Normal 222: Black Versus White Mafia (Endgame)

[The Fonz]

What up. About to go to work. I've read about a third of the game so far, I'll comment in earnest tonight.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: Rick Dalton

Guys, lynch all liars. Seriously.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: Rick Dalton

Guys, lynch all liars. Seriously.

Any comments other than taking the easy road?
You replaced Creature, who had high scum equity. So taking the easy road right off the bat with no other comments doesn't sit well with me.

Unclear how this is the easy road, but whatever. I don't care what's easy. I care that people who lie about their role PMs basically always flip scum. There's a reason I use to have LYNCH ALL LIARS as my fucking signature.

Guys, lynch all liars. Seriously.

That would be a bad idea. It would get quite a few players to be mislynched all the time (myself, FL, Jay, Clem.. to name a few). We all are notorious TOWN liars.

Eh, town should never lie about roles and night actions with very few exceptions. It's not my problem if y'all play town as a scum role. But imagine for a second you are enough of a derp to fakeclaim tracker. You are CCed by someone who says your results are fake. You immediately call them scum. That doesn't make sense. If you're town, and someone has the balls to CC you, chances are they're very likely town, right? OTOH, you're scum. What's your motive? Discredit at all costs.

VOTE: The Fonz

I think Creature lurking was NAI (he did say somewhere he was taking a leave). However, Fonz push on RD doesn't feel genuine. I think he is more likely to actually try and make a case as town (one short-lives experience with him). I would have expected him to engage RD more if he did SR him.

Eh, this is bizarre. What swung me 100% into locking onto Cyrus in Don't Remember, A50? It was him lying about his role. What did I say, while doing so? Lynch all liars. Did I expand on that? No, because lying about your role should be your head on plate ASAP, and it's really not a complicated tell. I'm not going to waffle when the best town play is so obvious.

And... engage with him? You don't argue with scum. You talk

about

them, and how they're scum, to other people whose votes you might need. I don't need to draw out anything from him, to convince me he's scum. He lied about his role.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: The Fonz

I'm going to place Fonz at L-2, so I'm going to ask you, is there any other reason you suspect Rick, or is there any reason that you just voted for him with the "Lynch All Liars" quote?

As for everyone else, I'll get to that as soon as I can.

I mean, lying alone is a strong enough scumtell that I'm 100% happy to lynch on that alone. But see the above: His play doesn't feel like town faking "for reactions" because when he gets CCed, he jumps straight to assuming it's a 1v1 and trying to discredit the person accusing him.

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: That's literally how Rick Dalton play as either alignment.

UNVOTE:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, but trust me when I say it a thing on MS to never believe a claim from Flavor Leaf (Risk Dalton's main) or Bambi Jay/Elsa Jay (another player who uses 2 famous alts) and never "trust" A50's claims on D1.

Right. In which case, at what point do you start treating FL/RD's claims as genuine? If you just assume he is always lying about his role, doesn't that just hand him an unacceptable amount of leeway when he's scum? More specifically. RD claimed to have confirmed VD's claim. Isn't that absolutely terrible play if Rick is town and does't know VD's alignment? And doesn't VD's decision to counterclaim RD suggest that he very much was treating Rick's claim as serious?

[The Fonz]

You back tracked because Fonz says that’s literally his meta. Why is that AI at all then?

It is his meta. I only played with him for one game day before (the game got scratched), and when while I was pushing a scumster based on a slip he indeed wasn't convinced it's a slip and didn't vote the scumster until he contradicted himself and was thus caught lying.

Fonz reminded me this was his way of scum hunting, and that he doesn't engage scum after he had deduced they're scum, but rather promotes for their lynch among the other players.

I said earlier that Creature's absence was NAI because I know he planned on taking a leave, so my vote on Fonz was solely founded on him not engaging you, and as he got me corrected on what I had thought would be his town play I no longer have a valid reason to vote the slot. He is now back to NAI and I should evaluate his play from this moment on.

Cool. Who's scum then?

[The Fonz]

@Fonz: That's literally how Rick Dalton play as either alignment.

