Large Normal 223 | New Beginnings | GAME OVER

[davesaz]

is hectic an alt of an old user or a genuinely new player? because that's gonna drastically impact how i'm reading them

I'd say alt.

[davesaz]

is hectic an alt of an old user or a genuinely new player? because that's gonna drastically impact how i'm reading them

I'd say alt.

Hi Dave!
So there was this study on the wiki I was reading where newbie!scum are a lot more likely greet the thread than newbie!town.
Could you tell me if you're a newbie please?

I'm qualified to be an IC. In fact maybe I am an IC but it won't come out for a couple days.

[davesaz]

Could I see you playing at your best please? What's your page 6 gamesolve?

Ah, there's the rub. My best play is usually in a couple days.

[davesaz]

Hectic is giving me S/N concerns.
It's a lot of volume and the posts are not obviously non-game related, but that's going to make it harder to tell if it's mostly non-sequiturs.

[davesaz]

Terminology cleanup: I use "alt" as a synonym for "not new" as in "the typical relationship between join date and experience does not apply." I realize this is not the same thing as "someone from this site using a different name". I find it useful to distinguish between truly new and experienced, regardless of where the experience comes from.

[davesaz]

Gamma might be scum. I don't remember town!Gamma being this active most of the time.

[davesaz]

Trying to accurately read Hectic early in the game is never going to work out the way you think it will.

What's the motivation for telling people not to try to read someone?

[davesaz]

Yeah I was quite active in Large Normal 215

One game is easy to mention. I used the word most for a reason. And I used the word remember for a reason.
Memory's the 2nd thing to fade as you grow older btw.

[davesaz]

This game started with RWS. At least it's different.

[davesaz]

Eww

[davesaz]

What is the W in RWS

wiki

[davesaz]

Just looking through the roll list and sorting people into 1 of three categories this is what I come up with

Town - Cliff, Rick, Hectic, Eevee, Gamma, Hop, carca, profii
Null - Kop, Billy, Fish, garmr, dave, bob, skellen, youare
Scum - Sharon, JJD, roster, Tchill

Idk why Tchill is in the scum bit there. Should be in the town. Probably because I don't like your name

Umm is this strictly based on names?

[davesaz]

Hectic's whole shtick is to be loud, lot of words and confusing to read.

Accurate IMO. Townish observation.

[davesaz]

I'm assuming that means scum/neutral. If it doesn't then you along with a lot of other people really need to start explaining your acronyms. I get irritating elitist undertones from people doing that.

I did the unexplained acronym thing on purpose to see if it would generate discussion. I agree with your sentiment and would not do this under normal circumstances when not trying to generate responses.

Signal to noise, as in there is very little signal in that posting.

[davesaz]

I'm assuming that means scum/neutral. If it doesn't then you along with a lot of other people really need to start explaining your acronyms. I get irritating elitist undertones from people doing that.

I had no idea what it meant but I look at this problem slightly differently

If someone wants me to follow their point of view and lynch someone, explain it to me in a way I understand or I will just scroll on by

Ah, another opinion. Town should be inquisitive about the meaning fwiw.

[davesaz]

green

stop

Is this better?

I read on mafSepia -- no it is not, the contrast is even worse than the other one on that skin.

[davesaz]

gamma!! who should I vote?

Probably Billy or Tchill, and btw I'll take this tome to explain why. I feel like this game is essentially in a protracted RVS like state, and these two feel out of their element in it. Scum are noted to have trouble fitting in during RVS so I think these two are scummy as such.

I don't think this game had a RVS-like state at all much less a protracted one. That makes this post seem a little contrived to me.
I'm leaning toward you actually thinking this post though, so I'll give it a pass for now.

[davesaz]

I want to say I played with scum!Dave once and he lurked.

davesaz always lurks, because he is a busy man IRL. It's what he says when he gets to post (and how he says it) that enables me to read him. It's completely a tone thing.

It's best to say that my posting rate is extremely variable. I don't tend to yuk it up at all, and often a point has come and gone before I get time to respond to it. Why bother when the water is not just under the bridge but miles downstream.

[davesaz]

I'm effectively treating JJD s 'I am the law' equivalent to 'I am town

Nah, it's just going in character. Have you seen / heard of the movie?

[davesaz]

I don't think that's a scumslip. I'm assumed green PM to mean a town PM, I don't think the colour of the PM is important, and I think Carca was just assuming green=town for the way she used it.

Basically, I think the use of 'green' wasn't in a literal sense of the role PM being

green

.

Yeah, I know what she meant, but she said green. I noticed right off the bat that my town pm was white. And that was unique, because usually they're green. So if I was gonna say I thought someone was town, I'd have said that and wouldn't have said they got a green pm, because I know that in this game they didn't get a green pm, even though usually it would have been green. The whole point of a slip is that it's a mistake that shows allignment. I think that in this game not knowing that the town pm was white is a slip.

Making a note of this one. Slips usually aren't, except when they are things posted in wrong thread, and I still haven't remembered to start a count of how many times people who mention / push on slips are what alignment.

[davesaz]

Don't tell me... are you hiding behind your gimmick to not play the game?

I am

playing the bloody game. You're just not seeing it because you have your bloody shades on. However, there are many experts in this game who would tell you that I -at least- am playing (as in sorting) as we speak. They may not all be able to tell my alignment yet (except those who rolled scum, of course) and may not even know what exactly I'm doing, but they know I'm playing the game of Mafia as we speak.

Can any of these so called experts confirm this?

I have taken some relatively weak AI content from it, yes.

[davesaz]

Billy retracted the slip thing. Not tunneling is good.

[davesaz]

I noticed right off the bat that my town pm was white.

You use mafBlack for skin, right? So everything is white characters on a black background?

[davesaz]

I was thinking about that a bit. How are you thinking scum would act in a heavily jokey environment (when they've seen a fair few townreads coming out of it). Join in, lurk, or post like normal?

Personality matters. Depends on whether said scum has a reputation for joking, or not.

[davesaz]

I don't think this game had a RVS-like state

Why?

Plenty of random, but not much voting. (yeah, some, but not much)
I see the character of the game start as being different from the average RVS in a subtle way. It generated more actual content faster.

[davesaz]

A50 knows if he is scum that comment is there to fuck with him. Hell, if he’s town he knows it’s there too. It forces A50 to think about how I’m thinking about him.

I'll make it an easy task for you: I

really

am not worried either way. I have a very specific task to achieve .. or die trying. (Yeag.. I'm a Lyncher and Elements is my Lynchee)

I fail to see how revealing this is a good thing.

[davesaz]

I don't think this game had a RVS-like state

Why?

Plenty of random, but not much voting. (yeah, some, but not much)
I see the character of the game start as being different from the average RVS in a subtle way. It generated more actual content faster.

Hm. Given that what do you think that content says rn?

Have you noticed my comments about Hectic?

[davesaz]

including FL

I would prefer if people were referred to by their name in this game.

[davesaz]

I get the feeling it might be good to read up on what's currently Normal.

[davesaz]

Maybe. Question for you, have you ever read the Normal rules in full?

Truthfully, I don't remember if I have

in full

. It's quite likely that things have changed since, if I have.

[davesaz]

Maybe. Question for you, have you ever read the Normal rules in full?

Truthfully, I don't remember if I have

in full

. It's quite likely that things have changed since, if I have.

