Micro 890: CultD3 [Game Over; Korina Rules The World]

[EspressoPatronum]

First of all, that MS paint is 10/10 quality right there.

[EspressoPatronum]

And second, I spent far too long trying to read into the number of torches and pitchforks.

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh, and VOTE: Chemist

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh, and VOTE: Chemist

why am I the default early wagon

Because you lurked really hard the last time I played with you. I found it rather frustrating + would like to either:
1. Force you to be more active to stop the lynch on you, or
2. Lynch you if you lurk again.

[EspressoPatronum]

I love your name Expresso.
[...]

Thanks!

but you spelled it wrong

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh, and VOTE: Chemist

why am I the default early wagon

Because you lurked really hard the last time I played with you. I found it rather frustrating + would like to either:
1. Force you to be more active to stop the lynch on you, or
2. Lynch you if you lurk again.

And an early wagon on me for no reason other than policy is supposed to help my motivation how?

I'm not sure, but that's a question for you to answer. In the event that it doesn't help with your motivation, we'll probably end up with scenario #2.

As stated, it's an either/or vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Light and L can you guys set up an avi?

[EspressoPatronum]

Fine then

I welcome this challenge, annoying as it is

I appreciate it!

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm annoyed at the Chemist wagon right now and it's not because I don't scumread him.

What's your specific read of Chemist?

Does the wagon in its entirety annoy you, or is it specific votes on the wagon?

Also, can you each sign your posts?

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn, I have high hopes for the outcome. Chemist looks like he's happy to rise to the occasion:

Fine then

I welcome this challenge, annoying as it is

For what it's worth, I genuinely find lurking frustrating and anti-town. My experience has also been that lurkers have a greater than random chance of being scum.

I'm very happy to policy on D1 on account of lurking, but I am always willing to change in light of new information.

[EspressoPatronum]

And thanks for signing your posts btw, chenn.

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso, policy lynch talk already?

Bruh, it's day 1 and I'm in the game. Of course we're talking policy!

[EspressoPatronum]

UNVOTE:
I appreciate the activity, Chemist. Hoping to see you keep at it!

[EspressoPatronum]

Ok so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the strength of Unrecruitable Town that you hope the cult targets you for conversion + it fails?

I'm genuinely asking because I've never played a cult game. If the above assumption is correct, why claim it D1 (or

ever

) if you're not under pressure?

[EspressoPatronum]

That's a reasonable point. I disagree with it because I think UTs seem stronger if they're unknown to the cult, but I respect that it has its merits.

I would like more people to weigh in on the discussion before the other UT comes forward.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Dr Drew
He's blending in too well. His ISO has 0 substance.

Cult leader - calling it now.

[EspressoPatronum]

I elect myself town leader. Who's with me?

I feel like I've only seen 8 of us talk. Are we missing someone?

2 posts from ceejay ~1 day ago

[EspressoPatronum]

I elect myself town leader. Who's with me?

I feel like I've only seen 8 of us talk. Are we missing someone?

You're de facto leader by nature of your high post count. I don't think we need to worry about going beyond that.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Dr Drew
He's blending in too well. His ISO has 0 substance.

Cult leader - calling it now.

Sooo how about his post 164? Does it not have substance? I sort of liked that post.

He hasn't taken any conflicting stances or offered anything to the discussion that isn't agreement to consensus or placing a townread.

That sounds like someone who is trying to blend in and appease people.

[EspressoPatronum]

Is coasting a scum tell these days?

It can be

Espresso, firstly I tend to get town reads quicker the scum reads. Secondly, why is it an issue that I am in agreement with some people?

It's an issue that you're

only

in agreement with people.

And there hasn't been much real content here, Elsa claiming UT and setup talk.

Sorry, but I am a more reactive player.

If you were forced to categorize everyone into town or scum right now, what would the list look like?

Scum can sometimes blend in. We can help root them out by forcing ppl to take and defend stances.

[EspressoPatronum]

and you're also really appeasy, as seem by 169]

- chennis.

Agreement itself is fine. As stated to Drew earlier, having no stances other than appeasement is an issue.

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn either you're skimming my posts or purposely mischaracterizing them. Neither is helpful.

[EspressoPatronum]

you

posted "i'll let you lead town because you have a lot of posts,"

NOT

me.

sigh.

But I didn't say she should lead town.

I said she was the de facto leader by nature of her post count.

Those aren't the same thing.

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso, as someone said.....why do you want forced reads? I almost feel like they could be manipulated sometime down the road. When i develop reads one way or another I will give them.

Also to elaborate on my elsa read, not saying he is necessarily town, but is most likely not cult leader. I could definitely see a scenario where he is the other cult member.

