Mini Normal 2107 (Game Over)

[Wimpy]

VOTE: vork

[Wimpy]

Wimpy, why?

Policy

[Wimpy]

Wimpy, why?

Policy

You're not another one of these people that wont scum hunt on day 1 are you ?

No but I’m not really into rvs voting, rvs was basically over, and I honestly can’t work with anyone who thinks it’s ok to self vote so I figured that’s the best place for it.

[Wimpy]

I wouldn’t care. You do you man.

[Wimpy]

I can’t really have a problem with you refusing to work with me because I’m refusing to work with vork.

[Wimpy]

This is going to be a long game.

[Wimpy]

This is going to be a long game.

We already have one scum why u say this

We don’t have any scum yet and there’s multiple people already rubbing me the wrong way which is going to make working together difficult

[Wimpy]

Unfortunately you’ve already established you have poor decision making ability. I can’t trust your opinions.

[Wimpy]

I’m not a fan of pretending to have found scum so early.

[Wimpy]

If RVS is "basically over" that means we are doing serious votes

You are voting Vortuka for policy - lynch self voters - which means you dont find him scummy, you just can't work with him - this wouldnt usually be a serious vote, more of just an RVS reaction test that doesn't acheive anything in the long run

Why are you trying to put words into my mouth?
Why are you trying to change how I’m playing?

I do think self votes are scummy hence the policy. You don’t establish a policy lynch policy over things you don’t think are scummy.

If you don’t like my vote, vote me. If you think I should vote somebody else, convince me.

[Wimpy]

@profi
It's all valid, but he won't budge, so why bother. Call him our VI and move down the roster.
@wimpy
Have you seen his 'i quickhammer @l1 k' shit and do you think it comes from town?

You can’t say I won’t budge or not. And insulting me isn’t appreciated. Please don’t do it again.

I have seen town say that before. So it’s nai.

Nobody has done anything AI yet. It’ll take pages and pages to get an accurate read and even then otcan be wrong. At this point a bunch of gorillas pounding their chests is all I see so far.

I do actually have a gut ping on somebody but it’s too early to show my hand.

[Wimpy]

I didn’t even realize it was a game rule. I just thought it was a common sense one.

I do find it funny that the guy who self voted has the nerve to insult me.

[Wimpy]

Sorry- I thought we opened the floor to colorful language so I responded in kind.

What I said was fact. What you said is an insult.
As pointed out there is a rule against playing against your win condition and self voting is playing against your win condition.

[Wimpy]

In post #6? When it generated such useful discussion and a potential read on a player?
Do better

You haven’t provided useful discussion though. You’ve also made it impossible for me to accurately read at least one player.

I’d say if you are town you’ve done more harm than good. It’s awesome if you gained something but if you’re town you’ve alienated one of your teammates. Somebody who you may need as an ally at some point.

[Wimpy]

I’ve wasted enough breath on vork. Imma sit back and monitor things for a while. If anyone else has questions I’m around.

[Wimpy]

False.
What you said was "wrong" hence not a fact:

actually there is a game rule that supports what I said IS a fact.

*looks at this exchange*
mmk

This exchange has produced nothing useful at all. The only thing it has done is annoyed me even more than I already am and I still don't know if you are town or scum.

[Wimpy]

why do people think quick hammers are bad? Like why is wake getting shit for that statement?

[Wimpy]

yo wimpy, why you so angsty? Take a chill pill my dude.
VOTE: Elements
It's not counter win condition to vote yourself at this stage. There are no wagons, there's no possibility to be lynched from it. It generated discussion which is pro town. I think you should

I am angsty by nature. anxiety sucks ass

We can agree to disagree about the win con stuff.

[Wimpy]

I think you should vote yourself. It's very liberating.

[Wimpy]

why do people think quick hammers are bad? Like why is wake getting shit for that statement?

Hmmmmmmmmm how many games have you played so far

too many to count

[Wimpy]

so nobody is going to actually answer my question?

[Wimpy]

I mean like if wake actually quick hammered somebody and we were having this discussion day 2 that would be something else but just cause somebody says they will doesn't mean they actually will.