Yeah, some things have changed.
We have at least 2 PL candidates. My game solving requires truthful information from town.

[davesaz]

I dunno why people like to be selective in their comprehension of what's been typed. Most people read something and it translates into something else in their minds and then they keep assuming that's the truth.

+1

[davesaz]

I am terrified of the possibility of hectic!scum because there's no way I'd be convinced besides the use of PRs.

If Hectic is scum, this type of thought is the reason that posting that way would work.
I'm not scumreading Hectic yet, just pointing out just cause for being skeptical of the "ooh that's gotta be town because who would do that as scum" mentality.

[davesaz]

"ooh that's gotta be town because who would do that as scum" mentality.

AKA WIFOM

was that really necessary

I like pointing it out. For some reason people take a stronger stance when it's called out

Exactly what do you think you're pointing out?

[davesaz]

Are we talking about setup now?

Preferably not. I like to focus on play thanks.

[davesaz]

It's more putting a label on it then pointing it out.

What are you putting the label on?

[davesaz]

Maybe. Question for you, have you ever read the Normal rules in full?

Truthfully, I don't remember if I have

in full

. It's quite likely that things have changed since, if I have.

Okay, because the rules say the

only

allowed third party in normals is a Serial Killer. And SKs aren't allowed in Mini + Micro Normals following implosion's renovation of the normal rules

Evidently you didn't read my

very next post

.

[davesaz]

It's more putting a label on it then pointing it out.

What are you putting the label on?

the "ooh that's gotta be town because who would do that as scum" mentality.

Nope, that's not wifom. That's healthy skepticism.

[davesaz]

Also I might vote roster

Is this roster the player, or the whole roster of missing players?
Which it seems that roster is on the roster.

[davesaz]

Which is my point. Don’t prematurely lock anyone.

[davesaz]

I don't like Hectic dropping out like that.
Lots of slots in prod range.
Fake claims are

fun

but don't really help solve.
Setup spec in a closed game before any flips seems pointless at best, and harmful is more likely.

VOTE: rosterfoster seems like a good place to poke, for now.

[davesaz]

I think Carcalilly looks town for that burst.
I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions, but it's certainly worth an independent look.

Pedit: and a couple more come in, that's some turbo fast posting.

I had the same question about EeveeLution reads tbh.

[davesaz]

interesting how all are different factions, idk how to take this information though. nice list though

This post completely overlooked that the list it was replying to included zero valid roles.

[davesaz]

My roster vote is based on change in character compared to previous town games.
I don't think a lynch there is productive, certainly not this early. Having a wagon there serves another purpose though.

Pedit: yeah Kop is a little iffy so far too.

[davesaz]

you really can tell a character change based on two sentences, huh?

When the previous character was having several hundred posts after a couple RL days -- yeah.

[davesaz]

I'd settle for the VC being actual counts and not just place holders.

[davesaz]

I think Carcalilly looks town for that burst.
I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions, but it's certainly worth an independent look.

Pedit: and a couple more come in, that's some turbo fast posting.

I had the same question about EeveeLution reads tbh.

So what in particular makes you think that burst of posts come from town. Its a bit of hollow statement after all.

The tone and content do not make sense from the point of view of a scum motivation, in the game state at that time.
People say this type of thing all the time, you'll just have to get used to it.

[davesaz]

I think Carcalilly looks town for that burst.
I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions, but it's certainly worth an independent look.

Pedit: and a couple more come in, that's some turbo fast posting.

I had the same question about EeveeLution reads tbh.

Same goes for you. Just look likes your paratoting what other just said before to try and fit in. With only a tiny bit tacked on.

What about his conclusions dont you agree with.

There are 3 states of agreement possible -- agree, don't agree, uncertain.
Don't necessarily agree is uncertain. Taking the full context of the sentence it means that I could agree (or not) but would need to look for myself to know if the conclusions are valid or not.

[davesaz]

My roster vote is based on change in character compared to previous town games.
I don't think a lynch there is productive, certainly not this early. Having a wagon there serves another purpose though.

Pedit: yeah Kop is a little iffy so far too.

You say its based on change of character. How is it you can tell his character when he has only made 4 posts. Feels like bit of overjustification in your reasoning. So to me it appears your trying hard to appear to have reason for the vote

Someone else asked this question too. Did you see the answer later in the thread, after you posted this? I'd be happy to point it out if you can't find it.

[davesaz]

3) i didnt like daves posts that much. Specifically the fact he seemed to push a couple people including gamma without really tossing a lynch out or finishing the conversation.

Some people play mafia by punching people and seeing how they react. I'm a lot more subtle than that.

[davesaz]

bob, who's your current vote on and would you be willing to join us on roster?

I think the rooster wagon is just a bad wagon. Cant see any justification for it even gettign to 3 votes let alone 5. Or how you tried to push it 6.

This is a 21 player game. A wagon of 5 is not pressure.

agreed... tbh I'd encourage some wagons, roster or otherwise as that will help the game sort itself out a bit.

This is the actual reason for my vote. Town needs

wagons

and this early in the game the wagon itself is more important than who.

[davesaz]

I don't like Hectic dropping out like that.
Lots of slots in prod range.
Fake claims are

fun

but don't really help solve.
Setup spec in a closed game before any flips seems pointless at best, and harmful is more likely.

VOTE: rosterfoster seems like a good place to poke, for now.

It is no longer a good place imo,

Also to everyone voting them, if they come back you can always get back on, hell id probably join you if they dont have a good reason.

If rosterslot ends up being scum we have a candidate for partner here?

[davesaz]

I don't like Hectic dropping out like that.
Lots of slots in prod range.
Fake claims are

fun

but don't really help solve.
Setup spec in a closed game before any flips seems pointless at best, and harmful is more likely.

VOTE: rosterfoster seems like a good place to poke, for now.

It is no longer a good place imo,

Also to everyone voting them, if they come back you can always get back on, hell id probably join you if they dont have a good reason.

If rosterslot ends up being scum we have a candidate for partner here?

Yes but not much to determine which is scum. Since theres no defense

Ok, maybe I do need to punch here.
You're the partner I'm talking about.
You're defending roster, who has done nothing to deserve defense.
Bleating about "ooh that's an empty slot" is nothing useful.
You'd prefer the wagon to be on someone else?
VOTE: EveeLution Army

[davesaz]

Dave, I've been doing the same thing essentially. What's up with this?

If you have, it isn't the only thing you've been doing. Actually that doesn't sound quite right, it's not the most prominent thing.
But frankly, I don't specifically have a problem with Eevee other than that.

BTW I don't see the issue with Tchill. It's possible I formed my opinion too early, care to be specific about what you think?

[davesaz]

Woah, what's going on here?

According to my memory of the wiki, wagons on people who probably aren't even reading the thread right now are utterly useless. Move your votes from roster to anyone else, people.
Either roster will get replaced or will make a return and we can judge/lynch him then if he continues to actively lurk.

If that's in a wiki (I have my doubts), the entry is waaay too shallow.
Wagons have a purpose beyond their effect on the person being wagoned.

A lynch on an inactive has purpose if it's a scum lynch, and can be worse than useless if it's not. But wagons are most definitely not equal to lynches.

Any other comments on the things that have happened since you posted last?