UNVOTE:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, but trust me when I say it a thing on MS to never believe a claim from Flavor Leaf (Risk Dalton's main) or Bambi Jay/Elsa Jay (another player who uses 2 famous alts) and never "trust" A50's claims on D1.

Right. In which case, at what point do you start treating FL/RD's claims as genuine? If you just assume he is always lying about his role, doesn't that just hand him an unacceptable amount of leeway when he's scum? More specifically. RD claimed to have confirmed VD's claim. Isn't that absolutely terrible play if Rick is town and does't know VD's alignment? And doesn't VD's decision to counterclaim RD suggest that he very much was treating Rick's claim as serious?

I see your point, but I request that you see mine. I have literally seen FL fake claim Masons with a SCUM player before. I did get a bit angry post game (but we really should have lynched Creature there when FL flipped and was not a Mason), but the point is this is NOT how you catch scum!FL/RD. You need to either mechanically catch him, tone read him, or straight out get a Cop guilty on him.

I repeat.. I did see TOWN!Flavor Leaf fake Masons with Scum!Creature. I also saw him claiming all sorts of things when he was totally something else. There are many reasons he does it,

ranging from reaction testing to looking scummy enough so as not to be NK'd to even

baiting the NK

.

Like, if you look closely you'd see Chicka said she didn't take my VT claim seriously. Why? Because she knows I'd do that as a PR too. I WIFOM my role so scum can't tell whether it's best to shoot me or leave me be.

I am not saying you shouldn't play in the way you feel best though. You do you, but I will never vote RD for the case presented right now because -to me- it literally isn't scum indicative of him at all.

Yawn. The bolded are all the hackneyed, discredited arguments for lying as town that have been rebutted a million times. But the theory talk can wait.

Have you ever actually caught FL as scum? Because what you're describing sounds like a playstyle designed to be scummy as town to make people dismiss scumtells as scum. If you're going to dismiss the greatest scumtell there is, being caught in a role-related lie, what are you looking for? Give me a Rick read that's not based on his claim.

Pre-edit:

Why did you town read what is now the chickadee slot based off mod error, but still suspect Foster? IMHO, Foster is either town, or is directly lying about mod interactions. If he's directly lying about mod interactions (changing his result from vanilla to no result) then that's enough of a dick move to blacklist for, and I've no reason to think he's that level of dick. If he's not lying and the mod really has changed his result, to me that basically confirms him as really a cop (and VD as really ascetic). I also felt reading through that he comes across as more relaxed here than he did as scum in ICRTNOTG.

[The Fonz]

OK. What's your Vorkuta read now?

[The Fonz]

Damn! I thought HE was the Role Cop. OK? (Did you literally have to ask about VORKUTA if all?)

Well you voted him earlier and didn't list him at all in your possible suspect list. That suspect list was two slots that were replaced in the last day, an undercontributor in Croag, a claimed cop, and one read that I have no real issue with in mumbles. Damn straight I'm going to poke around that. Quite aside from this whole role business, I've got a fair few decent town reads so yes, I'm going to be pressing on things that seem off outside that group. And this was a useful response.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: Rick Dalton

Guys, lynch all liars. Seriously.

Anything else to comment on in the game? What is your reads on everyone else? Because this being your only post after catching up is incredibly scummy.

Not really. Someone's been caught in a lie; that is far and away the most important issue of the day. Posting a load of other stuff that's much less important would dramatically increase the noise to signal ratio. I tend to suspect people who do that: it's a "Look town" rather than help-town move.

[The Fonz]

Someone's been caught in a lie;

Based on what everyone has said of Rick, do you still believe he is scum, or is it more of a PL?

Ah, my sweet summer child. It's both. I don't lynch liars because my instincts tell me they're scum: I lynch liars because in spite of my instincts, liars are nearly always scum. There's a thread in MD from back when I played regularly on this: if 60% of people who lie about their roles are scum, you have to be able to hit something like 90% certainty rate in telling between town and scum liars. I'm pretty sure well over 60% of liars are scum, and after five years away I'm definitely not hitting 90% accuracy.