The difference between what i am doing vs the people voting wake is I am not trying to pretend my vote is something more than it actually is. The votes on Wake are clearly policy votes. Just because you say you think he is scum doesn't mean he actually is and his stance on quick hammers doesn't confirm his alignment.

Can people at least be honest with what they are doing? Hiding your intentions makes me trust you less.

[Wimpy]

answered your question, so does that mean I lied?!

huh? Who said anything about lying?

[Wimpy]

Apparently this is a bad answer. I can do better but...
Spoiler:

so according to you, I am not allowed to accuse you of playing against your win condition because self voting in rvs doesn't mean you will self vote to end the day

BUT

You have issues with wake saying he will do something but have no idea if he actually will?


seems a bit hypocritical to me

[Wimpy]

So you're saying we shouldn't vote our scum reads?

idk how you got that from what I said

[Wimpy]

You said you don't like the votes on wake because they're policy votes. So you don't think they should be voting wake. They say they scum read wake. Ergo you don't think they should be voting their scum read.

I think you are reaching too hard here.

Wake's statement, if he actually goes through with it is anti-town. Him making that statement doesn't make him scum and I don't believe anyone legit scum reads wake based on that statement alone.

[Wimpy]

Just ignore wimpy you are not going anywhere with this

I don't think people need to ignore me but we should definitely stop talking about policy lynch voting.

[Wimpy]

VOTE: saudade

[Wimpy]

I think you are wrong

noted, I don't agree that I am wrong though. glad we had this talk. it's been really productive...

[Wimpy]

wake88: statement is null

This basically what I was trying to say

[Wimpy]

is not a scum tell, especially during RVS

Nobody said it was, so what is the point of making this statement?

[Wimpy]

zote, can you please stop referring to yourself in the third person?

[Wimpy]

Even still, it was clearly a joke vote and you seemed eager to take opportunity of that.

PEDIT: No

you clearly don't know what policy lynching means


VOTE: Zote

[Wimpy]

If wake flips town the Zote could be scum here

why? I don't see how you make that connection

[Wimpy]

that's a good explanation. There is hope for you yet

[Wimpy]

Let's assume a realistic probability that me and Saudade haven't caught scum within like the first page or 2..

At this point a bunch of gorillas pounding their chests is all I see so far.

like I said earlier...

Do you have an actual reason to scum read wake? I mean a good one?

Anyone who says that statement he made makes him scum loses credibitly so let's drop that nonsense already and get to legit scum hunting.

[Wimpy]

alimdia's question was worded in a such a way that it seemed like it was in defense of it.

no it doesn't.

if somebody says "I have seen this before and it came from scum"

the very logical question to follow up that statement is

"Have you ever seen town do it"

Don't you want to know if saudade and profli have ever seen town do that? if no why not? you should imo

[Wimpy]

That was also page 1, so still the best thing to push at the time. If he had said he would self hammer, I would have been like "hes just making a point, he accepts that even in his death town, including him can still win, thats cool"

But by saying he wouldnt do it, it makes me think "scum can't really make that sacrafice, obviously they are the minority and suiciding yourself on day 1 would be nuts" this guy is scared to die and those reasons make sense so lets have a look at him...

I don't really think him saying he won't self hammer is Ai either though. Town shouldn't ever self hammer

[Wimpy]

but if you dont go whole hog at your scum reads how do you get people to trip over themselves and give the game away for us to catch them?

so wait. You are saying you seriously scum read wake for that statement? like seriously?

[Wimpy]

but if you dont go whole hog at your scum reads how do you get people to trip over themselves and give the game away for us to catch them?

so wait. You are saying you seriously scum read wake for that statement? like seriously?

please answer profili

[Wimpy]

Wake do you have an alt named havo?

[Wimpy]

Wanna guess what other person I know said the exact same line he did and turned out to be scum?

This is also why I am voting - I caught someone saying the exact same line.

Umm how many times has someone said the exact same line but turned out to be town vs scum?

@Saudade, answer this q as well please.

question does not make sense - we are looking at a solitary person making a statement on their own and I've encountered it to be a scum thing before... there isn't anyone else for it to be Vs

you have also encountered it to be town twice before.

so how do you determine scum or town saying it?

p.edit - ok great. that makes things more interesting. Thank you wake

VOTE: profli

[Wimpy]

Questions like these really make you lose credibility in my eyes

blindly believing a mason claim and self voting makes you lose credibility but that hasn't stopped you

[Wimpy]

His contributions have been of the highest quality.

kind of hypocritical don't you think? You haven't provided any useful content.