[davesaz]

What's the point of a wagon on someone who literally admitted they're skimming the thread, and still haven't posted since votes started building up on them?

The point of a wagon is to see who reacts to it and how. Early in the day this is far more important than who the wagon is on. Even a lurker wagon can serve this purpose.

Since there has been reaction to this wagon (finally), and I made my point by slapping Eevee with a fish, I'll probably want a different one. I'm working right now and have not decided who the next stuckee will be.

Pedit: yes, that's part of the point, to see which wagons get actively resisted and for what reasons.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Garmr
Seems to be active but doesn't appear to be trying to scumhunt.

[davesaz]

3.I found Hopkirks vote pretty scummy on me I was going to shift over but I thought I would feel them out more. I feel like a town hopkirk wouldn't of disengaged like he did when it wasn't working out so well. But it honestly surprised me he would jump off me. It feels like he was dipping his toys in the water to see if he could get a wagon off instead of actually hunting.

Did concern over being seen as OMGUSing play any part?

[davesaz]

Did you pay attention to the part of 878 that applied to you?
Thoughts on the remainder of Hopkirk's posting?

[davesaz]

If it was later, sure, but idk how I feel about this reasoning at this point in time.

Other people can have different reasoning, but for me I'm very consistent in looking for it.

[davesaz]

If it was later, sure, but idk how I feel about this reasoning at this point in time.

Other people can have different reasoning, but for me I'm very consistent in looking for it.

BTW it works for me, in one game I vigged 2 scum and called the 3rd from the dead thread.

[davesaz]

VC please

Garmr, you know I don't read on subbing in?

Yeah but I want to be confirmed town.

This type of comment bugs me whenever I see it.
Just be town, if you're town. Being "confirmed" is something to be wary of when you're town because scum are the only ones who

know

you're town.

[davesaz]

A few votes have been made on others with reasoning that could easily also be applied to me. That makes me think that maybe people think I'm something that I'm not?

Ooh, let me guess. People think you're town but you're not?
VOTE: Cliff Booth

BTW that's not just a joke vote. I happen to agree that the reasoning [not scumhunting] applies to you. Prove me wrong.

[davesaz]

Separate topic (slightly related).
Someone made a comment that having opinions is scumhunting. It's not. Taking actions to become informed is what I'm looking for.

[davesaz]

A few votes have been made on others with reasoning that could easily also be applied to me. That makes me think that maybe people think I'm something that I'm not?

Ooh, let me guess. People think you're town but you're not?
VOTE: Cliff Booth

BTW that's not just a joke vote. I happen to agree that the reasoning [not scumhunting] applies to you. Prove me wrong.

I'm not ready to scumhunt yet. But it was really easy to bait you into voting me. I'm gonna enjoy the feeling for awhile.

Btw your votes look really weird in a vacuum

Eh, I happen to be here now, Garmr woke up when I voted him, and your iso sucks.
Am I exhibiting IC level play yet?

[davesaz]

You can have fun for about 3 more days before it starts to become a pressing matter.

My town play is utterly dependent on fellow town refraining from lies that can't be immediately and unequivocally discounted as jokes. If it's a lie and looks serious it's gonna mess me up. There is one exception where it makes sense, and that's to preserve secrecy for something more important like an actual role.

[davesaz]

So being wagoned for not really doing anything positive in the game makes someone town?

[davesaz]

I'll want to hear why you like Garmr's read and why you agree/disagree with it. Nobody else weighed in there which is concerning me.

I think that Garmr is sincere and that it's the type of thing that he's likely to push.
Accurate or inaccurate is less consequential at this point of the game. Lots of people make pushes which in hindsight were inaccurate.

[davesaz]

Dave, Gamma, Elements, profii vs the Flavor should be fun.

eh??

[davesaz]

Don’t you wanna dance?

I have no problem with you at the current time. If you decide to take control of the town I will.

Why would a town read being in control of town be a problem? Depending on the nature of the game, some townies will be better leaders than others. For instance, I am 100% weaker in early game in mountainous but stronger in late game.

I have an issue with arrogance.
If someone just gets scum without all the measuring body parts thing, then fine. If it gets into a contest it becomes a problem.

[davesaz]

A few votes have been made on others with reasoning that could easily also be applied to me. That makes me think that maybe people think I'm something that I'm not?

Ooh, let me guess. People think you're town but you're not?
VOTE: Cliff Booth

BTW that's not just a joke vote. I happen to agree that the reasoning [not scumhunting] applies to you. Prove me wrong.

man i really don't like this post

i liked cliff's #750 toward judge jospeh dredd. it seemed earnest and unusually forward for scum to post. the only thing i dislike from his ISO is him jumping on the elements wagon when it was convenient for him to do so. i can't really get behind the wagon on him.

i would vote in tchill or dave or possiby billypilgrim right now, but i need to do some iso'ing

Have we played before? I kinda doubt it.
Have you been reading all of my posts, and understanding all of the meaning?

[davesaz]

is there a case on elements being scum that i missed?

is there a case on elements being scum that i missed?

If there is, I've missed it too

Yes, there is. I may take some time to cover it later, after work.
The self vote kinda waved me off that wagon tbh. Why did you want people to vote you, bad enough to vote yourself?

[davesaz]

@Cliff -- I want you to actually play. Votes have multiple purposes.
If it's alongside the theme alt gimmick, that's fine, but do something. Acting like you don't need to take up the actual issues in the game is going to draw votes.

[davesaz]

I'm saying that there is a reason that the people who play with me frequently aren't very worried about me being scum, yes.
There is a valid concern that most of the slots I'm talking about are falling into the "not scumhunting" category.
It's true that some of the slots in that category have to be town, because the category is waaaay too big right now.
During the work week, this is what I have time to look at. Plus the average slot usefulness for this game is a bit under what I'm used to, so I'm trying to light a fire under some of them. With less success than I'd like unfortunately.

[davesaz]

What do you think of the way the game is reacting when wagons get to the 5-6 level?
Can town do anything to help scum's reaction to wagons stand out more?

[davesaz]

i liked cliff's #750 toward judge jospeh dredd. it seemed earnest and unusually forward for scum to post. the only thing i dislike from his ISO is him jumping on the elements wagon when it was convenient for him to do so. i can't really get behind the wagon on him.

wasn't I the first person to vote for elements? even if I wasn't I've been critical of him more than I've been of anyone else. Well for reasons I am posting openly anyway

I don't think I've seen you post much about the why for elements. Care to make it a bit more clear?

[davesaz]

VOTE: cliff booth

Just checking in. Carca pointed out that not all players that flake have do so maliciously. Just assume I'm in that group. I'm pretty much just cutting my bullshit d1 out. Yall know how I progress in games lol. See yall D2.

Not a real fan here. I kinda liked where you were going with scumreads and this feels too convenient.

[davesaz]

What does pro-element mean?

[davesaz]

VOTE: Carcalilly

[davesaz]

Why are people voting Carca

It's a better alternative to my old reaction to things that upset me.
UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

I do find it funny (strange) that a couple people defend every wagon whether the recipient deserves it or not.

[davesaz]

It may not be (probably isn't) the same people for every wagon. Though it could be.
roster, cliff, elements to name 3 of them.
I'd need to review to know if there is a commonality there or not, but it's awfully strange that people with such poor iso's are defended at all.
I don't think any one of the defenders is actively pushing an alternative either, which is also mega strange.

