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Inferno390
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Post Post #3  (isolation #0)  » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:37 am

/in
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Post Post #10  (isolation #1)  » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:24 am

In post 8, Aronis wrote:
In post 6, OkaPoka wrote:Before we get started, I think our Nomic society should establish a few founding value(s) that we can base some of our decisions on~ (like a purpose~)

My suggested values/goals for this society are:
1) Our society should keep people invested into the society for the long-term
2) Our society should promote healthy growth of playerlist
3) Our society should allow for specific people to drop out without damage

i don't think we should allow people to drop out without damage. that would hurt the healthy growth of our playerlist- instead i think anybody that drops out should get a 7 day ban from forum.mafiascum.net


Better yet, a seven-day ban from the entire internet
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Post Post #16  (isolation #2)  » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:37 am

VOTE: Nay
I move everyone in the thread has exactly one vote.
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Post Post #20  (isolation #3)  » Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:26 pm

So help me, I will spampost in this thread should that rule go through
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Post Post #37  (isolation #4)  » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:24 pm

VOTE: P001: Nay

P002:

Amend R204 to say:

“Proposals require an supermajority to pass.”
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Post Post #38  (isolation #5)  » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:26 pm

Sorry Oka, there’s a few things I’d like to change about your proposal before it goes through.
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Post Post #40  (isolation #6)  » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:58 pm

Oh I misread what absolute majority meant

I retract P002.
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Post Post #42  (isolation #7)  » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:59 pm

VOTE: P003: Yea
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Post Post #45  (isolation #8)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:48 am

VOTE: P004: Yea
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Post Post #51  (isolation #9)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:20 pm

In post 47, tris wrote:
In post 38, Inferno390 wrote:Sorry Oka, there’s a few things I’d like to change about your proposal before it goes through.

What do you want to change?



I would like it to read:

"There shall be one and only one currency, the coin. All current players upon passage of this proposal shall startbe given with 100 coins and the government shall startbe given with 1000 coins in reserve. No new coins may be created without the influence of a party with the ability to make such coins unless there is given consent by a supermajority."

And then I would like to add the clause:
"All players joining the game for the first time receive 100 coins."

VOTE: P005: Yea

P006:
A Motion is a action that can only be made by a specific player who possesses the capability to do so. The ability to perform a Motion is only given by a rule that states as such. Motions shall begin numbering at M001 and count up by each ordinal number. A Motion may be passed by absolute majority. A Motion's clause always consists of a thing that will happen when it is passed, i.e., "X will occur." Motions cannot change the rules in any way. When a motion passes, the effect stated immediately occurs.

P007:
Players will take turn in order of the player list, starting with player one and passing in descending order. Should a player not submit a proposal or motion turn within 24 hours, the player forfeits his turn and play passes to the next player. The turn is immediately passed when a player submits any number of proposals or motions. Once the last player on the player list has taken his turn, the turn cycles back to the first player.

P008: Players are ordered in the player list according to the order that they joined.

P009: Players may only make 1 proposal to add or remove a single rule OR 2 separate proposals to amend or transmute a single rule on their turn. In addition, on their turn they may perform any number of motions on their turn.

P010: All players have the ability to perform a Motions so as they may ignore any turn restrictions placed on them by other rules. They may do this in conjunction with making proposals, and in conjunction may submit more proposals that the stated limits by any rules. However, should the motion fail, a number of those proposals, chosen by the player who submitted them, must become void and cannot come into effect, so that the player's turn falls under the restriction placed on them by any other rules.

P011: Any player may vote or change their vote at any time.
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Post Post #53  (isolation #10)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:23 pm

VOTE: P006 Nay
Unnecessary. All rules already require a supermajority to pass.
VOTE: P007 Nay
Too vague. An executive branch does us no good if we don't know what it does or who's in it. We need to define the executive branch before with enact it.

p-edit yah I will
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Post Post #54  (isolation #11)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:27 pm

Retracting all motions made in post 51, then:

P008:
A Motion is a action that can only be made by a specific player who possesses the capability to do so. The ability to perform a Motion is only given by a rule that states as such. Motions shall begin numbering at M001 and count up by each ordinal number. A Motion may be passed by absolute majority. A Motion's clause always consists of a thing that will happen when it is passed, i.e., "X will occur." Motions cannot change the rules in any way. When a motion passes, the effect stated immediately occurs.

