[CHALLENGE] September Challenge

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Seems like a good chance to take a stab at a new newbie setup, tbh.

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Do gunsmiths have guns? I don't think they do normally, but I can't remember. Either way, probably best to massclaim and then aim for the pools with the highest mafia proportion, since gsmiths are mostly useless.

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Eh. They're okay useful post massclaim, but given 3 kills N1 the game doesn't last long enough for them to be a huge influence. Maf doc claims VT, Goons split into vig/gsmith. Any maf death clears townies, vigs prob shoot for the doc, mafia probably shoots a vig. Not sure EV wise, but I'd guess it leans townsided.

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is my setup balanced ?

Loosely, yes.

cop 9er is vaguely balanced, you're adding .5 mls for a cop->vig transition.

Not sure the informed goon is important/useful, but it's in the realm of playable.

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Prospective Newbie:

Randomly one of:

Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Tracker, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Doctor JK, 5 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

In my experience the grid system isn't helpful and usually adds to confusion for newbies. This has some of the most balanced (by stats, at least) setups, with ambiguity in setup from any individual slot except vig without complicated roles. It's also a pretty good introduction to standard mafia roles. The most complicated interactions are RB/JK which has never really been an issue and GSmith Maf Doc, which I think is a good addition to demonstrate role ambiguity/ the ability to argue your way out of a guilty.

Thoughts?

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Watcher is probably too powerful for a newbie. Proposed changes in 55 would leave:

Prospective Newbie 2.0

1. Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
2. Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Doctor, 5 VT
3. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
4. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Vigilante, JK, 5 VT
5. Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
6. Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

Setup 1 is a straight upgrade from Doc/RB/BP from the old matrix6 which had an observed win rate of ~39%. It gets rid of BP which I think is an unfun role, and is mostly irrelevant to site meta. I'm fairly satisfied there.

The new Setup 2 is cop/doc/RB with the caveat that the cop doesn't immediately know their results are always viable. M6 version had a 54% winrate while the 2d3 had 78%, so the ambiguity is probably a good thing to drop the winrate a bit. I think I'm okay with that balance wise.

Setup 3 is slightly less town power than B3 from 2d3, (Rolecop Tracker JK) which has a 57% win rate. Again, clipping there seems reasonable and I don't think the doc/JK switch will hurt town too much.

Setup 4 is new. Vig/JK is a lot of power but slightly negative interactions. My guess is that it'd be fairly balanced.

Setup 5 is traditional JK 9er which had 53% in M6. I don't think this needs tweaks.

Setup 6 allows for GSMith ambiguity in Setup 2 (a plus) and the vig is a soft guilty if it fails to kill. Gsmith can only hit one of the scum and Vig can hit the other. I atually really like the symmetry in here and it

looks

balanced without digging too deep.

Gunsmith would, I think, also seem confusing for newbies, but I agree; I do like the Gunsmith/Maf Doc interaction.
To me, though, Vig seems dubious in a newbie; the swing that could produce might be really bad.
Other than that, though, I also think this one has more room for fakeclaiming etc., which is good.

Gsmith being confusing could probably be solved by changing the Role PM for the newbie queue. "Receives a result of "has a gun" for Mafia Roleblockers, Mafia Goons, and Town Vigilantes. Receives a result of "does not have a gun" for any other role." Should make it clear enough.

Vig introducing swing is valid, but imo secondary.

AFAIK, the newbie queue is designed to introduce common roles, acclimate people to our site, and be fun. Whatever else it may be, vig is generally a fun role.

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I would say combined. Miller itself is a role. We don’t call them Miller Townies or Guilty townies. This implies collective subconscious has always thought of it as a role, not a modification to a vanilla townie role.

It's explicitly listed as a role on the wiki, FWIW, so I think you're safe to say it's a combination.

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I gotta say that I'm not a fan of most of those roles, tbh. The balance also seems really wonky, particularly when a second VT is chosen.

Godfather Goon Cop 6 VTs, for example, seems really punishing.

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I suspect it's very townsided. Vig is a confirmable role, after all (and it doesn't really help with symmetry because scum can't plausibly fakeclaim it). Even though the town roles can interfere with each other, they probably won't.

Point. Symmetry isn't a huge concern anyway. Switching 4 back.

I don't think the vig in 6 is an issue, but I'd be down to hear why people do.

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Prospective Newbie 3

1. Mafia RB, Goon, JK, Tracker, 5 VT
2. Mafia RB, Goon, GSmith, Doctor, 5 VT
3. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Tracker, Doctor, 5 VT
4. Mafia Rolecop, Goon, Doctor, JK, 5 VT
5. Mafia Doctor, Goon, JK, 6 VT
6. Mafia Doctor, Goon, GSmith, Vig, 5 VT

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I have to read 6 whole setups to vote?

GDI.

I guess I can.

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Oh, that was easy

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S_S
Pops
T Lich
Oka
Student
Nk15
Mith

I’d play none of these, tbh, barring game specific gimmicks. Miths is the least balanced, students has oops all investigations (which I find distasteful, but isn’t objectively wrong) oka’s seems < fun than vig 9er and pops has the more interesting setup tweak, despite still being functionally a cop setup.

SS is pretty solid, if derivative of cop 9er. NK15 is 48 setups, but a skim saw a few that were functionally mountainous. It seems to have all the disadvantages of an open without the upsides. I think the grid system is the downfall here, and it’s be better if he just focused on the setups he actually liked.

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I’ll deal with nk15’s monster later. The whole grid isn’t even showing up on my phone.

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I know that a watcher setup would fit these guidelines and that is what you truly wanted from me Jingle
But I can never give that to you

I don’t like watchers. I just don’t like cops more than I don’t like watchers. Basically, if it doesn’t require interpretation and doesn’t promote creative claiming I’m not a huge fan. Tracker is probably my favorite allowed investigative role.

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God no, vigs are awful. I’m of the opinion they should act once per game to confirm their role and then never shoot again. Just cause I use/know how to balance a role doesn’t mean I like it.

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Assuming the setups that don't have encrpytors just have general daytalk, because otherwise half of these don't meet the requirements.

Jingle - Vig setup is problematic, both because it is the strongest (and possibly swingiest) role and because it would be immediately obvious that it was in the setup in the majority of setups. I would expect the setup with 6 VTs to be a bit scumsided? But otherwise the others are probably fine.

Observed winrate of jk 9er in m6 was 53%

As far as #6, I’m open to advice. It’s the only setup with a vig. The cop has a false guilty and a false inno and mafia has a doctor to interact with the vig. I agree that it’s git the most going on, but I don’t think it has too much for a newbie and I’d like to hear the why from people who do.

Oops, hit edit instead of quote! Sorry - mith

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Traffic Analyst Enabler enables traffic analysis as long as he is alive, not once he dies. You evaluated the balance in reverse. Town can actually get as many as 2 purely mechanical lynches before finding any scum with dayplay, as opposed to needing to lynch a specific scum with dayplay to unlock their cop.

Oh, lol, that analysis makes way more sense now.