Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 - Snowdin Snowdown

[Wisdom]

Like there are myriads of reasons you keep me alive, some of which i already outlined. And they even go beyond logic. It can be as simple as "I want to endgame Wisdom. We're not killing him."

[Nachomamma8]

i've explained my point of view more thoroughly than necessary and am not interested in continuing this exchange for there are more productive things i need to do before sleep takes me away. i tried to rebel against the man but i lost. i'm chilling out and going with the flow as a result.

you can take this as a learning experience and read me better in the future OR you can blame me for the misread post-game, but all of the pieces of the puzzle to determining my alignment are in your hands. if i were scum, nymph wouldn't be dead and you wouldn't be alive.

[Wisdom]

so even if i accept everything else

how is sparing oversoul the key to turning this, in your opinion, bad gamestate, around?

[Nachomamma8]

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(a story of a distinctive scum vs town game)

There are two qualities of Oversoul's town game that are present here that I don't think Oversoul can emulate when he is scum. I will only be using his most recent scumgame as a comparison because I'm not doing meta research, I'm simply using real-world examples to make a point. I heavily encourage you, dear reader, to do some research of your own to check my work and better understand my points.

EXHIBIT A: OVERSOUL CANNOT DEAL WITH PRESSURE AS SCUM WITH THE SAME CONFIDENCE HE DOES AS TOWN

When Oversoul is scumread as town, he gets aggressive and gains confidence - he is unafraid of dealing with pressure as town and as a result shuts pressure down/pushes back immediately, whereas as scum he is always sort of expecting to get caught and so there's never ever the same fire as opposed to when he's pushes as town, and this is especially magnified when he's dealing with players who are able to correctly scumread and get him lynched quickly.

First, his reaction to some early pressure in his recent scum game -

Spoiler: this post will be stupid hard to read if i don't do this!

VOTE: oversoul

VOTE: Oversoul

You two masons or what?

VOTE: Oversoul

You can skim the game itself if you'd like, but the gist of what happens is Oversoul gets voted by a couple people, decides to self-vote as paint it as a reaction test so that later down the road he can vote LUV and not the scarier of the pair who voted him. Instead of shutting the push down and hitting back and anyone and everyone who scumreads him (exaggeration, but), Oversoul asks a bunch of questions so he looks like he has a reason to vote LUV, then votes LUV for reasons that are still remarkably unclear.

Contrast that with a couple things that happened this game.

1)

Spoiler: wisdom would be dead if i was scum!

oversoul on the other hand looks scummy so far

mmmm no

I’m obvtown and this is a game I don’t even need to make myself obvtown in

youre certainly not obvtown
and you have the capability to be.

I am certainly obvtown, but like I said it isn’t going to be an issue this game

I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.

It’s ok. Becoming obvtown is the only thing I can do. I can’t play scum, I can’t scumhunt, but I can obvtown

The main reason I like the quick exchange with Wisdom is because of how early it was. Imagine being nervous being scum, expecting to get caught immediately, getting caught immediately. Instead of going for something cute, Oversoul shuts him down and is completely comfortable declaring himself obvtown on page 2 instead - don't think this ever happens if he's scum here. I like the "this isn't going to be an issue this game" because it's not only another great example of confidence carrying himself that just wouldn't be present if he was scum, but it's also setting up expectations that will bit him in the ass if scum down the road, and that scares scum!Oversoul. Second piece here is that I actually like his lines of scumhunting on the "big three - he challenged me on my Chemist scumread when I provided it for reasons that made sense to me, and currently is saying that there's scum in the group of people that could most plausibly catch him. It's a risk he doesn't have to take as scum at all, but because he's town and trying to sort the game, he does it without thinking.

EXHIBIT B: OVERSOUL IS POSTING

Don't know why he's still incapable of posting consistently as scum but he is! Not many people you can pull the "welp they're here so they're town card" on, but Oversoul is most certainly one of them.

EXHIBIT C: OVERSOUL IS A HIGH SCHOOL MATH STUDENT WHEN SCUM

For whatever reason, Oversoul as scum is addicted to showing how he's formed certain thought processes so he can make sure his ass is covered. When he is town, he doesn't give a fuck. In the first example I gave, Oversoul devised a "reaction test" that he didn't explain worth a shit and asked bunch of weird, useless questions so he could find a way to get a vote on the townie he wanted to vote. Here, Oversoul is all over the place - he will explain his reasoning, sure, but there's not a moment in his play where the read comes before the reasons while that's a hallmark of his scum game.

[Nachomamma8]

so even if i accept everything else

how is sparing oversoul the key to turning this, in your opinion, bad gamestate, around?

1) sparing oversoul isn't the key to turning everything around, he's just my strongest townread currently so i'd like to spare him.

