Mini Normal 2107 (Game Over)

[profii]

Hi

VOTE: zote

I like a good rhyming vote

[profii]

I will hammer whoever reaches L-1 without announcing it.

I do not like Day 1, because I've got literally nothing to work with.

Including yourself?

[profii]

I totally agree with Saudade which is why I asked him if he would hammer himself
If he had said yes I would have let him off but

VOTE: wake88

[profii]

Wanna guess what other person I know said the exact same line he did and turned out to be scum?

This is also why I am voting - I caught someone saying the exact same line.

[profii]

Wimpy, why?

Policy

You're not another one of these people that wont scum hunt on day 1 are you ?

[profii]

Wimpy, why?

Policy

You're not another one of these people that wont scum hunt on day 1 are you ?

No but I’m not really into rvs voting, rvs was basically over, and I honestly can’t work with anyone who thinks it’s ok to self vote so I figured that’s the best place for it.

How do you feel if I said I can't work with people who think policy votes are the best way to go on day 1?

[profii]

Wimpy, why?

Policy

You're not another one of these people that wont scum hunt on day 1 are you ?

No but I’m not really into rvs voting, rvs was basically over, and I honestly can’t work with anyone who thinks it’s ok to self vote so I figured that’s the best place for it.

I can’t really have a problem with you refusing to work with me because I’m refusing to work with vork.

If RVS is "basically over" that means we are doing serious votes

You are voting Vortuka for policy - lynch self voters - which means you dont find him scummy, you just can't work with him - this wouldnt usually be a serious vote, more of just an RVS reaction test that doesn't acheive anything in the long run

[profii]

If RVS is "basically over" that means we are doing serious votes

You are voting Vortuka for policy - lynch self voters - which means you dont find him scummy, you just can't work with him - this wouldnt usually be a serious vote, more of just an RVS reaction test that doesn't acheive anything in the long run

Why are you trying to put words into my mouth?
Why are you trying to change how I’m playing?

I do think self votes are scummy hence the policy. You don’t establish a policy lynch policy over things you don’t think are scummy.

If you don’t like my vote, vote me. If you think I should vote somebody else, convince me.

I think you are wrong - a policy is a set circumstance that you just vote for - e.g. self voting. Self voting isn't exclusively scummy but this is the reason I am pushing you

It's fine that we disagree about it, but because you legit believe you are voting for something you think is scummy, that's towny.

Someone said move down the roster, Vortuka... this is why you push... you find things out...

[profii]

I - voted the wrong person

VOTE: Vorkuta

I was going to call you out so bad if you didnt say that

[profii]

Wanna guess what other person I know said the exact same line he did and turned out to be scum?

This is also why I am voting - I caught someone saying the exact same line.

Umm how many times has someone said the exact same line but turned out to be town vs scum?

@Saudade, answer this q as well please.

question does not make sense - we are looking at a solitary person making a statement on their own and I've encountered it to be a scum thing before... there isn't anyone else for it to be Vs

[profii]

Wanna guess what other person I know said the exact same line he did and turned out to be scum?

This is also why I am voting - I caught someone saying the exact same line.

Umm how many times has someone said the exact same line but turned out to be town vs scum?

@Saudade, answer this q as well please.

This is a weird question. Zote the Mighty does not approve. Why defend Wake's behavior at the beginning?

If wake flips town the Zote could be scum here

[profii]

If wake flips town the Zote could be scum here

why? I don't see how you make that connection

me and Saudade quite assertively said Wake was scum.

Let's assume a realistic probability that me and Saudade haven't caught scum within like the first page or 2... however, given the assertive scum calling, scum!zote could feasibly be dissapointed that the momentum on the wagon has been killed off there.

[profii]

I dont like RVS either. On page 1 the statement was worth querying and he said he wouldnt self hammer. That was also page 1, so still the best thing to push at the time. If he had said he would self hammer, I would have been like "hes just making a point, he accepts that even in his death town, including him can still win, thats cool"

But by saying he wouldnt do it, it makes me think "scum can't really make that sacrafice, obviously they are the minority and suiciding yourself on day 1 would be nuts" this guy is scared to die and those reasons make sense so lets have a look at him...


Other stuff has popped up, obviously, but at the time that was the most scummy thing to push... otherwise you get 11 people placing 11 random votes and we all sit in a circle and say 'well that was nice' - someone has to start a push. I just know how to do it.



I feel like you are trying to undermine the whole thing by saying 'loses credibility' and expressing a frustration but if you dont go whole hog at your scum reads how do you get people to trip over themselves and give the game away for us to catch them?

[profii]

Zote gets it

[profii]

For those playing at home, Here are the two games where town player says the same thing as wake,

viewtopic.php?p=9922853#p9922853
viewtopic.php?p=9854602#p9854602

I really need to hear a GOOD explanation from profli as to why he is so quick to scum read wake for it when he has seen town do it twice and thus making it null as alidade and myself have pointed out.

Wow

[profii]

Why are you providing links to the games I participated in when someone town did it and not presenting a balanced view of the games where scum did it

I feel like you are getting frustrated rather than bening purposely shady but that’s a bit nawty

I think the game I’m thinking of might have even been with me and Saudade in ha ha

[profii]

If self hammering is against the rules do you have a problem with scum self hammering at L-1 to limit discussion and hinder town - that’s pro-scum and if they didn’t do it would break the play to your win con rule

That underlying point is people are saying “rules are rules” but the rules conflict each other so let’s not get bogged down in that

[profii]

Wimpy do you think there are 4 scum here ?

[profii]

I just want to make 3 points to Wimpy about this Wake read


- Saudade said “someone” singular
- I also said “someone” singular - I had a specific example in mind
- I also later hypothesised that it’s feasible I’m wrong - ie acknowledging it would be wrong to consider this a 100% reliable scum tell

So I don’t understand where Wimpy is going at all - hence I’m not bothering to really respond to his questions too directly - it’ll probably take over the thread and be detrimental

[profii]

Why are you providing links to the games I participated in when someone town did it and not presenting a balanced view of the games where scum did it

because i don't need to. You already claimed you found scum doing it and it was that reason why you think wake is scum.

The fact that you have seen town do it also and still hold the believe that wake is scum because of it shows dishonesty. This action should be null to you since you have seen both scum and town do it.

You are telling me how to play?

Ok well you just do this for me and I’ll come back later

[profii]

You are telling me how to play?

idk how you take that as me telling you how to play. That is me telling you why i scum read you.

You presented some logic and decided how I should deal with it

[profii]

Did we just bully wimpy into leaving?

No

If he can’t cope with people not saying he is right or differing in opinion then I don’t know what he is doing on this site to be honest

[profii]

After reading all the pages.. profii u havent answered my q yet

@wimpy thanks for digging up the games lmao. He had been avoiding answering the question prob cos he got caught in a scum tell.

so... Regarding saudade's experience
1) person experience
2) sample size of 1
I realise that me saying the argument between X and Y being most likely TvM probably is also sample size of 1 from my personal experience, so ill retract that argument too
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Profii
I haven't played with 'papa mason before', I was just wondering cos nobody had username papa mason.

Something tells me I have a higher winratio than you as both town and scum so please dont lecture me

I have a 100% win ratio as town. You should therefore sheep me all game.
See how that doesn't make sense?

Btw I think scum self hammering doesn't break the rules

I think I answered?

[profii]

I think I answered?

I can't find it? I just had a look through your ISO again. The closest I could see is this:

question does not make sense - we are looking at a solitary person making a statement on their own and I've encountered it to be a scum thing before... there isn't anyone else for it to be Vs

which I already addressed, and asked a follow up question.


Anyway, using a

personal

experience thing as a reason to vote someone is ... a pretty bad reasoning.

Now if you were to say that Wake88 is not contributing much at all, other than saying Wimpy is a townread, which multiple people, including me have also mentioned, then thats a different story altogether.