If you're scum, I've already called out your attempt at not taking controversial stances. Since I don't want scum!you to get away with this, I want to force you to take controversial stances. Giving early reads will generate controversial stances.

Town should be happy to do so, as town has no reason to hide their reads. You're evidently against providing your reads, which is another red flag for me.

[EspressoPatronum]

you

posted "i'll let you lead town because you have a lot of posts,"

NOT

me.

sigh.

But I didn't say he should lead town.

I said he was the de facto leader by nature of his post count.

Those aren't the same thing.

EBWOP

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso, as someone said.....why do you want forced reads? I almost feel like they could be manipulated sometime down the road. When i develop reads one way or another I will give them.

Also to elaborate on my elsa read, not saying he is necessarily town, but is most likely not cult leader. I could definitely see a scenario where he is the other cult member.

If you're scum, I've already called out your attempt at not taking controversial stances. Since I don't want scum!you to get away with this, I want to force you to take controversial stances. Giving early reads will generate controversial stances.

Town should be happy to do so, as town has no reason to hide their reads. You're evidently against providing your reads, which is another red flag for me.

I am not hiding reads.

You are saying you want me to take 'controversial stances'..... you are making me basically make up some reads, how does that help town?

When I have a read I give it, like I have already done. If you want a scum read from me keep asking for town to make up reads and then pretty sure I got at least one.

I want you to.provide scumreads. They're necessarily controversial because people don't like being scumread. Give me literally any two scumreads and your reasons for them.

That's all I'm asking + you're making a huge deal about it. I'll do it in my next post to show you how easy it is!

[EspressoPatronum]

@Drew - recall the parameters I requested of you: No null reads, sort everyone.

Town
Chemist - I was initially wary about potential lurkiness, but he's really stepped up to my request. I find myself agreeing with most of his reads. He's proactively giving information instead of reactively waiting to be prodded.

Elsa Jay - I don't like that he revealed as UT, but he has a respectable stance as to why he did it + it seemed town motivated. He has also been very active.

Townlean
Gameplay - on memory alone, none of gameplay's posts stand out. I recall gameplay helping us out Elsa though, so that's worthwhile and shows town initiative to solve.

Chkflip - probably my weakest townread. Chk seems to be involved in discussion and questions though, so I'm happy with a weak townlean for now.

Scumlean
Ceejayvinoya - nothing really standout from ceejay. Not a lot of activity due to the late start. I recall ceejay's entrance being kinda meh, but I can't remember any of the posts off the top of my head.

Light and L - haven't seen much from Gamma, but I'm not liking chenn's content. Chenn started coming after me once I voted Drew. He was also twisting my words into conclusions that I did not make.

Pine - Pine has been a bit lurky this game. He did the same thing in Ruby Mafia. He did give us warning that he was busy with work in that game, but I don't think it detracts from his willingness to lurk as scum.

Scum
Doctor Drew - before I started prodding him, all of his posts looked like attempts to blend in. After prodding him, he's been extremely reluctant to provide reads, citing his reactive playstyle as the reason.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Drew - recall the parameters I requested of you: No null reads, sort everyone.

Town
Chemist - I was initially wary about potential lurkiness, but he's really stepped up to my request. I find myself agreeing with most of his reads. He's proactively giving information instead of reactively waiting to be prodded.

Elsa Jay - I don't like that he revealed as UT, but he has a respectable stance as to why he did it + it seemed town motivated. He has also been very active.

Townlean
Gameplay - on memory alone, none of gameplay's posts stand out. I recall gameplay helping us out Elsa though, so that's worthwhile and shows town initiative to solve.

Chkflip - probably my weakest townread. Chk seems to be involved in discussion and questions though, so I'm happy with a weak townlean for now.

Scumlean
Ceejayvinoya - nothing really standout from ceejay. Not a lot of activity due to the late start. I recall ceejay's entrance being kinda meh, but I can't remember any of the posts off the top of my head.

Light and L - haven't seen much from Gamma, but I'm not liking chenn's content. Chenn started coming after me once I voted Drew. He was also twisting my words into conclusions that I did not make.

Pine - Pine has been a bit lurky this game. He did the same thing in Ruby Mafia. He did give us warning that he was busy with work in that game, but I don't think it detracts from his willingness to lurk as scum.

Scum
Doctor Drew - before I started prodding him, all of his posts looked like attempts to blend in. After prodding him, he's been extremely reluctant to provide reads, citing his reactive playstyle as the reason.

you

posted "i'll let you lead town because you have a lot of posts,"

NOT

me.

sigh.

But I didn't say she should lead town.