[Wimpy]

For those playing at home, Here are the two games where town player says the same thing as wake,

viewtopic.php?p=9922853#p9922853
viewtopic.php?p=9854602#p9854602

I really need to hear a GOOD explanation from profli as to why he is so quick to scum read wake for it when he has seen town do it twice and thus making it null as alidade and myself have pointed out.

[Wimpy]

^iso havo btw

[Wimpy]

in my experience only I have said it and I rolled scum that game.
so one to zero

But town does it also.

That makes the action null.

What else besides that do you have to scum read wake? You should have something better.

[Wimpy]

His claim is not why I townread him

Why do you town read him?

[Wimpy]

That's not my experience, no.

That’s a very narrow minded way to play.

Plus I just provided examples so while that doesn’t tie into your personal experience, it’s Information you should consider if you are town and genuinely trying to find scum.

[Wimpy]

this don't mean jack shit if wake only says it as scum. you should be checking his game for when he's said it.

I haven’t seen anyone make the argument that he only makes that comment as scum.

I don’t need to check his games to know the statement is null regardless who says it.

The burden of proof is on whoever is bold enough to claim wake only says that as scum.

I’ve proven my argument that it’s null because town say it also.

Those who say wake is scum now how to prove their argument and I don’t think they can

[Wimpy]

And no I'm not going to teach you how to play the game, that's what newbie games are for

Tbh if you are actually town this game you need to learn how to play not me.

[Wimpy]

Why should I have something better? have you read his posts?

Yes. Everything he’s posted is null.

Others have posted scummier things but you’ve ignored those.

[Wimpy]

I am mason

Suppose its null, he still havent expressed ANY intention to game solve, that alone is good enough for a viable wagon.

So say you want to policy lynch him. Why hide that?

[Wimpy]

ignore the first quote. Was going to say something but it’s not worth it.

[Wimpy]

I came to play mafia. Not argue over stupid stuff.

When people want to start scum hunting let me know.

[Wimpy]

Which we've already demonstrated and you've only *handwaved* away

Where is this proof?
I haven’t seen anyone prove that wake only says that as scum. Show me and I’ll drop it

[Wimpy]

You've cherrypicked and found yourself a statistically irrelevant sample size

so it's bad for me but it's ok for saudade and profli to cherry pick? how does that work exactly?

wake only says that as scum

Oh we've also moved the goalposts while we were at it.
My bad

do you not read context?

i didn't move the goal posts. Elements did.

this don't mean jack shit if wake only says it as scum. you should be checking his game for when he's said it

This is where elements has introduced wake only does this as scum. He says I should be the one checking it but why? I am not the one making the argument that wake is scum.

You accuse me of cherry picking but that is basically what you just did in post 204.

[Wimpy]

Let's play out the conversation in context shall we?

this don't mean jack shit if wake only says it as scum. you should be checking his game for when he's said it.

I haven’t seen anyone make the argument that he only makes that comment as scum.

I don’t need to check his games to know the statement is null regardless who says it.

The burden of proof is on whoever is bold enough to claim wake only says that as scum.

In post 187, Wimpy wrote:
The burden of proof is on

Which we've already demonstrated and you've only *handwaved* away

Which we've already demonstrated and you've only *handwaved* away

Where is this proof?
I haven’t seen anyone prove that wake only says that as scum. Show me and I’ll drop it

wake only says that as scum

Oh we've also moved the goalposts while we were at it.
My bad

So vork

Elements brought up wake only doing it as scum
I said nobody made that claim that he only does as scum. If somebody wants to make that claim, they have to prove it
You said somebody already has proved it
I asked where
you then accuse me of moving the goal posts.

You are the one who interjected yourself into the conversation between myself and elements and then you try to twist my words.

I didn't move any goal posts as you claim. I haven't cherry picked anything either.

All I am doing is trying to show what I have already said. The statement is null. I don't know why people want to argue about it. If people want to policy lynch wake for his opinion, that's fine go right ahead but don't pretend that it is alignment indicative because it isn't.