I don’t think I answered you directly but I’ll clarify

I have definitely seen someone make a similar statement and caught them as scum day 1

I have also been made aware that apparently I have seen people make similar statements and then they flipped town (what wimpy said)

I’ve also mentioned that it was like a page 1/2 scum read and I’ve hypothesised that there are scenarios where I’m wrong

As it happens, I agree with the point that wake hasn’t really got started in this game - it could be scum believing they are under major scrutiny so not sure how to enter the game but it’s just a thought rather than me saying “we must lynch right now”

I think I’ve got too swept up in this whole thing and I’m probably missing out paying attention to half the player list tbh

[profii]

Wimpy has requested replacement

Town rep out

Could you explain why you find his replace-out townie, cur?

If he was scum he'd be doing a good job because he inspired a 7 page festival of nonsense, you are not likely to rep out if you are doing a good job

I would have to agree with this.

UNVOTE:

Yep

I was thinking as scum you don’t get that passionate about some of those points was my reason for TR’ing him but that is quite concise and unrefutable so if we can all agree wimpy town that would help

[profii]

Actually,

Intent to L-1 Wake

for some reason it’s always the too scum to be scum that flips red.

Why would you say you are going to do that

And not do it

To be clear, noting I am on the wagon - I am not encouraging you to join, just curious as to why you’ve hesitated there

[profii]

I will hammer

whoever

reaches L-1 without announcing it.

[profii]

I wanna hear a bit more from UltimatePlank

He says he best town read is alimdia
And from the Wimpy-saga he says scum probably piled on meaning one of {elements/vork/Saudade}


My questions are - why is alimdia so town and where does elements come into it as I don’t understand

Also, whilst I agree wimpy is likely town I am not sure that sheeping his slot is the wisest plan - being town inherently means uninformed ergo doesn’t actually know who the scum is.

[profii]

I’m just quoting what he said

[profii]

I’m just quoting what he said

Did you see his post below the initial one though?

Of course I did

How do you feel about people that make sweeping statements then change their mind when it comes down to it

[profii]

Plus, the wagon itself was contrived. Nothing I had said warranted that trash-wagon, and I don't see any objective Townie actually running with it.

So if there is 1 scum and 0 objective townies

What does that make the other 4 players on your wagon?

I feel like you’ve just insulted 4 people by saying that

[profii]

I have the reputation I have down in my sig.

Ha ha I’m light of that I’m considering Un-voting you

[profii]

I wanna hear a bit more from UltimatePlank

He says he best town read is alimdia
And from the Wimpy-saga he says scum probably piled on meaning one of {elements/vork/Saudade}


My questions are - why is alimdia so town and where does elements come into it as I don’t understand

Also, whilst I agree wimpy is likely town I am not sure that sheeping his slot is the wisest plan - being town inherently means uninformed ergo doesn’t actually know who the scum is.

Do you not town read me good sir?

i didn’t say either way
I’m interested in where UltimatePlank gets his read from - because he says he does have a town read but I can’t work out why (from what he says)

[profii]

Whats the timer until day end

Just over a week ?

UNVOTE:

I think this will do for now

[profii]

Why would i bother regurgitating reasons?

Because it’s easy for scum to sheep wrong town and be like yep I just agreed with that dude he sounded clever

I don’t like that post, at all.

VOTE: ultimateplank

[profii]

Why would i bother regurgitating reasons?

Because it’s easy for scum to sheep wrong town and be like yep I just agreed with that dude he sounded clever

I don’t like that post, at all.

VOTE: ultimateplank

so now I'm town

if we are getting into pre flip stuff that’s the logic

[profii]

Lack of protest of the wake wagon falling down is noted. Any thoughts from anyone?

[profii]

My reason for pressuring Looker is that he has basically no content. I'd forgotten all about that slot until I saw others vote him, and then I realised that was actually a good place for a wagon right now.

No this is the point

You are just voting because you saw other people do it - you aren’t coming in with a new perspective like “see how he said X which is scummy so vote”

You’re just sheeping a lurking vote which is why I vote you

To be fair I assume that’s all the looker votes are about but I’m going to take another look

[profii]

I’ve no inclination to vote looker at this point. I can see him trying to sort Saudade and he has posted a lot so maybe that agenda has taken over his attention for now

Obviously that stance is right now and we can’t cling onto that forever so I look forward to more

[profii]

Lack of protest of the wake wagon falling down is noted. Any thoughts from anyone?

Are you talking about the 3 people still on wake or other people?

Anyone is free to comment on anything

[profii]

Right now I think Saudade is town. I don't much care for his minimalistic posting style, but he seems to want to progress the game along and get us away from the pointless discussion that has clogged the past few pages.

I don't see this. Can you point me to a post where he was progressing the game as opposed to spamming the thread? I'm trying to determine whether my distrust of him is based on alignment or personality.

I’m not voting looker mostly based on this post

He seems to be genuinely trying to work Saudade out

If you are trying to work something out, you don’t know, ergo you are town

It’s obviously an early read on a quiet slot so it can change but for now...

[profii]

Right now I think Saudade is town. I don't much care for his minimalistic posting style, but he seems to want to progress the game along and get us away from the pointless discussion that has clogged the past few pages.

I don't see this. Can you point me to a post where he was progressing the game as opposed to spamming the thread? I'm trying to determine whether my distrust of him is based on alignment or personality.

I’m not voting looker mostly based on this post

He seems to be genuinely trying to work Saudade out

If you are trying to work something out, you don’t know, ergo you are town

It’s obviously an early read on a quiet slot so it can change but for now...

Where is the part where he's genuinely trying to figure out Saudade's alignment exactly?

I see Zote having a townread and Looker saying that he isn't sure about that. But where does Looker actually go out of his way to show that he is trying to sort Saudade?

I sense we are miscommunicating here somehow.

To me this reads as Zote thinks Saudade is town. the first sentence in #286 is really clear

Then the last sentence in 295 "I'm trying to determine whether my distrust of him is based on alignment or personality." says to me that Looker isn't so sure and is trying to work it out - which is why I made the point about his trying to sort someone, indicates he is town.

I guess the reason I sympathise with Looker is because the first time I played with Saudade he was town but I got really paranoid over his style of play, or his personality you could say...

I haven't actually sorted Saudade in my mind yet for that very reason so that's where I'm up to.

[profii]

I'm saying it looks genuine... Scum dont have to because they already know.

It's a read caveated by the fact he hasn't posted much and it's page 18 but I feel ok for now

[profii]

Lack of protest of the wake wagon falling down is noted. Any thoughts from anyone?

I feel it was opportunistic scum, honestly. When people don't have to give reasoning, anybody can jump on a wagon.

See this is why I can't make a decision on Saudade. I felt Wake was the best place to start the wagon, but I made post 405 specifically to bait someone into going 'come on guys, we should push this lynch through' and instead, the wagon just died even more

So I agree that it's possible opportunistic scum

could

be involved and I'll be looking at what paths Vortuka and Saudade take from here on in.

[profii]

suddenly straight up slips that wake is town

can you clarify that please ?

[profii]

suddenly straight up slips that wake is town

can you clarify that please ?

He said opportunistic scum jumped on wake's wagon, which implies he knows that wake is town.
The other possible implication is that he town read wake hard, which I showed that there was no evidence in my 438 that that is the case.

I thought so, I just wanted you to say it rather than me assume it.
I see what you mean, I'd like to know where Lookers hard town read comes from.

[profii]

I need people to support this wagon. The evidence is damning...

@Plank, come back on this
@Saudade, @profii, @wake88 What do you think of the stuff I just laid out? Join the wagon if in agreement please
@Eibirn, @Elements hopefully you guys read my stuff in detail

Also... if someone, for example me, lays out a good case about why someone is scum, provides evidence, example and so on...
Why does anyone that reads it have to provide additional original reasoning in order to join the wagon? The whole point is I'm trying to
1) find scum
2) convince other people to agree with me and vote with me.

