff's case on him here still makes sense to me.

Now, this vote on KoC seems ok. Definitely not a strong case, but at least it is something.

Well, darn it, vote: Knight of Cydonia until he convinces me to move it! There! You happy!?

TheSweatpantsNinja wrote:
I'm confused as to the lack of an SC wagon.

I'm confused as to why you waited to contribute until after the mod started looking for someone to replace you, and even then, you're not adding anything new. Minor FoS: TheSweatpantsNinja.

Blah. Voting for pressure. Not much to say here. The FoS on TSPN is cute in rereading.

Now, the other SC vote:

Pfft. I asked for an updated PbPA on killa seven from Knight of Cydonia. I don't remember seeing it. Deadline's looming, and I don't see a Firestarter lynch in this half of the day.
Unvote: Firestarter
Vote: Knight of Cydonia

THIS IS LYNCH MINUS ONE.

Now, this one. Woo.
Switching your vote because he hasn't done a PbPA on K7? Blah, but maybe.
The other bit.

At this point, KoC had one whole more vote than Firestarter...which was made by Firestarter. The next post (30 minutes later) was this vote shifting it to L-1. Keep in mind one of the votes that tied it up was Arm who made it more than clear he would vote FS.

Wanna know why lynches keep stalling? Hello!

Verdict: Scummy. When FS comes up scum, mos' def scum.

3.) Killa Seven (1306)

vote KOC

For the record I want to make K7 a policy lynch so this shit doesn't happen more. I hope you're happy Arm in taking that side of our argument way back when.

Verdict: ? but I sure wouldn't shed a tear if he was dead either way.

4.) Orangepenguin (1406)
There was a quote pyramid leading up to this being him voting due to pressure from LF.

Fine. Vote: Knight of Cydonia.

Tomorrow, when it's not midnight, and I am more awake, I'll provide reasons.

Did we ever get the reasons from OP?

Verdict: Scummy unless I find / see the reasons.

5.) Armlx (1550)

Vote KoC

Lets get this game moving somewhere.

Truth. The game had been stagnating and this vote marked the shift. I, personally, dont see anything wrong with this.

Consensus: Armlx be town yo'

6.):roll: erstarter (1552)

Yup.... KoC likes his flavour of the day alright.... switching to "lynchables" when he can...

Im not gonna get a CFR lynch today, but Im happy to help lynch his buddy.

UNVOTE..
VOTE: Knight of Cydonia.

@ Manito...
1-10, how scummy do you think Koc has been, given your last statement....
And..
Are you saying that armlx has been just as scummy as Koc?
If so.. whats your case?

Note: This was the vote that took FS out of the lead.
KoC is scummy for voting for lynchables? Really?
Also, not really saying KoC is scummy but that he's got the potential to be CFR's scumbuddy... huh.

Verdict: The correct lynch (TM pending)

7.) SpyreX, Slayer of Tiamat, Duke of Awesome.

STOP

Hammertime!

Unvote, Vote: KoC

How could such a scummy hammer be let live? OHH MY GOD YOU GUYS SRSLY.

Ohh wait, thats me. KoC was scummy and I still dont feel bad.

Verdict: Townin' it up ins.

So, final analysis:

SC's multi-jumps on and off the wagon are suspect. His final reasons for voting are suspect and build a connection to FS.
Did OP ever explain his vote satisfactory? I also have seen OP connections to FS and SC.
FS is scum. When he flips both the above (who are already suspect) become even more so.
K7 is worthless and I wish he was dead long ago when I first brought it up - but the above are better lynches.

[SpyreX]

Also, you hammering a mislynch of a scummy player isn't the scummy part. It's just the fact that you think such an obvious scummy move would mean you couldn't possibly town, and now you're trying to act like you're confirmed. Which I don't really buy. Obviously, the only person other than myself that think it's possible you're scum is one of the most scummiest players in the game, so I am not going to even explore that wagon anymore, especially since it looks like my whole reasoning was OMGUS, when it wasn't.

Of course I'm not confirmed. I dont expect to be treated as such - that would be retarded in a mountainous game.

However, if the base of the suspicion is a hammer and then a vote (and the suspicion comes from who I've voted for) then I'm gonna bash those arguments.

Dont drop the wagon if you really feel that way. If you think I'm legitimately scummy say why and vote for me.

(Just to be clear, I don't think armlx is scum, BUT, if Spyrex was scum, I could very well see arm as his partner. My vote on k7 still stands though)

I "buddy" with Arm and CFR because at this point they are the most town to me. If that changes, I'll jump on them but, really, I dont see it from either at any point this game.

Why K7? He is worthless, but why him specifically?

You yourself said FS is one of the scummiest players and is active, so why K7 over.

Actually, what I'm getting at is give some cases on the players you think are scummy.

[SpyreX]

Only really one way to find out, but seriously.

FS needs to go and be the domino that falls and wins us the game.

I also wouldn't cry if it was SC first, but FS.

[SpyreX]

I'm getting mixed feelings about Arm and Spyre, because they were both on FS then bailed (Arm did this twice) and now they're back trying to lynch him again. They both recognize you could be scum, but are trying really hard to put you at the end of the line up. TSN seems less like he's directing suspicion around, and he's voting you. Those are a few.

Two parts to this:

1.) Me abandoning the FS lynch - I'll just repost what arm said since it covers it so well:
Both times people kept being bitches and not wanting to lynch FS, and the game stagnated until someone changed their mind.

2.) SC being low on the radar:

I also wouldn't cry if it was SC first, but FS.

So, yea, there you have it. SC isn't low on the radar but, if I'm right about the connections FS would reinforce it and, really, blow the game open. Like I said, if it ends up being SC (and he's scum) its just going to be FS tomorrow but I'd still rather do it the other way.

@Firestarter:
So, lets see who you've said are scum now.
1.) Arm
2.) SpyreX
3.) CFR
4.) KoC (he was CFR's scumbuddy)
5.) LF
6.) K7

OF THOSE, how many have perused you?
1.) Arm
2.) SpyreX
3.) CFR
4.) KoC

Bonus points - OF the 4 above, when did FS start bringing up cases for them being scum... before or after they showed suspicion on him?

K7 and Llama have been new(ish) from you so we'll see how they pan out.

Get the OMGUS feelin'? I do.

The fact remains, at this moment, that Spyrex is in no danger of being lynched, and he knows this.
Is it purely coincidence that before the hammer of KoC, that Spyrex only made fleeting appearances in the thread, gained a vote for his scum-tastic hammer, and is now probably the biggest poster in the game since the 2nd half day dawned???

I'm not in any danger of being lynched because your case is bullshit and, really, no one is going to buy it. HOWEVER, in the event that the moon shifts or whatever and I end up being lynched I want the town to make sure to gut your ass when I come up town - like I said, 1-1 in a mountainous game is fine for me.

And to answer a question from Spyrex...
Yes, I think Im on to something... YOU.

Also, I really like the analysis of people on you... when you weren't lynched. Here's a hit: I've said the wagons on you keep dying. I've never even thought for a second that scumbuddies might not sit on you - because

you have not been

lynched.

So, trying to use votecounts to confirm yourself when, in fact, you're not dead so they are really not useful tools is A+ awesome.

[SpyreX]

Newsflash...
Most of you guys get to post before me, as where Im at, timezones DO play a part when I post. Im basing this on most of the players Ive played with are usually American..

Currently, its 2:14am where I am, and during the day I work, so its after work I get to post after dealing with RL..

Its not an excuse, its a fact..
And my attacks would seem unfortunate for me, timing wise...

But make of that what you will..

Ohh you're not getting any grief from me about posting. I understand RL and its not like I'm going "OMG he's not here, jump, jump!"

So, unless you're saying your cases are weak because you're tried (which, I'd say just sleep on it and take longer to do it) I dont see what this has to do with anything.

I'll get to work on building a full case on you tonight - since, yes, you're right I haven't since after I voted for you you decided to just fling out as many OMGUS's and weak you could which got my ire up (and still does).

For you: give a case on me. Extra credit if it doesn't use the word "hammer".

[SpyreX]

A trip down memory lane: The journey of Firestarter into the realm of OMGUS with detours at being scummy.

(Most of these will be by post number)

So, we start out with a few jokes, then Firestarter sees the light in post.. 5.

However, CF7 has heightened my suspicion somewhat with his nonsense pressure fos.

Not worthy of a vote at this junction, but certianly a FoS: CF7

Now, just an FoS, but it is in response to CFR's FoS. Note: Who is one of the people FS still thinks is scum?

Then, we walk ahead to post 7.

So now your saying you weren't being intentional?????

That would mean you were quitting the game, which is it???

Having read through the posts again at how this developed, I feel you were going to quit the game, and your self pity was obvious after you started to name yourself as the scummiest player. I think that when some questions were asked of you, you panicked, and bizzarely made yourself a good target for town at that point.
This was too rushed as far as plans go, and if you were indeed scumhunting, I'd imagine you would have held off until your "Plan" had more substance to it. You cannot be certain that Killa is scum, just because he wanted you out, he was calling your bluff, and Ive no reason to see it any differently atm
At this junction, you grasped the nearest thing to you, by stating it was a plan.. I dont buy this...
You have lied, stated that you would lie as town or scum, and lied some more.. This is NOT good for Town. Full Stop.

The more this conversation goes on, the more weaker your position is,

I, at this point see Killa as town

, only just, as what he did can be taken as scum hunting, thats the way I see it at the moment...

Im liking your wagon more & more and my vote is being placed here...

VOTE: Forbiddenlight

So, FL is a lynch because her plan was flawed. Fine.
FL is a lynch because she would lie to town. Also Fine.
(this, of course, comes into play later).

K7 is town (although only just).

Then, we have us a busy Wednesday:

Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: 10

Im very comfortable where my vote lays right now.

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: 11

Which was her being scum trying to frame an over aggressive townie....
It is not lying, nor twisting words, as FL has so eloquently put it, it is however a possibilty that was 50:50 at the time of my posting it, was it not???
That ratio, to me, is fairly lopsided at her being scum now, after what has been posted by her since then....

If you want to argue the point that this is not a possibilty, and strengthened tenfold since it was initially suggested by FL1's posting style, then I would suggest again that you should stop being naive.

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: 15

Yeah, Ive given off scuminess by twisting your words..... ok...

See my last few posts if you need clarification as to what I actually was doing......
Giving alternatives.
The fact you have reacted so badly, imo, is the reason I think of you as scum.

BTW, lets not get personal here, Im pretty sure your no idiot, and I can assure you that I aint an idiot either....

Now, am I gonna get a concise post from you or not?
Its the 2nd time you have evaded my request...

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:23 pm Post subject: 16

FL, please read my earlier post quoted above, and tell me what you make of it.

Now use this in relation to what has happened since then.

I am no more twisting your words than you would have yourself believe, and your continued shabby posting in reply does not help you.

However, your activity is fairly high, and the absence of most of the other players in this game has been noted.

If you are not scum, and its by no means clear cut at this moment based on your posts alone, then scum are watching this exchange rubbing their hands in anticipation of a mislynch.

This is another alternative town must consider here.

At this moment however, Im downgrading my vote, UNVOTE, to a FoS= FL

I would like to hear the rest of the players views here.

So, in less than a day it went from FL being obvscum to FL probably being town.
Funny thing is, a vote ne'er again would be placed day one - since, it was obvious to everyone that FL was getting lynched and FS was one of the people who made it happen... he just happened to distance himself from it to keep his hands clean. He also, later (post 18) throws out this gem:

Killa has hardly been around since voting FL, and other players seem content in sitting back, casting a vote with a token post, and let it go from there.