P009:
Players will take turn in order of the player list, starting with player one and passing in descending order. Should a player not submit a proposal or motion turn within 24 hours, the player forfeits his turn and play passes to the next player. The turn is immediately passed when a player submits any number of proposals or motions. Once the last player on the player list has taken his turn, the turn cycles back to the first player.

P008: Players are ordered in the player list according to the order that they joined.

P010: Players may only make 1 proposal to add or remove a single rule OR 2 separate proposals to amend or transmute a single rule on their turn. In addition, on their turn they may perform any number of motions on their turn.

P011: All players have the ability to perform a Motions so as they may ignore any turn restrictions placed on them by other rules. They may do this in conjunction with making proposals, and in conjunction may submit more proposals that the stated limits by any rules. However, should the motion fail, a number of those proposals, chosen by the player who submitted them, must become void and cannot come into effect, so that the player's turn falls under the restriction placed on them by any other rules.

P012: Any player may vote or change their vote at any time.

P013: Amend R104 to state: "No-one may edit or delete any post on the the game thread, with the exception of the initial post, which may be edited to display important information at the discretion of the moderator, or in the sole case to adjust proposal numbers so they are in accordance with the numbers of other proposals in this thread, so as to avoid confusion.
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Post Post #55  (isolation #12)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:35 pm

In post 54, Inferno390 wrote:Retracting all motions made in post 51, then:

P008:
A Motion is a action that can only be made by a specific player who possesses the capability to do so. The ability to perform a Motion is only given by a rule that states as such. Motions shall begin numbering at M001 and count up by each ordinal number. A Motion may be passed by absolute majority. A Motion's clause always consists of a thing that will happen when it is passed, i.e., "X will occur." Motions cannot change the rules in any way. When a motion passes, the effect stated immediately occurs.

P009:
Players will take turn in order of the player list, starting with player one and passing in descending order. Should a player not submit a proposal or motion turn within 24 hours, the player forfeits his turn and play passes to the next player. The turn is immediately passed when a player submits any number of proposals or motions. Once the last player on the player list has taken his turn, the turn cycles back to the first player.

P010: Players are ordered in the player list according to the order that they joined.

P011: Players may only make 1 proposal to add or remove a single rule OR 2 separate proposals to amend or transmute a single rule on their turn. In addition, on their turn they may perform any number of motions on their turn.

P012: All players have the ability to perform a Motions so as they may ignore any turn restrictions placed on them by other rules. They may do this in conjunction with making proposals, and in conjunction may submit more proposals that the stated limits by any rules. However, should the motion fail, a number of those proposals, chosen by the player who submitted them, must become void and cannot come into effect, so that the player's turn falls under the restriction placed on them by any other rules.

P013: Any player may vote or change their vote at any time.

P014: Amend R104 to state: "No-one may edit or delete any post on the the game thread, with the exception of the initial post, which may be edited to display important information at the discretion of the moderator, or in the sole case to adjust proposal numbers so they are in accordance with the numbers of other proposals in this thread, so as to avoid confusion."


This is what post 55 should look like. Sorry guys.
Also:
P015: A player may retract his proposal at any time. When this occurs it does not go into effect and cannot be voted on any longer.
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Post Post #56  (isolation #13)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:40 pm

Just finished updating the wiki for y'all. DO we want votecounts for each of the proposals or not?
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Post Post #64  (isolation #14)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:00 pm

In post 57, Aronis wrote:I fully support a currency, but there are issues with this current bill. For one, I believe we should take the utmost care in phrasing our rules to make sense. As such, I cannot support a bill using inadequate grammar such as 'be given with'. I also do not support a bill that limits the creation of other currencies. Needlessly restricting ourselves to one fiat currency this early in the game is begging for an autocracy. This is why I will be proposing my own currency in due time.


