Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 - Snowdin Snowdown

[Nachomamma8]

Neutral route seems the best and the most entertaining!

[Nachomamma8]

like tbf right now im not feeling scumvibes from anyone that's posting, even gingie got better after posting
Nacho and mastina need to do things before i declare them poe scum

Won't be around for a while yet but if you get to the point where I'm POE scum then you might wanna double back and check your work

[Nachomamma8]

Hi! I'm still alive, today didn't quite go as planned but I'll be back after work tonight!

[Nachomamma8]

Hey I apologize again! Work occasionally goes through periods where I work until I'm too tired to work anymore then I sleep and then work until I'm too tired to work anymore and it's a vicious cycle that only puts me farther and farther behind.

It's my day off today - got a full night of sleep and am headed to visit penguin and Cabd shortly but when I get back I hope to do a real catch-up.

[Nachomamma8]

In the meantime, Chennis and Elements both seem like they're grating each other but I don't think either are significantly likelier to be scum as a result. The meat of chennis's push seems to be "he's asking questions in the same way as last game" and the meat of Elements's push seems to be "he wouldn't be fucking up this bad if he were town".

To Chennis, I think that you might be conflating "playstyle" with "meta-relevant scumposting". As scum, Elements is probably going to try to mimic his normal playstyle (as most people do) and dig at angles that they believe they will take as town. You might not like his questions here (and you might have disliked his questions in his scum game), but why is it out of the question for him to ask questions that you dislike as town?

To Elements, I think that people overestimate how well others can read them, and playing with someone frequently doesn't necessarily mean that you're able to read them instantly. We are also hyper-aware of what makes us town or scum, but that doesn't necessarily mean that anyone else is going to pick up on it. And chennis, after you stomped him in the last game, is likely to be HYPERVIGILANT in attempting to catch you as scum in this game. Do you really think that he's likely to be scum here based on misreading you alone?

[Nachomamma8]

HEAL: Wisdom

Wisdom is my only meaningful townread at this point. And I'm out of time but I'll come in to make snide comments intermittently before the big show.

[Nachomamma8]

Town?

.

Not !, but .

[Nachomamma8]

I'm pretty comfortable with both of my votes so far tbh

Sell me on them! Do you think what I posted wrt their argument was wrong?

[Nachomamma8]

What fake banter are you referring to in this game? Are the tendencies you're talking about from the last game you played with him or do you have a more stories past than that?

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't like Elements' progression on Oversoul, and I'm townreading chennis for meta

What's wrong with his progression on Oversoul? He healed him then hurt him within the first 4 pages and then asked him questions, unless I'm missing something here.

[Nachomamma8]

I enjoy the VCA flavor text; it is very cute!

[Nachomamma8]

Anyone else get nothing from the Mastina and Nacho posts or is it just me

It's not my expectation that you get anything from my entry posts; as I alluded to before, was posting distracted but also trying to post period so I wasn't just a ball of nothingness. If you get nothing from my full catch-up, then maybe it's time to panic.

[Nachomamma8]

That was not a towny reaction Elements

as I said, I'm feeling volatile

@Elements:
You later said that you thought that the way that Chennis was pushing you was scummy because he should recognize that you are town, but here it doesn't read like that's the case. When did it shift from "meh" to "ok he's scum he should be townreading me by now"?

[Nachomamma8]

like im already feeling you and chennis are town
thats three already

Why are you feeling I'm town?
normally when I play this way I'm universally scum read

I liked this post a lot, and took a quick skim of the other Undertale game since it's been brought up to see if this is something be might post as scum, and I really don't think it is? His scum play in Undertale 1.0 was fine, but it feels like he's interacting with people in a much more genuine and nuanced way here than he was there.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.

Would most certainly agree with your assessment here.

[Nachomamma8]

We identify four townies and win. Townhunting is better than scumhunting and this playerlist is good for application

Oh. And we identify 7 townies and win because there are night kills in this game. We also do so without flips and without the possibility of people getting lynched, which makes it a considerably harder win condition to meet than it would be in a normal game. Which is what I think people messed up last time.