Again keeping suspicion on K7 AND throwing sand at most of the rest of the game.

So, Forbidden gets lynched. Are you ready for a sense of dejavu? I sure am.

Lets look at the first part of day 1.5. Can you guess where this is going? I sure can.

Killa, you come out of the woodwork just before FL is hammered, coincidence??? I dont know, but you were also called out by me in a previous post to that, me thinks lurking/reading was going on without as much as a comment on developments.
FoS: K7

Gimbo, your posts really reek of scum...
First you seem to give the reasoning that you were gonna hammer "because you never did it before" and then afterwards you say "shit".....
Thats Bollocks, and is scumbag play on so many levels. I mean, to come into thread after contributing hardly anything in a while, you lay a hammer down without as much as reason.....
You didn't add any reasoning after I asked for people not to hammer without having a reread, I'd have expected Scum to do what you did, and its exactly what I think you are, after your recent 2 posts.

VOTE: GIMBO

Well, I'll give him an A+ for consistancy. FoS on K7 for more activity before the hammer and a vote on Gimbo.. for the hammer. I've seen echoes of this fine scumhunting somewhere...maybe it'll come to me.

As for claiming its not your fault becuse FL is dead...
If you were town, you would not have placed that hammer when you did, there was no rush, no deadline, no limit to think.
Im not having "its not my fault"... I believe you to be scum, end of...

GOD THIS LOOKS SO FAMILIAR I'LL GET THERE.

Personally, I feel that gimbo should have been modkilled.

My vote is staying right where it is.

Sorry LF, but there was just too much of a big deal in replacing Gimbo after his mouthing off out of thread.

I firmly believe you/Gimbo to be scum.

If he was town, which I did not believe to be the case anyway, there wouldn't have been the rush to remove him from thread, more a warning, as the mafia would have already known who town are.

But if he was scum, he's compromised their position big time.
Gimbo's "apology" reeks of, "I knew you were town, but I seen my chance to get rid of you"
Along with his no reasoning before the hammer, and his token "Shit" post afterwards.

The removing of him confirms to me that he/you was/is scum.

CONFIRM VOTE: GIMBO/LlamaFluff

Asking for a modkill? Bad. Scummy.
Asking for a modkill on shaky, shaky grounds? Wooah nelly those scumhorses are gettin away from you.
Finding about the weakest reason to push a vote on the replacement? A nice cherry on a very scummy sundae.

As an awesome aside. I mentioned this way back when. I said this was bad news and this is a reply:

SpyreX wrote:
Its not like because of his alignment it was treated differently.

Hmmmm.... and what do you know of Gimbo's alignment?

Thats one of those awesome half-statements where you're implying suspicion without really giving any. I like it!

FS then gives a detailed thoughts on the game. Some key points (this is all the same post, mind you).

I also do not like FL's posts on this page, simliar to Manito, he was fence-sitting, yet had his vote on FL, and done nothing in the way of trying to look elsewhere. At this point, Im torn between K7 and Manito, with a FoS on FL.

The main reasons are beacuse of his fence-sitting, and I tend to go with this. Regardless of the fact that I removed my vote from Forbidden before the hammer, I was coming around to the idea that Forbidden was town.

I personally believe that this is a possibility, but... Like the mislynch of Forbidden, FL's activity level and answering of questions is commendable, and is townie like in comparison to others such as Corinthian, K7, dcorbe and bogre. It would seem that the strongest case is being made against FL at this moment, but I have reservations about him being scum. I cannot put my finger on it entirely, but I think a lesson must be learned in the circumstances of the Forbidden lynch. This remionds me of the Forbidden lynch, and tbh, it would not be good for town to lose another member before scums first NK.

I think FL is scummy, but might be town like the last lynch and better toss my shoutout to the lurkers woot woot!

As if this wasn't enough. We get OMGUS 2: Electric Bugaloo

VOTE: armlx

This is armlx's post right after Forbidden is lynched...

armlx wrote:
I'm currently leaning CF Riot or Firestarter, rereading is needed tho.

His next post...

armlx wrote:
Yeah, Vote Firestarter. Full case soon, but the major thing I saw was the distancing from the lynch towards the end.

And his next...

armlx wrote:

I can second this.

Still liking my Firestarter vote, but this is another good avenue.

I'd very much like to hear your "Case" armlx.
Let me post some facts for you however....
You have not once significantly contributed in any of your posts in this game whatsoever...
All you have done is post at max, 2/3 lines in each post.
Most of the time, its someone elses thinking, and the rest its correcting someone/adding filler.

So, yep, time to jump on Armlx for his vote.

armlx, your posted as promised, but

I dont feel

the commitment there Im afraid, especially after your initial first sentence in your first analysis post...

"I lose interest"

First off, ask to be replaced if your not interested...

Now, your play has been scumlike all the way through this game, are you seriously trying to tell me and everyone else that you were interested at any point in the game????

Because you sure as hell aint done anything different with your posting here, 1 or 2 per real day, every 2nd page, and after you threw your vote on FL, which, BTW, was never explained,

I'd imagine

because you were not called out on it like I have done, you then try to do the same with me.

Ive pointed that out, and youve been given no choice but to respond to this.

To me, your lying,

if you werent interested,

you probably

wouldn't have bothered with your posts on me.... Which fits nicely with a scum trying to lie low and post as infrequently as you have.

Its very easy for you to pick which posts I made that you can turn scummy with some clever wording, twisting words and what not. But nothing you have mentioned is solid,

you also have no real evidence of me being scum, unlike what I have on you.

I also laid in another post facts that you have ignored/twisted, such as when I removed my vote of FL, and the posts Ive asked for others to reread/not hammer.

Facts are facts,

and what Ive mentioned above, and in my analysis post of you, HAS happened....
What you have mentioned is your interpretation of what you think has happened....

Your interpretation = Scum interpretation.

Facts ARE Facts.
Feelings, however, are feelings.
Guess what the above has?

Again, guess what I had to say about this way back when:

Firestarter, your first analysis of arm honestly feels like an OMGUS.

For my own sanity, I will NOT be posting huge excerpts from the pile of sad that is the armlx/FS slapfight.

So, we move past that.

KoC, Im not ignoring you, I just dont think FL is scum at this point.

See my analysis post when I hopped back into thread.

Regardless, Ive got my own suspect. And tbh, the evidence on armlx is much more damning from my POV.

Fl isn't scum because of his analysis (which I showed earlier). Better stick on that armlx train.

Waitt....

Likely answer armlx, but I was not avoiding any issues. I made my point after you questioned me about not refuting accusations.

Ok.. Unvote

Im getting the same feeling that I got from Forbidden, only on a much stronger level from armlx. Im also satiated with your responses to my points, queries, and ultimately my case.
You are almost 300% more active then you were before, and looking into cases.

So, its the same as Forbid was...except this time no one jumped on the train.

This could be good though - maybe you're not going to just OMGUS. Maybe you'll go after real cases. Right? RIGHT?

Ok, Vote: Killa7

I dont like your lurking for the fact that you are coming out when called on, its not a case of flaking in this game, your reading, and not contributing.

Minimal posts, bad posts at that (particularly your last one)...
Come out from your hiding place...

Well, lets see what we have to say about this case... at least its not OMGUS.

Now, as for K7.. Looking back, I'd imagine at least one scum was on the Forbidden wagon, and K7's post where he threw the vote down looks scummy given all thats happened.
It looks very opportunistic and I now want a response from him.

@K7, Im not the only one asking for you to do anything, if the above vote count is right, you have 3 votes on you.
It makes sense that you've only responded to the voter on you that has the most interest in them atm, me.
So now, your gonna ask questions... *Wonderment...*

But you have only posted when called out, and at that, with little or next to nothing of help for town. You have not contributed significantly up to this point either. No cases, no thoughts... But serious lurking.

Forbidden flipped Town, and you were on that wagon, I dont believe it was purely town-driven, do you?

Add to the fact that you went into hiding after your vote, then it rings alarm bells.

The first lynch at final vote:

forbiddanlight - 9 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia, Joubert, CF Riot, Gimbo)

Could there be scum on that wagon? Ohh hell yes.
You're saying the FIRST person on the wagon is the scum and, hoenstly, dont look at anyone else? Hell, I'm mystical vote number 3. You WERE looking at the hammer but dropped it for..meta reasons. Yet, K7?

then we get MORE armlx/fs debacle.

I do like this gem though:

Forbidden... She messed with a silly gambit, I was the only active player along with her at the time, I pressurised her, I got a town read from her.
I find it strange that people who voted her out after little or no scumhunting, and did not listen to what I said, i.e. remove their vote, and think the lynch over as I suggested.
Those same people have seen an opportunity to remove another town player from the game, for doing as town do.. Question, pressurise, and have the balls to remove their vote...
Am I the only one who finds this strange?

Guys, I totally saw that FL was town and removed my vote (after applying a lot of the pressure that led to her getting votes) but then I saw the error of my ways and removed it (after the train obviously wouldn't have breaks) so I'm totally town because SHE was town and I DIDNT vote for her. RIGHT? GUYS?

At least through all this he's stuck to his guns. I mean, there's bandwagons growing and everything else but K7 is scummy (which I agree with) so we have that in our favor right..

Ok, Ive seen enough to change my vote. At Least K7 is posting now, but my suspicion of him is still extremely high....

UNVOTE: VOTE: CORINTHIAN...

I will keep my extremely keen FoS on K7 for now, as even though he is posting, hes not doing enough to alleviate the pressure on him...

At least there is reasons though, right?
Hmm...
Nope?
Maybe later?

However, Im liking the Corinthian wagon alot more at this point.

(For the record, I never see a reason for the Corin wagon).









Well, we haven't tangled with CFR for a while, right?

I find myself repeating myself again when it comes to you CFR....

When someone else looks like their gonna be lynched, you pop up, and suggest me for a lynch... everytime... without fail... scuppering progress on lynching 1 of 2 lurkers, 1 of 2 who have contributed very little other than token posts here and there... and 1 of 2 that are by far scummier than anyone else.

Have you even looked at the other guys who happen to have the most votes right now?

This post looks familiar too... asking someone with a vote on him to change it because... ?. WHY DO THESE THINGS KEEP FEELING LIKE THEY'VE HAPPENED BEFORE?

Now we start moving into the sad part of this day. When nothings happening.... CFR asks FS about his lynch preference.

Either K7 or Corin... as stated above, there are alot of votes on both of them. My vote is on Corin at the moment, that wont change unless we are almost at deadline, and if there is a better chance of K7 being lynched, and my vote is required to do so, I will, as I get scum reads from both of them, just more from Corin right now.

Even though I've went ON AND ON about K7 and not mentioned Corin much at all Corin is scummier so I'll lynch him unless it looks like K7 will be the lynch then I'll lynch him.... swish.

This, however, does not take from the fact that both Corin ^ K7 have exhibited more scum vibes than anyone else...

After all, they would not be in the position they are in if they did not.

Still tryin to find them Corin takes from you... still not.

Then, Corin was lynched. LTG died.

So, next day starts. Fresh slate, right? Time for something new?

Looking back, I cant let go of this exchange before I left earlier....

@ armlx... how on earth was I trying to get people to change their vote just BEFORE I left the game???
Its a lame reply, and something no-one picked up on...

The 2 bolded quotes stick out for me after you initially poked fun at my suspicious players in the game, you being one of them...

You say Im OMGUS'ing, yet I took my vote from whoever it was on at the time, and did not place it on either you or "the also mentioned" CFR....

I stated who I thought was suspicious as my parting gift, as at that stage, it seemed I was likely to be lynched. A dead townie's past posts can be quite useful!