So just to be aware, I myself cannot amend this proposal as far as I'm aware. These are just suggestions. I did miss a couple of grammar things, but those can be ironed out before it is passed.

In post 57, Aronis wrote:I also love the addition of motions, but I cannot pass an unclear bill. I think the specific bill you are passing needs to be self-explanatory. Stating that only certain players are able to create motions and not giving a clear definition of who that is within the specific bill is a big mistake. What happens if one bill passes and the other doesn't? We'd be left with a mess of a law on our hands.
I'm not inherently opposed to any of these bills regarding motions, turns, etc. But I need them to be grouped together, I feel like the current way they are arranged is sloppy lawmaking.

I'm not sure why motions aren't self explanatory. A player can only perform a motion if a rule says they can. All other motions are invalid. I'm not sure what you mean by "one bill passes and the other doesn't" either. This is all wrapped up in one proposal and doesn't function off of any other function. Obviously if you don't want motions, you don't want rules that create them either.

In post 57, Aronis wrote:I personally support individuals rights to edit their post, but I understand how and why that could be problematic. I'm not sure which way I will vote on this bill.

that's why it's only specifically to clear up proposal numbers.

In post 57, Aronis wrote:I am also unsure about allowing players to retract proposals. I do adamantly believe we should use gender-inclusive language in our bills. I would request this be reworded before I consider a vote in affirmation.

This can be reworded to their.

VOTE: Nay P016
This is far too complicated for trying to get the ball rolling on the game. We don't need this right now, and it clearly has some flaws. I'd rather get all the details of the game ironed out before we start adding new mechanics.

P018: A player who creates a proposal controls that proposal. The controlling player may alter their proposal at any time before it is passed. Players may not alter the proposals they do not control, but they met suggest changes that can be adopted by the controlling player.

This hasn't been addressed in the rules yet, so I think it should be.

Once we have the main rules hammered down, I have an idea for commitees that I'm going propose. But let's get all our I's dotted first.
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Post Post #65  (isolation #15)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:01 pm

VOTE: Nay P017
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Post Post #67  (isolation #16)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:15 pm

True. I will alter P018 to add: "Whenever an alteration is made to a proposal, the new form of that proposal must be posted in the thread and all votes on it are reset, except for the controlling player's vote."

Also, for P015:
A player may retract their proposal at any time. When this occurs it does not go into effect and cannot be voted on any longer.

VC is currently:

P003: 5 Yea, 1 Nay
P005: 3 Yea, 2 Nay
P001: 2 Nay
P007: 3 Yea, 1 Nay
P006: 1 Yea, 1 Nay
P008: 1 Yea
P009: 1 Yea
P010: 1 Yea
P011: 1 Yea
P012: 1 Yea
P013: 3 Yea
P014: 1 Yea
P015: 1 Yea
P016: 1 Yea, 2 Nay
P017: 1 Nay
P018: 1 Yea

P003 passes. I'll add those amendments and add the VC to the wiki.
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Post Post #68  (isolation #17)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:22 pm

Forgot to add your auto Yea to P017, Oka. The Wiki does have the proper vote count as far as I'm aware because I caught it., but i can't go back to edit it here.
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Post Post #70  (isolation #18)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:27 pm

Nah that works
Having one for just a general feel of where all proposals stands is good alongside one that tells who's voting what on individual ones.
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Post Post #75  (isolation #19)  » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:56 pm

VOTE: Nay to P019 & P020

Like I said, we really need to start with ironing out the rules before we add new concepts. Also, we would need to put in a delay period for approving proposals for P020 to work as intended without major issues.
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Post Post #77  (isolation #20)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:33 am