That said, my instincts also say he's scum. Viz:

1) CCed fakeclaims are significantly more likely to be scum than ones which are only found out when admitted;
2) The very fact he drew a CC and managed to survive shows the scum utility of the move, while the town utility is unclear;
3) He called you scum for CCing him, which in spite of people saying he's a frequent town liar, is not something I've found in a relatively quick meta dig, and looks for all the world like scum trying to discredit a town role calling him out.
4) He suddenly "remembers" that Creature was a scummy all along when I attack him, despite claiming to be good at reading Creature, and to not have raised this while creature was in the game.
5) He relies in defence on lying being his meta, and yet despite acknowledging that what I'm doing here is what I normally do as town, comes up with a reachy theory about how I'm scum doing what I normally do as town to get a mislynch. This fails occam's razor, hard.

[The Fonz]

I think scum just bussed because they thought he was going down and now they’re just waiting to see if it passes.

Let’s just kill him. He’s gonna be stuck on nothing but the LAL mentality anyways.

The brazenness is actually quite entertaining.

Rick 1322, "Fonz is scum because he's pushing on bad, not scummy play."

1326, "We should lynch Fonz anyway because he's going to continue playing badly even if he's town."

Rick is exactly the kind of cocky scumbag who thinks he can play in a way that draws out two investigative role claims and just shrug it off.

[The Fonz]

First of all, if I were scum, how is that cocky?

If I were scum, like you’re pushing, you wouldn’t be pushing that as brazenness.

You say I’m a cocky scumbag who “thinks” he can play in a way to draw out 2 investigatives. Wouldn’t that be good scum play to do that, and you’re pushing it like that would be a bad thing

Nah, this is misrep, I think he's playing well as scum. I think Rick believes he's essentially able to talk himself out of anything, so might as well just do the obvious things to help his side. I'm not even sure he's wrong, given how today is going. If he's playing town, he's playing badly, and I don't see the thought progression. Like, the fakeclaim here seems insufficiently flashy almost for the FL town meta I've read. I can see the thought process in fakeclaiming mason and seeing how that person reacts. I can see how an IC fakeclaim generates reactions. I don't see how claiming tracker, then claiming a confirmatory tracking on an already-claimed player is the kind of stir-shit-up play he's painting it as similar to. Nor do I see him forming any reads off the basis of it.

and if you were town, from your perspective, the word “Thinks” shouldn’t have been there if you actually thought I was scum. The word “thinks” being there proves that you are out pushing a mislynch with a case that fits your narrative of lynch all liars on a “cocky scumbag who shrugs things off”.

This makes literally no sense.

I'm fine with massclaim since it's basically already started. We gonna popcorn?

[The Fonz]

Also now the Fonz is replacing. Seriously what is this game???

.

Wait, what? Still here. Still want Rick dead. Still awaiting my turn in the mass claim.

[The Fonz]

Like I have no idea why the mod is trying to replace me when I haven't requested replacement, nor have I been prodded.

[The Fonz]

VT. Dalton.

[The Fonz]

Letting A50 claim last is just But ok

Nah. It isn't. I'll explain later.

That said, I don't like the idea of letting the game stall out again waiting for the inactive slot to be replaced so they can claim, so unless A50 specifically thinks it would be harmful to claim before the Sno slot, I'd rather we got on with it so we can concentrate on the lynch.

[The Fonz]

Dalton. Who are you claiming to have visited?

[The Fonz]

Mumble is a FAR worse lynch than croag today

[The Fonz]

@Vorkuta: mumble is a TERRIBLE lynch today. Think carefully about his claim.

I want Dalton's 'visits' out there because it's not like scum benefit much from knowing past actions of someone who doesn't really do much (in the unlikely event he's town) but there's an obvious risk for scum rick if he's either completely making it up, or visiting scummy targets (if, as i'm currently thinking, he's a scum PR).

[The Fonz]

Almost, I claimed VT.

I'm on break at work (12hr night shift ftl). Gotta keep this short:

RD, please explain why you chose not to visit on night one.

Almost, I take it none of this makes you any more likely to vote Rick?

[The Fonz]

SS, claim immediately. We've massclaimed and you're the last one outstanding.

[The Fonz]

I have fairly extensive thoughts coming soon. First, I want Rick to put his justification for not acting night one on record.

[The Fonz]

Scum successfully got pressure off of Fonz, I’ll tell you that.