[davesaz]

TBH Cliff is better the last 12-24 hours. Doubt he'd be my first choice for a lynch today now.
Garmr improved after I voted him too. That wasn't really a wagon that I recall.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Carcalilly

Why are people voting Carca

It's a better alternative to my old reaction to things that upset me.
UNVOTE:

This slightly upsets me. At least toss in another lynch if you're gonna back off so easily

It was an anger flash and I wanted to take it off before going to sleep.
I was tired enough to need that sleep before choosing, and didn't want to go back where I was.

Going by memory we're at 6-ish days until deadline?

[davesaz]

TBH your whole stance on our 1v1 (if you can call it that) just seems like you sticking up for elements while giving no reasoning for it. For how "strange and useless" the ordeal seemed to you it really appears you're putting a questionable amount of effort into trying to convince people to like him more while still putting some distance between the two of you via readslist.

I was trying to justify my own gut reads by putting down some form of base analysis of your interactions by post but through that I realized how absolutely

bare

it is, and just due to the nature of my train-of-thought posting I realized how much effort I wasted in this attempt.

I'm going to be honest to myself and say this was a waste of time, but I already wrote it, so fuck.

And I'm aware that it looks scummy but if I had just gave up halfway and not posted it, it's kind of a waste, and I'd rather you think I'm scum that be THAT self critical about what I post and what might look "scummy" from me.

Feels genuine. I often run up against a post that's written but not sure if I want to post it because it ends up not saying anything. Scum would be more likely to just drop the matter for fear of looking foolish.

[davesaz]

Hey my memory still works sometimes.

[davesaz]

I haven't done a single thing that any thinking town should see as scummy. Ever.

[davesaz]

This is the very definition of what town should do.

[davesaz]

You're quite welcome to ask questions at any time.

Pedit: they're the bald faced truth.

[davesaz]

And I'm pretty sure, in plain terms, the self-vote was an attempt to draw attention back to the game during a dry time/standstill.

Well to me it looked more like him trying to make the wagon and the people on it look stupid. It was a gambit, nothing more than that. To say that it was this attempt to breathe life back into the game is BS

I thought of a 3rd option, which I won't explain.
Between options 1 and 2, I'd lean towards 2.

[davesaz]

And I'm pretty sure, in plain terms, the self-vote was an attempt to draw attention back to the game during a dry time/standstill.

Well to me it looked more like him trying to make the wagon and the people on it look stupid. It was a gambit, nothing more than that. To say that it was this attempt to breathe life back into the game is BS

I thought of a 3rd option, which I won't explain.
Between options 1 and 2, I'd lean towards 2.

Which option is which? And why aren't you explaining option 3?

1 is what Carcalilly said, 2 is what Cliff said. Explaining 3 would be bad for town if it's right.

[davesaz]

Elements, have you directly explained your actual reason for self voting?

[davesaz]

How do you feel about Bob as a source?

[davesaz]

That's fine. It was also an invitation to give a Bob read.

[davesaz]

Yeah that's another member of the do-nothing crowd. It's a pretty big gathering.

[davesaz]

@Cliff -- Tchill did 'stuff'. When he stopped it was definitely noticed.

[davesaz]

The joke you missed

The amount of time making a joke post could be used for a serious one instead.

[davesaz]

Ugh, the "list" in the 1st post is a table.
Nice in principle, hard to copy/paste in practice. Making myself a no frills version so I can work with it.

Kop
Billy Pilgrim
Cliff Booth
Rick Dalton
Sharon Tate
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Gamma Emerald
Judge Joseph Dredd
Elements
Titus

Fish Monger

Hopkirk
rosterfoster
Carcalilly
Garmr
Tchill13
davesaz
profii
bob3141
Aaron someon?

Skellen

YouAreGreat

[davesaz]

@AaronFrost I agree that taking care of college stuff first is the right priority. Replacing in is good for the site, but it's better when you do it only when you're ready to play.

[davesaz]

I'm going to try something new-ish for me -- including the definitions of the sections as headers instead of just the town/null/scum.
Within a grouping this is unordered. That doesn't mean the people in a grouping are equal.
I should also emphasize that this is cumulative and memory based. Not responsible for gaps or inconsistencies in memory. Your mileage may vary. Terms and conditions apply. Past results do not guarantee similar in the future.

Known by me to be town
davesaz

Posting almost exclusively things that look town motivated
profii
bob3141
Kop
Gamma Emerald
Judge Joseph Dredd
Carcalilly
Garmr
Hopkirk

Mostly town motivated with occasional scummy looking points
Billy Pilgrim
Cliff Booth
Rick Dalton
Hectic

Has posted enough that I should be able to read, but for some reason I can't remember
YouAreGreat
EeveeLution Army

Have not posted enough to read
Titus
rosterfoster
Sharon Tate
AaronFrost

Posting not predominately town motivated
Tchill13
Elements

[davesaz]

Rick thoughts on my claim pls

Fake or stupid.

[davesaz]

I’m the most narcissistic player on site

I'd give that one to RC tbh. It's a close race in any case.

[davesaz]

I can't make up stuff very well, and I've already dropped a couple dad jokes. Don't think I'll try to keep up.

[davesaz]

@MOD 2 days left on the deadline and it's been

almost a week

since the last VC was filled in

[davesaz]

Dave, who do you think we should lynch today?

A day ago I would've said you, but I reread your iso with different assumptions and now I think that's probably a bad idea.

I'm gonna need to reread tchill, YAG, and Eevee before I can answer.

[davesaz]

Is that still alive? At one point Mathblade was going to drop it.

[davesaz]

There will most likely be a 3 or 4 day extension if a lynch isn’t achieved.

Mod tip: It's better to be concrete on extensions -- just do the extension if there is going to be one. It's always "optional" from the player's point of view since we could choose to lynch earlier or not. The "if a lynch isn't achieved" makes it sound like you'd announce it last minute which doesn't allow for online time planning and "most likely" makes it questionable which keeps the deadline pressure on

[davesaz]

I'm having to skim while doing conference calls. Things blew up since I went to bed last night and I want to go through that again.

[davesaz]

Roles that can act one time should be called one shot in the name of the role. Not doing so causes unnecessary confusion.
PRs outing themselves while being townread, I don't get that one.

[davesaz]

PRs outing results unprompted, in particular revealing what roles are in the game (!!) is another head scratcher. Can voyeurs be scum?

[davesaz]

PRs outing results unprompted, in particular revealing what roles are in the game (!!) is another head scratcher. Can voyeurs be scum?

Can we lynch Dave for this post. Dave scum have day chat do you think I would out the doctor if I was a scum pr.

No, you can't. I'm acting in my inexperienced challenged role here. It was a seriously dumb thing to do, perhaps too dumb.
Scum might say such a thing publicly in order to try to gain town cred, and in order to try to fish the doc by getting the doc to defend them.

[davesaz]

Oneshot talk tipped me over the edge when it came to voting for him. I cant see why he mentioned that as he flipped just a macho watcher. I wonder if he was responding to once

per a night

The bolded is not what the role PM says, if the mod pasted it verbatim.
The mod's post says "once, at night". Not per night. The conflict between that and not having 1-shot in the role name explains a lot.