[Nachomamma8]

I think youre echoing me.

I just like your thought process.

nacho is easy to read
mastina sure its hard for me too

...he says as he gets paranoid of towncho and with the knowledge that scumcho has fooled him multiple times in the past.

[Nachomamma8]

so who is scum, nacho?

Not sure yet! I'm still catching up.

[Nachomamma8]

So first question is your thoughts on souls boldness of claiming obvtown when doing nothing in particular to make it obv. It's small in significance but hilariously enough, that's almost exactly how I planned on entering the game saying lol cool i'm town and focus on sorting you and mastina. idk like a look in the mirror type feeling.

I think that Oversoul has low enough confidence in his scum game that immediately declaring himself obvtown without doing anything would be out of his wheelhouse, simply because he knows he'd get static for it and he'd be afraid of that snowballing out of control and burying him.

[Nachomamma8]

A more direct question is the (fuck whats the word we use) retaliation vote by Elements onto Souls and your thoughts in general of Elements starting game voting patterns.

Read it as more of Elements fucking around and acting a bit crazy than it actually being a revenge vote, tbh; his lost #100 read to me like a more like a "hey I'm done trolling now, let's play some mafia" than anything else which is why I find chemist calling him scum to be a bit like sheeping trying to dress it up like something it wasn't.

HURT: Chemist

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you addressing Nacho?

because Ginngie loves me and love Ginngie. Do you have an issue with that?

[Nachomamma8]

Do Maria-Rakan-Nymph all know each other/are their avatars themed or something?

[Nachomamma8]

Good to know ur town wisdom

its page 1, 1-10 strength of read?

Around a 2 then around a 6 or 7 now

Good read - you should spare him instead of whoever you're soaring at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

We should spare today and see how things go and assess the route tomorrow maybe?

okay nvm I actually kind of like this post

why

[Nachomamma8]

Chemist you have to just keep rolling town dont you

I'm okay with it

Yes, I want to get better at scum, but I hate playing it sometimes lol

But this was a pretty smooth response if Chemist is scum here!

[Nachomamma8]

It's not necessarily bad to spare scummy players in the neutral ending, while yes mafia get an extra kill it also greatly narrows down where the mafia is, and still provides us with a clear that mafia probably don't kill if we can lynch correctly. Also, if they're town, that's a player we would have lynched that we now don't have to

It's not terrible to spare scummy people but it's much better to spare a couple of strong town players that can solidify reads and bond in the spare PT and then hit the ground running as a confirmed town group

[Nachomamma8]

I like Xayah's opening. She's making waves.

[Nachomamma8]

So I never played this mode before so can y'all decide how we approach this and let me know what we do mechanically?

I'd love if somebody talked about the neutral route with me

I'm in favor of going 2-2. 3 spares is not enough flips to be useful - not particularly different from the pacifist route if we go there and I guarantee we can spare two people and not hit scum/hit scum with two lynches (and if we can't, we were prolly gonna lose no matter how we played).

I've also come around to Ginngie and Nymph town. Ginngie high posts spoke to my soul and Nymph's mechanics posts felt like a genuine lost.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are people saying I'm tunneling? He hard softed pr, he's either mafia or actually pr, and we should react appropriately. That's not tunneling...

You're presenting your line of thought like it's the only one that matters and all other lines of thought are dumb or wrong. That is tunneling.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd like to spare one of Wisdom/Ginngie today. I feel they're both strong town players who will make an impact who will be particularly effective in the spare PT. I am uninterested in sparing Rakan because even though he is remarkably town I don't think he will have the same impact as one of those two.

People I am comfortable with getting some sweet sweet death all lie in the Xayah/Mastina/Chemist group, although Chemist is the only person I would consider killing now (and that cld be unfair because I don't actually know him). I'm townreading everyone else which I don't exactly feel great about, which means I probably shouldn't have caught up on my phone.