I based my reply to you on me being lynched... and you saying it was OMGUS, is to me, a freudian slip.
IMO, you based your "OMGUS" post on me being lynched also, and you KNOWING Im gonna flip town

Both your replies are very generalised......
"Yeah, thats about what I thought. Appeal to emotion up the wazoo (the townie part, not the leaving part), OMGUS, etc."
"No, its you trying to look town pre-lynch to convince people to swap to an alternative wagon. Happens a LOT."

The 2 posts are lazy, generic of a situation, and an awful attempt to brush off a very valid point I made...

VOTE: armlx

At this moment, Im thinking at least 2 of 3 from armlx, CFR & SC being scum.

At this moment, I'm thinking the OMGUS, OMGUS or the person I've never mentioned again (my scumbuddy) might be scum.

Well, at least its armlx. Sticking to those convictions.

So, CFR, your gonna push my wagon without a case, on a hunch.. so to speak?

Yet youve posted a case on KoC.....

You can kinda see where Im going with this, cant ya...

What you have consistently done throughout this game is ask others if they found me scummy, if they find any others more scummier than me, and why they haven't voted for me based on answers to those questions....

Yet all you have is a hunch!!!!!

I clearly chose the wrong one of my 2 suspects to place a vote on right now, and your last post gives me enough vindication to do this...

UNVOTE...
VOTE: CF Riot

If the best you can come up with for lynching me after 56 pages is a hunch, then you deserve to be lynhced. You've hounded me all game long.....with nothing!!

So, we get another OMGUS with the grounds that he made a case on KoC but voted Firestarter...

Something dawns on me.. something about K7 and Corin.. I just cant remember though.

Well, back into the fray.

In all fairness, in that game, as well as the others I was involved in, including this one.. I wasn't around too much to participate anyways.

Regardless, I still feel CFR is scum.....

Im looking at armlx, Koc, or SG as a possible partner or 2... depending on how many scum we have left.

I also have a horrible sensation that K7 is getting away with doing nothing, and falling further under his meta to avoid scrutiny...
But for that very reason, he is drawing no thunder...

Golly gee the first post says exactly how many scum there are and we sure haven't killed any but I, the towny I am, SURELY have no idea how many scum there could be left.

Better toss more suspicion on K7 though.

Although my list may be noteworthy for the fact that those players are voting me, the other fact, thats clear to me, is that the others aren't as scummy as the players Ive mentioned.

As for asking me why I'd connect you with KoC, its not as easy as saying I think you may be a pair... Its a distinct possibility for me....

Your voting pattern is..
K7
Forbiddenlight
K7
Firestarter
Firestarter

Yet, its very attainable that you've posted more content, case building wise, on KoC...... yet, I didn't even see a FoS to his name from you....

Now look at the case on me, or as admitted by you... NO CASE....

At a push, I would say you've bussed KoC thus far...

In fact, there is one post of yours, containing 1 particular line, bolded in orange, that you think Koc & I are scum....

Again.... you built a case on KoC, did not on me, yet are voting for me...

I think your scum, and KoC may well be a scum buddy...

Something strange happened later today... something again odd...cant place it.

Do I really need to? Ok, Ill simplifiy it for you...
How many people are voting you?
Wouldn't it be easier for me to vote KoC right now, considering how many people are at the moment?
Yet you dont see anything familiar?

Its almost there...

Yup.... KoC likes his flavour of the day alright.... switching to "lynchables" when he can...

Im not gonna get a CFR lynch today, but Im happy to help lynch his buddy.

UNVOTE..
VOTE: Knight of Cydonia.

OHH THERE IT IS

Ohh delicious hypocrisy. How beautiful can you be.

Then I lay down a magnificent hammer, a delicious and beautiful thing...and vote for FS again.

What do I get.

If you were Town, I would say your being very blaise about this whole voting thing, Spyrex.....

You had a vote on me for some time, and as soon as the hammer presents itself, you do not hesitate to drop it... Not even waiting for a claim..

Now, thats basing it on you being town.

But there was a game I played with you recently, Ill find it and post a link, where the last thing you'd have done was drop the hammer like that....
Its against a town meta I have from you... Big time.

From the hammer, to your first post, post-hammer, and through the meta-read, you are behaving somewhat disgustingly scummy.

VOTE: Spyrex

Note: I've covered everything else in other posts today, but I felt that it was necessary to end this grand adventure on an OMGUS since, well, it started on one.

Summary (tl;dr):

1.) Firestarter was one of the most active proponents for the Forbidden lynch... until it had enough steam that he could get off it and wash his hands of that mislynch.
---- He, himself, later brings this up for town cred.
2.) Firestarter likes to OMGUS, a lot.
3.) When not OMGUS'ing, Firestarter likes to push suspicion on lurkers.
3.a.) When not either of the above Firestarter likes pushing on hammers.
----- Hammers, somehow are more suspicious? Unless you're K7 the bandwagon first vote (which FS says was made because of his suspicions).
4.) Firestarter made a case on K7, yet voted for Corin without ever providing reasons.
----- Since then, Firestarter has brought K7 up as a lynch over and over.
----- Firestarter ALSO jumped all over CFR for doing exactly what he did.
5.) Firestarter's cases on more than one person have evaporated once they started posting more.
----- All of these cases have been revisited at their convenience.

: "Ok, SpyreX, you've convinced us that Firestarter OMGUS's a lot. But..wouldn't town do that too? Why is that, in this case, such a huge scum tell? Why do you keep bringing it up?"
: "Well class, OMGUS is bad in all forms - however, when used this frequently it serves as a very valuable scum tactic. Firestarter, by being so active

appears

as though he's pushing for information and trying to help the town succeed. No one would think of him as lurking and it gives easy grounds to stick to convictions. However, as you should all know, there's one huge problem:"

6.) Firestarter has

NOT ONCE

this game built a substantial case on anyone - even the OMGUS cases are weak in nature. He has used attacks on him to keep him active (and to give an obvious reason for not being a NK). He has not actively scumhunted or really done anything. His convictions on players have been dropped or brought back up to further his only real agenda - staying alive.

Firestarter is scum. SC is a scum partner. OP has a high chance to be. FL, after rereading, also has a decent chance to be.

I expect all posts from this point on to have a "Vote: Firestarter" and "Thank you SpyreX for spelling it all out for us. You are our hero and we will give you dozens of fair maidens and have a holiday in your name."

[SpyreX]

Oh my god. This is a little over the top. I bet I read it all though...

*cough*

I expect all posts from this point on to have a "Vote: Firestarter" and "Thank you SpyreX for spelling it all out for us. You are our hero and we will give you dozens of fair maidens and have a holiday in your name."

[SpyreX]

One thing at a time my good man.

[SpyreX]

"I could try and explain this, but well, it's scummy because I'm scum so I wont."

[SpyreX]

? Is this some kinda trick Mr. Man? Applauding me then VOTING for me? Why I never.

[SpyreX]

I was pretty confident thats what he meant. I was making a joke guys.

[SpyreX]

He gave his "last thoughts" already.

[SpyreX]

We need a mod in here, STAT

[SpyreX]

Like doctors say, stat.

[SpyreX]

Nope, see, that'd be a nice thing. We all know he'll lurk his way all the way to the bank.

[SpyreX]

Wow, I'm honestly surprised I didn't get awesomeflack for yesterday.

Are you READYYYY for more "buddying"?

I still say FL and SC.

QFT, with the addition of K7 and I'm starting to get persuaded on manito some.

Here's where it sits though - let me know if my math is wrong but we've got

today

to hit a scum or tomorrow part 1 is lylo.

I'm very tempted to push for FL on the grounds of all the old cases + if FL is scum that lends some weight to killling K7 for TWO reasons (wont be a mislynch to lylo AND FL was the tie-breaker vote between K7/Corin on the worst day of this damn game).

[SpyreX]

Sorry about being gone. Amazingly, it looks like I actually missed THINGS happening.

The whole Manito / LF discussion.
1.) I am glad Manito is posting more now.
2.) I am not glad to see my named mentioned in Manitos posts so damn much - if you're going to talk about the case I made on FS, at least say WHAT it is you liked not just "I agreed with SpyreX".
3.) Manito is misrepresenting some of what LF is saying.
4.) LF makes a VERY good point about the K7/Corin lynch (again, one of the saddest points of this game).
5.) Manito OMGUS'ing LF is
6.) Manito saying FS's (who was scum, just didn't happen to be mafia) list of candidates is a reason to push on LF is also

I'm suspicious of Manito some, however.. and I'm not sure how this hasn't been brought up by ANYONE in detail:

It's kind of weird that LlamaFluff has been on every lynch and Manito hasn't been on a lynch at all. I see the case on Manito, but LlamaFluff seems a bit off because he switched to the guy about to be lynched on... if I count correctly, four occasions if you count Gimbo's hammer. He's consistantly been on a crusade to get Manito lynched, however, so I believe LlamaFluff to be town. I'll buy his case and vote Manito.

This logic hurts me. And follow me here:
1.) Every lynch we've had has been town.
2.) SC says LF has been on every lynch and that he

switched

to them.
3.) SC says Manito hasn't been on any lynches.
4.) SC is wrong about Manito.
5.) SC is wrong about LF (he was the first vote on two of the wagons).
6.) SC says LF has been "consistently on a crusade to get Manito lynched".
7.) Bonus Points - LF has been after Manito for doing #6 to FL as being scummy (which, to a degree it is).

Now, every part of the logic above is wrong. But the kicker? Honestly, If I had followed his logical pattern I would have came up with the result that LF is SCUM, not town.

This seems like a very, very suspect bandwagon jumping vote.
However, I'm still on FL.

Vote: FL
More than happy to hammer: SC
: Manito

[SpyreX]

While yes, I realize my vote against LF seems a little OMGUS since he just voted for me, I've also been building to this over time. I have stated, every single time LF votes, and someone doesn't vote with him and/or openly opposes him, that person gets voted/pressured by LF. Case and point, he's been after me from the start, mainly because of my pressure on FL (who I still believe to be scum). What really re-enforces my case is the evidence. FL was a hardcore pusher for forbiddanlight's lynch. K7 started the wagon on forbiddanlight. LlamaFluff's predecessor hammered forbiddanlight's lynch. Llama vehemently defends FL and K7, but won't go into detail about why he is so sure they are town, especially given their behavior (which I have clearly demonstrated as scummy, but he refuses to see reason).

For those facts, I think that Llama is the better choice for a lynch than FL today is, because of the following reasons - FL is being replaced, and can't defend himself; Llama is a loud, pushy voice, and he's using it to effect the voting atmosphere heavily - which, as scum, is a huge advantage to him, especially this close to end game. I'm sticking with Llama for now.

Ok, again we're going to do a breakdown (electric bugaloo)
1.) LF pressures people that dont agree with him - I see it to a degree, but you say EVERY time: please give all the examples.
2.) You say you still believe FL is scum.
3.) You say Llama is scum because Gimbo was the FL hammer on the train K7 started.
4.) You say Llama vehemently defends FL and K7. Again, you used one of those magic words that requires examples.

But THEN.

1.) You say FL isn't a good lynch because they're getting replaced and cant defend themselves - however you still think they are scummy. Why does the replacement fall into it.
2.) You say LF is a loud pushy voice and that benefits him end game - why is that more of a benefit than being a lurker or unassailable by being replaced.

Ultimately - you've been pushing on FL (which I agree with) ALL GAME. Now, again, there are votes on him and you take yours off (while still saying their scummy) implying a connection between FL / K7 / LF. Which, to a degree, is fine. The FL / K7 connection is fairly obvious... but why lynch LF to prove them when, of course, the connection is much easier solved by lynching FL?