2) it's not a

bad

gamestate per se. it's not my favorite but it's not toxic or making want to shoot someone or something, and it won't change until a bunch of people not named Wisdom or Elements or Oversoul put something more substantive in the thread like i'm trying to do. the gamestate is more a frying pan when i wanted to cook soup. frying pans aren't inherently worse than pots but i can't do what i wanted to do with a frying pan.

[mastina]

HEAL: Oversoul
I'll bite.

[Wisdom]

srsly now?

[Chemist1422]

I feel like I missed something

What’s the argument for pacifist

[Xayah]

whats your nacho read

It’s not really a thing at the moment. I kinda gave him a day 1 pass because I know Nachos a really good player that if he’s town will give some results. I’ve been pretty focused on other people. I did see he made a ton of posts that I’ll have to read so that’ll change hopefully soon.

Ele how do you get from point A to B? I get that your meta is supposed to be 'flip your stuff around a ton' but. Well I'll let you answer before I lead this somewhere.

More seriously. To apply more pressure to nacho so they feel like they could be a viable lynch target etc you know how the game works, and because I doubt anyone is going to follow my wisdom vote. At least for now.

You know, saying your vote is purely for pressure kinda defeats the purpose of a pressure vote.

I think sparing is actually the better move than lynching. If we have spared scum already and then lynch a townie we essentially just lose

In other news, water is wet. I don’t really remember you having any problem with the Rakan or Gin lynch so why this outlook? We should be lynching today for information. We don’t lose if we spared a scum. I really don’t get this outlook. Can you explain it to me more?

[Xayah]

My thought is that the best way to play the game is from a neutral standpoint; you can form a strong towncore by attempting to hunt together and taking a couple shots at the scumteam and getting a ton of information early in the game (and because of the investigative aspect, scum are put in a shit position in having to try to avoid getting TOO much towncred or it fucks them later), which requires slowing down, posting a lot of content early game, engaging and listening to people. That didn't happen.

I don’t remember you really trying to do this. Like, I understand you were afk/busy or whatever. But I don’t recall you trying to push this outlook that much and that’s where I have issue.

I think the pacifist line is the poorest for two reasons. The first is that the scum strategy to play it is remarkably straightforward - kill active people until the game is dead or the voices alive are bad influences. You can fake distance your partners p much all you like because you won't be forced to go through with it, and you don't have to attack townies and deal with righteous fury because you're sparing people and pushing back against momentum usually isn't worth it. Secondly, there are no real chances to reassess. Generally, when I am in a tunnel, it takes a whole lot of work to pull me out of it, but you can push people hard enough where they can produce genuine reactions and everything's all good. However, if I'm townreading scum pretty strongly, it's much harder to pull me out - scum usually don't super fuck up in thread, so the only way I'm able to truly reassess is when my working POE is proven wrong. Pacifist doesn't allow for either of those so we just gotta hope that we didn't fuck up in initial reads and that's it.

Then we have this. This is all 100% true and it’s why this route is pretty meh. I guess I have the same question for you that I do oversoul. What’s your feel on Rakan/Ginngie? I would understand this viewpoint if you were hard scumreading some of them, but I think the only one who was sucmreading someone in the group was Mastina. You’re basically saying let us put our blind faith and keep on going. When we can very well kill and be in a fine spot. I’m just confused for the most part.

unless i was a pacifist supporter so you felt safe

i felt safe with someone who was calling me scum and shutting me down at every turn?
do you really believe that?

Are you really trying to claim that scum you is stubborn enough to take full control of the night kills considering how hard you were lurking? Like if you thought your partner could win you would you let them pick the nightkill or no?

[Xayah]

HEAL: Wisdom
HURT: Nacho

Regardless we should be hurting/healing in these although I do think hurt>heal today. People going for the heal route is so????????????? Like what is wrong with you

[popsofctown]

Spoiler: Error VC

Spare Votecount 3.<3

Nachomamma8 -

Elements ------

mastina --------

Xayah ---------

Oversoul ------

(4)

Oversoul, Nachomamma8, mastina, Xayah

Wisdom -

Chemist1422 -

Not sparing:

- (3) Elements, Wisdom, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.<3

Nachomamma8 -

(2)

Wisdom, Elements

Elements -----

mastina -

Xayah -

Oversoul ----

Wisdom -

Chemist1422 -

Not Fighting:

