Micro 887: the coaLITion [game over]

[Skygazer]

VC 1.07 Coalitions: Hectic (5): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Hectic, NC 39, RC most awesomest EspressoPatronum (4): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Hectic, Spangled Alchemist21 (3): Alchemist21, EspressoPatronum, RC most awesomest Gamma Emerald (2): Gamma Emerald, RC most awesomest NC 39 (2): NC 39, RC most awesomest RC most awesomest (2): Alchemist21, RC most awesomest Clemency (0): Lil Uzi Vert (0): Spangled (0): Lynch: Lil Uzi Vert (2): Hectic, Gamma Emerald Spangled (1): RC most awesomest Not Voting (6): EspressoPatronum, NC 39, Clemency, Lil Uzi Vert, Spangled, Alchemist21 With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to reach a majority. Day one ends in (expired on 2019-09-12 18:00:00).

[RC most awesomest]

hi alch you scum?

[Spangled]

VC 1.07 Coalitions: Hectic (5): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Hectic, NC 39, RC most awesomest EspressoPatronum (3): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Spangled Alchemist21 (3): Alchemist21, EspressoPatronum, RC most awesomest Gamma Emerald (2): Gamma Emerald, RC most awesomest NC 39 (2): NC 39, RC most awesomest RC most awesomest (2): RC most awesomest, Alchemist21 Clemency (0): Lil Uzi Vert (0): Spangled (0): Lynch: Lil Uzi Vert (2): Hectic, Gamma Emerald Spangled (1): RC most awesomest Not Voting (6): EspressoPatronum, NC 39, Clemency, Lil Uzi Vert, Spangled, Alchemist21 With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to reach a majority. Day one ends in (expired on 2019-09-12 18:00:00).

Uh... Sky, that VC reckons that day 1 ends in 7 and a half days.

[Spangled]

VC 1.07 Coalitions: Hectic (5): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Hectic, NC 39, RC most awesomest EspressoPatronum (3): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Spangled Alchemist21 (3): Alchemist21, EspressoPatronum, RC most awesomest Gamma Emerald (2): Gamma Emerald, RC most awesomest NC 39 (2): NC 39, RC most awesomest RC most awesomest (2): RC most awesomest, Alchemist21 Clemency (0): Lil Uzi Vert (0): Spangled (0): Lynch: Lil Uzi Vert (2): Hectic, Gamma Emerald Spangled (1): RC most awesomest Not Voting (6): EspressoPatronum, NC 39, Clemency, Lil Uzi Vert, Spangled, Alchemist21 With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to reach a majority. Day one ends in (expired on 2019-09-12 18:00:00).

Uh... Sky, that VC reckons that day 1 ends in 7 and a half days.

Sorry; missed the post informing us that we had four more days than before.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, actually, doesn’t really feel the same to me as the last game we were in; tonally they actually feel a bit weirdly different from how I remember them.

Want mr to talk about this, because I can def talk about it and explain what is different

[Spangled]

Gamma, actually, doesn’t really feel the same to me as the last game we were in; tonally they actually feel a bit weirdly different from how I remember them.

Want mr to talk about this, because I can def talk about it and explain what is different

Yes, I would.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well I was a cop that game and that affected how I played in that game. I'm not here. Like you saw Persivul poking me for bring different, he was right even though he was scum.

[Spangled]

i think it's a significant mistake for anyone to have spangled in their coalition right now and i feel like doing so is literally making the classic mistake that loses towns games: overlooking the silently scummy people coasting by in favor of focusing on the outrageous or distracting things.

I would like to offer an opinion, here — that

maybe

some of the fairly inactive people could be scum here, doing the same thing you’re accusing me of doing; coasting, hoping I get lynched today and generally sheeping you, hiding behind the reasoning of how you’re ‘just that awesomely good’, and then maybe letting you lynch EP, and then shooting you N2 once you’ve served your purpose. Or maybe shooting you N1 if Coffeelad is, actually, scum, or if you change your mind or something, I don’t know.
This is not me saying you’re bad at the game, either RC or nsg — but scum can use people whose reads are pointed in the wrong direction.

[Spangled]

Actually, there’s another good reason that RCMA’s probably town — the general ‘yeah, they’re town’ sort of

feeling

in the air; it’s the kind of read scum can just sheep because it has unanimously become consensus, if that makes sense.
UTRs on scum tend to be a little different, I think, although I really couldn’t tell you how — it’s just a different feeling that there would be around the gamestate, I think.