In other words, I dont like it. At all - on first read it made me immediately think of a FL / K7 / Manito scumgroup: put pressure on FL but back out when lynched without losing the ability to put pressure back without qualms AND, if it goes all the way through, makes you look good on the bus.

I find it odd and suspicious that people think Manito is scummier than LF..

As awesome as this snipe is, I'd love reasons. Why would it be odd and suspicious to think Manito is scummier than LF. You got a case somewhere I missed?

A few other notes:
1.) If FL flips scum, we lynch K7 next. OMG Chain lynch all you want. No talking, no filibustering. We lynch K7 and if you dont like it you're a scumbo.
--- However, if FL is town, K7 either has to be lynched tomorrow or not at all - Seriously, we all know K7 is not going to be NK'd and I swear to everything holy if someone even mentions him for the lylo vote they are scum.
2.) I'm surprised that I haven't had flack for the last two days but I tell you this: either you hang me today or, again, let me live. Part of me thinks scum is waiting to pressure me for my hammer and FS case in lylo - don't buy it. If you think I'm scum speak up now or forever hold your peace.
3.) Again, SC is a fine vote choice. OP looks like he's trying to climb up there too. Today, however, I want FL to dangle. If this means I need to megapost so you all can climb on, so be it.
4.) I'm still surprised at Manito picking up the "Firestarter said look at these guys" but of course didn't mention K7, who I think is the only non-omgus case FS had as a viable option.
5.) Everyone needs to post more. Namely I want some serious business from TSPN and Arm. Right now, duh, I think you're both town so I'd like some more analysis. We're getting lazy and I dont like it.
6.) I'm going to update my votecount / wagon posts in the next day or two.

[SpyreX]

I'm well aware of that. Your point?

If every lynch we've had has been town, and you're saying its weird that LF is on every lynch and Manito isn't on ANY lynches and then vote for Manito you're implicitly implying that every lynch has, at most, 2 of the three scum on it. However, as I dont think that every lynch has had the same players on it EXCEPT for LF, that narrows it down to 1 on most lynches.

Hence, when we're this far along and all we've hit is town, I could see "X has been on every town-killing bandwagon" versus "Y hasn't been on any, because he KNOWS THEIR ALIGNMENTS"

So I counted wrong. Kindly point me to where he's first on the eventual lynch, please.

Funny thing is, I already did that before. But I'll do it again.
Corinthian - 6 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja, StrangerCoug, orangepenguin, FaerieLord)
Knight of Cydonia - 7 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin, armlx, Firestarter, StrangerCoug, SpyreX)

See, we've had what? 4 lynches. You made a sweeping statement that was 50% incorrect. That's not an accident - that is purposefully using bad information to justify a vote.

#4 has actually already been brought up by somebody after I made that statement. If I'm not mistaken once again, Manito was on the Day 2.5 lynch?

Yep, AND
forbiddanlight - 9 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia, Joubert, CF Riot, Gimbo)

Again, 4 lynches, 50% wrong. See above.

It's kind of odd that you turn an attack on me about my incorrect statements about LlamaFluff into an attack on LlamaFluff himself. Not scummy in my book, though, but it's something that's sticking out.

I...what?

Now, every part of the logic above is wrong. But the kicker? Honestly,

If I had followed his logical pattern

I would have came up with the result that LF is SCUM, not town.

If I had just accepted what you said I would have disagreed with the end result. However, I obviously didn't accept what you said and I think that the only attack I'm making is on you because, really, that set of "justification" amounts to nothing more than an excuse to plop your vote down.

And it wasn't just "your incorrect statements about LF". It was "every statement of fact you made in that post was wrong and used to justify (poorly) a vote."

[SpyreX]

...and, oddly enough, the only wagon FL was on was the tie-break between Corin and K7.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, if your case is essentially my failure to pay much attention, then go ahead. I'm too lazy to go back and look through stuff. I usually play as I go. I've thought of replacing out because of my playing so poorly, but that's pretty much chicken on my part.

I don't see much of a case on LlamaFluff, though.

I'm running out of words.

I am not saying you are lazy. I am saying that you

actively

found a "reason" to jump onto a wagon. I am saying that every part of your rationale for voting Manito over LlamaFluff was flawed.

I am NOT saying ANYTHING about the cases on either Manito or LlamaFluff.

Just you. You saw an opportunity and you jumped on it.

<3 TSPN. OP, I'm interested to see what you have to say about it.

[SpyreX]

Can we just go over what pairings make sense now? And whether its a 1 way connection or reciprocal? Like SC-OP is one, FL-K7 another.

So, how tinfoil hat are we going with this?

I'll figure out all the combinations I could see tonight hopefully.

[SpyreX]

The ground itself churned around them. The battlefield was slick with the dead, fallen in pursuit of an enemy they could feel, but yet could not see. The army itself fragmented - fighting against shadows or their former comrades. The battle waged on between two brave soldiers: Llama and Manito. As others watched the blades clash they

knew

one would fall soon.

Yet, the enemy itself weakened. In a moment, a lapse, StrangerCoug's normal visage was replaced with that of a demon from hell. Fire burned behind those twisted eyes. The army knew they had to take this chance. Manito and Llama banded together against this new foe and he was smote.

I had some LA and then when I decided to get back into this I came to see this. It spawned a little poet in me. You're not getting a case out of me on this one - its right there in front of you.

Unvote, Vote SC

[SpyreX]

Hi ThAdmiral!

Welcome to the game. Please vote SC. Others will follow.

[SpyreX]

I haven't bought LF or you, personally. Definitely not over FL or now SC.

SC isn't just that statement. He's been ready to jump on either of you depending on the way the wind blows...and he never said one of you was scummy over the other.... wait... I said I'm not making the case.

IM NOT MAKING THE CASE

TSPN, do it! You know you want to.

[SpyreX]

I'll admit I owe it a reread - I dont think anything in your case is bad.... it just seems like part of it is defintiely the connection to other scummier players and I'd want them first.

[SpyreX]

^ See above. Lynch SC. Dance.

[SpyreX]

It's kind of weird that LlamaFluff has been on every lynch and Manito hasn't been on a lynch at all. I see the case on Manito, but LlamaFluff seems a bit off because he switched to the guy about to be lynched on... if I count correctly, four occasions if you count Gimbo's hammer. He's consistantly been on a crusade to get Manito lynched, however, so I believe LlamaFluff to be town. I'll buy his case and vote Manito.

I'm going to unvote Manito at the moment. It's either him or LlamaFluff that I want to go after, but

I really don't know which.

I highly doubt two scum would bus each other the way LlamaFluff and Manito are going at each other, but I'm not convinced they're both town at the moment.

As I think I said, I don't think

LlamaFluff vs. Manito is town vs. town,

but I'm going to voice my thoughts right now. I'll build on this later and probably vote one of them.

Since I have more reason to believe LlamaFluff is scummier than Manito given the former's contradictions and I see little if any case on the latter, I think I'm justified if I vote LlamaFluff right now.

Hey, Manito and LlamaFluff are the big standouts and I intend to have one of them lynched, OK?

Hey, Manito and LlamaFluff are the big standouts and I intend

to have one of them

lynched, OK?

TheSweatpantsNinja, if your opinion is that LlamaFluff and Manito are both

town (which I don't believe)

, then I'd like to hear how you came about that based on their actions.

Be a hero. Vote SC.

[SpyreX]

No heroes today apparently.

[SpyreX]

It appears that I hath been prodded. I have came back to see... nothing changed. Although we do have a new player that said something bad about me on page..1?

I may have to go check that out.

[SpyreX]

QFT

[SpyreX]

I'm gonna go ahead and respond to this. I will say this though.

Net, I like what you're doin. I hope you continue. I only ask that you give the in-depth like you did on me on all your suspects and more detailed answers on who you think are town and why (with citations where possible).

Anywho, to the points:

Don't like this type of post, but more importantly, it assumes that the actions so far are down by scummy townies, and not scum.

Ohh, it could have been a mix of both. The "we" in that case refered to the game as a whole - I HATE it when its hard to pickup on scummy behavior because everyone decides to be scummy.

Inconsistent POV.

I'm not seeing the inconsistency. Selfvoting early on doesn't make any sense and you're hurting the town by doing it - hence, I can't see doing this as a town. However, I can not see a reason why that early a scum would do it either. Selfvoting, flat out, makes no sense at that point.

Not sure how he could arrive at this conclusion when manito's hardly posted.

I think, and although recent events have given some suspicion, still think Manito is town. Its just a gut - the BUT is the important part - despite what I think at that point he had been parroting. It was raising a flag so I brought mention of it.

Same. This post is about gimbo btw.

I thought he was town - although I will explain more why this is a BAD IDEA on my part and I am sorry about it in retrospect. I'm still not sure what you're aimin for - it is simply a gut feeling.

Sets up future suspicions.

That I later hung him like a goose for (among other things). I didn't like it and I DID find it suspicious.

Contradicts his use of meta in his analysis:

This is the one thing I give you 100% on. You are right and I absolutely shouldn't have given Gimbo ANY slack because of the fact he is/was absolutely nutbag crazy and would do just that as town. I still think metas are retarded and reading that (albeit months ago) makes me a little sad at myself too.

Plus, I don't agree with his stance on meta. I'm not sure if he rejects the use of meta in every game he plays. This has a sinister side in that it could be a good way to get people with scummy metas lynched.

I'd tell you to check my other games but that'd be meta. Rest assured, I think meta is always retarded and people who play scummy should be hung for playing scummy and not have the free out when they are actually scum. So, if you think this is a point against me because you dont agree - well, thats really not a good reason now is it? (Would that be meta-meta?)

Inconsistent. Shortly earlier, he called killa a lurker lynch.

I wish I had the posts your referencing handier, but here we go:

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:18 pm
I want Killer to post more content. At heart, I'm still seeing this as a lurker lynch and I have a hard time agreeing with that this early.

Now, the full post that statement is from:

Hold up a sec, today is the deadline?

So, we've got two wagons with some force behind them. I do not think that we're going to be able to get steam on any other ones if today is deadline. I DO NOT want a nolynch.

I still honestly believe in my case on FL. I do not want that to fall to the wayside.

K7's play has been unhelpful and his comments have been, well, scummy. However, the one thing people keep bringing up (his jump on the forbid train) I did not find to be a scum-move.

So, I dont like the fact this case is being pushed the way it is, but I do understand it. If today is really deadline I'm sad we're doing a last-minute scramble.

Unvote:
Vote: K7

With full context, I hope it makes a little more sense. K7's comments have been scummy. However, the one actual thing he did I didn't find scummy - so I felt it was being PUSHED as a lurker lynch. In a last minute scramble the fact he'd been kinda scummy makes it far superior to a no-lynch.

In fact, not much later I say:

See, I hate lurkers, and I doubly hate ones that pop in and are scummy. However, I see scummy actions in some of the active players so I would not, except to avoid a mislynch, vote on a case on day 1 that is, ultimately, a lurker case.

His increasing of killa each time "scumminess" seems kinda mechanical. Just doesn't feel right to me. Also, see above contradictions.

I think I've covered the perceived contradictions. As the game goes on, lurking and playing like K7 becomes scummier because, by nature, it becomes more consistant and bad. I'm not seeing how finding it more scummy as it continues (versus being against it as a day 1 lynch) is.. bad?

Scummy. I'm a fan of humorous hammers too, but as town I would not be comfortable hammering like that without being resolute in my decision.

When or how wasn't I resolute in my decision? I don't feel bad about that lynch. At all.