If my case convinces people, I don't see why they have to find some other extra reasoning to vote with me.
It's only when its like ... the wake wagon where there's not really a case that its suspicious.

Firstly I think you a town. You seem pretty convinced that Looker is doing something worth digging into which is cool. I wouldnt expect scum to drive a day 1 wagon from scratch like this...

However, I am curious about Looker, but I dont feel a need to vote right now... I have specific questions, if he answers them satisfactorily, then cool, I probably wont vote. If not, I'll either ask more questions or just vote. I dont feel the need to just jump in though - what if we evaluate someone and we decide they are town, but they dont want to work together because they feel like you gave them a hard time? then how do we catch scum - we need to play the long game here... it's a team sport.


To your point about extra reasoning - I would say on day 1, it's not like we have a PR saying I saw slot X do action Y to slot Z which is clear scum - if that was the case I'd say fine, quick-lynch. This is day 1 - we know nothing - all the players are humans and have their own perspective, I'd expect it to be simple enough for 10 different people to evaluate a situation and say 'I agree with part A but not so much part B' and have 10 different opinions - if people all come in and just go 'yep vote' at this early stage, something is wrong - so there isn't a rush right now.

[profii]

He reminds me of Wake in terms of trying to read - similarly logical I think

Where’s vortuka at

[profii]

Wimpy has requested replacement

Town rep out

Could you explain why you find his replace-out townie, cur?

If he was scum he'd be doing a good job because he inspired a 7 page festival of nonsense, you are not likely to rep out if you are doing a good job

I ask about Vortuka because this is on my mind a little bit

[profii]

Let me remind you all that just because your points may be correct and make sense, that does not mean that the case you've built will yield scum at the end of it

...... so how do we yield scum then?

Welcome to Mafia, where the rules are made up and the points don't matter!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Looker

Why looker ?

[profii]

VC 1.5

Wake88 (5):

Saudade, profii, Vorkuta, Zote the Mighty, Saladman27

(L-1)

Saladman27 (3):

Elbirn, UltimatePlank, alimdia

Elbirn (1):

Elements

Not voting (2):

Wake88, Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

VC 1.8

Looker (4):

Wake88, alimdia, UltimatePlank, Elbirn

(L-2)

UltimatePlank (3):

profii, Saladman27, Elements

Wake88 (2):

Saudade, Vorkuta

Saladman27 (1):

Zote the Mighty

Not voting (1):

Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

---

Mod Notes:

Saladman27 is V/LA until 11/14

It's pretty strange that those 2 wagons comprise of no overlap.

[profii]

Looker

, I would ask you to please claim.

No quick-lynching, the rest of you. I want this information.

so you can declare yourself as a quick-hammer'er but when you are on the wagon we have to wait until you are satisfied?

I am not going to quick hammer but this double standard is outrageous

[profii]

I'm a big fan of pressuring this slot actually

VOTE: Looker

Why do you keep on sheeping others without any good reason? Why not even regurgitate the other wagoneers’ reasoning?

Looker - if I said Salad looks like he is trying to discourage people from voting you by belittling their reasoning here what would you say ?

[profii]

VC 1.5

Wake88 (5):

Saudade, profii, Vorkuta, Zote the Mighty, Saladman27

(L-1)

Saladman27 (3):

Elbirn, UltimatePlank, alimdia

Elbirn (1):

Elements

Not voting (2):

Wake88, Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

VC 1.8

Looker (4):

Wake88, alimdia, UltimatePlank, Elbirn

(L-2)

UltimatePlank (3):

profii, Saladman27, Elements

Wake88 (2):

Saudade, Vorkuta

Saladman27 (1):

Zote the Mighty

Not voting (1):

Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

---

Mod Notes:

Saladman27 is V/LA until 11/14

It's pretty strange that those 2 wagons comprise of no overlap.

What's the reasoning do you think?

Interesting how those three on mine jumped onto Salad instead.

You mean 2? And did you mean plank?

I'm really curious about Salad who was a bit weird about voting Wake, waiting until he was actually online - then not only doesn't vote the looker wagon, but criticised someone for going on that wagon where I highlighted that sheeping point.

I'd like to hear more about that

[profii]

I'll not be hammering. I want Looker and Salad to come back at least before I go anywhere near it

[profii]

to be fair I'm getting ever closer to voting looker

[profii]

I'm not silly

[profii]

Very diplomatic

[profii]

I am starting to see the case against Looker, but I'm not 100% confident that they'll flip scum. I still find it unsettling how confident alimdia is in his read and if Looker is lynched and does flip green, that's one suspect for tomorrow.

Also don't care for Elements's or Plank's votes on Looker either.

Do you really think that if looker flips green that makes alimdia scummy ?

I mean the guys signature says 100% town win rate and it looks like he completed 1 game - he is just super cock sure

[profii]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking profii? About Zote.

Ive on idea ?

[profii]

wow typing with capital letters so much effort imo

VOTE: Elements

new and exciting direction for this game wow so exciting

what made you lose interest in the looker lynch?

[profii]

I’ve still no idea what he is on about

[profii]

I think someone on that wagon should unvote

Why?

Elbirn can you stick your vote back? I want a claim on Friday or earlier, not more stalling

I’m alright with it now actually

VOTE: looker

[profii]

Wimpy has requested replacement

Town rep out

Could you explain why you find his replace-out townie, cur?

If he was scum he'd be doing a good job because he inspired a 7 page festival of nonsense, you are not likely to rep out if you are doing a good job

I ask about Vortuka because this is on my mind a little bit

I’ll just repeat this about Vortuka as it is still quite apt

[profii]

profii continues to ping me as scum, for statements like the above

obviously if someone pushes a wagon hard and that wagon turns green, you look at that person? you don't immediately consider they're scum, but you look at that possibility for sure

but he questions why we would do that, saying, "obviously alimdia is just cock sure"

like, what?

and earlier profii even questioned my townread on alimdia. so he doesn't even townread alimdia, but sits there sniping people who are throwing hypothetical suspicion on a hypothetical flip? this has been an angle he takes a lot in this game and it's super fucking weird.

i think the best lynches today are profii, Elements or Looker

Quite happy to go through this with you, at least as much as I can

Not sure which wagon or who you are referring to in the first point but I assume we are talking about almidia pushing so hard on looker - I have LITERALLY said I think alimdia is town because he is pushing a wagon from scratch - I agree that if looker flipped green it doesn’t immediately make almidia scum - I agree we would also have to think about it - at this point (pre flip) do I think I would consider it for a long time? Unlikely based on how today has played out so far

Part of the reason is my cock sure comment and it also relates in a way to my looker read

Consider that I’ve never played with Almidia before but I have immediately seen 2 facts about him upon reading his first post
- a very recent join date
- a sig of “100% town win rate”

The 2nd comes off as a boast but when you look at his history he has 1 complete town game - however couple that with this game where he is pushing his read super hard on day one- to me it’s just cock sure because you can’t really be that certain this early on in a game


But then, make the same assessment of Looker and what do we learn
- a 10 year old join date
- his first post said no one knows me or something like that

Then as the game progresses looker has this unusual observational style of contributing to the game so initially in my mind I gave him the benefit of the doubt as perhaps he just comes from a different era of the site where that’s how those dudes play but as the game carries on and he continues to be “diplomatic” as I called it, I think I should vote him, so I did


Just to reiterate again as it is your last paragraph - I have LITERALLY said I town read almidia right now (449 I think) so you need to read more carefully rather than getting upset (presuming this is because I voted you earlier)

[profii]

The person who claimed hes hammering whoever gets to l1 first, then doesnt hammer him.
Its because its his scum buddy

bro he was on the wagon he can't hammer

Pretty sure he had le hammer at a point

Nope

[profii]

Looker - I mean you seem to avoid direct questions or give elusive answers

[profii]

Did someone say intent?