[Nachomamma8]

And it's probably pretty hypocritical but I'm sad Mastina hasn't projected town harder yet considering she's my ideal candidate for a D1 spare simply because she would be the best to put in work to the PT and develop preliminary thoughts before she got company

[Nachomamma8]

I'm in panic mode at the moment. I don't have to townreads nor time to actually develop them, and I think the current Rakan spare is lazy and, while there's still an OK chance that they are right, don't think it's going to lead to a win.

[Nachomamma8]

There's no reason why we should be sparing Rakan just because he's out strongest townread; it's much better to spare strong townies you still want to be able to make an impact in endgame than it is to spare a new player that isn't a new player just because he pushed a PR soft harder than he should have. For one, does anyone know who he is? Like Rakan/Xayah is a pair apparently (because when I googled Rakah looking for his meta on other mafia sites I found someone talking about making Rakah/Xayah skins) and clearly with his use of terminology he's played before so why can't we be looking at a burner alt pushing a ridiculous stance because he thinks he will be townread for it? Does anyone trust him to lead the game to victory when the Core occurs? I sure as fuck don't. I do trust Wisdom.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not particularly excited if tonight is my last night with Ginngie. I don't really want tonight to be my last night with Ginngie, but I won't have time to do what I need to do until tomorrow night CST @ 1:30 AM. And while I am sure I will be very tired, I would love to spend at least some time with my favorite tie without a human head since that's a good chunk of the reason I wanted to play this game in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

I like Xayah's opening. She's making waves.

People I am comfortable with getting some sweet sweet death all lie in the Xayah/Mastina/Chemist group

This is correct. I like some things that Xayah did. She still doesn't end up as town if I rack and stack from towniest to least townie.

[Nachomamma8]

If we're sparing people for being super town, Elements is by far a better choice than Rakan but I don't think we should be doing that in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

I had paranoia that Oversoul was scum earlier and then I looked at his lost recent scumgame and felt better. I think Chennis's recent meltdown is bad for town but I also think that it looks pretty town simply because it looks genuine and seems like a pretty crazy overextension from scum!Chennis's perspective.

[Nachomamma8]

Your only read on Elements thus far is that you don't like his progression on Oversoul - I asked you if you were talking about him voting/unvoting Oversoul in the first four pages, no response. Why are you scumreading Elements?

[Nachomamma8]

Your only read on Elements thus far is that you don't like his progression on Oversoul - I asked you if you were talking about him voting/unvoting Oversoul in the first four pages, no response. Why are you scumreading Elements?

I mean I quoted the posts I didn’t like when I said I didn’t like his progression

No you didn't.

[Nachomamma8]

And quoting posts doesn't say anything - why didn't you like Elements's progression on Oversoul? How is that the only thing that's grabbed you this game?

[Nachomamma8]

Ok. I was mistaken that you didn't quote the interaction. Why didn't you like the interaction? Why are the first three pages of the game the only thing that gave you meaning here?

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Mastina

Not even sure that this is correct but I don't hink that it's a much better direction than yesterday. I don't want Chemist spared. I don't think Chemist is even a valid spare target. Is one of Oversoul/Elements willing to take a stab at explaining why?

[Nachomamma8]

HEAL: Xayah
Alright, since that happened I'm gonna put myself into a PT with Rakan easiest way to solve both slots and get some protective solving done.

You weren't happy with the spare - why didn't you try to find it?

[Nachomamma8]

Apparently I just forgot how to type on my phone, but fight*** is what I meant to say

[Nachomamma8]

Hey kids so it's really not my intention just to pop in and complain but can we please pump the brakes and drive slow so I can have a moment to contribute properly? The idea that scum is stalling a Ginngie spare is absurd, but also patently Wisdom-esque.

[Nachomamma8]

The problem with going for a pacifist ending is that there are no chances to reevaluate and that is very extremely horribly bad for town. No flip games have an obscenely high scum win percentage for that very reason; the chance that we get it 100 percent right on our first try is not great but with the chance to reassess our win % improves

[Nachomamma8]

Had to reread flavor a couple of times to realize that Elements wasn't dead.