I said she was the de facto leader by nature of her post count.

Those aren't the same thing.

You're pretty much letting him lead.

It is the same thing.

Sorry but I have no intention to surpass his activity rn.

Since you're so critical of that, how about you try taking the lead?

[EspressoPatronum]

Whups, didn't mean to quote my whole reads list.

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler:

@Drew - recall the parameters I requested of you: No null reads, sort everyone.

Town
Chemist - I was initially wary about potential lurkiness, but he's really stepped up to my request. I find myself agreeing with most of his reads. He's proactively giving information instead of reactively waiting to be prodded.

Elsa Jay - I don't like that he revealed as UT, but he has a respectable stance as to why he did it + it seemed town motivated. He has also been very active.

Townlean
Gameplay - on memory alone, none of gameplay's posts stand out. I recall gameplay helping us out Elsa though, so that's worthwhile and shows town initiative to solve.

Chkflip - probably my weakest townread. Chk seems to be involved in discussion and questions though, so I'm happy with a weak townlean for now.

Scumlean
Ceejayvinoya - nothing really standout from ceejay. Not a lot of activity due to the late start. I recall ceejay's entrance being kinda meh, but I can't remember any of the posts off the top of my head.

Light and L - haven't seen much from Gamma, but I'm not liking chenn's content. Chenn started coming after me once I voted Drew. He was also twisting my words into conclusions that I did not make.

Pine - Pine has been a bit lurky this game. He did the same thing in Ruby Mafia. He did give us warning that he was busy with work in that game, but I don't think it detracts from his willingness to lurk as scum.

Scum
Doctor Drew - before I started prodding him, all of his posts looked like attempts to blend in. After prodding him, he's been extremely reluctant to provide reads, citing his reactive playstyle as the reason.

@Chenn

EP
Chemist
Elsa
Gameplay
Chk

Ceejay
LightL
Drew

Put simply, the list means this: I will lynch anyone at the bottom and nobody at the top.

I'm not pretending my reads are perfect. This is my perspective on the gamestate as it is rn + am happy to work with people to lynch my scum pool and solidify my town pool. If you're town, you should be willing to do the same.

[EspressoPatronum]

Sorry but I have no intention to surpass his activity rn.

Since you're so critical of that, how about you try taking the lead?

I was just surprised how apathetic you are towards his planned leadership.

I'm not asking you to take the reins and become leader, though the way you thought that interests me.

I'm asking why did you let him or why you didn't care. Though now that I'm thinking about it, it's not very important.

You're probably right that it's not very important. I can't pass up a chance on a bit of theory though, so I'm diving in anyway.

First:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/dictionary ... h/de-facto

That link isn't meant to be patronizing or condescending in any way. I think the root of your problem with my post comes from how I used de facto, so I'm hoping the link puts us on the same page.

Imo, there isn't a decision for town leadership... it happens naturally when people start to take control of the conversation. I'm sure there are several ways to do this, but the most common (and probably easiest tbh) way of doing that is posting more than everyone else.

By posting more than everyone else, you can control the flow of the conversation. (Note - this is why some of the most dominant players post so much). If you looked to Elsa at the time of my de facto comment, you'd see that Else had 40ish posts when everyone else was at or below 20ish.

____

I liked your question regarding why I don't care about Elsa's plan for leadership. I'm not actually sure tbh. It's probably because I townread Elsa and I'm happy with my lynch pool.

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler:

@Drew - recall the parameters I requested of you: No null reads, sort everyone.

Town
Chemist - I was initially wary about potential lurkiness, but he's really stepped up to my request. I find myself agreeing with most of his reads. He's proactively giving information instead of reactively waiting to be prodded.

Elsa Jay - I don't like that he revealed as UT, but he has a respectable stance as to why he did it + it seemed town motivated. He has also been very active.

Townlean
Gameplay - on memory alone, none of gameplay's posts stand out. I recall gameplay helping us out Elsa though, so that's worthwhile and shows town initiative to solve.

Chkflip - probably my weakest townread. Chk seems to be involved in discussion and questions though, so I'm happy with a weak townlean for now.

Scumlean
Ceejayvinoya - nothing really standout from ceejay. Not a lot of activity due to the late start. I recall ceejay's entrance being kinda meh, but I can't remember any of the posts off the top of my head.

Light and L - haven't seen much from Gamma, but I'm not liking chenn's content. Chenn started coming after me once I voted Drew. He was also twisting my words into conclusions that I did not make.

Pine - Pine has been a bit lurky this game. He did the same thing in Ruby Mafia. He did give us warning that he was busy with work in that game, but I don't think it detracts from his willingness to lurk as scum.