It's true, you pulling your vote off me to OMGUS the

next

guy who pushes you really helped me out there, so thanks I guess?

[The Fonz]

maybe one of A50/Vorkuta/

Something

What?? So, scum claimed MACHO Tracker Enabler???

I think this is a town claim. I definitely don't want to talk about why, though.

In the meantime, A50, I was meaning to ask. Now we've roleclaimed, why did you think Vorkuta was a rolecop? And why did you ask to go last in massclaim?

[The Fonz]

PM/Fonz/One of Roster,VD maybe one of A50/Vorkuta/Something

Possibly LUV.

this is 8/13 and papa dalton is notorious for flippity-floppity-vote-hoppity on his reads at this stage of the game, so.... sure why not.
I also hate the wall of defense posts- some of them honestly feel tacked on like an afterthought, but the last time he did it he caught scum!yourstruly so..... :/

How are you reading the PMysterious side of that exchange wrt alignment?

[The Fonz]

Right, here's the promised extensive thought. I'm now thinking Rick's either somehow town, or has painted himself into a corner as scum.

I don't think you could have reasonably expected that tracker claim to be believed, meaning it was just a dumb Boon gambit and not indicative of your alignment.

My first thought was RD is a scum power role. Maybe a roleblocker, maybe scum information role. I've been like "Why are we continually assuming a ninja when the only firm evidence of one we have is Rick's word?"

But Rick announcing no action was weird. Like, at first I'm like "LOLno why would town do that?" But maybe I can kind of see it arising from apathy/fear of the false positive. (I'd still see that as derpy, because it could confirm other town PRs/catch fakeclaimers in lies). I can't figure out why he takes that risk as scum if he'd actually visited someone.

If he's a scum power and he genuinely visited VD, he'd know he was ascetic. VD's claimed kill went through, so he'd have known if he'd failed to roleblock him, or he'd have got a non-result as an investigator. Maybe he's a scum doctor, but that doesn't make a lot of sense with only one town vig shot in the setup, nor does it really make sense to use it on a non-buddy (and in relation to A50's theory, I'm pretty sure VD is town unless it's multiball). Even if we theorise Rick is some kind of JOAT or limited shot scum PR, the ascetic issue still stands. If he's scum power and he visited anyone else, that was another unnecessary risk.

If Rick is scum without a non-kill night action, though, this visitor claim is super risky. We can insist he visits on pain of instalynch. We can demand he not target any claimed information role, and make him claim his visit in his first post every day, before any claimed info role or JOAT. We don't need to direct Chickadee, the threat should be enough.

Additionally, a BP GF makes little sense for the same reason a Mafia doc doesn't make sense, and there's no regular cop for an investigation-immune GF to be useful against. PM's idea that Rick is claiming Visitor as ninja is actually insane:

Who fakeclaims a role whose sole attribute is its ability to be tracked as a role whose sole attribute is its ability not to be tracked?

So either Rick is a mafia power role who's just nerfed himself by claiming visitor, or he's a goon who can be nailed by either of Roster and Chickadee. With a claimed bodyguard action still out there.

I'm just not sure what to do now. PMysterious was my second suspect before he pushed Rick (he's posted tons of IIoA today, I can't follow the thought process he used to attack me, and there's lingering suspicion from the ohfrz night kill). On the the other hand, I quite like that he's thrown himself into a push now. Ugh.

[The Fonz]

In the meantime, A50, I was meaning to ask. Now we've roleclaimed, why did you think Vorkuta was a rolecop? And why did you ask to go last in massclaim?

I probably confused roster with Vorky. Either that or Vorky said something (about the time RD vs VD fiasco) that sounded like he knew one of them's role. Not quite sure now and too lazy to recheck (which is why I keep notes, so as to not have to re-search for the info)

How could you have confused Vorky with Roster, when Roster had *explicitly* claimed his role by the time of that conversation?

[The Fonz]

SHUT THE F UP.

No one trusts either of you enough to direct night actions. We're not directing anyone other than Rick, and we're not directing Rick beyond "if your lying ass goes near a claimed power role or someone who 'coincidentally' ends up dead, you're getting lynched so fast you won't have time to say 'reaction test.'"