[Wimpy]

you're the one involved in this argument not me

but i'm not though. I have never once said wake is scum for his entry

[Wimpy]

this don't mean jack shit if wake only says it as scum. you should be checking his game for when he's said it.

and you did put yourself into that argument when you said this.

[Wimpy]

So here is where I stand in a nut shell and I will take a break. I really play this game to have fun, not argue and I feel like people are picking fights with me for trying to keep town on the right track.

My opinions

1. Wake's statement is null. We can't possibly tell wake's alignment is by him making it.
2. Just cause Saudade and Profli have seen scum do this in other games, doesn't mean everyone who does it is automatically scum
3. Saudade and profli both look bad for hard pushing something null, but given profli has two games where somebody as town did something similar and he is arguing wake is scum, makes me think profli is probably scum
4. Saudae - you can claim god of the universe, this doesn't mean that you actually are. Your mason claim doesn't do anything for me. I don't typically believe claims at face value. I need to look at the play and right now i don't see anything that demonstrates you as clear town
5. Vork - I have him as a scum lean. He seems like he wants to start arguments with me. He is also very hypocritical in his arguments. accusing me of stuff but not others who have done the same thing. Accusing me of cherry picking when his cherry picking argument is actually him cherry picking
6. Elements - I don't really like how he added in something new "wake only saying this as scum" but expects me to verify that. I actually did "search" wake's games and besides an ongoing one I can't really find an example of him making that statement. I use "search" because all I did was click his posts and type the word hammer. That is about as far as I am willing to go because to me the statement is telling of anyone's alignment

My lynch pool in order is

Profli, vork, elements, saudae

I actually think saudade is probably town and profli piled on in an attempt to buddy.

I won't be arguing anymore. It really fucks with my anxiety and makes the game not fun and I play to have fun.

It's lunch time and I have some work to do this afternoon so i will use this as a way to cool down.

Take care guys

[Wimpy]

To establish the ground rules- by cherry pick I mean the statistical anomaly you pulled out in post #166 to somehow justify your point.

null to me means something that can be done by both alignments. So where did I go wrong? If we disagree with the word null, that is fine.

but real talk. Why not ask Saudae and Profli to provide links to the games where scum did it? Why are you just taking their word for it?

[Wimpy]

It's been evidenced that you don't, so let's stop projecting shall we?

it has? where have I taken things out of context?

If you introduce bullshit to back up your point, it's only fair that we get to fling the same bullshit back at you.

1. can you please stop cursing at me?
2. somebody else introduced it. I was responding to them. Elements was the one mentioning wake only doing it as scum, i didn't. Am I not allowed to ask him to provide proof?

[Wimpy]

Elly has said that there exists a game where scum!wake does it. I don't even give a shit if he doesn't link it because wake would object loudly if elements is lying.

ok that is fine, but I do care. if wake did this as scum, i want to see. I tried to find something and stopped when I got to 2015 games.

As town it is our job to look through what is the truth and what isn't. if somebody is saying something is true, I would like to see it

THUS your argument is valid, if you can find (cherrypick) a game where WAKE HIMSELF pulls this as town.

why can't I just make the statement that Wake does this as town? You did just say elements doesn't have to provide a link so why would I have to?

You're trying to get us to prove a negative.

No I am not actually. I am just merely trying to show that wake's statement isn't alignment indicative because imo it isn't. Elements wants to say he only does it as scum then I will definitely consider that but I need proof. I can't blindly believe anyone in this game.

because
-We dislike the premises of your logic
-We dislike the validity of your logic
-Wake should be able to defend himself- why are you interjecting/white-knighting on his behalf?
-It's a solid case, and you're derailing it which is anti-town (inb4 self-voting is antitown hurrdurr)

this is terrible reasons to start an argument with me. We can play this game without getting hostile. You have insulted me and cursed at me and neither of these things are acceptable.

And stop saying "we". This isn't about we, this is about you.

You disagree with my premise, fine you are free to disagree. That still doesn't give you the right to argue with me. Do you think you are going to change my mind? Just agree to disagree and move on

You disagree with the validity of my logic? That's fine. If I had more time I am sure I could find more examples of games where town did it, but you for some reason have a close mind. i don't know why but we will just move this to the agree to disagree column and move on

I am actually not defending Wake or his actions. That would mean I agree with what he did and i don't. I would never want somebody to hammer without a claim or a chance to give final reads, but because he does, doesn't make him scum. This again isn't my opinion, this is FACT.