Not a fan of how he repeatedly uses OMGUS to dismiss entire cases.

Case(s)? Has there been real cases against me (before this) aside from Firestarter? Who, if you look at that specific example, felt like a bag of OMGUS - because, as I proved town or not, he had consistently been doing that?

I'm not OMGUSin' this. Although, I'll admit if I dont see this level of detail on other suspects I'd be a little tempted.

Not sure what you're saying here.

The whole Manito / LF discussion.
1.) I am glad Manito is posting more now.
2.) I am not glad to see my named mentioned in Manitos posts so damn much - if you're going to talk about the case I made on FS, at least say WHAT it is you liked not just "I agreed with SpyreX".
3.) Manito is misrepresenting some of what LF is saying.
4.) LF makes a VERY good point about the K7/Corin lynch (again, one of the saddest points of this game).
5.) Manito OMGUS'ing LF is Sad
6.) Manito saying FS's (who was scum, just didn't happen to be mafia) list of candidates is a reason to push on LF is also Sad

I'm still not sold on him being scum, but that exchange and the points above is . Hence, the .

Well, I think having that sad face and highlighting a couple bits of manito's play must mean something. What do you have to say about Manito?

Ok, this is the only one you did that I am honestly flabbergasted at.

The full post (in response to SC's post:)
[quote="SC']SpyreX, if your case is essentially my failure to pay much attention, then go ahead. I'm too lazy to go back and look through stuff. I usually play as I go. I've thought of replacing out because of my playing so poorly, but that's pretty much chicken on my part.

I don't see much of a case on LlamaFluff, though. [/quote]

I'm running out of words.

I am not saying you are lazy. I am saying that you actively found a "reason" to jump onto a wagon. I am saying that every part of your rationale for voting Manito over LlamaFluff was flawed.

I am NOT saying ANYTHING about the cases on either Manito or LlamaFluff.

Just you. You saw an opportunity and you jumped on it.

<3 TSPN. OP, I'm interested to see what you have to say about it.

In full context, it follows that in my "discussion" with SC about

his

voting for one of the two based on their cases it was logically flawed and opportunistic. I am NOT making a statement about those CASES, but on SC's play in REGARDS to them.

This does not mean, nor should it have even been possible to interpret, as me not having said anything about MY feelings on the cases (I quoted my own post above) - just that I wasn't saying anything about them in regards to SC's vote.

----------------------------------------

So, I hope that clears some of it up some and I really hope you DO post like this on other players - or my tinfoil hat's gonna come out again.

SC is still the right lynch for today BUT, like I said long ago - I DO NOT want to be a potential lylo lynch for fail. If you think my play is scummy you better decide it now and lynch me or decide I'm town and let it slide (at least until we have some breathing room).

So, yea, hope I caught everything.

P.S. Lynch SC.

[SpyreX]

I still plan on one of Manito and LlamaFluff dying today; however, I do see SpyreX's case and have him as a suspect as well.

Do I really need to explain this? Seriously, you want to lynch me tomorrow, FINE... but this has just gotten out of hand. (Hint, look at the votes on me RIGHT before this is said).

Still strange, though, since the normal course of action would be to attack such scummy actions.

There was just too many. It seemed like it was setting a tone and, of course, later specific actions were attacked for it.

For forbiddan to hurt the town ("you're just hurting the town") with a self vote, she would have to be town. Thus, it's inconsistent with thinking her scum.

I guess the "if" would have helped. If she was town - this whole business would be hurting the town. However, I saw no real reason for a town to do it and more for a scum. It was one of those "I'm not sold 100% on you yet, so if I'm wrong you are hurting the town by self-voting and not trying to fix this debacle"

Sometimes, scum may arbitrarily decide someone town before enough content has been posted. I usually check whether the conclusion (player x is town) follows or not.

Also, I'm curious why it is a bad idea now.

It was gut. The reason it is a bad idea is that some of it was based on meta. Meta is bad. I was bad for thinking that way.

If killa's comments were scummy, it would be strange to think his lynch a lurker lynch.

His comments were little snipes - the case at that point felt like a lurker push which, that early, I was against. I'm not sure what else you want from me here.

Odd comment to make.

Not really - if I dont see this level of analysis on other players as you come in I'll question the intergity of your analysis as a whole - which would make me wonder if it was scummy by nature.

Strange substitute.

I thought manito was town early - I still KINDA do. So, watching the spiral towards mislynch is

Again, however, read above. Look at SC today. Also,

Since no one is interested in an armlx lynch, and since netlava is interested in a spyrex lynch...

unvote, vote: spyrex

..What?

[SpyreX]

OHH NO WE ARE DOING IT AGAIN

[SpyreX]

OHH NO WE ARE DOING IT AGAIN

Huh?

Armlx and spyrex are such obvious scumbuddies.

I'll be away for the next two days. Catch ya later.

Operative word in my post: plan. Which implies that if, for some reason neither a Manito lynch nor a LlamaFluff lynch are viable today, you are my other suspect of the day and I can push for your lynch today too if you rise above both of those people.

"If neither of the people who I have been flipflopping on and honestly haven't given reasons for thinking are scum (yet said one is scum) and somehow flipped my vote around don't managed to get the rope I will happily jump onto the new bandwagon."

GUYS. LYNCH SC. SERIOUSLY.

EXCUSE ME WHILST I TYPE THIS UP ON MY INVISIBLE TYPEWRITER!

StrangerCoug - 3 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX, armlx)
SpyreX - 2 (Netlava, ThAdmiral)
Netlava - 1 (orangepenguin)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Manito)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven, StrangerCoug

10/6

-Mod

[SpyreX]

Well, if you're gonna look at it that way, proving half your analysis before you were done is pre-emptive too.

[SpyreX]

I guess I shouldn't be joking I have SC's "wrath" to deal with.

Is this time for megapost battle? IS IT?

[SpyreX]

Not with you, directly. I'll do one on SC and then we can race!

[SpyreX]

A reminder why we don't talk to Strangers (or Stranger Cougs) and why we should avoid consorting with Ogres (or Bogres).

The Ogre comment is mostly there for comedic event. He didn't say enough to get a full read - the only thing really commented on was the FL which could go either way.

So, without further adeau I give you: The Coug

Phase One: FaerieLord?

This one surprised me. Maybe its rereading or its looking at SC in isolation, but wow.

Down memory lane we shall all go. Bring your coats, children, because its going to be cold and dark. I guarantee.

If I had to do an LoS based only on information that I've been able to absorb up to this point, you would be relatively low, and I believe you've done a good job cleaning Gimbo's slate. Top suspect is killa seven, and my current understanding of FaerieLord puts her in second place; however I want to take a look at the latter's case before saying anything about her.

So, FL is second, but he wants to look before he says anything. Fine.

I'll take a look at Corinthian when I get the chance. I know that I said I'd do FaerieLord next, and that's something I've yet to bother doing. I really don't want to lynch Manito right now since killa seven voted for him without giving a reason. If I had to make a guess as to the three scum, then killa seven, Corinthian, and FaerieLord are it.

Still hasn't looked, more than willing to toss her in as the scum group though.

Actually, FaerieLord's posts in isolation don't give me much suspicion except about the forbiddanlight case, however, she hasn't posted since August 1, so Mod: Please prod FaerieLord.

I'd ask to prod Corinthian too, but he says he's unavailable half the week, so I won't until late Wednesday or sometime Thursday if he doesn't show up.

Well, I guess that counts as looking into.. right? I mean he has suspicion, but doesn't say why, but I guess its there.

Mine are killa seven, Firestarter, and a toss-up between FaerieLord and LlamaFluff. I need a reread too, and 41 pages is a lot.

...time passes...

Minor FoS: Knight of Cydonia for strawmanning FaerieLord. If she's lost, though, it would be best for her to ask about what she's confused about.

To the defense!

And then we are brought up to snuff. FaeireLord: Always the bridesmaid, but never the bride. Now, for a day, or even half a day.. sure. This long? Questionable. More than once there have been wagons on FL and SC has always been there to be suspicious... but never a vote on one of his top three.

Why would someone do this you may ask? Well, its always nice to put a scumbuddy on the list so that if they get chanked you can jump on and say see, I KNEW something was off. But, why do it premature? Instead, keep on keepin on' with the popular lynches.

WHICH IS WHAT WE GET TO NEXT!

Part 2: Voting: The Great Conundrum!

Looking at Corinthian's posts, he seems to be overly defensive.

This is my least favorite post of his mostly one-liners:

God I hate you, Llama.

Me, Manito, and KoC have all gotten votes from you based on the idiotic idea that it's all right to vote for someone to pressure them into responding to you.

I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit.

Tell me there isn't something wrong with refusing to give information.

Unvote: killa seven
Major HoS: killa seven
Vote: Corinthian

Vote goes on Corinthian in the day that shall not be named. For the above post and being overly defensive.

If anybody wants to get on my case for my deciding to unvote: Corinthian and vote: killa seven just because I suspect him

along with nine other people

, please do so now, as I'm tired of the waiting game and I'm not known for my patience anyway. 11:13 PM is not the time to muster up the willpower to go back and check what everybody said about the latter anyway.

LEAP TO THE CLOUDS

Unvote: killa seven and switch back to a Vote: Corinthian because numbers mean nothing. They don't lie, but speculation can turn out to be wrong.

I know, lame reason, but so was the reason for switching the other way around. It, too, involved numbers.

God, I sound like I can't decide whether or not I want to be a conformist

OHH GOD HOT POTATO BETTER LEAP BACK
(although not a vote post, this comes in handy for the next set of voting)
KEEP IN MIND I AM NOT MISSING POSTS OR ANY MAGIC LEAPS BETWEEN THESE TWO. BE AMAZED.

CF Riot,

Firestarter's posts in isolation give me mostly townie vibes.

He switched two of his confirm votes, but I'll go ahead and dismiss that as a null tell. The only other thing I don't like about him off hand is his occasional megaposts.

Mine are killa seven, Firestarter, and a toss-up between FaerieLord and LlamaFluff. I need a reread too, and 41 pages is a lot.

Firestarter gives me townie vibes, but he is a TOP suspect (and our buddy FL is there too!)

Well, better get back to the voting:

I still can't find an awful lot of useful posts by killa seven, and

he's the other of the two people the town was split on lynching

in Day 1.5. Vote: killa seven until I start seeing decent posts from this guy or I have a better person to go after, whichever happens first.

Voting for not being useful! YES. YES. THIS IS HOW WE DO IT.

(Dancing with Llama, not even bothering right now)

Then.

More confirmation bias with guilt by association added to the mix.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

I'm not getting anything scummy from Manito's posts in isolation, but LlamaFluff's case on him here still makes sense to me.

Just here for reference in a later question (WHAT COULD IT BE?? KEEP READING, CITIZEN, AND FIND OUT).

I unvoted pending Knight of Cydonia's new PBPA on killa seven, the latter of which I still suspect.

Thanks for the reminders, armlx and LlamaFluff. I have a PBPA I'm waiting for.

I will as soon as I get that PBPA of killa seven that Knight of Cydonia said he'd do. Don't rush me please.

killa seven, when KoC does a PBPA on you, I want to know what you have to say on both the PBPA and KoC himself.

Well, darn it, vote: Knight of Cydonia until he convinces me to move it! There! You happy!?

Waiting for the PBPA

on K7

. Sure...

Knight of Cydonia wrote:
I'd say you've got plenty, SC. You seem to be saying you're up for an FS lynch, but voting the most popular wagon currently, anyway.

Very well then, I will unvote you and vote Firestarter for OMGUS. I have more information on him than you and killa seven.