Scum
Doctor Drew - before I started prodding him, all of his posts looked like attempts to blend in. After prodding him, he's been extremely reluctant to provide reads, citing his reactive playstyle as the reason.

@Chenn

EP
Chemist
Elsa
Gameplay
Chk

Ceejay
LightL
Drew

Put simply, the list means this: I will lynch anyone at the bottom and nobody at the top.

I'm not pretending my reads are perfect. This is my perspective on the gamestate as it is rn + am happy to work with people to lynch my scum pool and solidify my town pool. If you're town, you should be willing to do the same.

This is a dumb question but are your reads open to change? Because you did not mention that.

Yeah, they're always subject to change.

Fair question btw. I can see how 'solidify' gives the impression that they're not subject to change.

[EspressoPatronum]

L+L I keep seeing you commenting on people leading town down a bad path

So what's the good path to lead them down?

+1+1+1+1+1
Bless you, Chemist.

[EspressoPatronum]

mafia is a game of dominoes. solve a few crucial slots, look at how they've approached other slots (and how other slots have approached them) and you've got a good portion of a gamesolve.

stressing on cult leader, shallow reads, forcing interactions, etc etc is distracting. we have one day to play this game of dominoes before the inherent mechanics of cults makes all our progress worthless. wasting your time on a lynchpool,

or even finding someone to vote,

does not help.

topple the dominoes.

Ok but HOW do you topple the dominoes. Again, you knocked down everyone else's methods without giving us an alternative method.

All you did was give us a vague domino analogy.

[EspressoPatronum]

i would say elsa and EP, and maybe chemist, are the dominoes. if you're a domino your job is to be cooperative and make it easy for you to be townbinned, and play with the goal of figuring out how scum is trying to manipulate the topping of the dominoes (aka - how they're trying to manipulate your interactions.)

Are you saying dominoes are town?

Because if dominoes are town, you're really just advocating for creating a town core and lynching outside of that.

It's pretty much the same as my reads list.

[EspressoPatronum]

If you're saying the dominoes are your lynchpool, then you're again doing the same thing as my reads list.

[EspressoPatronum]

Huh, this domino thing is new to me. I'll look your example.

And tbf, it was very vague until you started explaining it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also worth noting that you're advocating for one of many theories with which we can shape our perspective of the game. You've been treating it as the only way to play.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm a big fan of the town core theory, but I also like lynch pools.

Finding town is usually easier than finding scum, so building a town core and lynching outside of that is usually pretty reliable.

Giving a lynch pool signals to town who you're willing to compromise on lynching.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Chenn I read through the entirety of your linked game. I get where you're going for your domino theory, but I'm not sure if that game is analogous to this one for two reasons:
1) the conversation was dominated by RC, shosin, and one other (Buj, I think). Treating those as dominoes makes sense because they're the ones leading discussion by a large margin, but I'm not sure the same holds true here. The example of you being a domino is also distinguishable to this case, as you came in mid-D2 into a lurker slot that had to prove you were town. You did well btw, but it's not the same as this game.

2) grey flag is a different mechanic to this game. In that game, you needed to find 2 of the 3 scum, which allowed you to create a town block of 5ish and win if you got 4 correct. Definitely a tough task, but again, it's different to this game. If anything, Grey Flag is closer to a coalition game, which I'd say benefits more from town cores, reads lists, and scum pools.

All of that to say I appreciate the value of your domino theory, but I only see that working when one or maybe two things happens:
1. Active players are able to sort one another and form sufficiently strong pairings (I forget the word RC used in the GF game, but it's essentially the chance of two people being scum together) between themselves and/or others.
2. When we're later into D1 or maybe into D2+. For now, I'm happy with my town core and lynch pools. What are yours?

I'll work towards the domino theory in a few (real time) days once we have more material to work from.

[EspressoPatronum]

I like the case, Chk!

VOTE: Light and L

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah I don't buy this shit at-fucking-all, and there's probably scum on the wagon. [Snipped the A+ case on Chemist]

If L&L flips town, I could see one of the three others on the wagon as scum (chk/Elsa/ceejay). Looking like it could be ceejay.

I don't see why scum would want to bus on D1 in this game, so I'd likely give towncred to all currently on the wagon. If L&L is cult leader, the whole wagon is locktown imo.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah I don't buy this shit at-fucking-all, and there's probably scum on the wagon. [Snipped the A+ case on Chemist]

If L&L flips town, I could see one of the three others on the wagon as scum (chk/Elsa/ceejay). Looking like it could be ceejay.