Why am i interjecting? because every player should be involved in this discussion. I want to find scum. I want to lynch scum. I don't think the reasons why Wake is being voted are any sort of indication of his alignment so I am speaking out. Why should I bite my tongue? Keeping my thoughts and opinions, no matter how unpopular isn't how to play this game.

I am not white knighting Wake but I could see why you might think that.

I am afraid to burst your bubble here but "Wake said he will hammer without a claim" and "he isn't producing useful content" is far from solid.

The reality is nobody has provided a solid case for their scum reads. I don't know if anyone ever will have enough to make a solid case, but based on everything said so far, there are definitely better people to lynch instead of wake.

[Wimpy]

Why are you providing links to the games I participated in when someone town did it and not presenting a balanced view of the games where scum did it

because i don't need to. You already claimed you found scum doing it and it was that reason why you think wake is scum.

The fact that you have seen town do it also and still hold the believe that wake is scum because of it shows dishonesty. This action should be null to you since you have seen both scum and town do it.

[Wimpy]

If self hammering is against the rules do you have a problem with scum self hammering at L-1 to limit discussion and hinder town - that’s pro-scum and if they didn’t do it would break the play to your win con rule

That underlying point is people are saying “rules are rules” but the rules conflict each other so let’s not get bogged down in that

yes I have a problem with anyone self voting.

[Wimpy]

Wimpy do you think there are 4 scum here ?

no

[Wimpy]

you have yet to demonstrate that town!wake would do the same thing.

I don't have to do that though. All I need to do is pull from my own experiences (like saudade and profli have done saying wake is scum) to know that town do this also.

[Wimpy]

No shit. You started the game by blindly policy'ing me, so ofc I want to know if you're stubborn town or scum. I'm well aware of how anti-town it is to continue engaging, but I'm already self-voting so let's see how long you last without conceding.

yes I started the game with a policy vote and for some reason that angered you. You have used that anger to argue with me about everything.

My point is I view Wake's statement as null and I disagree with anyone who says he is scum because of that statement. I would never be ok with a lynch on any player because they said that. Your point about Wake not contributing is valid but it is also not AI unfortunately.

I fail to see the double standard. If you've invoked something ridiculous, it's only fair that I use it against you to see whether it holds or not. Profi and saudade haven't done anything ridiculous that I can throw back in their face

See, I don't think I have done anything ridiculous and I absolutely believe both profli and saudade have. I will also throw you in this pile because of the reasons why you scum read wake. Scum reading wake for that statement is ridiculous to me.

this is too big brain for me. Where did I dig up a random statistically insignificant data point again?

See this is the problem. I didn't dig up a random statistically insignificant data point.

profli has seen both town and scum do this so i don't understand how he can strong scum read that act when it should be null.

[Wimpy]

We're criticizing your havo evidence and refusing to let it stand.

My havo evidence doesn't have anything to do with Wake's alignment. You do realize that right? I mean sure it can also be used to show that statement is NAI, but the point of me posting it was to show profli's dishonesty. Or at least what I perceived as dishonesty. I seem to be all alone on that ship also.

Ok fine I'll play: Does a game where town!wake pulls this exist? Yes or No?

I honestly don't know. I don't know if one where he is scum exists either. It doesn't matter. Why do you keep thinking it does? I don't need to find a game where wake as town said that to know that the statement is null. That is just me using common sense.

I think that's our issue: I don't blindly believe elly.
I think elly is a rational agent player and knows the consequences of lying. He has made an informed choice.

the problem here is I don't interpret elly's statement the same way you do. I don't think he was saying he has seen wake as scum do this. His post read as somebody else made that argument and he was going along with it. he also said I should check his games, which I have done and i can't find any completed games where wake has done it so if somebody is making that argument that wake has done it as scum, I would like a link.