VOTE: looker

[profii]

I said I think almidia is town because he is driving the looker wagon from scratch but at what point should I consider that he could be using it to not really get involved in all the other slots in the game whilst still appearing active and participating

[profii]

So it’s friday and there have been at least 2 double votes

This basically tells us looker should claim I think

[profii]

Elbirn why did you unvote Looker so easily at Saudades request

Also well done almidia - you were sharp on that scum read of looker

[profii]

Has anyone ever played a 11p game before

I’ve played 9 (2 scum)
And 13 (3 scum)

I don’t recall playing 11p recently so not sure if this is 2/3 scum

[profii]

In 2v7, day 3 can be 2v3 LyLo and that’s “normal” though
I am continually proven to be bad at setup spec

[profii]

Elbirn why did you unvote Looker so easily at Saudades request

Also well done almidia - you were sharp on that scum read of looker

Because I am a team player

I'm inclined to think almidia is beyond suspicion with how yesterday went

I pretty certain about Almidia as well

But I don’t buy the team player reason - you remove your vote at request of Saudade who, at the time wasn’t exactly summoning the masses to vote with him as the Wake wagon had been and gone.
2 posts later you were asking him to explain his logic so I can’t rationalise your position where you are following a player you don’t understand and calling it team play

Also - there are a couple of examples of you specifically not rejoining the wagon - as reluctant as Looker was to claim, there was a lot of pressure on him to do it. A lot of pressure = what the team want, but you think team play is not helping that effort

VOTE: Elbirn

[profii]

Anyone that speedhammers today must hang tomorrow.

Also no lynching is dumb. I'm pretty sure scum shot at me last night as confirmed town.

<3 protective role

Well I wasn’t going to say it but yes I would imagine you are right. I was trying to predict the night kill last night and I thought it would be you but I’m glad to see you alive and well

[profii]

Let me give you an actual answer:

Saudade asked me to unvote so looker wasnt at L-1. I considered this to be reasonable. That's all there is to that.

As for not rejoining the wagon you should find that I am always wary of the day 1 "low charisma" mislynch. This game is a popularity contest, especially day 1. If you read my back and forth with Looker I tried to give him every opportunity to talk his way out of his lynch because I thought yall were whipped up into that mob mentality fervor over someone who wasn't doing a good job of being liked.

I wanted an opportunity to read someone under pressure. You all wanted a flip. *Big shrugs*

See I specifically joined the wagon I felt looker was getting off the hook and his increased lack of straight answers made him more and more likely to be scum in my eyes so your narrative is really at odds with mine

That might be all it is but I’m still making sense of your approach I guess. I don’t like it right now

[profii]

I Townread Alimdia, and am still reading Elbirn/Wimpy's slot as Town.

Profii wouldn't vote for Looker. Zote I'm not sure about. Salad could be Scum for hammering at the last minute to lower suspicion.

I can't tell if Saudade is Scum or not. He wouldn't go after Looker and was bent on lynching me instead. Looking at Vorkuta too.

Hmmm good point I forgot Elbirn was Wimpy.

[profii]

For the people that want to lynch Saudade : Have you played with Saudade before ?

[profii]

Vortuka barely mentions Looker in his ISO.
He said can somoene TL;DR the case just before Looker hit L-1 the first time
Then after that wagon dipped he said he still didnt get it.
It then picked up again, Vortuka said intent to hammer and then someone else did it approx 20 hours later with no further posts from Vortuka.

I'm not sure if this is someone so focussed on Wake and didnt care about Looker or trying not to get involved in the looker wagon for scum reasons at the moment...

[profii]

The idea that i would try and protect my partner like this is laughable

The reason I asked was because I've seen you play like this before - if I hadn't I'd probably say 'no one is going to get over the idea you were trying to balls out protect Looker so better remove this untrustable slot now or never'

[profii]

the way I'm looking at Zote is like this:

If I follow his ISO and ctrl + F looker - his narrative kinda matches mine for so long - I didnt really "get" the looker case, I could kinda see it but Alimdia's confidence was kind of a red flag to me - however, as we get to the later parts of our ISOs, we go on different paths - Looker continually posted in an elusive fashion, not willing to really answer questions or engage in the tradition of claiming etc which bugged me. When the wagon started to dip off I felt that we hadn't exerted enough pressure on Looker so that was when and why I was happy to bring the wagon back into focus.

At a similar time, Zote just stops commenting in any major way on Looker


I'd probably say looking at it with a relative view and comparing to Vortuka, I'd probably say Vortuka was simply focussed on his own read of Wake and Zote was trying to discredit a Looker wagon but in a subtle way

VOTE: Zote

[profii]

The idea that i would try and protect my partner like this is laughable

The reason I asked was because I've seen you play like this before - if I hadn't I'd probably say 'no one is going to get over the idea you were trying to balls out protect Looker so better remove this untrustable slot now or never'

You saw me protect my partner like this before?

no the opposite you dope.

I've seen you play as town and just be like "lynch X guys" "come just lynch him" "guys guys come on just lynch"

just like insistent without really putting any meat on the bone... can't remember if you were right or wrong, I dont think it matters.

[profii]

if you look at how UP came to vote on Looker i think he looks town. He was quite involved in making sure we expressed intent and trying to get a claim out of Looker. If they were scum together, you'd have thought Looker would have known that was coming and had a claim to give us

[profii]

There are quite a few posts where Zote is anti Looker wagon, as can be reviewed here:

Spoiler: Zote

Can someone TL;DR key points the wagon on looker?
I've caught up but I still don't get it

You have a reason for not wanting Looker to be pressured?

You have a reason to pressure him, cur? I don't really see the case against Looker either.

The only thing in Looker's ISO I dislike right now is his vote on Elements.

I just got back from slaying many great beasts in the caverns of Hallownest. They could not stand the wrath of Zote the Mighty and his appropriately named weapon, 'Life Ender.' I've heard tales of an arena where great warriors gather to fight. Perhaps I may discover this arena some day.

In the meantime, I will review the Looker case.

That's basically what I'm feeling at the moment, for what it's worth.

I really, REALLY hate Day 1 because I've got nothing tangible to work with.

I've got both profii and Zote getting fussy over putting pressure on Looker, and I'm not so sure how to read that so early in the game.

Go ahead and read Zote's ISO. Theres a shitload of posts, but he's probably said the same amount of non-fluff as you.

That's not even my post cur! This feels like an intentional misquote

VOTE: Saladman I'm interested in pushing this. Ultimate Plank is another wagon I could get on board with as well.

literally only things Zote has talked about Salad so far:

I've seen town!salad be really inconsistent that way as well.

Oh please don't tell me saladman is mislynch bait I hate when I'm not allowed to push on people doing bad things because they always do bad things HaHa lol so randumb

From the rumblings I've heard deep in the depths of Hallownest, where I just slayed a great 30 foot long beast, Salad is known for being what one would call 'lynchbaity.'

In short, I can't stand Day 1. Least favorite part of the game. We have literally nothing to work with.

I don't mind hammering at L-1, but I will relax on it being a quickhammer, because we'd need a claim.

If something interesting happens during Day 1 then I'll pick at it, but I'm not interested in being paranoid-psycho on everything Day 1 like others can and do. It's a waste of my time. As bodies hit the floor I can actually start parsing out who is who.

Boycotting Day 1 entirely isn't the way to go about it though cur. There's plenty of information to be gained from wagons such as who supported it, who was against it, who hopped on etc. In particular I did not care for Saladman's hop on, especially with his intent to put you at L-1. It felt overly cautious .

Basically only case is 'overly cautious L1'ing wake'

Same with him wanting to wagon UltimatePlank, the only times he mentions ultimate are 'why do you townread alimdia' and 'why you pressure Looker'

LOL!

Do you not agree that Salad was being a bit too cautious when announcing intent to put Wake at L-1?

As for Plank, some of his reactions have been pinging me. In particular I did not like his hop on the Looker wagon. 408 is a sketchy post as well and it feels like a jump reaction to someone questioning the Looker wagon. Sort of like a 'why would you not vote for this person?' kind of reaction.