One shot, and other modifiers, are all the rage these days in Normal design. I didn't see all the furor over these details to be well founded at all. He claimed a role and there wasn't anything available to say it wasn't the role. A few people placed a little too much faith in the game designer to provide clear roles.

@MOD -- if anyone has difficulty reconciling the role name and text within the role please pay attention to the questions

[davesaz]

PRs outing results unprompted, in particular revealing what roles are in the game (!!) is another head scratcher. Can voyeurs be scum?

Can we lynch Dave for this post. Dave scum have day chat do you think I would out the doctor if I was a scum pr.

No, you can't. I'm acting in my inexperienced challenged role here. It was a seriously dumb thing to do, perhaps too dumb.
Scum might say such a thing publicly in order to try to gain town cred, and in order to try to fish the doc by getting the doc to defend them.

Yeah I'm going to ignore you now. I get a quick bit of disdain and then moving on as a town reaction. But dwelling on it while painting it as scummy is possible from scum as they want to cast doubt on a town power role.

Take off your "he's posting about me" glasses and put on the "he's posting about people" glasses. You'll find the post is much easier to understand that way, and you'll see I'm much easier to understand that way too.

If I scumread someone I say so. If I say something generic like that it's generic.

[davesaz]

I honestly think he shouldn't have said macho. He was in a really bad position as either faction. I probably shouldnt have voted him myself but i really wanted a lynch to go through and he became too much of a liability unfortunately.

Reminding myself to check a few things.
1. How much time was available at the point in the wagon of Eevee's vote?
2. Was there really time pressure? The mod implied an extension, did that happen before or after the vote? Was there posting after the vote?
3. Did Eevee state a concrete position at that point in time?

Not the only vote I'm planning to look at, but comfortably in the middle of the list.

[davesaz]

Posts 2100-2107... no. No. No. No.

We are not doing that this game, you both have two pages to retract all claims otherwise I am going to wagon you both until you die.

While I'm not personally fond of 2100-2107, I don't think a retraction ultimatum gets us anywhere.

[davesaz]

Titus, good to hear and yes rest for sure!

We had a bona fide tornado warning and funnel cloud sighting right in my neighborhood about 45 minutes ago, which makes 3 this week in southern AZ.
It broke up pretty fast and no effects at my house, but I had a nervous drive home.

[davesaz]

It's a bit early in the day to consider anyone an alternate wagon.

@Cliff, I can guess but I won't. Loose lips sink

ships

towns.

[davesaz]

@Carcalilly: Remember that this game (and all games) has the "ask a

friend

mod option" if you're unsure of how a specific thing works. Might be good to ask that question privately before bringing up the followon point, even if it takes a while for the answer. Though if you read in order you'll probably find Garmr's confirmation before this suggestion.

[davesaz]

Why do you want to be lynched?

[davesaz]

No, I know how it works.

Does the mod know how it should work?

Maybe I'm making a wrong assumption?

[davesaz]

I made that same guess based on the question alone.

[davesaz]

@Rick Dalton

Do you not think that a neapolitan basically has negative town utility in a role madness game? Specifically in a game that no one knows is role madness?

I had a game where the majority of the town were informed and the neo was there to hunt out the few vanilla townies as scum were informed as well.

There are something like 6 pages to read but I'll choose this point in my read to give my position on this point since it's getting activity.
Roles like neapolitan are useful to catch people in lies. Scum who claim vanilla can be caught out as not vanilla for example.
I don't think of any investigative as being negative utility per se. Maybe you're thinking weak vs strong in which case it's weak unless you happen to catch a lie and then it's strong.
Outing the results can be anti-town / negative utility depending on context. You have to think a little with a role like that.

All of the above is generic theory. @Cliff I'm a little concerned at why you want to say you're negative utility but I don't want to probe further.

[davesaz]

I would support mass claim if everyone agrees.

Continuing my catchup, from further behind. Scum ping on this.

[davesaz]

@Carca: 3 different people saw the same thing. I suggest we wait for the likes of dave, Titus & profii to weigh in on this specific issue. Why these 3? Because I know they're analytical in their play. They'll probably be able to tell us if this is "nothing" as you suggest it to be.

Still catching up (yeah I know, slow going). I think I noticed the thing that's being discussed, but it's been all day since so I'll have to jump back there after I'm done.

[davesaz]

Post 1) have you checked on those things yet and if so could you state some. Youve put yourself in an awkward position

No, and I don't think that word means what you think it does.

[davesaz]

Maybe I misread dave and he isn't part of the "cliff claimed nea" mindset but yeah. I think my role probably isn't negative town utility. I still think nea could be with no VTs but I am not nea and I think mine might just be useless

Your second thought is correct, I clearly stated that my post was theory.
Still have that question on why you think it's beneficial to discuss your role possibly being neg util or useless.

[davesaz]

My gawd the site is slow but I'm caught up, possibly because the response time meant people had to stop posting. It's past 1am, not gonna try to slog through going back.

[davesaz]

Why would we think an extension is needed with 7 days left?
I get the annoyance with the site being slow and it would certainly be a reason if the current deadline were shorter.

[davesaz]

I don't think Eevee's use of 'we' is AI. It would be reasonable, from the D1 discussion, to assume that most people in the game expect either MB or a SK or even a vig. I don't think anyone argued specifically in the direction of expecting only one kill. Hanging a read on just that word is a little suspect to me. Some people are more likely than others to innocently rush to conclusions on that small of an indicator (vs nefariously trying to incite a lynch), and I haven't had the time to properly look at who is using 'we' as their sole indicator, if there is anyone doing that.

That's not a defense of Eevee, and I don't have a townread there. I find their overall posting to be vaguely scummy, in a mostly gut read kind of way.

I have meetings/events after work 3 days this week, which means my time is more fragmented than usual. I have Friday off so there is at least some time to do deep analysis before deadline comes.

[davesaz]

Someone was pretty vocal about "watcher and tracker".

[davesaz]

Honest question here -- does someone play normals often enough to know if voyeur is even used in recent meta?

[davesaz]

LUV is our mod, Dave.

What's the point of this comment?

[davesaz]

If the gimmick of the game is to have lots of similar roles then having all 3 (watcher, tracker, voyeur) isn't a counter at all.
If the gimmick of the game is to have one of those be scum, I believe the claim under duress a whole lot more than I believe the unnecessary early claim with result.

[davesaz]

VC 2.2

Tchill13 - (7):

- gobbledygook, Hopkirk, Cliff Booth, Titus, Hectic, Garmr Billy Pilgrim

EeveeLution Army - (4):

- Judge Joseph Dread, Rick Dalton,, , AaronFrost,Texcat

bob4131 - (2):

- profii, Alonzo

Rick Dalton - (1):

- Carcalilly

AaronFrost - (1):

-bob4131

Not Voting:

Kop, Hectic, EeveeLution Army

With 19 alive, it takes 10 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-10-10 05:35:11)

Updated vote count.

So a tldr version of reads

not including masons

I can go into more detail if wanted.
Rick Dalton-town because scum wouldn't argue against the mason claim also I liked them so far.

Titus- Gut and experience with her.

Bob- With experience with both games this is more in line with his town game as he seems more cautious and less involved in his scum unless someone drags him in.

Judge Dread-Actively trying to solve the game, been town reading them for a while.

Cliff- This dwells on the fact if it's multiscum or not due to wagon speed.