[Spangled]

i think it's a significant mistake for anyone to have spangled in their coalition right now and i feel like doing so is literally making the classic mistake that loses towns games: overlooking the silently scummy people coasting by in favor of focusing on the outrageous or distracting things.

and this isn't meant as a criticism of anyone – it took RC mentioning a scumread on spangled for me to actually read his ISO in a critical manner and realize that i was being lazy to just write him off as town. i think spangled as he's played so far is an incredibly easy person to townread: he's fairly active, he's responding to discussions in a fairly reasonable manner and he's asking people questions. it's just that when you look closer, i think it becomes apparent that everything he's doing makes a lot of sense coming from the perspective of scum!spangled.

there have been no controversial stances from him, and indeed seemingly no strong stances whatsoever. most of his responses are reasonable, yes – but none of them offer any insight into his position as someone uninformed of everyone else's alignment. in fact, i'd say it's quite the opposite:

Just so we're clear, EP isn't policy. He's taken the same line of play that scum in the vast majority of my recent games have taken with me. Try to discredit me, call me scum while avoiding engagement and discrediting townreads on me. The NSG engagement is even worse, she has a clearly established meta of efforting less as scum and there's even a hydra game of the two of us where we were scum where she literally posted once, and he's handwaving that as well. It's not an honest interaction with my slot: either his approach to this game was clearly defined before game as prevent RChydra from being in the coalition at all costs or he is scum.

It's hard for me to figure out which one is correct so I'm instead choosing to just bucket him as a non-coalition player and hope to win the game without dealing with him.

I don’t think he’s trying not to engage with you as hard as you think; if you give him time and ask him good, pointed questions, rather than deciding as the be-all and end-all on page 7 that he’s probably scum choosing to ignore larger meta in favour of his own experience of your meta — which people are going to naturally default to, especially if they haven’t actually properly meta’d you — we won’t get any kind of consensus on him for a long time, and it will probably be impossible to do so.

if you look at this quote, i think it's not a stretch at all to see it as someone who wants to contribute to a discussion in a positive manner but who has no personal stake in the meaning of the discussion (given that they already know the answer). someone who wants to be seen saying something, but who doesn't particularly care about what the other people are saying and what it means about

them

.

(basically this is a long version of saying that it kind of reminds me of TMI, although not in the scumslip sense)

i mean, where's the comment about what RC's reaction means for his alignment? where's the "i wonder if scum!RC would say this about EP"? where's the "EP has been playing towny this entire game, he's not trying to discredit you"? there's no comment about anyone's alignment at all, just a comment that RC's being unproductive and that "we won't get any kind of consensus".


-nsg

I do think RC was being unproductive, indeed counterproductive, with that line of thought — again, I didn’t see EP gunning for an RCMA lynch in a way I thought scummy.

I would disagree about ‘having no personal stake’ in the discussion; I very clearly had a stake in the discussion or I would not have asked RC to stop hounding EP in the way they were. If I were scum, I would have no reason to want that to stop; I would make no comment, indeed have no reason to want to appear to be contributing to the discussion in a positive manner — after all, there were (and are) a few people pretty much flat out ignoring this particular discussion (Alchemist being, I think, the best example).

TL;DR: me!scum want counterproductive, but me!town want no counterproductive. other scum ignore counterproductive; they not make comment

[Hectic]

VC 1.06 Coalitions: Hectic (5): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Hectic, NC 39, RC most awesomest EspressoPatronum (3): EspressoPatronum, Gamma Emerald, Spangled Alchemist21 (3): Alchemist21, EspressoPatronum, RC most awesomest NC 39 (2): NC 39, RC most awesomest Gamma Emerald (2): Gamma Emerald, Spangled RC most awesomest (1): RC most awesomest Clemency (0): Lil Uzi Vert (0): Spangled (0): Lynch: Lil Uzi Vert (2): Hectic, Gamma Emerald Not Voting (7): RC most awesomest, EspressoPatronum, NC 39, Clemency, Lil Uzi Vert, Spangled, Alchemist21 With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to reach a majority. Day one ends in (expired on 2019-09-12 18:00:00).

didn't Espresso put me down as a heal?

They did! Fixing it now.

- Skygazer

I don’t even know if throwing around lynch votes will be useful until the Coalition is decided on since we can’t lynch before the Coalition is decided.

i think it's still good go throw around votes to show who we suspect and intend to lynch after we decide on the coalition, it'll be useful later on as well when we look back at wagons and potential bussing

also we can still pressure scum with votes which is always good

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

weakest entrance thus far imo

Hectic do you still believe what you said about applying pressure with your votes? Do you think your LUV vote is still good?

yes and probably not, if he's not currently reading the thread

VOTE: Spangled

[Hectic]

haven't really properly read the rest of the thread yet, will probably do so in the evening

[Alchemist21]

hi alch you scum?

Of course not.

[EspressoPatronum]

Just so we're clear, EP isn't policy. He's taken the same line of play that scum in the vast majority of my recent games have taken with me.

This is almost the exact line of reasoning I used on my scum read of you and you nearly wrote me out of the game because of it.

I disliked your reaction to my read because it was either scummy or petty, and neither is good for town.