What? Just, what?

Pfft. I asked for an updated PbPA on killa seven from Knight of Cydonia. I don't remember seeing it. Deadline's looming, and I don't see a Firestarter lynch in this half of the day.

Unvote: Firestarter
Vote: Knight of Cydonia

THIS IS LYNCH MINUS ONE.

LEAP BACK TO THE CLOUDS. JUMP CHILD, JUMP.

I am at a loss of words, SpyreX. I simply cannot believe the amount of damning evidence against Firestarter in your #1657.

I know what I am, but seeing as I'm sold about him, I'm left with one and only one option.

Unvote: SpyreX
Vote: Firestarter

Fair enuf.. I guess. (We'll get to this later)

Then, TODAY!

I don't think I have a vote out, but I'll still unvote just in case.

LlamaFluff makes me want to look at Manito, so I'll do that now.

It's kind of weird that LlamaFluff has been on every lynch and Manito hasn't been on a lynch at all. I see the case on Manito, but LlamaFluff seems a bit off because he switched to the guy about to be lynched on... if I count correctly, four occasions if you count Gimbo's hammer. He's consistantly been on a crusade to get Manito lynched, however, so I believe LlamaFluff to be town. I'll buy his case and vote Manito.

I don't see much of a case on LlamaFluff, though. (THIS IS AWESOME)

I'm going to unvote Manito at the moment. It's either him or LlamaFluff that I want to go after, but I really don't know which. I highly doubt two scum would bus each other the way LlamaFluff and Manito are going at each other, but I'm not convinced they're both town at the moment.

As I think I said, I don't think LlamaFluff vs. Manito is town vs. town, but I'm going to voice my thoughts right now. I'll build on this later and probably vote one of them.

Since I have more reason to believe LlamaFluff is scummier than Manito given the former's contradictions and I see little if any case on the latter, I think I'm justified if I vote LlamaFluff right now. (SEE THE ABOVE AWESOME)

Hey, Manito and LlamaFluff are the big standouts and I intend to have

one of them lynched

, OK?

I agree it's not pro-town of me to keep a vote without really knowing why anymore, so the only acceptable course of action is for me to unvote you,

but I still intend to get rid of one of you and Manito today.

I'm just gonna let this speak for itself. Like I said, I'll have questions later for all the good boys and girls.

I still plan on one of Manito and LlamaFluff dying today; however, I do see SpyreX's case and have him as a suspect as well.

Woop.

If you've read this far, you're curious what questions I have right.

Here's a few:

1.) In all of the above, do you see in the votes actually thinking someone is scum?
2.) If you thought a particular 'spat' was NOT town on town (implying that one party is scum).. would you jump your vote back and forth?
----2.b) If you thought it was NOT town on town would you repeatedly say you wanted one of them lynched..without saying a preference?
----2.c) If you thought the above, would you willingly lend yourself to a third lynch possibility once it gained momentum?
3.) EXTRA CREDIT: From the above, its kind of given, but do a reread of SC and find a case he builds on any player.
----3.b) DOUBLE EXTRA CREDIT: Find a case he builds on any player that already isn't a matter of discussion for the day!

Phase 3: The MURDERERS!

I missed this because SC was a repalcement, but since he's been in he HAS been on every lynch(which makes his Llama statement cute) Lets look at this for a brief moment.

Firestarter - 7 (SpyreX, armlx, orangepenguin,

StrangerCoug

, Manito, TheSweatpantsNinja,LlamaFluff)
Corinthian - 6 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja,

StrangerCoug

, orangepenguin, FaerieLord)
Knight of Cydonia - 7 (LlamaFluff, killa seven, orangepenguin, armlx, Firestarter,

StrangerCoug

, SpyreX)

(Yea I know they're not in order, blah blah)
Two of the three he's right in the center. The third he was L-1... but only because he jumped off the wagon and back on half a dozen times.

Now, I'm not one of those OMG X VOTER PEOPLE. However, there is something to look at above. Square in the middle - not early building the wagon and cases and not late presenting themselves as a matter of contention when the flip is town. Right in the middle.

I AM one of those not building an actual case of your own on anyone is scummy. SC has really, really been guilty of that.

I AM one of those opportunistic voting patters are scummy. SC has really, really been guilty of that. SC is lord of the vote-hoppers and when the final hop has been right in the middle of each town wagon, well.

Changes in "reads" on players without anything in the game to warrant them (see what I posted about FS) are opportunistic.

The repeated "I'll get to FL" and not doing it - especially considering FL is very suspect. Bonus points for finally staying on the KoC lynch for, in essence, something you did all along with this.

Again, and I dont care that I was wrong about Firestarter... This IS scummy play. Today has been EXCEPTIONALLY scummy play.

So, yes. Vote SC. Be a hero.

[SpyreX]

Another use of meta.

Yes. Again, that was in the stupid times. I've come to learn really quickly how bad that is.

Scum read on Manito. I'll do SC later, but I re-read killa and have some more points I want to point out later too. And even though I haven't posted my analysis of SC yet, I don't recall anything in particular from him in my thread read through, so I'm going to go ahead and say that Manito, SpyreX, and killa7 are the scum and I'll be willing to vote any of those 3.

Just the timing makes me like this post. Actually, saying nothing in particular stood out is the first suspicious thing you've really done... that and sniping on me over these little details and the things I've done that I EXPECTED a new player to come in and question (my KoC hammer, my giant case on Firestarter)... you didn't really mention. And there is the fact that I just now realized you are the replacement for FL... wow. GO ME.

Doesn't matter though. Much rather put SC up to the rafters.

Also, after SC is lynched, SOMEONE ELSE IN THIS GAME gets to check out Joubert / ThAdmiral. Thats starting to become some bad news.

[SpyreX]

This case is less convincing than your other ones and is just as likely to lead us to another town lynch.
It's little more than a witch hunt.

You should definitely be the lynch for today.

I'm just gonna quote this. I know I can count on at least one or two people to put this together.

And since there's less players but still the same number of scum it can not be just as likely so THERE.

Note the word "except". I said the forbiddanlight case was what set me off on what was otherwise who, at that point, looked pro-town from his posts.

The majority of everything going on WITH Fl at this point was connected to the forbid case.

Not sure with what you're trying to incriminate with those posts here.

After a lot of time passed, this is the next reference to FL.

I'm not denying that bussing is a scumtell, but something about the question is setting off my WIFOM-meter.

Are you saying I'm bussing.. or?

And voting somebody for denying information and being overly defensive is scummy because?

What you posted wasn't "denying information" - it was an irritation post saying that voting to pressure him into responding isn't going to illicit said response.
Although I like the fact you used scummy this time through.

I did expect to get some rap for that, but like LlamaFluff if I remember correctly, I wanted to finish the day.

Jigga whaaat jigga whoo. I'm not gonna get after you about wanting to finish the day. I'll do that too. However, hopscotching between both of the large lynches when both are still viable is not ever a good thing - when the reason for hopscotching is not good.

So I was inconsistent. For me, being inconsistent = being unable to decide. I'll leave it up for debate what kind of tell it is.

Again, opinions changing isn't bad. When the opinion chages based on nothing in the game, thats worrysome. When the opinion changes as other people start putting more pressure on the target...

Keep in mind that I was being pressured for playing the waiting game. I had to act. I could no longer sit there.

Umm, yes, you could. Sheeple do not a town make.

What about what? Your question is too vague for me to give a response.

KoC, who you had voted for half a million times calls you out...and you switch your vote.

If being convinced by others counts, then yes. Don't forget that case of yours that killed Firestarter.

I expected this. Again, even when you voted for firestarter, look at what you said. You sure didn't say he was scum out and out. So, you keep letting other people get townies lynched and when they do you can go "i was just listening to youuuu"

Not if I were certain of which, which I wasn't.

Now, if you're not certain of which - how can you be certain of the "are" (one of them at least being scum). Certain enough that you've just reacted to their spat like a reed in the wind.

I was leaning Manito, then LlamaFluff, then undecided between those two. I think it implies that the case has your attention. I will on occasion suspect both sides of an argument so I can probe them and see who is most likely scum.

It could of course be scum on scum. I don't remember saying that they were scumbuddies, but nor do I remember ruling it out. Of course, memory isn't perfect, so...

Again, if you do not have a concrete reason to think one over the other..why the absolute fixation?

If neither lynched looked like it was happening and you didn't want yourself in an impasse.

If you are SO SURE one of them is scum, why at this point in the game would you give yourself a willing out to a third?

One on TheSweatpantsNinja regarding what look like a weak vote reason and one on you for misrepresentation.

Cite both.
SECRET BONUS CREDIT: Who was the weak vote on and who did I 'misrepresent'

Something's pinging with the way this is worded, but I can't quite determine it.

Well please do. I'd love to see it.

So everybody's case has to be original, in every tiny little detail, and once someone starts talking about one thing, everyone else loses the right to. I know this isn't true.

Yes we have to each be original little snowflakes. Wait. I didn't say that. I dont even think in normal world I implied that. Or used wishy-washy. I said your voting has been

opportunistic

. You've been the "me too" guy. Not building a case on your own - you have been totally reactionary and followed the biggest hitters all along.

I've mostly found it easier to play as I go, but I do reread. It's rare, but I do it.

Well, since you said "Upon my reread of player X, I saw Y and thought it was protown I'll buy it."... wait.

Wait—you build the vote hopping case on me, and then you say I "stay on" a lynch? What the heck is this!?

Wow.
You lept back and forth, and back and forth. Yet, when all the LEAPING WAS DONE the final reason for your sticky vote was...awesome!

I have class in ten minutes, and I'm going to shoot even more holes in you when I get home.

Bring em up, trigger!

How about this, ladies and gentleman. We lynch SC and when he's scum we get prizes! If, through some fluke of nature, he is town then I will hand myself up tomorrow!

Then the scum cant ride along on my 'dar apparently being broken this game!
Also, I'm not here to be the fail vote on day 3.1!
ITS WIN-WIN PEOPLE. You want me hung? Lynch SC. Be part of the solution!

[SpyreX]

GEE THIS IS FUN!

Because you were not yet at the center of my attention and those were my two guesses.

The center of your attention? Was I even a suspect before this for you? YES? EVIDENCE? nooooooo

Because there are three scum, not two. That's the only answer that I believe this tunnel vision-encouraging question deserves.

.... I'm tunnel visioning? For real? For mad reals?

But we'll get to these """cases""" (YES I USED THREE QUOTES)

Voting me because I am not getting the attention you want on me does not make an awful lot of sense in and of itself. I didn't give an awful lot of reasoning, but it's there. Knight of Cydonia, when I was undecided between him and killa seven, said he'd do another PbPA of the latter. It never happened. I had other reasons to suspect Knight of Cydonia, but I was too lazy to go look for him.

SpyreX is getting a lot of attention because he didn't explain jack why he hammered. You commented on his abrupt hammer. Why are you trying to pass the blame on him to me, when I gave sufficient warning that I was the L-1 vote on him?

And your case on me other than that is what again?

Where and how does this implicate TSPN as scum? How is this not in direct response to him saying the fact you haven't been a suspect and haven't had reasons for most of your votes that hold water...an OMGUS?

Operative word in my post: plan. Which implies that if, for some reason neither a Manito lynch nor a LlamaFluff lynch are viable today, you are my other suspect of the day and I can push for your lynch today too if you rise above both of those people.

BEST PART IS MY QUOTE STILL STANDS.

You've went: ONE of them is scum!! Over and over. Over and Over. OVER AND OVER. Yet the MOMENT there starts to be some flak on me you jump out and go "HEY, LOOK! I AM PRO THIS LYNCH TOO"

Neither of these are a case. Even a little bit.