[Nachomamma8]

HEAL: Oversoul

[Nachomamma8]

I'm sicker than shit ATM which is making me crankier than I would be typically. I am actively working against it at the moment but if I fail please know that it's not intentional and it's not directed at you, is just a bad mood leaking into the thread.

[Nachomamma8]

notice whats wrong here?

My thought is that the best way to play the game is from a neutral standpoint; you can form a strong towncore by attempting to hunt together and taking a couple shots at the scumteam and getting a ton of information early in the game (and because of the investigative aspect, scum are put in a shit position in having to try to avoid getting TOO much towncred or it fucks them later), which requires slowing down, posting a lot of content early game, engaging and listening to people. That didn't happen.

I think the pacifist line is the poorest for two reasons. The first is that the scum strategy to play it is remarkably straightforward - kill active people until the game is dead or the voices alive are bad influences. You can fake distance your partners p much all you like because you won't be forced to go through with it, and you don't have to attack townies and deal with righteous fury because you're sparing people and pushing back against momentum usually isn't worth it. Secondly, there are no real chances to reassess. Generally, when I am in a tunnel, it takes a whole lot of work to pull me out of it, but you can push people hard enough where they can produce genuine reactions and everything's all good. However, if I'm townreading scum pretty strongly, it's much harder to pull me out - scum usually don't super fuck up in thread, so the only way I'm able to truly reassess is when my working POE is proven wrong. Pacifist doesn't allow for either of those so we just gotta hope that we didn't fuck up in initial reads and that's it.

However, that's the corner we've played ourselves into. We're on Day 3 and we don't really have a ton of info to work on, no one seems to have a lead that's vaguely promising, and taking two shots or even one shot with no info is setting ourselves up for failure. So... pacifist it is.

[Nachomamma8]

I’m pretty sure with these crap kills that there’s scum in the big three which makes me want to spare only the little three

HEAL: Oversoul

I'm saying this mainly for Wisdom's benefit (since apparently 5+ years of playing together and a "100% read rate" isn't enough for him to understand something very fundamental about my approach as scum), but, if I were lurking scum, I would never ever allow either of these kills to be made after the Rakan spare D1. I don't play fancy or cute when lurking scum; I shoot people who can catch me and get me lynched and especially in this format there's basically no world where I end up not taking a shot at Wisdom at the end of N1 and I can't say that there's anyone here who would overrule me on it.

THAT BEING SAID, I agree. I don't think any of your "big three" should be spared - I think those three players + Xayah have the largest scum ranges and if we're going Pacifist they basically don't get touched.

[Nachomamma8]

youre healing oversoul over me

????

why does this surprise you in the least bit???

[Nachomamma8]

(your daily remember that you're a pain in my ass and would be dead if i was scum)

[Nachomamma8]

unless i was a pacifist supporter so you felt safe

i felt safe with someone who was calling me scum and shutting me down at every turn?
do you really believe that?

[Nachomamma8]

if ive spared your buddy and im gunning for pacifist, sure

if you spared my buddy then i'd shoot you and try to get spared myself for the auto-win
so. again. would still shoot you.

[Nachomamma8]

oversoul > elements > wisdom

oversoul has horrible scum range. elements is pretty new and also has horrible scum range.
you actually have the ability to play scum.

i do think that the way you've sorted me here feels genuine, but because we went with PACIFIST, haven't really seen you push people and deal with them in your typical way. it's also a 31 page game. not a lot of shit has happened. you have to do more to get into "eat a hat" range, i can't just read your mind and know your alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

And why do you feel this is doomed and you want to go pacifist onstead of getting a flip? That also makes zero sense.

read my post again. i did not say that we were doomed, i said that we fucked ourselves hard if we wanted to go neutral - makes no sense to try to lynch scum at this point when 1) lynching town twice means we lose and 2) early game most definitely did not go great.

