Magic: The Gathering,GO TEAM MS!

[chamber]

Garruk isn't quite as good as Elspeth suns champion, but its likely very close. I bet the number of times someone beats a garruk that any one of us is aware of is going to be limited to one hand. Pack Rat is really a worse card than both , it just put pressure on you to have a removal spell if they had it turn 2, and was rare so it came up way too damn often.

[McMenno]

[popsofctown]

Oh, I thought about how Pack Rat was not the right card to name as I was walking away from the computer. Pack Rat is an entire tier above Garruk, next to Jitte. Garruk is a tier below that. Both those tiers shouldn't be in limited.

They want the game to be winnable by worse players. Losing all of the time isn't fun.

You might be exactly right that this is their -intention-, but data shows that the best way to increase the winrates of weak players is for format speed to be higher. Cards like Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Garruk do the opposite, they encourage a control or slow midrange shell for them to be maximally leveraged. If we're talking about like Hexdrinker though, sure thing, definitely getting exactly what you want, I lost a round at the GP to game 1 turn 1 hexdrinker game 2 turn 1 Hexdrinker and while I have no way of knowing whether that player sucks, sucking would not have inhibited his ability to do that, that's for sure. But there, at the least the bandaid was ripped off very, very quickly, I sure prefer that.

Garruk is also a powerful six Mana mythic that requires you to be in a couple specific colors. Evasion also makes him look very foolish since Mana for two bad wolves isn't a great rate.

"Nobody has any evasion" is actually a hidden theme of the set, that was pointed out in one of my limited podcasts. There's far fewer fliers than an average set and they have pretty low power, no big fat green trampler at common, and no in-set mechanic that gives you pseudo evasion like afflict, too-big-to-block-exert, or even War of the Spark's "make the army hard to block" minigame. I am actually really excited about playing a set that jerks in that direction to see what a format with that kind of texture feels like, even though it naturally made it pretty unlikely that I would be able to address the Garruk I ran into using my board.

[panthaleon]

Nobody... Has evasion?

At common

Ardenvale Tactician, Faerie Guidemother, Flutterfox, and Prized Griffin are all in white, with solid removal options and some more evasion at uncommon.

Mistford River Turtle, Steelgaze Griffin, Tome Raider, and Vantress Paladin exist for blue, with a very playable counterspell and some potent removal at common.

Black had highly coveted removal, asking with a playable mind rot in Reaper of Night, as well as marginally playable hand attack that punished bomby threats like Garruk.

Red eschews traditional evasion for speed, power, and efficient removal, as well as gets Ogre Errant at common for evasion purposes.

And finally green has Fierce Witchstalker and Garenbrig Paladin at common, along with Maraleaf Rider for lure purposes.

Like powerful mythic planeswalkers are kind of a normal thing in limited. If you are resolving a six Mana threat at any Rarity above uncommon, you should probably win the game. It's a bit annoying to deal with sure, but Garruk isn't any scarier them Liliana Dreadhorde General or Chandra, Awakened Inferno.

[popsofctown]

Yeah, black has no "normal" fliers at common, while they usually do. Reaper of Night is highly controversial, I think it's really good but I might be in the wrong camp. So if you're not supposed to play that, you're not supposed to evade with black at all. Black is usually in the air more than this.
Blue has the fliers they usually have, they're just smaller than they usually are, the equivalent of Steelgaze Griffin and Vantress Paladin in most sets would be more unconditional to reach the same amount of power. So like, the paradigm of evade in the air, defend on the ground, will have to include even more defend on the ground this time around, which could be cool, I think.
White is the one that now that you listed it out that is actually a lot of flying. Prized Griffin has been not good enough in a lot of formats in a row but being the only game in town might be a really big deal for the guy and the others.

You are correct I kind of object to all 6 mana mythics being in limited, they're just pretty silly. I did my fair share of beating people with turn 6 Awakened Inferno but I didn't find it fun; I don't think it's really fun magic. I'm aware it's "normal", and that when they leave "or planeswalker" off of Bake into a Pumpkin the message is that they want that to be "normal".

[chamber]

Oh, I thought about how Pack Rat was not the right card to name as I was walking away from the computer. Pack Rat is an entire tier above Garruk, next to Jitte. Garruk is a tier below that. Both those tiers shouldn't be in limited.

They want the game to be winnable by worse players. Losing all of the time isn't fun.

You might be exactly right that this is their -intention-, but data shows that the best way to increase the winrates of weak players is for format speed to be higher. Cards like Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Garruk do the opposite, they encourage a control or slow midrange shell for them to be maximally leveraged. If we're talking about like Hexdrinker though, sure thing, definitely getting exactly what you want, I lost a round at the GP to game 1 turn 1 hexdrinker game 2 turn 1 Hexdrinker and while I have no way of knowing whether that player sucks, sucking would not have inhibited his ability to do that, that's for sure. But there, at the least the bandaid was ripped off very, very quickly, I sure prefer that.

Garruk is also a powerful six Mana mythic that requires you to be in a couple specific colors. Evasion also makes him look very foolish since Mana for two bad wolves isn't a great rate.

"Nobody has any evasion" is actually a hidden theme of the set, that was pointed out in one of my limited podcasts. There's far fewer fliers than an average set and they have pretty low power, no big fat green trampler at common, and no in-set mechanic that gives you pseudo evasion like afflict, too-big-to-block-exert, or even War of the Spark's "make the army hard to block" minigame. I am actually really excited about playing a set that jerks in that direction to see what a format with that kind of texture feels like, even though it naturally made it pretty unlikely that I would be able to address the Garruk I ran into using my board.