A case implies looking at a series of actions someone has done and how they are scummy - see my Firestarter (even if I was wrong, the case still stands and I STILL dont feel bad about it). A reply to one thing (and not even saying how its scummy) != a case.

The fact that both your original """cases""" are in direct response to people calling you out is just icing.

And you STILL act like you're immune to my vote.

I am because, well, this is a joke. A cute joke. Its funny to me because even if you get your way today.. you're gonna get power lynched tomorrow. So, regardless of the outcome I win!

Granted, I haven't been good at original cases this game, but original cases by me exist. Stop dismissing them as nonexistent.

They dont exist. Hence I will keep dismissing em!

I don't remember TheSweatpantsNinja being one of the "biggest hitters" either.

Followed the biggest hitters = jumped on the bandwagons started by OTHER players (Llama, me, etc). Not flinging at TSPN.

Sorry, but if I can help it, you're dying before I do.

Disregarding the pure awesome in this statement.. you do realize that if you do get your way, you're dead tomorrow anywho, right? A 1-1 is something I'm fine with and I'm gonna get it either way so.

[SpyreX]

God this is just fun and giggles now.

What's a stretch, forbiddanlight's case or yours?

This word you use... case. It does not mean what you think it means.
BUT, ALLOW ME TO EXPLAIN:

In the random voting stage, waaaay back when during the time of innocence, FL threw out a random vote (fine) but then made a very strange statement in regards to said random vote...and if you look, what would you expect a response to that to be.

This wouldn't be something I would have caught a week ago. Heck, I might not even have caught it yesterday. But to apply what I've learned lately in my experiences to your case, Gimbo could just as easily have been confident in who he felt have been scum. I know the scum is also known as the informed minority, but just because someone claims to know who scum is and/or acts like it should not be taken on its own as grounds for incrimination.

God I was a cute little newbie back then. I guess I should have said it differently. Allow me to put it into todays terms:

Your case is not solid and it feels like you're bussing.

Not only is the part of this sentence after the comma scummy, but you made a post 10 hours, 23 minutes, and 46 seconds before saying this, and that was a meaningful post, too.

Days 1.5 and 2.0, you play just fine UNTIL...

Again, I was so cute when I cared what people thought. Wow, we come a long way in such a short time. See, to me, almost a day without saying anything seems like slow, and I didn't want to. Now, I dont care!

Absolutely no reasoning given. No chance for Knight of Cydonia to defend himself. Yet he dies.

When asked for a reason:

Yea he had no chance that whole time all those votes started piling on. I thought he was suspicious and we were dragging, so I killed him. Yep.

SORRY ABOUT NO REASON NEXT TIME I SHOULD FIND A WHOPPER LIKE HE DIDNT GIVE ME A PBPA BECAUSE THATS SOO SCUMMY.

What the hell, SpyreX? If your mental odds of Knight of Cydonia were more than 50%, then why on planet Earth did you hammer!?

Because it 50% is still enough for me to kill a scummy player? I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

This doesn't do anything to convince me you're town. In fact, you seem to acknowledge committing a scummy action.

What? When did I ever say that what I did was a scummy action.. in fact

Now, you mention that I said I wasn't surprised. I wasn't. It was obvious that wagon came on too fast from too many directions with no new reasons for the lynch for me to think it was a sure-fire scumhit. However, was KoC scummy? Sure was. Would KoC being alive have helped? Only as a body, but more as a perfect distraction for the scum on later days - we still have some eggs we can break for this omlete and I have no problem nailing scummy players.

In fact, pulling that wagon away (which I thought of) ultimatley had more negatives than positives:

- There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong.
- Pulling the wagon wouldn't alleviate his scummy play and would have made him a distraction on later days (see how K7 / FL are lynch candidates each day)
- It would NOT have given the analysis on that wagon that I am very sure has scum on it.

So, yep, I did it. I saw no need for a "last plea" - really, those are for role-based games to make sure you dont powerlynch a scummy cop or the like. In the game with just vanilla , yea, those player will and should be hung.

So that = me admitting it was scummy? Par for the course!

Ladies and gentlemen, SpyreX is a hypocrite. His case on me is that I just followed along with the town without adding my own input, but this is him doing EXACTLY THAT.

My case on you is that you, THIS ENTIRE GAME, have followed along with the town without adding your own input. That everything you've done has been bandwagon hopping and reactionary. How you can equate that to the post you quoted as being the same just doesn't make sense.

Anyone who does not see this as lining up lynches is blind.

Or illiterate because I WAS SETTING UP LYNCHES. ITS NOT LIKE I WAS HIDING IT WOO.

If FL is scum, K7 is the proper lynch because...all of his play.
However, if FL is town, K7 either needs to go right away or not at all because HE IS THE PERFECT TARGET FOR A LYLO MISLYNCH.

JUST LIKE HOW IF I AM WRONG ABOUT YOU I WOULD RATHER BE LYNCHED THAN BE A LYLO MISLYNCH.

Pointing that out is awful scummy, huh!

No, I'm saying you're encouraging it. Not guilty of it yourself.

Maybe I've just been being too nice about this.

You're whole "Manito or Llama" OMG fest today was stupid. It was also scummy because you really dont seem to care which one and, yet, somehow you over and over have said ONE MUST BE SCUM.

Yet, stupid as it was, it was consistent. You were tunnel visioning and as bad as it was you were doing it. Yet, the moment that I got some push on my wagon you throw out the "me too" flag. Par for the course, but its a scummy back 9.

I would like the other players to comment though. And then vote for SC, but ya know.

[SpyreX]

Thats fine. Although I am calling attention to this now for you being a good scum canidate if I'm wrong

EVER FALLEN IN LOVE WITH SOMEONE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE FALLEN IN LOVE WITH?

StrangerCoug - 4 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX, armlx, Manito)
SpyreX - 3 (Netlava, ThAdmiral, StrangerCoug)
Netlava - 1 (orangepenguin)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven

10/6

-Mod

[SpyreX]

Because you never offered him such.

Are you for real?

Its not like that wagon took place over a day. He had plenty of time.

It didn't necessarily have to be the failure to be a promised post; you could have spat out a scummy thing or two Knight of Cydonia did and be fine with it.

Again, I'm not sure if the sarcasm is missing you or not.

I DID say I found him scummy that day. More than once.

You kept leaping back and forth and landed on keeping it there

because he did not give a PBPA

of KILLER SEVEN

.

Right before the death scene, you said that, even though you found Knight of Cydonia scummy, you thought it more likely that he would flip town. He did.

Yes, and? With the speed it picked up I had a feeling that he was going to flip town. He did. That doesn't change the fact that he was scummy. That doesn't change the fact the only way I would have known, for sure, would be to kill him. I'm not of the "ohh let the scummy players live" mentality. Never have, never will.

You went out of context with my remark. What you said came off to me as not caring about him in the least.

I went out of context? You implied that I was admitting being scummy.. when I never did. In fact I pretty much say the opposite and give my reasons for it.

And look at this: "There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong." YOU HAMMERED TOWN WELL AWARE OF THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH. DESPITE HIS SCUMMY ACTIONS, YOU SAW THE ODDS AS KNIGHT OF CYDONIA BEING TOWN, BUT KILLED HIM ANYWAY.

You're not good at caps. Also not good at bolds apparently. Good thing we dont have sirens.

First off, I hammered a scummy player - he was not known as town until after the hammer. So don't play the "KILLING TOWN OMG" business with it.

Despite his scummy actions, I saw a distinct possiblity that he was town, yes. Does that mean I was correct? No. How could I prove I was correct? By the lynch. What did I do? Lynch him.

God, one of the reasons why I thought he might be town was the speed people climbed on that lynch. Guess, just GUESS, who one of them was?

Take away the bandwagon hopping and reactionary posts of mine that you speak of, compare my actions to yours that day, and it will.

"Take away all the extra bad stuff I did and compare the actions of a singular day and there WILL be a similarity"

However, that has no bearing on the fact I have said you have been doing it all game. I didn't make that up. Also, and I cant believe have to say this, removing all the extra scummy things you did that day OF COURSE there will be similarities. It is those SELFSAME things that you are asking to REMOVE that ARE scummy for that day.

You need to be more specific than that.

Sorry, not spoonfeeding you another avenue of discussion that is going to have no bearing on today for you to squeak out of. Its not rocket science and anyone who gives a care can find exactly what I'm talking about.

Not that I don't care, but that I haven't figured out which one. I've defended this already.

Why are you holding on to this? This is what set off the final red flag to being with and you're still doing it. Just because they are fighting doesn't mean ONE HAS TO BE SCUM. You are being willfully obtuse and it hurts.

Of course, considering you are scum, I guess I should be thankful for it.

[SpyreX]

Sharp and concise. I like it. It is persuasive and I can't wait to see what Manito has to say about it.

However, me being as stubborn as you llama - whats you're feelings about the SC / SpyreX throwdown. Personally, I would MUCH rather have this resolved today so its not dangling if we screw up at lylo (although I really doubt it).

I'd like YOU to go through and poke some holes in what I'm saying about SC. Arm and TSPN too.

[SpyreX]

I was a little on tilt. Loosey-goosey.

I just can't get past the focus on Manito / LF all day until people start in on me then jumping on ready to go. The FL business is a nice touch.

He's been a pro-grade hopper which if the game was going WELL is bad enough - when its town after town its very suspect.

The only reason I'm leary about Manito is that IF you're wrong tomorrow will -probably- be SC and IF I'm wrong then guaranteed they'll want one of us for the lylo fail - and I dont want that. (OHH NOES I AM CHAIN LYNCHING AND TALKING LIKE A NORMAL TO BOTH ARMLX AND LLAMA WHAT CAN IT MEAN)

[SpyreX]

Yes, I am for real, he-who-refuses-to-acknowledge-other-people's-existence.

What does this even mean? I'm not acknowledging you? Or?

Whatever.

Excellent retort.

Just so people who are watching the play-by-play remember. You jumped on me for not giving KoC enough time to defend himself. My reply was that he had plenty of time. Your response to this is.. whatever.

Plus other things.

Cite. Show.

Then why did you mention Knight of Cydonia possibly being town in the first place?

Because I thought there was the distinct possibility that he was town?
Enough that I mentioned it. However, not enough for me to stop said hammer for multiple reasons that I've listed over and over again.

Your response implied your admission.

OHHH. Wait, nope. Still not seeing it. I explained why I did it - not because it was inherently scummy but to show WHY I did it.

I wouldn't be hadn't you discussed Knight of Cydonia being town before the mod revealed his alignment.

So is it scummy that I called FS scum and I was wrong? Or... does that change one whit about it. My not having the without a shadow of a doubt scumvibes doesn't mean I'm not going to hammer. Srsly.

Tell me how testing whether someone is town or not by lynching them is pro-town.

I can play this game!
Tell me how letting scummy players live until lylo because they MIGHT be town is pro-town.
Tell me how not building a case on anyone is pro-town.
Tell me how vote jumping between wagons is pro-town.
Tell me how tunnel-visioning is pro-town.
Tell her about it. Tell her everything you feel.

You, since you made no objection to the speed of his wagon before the hammer.

Yes. I thought he might be town because I sped onto the wagon before I hammered yet I was the hammer... wait, that doesn't make any sense, now does it.

"Screw StrangerCoug's case on me; I don't care about town lynches."

You're still bad at this. Keep trying though.

Funny thing is that, with a small moficiation and separating those two statements that are not conditional with each other they're both right. Lets try it adding one word: bad.