[The Fonz]

Oooh! The cat has learned to scratch. Tough guy doesn't fit your image though, Fonzie.

Guess you missed the episode where I got in a fight with Mork from Ork, huh?

I wanna lynch Darth Baker. I am a Jedi (but you already knew that, didn't you?)

OK. Why? We've got two and a half days to deadline. No-one else is voting him. Rick is the leading wagon (and for all that I'm doubting myself on him/we can cage him quite effectively if needed, I'd definitely rather lynch him than literally no-one) but doesn't seem to have any momentum.

@S_S: Sorry to put you on the spot bro, but we kind of need you to pick a wagon ASAP.

@Mod: Any news on roster? It's now four days since you prodded him, and eleven since he last posted. He's not posted anywhere on site since...

[The Fonz]

Vorkuta, A50, mumble, Darth, LUV: are you willing to lynch Rick? Because we're two days from deadline, and unless 3 of you are, I need to find a new wagon. Vote Dalton now or forever hold your peace (until tomorrow).

[The Fonz]

UNVOTE: Rick Dalton
VOTE: Croag

Can't guarantee I'll get on again before deadline. Let's make this lynch happen.

[The Fonz]

Seeing Rick

not visit

, or visit a corpse, would have confirmed him scum though.

I want to hear from mumble himself before anyone else votes.

[The Fonz]

Why would you claim visitor as ninja, a role that specifically cannot be seen visiting?

If Rick is scum it's likely he has a visiting role and someone ELSE on his team is a ninja. In that case they have nothing to fear from the tracker but a lot to gain if Rick gets false confirmed.

If there is a Ninja AND Rick is Scum, then why would they kill the one person that could have made Rick look town? It doesn't make sense in that regard.

Not to put words in SS' mouth, but I think that's his point. All this talk of ninjas is a red herring. I'll explain once mumble posts.

[The Fonz]

Ugh. So I spent an hour long train ride writing a big post on my phone, then I hit submit, it ninja'd, and then my browser crashed losing it all.

Cliffnotes version:

Mumble's claim is SO bad I'd be shockyed if any competent scumteam let him make it over the much strategically better "I protected Roster" claim. But shooting chick over the unprotectable and also nearly confirmed VD seems an unnecessary risk unless scum either knew Mumble wouldn't protect, or there's no ninja.

I don't see a world in which Rick and Mumble/replacement are both town. Leaning Mumble atm. I just remembered that the

other

BG died on a night when Rick was the only claimed PR, which makes Rick look better and Mumble slot worse.

[The Fonz]

@A50. Why would you say "If SS said to commute..." before asking, if your primary theory is they're scum together (and would therefore be able to agree on whichever is the most convenient answer)?

@S_S: What

exactly

did Mumble say about his role action to you overnight?

[The Fonz]

PP, in your opinion, how confident could SS be that Mumble wouldn't BG on the basis of their overnight discussion?

[The Fonz]

Can we lynch PM?

He's town to me though. I don't see what makes him scum to you.

PMysterious is a decent scum shout because he jumped on me with shitty reasoning when Rick snapped his fingers, only to lose his nerve later on when my wagon stalled, and basically endorsed my logic about Rick, but with a few extra laughably bad bits like Rick being a ninja. His defence of this was basically: Fonz took a stand with a clear suspicion and justification in his first post but without posting a wall, which is scummy because... ???

Also he replaced Arcfield, who was the counterwagon to a town lynch that didn't get traction, and ohmfrz died overnight, who hadn't really done anything but suspect Arc. And he's posted a lot of IIoA helpful-looking stuff.

That said, I'd be floored if scum didn't claim anything other than VT (or worse-than-VT in SS' case). And Titus and VD are basically confirmed to me. So that predisposes me to wanting to look at Rick and PP. And I stand by the "either there isn't a ninja making scum think they had to risk the Chick kill, or they knew Mumble wouldn't BG" nightkill analysis. So I'm still thinking at least one of Rick/PP has to be scum, and maybe both.

[The Fonz]

Fonz is lock scum too. He hid out hard at the end of yesterday after the Dalton vs Fonz backed away to make sure Croag got hit and not him.

This is a fucking lie.