Try to discredit me, call me scum while avoiding engagement and discrediting townreads on me.

Please show me where I haven't engaged.

The NSG engagement is even worse, she has a clearly established meta of efforting less as scum and there's even a hydra game of the two of us where we were scum where she literally posted once, and he's handwaving that as well. It's not an honest interaction with my slot: either his approach to this game was clearly defined before game as prevent RChydra from being in the coalition at all costs or he is scum.
[...]

I'd say my engagement with nsg has been pretty good, actually. That's mostly because she was willing to engage back.

Now that you're back to acknowledging me, we can start to move forward here.

[EspressoPatronum]

i dislike it when people ask the generic question "what are your reads" without any seeming deeper purpose

Why? Do you have examples of scum doing it?

I don't know if it's a scum thing more than just an unhelpful town thing most times.

From what I've read I'm guides and such, better questions include:
- what is your read on [specific player]?
- what do you think of [thing that happened]?
- do you agree with X line of thinking?

Open-ended questions with room for the person to speak more to

why

they think something, rather than what they think.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Hectic, I forget where you asked me this, but I can't find it in my quick skim.

I think your decision to remove your RVS coalition vote shows (1) a measure of indecision and (2) a willingness to compromise. Both are town traits.

On the second point, your discussion with RCMA and your eventual coalition vote of RCMA is a further example of this.

I'm feeling very good about town Hectic.

[EspressoPatronum]

I liked Spangled's posts, but his town reads of me might be biasing my thought process. I'll take a look at his ISO when I can. This week is pretty busy for me, so no promises on my timeliness.

I'm not feeling as good about my Gamma coalition read anymore. As above, I'll look into it more when I can.

[NC 39]

instead of complaining about the deadline why not try to solve?

[RC most awesomest]

I would disagree about ‘having no personal stake’ in the discussion; I very clearly had a stake in the discussion or I would not have asked RC to stop hounding EP in the way they were. If I were scum, I would have no reason to want that to stop; I would make no comment, indeed have no reason to want to appear to be contributing to the discussion in a positive manner — after all, there were (and are) a few people pretty much flat out ignoring this particular discussion (Alchemist being, I think, the best example).

TL;DR: me!scum want counterproductive, but me!town want no counterproductive. other scum ignore counterproductive; they not make comment

i disagree – i think that whatever benefit to town could potentially arise out of your attempt to prevent something seen as counterproductive, the gains you would make as scum in appearing to be playing pro-town would outweigh them. perhaps especially so in a setup like this where being townread is of the upmost importance, rather than just going under the radar.

I liked Spangled's posts, but his town reads of me might be biasing my thought process. I'll take a look at his ISO when I can. This week is pretty busy for me, so no promises on my timeliness.

I'm not feeling as good about my Gamma coalition read anymore. As above, I'll look into it more when I can.

you said that we could start to move forward, but you've skipped over perhaps the most substantial posts that i've made this entire game and all of the surrounding discussion.

you're not exactly making a great case for your engagement with me being "pretty good", as you say.

instead of complaining about the deadline why not try to solve?

who are you talking to?


-nsg

[NC 39]

LUV is still scum.

RC is town.

HURT: LUV

HEAL: RC

not a big fan of Gamma randomly trying to apply pressure to me.

Don't like how Alchem is ignoring me as I think that often comes from scum.

And still, dislike Spangled.

but thats too many scum reads. So I'm wrong on 2 of those 4.

HEAL: RC most awesomest, Hectic, EspressoPatronum, NC 39 is a rock-solid coalition but I'm hesitant to add Clemency as some of his posts pinged me earlier.

So basically, who are the other town between Clem, Gamma, Alchem, and Spangled and I guess LUV in case I'm wrong but I don't think I am?

[NC 39]

who are you talking to?

anyone that's moaning about the deadline.

[RC most awesomest]

I would like to offer an opinion, here — that maybe some of the fairly inactive people could be scum here, doing the same thing you’re accusing me of doing; coasting, hoping I get lynched today and generally sheeping you, hiding behind the reasoning of how you’re ‘just that awesomely good’, and then maybe letting you lynch EP, and then shooting you N2 once you’ve served your purpose. Or maybe shooting you N1 if Coffeelad is, actually, scum, or if you change your mind or something, I don’t know.
This is not me saying you’re bad at the game, either RC or nsg — but scum can use people whose reads are pointed in the wrong direction.

inactive scum lose day one in this setup, if past results are in any way indicative of the future.

i'm not sure i understand what exactly you're trying to impart upon me here? mind elaborating?

-nsg

[RC most awesomest]

who are you talking to?

anyone that's moaning about the deadline.

you know that recognizing that this setup was really (in my opinion) not mean to be played with 7 day deadlines and scumhunting are not mutually exclusive things to do, right?

[RC most awesomest]

-nsg

[RC most awesomest]

happy scumday alchemist

-nsg