"Screw StrangerCoug's bad case on me."
"I dont care about bad town (player) lynches." - With the addendum that it is not lylo yet.

I am of the separate chaff from the wheat variety of player. Playing scummy is grounds for death. I'm not, especially early on, gonna bite my nails about it - I am going to kill them every chance I get. I do not want them around to screw up the late game. So, no, if they've done things that I find scummy I will lynch them.

BUT, I digress. Back to why I made my original quote of how silly your statement was. We'll play it like a math problem. (Although I am simplifying it)

The Scum Equation.

Variables:

A. Consistency.
B. Vote Hopping.
C. Absence of Building a Case.
D. Poor Reasons for Votes

I am saying A(B + C + D) = You Being Scum.
You are accusing me of D.
But, then, you said: "Take away the bandwagon hopping and reactionary posts of mine that you speak of, compare my actions to yours that day, and it will."
So, we're now only looking at a single day. So that would scratch A.
We're eliminating your hopping votes. There goes B.
We're getting rid of reactionary posts. I'm feeling nice so I'll get rid of C.

So, you are saying D = D! SEE ITS THE SAME.
Now, aside from the fact that D in this instance does NOT equal D... by eliminating all the other variables and trying to say the case I have on you is the same as the one you "have" on me.. is being willfully obtuse.

Which leads me to:

You cannot accuse me of following along with Knight of Cydonia's lynch specifically without taking into account that you followed suit for the same reason why I cannot accuse LlamaFluff of being bossy without taking into account that I agreed with why he was so.

IF I was saying your

actions around the KoC lynch

were the ONLY time you'd done this..maybe there'd be a point to this line of argument. However, I am saying you've consistently done this and, in the consistency, lies the scumminess with it. So, shout D=D all the live long day. It doesn't and more to the point it has no real bearing on anything.

I think I've been too nice too long.. must..give...smarm.

One, I need reminders. Two, denying the town discussion is scummy.

Good thing I'm not denying the

town

discussion! Ahh thats better. As for reminders, just read its right there.

[SpyreX]

Sigh, now I'm going to really HAVE to reread the manito/llama bidness. Its hard.

On a happy note.

Searching for a replacement for killa seven.

<3

[SpyreX]

I'm gonna go ahead and reply to some of these cases because getting to see them again all together..is awesome.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.

This is a lame defense and comes off to me as you thinking forbiddanlight was scum merely because she was confusing.

I dont think that people who really read what he said can say he thinks she scum because she's confusing. Its pretty clear that he saying that leaving her will confuse the issue for the rest of the game.

It's basically a pile of one-liners. Only once do you refer to a genuine post you've made, and your so-called case is just a shoddy, one-liner PBPA. That's not a case, that's a PBPA, and trying to pass it off as one is a lie. And only scum need to lie.
LYNCH ALL LIARS

The last time I checked, lynch all liars does not apply merely because you disagree over what something is. Major self-contradictions (e.g. claiming to be a vigilante, then a vanilla townie) will usually trigger LAL, and there's probably other things that will set it off too, but I see this as a stretch and an excuse.

A joke is a joke, for pete's sake.

FaerieLord, that is the crux of my whole case against you - no town should ever actively seek to lynch town, or have a motive to lynch town - as LlamaFluff said, its still one more body in the Mafia's way. By admitting you wanted to lynch forbiddan as town, you merely confirm your scumminess.

Unless I misquoted you (and you should really avoid posting your opinions in other people's quote boxes, even if you set them off—harder to read and make out what's yours or not), this and the first set of quotes don't make sense together to me. Could you please explain?

Again, not sure whats so hard about this. KoC thought FL was scum, but in the event she was town, her loss wouldn't be a bad one because she was playing badly.

Relooking at the above, especially considering KoC was getting heat from other avenues, really just reinforces my you jumping on bandwagons. If you REALLY want I'll do the same your other set but I'm still groggy from a long night so dont feel like repeating myself.

Your turn.

After KoC's amazing scummove there I may be willing to shift FL back tomorrow for KoC - I dont think FS is going to be negotiable.

Other players I'd be more than happy to give the rope to:
1.) FL - for reasons stated over and over again (and notice the absence of real talking so far today).
2.) KoC - he's been diggin' a hole and I could really see the lynch.
3.) K7 - K7, enough said. I think the time will come soon enough when he's going to have to go.

We've got, I think, three people we all suspect: FS, FL, Koc. (And I do K7, but I digress). Regardless of the order or what, its safe to say we're going to be pushing heavily on those three and instead of being cross-working on lynches as a unit well, helps.

I can dig not "setting" them up but unless someone decides to really up the scum-level I will not shed a tear on FS, FL, KoC, or K7 at this point. If there's not one scum in there (much less 2) i'd be really, really surprised.

Ok...

I know I promised a reread, but honestly, I haven't had it in me for this game. This one is slogging along and it needs a boot.

Look at the last few pages - we've spent more time and actual effort figuring out FaerieLords alignment than actually looking for scum. Or doing anything. Hell, at this point I miss the unwarranted finger-pointing and whatever else.

So, if I really really need to, I'll do something by ohh Fridayish on at least two of my suspects. But, in the meantime lets DO something constructive like just up and turbolynch someone. Anyone. At this point it could be me and I wouldn't care - some would be bad lynches but really I wouldn't even try and stop it.

We need to do something to knock ourselves out of the doldrums.

So no I didn't build a huge case on KoC. His actions that day were retarded and I made it clear I'd hammer anyone to get the game moving. I DID.

No, it is not scummy you were wrong about Firestarter being scum because you dedicated a post to his scumminess and convinced us to hammer him. You did no such post on Knight of Cydonia—you simply went "Yeah, he's scummy, and I'm not worried about the quick wagon" and proceeded to put him out of his misery even though the wagon gave you reason to believe that Knight of Cydonia was town.

I cant believe I didn't catch this before. I hammered KoC and the next DAY I said that with the speed of the wagon I wasn't suprirsed.
And stop with the "KoC was town" - the wagon

gave me reason to suspect he

might

not be scum.

Those are not the same things. I do not feel at this moment explaining the deep psychological difference, but its there.

Get out of tunnel vision land.

Says the black hole to the kettle.

Llama, I know you're startin to get the itch. You can see that hammer sitting there, whispering to you, telling you sweet nothings. Give into it. GIVE INTO THE POWER.

[SpyreX]

thanks for being a helper. I'm REALLY GLAD you came back

[SpyreX]

<3 SSF again. I thought you were playin with my emotions there

[SpyreX]

I believe I've implied that my sense of humor is not the best, and I actually interpreted that post as an intent to get the person lynched for lying.

And the first part? Its not just misinterpreting a joke or misreading what they are saying - its the fact the misinterpretations allow you to toss on a vote with justification.

1. I'm not going to bother with FaerieLord unless you want to.
2. Have we covered this "hole", so we don't run around in circles?
3. You're still being vague here, and you have refused to answer me about why you suspect killa seven.

This was brought up to show that yes, in fact, I did have reason to suspect KoC.

But, sure. I'll bite.

1.) Read what I've said all along about FL. I am not regurgitating that here again right now.
2.) "...So let me get this straight: we vote FS, lynch him, and then CF et al will throw their weight behind the FL case, and possibly the K7 case as well?
That's a fair enough offer, I suppose. Firestarter has been getting along quite nicely whilst teh FL and K7 cases dominated, mostly, but the case against him is good enough. I'd probably have gone for him after K7 and FL, maybe put him joint third with Llama... I'll play along, on the guarantee of that FL lynch.
unvote; Vote Firestarter"
That was the beginning of the end. It was far too opportunistic to ignore.
3.) Maybe its the multiple pages I spent arguing with arm about how K7 contributes as much as a fart in the wind and it serves as an awesome way to just keep draggin' along and explain away any and all chance of being nightkilled. Something like that.

Says the madman who is trying to cut off discussion on me in
favor of my mislynch.

Mad like a fox.

Ok, I know the hammer is scary. It can be a frightening thing. You wonder to yourself "am I going to be losing this game" - the answer is no, young lads! Buck up to the table!

I've given you every reason to be behind this -
If you are town and you think SC is scum, well.
If you are town and you think I am scum pushing a mislynch I've handed myself to you on a platter!
If you are scum and SC is scum, why not score some town points with a bus!
If you are scum and I am scum, well we get to eat one more townie before I burn!
If you are scum and we're both town.. come on, I've given plenty of escape routes tomorrow!
If you are scum and we're both scum - help a brotha out by gettin one of the hombres killed to move it forward and make the other look clean!

So, be a hero, whomever you are. Just say you agree with me and drop that sweet, sweet hammer! Time is running out, only YOU can be a bad enough dude to save the president.

[SpyreX]

I like how its me and not the players playing like scummy scum scums.

I want BLOOD. GIVE IT TO ME.

[SpyreX]

Thats fine and can be dealt with after SC bleeds.

[SpyreX]

I've given too much Llama. This has to happen. I am the Alpha. You need to be my Omega.

[SpyreX]

I know, but I've staked my very LIFE on this.

Besides, think of the wonderful ball of yarn that starts to untwine either way based on this.

[SpyreX]

Because I've offered myself up if I'm wrong.

So.. if SC is town, the scum are salivating at the chance for a full day of mislynches.

However, he's scum, so they're just playing at it trying to keep him alive.

[SpyreX]

Yes, ALL the mafia are a part of the 5 necessary votes. You've figured it out.

Give me this hammer. GIVE ME THE POWER.

[SpyreX]

It is because of things like this why I am so confident about the lynch.

Honestly, I laid out my case. I feel solid about it.

IF I am wrong about SC and after I am murdered tomorrow - there's plenty you can go on with some of the awesome that salivated at this (I'm callin you out ThAdmiral).

However, nothing can be known until after the flip. So, we must hammer.

[SpyreX]

This should be good!

[SpyreX]

* Misrepresentation of my stance on the three of you despite it shifting quite a bit.
* Pretending that just because I suspected him doesn't mean I vote him.
* Calling my vote threat a joke, which goes along with the above. (Not really relevant to this game, but if you think all threats on the Internet are empty threats, then you don't read/listen to the news enough.)
* Overall thinking I'm not serious.
* Tunnel vision. When I told him that denying the town discussion was scummy, he responded by saying he was glad he wasn't "denying the town discussion", bolding being his, which is where I'm getting this accusation from.

Three? I think I've been pretty clear that you're whole "I'm lynching one of them" was functionally retarded when based on the "WELL ONE OF THEM PROBABLY ISNT TOWN" without ever giving reasons for it. If I'm the third, the fact you didn't jump ship until the merry men started voting for me, well.

Suspected me for what? Nothing up there even begins to be "scummy" - in fact, it reads like a whole mess of OMGUS.

Threatening to vote is a joke. Why even bother? It, again, is stupid.

Ohh, you are serious. THIS """CASE""" is the joke. It is so bad it can only be responded to as a joke.

My bold is saying you are scum, swish.

But hey, OP has jumped ship. Get one more and I'll hammer myself I swear to god. Then I'll flip town and they can kill you or ThAdmiral or, hell, do whatever you want.

For the record, every person voting for me should give a real explanation why. It'll be cute - not as cute as this, but cute.

LF - you're town.
TSPN - town.
Arm - town.
Manito - most likely town.

REMEMBER THIS. LIVE IT. LEARN IT.

Get them votes and hang me, or kill SC, whichever. I'm not dealing with this a-grade work from the lot of you either way much longer.

Just admit to yourself, if you are in fact town, SC, that this was about the most pathetic case of self-preservation this game. If you're scum (and the merry men aren't) bravo. I really, REALLY, doubt thats the case however.