Do you expect me to have full cases on people when we're still early in Day 1 and little has been established? I find it troubling that you are so confident in your reads.

So basically the case against Looker is his lack of contribution or substance in his posts. Is that not very similar to the case that was against Wake in the beginning? I find it odd that the players in support of the Looker wagon were the same people who were against the Wake wagon are in support of the Looker wagon despite the similar reasoning.

I am starting to see the case against Looker, but I'm not 100% confident that they'll flip scum. I still find it unsettling how confident alimdia is in his read and if Looker is lynched and does flip green, that's one suspect for tomorrow.

Also don't care for Elements's or Plank's votes on Looker either.

I am starting to see the case against Looker, but I'm not 100% confident that they'll flip scum. I still find it unsettling how confident alimdia is in his read and if Looker is lynched and does flip green, that's one suspect for tomorrow.

Also don't care for Elements's or Plank's votes on Looker either.

Do you really think that if looker flips green that makes alimdia scummy ?

I mean the guys signature says 100% town win rate and it looks like he completed 1 game - he is just super cock sure

Potentially, mostly because I don't find the case against Looker very compelling.

I'd look into Plank and Elements too upon a town!Looker flip.

Sorry I've been gone a while. I found a great beast in the depths of Hallownest and slayed it with my weapon, 'Life Ender!' I will catch up soon.

thoughts on wagons?

I am opposed to the Looker wagon. I think he is going to flip town.

VOTE: Ultimate Plank I still don't like this slot.

man idk anymore but wake wagon is not better than looker wagon

gonna need more than "wakemanbad"

what OTHER wagon do you want saudade

honestly id vote saudade over wake at this juncture

Fool! Have you even given justification for why you're on the Looker wagon? Based on your ISO it feels to me like you find Elements much more suspicious. Would your vote not be better placed there?

[profii]

I have no opinion about saladman, who is that

his country is on fire rn

[profii]

Yeah I know which is why Eibirn pings me

Vorkuta disappearing also pings me

The tricky thing is we know there is only 1 other scum now

[profii]

Due to an unintentional reveal, this is setup information is being given to all players. This was the only information revealed.

25. Mafia have daytalk and

2 members

.

...

[profii]

Otherwise its a bit imbalanced...

I would assume the other is probably multi tasking as well.

[profii]

It's either Saudade, Profii, Salad, or Zote.

...

...

Let's kill them all.

I'm happy to stay in your list if you can think of a sensible reason to explain why i voted for looker when the first wagon started dying (i.e. at the point when looker could have been home and dry and the town probably would have gone elsewhere)
I also double voted for reactions a couple of times whilst Looker was refusing to claim and made no hesitations or suggestions that i was going to remove myself from the wagon.

If you can't rationalise all that, then I think you'll struggle to lynch me and should move on.

[profii]

I think Saudade means arsonist and it says on the wiki that would be a 3p role. I dont think that's normal in an 11p game.

[profii]

Hadn't thought about a traitor - I suppose that potentially offers another reason for the no kill

[profii]

I think the only person I'd consider voting for on wagon is Salad, he possibly reluctantly voted looker and also I am pinged slightly with him sheeping elements case and saying the day will be quick - it comes over as if he is knowingly going to be inactive and assumes that case will be enough to end the day before he comes back

But that just seems to naive to be scum

[profii]

I didn't realise Vortuka was posting elsewhere in the 'intent to hammer... 20 hours... someone else hammers' phase. That curious.
I'm still happy with my Zote vote but I'd also go Vortuka if a wagon started there.
I am not sure if we had a doctor or a traitor NK event so in my mind I'm hoping for doctor, 1 scum remaining, but planning for the worst - 2 + traitor which actually seems feasible in an 11p setup to me. It still doesn't change my Alimdia town read either way.


The traitor angle makes things really interesting, because let's assume scum knew of the traitor, either by mod info at game start or because their roles indicated 2v9 is a step too far and they guessed. So that means they (potentially) shot someone who was obv-scum to try and get them into their ranks. You could easily make a case for that being Saudade and you could make the case that Saudade was this obv-scum to try and attract his team and bring him into the fold.

I think you could probably make a similar argument for Vortuka - given the lack of hammer and fuelling the massive distraction with Wimpy at game start


But it could well just simply be a doc save and I'm over thinking too - that would make vortuka a 'safer' bet from my PoV but I dunno, there is a lot to discuss.

[profii]

good point - scum didnt know the existence of the traitor, so they might have setup spec'd it but idk - I haven't played enough 11p games to recall if 2v9 is normal but judging by the reaction in this game, most people were leaning 3v8 so maybe the scum setup spec'd it but it becomes less likely.

So let's operate on the more likely assumption that the scum tried to kill the most towny dude (you) and you got protection. To me, that says Saudade wouldn't be open-wolf'ing to lure a night kill onto himself, which makes him more towny.

I'll join you on Vortuka, especially in light of your comment about him being active during the intent phase of day 1.

VOTE: Vortuka

[profii]

Vortuka fueled a bug mess with wimpy, that was actively dummy
Vortuka didn't talk about looker at all, that's actively dummy
Vortuka declared intent but didn't come back to the game for the rest of the game day despite posting elsewhere, so someone else hammered, also dummy


But the thinking is -in a 2p scum team- Saudade openly tunnels off the scum wagon to blatantly defend his scum pal... I don't think so

I mean until we see another Mason claim he simply isn't a Mason either but I doubt he is scum

[profii]

Also note Vortuka hasn't made a big impact on day 2 - I mean if he is lone scum and 2 people are gunning for you out the gate, that's tough so I get it but it also adds up

[profii]

shit like "i've seen saudade tunnel as town" isn't what actually has a bearing on how you read his alignment.

But this seems to be what people are scum reading him for, so by your logic, those scum reads are void.

No one is clearly communicating reasons for scum!Saudade over and above this (and I accept if they've attempted perhaps I'm not taking it on board very well)


I agree it's NAI - I know I've said I've seen him do it as town, but for perfect clarity, I agree with you, it's NAI, I'm not trying to say it's town indicative.

[profii]

Vortuka hasn't made a big impact on day 2 -

Yeah that's how you know I'm town and have the responsibility of being correct with my reads and pushes

yeah that's a big nope from me.

You could probably argue Alimdia is in that position because his push on Looker makes him look incredibly town.
Whilst you will obviously argue his push on you is wrong and that he has the responsibility of being correct with his reads, I'd counter with the point that just because he voted you, hasn't caused the town to rapid lynch you - I was there before him and no one else has followed yet


So firstly, the point you've made is just a way of excusing yourself from producing content
and secondly, you haven't been towny enough to warrant making that point about yourself imo

[profii]

Interesting that traitor is included in normal.

Also, Looker's role PM was shown, and it said nothing about traitor?

VOTE: Vorkuta

Once again, giving Saudade to claim or withdraw his claim of mason.

Fool! There cannot be a traitor. The game would be over if there was.

What do you mean by this?

[profii]

Interesting that traitor is included in normal.

Also, Looker's role PM was shown, and it said nothing about traitor?

VOTE: Vorkuta

Once again, giving Saudade to claim or withdraw his claim of mason.

Fool! There cannot be a traitor. The game would be over if there was.

What do you mean by this?

hes dumdum, probably thought 2nd maf was traitor instead of 3rd

I wish people wouldn't jump in... still wonder what u meant Zote

[profii]

*Pulls out hammer*

*WHAM!!!*

"Woah, he's taking it like a champ!"

*Whack*

*Thud*

*Crshh*

VOTE: Vorkuta

On day 1 this is accepted but please don't get into a habit of doing this

That being said Vortukas absence seems rather telling so hopefully it should be fine

[profii]

*Pulls out hammer*

*WHAM!!!*

"Woah, he's taking it like a champ!"