- (5) Nachomamma8, mastina, Xayah, Wisdom, Chemist1422

<3<3<3<3

3>3>

While Nachomamma8 was monologuing, Xayah was sitting on the ground and polishing Oversoul's armor using one of Grillby's rags. Xayah was the only one around who wore armor, so she knew about its maintenance and care, and so she helped Oversoul from time to time this way. Oversoul wasn't one of Xayah's adoring fans, but perhaps that was somehow what earned him the favoritism.
As Nachomamma8's rant continued, he began cursing Nymph's murder for being cowardly, for targeting someone small and weak who couldn't fight back, and for harming someone so innocent. Xayah felt goosebumps spread across her gills as she looked at the littlest knight she'd ever met. Yeah, Nymph was small. Chennisden had been small too..
"Hey, Oversoul. You're still a fan of that treehouse place, right?"
Oversoul nodded so vigorously his helmet clanked and jangled, falling into a position where he could no longer see.
"We can eat fruit snacks and Ginngie will make us parlor mints and we can throw parties and it's so high it's like a lookout and every night will be a slumber party and maybe some birds will sing us songs and we can sing along and we could have just enough room to make a foursquare court and Chemist1422 can provide us balls to use and on Tuesdays we can have Nice Cream parties except on a Tuesday when it's too cold-"
Xayah hurled a spear that she hooked along the back of Oversoul's armor with all her strength, and watched it sail across the sky. The other monsters heard the

whizz

as she let loose, but were too late to stop her. When the knight-and-spear finally landed in the trees nearly a mile away, a cloud of leaves fluttered and marked where Oversoul had landed.
Every monster opened their mouth to comment, then every monster shut their mouth before making a comment, knowing better than to question the leader of the Royal Guard.

Oversoul has been

spared

[/area][/b]

Night actions are due in:
(expired on 2019-10-25 19:06:42)

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 3.2

Nachomamma8 -

Elements ------

mastina --------

Xayah ---------

Oversoul ------

(3)

Oversoul, Nachomamma8, mastina

Wisdom -

(1)

Xayah

Chemist1422 -

Not sparing:

- (3) Elements, Wisdom, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.2

Nachomamma8 -

(3)

Wisdom, Elements, Xayah,

Elements -----

mastina -

Xayah -

Oversoul ----

Wisdom -

Chemist1422 -

Not Fighting:

- (5) mastina, Nachomamma8, Wisdom, Chemist1422

<3<3<3<3

3>3>3>

(expired on 2019-10-31 21:06:42)

[popsofctown]

The erroneous VC for

Whimsicott

Oversoul should only heighten awareness of L-1 rather than diminish it, so votes will not be reset

[Chemist1422]

@mod

Nacho isn't self-voting for Fight lol

[Chemist1422]

I...don't really want Oversoul spared.

HURT: Nacho

I only trust myself to do stupid stuff, none of y'all

Sorry if this is wrong but I feel more comfortable about it than sparing Over

[Chemist1422]

Like

They're at L-1 because of a towncase by the person we want to kill

[popsofctown]

The thread is locked for an undisclosed reason (unrelated to "Error VC").

[popsofctown]

the worst has been added as a Backup Mod

[popsofctown]

Spare Votecount 3.3>

Nachomamma8 -

Elements ------

mastina --------

Xayah ---------

Oversoul ------

(3)

Oversoul, Nachomamma8, mastina

Wisdom --------

(1)

Xayah

Chemist1422 -

Not sparing:

- (3) Elements, Wisdom, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.3>

Nachomamma8 -

(4)

Wisdom, Elements, Xayah, Chemist1422

Elements -----

mastina -

Xayah -

Oversoul ----

Wisdom -

Chemist1422 -

Not Fighting:

- (3) mastina, Nachomamma8, Wisdom

Chemist1422 floated behind Nachomamma8 as Nachomamma8 kept ranting and screaming, crying for unity and mercy in the face of Nymph's death. The toothy Chemist1422 cocked his head left and cocked his head right, assessing Nachomamma8's behavior.

He began to use his orbs to write messages in the air that the other monsters could see, right behind Nachomamma8.

Theatrics

Guilt

Short sleeves are "in" this year, remember how he wants to rebel against everything? How did I get so much better with skywriting lately, by the bye?"

The other monsters slowly nodded at each of his points. Nachomamma8 thought they were nodding at him, and grew more and more excited with his tirade. "..and let me tell you about overdue book fees! They play a big part in this too!.."
Chemist took the orbs and pulled them together into a heated, energetic mass, shaped like an angel, holding it just behind Nachomamma8.
At his cue, all the monsters pushed an unuspecting Nachomamma8 into the heat in synch, killing him on the spot. Yet when his charred body fell onto the ground, his wing brushed against the bucket, and every single feather stuck conspicuously to the vessel. Wait.. how could he have done it, then?

Spoiler: Nachomamma8 Role PM

You are

Chilldrake, Vanilla Townie

Your flavor has no game impact. Your primary powers are your voice and your vote.
To confirm, tell me your rolename, and acknowledge that the mafia have daytalk (as they do).

You brought some friends along, cool guy. Because friendship is the only thing more important than rebelling.

Nachomamma8 has been

fought.