Scum

Profii- He contrast the last game I played with him. None of his opinions are to out there his not trying to drive the game and spreading paranoia that will cost town the game.

Hopkirk- Reasons I stated before.

Tchill- His lack of involvement and how his wagon formed.

The rest are nullish.

Will comment on eevee through. They haven't really done much of anything but setup spec isn't a scummy thing to do unless it's information town doesn't have.

how tf is a wagon formation scummy on my part?

ppl are giving up because yall have vomit posted useless info and y

oure talking yourself into an inactive lynch

because yall dont know what to do.

T chill slipped up here. If he thought I was scum why would he use my post to demonstrate a townie talking himself into lynching a inactive slot.

No, the use of yall in this post means that it is not specific to one player.

[davesaz]

@Dave
Also I'm going to ask a couple of questions.

Has anyone noted your lack of ability to apply what's actually happening in game to your points?
Did you know about about it and are you trying to change it?
Is it a problem you always had looking back or are trying out broad generalisations as a scum tool?

I'm saying everything I say for a reason. I scum read you full stop.
VOTE: Garmr

[davesaz]

I believe the claim under duress a whole lot more than I believe the unnecessary early claim with result.

This is tchill and garmr respectively for those who have trouble with complicated sentences.

[davesaz]

I didn't really read 2792 but if Garmr thinks this is me "flipping" he has missed a lot of my games.

[davesaz]

The observation in 2749 is clearly misstating things in a roundabout way btw (I believe the less wordy among us call it casting shade), plenty of my posts are referring to actual game events and giving my opinion on those events. It's part of the reason I scumread him.

[davesaz]

I could give education/advice on how to properly use a voyeur as town. Suffice it to say that the claimed result wasn't it.
I could also give advice on how to fakeclaim things to protect a mason, and that wasn't it either.

Team scum would have partners to give advice. Isn't it possible they would try to exploit a team member's meta to try to pass doctor phishing off as silly townie?

@Tchill have you explained Hopkirk? If not, can you?

[davesaz]

I can’t really put it into words, but I think Profii might be scum.

I've been planning at some point to refresh my memory of the BooneyToonz game to see how this compares.

[davesaz]

VOTE:

1- Vote on profii is OMGUS
2- States inntention to sheep Hopkirk (who is voting gobble) then votes pofii
3- Overall reaction sucks
4- The goat made me

I think you forgot something.

[davesaz]

1.He had no issues believing in Tchills claim despite Scum reading them through out the game. He doesn't second guess himself either This indicates to me he comes from a place of knowing.

Tchill's claim is believable, regardless of previous read. PRs tend to play vaguely scummy so as not to get NK'd. There is a meta element at play. He's also loosely committed to a future course of action and if his claim is false it will be possible to tell.

2. Stayed clear of both elements and cliff booth despite scum reading cliff and putting elements in his not town motivated posting. He opened himself to lynch both but didn't make a decision despite being active.

Unlike a lot of people I thought Elements claim was real. Cliff's play changed and my read changed with it. If you bothered to look at timing and context of when those changes happened you'd know this.

3. Despite a lot of post he doesn't have many very solid stances. Like the closet to commitment he has is his vote on me and it's badly played with little to no pushes at all. If he was hunting you think he would commit to one thing and actually push.

Your voyeur claim is fake. I don't believe that anyone can be that bad a player to use the role in that way. That's not what you do. Saying it was to "protect" carcalilly by making scum think there is a doctor doesn't hold water. You backtracked when you found out that what you claimed was impossible, and nobody seems to care that the thing you backtracked from was blatantly

not what that role should do

.

Your whole "case" is aimed at attacking mine, even though amazingly enough nobody but me sees how fake your claim was and how good my case is. Including the "not about me" section is a nice try at making it seem not OMGUS but what you're saying in that section is patently false. You complain that I'm not pushing anything else, when I have caught scum already. I may be wrong, I never claim to be perfect, but there is no denying that from my point of view, this is a valid push on the strongest lead we have at this point in the game.

As for other opinions (that you claim I don't have)...

I think Eevee is a good lynch.
I think Hectic's incessant inclusion of non-game material is an attempt at obfuscation and I wouldn't mind lynching there either.
Whomever it was that made early comments about both watcher and tracker looks informed, unless it's one of those roles. (I don't remember and haven't had time to look)
Carcalilly was town without being mason and that whole thing is a huge forehead slap. <in case you didn't figure it out, my brief vote there was behavior modification, not related at all to an actual read>
JJD is someone who looks townie but would be the hidden scum if it comes down to lylo.
Profii needs to be checked vs. the BooneyToons game he was scum in.
Rick Dalton is another player who would fit deepscum if it came to that.
In a game that's likely to be role heavy certain behaviors can and should be selectively overlooked -- there is a subtle difference between softplaying and avoiding and I'm giving softplaying a temporary pass based on the (apparent) game type.

I can't remember if I said today was going to be a heavier day for activity due to being off work. I am indeed off today, but my wife wanted to go to an event so paradoxically that meant having less computer time, not more.

Pedit: spicy vote, thoughts beyond just the throwdown?

[davesaz]

It's not what anyone would describe as a developed read.

[davesaz]

This is neat, Dave which side you taking?

Between whom? There are several possible pairings in just the last couple pages.

[davesaz]

Dave, am I correct when I say that you have a good amount of experience with Titus?

Yes at one point I thought I had her pretty well figured out, though what I was noticing was more applicable to themes. She went through some personal stuff so I’m not sure I trust the old meta. I was wrong the last game we played together before the BT team games.

[davesaz]

Why you put a lot of people in your "would lynch" but don't case any of them?

[davesaz]

Also that's waaaaay too long a town list. There can't be ~4 superobvtown and ~5 obvtown. Feels like you're trying to avoid notice from the people on those lists.

[davesaz]

Obvtown is way more than just a town read. I have lots of town reads of varying strength but practically no obvtown. In fact Carcalilly is probably the only one I'd call that.

I'm interpreting your votes as would lynch, given there is nothing more behind them. It's fair to ask where you said that, and I don't remember you using those words.
Why don't you actually case any of them?

[davesaz]

crickets chirp

[davesaz]

Obvtown is way more than just a town read. I have lots of town reads of varying strength but practically no obvtown. In fact Carcalilly is probably the only one I'd call that.

I'm interpreting your votes as would lynch, given there is nothing more behind them. It's fair to ask where you said that, and I don't remember you using those words.
Why don't you actually case any of them?

- did it not strike you as odd that 'hopkirk has super obv town and obv town reads but no regular townreads'? If you're trying to understand my thought process then you're making odd assumptions here rather than thinking 'what does hipkirk mean'.

Of course it stuck me as odd, that's why I commented. I don't try to outguess people or assume the odd things they post are anything else but odd. I say what I think about them and see how they respond. The response is what tells me if the odd things are genuine or not.

Followup question: what purpose does putting obv on all your townreads serve? How does that help us understand you?

-that's a scumpool. Not a lynch pool.

I already covered that. But here's a followup question -- is your lynch pool not the same as your scum pool? I'd be surprised if it's not.

-if I case someone then I'll end up death tunneling them. I'll probably look through you and/or Aaron tonight are write more stuff.

You could start by giving an actual concrete reason for any of your reads. I'm not all that picky. It doesn't need to be elaborate. Just enough to show that you're actually thinking these things and not just making up a list that looks nice.