*Whack*

*Thud*

*Crshh*

VOTE: Vorkuta

On day 1 this is accepted but please don't get into a habit of doing this

That being said Vortukas absence seems rather telling so hopefully it should be fine

You're next.

What do you mean next? Are you saying you don't think we are going to win here? Why did you hammer ?

[profii]

It's either Saudade, Profii, Salad, or Zote.

...

...

Let's kill them all.

Vortuka wasn't even in your list and you have just rushed a hammer for no reason at all

[profii]

Fair enough - didn't recall you being a particular advocate for a vortuka lynch and that post doesn't show context in ISO

[profii]

VOTE: wake

Should be obvious why

[profii]

Well there was no kill so I'm guessing this is just a continuation of the tunnel

[profii]

Vote wake, he hammered and we lost any chance of getting that watcher info

[profii]

Before anyone does anything stupid give me time to claim.

Hahaha like you did with vortuka?

[profii]

Due to an unintentional reveal, this is setup information is being given to all players. This was the only information revealed.

25. Mafia have daytalk and

2 members

.

Fairly certain on 2 mafia


I think in a 2v9 game I wouldnt be surprised by 2x scum multitasking PRs to help them, so I am rather confident of a very clever doctor at play.

[profii]

Intent

[profii]

Should I decide on order or popcorn?

Clarify?

Popcorn is like you claim so you want me to claim next

Then I claim I say I want X to claim next

Then X claims and says they want Y to claim next

Or because Ali is town, he could decide the whole list

[profii]

Just before we get into any more claims we need to consider that Saudade had a n2 action and inferred that he looked at Wake

But he was trolling A LOT which damages his credibility

However, Wake hammered pre Vortuka claim which damages his credibility

It also bothers me that Wake jumps straight in with a claim that contests Saudades soft claim.


I think before we go into mass claim we should say do we believe Wake

I personally don't and just to be clear my role doesn't give me any info that can verify this JK claim or not

[profii]

That's what I'm saying- if wake is lying he _could_ have been doing something n2 that saudade _actually_ did see

He could have been concerned that because saudade claimed n2 tracker and we now see that is guaranteed fact he felt like he needed to jump in with a claim today that discredits Saudadea _actual role_

[profii]

I claim even night tracker, guess what I got boys

VOTE: wake

[profii]

You started heading down that path when you hammered vortuka

[profii]

You potentially protected me

[profii]

why does Wake get to decide we are doing a mass claim? I have no issue claiming but the problem we need to discuss before we jump in and do it is the fact there have been no night kills, that means there is very likely to be a doctor who very likely doesn't want to reveal themselves to scum because then guess what... night kills start happening.

people should stop claiming and weigh up the pros and cons of any further claims

[profii]

we are, in theory, 1 vs 7 - we probably have a protective. Why on earth are we claiming? Has anyone even looked at wagon analysis yet?

This is some awful town play

[profii]

to be fair, that's 2 people and you havent given any thought to the protective so before you go making executive decision for the entire group can we consider EVERYONES thoughts.

We have had a quick hammer which was stupid
we have had a troll player who lost us a tracker action which was stupid
let's not feed our potential doctor to the wolves FOR NO REASON AT ALL


Also, your plan for the doctor is absolutely not feasible at all... now scum are just going to claim VT, then go 'actually im the doc' then you will be like ah cool that was the plan - someone else will be like 'dont believe you' - the real doctor might also be like 'no im the doc' and out themselves

ive been through that before and it fails miserably - if the majority thinks thats a senssible idea I'll roll with it but I am strongly against it


i am really frustrated that people are just choosing a direction on behalf of everyone and shanghai'ing this town into avoidable problems... I am very close to replacing out because i can't abide the idiocy

[profii]

and just to make a point about it, I've never replaced out of a game but this is pushing me to the limit

[profii]

and no this is not an elaborate AtE to avoid claiming because I'm scum - it is geuine disbelief at the terrible decision making - if the MAJORITY of the group favour a mass claim i will happily fall in line but I will absolutely advocate the points I have made to ensure people are making INFORMED decisions before they decide what they want

[profii]

We at least look at who is voting for who and why... I am on my lunch break at work right now but Ill be doing that over the weekend

[profii]

There is a side of me that thinks you must be town if you didnt know what loyal was.

Obviously you targetted me to try and stop a NK, which, ok there was no NK, but if your claim is legit either you protected my by accident or it just had nothing to do with whatever is going on.


There is also a side of me that thinks 'your role PM said loyal and you didnt know what it was, so you didnt think to click on the wiki link that appears on EVERY SINGLE POST WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN'

[profii]

So Day 1 we got some wagons, but on day 2/3 we've just rush lynched.

VC 1.5

Wake88 (5):

Saudade

, profii,

Vorkuta

, Zote the Mighty, Saladman27

(L-1)

Saladman27 (3):

Elbirn, UltimatePlank, alimdia

Elbirn (1):

Elements

Not voting (2):

Wake88,

Looker

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

VC 1.9

Looker

(5):

Wake88, alimdia, UltimatePlank, Elbirn, Elements

(L-1)

UltimatePlank (3):

profii, Saladman27,

Looker

Wake88 (2):

Saudade

,

Vorkuta

Saladman27 (1):

Zote the Mighty

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

---

Mod Notes:

Saladman27 is V/LA until 11/14

VC 1.FINAL

Looker

(6): Wake88, alimdia, Elements, profii, UltimatePlank, Saladman27 (Lynch)

UltimatePlank (2):

Looker

, Zote the Mighty

Wake88 (2):

Saudade

,

Vorkuta

Not Voting (1):

Elbirn

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

VC 2.FINAL

Vorkuta

(6): profii, UltimatePlank, Elbirn,

Saudade

, Elements, Wake88 (Lynch)

Saudade

(2):

Saladman27, Zote the Mighty

Not Voting (2):

Vorkuta

. alimdia

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-28 15:00:00)

VC 3.FINAL

Saudade

(5): Elbirn, UltimatePlank, Saladman27, Wake88, Elements (LYNCH)

Wake88 (2):

profii,

Saudade

Not voting (2):

Zote the Mighty, alimdia

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-12-05 15:00:00)

[profii]

I have an idea of what I want to look at from that data, but I'll let other people mull it over whilst I sleep and do some analysis tomorrow

[profii]

Actually it's obviously Elbirn, let's not wait.

VOTE: Elbirn

He was on the looker wagon but dropped off because Saudade asked him to- Saudade probably asked because he was tunnelling wake and Elbirn couldnt give a convincing excuse.

Then there was no kill, Ali was clearly pushing looker hard and that makes him obviously town - scum can't have an obvious town so he was an obvious choice to remove, so it makes sense that he got protected. Then if you look through the ISO of Elbirn and me together, you can see I suggested I might have protected Elbirn and Elbirn was like woah dont out that you are the doctor.

Then another no kill - Elbirn probably tried to kill me and the real doctor probably just protected me

Then another no kill - I got protected by Wake basically, and I guess Elbirn really thinks Im the doctor and tried to kill me again.

I'm not saying I am the doctor, or not, I mean, I've claimed cop on day 1 before and survived a hella long time in a multiball setup so it's possible - think what you like.

You also have to consider that Elbirn said "Profii is town" pretty much as bluntly as that - I accused Elbirn of being scum straight after the N1 flip and Elbirn did the whole LAMIST thing of 'woah keep quiet doc'

So given that he knows i suspect him I guess he is trying to pocket me by just declaring me town so I leave him alone.



Finally go look at Elbirns reasons for being on the Saudade/Vortuka wagons - need I say more?
Also consider that he has obviously identified Wake as a town player that perhaps goes against the grain, at least certainly irritates me, so that is a town weakness he can exploit and he is straight on the wagon today.