We need one more vote to hammer 13 I think
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Post Post #78  (isolation #21)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:38 am

Things we need to still:
Define what a proposal is
Define what a proposal can do
Define what transmuting, amending, and repealing rules are
Tell what majority it takes to create a rule (right now we’re working off of super majority, which is fine, but the rules don’t say this)


Either someone can work on writing these up or I’ll do it after school today, whichever ends up happening first.
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Post Post #79  (isolation #22)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:39 am

Also, we need to add some clause that gets people to vote. We have 20 proposals in play right now and only 2 have been resolved. Not great.
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Post Post #80  (isolation #23)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:19 am

Oh I missed Rule R204. Which is funny because I've already suggested an amendment to that rule. :facepalm:

P021:

Amend Rule R202 to state:
"A proposal is a an action that can be made by any player that has the ability to create, amend, repeal or transmute a rule.Proposals shall begin numbering at P001 and count up by each ordinal number. When a proposal is created, all players vote on that proposal to decide whether it passes. A proposal passes if it meets the requirements set out for it based on what it is trying to do and any other rules that restrict how it passes. When a proposal is made a new rule, the new rules will begin numbering at R301 and count up by each ordinal number. When a proposal amends a rule, -A1 shall be added to end of the rule number. The number will count up by each ordinal number for subsequent amendments. The original text of the rule, prior to any amendments, shall be designated by the suffix -A0."

P022:

Transmuting a rule refers to changing a rule from mutable to immutable or vice versa.

P023:
Amending a rule means to add or remove, clauses, words, or phrases from a rule. Whenever a rule is amended, those amendments immediately come into effect.

P024:
Repealing a rule means to remove a rule from the active standing rules. When a rule is repealed, any effects it may have immediately go away and it is removed from the standing rules.
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Post Post #81  (isolation #24)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:22 am

P025:
Amend R206 to state:
"Votes for proposals should be done using the vote tags and include "Yea" or "Nay" or similar positive and negative markers and include the proposal number. A player can also abstain from voting; their vote will not be counted among the number of active votes."

P026:
transmute R208.
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Post Post #82  (isolation #25)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:29 am

So I was reading through the rules and i noticed that R208 should actually be R301. I adjusted the rules as such.
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Post Post #85  (isolation #26)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:24 pm

Clearly I can't read or comprehend what I'm reading or think in general

P013 passes. I'll update the wiki later tonight.
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Post Post #88  (isolation #27)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:18 pm

In post 87, OkaPoka wrote:I'm not going to vote no yet but those new rules seem like they allow amendments without a revote which I don't like.


Which rules?
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Post Post #90  (isolation #28)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:06 pm

P023 applies only to rules, not proposals.
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Post Post #92  (isolation #29)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:24 pm

Why no on P025?
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Post Post #94  (isolation #30)  » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:31 pm

That should be clarified. Because honestly I don’t know.
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Post Post #100  (isolation #31)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:55 am

P001 has been hammered. Updating everything to reflect this post.
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Post Post #101  (isolation #32)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:01 am

Excuse me, P001 has failed.

Also added all proposals up to this point adjusted vc, and put in P013.

Sine P003 needs to be unanimous, I'm gonna give Tris (expired on 2019-09-12 09:00:00) to change any minds and then officially declare it dead.
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Post Post #102  (isolation #33)  » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:02 am

Oka, I'm confused on why you are against P025. As far as I can see, all it does is allow players to vote using words other than "yea," "nay," or abstain.
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Post Post #142  (isolation #34)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:40 am

Since Tris has /outed, I'm going to say P003 fails.
We need a grace period for when all players have voted when we need unanimous consent to get a bill to pass.
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Post Post #143  (isolation #35)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:43 am

VOTE: Nay P027 P028

The first I've repeated enough times to make my stance clear.
The second is not what abstaining means nor is it how it works.
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Post Post #144  (isolation #36)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:58 am

P029:
Amend R206:
Votes for proposals should be done using the vote tags and include "Yea" or "Nay" and include the proposal number. A player can also abstain from voting; their vote will not be counted among the number of active votes. To abstain from voting on a given proposal, a player must type Vote: Abstain (proposal number) in the thread.