[davesaz]

@Davidsa

Just curious why your so intent on scum reading me. you called my play town orientated before.

You threw out a ton of generic reasonings that don't apply to me then sheeped texs really bad situational one which would require me to give up myself when being town read, knowing doctor was in the game and having a doctor dumb enough to claim, while alerting town to protection in the game which could lead to a tilt if a cop role claimed.

Then you went into how this was done sub optimal for town from your perspective. This ignores the fact it's suboptimal for scum as well,that if carallily keeped her mouth shut it would of worked, people say a town me would do this and I think it would of been a good idea if it was another player more familiar with me.

You don't acknowledge it to keep your vote on me with out adressing things why?

My read is 100% based on your claim. Nothing else matters.

It's not suboptimal for scum. A scum team who knows your <gee how do I say this> reputation for doing silly stuff, could exploit that fact to try to get a role to out itself. It worked too, not in the expected way but it's hard to argue with results.

You shouldn't be worried about this TBH. I'm gonna keep yelling at the town who refuse to see it, and then you'll win in lylo.

[davesaz]

Explain how it's beneficial to me to push something that nobody else cares about. Consider the potential positive effect on town, if we're both town and I force you to stop and think about what you're doing.

Maybe you should say you were totally wrong, there was never any reason to do what you did, and it's not the way to use that role. Using that role on a mason nets town zero information. Maybe the primary reason for not letting up is that I'm seriously worried you'll fuck town over regardless of your alignment.

I'm trying not to say how the role should be used by town here. If you are town and I help you too much then scum will know how to exploit you. And if you're scum and you don't know what to do with the role it's better for town that you don't.

Clarification: I said the claim/role was the entire reason to scum read you. I'm not really looking for town you, and maybe you're over estimating my attitude day 1. I'll go one further and say that I haven't ISO'd myself to find out what I said, if anything. I don't remember...

[davesaz]

If I'm not producing content why is everyone talking about me?

Umm, that's reason #1 to talk about someone?

[davesaz]

I could see someone who is actually doing things having Alonzo's attitude in 3029 but not really someone who isn't doing anything.
This is nothing like D1 in any case. Elements wasn't a lurker who had barely posted anything. The comparison is false.

[davesaz]

There's clearly no chance someone has 11 obvtown and no regular townreads. You're trying to overjustify that you thought that was 100% genuine when you know perfectly well that at least half of my posts in this game have at least some kind of joke in them. Do you think I'm actually a hydra too?

Where do you get overjustification?
Your reads list is rubbish, I'm calling that flat out. When you're asked to explain them, you just wave your hands.
I don't give a rat's ass about jokes. If anything they just muddy things when town play should be clear.

Give a reason for your reads.
VOTE: Hopkirk

I can play this behavior modification game right up until deadline if y'all want.

[davesaz]

Explain your scumreads.

[davesaz]

Is 3061 even for this game?
What's with all the blacked out spoiler?

[davesaz]

Explain your scumreads.

[davesaz]

To repost the list of my townreads:

If this is a "repost" then what post is it reposted from?
If you're just giving a reason for the people on the previous list then thanks but don't call it a repost.

I'll be happy to read this btw. Just asking a quick question before I do that.

[davesaz]

To repost the list of my townreads:

Hectic- I've played over 600 hours of mafia with him, hydraded with him involving long irl talks, and read him right on every forum game we've played (~4). We can read each other. You're attacking him for inactivity which I can vouch for irl. Your scumread here is shitty as hell.

My issue with Hectic has nothing to do with activity, and it isn't even a scumread per se. I detest all the non-game-relevant wiki shit regardless of who it's coming from. It makes me doubt everything he says. Is your background with him offsite? Would you expect town to just trust meta from somewhere else, not knowing the alignment of the meta source?

Carcalilly- Mason

Bob- I covered some stuff d1. You don't seem to disagree with this.

Garmr- He claimed. I townread him before then which I covered D1.

Yes, I townread Carcalilly without the facepalm Mason stuff.

Bob is kinda in between. I'm nowhere certain on him.

Garmr - My issue with Garmr is very in the open.

JJD- you say you townread him. I explain my townread day 1.

If town, good town. This is a player who can post what he's posting as scum. Therefore not a solid read.

Cliff - I covered d1 after a fairly long interaction.
Rick- you say you townread him. I think I covered my read d1, but it's largely from other people's meta on him.

I don't actually trust either of these. They could be town for reasons that are best left unsaid, but if those reasons aren't true then they're prime candidates for deepscum.

Billy- claim based townread at the moment.

Umm, is this the VT claim? I don't remember. I don't have a strong read either way.

What's so 'shit' about this list which you mostly agree with, and that I mostly covered beforehand?

The scumreads and lack of explanation regarding them.

I can see things have been posted while writing this. I'm gonna go ahead and submit and then read stuff.

[davesaz]

It’s almost like it’s me presenting my townreads then doing POE to make a list of potential scum.
Gosh that must be why it was labelled LIST OF PEOPLE TO LOOK AT.
Gosh, it's odd that you're saying my POE LIST OF PEOPLE TO LOOK AT is a SCUMLIST when I definitely never presented it as that.

Nope, I'm not talking about your people to look at.
Where's your scumlist? And the reasons?

[davesaz]

You know what I'm not looking for d2? Deepscum when we haven't lynched scum yet.

Plenty of people can be deepwolfing. That's not what I'm looking for.

The point of listing possible deepscum is to not obvtown them prematurely.

See 2936 for reads.
If you take that post and add my more recent comment on Hectic you should get that he isn't a proper scumread, but certainly not a townread either.

I'm still seeing lots of hand waving and not much explaining of scumreads. If there are implications invovled I'm horrible at reading between the lines, just so you know. Why are you voting them?

[davesaz]

I could have coasted by with an easy Alonzo lynch days ago if I was aiming to avoid attention.

My alt got caught once as scum based on a post just like this.

[davesaz]

So I looked at gobble, because why not? Someone who apparently knows Titus. Posting is thoroughly unimpressive, but what little there is would be leaning town from a motivation point of view. The slot hasn't been tested at all, but I'm not sure we can get anything useful from a push there at this point in the deadline.

[davesaz]

Texcat might be posting to look good. It doesn't look good.

[davesaz]

Get pressured, do stuff. Seems SOP for this game.
But yes, please do -- if you're town and you get deadline lynched we're better off with your thoughts than without.

[davesaz]

Hmm, open question to anyone/everyone -- who do you think has a share of responsibility for Elements lynch, other than Elements himself?
I haven't looked all that closely -- I was appalled that we didn't force the mod to extend and as usual most of it blew up while I was either sleeping or incredibly busy (dunno which, just know I was in catchup mode reading about the train wreck).

[davesaz]

Hmm, open question to anyone/everyone -- who do you think has a share of responsibility for Elements lynch, other than Elements himself?
I haven't looked all that closely -- I was appalled that we didn't force the mod to extend and as usual most of it blew up while I was either sleeping or incredibly busy (dunno which, just know I was in catchup mode reading about the train wreck).

Let's talk instead about how the majority of your iso is just filler.

Let’s talk about how you’re lying about reading the game.