VOTE: Elbirn

[profii]

thats the only thing it's weird given what we have that a doc would be able to protect you, which was highly likely imo and then someone else yesterday

maybe the scum isnt multi tasking and tried something else n2 or 3 idk

still think elbirn is a big candidate though

[profii]

Wake if your gut thinks I'm scum why did I vote looker after the first looker started to die? Why didn't I ignore it and let the wagon go elsewhere

[profii]

that should have said "first looker wagon started to die" but hey ho

[profii]

01. Zote the Mighty
02. Elements
03. UltimatePlank

Vanilla Townie

*
04. Elbirn
05. Saladman27
06. Saudade

Even-Night Tracker

07. Vorkuta

Night 1 Watcher

08. profii
09. Wake88

Night 3 Loyal Jailkeeper

*
10. Looker

Multitasking Novice Rolecop

11. alimdia

*Claimed

Claims

[profii]

Due to an unintentional reveal, this is setup information is being given to all players. This was the only information revealed.

25. Mafia have daytalk and

2 members

.

Worth noting

[profii]

Game narrative- alimdia pushed looker hard day 1 so the feeling is he is likely town

Vortuka was lurking quite a lot so he got lynched and then we rush lynched saudade for trolling basically

For an unexplained reasons scum haven't been able to make a night kill

[profii]

It's worth noting a lot of the flips have had modifiers to reduce their usage so I dunno if a doc would be acting every night

Wake also claimed Loyal after his initial claim and claimed to JK me on N3 so I'm hoping he protected me if anything

[profii]

I wish you'd read the thread Eve

Loyal definition is on the wiki and also explained in the last 2 pages: fails if targets town

As for why I'm not claiming the rest.. read the thread

What it doesn't mean that at all

It means only successful if you target your own alignment

By you saying fails if targets town is making an assumption the loyal person is scum - we don't know that

[profii]

I'm not going to vote someone because someone else has said 'I'm a bit dubious of that claim'

If you can convince me that person has done something scummy, I'm listening.

[profii]

If you have an established meta that you can quote, that just makes it more probable that when you roll scum you would try to play consciously how you think town!wake plays - if anything that's a negative argument.

As for bussing, you voted for Elbirn today, who voted for looker on day 1 and managed to get off the wagon before it went through so it's fair to say someone you thought was scum#2 bussed scum#1 during day 1 but managed to get off the wagon so I dont think that argument holds any weight either.

i will be looking at Salad's posts though, that's an interesting point by Plank.

[profii]

I only claimed because I was a little dubious about Wake's claim. so I guess here is my full claim.

I am Town Night 3 doctor. To have a JK and a doctor on the same night? idk I was suspicious, so I pushed wake really hard about his claim.
I protected Elbirn last night. I am not notified if my ability failed or not (I asked the mod)

My breadcrumb on Day 2 when I saw that nobody died:

Alright guys, I'm posting all my reads now, partly because if there isn't actually a

doctor

out there, I won't make it til Day orl

Night 3

. If there is, please protect me again.

I specifically said Night 3 when it should really be Day 3 in order to crumb. I said the no doctor part to crumb and WIFOM scum.

When I saw nobody died, my first assumption was that there was
Night 1 doctor, Night 2 doctor and Night 3 doctor. That was quickly proven wrong when Vorkuta flipped however.

If we think its possible to have a night 3 loyal JK and doctor, then I'll look at saladman as mentioned when I am free.

haha well this made things easy for me, I went looking for breadcrumbs in your ISO and somehow I missed this post.

I can actually feasibly see a town JK and a town doc (both n3) in a game to try and weaken their powers - e.g.

we got no kill last night - you said you protected Elbirn, so does that make Elbirn town? no - because we have a JK, who loyal/jailed me - so does that mean Elbirn tried to shoot me? Does that mean Scum tried to shoot elbirn or me?

We can't narrow it down so whilst we got the advantage of no NK, we dont clear anyone.

it actually adds up if you want my take on setup spec.

[profii]

Theres no world in which theres a N3 Doctor and a N3 Jailkeeper

I also expect wake is the only person here who would no kill every night as scum

So I'm just gonna sit here

This is where I get really confused because in my head it makes sense but... the amount of times I'm right on setup spec = approx 0

[profii]

I guess there is a way of looking at this as

Doctor = protective
Loyal JK = can only protect and potentially nerf another PR

[profii]

Theres no world in which theres a N3 Doctor and a N3 Jailkeeper

I also expect wake is the only person here who would no kill every night as scum

So I'm just gonna sit here

This is where I get really confused because in my head it makes sense but... the amount of times I'm right on setup spec = approx 0

Well I look at it like this, both roles do essentially the same thing. A jailkeeper is just a doctor that also roleblocks. I'd be dubious if both of them were claimed in the same setup. I am especially dubious considering they both have a N3 modifier. And I think that if scum had a roleblocker, fake claiming jailkeeper makes sense.

yeah I get it, I'd vote wake to clear it up to be honest

[profii]

Did mod announce if scum can multitask? That could explain all the no kills

First flip was multitasking in the role

So maybe the 2nd isn't

Seems low power for a 2 man team

[profii]

I have to keep reminding myself Elbirn is Wimpy who did that very town looking replace out

[profii]

Agree that eve should at least read day 1 - I've provided summary of what you are looking for with the peak VCs so start there

If we say alimdia/elbirn/me/plank are a town block we should be able to work out a lynch path to Lylo assuming that scum will start killing out that block at some point

[profii]

Kinda say we lynch wake first
If he flips town loyal n3 jk then we have to deal with serious alimdia paranoia but if he is scum I would say ali is lock town but we actually just won

[profii]

Profii turns in the wind, and if he's actually Town he needs to be smarter than this.

If this doesn't scream to you "he obviously doesn't know what's going on, he must be town" then nothing ever will

[profii]

UNVOTE:

[profii]

and make sure he gets lynched?

you say that but i feel like the credit goes to alimdia for the looker lynch

[profii]

If you want to figure out the people not voting looker why did you vote salad

[profii]

And another. In the queues he /out of everything saying “mafiascum has deteriorated.”. Can’t say what happened in the other game cause it’s still ongoing.

So it seems you are saying wimpys replace out is irrelevant- what alignment are you reading elbirn as and why

[profii]

Well I'm not my question was tailored quite specifically to address my concerns that salad is making a meal over the replace out being NAI but also placing his vote on you without citing a real reason

I am purposely making the assumption salad believes the replace out is irrelevant so he either says no its scummy which would really be a bit of a backtrack imo or see if he comes up with a bonafide reason for scum reading you

[profii]

eve are you an alt?

[profii]

I knew there was something weird going on

[profii]

Theres a vibe like you don't know what's going on but it didn't seem real- kinda makes sense that you're an alt

[profii]

As with pretty much any action in this game, (in this example quick hammering) it could be scummy, it could be poor town play.
You have identified in hindsight that it was a bad idea. It really would have been useful to get Saudade and Vortuka to hard claim their night actions as have lost 2 valuable bits of info.

so let's go back and reconsider my position on Elbirn. Elbirns play seems really scummy in isolation but I have been giving the slot "as a whole" the benefit of the doubt because of Wimpy play - some said that he caused a massive distraction by getting into a 1v1 with Vortuka and then just left, when actually the prolonged distraction is a good scum play.

Now we know 2 more facts since that event - Vortuka = town & apparently Wimpy left the site in it's entirity not just this game - I assumed he just didnt actually like being involved in the 1v1 but there is a now a chance he had to leave the site for personal reasons and the 1v1 was just good scum play.


The other thing to consider is we have had 2 protections on N3, Wake JK on me + Almidia on Elbirn. Now would the scum target me because I think I'm a pretty hard lynch - i dont feel like I've come under any significant pressure or would they target Elbirn because everyone was saying the Wimpy replace out was so towny... I can't call it. I'm actually leaning Elbirn because not too many people have played with me and are familiar enough with me to know that I can be obv town and hard to lynch so it makes Elbirn more likely.


So that means I'm not going to lynch Ali, me, Elbirn, UltimatePlank as he seems obv town for his play outside of all the above.