Vote: Rick Dalton

[The Fonz]

I still don't believe that there isn't a ninja.

It's not that I believe for sure there is or there isn't. What I'm saying is that with other slots similarly confirmed looking, one of whom literally can't be bodyguarded, scum either had to have particularly strong motive to off the tracker

specifically

out of all the confirmed looking/power claim group, such that the risk of bodyguarding was worth taking, or good reason to think Chickadee wouldn't be using the BG. All the specific reasons to want the tracker dead at all costs point to Rick. The "Frame Rick" theory seems pretty high risk, low reward for a scumgroup containing neither of Rick and Mumble, no?

[The Fonz]

Fonz is lock scum too. He hid out hard at the end of yesterday after the Dalton vs Fonz backed away to make sure Croag got hit and not him.

This is a fucking lie.

Vote: Rick Dalton

No it’s not.

You were far less active the end of the day than when you were coming off.

Just because you don’t think it’s true doesn’t make it so.

I posted four times in a burst after coming off you. I then posted the following day to try to ascertain if there was any chance of rallying the people needed to actually have a shot of lynching you, and made sure I got on Saturday to vote, despite the fact I partied until four AM Friday Night Saturday morning then travelled cross country to watch my football team. Then went out again Saturday night. So the idea that I "hid" is palpable bullshit.

[The Fonz]

Wouldn't it just be "keep Rick from getting confirmed"?

You yourself said tracking him wouldn't confirm him as town. And, trust me on this, he's a tricky SOB to get pressure on regardless because of who he is. Just doesn't seem worth it.

[The Fonz]

Almost: Yeah its a funny one. There's just a hell of a lot that feels off about PM. He was very much my second suspect a lot of yesterday for all the individual scumminess reasons I list above. Then he goes for Rick, and all of a sudden he's taking a strong stand, and the timing didn't really feel bus-y. But the logic was so contradictory to his earlier push on me that it doesn't feel like a natural thought process.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: PM
sheeping papa-dalton because I don't even remember who jigglypuff replaced.
probably a cursed slot and someone scummy

Thoughts on Mumble’s slot? Didn’t you want that wagon earlier?

Who's scum, LUV?

[The Fonz]

S_S, you've defended Rick and PP/Mumble. That would imply scum didn't fakeclaim anything beyond VT from your perspective if you're town. That means all the scum would have to be in (Me) PMy, Vorkuta, DarthB, LUV, Almost.

Does that do anything for your reads on the two claimed roles with night actions? If not, even if I assumed you were reading me as scum, 3/5 of the others would have to be scum. Do you read any of them as town?

[The Fonz]

S_S, you've defended Rick and PP/Mumble. That would imply scum didn't fakeclaim anything beyond VT from your perspective if you're town.

First of all, just because I defend someone doesn't mean I townread them. And even if I did (and I do townread Rick, not sure about PP), that doesn't mean that "from my perspective" they can't be scum. I'm not gonna claim that my reads are GOOD in a game I replaced into so late.

Also, you forgot Titus. Titus could be scum.

Titus isn't scum. I'm basically certain based on the whole roster mod error business.

But this is what I'm trying to get you to think about. If neither of the power claims are scum, it means scum have done something pretty unusual with their claims, there likely isn't any scum power beyond a possible ninja and there's a really high concentration in the vanilla claims.

[The Fonz]

Why couldn't the slot be a scum rolecop or something? Or a scum tracker, for that matter.

So I was about to argue this, on the grounds that roster claimed unprompted, stuck to his guns even when CCed, and generally acted town, but you're partly right. All that shows is he had genuine role info, not that he is town. Scum tracker doesn't work though. He'd have to be some form of scum rolecop to think he knew for sure VD was not a JOAT. That's risky as hell as any other role.

[The Fonz]

I don't see a world in which Rick and Mumble/replacement are both town. Leaning Mumble atm. I just remembered that the

other

BG died on a night when Rick was the only claimed PR, which makes Rick look better and Mumble slot worse.

Glad you finally agree with me on something Rick

[The Fonz]

WAIT NO

Jesus Louisus neighborized roster, who said that he claimed to Jesus/Chemist. Chemist then spent lots of D2 being like "Trust me, Roster's a bad vote." Even if Rick was the only claimed PR in thread, Roster was claimed to the guy who died bodyguarding.