[Nachomamma8]

excuses. You know this is town me and even tried to spare me on a previous day.

you

really

want me to be scum, don't you???

step back for a minute. realize that you just called me scum because i ordered my townreads incorrectly and realize that this conversation wouldn't be happening if i were scum because you would be dead. i would have shot you night 1. or i would have shot you night 2 when ginngie is telling people to look into me and you're still calling me scum. i would not have shot nymph. i would have shot you.

[Nachomamma8]

early game went fine, we spared two pretty town people. Even this solely shows you dont have the mindset you should have.

Who said we need to lynch twice? One flip is what you should want given the thought process youve described.

sparing rakan was dumb. not a whole lot of people said anything interesting. there is not really too many people engaged in the game.
d2 was much better buuuut ginngie couldn't hold it in her pants and so here we are, playing the boring way.

but yes, having a different opinion of gamestate health than you when you were the leader and i was not means that i am scum.

one lynch could be enough, sure. but because i don't feel confident in any particular scumreads and i don't feel confident everyone will suddenly rise up and engage each other in spirited dialogues... pacifist.

[Nachomamma8]

but yes, having a different opinion of gamestate health than you when you were the leader and i was not means that i am scum.

and i'm confident you'll take this as a complaint, so here I clarify:

we played the game how you wanted to play it. i thought there was a better way, and i am disappointed it didn't happen the way I envisioned when i initially rolled town. that is not your fault, and it doesn't mean the way that we chose to play was wrong - my opinion differs from yours.

i think pacifist is the worst path because of what i outlined - it doesn't mean i think it is super easy for scum to win or that following it is anti-town like you seem to be implying, it simply means that i think it's the worst path.

[Nachomamma8]

i don't like that im not killed

something is wrong here

HURT: nacho

if you were right, you would be dead.
you're wrong, that's why you were alive.

[Nachomamma8]

i've explained my point of view more thoroughly than necessary and am not interested in continuing this exchange for there are more productive things i need to do before sleep takes me away. i tried to rebel against the man but i lost. i'm chilling out and going with the flow as a result.

you can take this as a learning experience and read me better in the future OR you can blame me for the misread post-game, but all of the pieces of the puzzle to determining my alignment are in your hands. if i were scum, nymph wouldn't be dead and you wouldn't be alive.

[Nachomamma8]

H

E

Y

E

V

E

R

Y

B

O

D

Y

O

V

E

R

S

O

U

L

I

S

T

O

W

N

(a story of a distinctive scum vs town game)

There are two qualities of Oversoul's town game that are present here that I don't think Oversoul can emulate when he is scum. I will only be using his most recent scumgame as a comparison because I'm not doing meta research, I'm simply using real-world examples to make a point. I heavily encourage you, dear reader, to do some research of your own to check my work and better understand my points.

EXHIBIT A: OVERSOUL CANNOT DEAL WITH PRESSURE AS SCUM WITH THE SAME CONFIDENCE HE DOES AS TOWN

When Oversoul is scumread as town, he gets aggressive and gains confidence - he is unafraid of dealing with pressure as town and as a result shuts pressure down/pushes back immediately, whereas as scum he is always sort of expecting to get caught and so there's never ever the same fire as opposed to when he's pushes as town, and this is especially magnified when he's dealing with players who are able to correctly scumread and get him lynched quickly.

First, his reaction to some early pressure in his recent scum game -

Spoiler: this post will be stupid hard to read if i don't do this!

VOTE: oversoul

VOTE: Oversoul

You two masons or what?

VOTE: Oversoul

You can skim the game itself if you'd like, but the gist of what happens is Oversoul gets voted by a couple people, decides to self-vote as paint it as a reaction test so that later down the road he can vote LUV and not the scarier of the pair who voted him. Instead of shutting the push down and hitting back and anyone and everyone who scumreads him (exaggeration, but), Oversoul asks a bunch of questions so he looks like he has a reason to vote LUV, then votes LUV for reasons that are still remarkably unclear.

Contrast that with a couple things that happened this game.