I don't see why scum would want to bus on D1 in this game, so I'd likely give towncred to all currently on the wagon. If L&L is cult leader, the whole wagon is locktown imo.

Whoa hey, get a load of this guys WIFOM

VOTE: EP

Why hello again, old friend.

The discrediting begins... Ruby 2.0.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah I don't buy this shit at-fucking-all, and there's probably scum on the wagon. [Snipped the A+ case on Chemist]

If L&L flips town, I could see one of the three others on the wagon as scum (chk/Elsa/ceejay). Looking like it could be ceejay.

I don't see why scum would want to bus on D1 in this game, so I'd likely give towncred to all currently on the wagon. If L&L is cult leader, the whole wagon is locktown imo.

Whoa hey, get a load of this guys WIFOM

VOTE: EP

Why hello again, old friend.

The discrediting begins... Ruby 2.0.

You’re misusing the term. Calling you scummy is not discrediting.

Implying I have an irrational or personal vendetta against you, however, IS.

You did the same thing to me as scum in Ruby + you're doing it again here.

Calling something WIFOM =/= calling something scummy. I would like you to elaborate on exactly why you think scum would bus the cult leader on D1.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hmm interesting case. I do notice that I posted about hunting scum over cult leader and now Light and L apparently likes me.

VOTE: Light and L

yeah this is really not good progression

Interesting that you noticed mine but not espresso's lack of progression

That's because I do have progression. Have you read my ISO?

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't like the wifominess of that post

WATCH OUT EP, CEEJAY IS DISCREDITING YOU

But he's not scumreading me with that post because he knows the difference between WIFOM and scumread.

[EspressoPatronum]

You also didn't answer my question.

[EspressoPatronum]

You also didn't answer my question.

That's @Pine btw.

[EspressoPatronum]

Ah fuck it. I’ll explain why it’s a stupid question.

Being Town is about being Town. Town is effortlessly Town, and always has the Town’s wincon in their mind.

Scum have to juggle two wincons. The one they’re pretending to have, and the one they actually have.

Being good at scumhunting isn’t about giving weight to all the times scum pretends correctly. It’s about spotting when they break character. An actor who remembers 95% of their lines is a shit actor.

So in other words, fuck your ISO. It’s irrelevant.

I genuinely appreciate the rundown on your theory of mafia, as I like seeing how people view the game. I also always appreciate scum hunting tips. If you'd like to elaborate on some during/after the game, I'm all ears.

Back to business -- that wasn't my question. I understand that 337 is pretty WIFOMY, but I wanted to see if you agreed that scum would not bus the cult leader on D1 in this game mode.

[EspressoPatronum]

Intent to hammer chennis because this day isn't going anywhere anyway

Bless

[EspressoPatronum]

Elsa also outed the gambit on like page 3.

Can you quote the post for me?

I just skimmed his ISO and couldn't find it. If anything, a lot of his posts double down on the UT claim.

[EspressoPatronum]

Are you kidding me? It was never a serious claim. It said so right in the claim.

I may be over-remembering Elsa making the gambit explicit, but I just looked at his ISO and it’s implied multiple places, which I will quote when I’m at a computer rather than phone.

Further, Cult Leader Elsa has a rolecop partner, which means he KNOWS we’re in column B, and therefore never puts himself in this position.

Use your fucking heads, people.

lets say YOU are the cult leader

YOU would know we were in column B because you would have known about your rolecop partner. YOU would also know that it was never a serious claim without Elsa having to imply anything.

He also hard defended Chenn.

VOTE: Pine

[EspressoPatronum]

Pine isn't Cult Leader, he didn't visit anyone last night.

I'm Tracker and get your votes off of him.

UNVOTE:

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso, what do you think of this?

I disagree with Pine re EJ's posts being obviously a gambit. EJ doubled down on the claim multiple times.

Karnage's suggestion to lynch EJ was reasonable in light of the chenn's flip + I don't think that makes him scum.

Hbu?

[EspressoPatronum]

EJ has to be the recruit here. I can't picture the CL passing up the opportunity to recruit a likely PR (bcz VT fake claiming UT seems bad). I'm also pretty sure Pine calling the UT claim an obv gambit is coming from a scum TMI perspective.

VOTE: Pine

[EspressoPatronum]

@Drew I'm not sure how valuable the EJ/EP/Chemist domino theory is here. Assuming chenn was genuine in his domino theory belief and not trying to sow confusion, I'd say the dominoes this game are Karnage, EJ, Pine, and possibly me (per Chk's post above).

[EspressoPatronum]

Sorry about the siteflake, all. IRL things got in the way and checking the site fell out of my routine.

Congrats to Bingle, Drew, and the other cultists.