Leaving
Elements
Eve
Salad
Wake

I am rubbish at setup spec so I dont want to categorically say there can or can't be 2 protectives. I believe Ali, but there is every chance Wake could be a Disloyal Scum JK and tried to stop my PR as I was insinuating I might be protective as well. If Wake is N3 I could believe he was multitasking in a game where it's 2v9.

I think Ali was on the same wavelength when I was insinuating doctor which is why he didnt scum read me for doing it but it does raise question over the Loyal JK claim. I cannot believe you wouldnt check your role after 3 days if you didnt know what Loyal meant, if you did you would have realised you were a protective as well and should be gunning for my lynch or giving me the wink of knowing what i was doing.



I dont like Eve because I have also picked up on the lack of experience vibe which blatantly isn't true.
elements is sneaking under the radar a little bit and Salad is also very quiet.


I really dont know what to do

[profii]

I’ll hammer, I guess. I mean who needs a claim when you can have a flip?
VOTE: Look

VC 1.FINAL

Looker (6): Wake88, alimdia, Elements, profii, UltimatePlank, Saladman27 (Lynch)

UltimatePlank (2):

Looker, Zote the Mighty

Wake88 (2):

Saudade, Vorkuta

Not Voting (1):

Elbirn

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-18 03:00:00)

One of the things that bugs me about Salad is this.

Salad's post 662 was made at: Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:37 am
and you can see the deadline in the VC quote of 18th Nov
We had a good 2 days to push Looker to claim and Salad just jumped in with a hammer. No one criticises it because scum flip but it's still bad town play to just hammer imo.
but the issue I have is that's a pretty confident hammer. On reflection maybe a better player than I would say that Looker's behaviour was obtuse and obviously scummy but that is easy to say in hindsight.

I feel like Salad was perhaps resigned to the fact of losing his team mate when the wagon didnt die off so cashed in on the town cred.

[profii]

VOTE: salad

Time to get moving

[profii]

It's probably sensible to declare intent on salad and get that particular claim done so if we like his claim we have a couple of days to reassess- that's what I meant by time to get moving but perhaps I should have been more clear

[profii]

so do we take the chance on the salad VT claim or do we run up someone else?

IF we decide to go elsewhere I'm probably going to Eve.

[profii]

I mean I liked that Wake wanted to be a team player by declaring he wasn't going to hammer so...

[profii]

IF we decide to go elsewhere I'm probably going to Eve.

Why would eve fake hammer an otherwise easy mislynch?

Because I've been giving wake a hard time consistently for the same thing so I'd obviously do it to her if that lynch turned town

Any reason you need to defend eve in particular ?

[profii]

you worry me elements

[profii]

Someone actually hammer- hours to deadline

[profii]

What do you mean likely a 2nd ... do you not have faith in your JK

[profii]

What do you mean likely a 2nd ... do you not have faith in your JK

We had 3 no-kills, profii, in a row.

Assuming my JK N3 protected you, that means there were still 2 no-kills on days 1 and 2.

...

Then again, alimdia may have used his Doctor ability N3 and stopped the kill, and you may in fact still be Scum, because my Loyal JK ability on you would not have worked if you were Scum.

I'll try and make this super clear:

NIGHT 1 - no kill - explaination - not locked down but very certain in my mind - Ali was a very strong advocate for the Looker lynch, therefore a highly likely target. He flipped bullet proof. This makes sense. I'm not really going to entertain any other theories unless they are very compelling.

NIGHT 2 - no kill - unexplained - we have no claims to suggest anyone was bullet proof or protected on night 2 so it's a mystery as to why scum didnt kill.

NIGHT 3 - no kill - 2 explainations: 1) Wake Loyal JK on Profii - if we believe the claim, you protected me, I might have been the target. 2) Ali protected Elbirn - Ali flipped town doc, so he is almost certainly telling the truth. But that only means Elbirn MIGHT have been the target, which does not confirm me or Elbirn. My opinion is that at least one of scenarios 1) & 2) actually happened but we can't prove either. There is also a possbility both 1) and 2) happened so both of us are town.

[profii]

I think we massclaim and potentially nolynch today

Tomorrow is mylo potential if we lynch now from a pool of 6

If we nolynch today, we lynch from.pool.of 5 and then it puts us at a lylo of 3 people.

Basically either way we need to get one correct lynch for town to win, but we're statistically better off nolynching today.

1/4 and then 1/2 odds compared to 1/5 and 1/3 (at Mylo)

Or we can nolynch tomorrow, but it doesn't really make senae to not take better odds today also

Do we want to mass claim pre-no lynch and tell scum who the PRs are (if there are any left, it's a mystery obviously)

I do agree with a no lynch today though.

[profii]

so you're saying because there's a possibility ali healed someone you're loyal JK must have failed on profii?

no reason ali healed Elbirn and I sat in jail doing nothing at all

VOTE: plank

what?

[profii]

because...?

[profii]

because...?

to which bit?

"Of those three I think Plank is the most likely scum."

[profii]

Are we claiming or not?

Do we have any results or not?

plenty of time to do some actual scum hunting for now. If you do that first, it makes it harder to fake a claim

[profii]

Is there anything about Eve that you have noted and thought "yes that makes them towny"

[profii]

*Breathes in deep.*

*Trying to be calm. Real calm.*

Guys, I think we should mass-claim. It's getting to that point.

Why don't you say who you think is town or who you think is scum and include why rather than just saying mass claim mass claim

[profii]

Only person I townread is Wake

But

why

?

Yeah can people please start giving reasons so we have some chance to solve this game

[profii]

you worry me elements

you worry me elements

in what way?

I purposely said this and didnt answer the question because I figured if I hinted that I had a problem with Elements and he is the scum, he might kill me.

I town read Wake in light of Ali's death - I think that Scum have revealed the doctor flip to us, when Ali claimed N3 to cast doubt over Wake, which inherently implies town!wake.

UltimatePlank has the most gamesolve about him so I am ok with him.

That leaves us with Eve and Elbirn. I say we go No Lynch -> Eve (probably win) -> Elbirn (surprised if we get this far but never under estimate the power of town being wrong - which is where I think I scum read Elbirn earlier)

That's where I'm at.

[profii]

I'm in for a no lynch

[profii]

well if anyone actually could, we would have solved the game by now, that is basically the point of us being here - give us your best guesses man

[profii]

I'm in for a no lynch

Is that optimal play in this situation?

I think it's sensbile for scum to rule out a mislynch for us at this point.

[profii]

well if anyone actually could, we would have solved the game by now, that is basically the point of us being here - give us your best guesses man

You - you're not cleared by my Loyal N3 JK ability, because if you were Scum literally nothing would happen.

Eve - plays at being a dumb noob but I don't buy it. Forgot already who the replacement was. Zote? If Zote he didn't do squat.

Plank - something tells me he's just too smooth and blending in for my liking. His activity level, like yours profii kind of makes me more comfortable, but then again Scum can be busy too.

Elbirn - should NOT be given a pass from the Wimpy wimp-out. His sudden turn against me in complete contrast to his earlier posts disturbs me.

Elements - I can't fucking tell with this guy.

Are you playing dumb so that when you are alive in LyLo you can say scum kept you here because you are clearly lost?

[profii]

I'm going to have to look at some of Wakes previous town games to see if this lack of reading is normal or not.

[profii]

It could be Eve, Elbirn, profii, or Plank. Fuck, it could be Elements too.

Who here thinks I'm Town and thinks Scum deliberately killed alimdia to doubt-cast my claim?

Wake literally listed every player in the game as "possibly scum".

How many times will I have to point out that wake has no reads and is very transparently keeping his lynch options open because he is scum?

I considered that, but it also bugs me that Eve has never provided a read at all on me, so i assume i am in line to die next

[profii]

VOTE: no lynch

[profii]

I think scum will make this easy for us tonight

[profii]

how can you sigh about a no lynch, you want to lynch literally every player