Comparing jitte to packrat is a joke. I don't know if you guys have played kamigawa limited, but the card is an order of magnitude more dominant than packrat was. There is like 1 common answer to the card in the third set, otherwise you just lose basically.

[popsofctown]

I haven't played with either card and easily buy that Jitte is far stronger.

[panthaleon]

Jitte is a fucked up card. V fun to play with though

[popsofctown]

We did an mafiascum mtg tournament like seven or eight years ago on Magic Workstation, I did pretty well (I may have won, can't remember for sure). Extended still existed back then, and I played a "Let faeries carry Jittes" deck that I netdecked. It was roughly something like,

Spoiler: list

4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Mana Leak
3 Riptide Laboratory
4 Mutavault
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pools
4 Flooded Plains
2 Polluted Delta
some islands
+any cards I forgot

The deck can't exist again because Riptide Laboratory (land, taps for gray, 1U and tap: return target Wizard you control to its owner's hand) is too old for Modern and was really key to making the deck work.
I felt like Jitte was very fun to play with when I played that deck. There are some tough decisions in spite of the card being very powerful. It's 4 mana in total to get it onto something and that might mean letting your opponent do some of what they want to do, and you have to decide if you're ok with that.

It would not be okay for Jitte to be in Modern but I feel a little discouraged that WotC doesn't feel interested in getting an equipment that feels something like Jitte in Modern (at least, it didn't show up in Modern Horizons, we just got sideboard swords).

[chamber]

Jitte is probably fine in modern. I'm not convinced it would see much play. Immediately after unbanning stone-forge is not the time to introduce it though.

[panthaleon]

Oh goodness no Jitte only belongs in a format like Vintage where it's a total free for all. Jitte completely invalidates creature decks and ensures that the entire discussion is around who gets the first counter.

[chamber]

Modern is a very powerful format.

[panthaleon]

(I also don't like modern as a format so I'm p biased)

[hasdgfas]

Jitte is probably fine in modern. I'm not convinced it would see much play. Immediately after unbanning stone-forge is not the time to introduce it though.

There's no way Jitte is acceptable in Modern.

[popsofctown]

I don't think Modern is a powerful format in a way that makes Jitte o.k. It's not like Tarmogoyf or Gurmag Angler where it's like, "maybe this should have costed 1 more mana, but what if that's not what this game's about?", because you have to ask that question 3 times. The -1/-1 mode can be maindeck hatred towards unfair creature decks, and the gain 2 life mode can be very relevant against unfair strategies that deal large but finite amounts of damage, and lots of the top modern decks seem to be about dealing large but finite amounts of damage these days.

If you play a deck with no creatures that can get negged and play towards a win condition that's not "Deal 20", I think there are decks powerful enough in the modern cardpool to do that well for sure, but I think it'd be too much pressure to only play those decks and deck diversity would narrow a little bit instead of widening.

[chamber]

Jitte is probably fine in modern. I'm not convinced it would see much play. Immediately after unbanning stone-forge is not the time to introduce it though.

There's no way Jitte is acceptable in Modern.

I don't play anything other than low stakes standard these days, so I'll deffer to your judgement. Jitte seems like a joke next to something like hogaak though (which I understand got banned but~).

[panthaleon]

The issue with jitte is that if jitte is legal and you want to play a deck with creatures, you have to play jitte. You don't really get a choice.

Also people were upset about Garruk, but Outlaw's Merriment is waaaaay more insane. I got steam rolled by it.

[chamber]

I strongly disagree with that characterization of Jitte in modern. I honestly think it's likely just a sideboard card in stoneforge decks. The aggro strategies in modern are extremely linear and don't have room for random strong cards.

[popsofctown]

full disclosure part of why i was mad was that he drew his garruk even tho i hadn't drawn my outlaw's merriment and it was offensive to me he got to do his "i win the game if I draw my sixth land" without me getting to do my even more oppressive "I win the game if I draw my fourth land"

[panthaleon]

The issue is that jitte kills aggro. If your jitte gets counters, then you win combat for the rest of the game. The floor is a free four life every turn, so aggro dies similarly even if it manages to find a 3 toughness threat.

How much have you played with the jitte in eternal formats?

[chamber]

I haven't played legacy since timespiral was new. I've never played vintage. I've consumed a lot of magic media in my life. I've played far too much of a variety of formats that highlight how good jitte can be including cube and its standard. I think comparing the creature decks of legacy to the creature decks of modern to be very unfair.

[Maestro]

I'm just... so excited for this flavor and for Food tokens

[popsofctown]

I feel like Field of the Dead based ramp is still going to go so far over the top of linear creature decks that they won't be viable. That's just me theorizing about what I think I know though. I haven't actually played enough standard to have any real idea where things will line up after rotation.

Early results seem to prove this true.

But also even other control strategies don't feel viable.

[panthaleon]

Field of the dead is a dumb card and I miss field of ruin.

However if GB Aggroventure turns out to be good, it might eat FoD decks and I'm into that.

[Micc]

Yes, field of the dead is just a silly magic card. I think standard needs a combo deck to get the metagame clock back where it belongs. There’s a lot of good pieces already so I’m hopeful something pops up. Combo based mill is something I’ve been meaning to mess around with if I ever find time to brew standard.