1)

Spoiler: wisdom would be dead if i was scum!

oversoul on the other hand looks scummy so far

mmmm no

I’m obvtown and this is a game I don’t even need to make myself obvtown in

youre certainly not obvtown
and you have the capability to be.

I am certainly obvtown, but like I said it isn’t going to be an issue this game

I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.

It’s ok. Becoming obvtown is the only thing I can do. I can’t play scum, I can’t scumhunt, but I can obvtown

The main reason I like the quick exchange with Wisdom is because of how early it was. Imagine being nervous being scum, expecting to get caught immediately, getting caught immediately. Instead of going for something cute, Oversoul shuts him down and is completely comfortable declaring himself obvtown on page 2 instead - don't think this ever happens if he's scum here. I like the "this isn't going to be an issue this game" because it's not only another great example of confidence carrying himself that just wouldn't be present if he was scum, but it's also setting up expectations that will bit him in the ass if scum down the road, and that scares scum!Oversoul. Second piece here is that I actually like his lines of scumhunting on the "big three - he challenged me on my Chemist scumread when I provided it for reasons that made sense to me, and currently is saying that there's scum in the group of people that could most plausibly catch him. It's a risk he doesn't have to take as scum at all, but because he's town and trying to sort the game, he does it without thinking.

EXHIBIT B: OVERSOUL IS POSTING

Don't know why he's still incapable of posting consistently as scum but he is! Not many people you can pull the "welp they're here so they're town card" on, but Oversoul is most certainly one of them.

EXHIBIT C: OVERSOUL IS A HIGH SCHOOL MATH STUDENT WHEN SCUM

For whatever reason, Oversoul as scum is addicted to showing how he's formed certain thought processes so he can make sure his ass is covered. When he is town, he doesn't give a fuck. In the first example I gave, Oversoul devised a "reaction test" that he didn't explain worth a shit and asked bunch of weird, useless questions so he could find a way to get a vote on the townie he wanted to vote. Here, Oversoul is all over the place - he will explain his reasoning, sure, but there's not a moment in his play where the read comes before the reasons while that's a hallmark of his scum game.

[Nachomamma8]

so even if i accept everything else

how is sparing oversoul the key to turning this, in your opinion, bad gamestate, around?

1) sparing oversoul isn't the key to turning everything around, he's just my strongest townread currently so i'd like to spare him.

2) it's not a

bad

gamestate per se. it's not my favorite but it's not toxic or making want to shoot someone or something, and it won't change until a bunch of people not named Wisdom or Elements or Oversoul put something more substantive in the thread like i'm trying to do. the gamestate is more a frying pan when i wanted to cook soup. frying pans aren't inherently worse than pots but i can't do what i wanted to do with a frying pan.

[Nachomamma8]

I loved the setup. I loved the playerlist overall. The game itself was... questionable?

I think one of the major strengths of the setup is that it very highly rewards a town that is engaged in the beginning and it very highly rewards a town that coordinates well together. We didn't do that. In particular, feel the constant quickhammers obliterated the opportunity for either side to actually get on a roll and would heavily encourage everyone involved not to do something like that in general. It frustrates me in particular because it's disrespectful - to the person you're quickhammering, of course, but also to everyone else who might want to contribute, and it's incredibly pro-scum to cut off the discussion in the way that it happened - I wanted to post about my townread on Elements which possibly changes the flow of 3p LyLo, giving me more time to post means that there's a chance for me to town myself which means maybe I don't get lynched instead of killed, making Oversoul keep up in a decently paced game means that he doesn't get to lurk as much as he did here, etc.

I think the "double barrel idea" is a great one and also would make the neutral route a bit more interesting although I love the idea of the neutral route in general - seeing towns attempt to figure out whether they're getting better townreads or better scumreads and follow that route accordingly would be pretty interesting.

Pops, if you run a .3 please let me know - would love to play!

[Nachomamma8]

Between this and Baton Pass, it is sufficient to say that no one knows how to read me.

HmmmmMMMMmmmMMMM