[davesaz]

@MOD there are several inconsistencies in that VC. Tchill isn't really voting twice (correct vote is Hopkirk I think), 2 people are listed for Eevee but the count only shows 1, I stopped there but could be more problems

[davesaz]

That VC doesn't make sense for a wagon on scum in a SB game with a large team, unless someone who looks town is bussing or they're showing remarkable discipline not driving a strong counter.

If I go with the strong discipline thought, then they're hoping we'll assume a busser and concentrate on the wagon.
If it's MB then it makes a heck of a lot more sense but we have different problems.

If Alonzo is town (the in-your-face thing has me a little worried) then it's largely town driven if SB and all bets are off in a MB world.

[davesaz]

Just came in to say I'm NOT gonna read. I have hit the point of no return with how apathetic this game has become. I gained no new info from D2 posts that I had read, and I don;t see much of anything going on. It's like everyone is isolated on a different island and every single one of us believes the world ends where their line of sight does.

Whoa, back up a bit. You saw 3-4 claims and softs, 2-3 sets of people squaring off and trading jabs, and you got

nothing

from it?
That's enough to question my read on you.

[davesaz]

@Dave: how come you haven't wanted an explained readslist from Eevee, or Kop, or Titus, or Gobble, or Tchill who never explained his scumread on me beyond a sentence, or Rick who just says stuff (which I think is his meta though), or literally anyone else?

Oh heya couple pages happened.
My supply of round toits ran out.

[davesaz]

How would the knowing have any effect on the voting?

[davesaz]

Hopkirk doesn't look good with the what about others defense.

Do you think that's all he's doing?

[davesaz]

How about the rest of the posts? Thoughts on anyone else?

[davesaz]

@Dave: how come you haven't wanted an explained readslist from Eevee, or Kop, or Titus, or Gobble, or Tchill who never explained his scumread on me beyond a sentence, or Rick who just says stuff (which I think is his meta though), or literally anyone else?

Oh heya couple pages happened.
My supply of round toits ran out.

Hi, it's your local Dave translator here. What does Dave's unexplained obscure phrase that understanding his post relies on mean this time? Well that's anyone's guess. Apparently 'toits' can mean 'rooftops, tight or tits' none of which make any sense in that context, and a search of 'toit' on mafiascum doesn't come up with anything. It's almost enough to make you think he doesn't care about people understanding him and would be more comfortable just yelling at a wall or something. Preferably a short wall since he'll need some sunlight to counteract all this shade and these personal attacks I'm throwin' at 'im.

Ever heard the phrase I’ll get around to it? Round toit...

[davesaz]

Under 24 hours.
VOTE: Alonzo

[davesaz]

No I didn't get around to it.

[davesaz]

Also willing to vote eevee.
Titus narrow focus is a potential issue. Can't tell if it's a byproduct of personal things or if it's ai.

[davesaz]

If there is a town voyeur, the result claim needs to go in stages -- first who was targeted, then if anyone claims to have made that target, then what the action was.
But to repeat my previous stance, I'm not going to discuss the full details of the best way to do it. The role catches people based on lies in the details, if it's successful at all.
There are some targets that should not be outed at all by a voyeur, like cops.
Voyeur may at times reveal the existence of an almost-always-scum role, which should be outed if it's important for town to know that role exists in the game.

[davesaz]

Early in the game when it matters more to work on numbers than on specific targets, scum want to shoot people whose death means little.
In the absence of high priority targets like known cops/docs that is... Masons are conf but they are only priority if their reads are spot on.
One place to potentially look for scum is the people who survive from the pool of people who yield little or no information.

[davesaz]

optimal claim order is
doc
tracker
me

Optimal claim order is nobody unless we actually need it to solve.

[davesaz]

There's no way a traitor is stupid enough to <3 only scumpartners unless they're doing it specifically for Wifom which is dumb in itself.

You would think so, but I've been scum in a game where traitor pegged all partners (as scum in that case but as town works the same way), and we lost.

[davesaz]

Can you copy and past everything gobby said with out links. So we can work with it.

Copy/paste private communications isn't allowed. You can paraphrase at most.

[davesaz]

I voyoured tchill btw and no one wanted to visit him. No town or scum roles.

What kind of role did you expect to visit tchill?

[davesaz]

Oven ... cook cooked baked baker roast cake cookie done burnt hot heat heater...
Anyone else have some free associations for that word? Any non English translations that would be meaningful?

[davesaz]

Actually kinda on the fence if I want answers to that. On one hand scum have a pt to be discussing it and town may need to counter with combined brainpower otoh don’t want to out a role...

[davesaz]

I got the first half of that last one but not the 2nd half -- hanging up a conftown as in scumreading / lynching someone who should be conf, or confing someone prematurely based on something that should be contrary to guidelines?

[davesaz]

Random power role- I don't think we should lynch garmr today becuase of my role.

Everyone else- Lets run a counter wagon on garmr against probable scum and pretend there isn't any case on judge.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, but you'll do much better in games if you pay less attention to yourself.

[davesaz]

I got around to reading Cliff v JJD right before going to bed last night.
Billy did the research I would have wanted to do, thanks!

I think JJD is scum here. Cliff bussing isn't completely out of the question, but I think it's unlikely. A scum flip definitely doesn't conf Cliff -- that term gets way too overused IMO.

[davesaz]

I got around to reading Cliff v JJD right before going to bed last night.
Billy did the research I would have wanted to do, thanks!

I think JJD is scum here. Cliff bussing isn't completely out of the question, but I think it's unlikely. A scum flip definitely doesn't conf Cliff -- that term gets way too overused IMO.

If you think JJD is scum here why aren't you hammering?

Measure twice, cut once / check your work before publishing / etc.
It was pointed out that there were two holes in Cliff's story -- not pursuing the guilty and not understanding that the role would be positive for town.
I kinda wanted answers to that.

[davesaz]

when even guys like dave side by scum the town deserves to be punished

For future reference, if you are town here you're forgetting that I tend to waffle a lot <some of which is to get reactions btw> -- if it's not voted then it's not decided.

[davesaz]

If this flips green, then scum have a FV (may or may not actually be Cliff) or Billy's also scum btw.

[davesaz]

Not to mention, if JJD is green, and the role he claimed, and he didn't reveal N2 target, then I'm gonna be a bit annoyed.

[davesaz]

Billy's never scum by any means. Not ever.

The quote you mangled was an if/then.

Billy claimed to have received fruit -- if there isn't another FV then what does that mean? Normals can't have redirection, in case anyone has forgotten that.

[davesaz]

Why do you think it's important?

[davesaz]

Or more accurately, in what way? Have I won a convert to the idea that a more deliberative approach is helpful?

[davesaz]

No fruit here.

Happy that I didn’t need to use my crumbs/softs. Interested to know if anyone caught on or if you bought the whole inexperience challenged angle.

To be honest I can see Cliff being town who messed up but he has to go sooner or later. We get either scum or maybe another conf depending on flip. I don’t want to hurry in any case. At least wait for everyone to post meaningful stuff.

[davesaz]

I agree a scum disloyal simple fv is a pr detector. That’s one reason I started to change my mind before Jjd self hammered.

Pedit scum any type fv might just do rando vend for messing with town. Scum might claim receiving fruit to try to save cliff. Unsure of bob...

[davesaz]

Going fast stops town from full discussion. And I’ll be more pissed than ever if Cliff is another self voting town. Doubt that’s the case but still...