The insulting- you have opened up the floor to that by questioning my decision-making back in #64

I am sorry if you felt I insulted you, but a person who decides to break the game and site rules and votes for themselves for the lulz doesn't show good decision making to me. Next time I will keep my opinion to myself. My apologies, but you calling me an idiot and cursing at me when you can just speak to me calmly is just not acceptable. I saw your apology. Thank you.

-not insulting at all
-says the person advocating for policy lynches

Saying you have a closed mind when you actually do isn't an insult. you have straight up refused to consider my counter points about wake.
I wasn't really advocating a policy lynch though. Placing a policy lynch vote in lieu of a RVS vote is what I did. But if you have issues with people advocating a policy lynch. Look at this list

Wake88 (3): Saudade, profii, Vorkuta

You can argue til you are blue in the face, but voting wake for saying he will hammer day 1 without a claim IS a policy lynch vote.

You are trying to convince people that wake's post about hammering day 1 is NULL and not scum.

I fixed your post to reflect what i am actually doing. Now that is fixed. What is the problem with that? Wake's post isn't AI. Never has been, never will be.

Did you know I have seen scum self vote in RVS before? If i used that to call you scum, that would make me no better than the three of you. I know better though cause it isn't AI. neither is Wake's comment.

So let's ignore the comment all together and focus on anything else wake does to determine his alignment ok?

You've dug yourself in a hole and thus contradicted yourself.
Pick 1 of the following
A: Wade was serious about quickhammering and has thus produced useful content. Which means all of our quickhammering arguments hold.
B: Wade wasn't being serious about quickhammering, and thus hasn't produced "useful" content. Which is a perfectly valid reason to scum read him considering how many opportunities he's had to contribute so far.
Have you ISO'd him recently? He's done nothing but invoke his rule over and over, and... uh.... whatever that recent thing was.

I don't think I have dug myself into a hole at all.

I will go with C: Wake was serious about quickhammering and hasn't provided useful content

But I don't actually know if wake was serious or not. I also don't really want to test him either. The proper way to handle this is, nobody put a player to L-1 until we are sure we want them lynched just in case wake is serious.

I don't disagree with you that wake has not provided content. I just disagree with you that not providing content = scum

Here's mine- stripped down to barebones, WITHOUT invoking any meta from any previous games whatsoever.
I still think it stands and was uncontested.

I don't consider that very solid personally.

I much prefer a player who says he is voting somebody for something that he has caught scum doing before but neglects to mention he has seen town do the same thing and can't really explain how he was able to make the determination. That's still not solid but I'd put mine higher than yours.

You have conceded that you cannot provide FACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE to back up your point.

Well two things.
1. if we are being technical, nobody has provided hard evidence that supports wake is scum because he said he would hammer somebody to get to l-1.
2. I have shown evidence that town also make that statement. That already is more than what anyone else has shown. Nobody has provided a link to a game where scum did it. It doesn't matter though cause i don't need to see that game to believe it happened. Just like i didn't need to provide evidence that town can make those statements also.

In mafia, you aren't going to have hard evidence.

You have lowered your standards to "pulling from your own experiences".

How is that lowering my standards? everyone's opinions about mafia are developed from personal experiences. Mine is no different. I am also trying to educate people because unless you/profil/saudade are the scum team, somebody is misguided and I have been trying to show that.

[Wimpy]

Self-hammering as scum = not anti-wincon for the reasons profii stated and it's a tactic I've seen scum use.

I disagree with this. any self vote/hammer is against win-con

[Wimpy]

You are telling me how to play?

idk how you take that as me telling you how to play. That is me telling you why i scum read you.

[Wimpy]

Its not about who is right in this argument its about making sure we lynch scum d1 and then do it again tomorrow

i love this sentiment, but considering who you are voting, it comes across as disingenuous.

If you honestly believe wake is scum, please tell me why?

[Wimpy]

Oh my god stop

how about you stop. Hard pushing a policy lynch isn't helping find scum.

[Wimpy]

how is it possible you have 62 posts and you have not done any scum hunting?

[Wimpy]

You don't even have a legit scum read that i can tell

[Wimpy]

as long as you are a player in this game I am going to talk to you. You want to make useless posts all game, that is fine but i am going to still try and determine your alignment and see if I can gather information from you that could be helpful.

[Wimpy]

Who are your scum reads and why?

[Wimpy]

man this game is so toxic. why can't people play nice