<3<3<3<3

3>3>3>3>

(expired on 2019-10-25 23:06:42)

[popsofctown]

Everyone showed up to the town square in the morning, ready to argue about what to do next. Those who had insisted that working on the treehouse further was still an option had materials in hand; others had balled fists.
Everyone noticed something was different about the holiday tree. It had been decorated differently. Some of its former ornaments had been removed, and instead had been replaced with tiny grey triangles.
"That's weird."
"That's not very cheery."
"Pretty ugly."
Chemist1422 noticed that a comment seemed to be missing, from someone who rather enjoyed the holiday tree. But he was pretty sure he knew the problem. He frontflipped towards the tree and gave it a swift kick, causing the triangle ornaments to shake and sway.
But there was still no low pitched, growling complaint about how ugly they were. Chemist1422 looked around, and found someone was missing.
Chemist1422 got goosebumps, and began to float towards the missing monster's home, dropping tiny orbs like breadcrumbs encouraging the others to follow.
When he opened the door to his home, he saw a ghastly sight: on the bed Wisdom slept on every night, huge gray spikes had been placed and Wisdom was impaled on them.

Spoiler: Wisdom role PM

You are

Doggo, a Vanilla Townie

Your flavor has no game impact. Your primary powers are your voice and your vote.
To confirm, tell me your rolename, and acknowledge that the mafia have daytalk (as they do).

If you can't solve the riddle right in front of you.. it might kill you

"The spikes... Weren't moving..." Chemist1422 mused.
"Clearly violence begets more violence."
"No, the only thing we did wrong is going after the wrong person."
All the monsters were gesturing and arguing, and Wisdom's lifeless eyes were looking right at them. But Wisdom saw nothing. But this time, it was because it was Wisdom who was perfectly still.

With five alive and unspared, it takes three votes to make a decision.

(expired on 2019-11-01 23:06:42)

[mastina]

srsly now?

As I was GOING to say before SOMEONE decided to lolhammer Nacho and cause the thread to be locked literally five minutes before I could post...

Yes, seriously.

We don't have Toriel--if we did, then chennisden would've lived through N1.
We couldn't use the vig due to D1 and the vig is a role which shouldn't have been used anyway.

So that meant that there was only one possible, and useful, role; the even night cop.

This was one of the reasons why on D2 I was advocating for the lynch, because the even night cop isn't going to live through today and tonight. So literally the only chance the even night cop would get to investigated was N2.

Except...
...We fucking spared on D2, so the even night cop couldn't act.
So, if we weren't going to use the even night cop and had healed twice.
We should've just committed and all-inned on going for the pacifist ending.

Hurting yesterday was stupid, especially given one crucial factor which would've made the pacifist ending viable:
Nymph was the nightkill.
Nymph was a player I am pretty sure nobody in the game was townreading--and in fact, I was strongly scumreading Nymph and was trying to lynch Nymph.
Yet the scum killed Nymph, who wasn't being townread by anyone and who I would've happily mislynched.
So the question becomes...why kill Nymph?

The only answer that I can come up with is, "scum were PR hunting".
But again, the question would be...with two spares, WHY would scum be PR hunting, especially if one scum was already spared? They're not dumb, they knew there wasn't a doctor because their chennisden nightkill succeeded when it wouldn't have with any doctor in the game.
They knew that whoever the PR was, due to the D2 spare, they were worthless.
The only thing the PR would give would be, themselves being conftown.

Why would scum be particularly afraid of conftown?

If they were worried that the town could pull off a pacifist victory.
Which means.
In spite of my concern.
Rakan's town.
And Ginngie's obviously also town.
Which meant that yesterday, if we spared town and our PR lived to see today...we'd have won the game in the pacifist route.

Which is why I wanted to spare Oversoul.
Regardless of Nacho's alignment, Oversoul was going to be town.
If Nacho was scum, he wasn't going to be hard-advocating for the spare of his scumbuddy especially knowing that there would be a scum revealed when reaching the core since he wouldn't also be spared.
If Nacho was town, like I thought he was (he was my strongest townread), then his case was one which I believe has merit.

So, yes.
This means that right now.
I think Oversoul is town.
I know I am town.
And I fully believe that the two scum are in {Xayah, Elements, Chemist}.

So.
HEAL: Oversoul.
I believe we do this, reveal that we had zero scum spared, and if we have a cop have them investigate in the above three, and lynch from there after reaching the core.

[Chemist1422]

It wasn't a lolhammer

It was a calculated hammer to stop someone from hammering Oversoul

[Xayah]

Mastina let me know when you're around. I want to talk to you in live conversation because going back and forth on walls is gonna be bleh and something I don't care for

[Oversoul]

I am sorry that I have been awol. I will be here late today and late tomorrow
But I am somewhat surprised about what has all happened yesterday because it felt like it happened very quickly