Far more likely Chemist was on Roster than Rick N2.

[The Fonz]

Also doesn't strike me as impossible chemist was targeted directly if scum took his "Roster is a bad vote" hints as possible cop results.

[The Fonz]

Far more likely Chemist was on Roster than Rick N2.

Chemist would only guard roster if he actually roster would die, though, right?

Eh, if someone's come out to you as an investigative role, you trust them, and you potentially know they're checking on a widely-suspected player that night, it's probably worth it. I'm pretty confident Roster BG + Direct target between them occupy much more probability space than Rick BG. Rick claiming the existence of a ninja would likely deprioritise him as a protect.

[The Fonz]

Rick is probably town with a correct solve.

His "solve" has you as scum?

[The Fonz]

I mean, you did literally say that, but fine. People aren't always precise in what they type.

I've being meta-ing PMyst while on a train. The IIoA and somewhat fail logic seem par for the course as town, though I've not found a scum game.

[The Fonz]

Wow - being a pedant must be fun for you.

I said the solve was correct. The solve was not just three players. I did not say that he was correct in that every player listed was scum. But sure, let's dig at minor details.

I literally said sometimes people aren't precise in what they write and it was nbd, but sure, whatever.

[The Fonz]

Probably not going to get on until Sunday, might have a one hour window Saturday afternoon UK time.

[The Fonz]

I have a theory that this game has scum in it and that they're messing with us. I'll explain later.

If you have a theory, it's best to explain it now, and not later. Granted, this post is a day old, but it's still worth putting out there. At this point, we have nothing to hide, and hiding a potential theory is concerning, to say the least.

PP is a more than acceptable lynch. I want LUV on record, DB as close to on record as you can get using a combination of votes and Vader quotes as possible before lynch though.

Titus, what's your Rick read?

[The Fonz]

Given the circumstances, it probably isn't LYLO, but it is getting close to that. 4 scum in 17 players is a lot, and considering that somehow we haven't even hit 1 despite having 8 players dead, that's highly unlikely.

WHAT? Three in thirteen is standard. You normally get around 25% scum for one scumgroup games. Why on earth would it be highly unlikely to be four in seventeen?

This is the stage in the game where we should be lynching the "Town Leaders". Though I'm actually not sure who that would be :/

VD: you're the confirmed town. The "town leader" today really ought to be you. Do you have any decently strong town reads? You were on Rick two days ago: has anything changed in your view of him, or was it just that Mumble vaulted himself into the lead yesterday then PP did nothing to bring that read into question?

[The Fonz]

And probably Darth. If Darth was Town, he would have been mislynched a long time ago for all of his fluff posting. But my theory is that his scumbuddies are keeping suspicion off of him.

Not sure that's fair. Darth hasn't had a single non-RVS vote on him all game. That doesn't mean he's town, but I don't see how scum would need to 'keep suspicion' off a player that not one town player has placed a real vote on all game, either.

[The Fonz]

Well this fucking blows.

Vault, you're GMT time zone, right? Talk to me.

[The Fonz]

Well this fucking blows.

Vault, you're GMT time zone, right? Talk to me.

That name has no meaning

What?

[The Fonz]

I am the one that hammers.

FUCK. THAT.

You've already spent the game post restricting yourself in such a way that you're basically impossible to read except via VCA and possibly how others approach you. Now you're refusing to even vote until there are enough votes on someone else to hand you the game if you're scum?

Not a chance. Vote, and vote soon.

[The Fonz]

You know I had Rick as scum when reading partway through prior to getting my role PM, and was gutted to get the scum role. Now I think I'd probably have ended up ragequitting had I been town.

[The Fonz]

prior to getting my role PM

Oh yeah, I tend to try to read at least some portion of games prior to replacing in to make sure it's not a trainwreck I'll regret joining, and/or the slot isn't obvscum.

[The Fonz]

Scumreading me is one thing, lynching me is another.

You're not wrong

Reminds me of when MagnaofIllusion and I used to throw the kitchen sink at each other every game, and neither ever got the other lynched.