P030:
After all players have voted on a proposal that would require unanimous consent to pass, if the bill does not then pass, it gets a further 48 hours from the time of the last vote on the proposal so that all players may change their votes if they wish.

So from what I was understanding from R206 and R109, anyone who is abstaining is counted as an active voter on that particular proposal. For example, a proposal with 2 abstaining takes 1 less vote to pass.
So following this, players need to have a way to mark when they are abstaining so that votecounts can be adjusted accordingly. This will do that.
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Post Post #146  (isolation #37)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:09 am

My guess would be no, since there is nothing in the rules that would allow for it.
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Post Post #159  (isolation #38)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:16 am

In post 157, skitter30 wrote:
In post 144, Inferno390 wrote:P029:
Amend R206:
Votes for proposals should be done using the vote tags and include "Yea" or "Nay" and include the proposal number. A player can also abstain from voting; their vote will not be counted among the number of active votes. To abstain from voting on a given proposal, a player must type Vote: Abstain (proposal number) in the thread.


I want to be able to use heal and hurt tags


This is what P025 is for.

I might vote yea on P031 if the number of proposals was upped. I think two would be slightly better with a group of 7 people. If more people come later and we want to amend it, we can. Not sure I'm comfortable with a time limit though.
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Post Post #160  (isolation #39)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:43 am

@Former:

P006: I'm like 99% sure this is redundant given the rules.
P007: No it is not.
P008: A player can only make a motion should a rule say they can. So right now, there are no motions you can make, but in the future, we can add rules that allow player to make motions.
P012: This one goes hand in hand with P011. Basically, you can motion to do as much as you want on your turn, but if the motion does not pass, you have to cut down the actions in your turn so it follows the given rules.
P015: Not really sure.
P016: There are some issure in the rules with value and inflation, and like I said, I'm not for any new mechanics right now.
P017: Kind of? Basically you can let someone else vote for you.
P018: I think because people don't like the idea of specifically retracting proposals. This one just defines how a proposal can be changed by it's creator and gives a helpful definition.
P019: It is not explicitly against the rules as of yet.
P020: Probably not?
P025: I want to make sure words other than Yea or Nay are legal for processing votes. Right now we're counting them as such, but since it's not explicitly specified in the rules, it could raise some hairline issues later on.
P026 is supposed to read "amend R301." An error due to a wiki update.
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Post Post #173  (isolation #40)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:43 pm

Time out
How did P012 pass without P010?
Will someone double check that work?
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Post Post #174  (isolation #41)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:44 pm

I’m sorry, P011, not P010

Also I made P015, and a I was voting yea on it
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Post Post #176  (isolation #42)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:52 pm

Weird
Okay then
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Post Post #179  (isolation #43)  » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:03 pm

That looks far better
Let’s finish up with the fine-tuning we have going on rn, and then we can work in the currency.
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Post Post #193  (isolation #44)  » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:32 am

Guys I hope you are aware that passing P028 doesn't do anything because R109 implicitly overrrides it.
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Post Post #198  (isolation #45)  » Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:28 pm

That seems like a pretty smooth way to handle things. It would obsolete part of R310, but that rule can be fixed.
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Post Post #202  (isolation #46)  » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:44 pm

Housekeeping

Wiki is updated
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Post Post #215  (isolation #47)  » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:38 pm

There is already something for this
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Post Post #243  (isolation #48)  » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:36 pm

Sorry been really busy to keep everything up to date
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Post Post #244  (isolation #49)  » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:52 pm

VOTE: Yea P032-34
VOTE: Nay P035

Updating the wiki accordingly.
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Post Post #245  (isolation #50)  » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:57 pm

P028 fails.

P032 and P034 pass.

Wiki has been adjusted accordingly
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