Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 - Snowdin Snowdown


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Post Post #9 (isolation #0) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:24 am

Post by Oversoul »

Let’s not

HURT: Elements
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Post Post #13 (isolation #1) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:36 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 11, Wisdom wrote:We identify four townies and win. Townhunting is better than scumhunting and this playerlist is good for application
But but fight song :(
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Post Post #42 (isolation #2) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:54 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 33, Elements wrote:
In post 9, Oversoul wrote:Let’s not

HURT: Elements
Last game you entered with a heal not a hurt. Coincidence? I think not.
HURT: oversoul
Its almost as if there’s a reason for the difference.
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Post Post #51 (isolation #3) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:57 am

Post by Oversoul »

HURT: Elements
HURT: Elements
HURT: Elements
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Post Post #54 (isolation #4) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:58 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 47, Wisdom wrote:oversoul on the other hand looks scummy so far
mmmm no

I’m obvtown and this is a game I don’t even need to make myself obvtown in
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Post Post #60 (isolation #5) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:01 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 57, Wisdom wrote:youre certainly not obvtown
and you have the capability to be.
I am certainly obvtown, but like I said it isn’t going to be an issue this game
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Post Post #67 (isolation #6) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:05 am

Post by Oversoul »

Not gonna say we lost because Chennis was a wrong dawg all game last game, but :shifty:

Nah, Elements played a really good game
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Post Post #69 (isolation #7) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:06 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 61, Elements wrote:I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.
It’s ok. Becoming obvtown is the only thing I can do. I can’t play scum, I can’t scumhunt, but I can obvtown
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Post Post #72 (isolation #8) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:07 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 70, Elements wrote:
In post 69, Oversoul wrote:
In post 61, Elements wrote:I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.
It’s ok. Becoming obvtown is the only thing I can do. I can’t play scum, I can’t scumhunt, but I can obvtown
can you obvtown as scum?
For like a day. Then I lurk. And then I die.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #9) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:08 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 71, Wisdom wrote:why do you think becoming obvtown is not important here? It looks pretty important especially if we go for pacifist

@oversoul
I mean it is important in this game, but I don’t think we should go pacifist unfortunately :(
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Post Post #80 (isolation #10) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:12 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 74, Wisdom wrote:sounds like you did it last game and it backfired?
Among other reasons
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Post Post #86 (isolation #11) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:18 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 81, Wisdom wrote:now you have players like nacho and mastina here tho.
This doesn’t help lol. I will never be able to read either of them
Or you for that matter
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Post Post #94 (isolation #12) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:23 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 90, Wisdom wrote:so you think the mixed route is better? what about the genocide one
The only way mixed is worth doing is 1-3/3-1. 2-2 is town loss automatically if there’s a scum I’m pretty sure. That’s what I remember from thinking about it last game

But I don’t think Neutral is the way to go
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Post Post #97 (isolation #13) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:29 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 95, Wisdom wrote:so far nymph and gingie are on my radar for awkward entrances
Elements is at the top of my list
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Post Post #101 (isolation #14) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:37 am

Post by Oversoul »

Post 45 really
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Post Post #110 (isolation #15) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:02 am

Post by Oversoul »

It’s a blatant rolefish
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Post Post #114 (isolation #16) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:15 am

Post by Oversoul »

Neutral is actually the statistically least likely to win for town I’m pretty sure
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Post Post #118 (isolation #17) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:30 am

Post by Oversoul »

ISO pops in either the game thread, the mod thread, dead thread, or setup thread from the last game. I can’t remember where I read it but that’s where it would be located
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Post Post #188 (isolation #18) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:36 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 185, Rakan wrote:
In post 181, Ginngie wrote:i'll try to make sense of it in the morning lmfao

rakan who you staring at rn
To kill? Oversoul.

Though I do still have an attachment to going spare-kill-spare-spare

I'm thinking this game plan up as I go along, I'm thinking it is best to put people we trust in the 3 spares after all, since both sides are essentially revealed (if you know 1 scum is in 3 people, you know 1 is in the other 2)
How about no, lover boy. We are not killing me. If anything we are sparing me.
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Post Post #204 (isolation #19) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:51 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 112, popsofctown wrote:
In post 109, volxen wrote:
In post 104, popsofctown wrote:I don't know if you've read the whole dead thread but I've calculated the level of fake townspew needed for scum to win Pacifist and Genocide routes to be equivalent.
Both me and my partner didn't really like Genocide because it requires you to pull off four mislynches to win. Usually when scum needs four mislynches it's because there are three scum. Four mislynches is a lot to pull off when there are only two scum. Not to mention that Genocide gives town the most information by far, with consistent flips along with the LOVE mechanic, which can be leashed/controlled.

There are other reasons why Pacifist benefits scum as well. One big one -- which surprisingly wasn't brought up a lot in the game thread -- is that it usually is easier to fake a townread on a townie than it is to fake a scumread on them. With the Pacifist route, the game primarily revolves around townhunting rather than scumhunting, which appealed to both me and my partner. I think on some level the Pacifist route is easier than the Genocide (or even Neutral) route as scum, because with each mislynch wagon that you are on you open yourself up to more and more scrutiny as the town gains more and more information. Whereas the Pacifist route denies town of key information and allows the town (if it is not vigilant) to be lulled into a false sense of security. And in particular, it allows you push your partner towards a spare on the grounds that they are the towniest player in the game. You can do this without consequence as long as everyone is convinced that it is optimal to stay on the Pacifist route rather than switch to the Neutral route. Even if you are unable to get yourself spared after getting your partner spared, it still hurts town when the core is reached in the Pacifist route because no one can ever prove that you were scum.
The idea is that this 9-2 setup has one more mislynch needed than, say, a newbie queue micro, but far less town power. I kind of question the "far less town power" part and am usually the one in open setup design pushing against high town EVs, which is why I ran this setup with several of Something_Smart's more powerful potential roles excluded and suggested a last minute nerf for Asgore.
The prevailing belief when the setup was being workshopped is that Pacifist was generally the most attractive route. I think when there are strong arguments both ways and the answer seems unclear that's exciting.

I want to point out that the scum can leverage some of your benefits for the pacifist route when playing the genocide route! Day 1 in a standard 2 scum game, if day 1 is ultimately going to be a d1 correct lynch, a scumpartner either has to be placing a vote that is wrong, or helping shoot his own foot. In Undertale you can vanity wagon a spare on another player and lose far less towncred for failing to participate in the lynch. The spare was even correct!

I'm optimistic the smalltown design can create more tempting reasons to bail into neutral.
In post 1, Something_Smart wrote:A few setup notes:

Obviously, what I want from this setup is for all three routes to be potentially attractive options. They all have different benefits and drawbacks but I want the overall strength to be about the same.

I did EV calculations for Pacifist and Genocide without the PR. Pacifist was 46%, Genocide 35%. This is assuming that town no-lynches in post-Core MYLO, making the EV there 1/3.

I think the Pacifist numbers are good. The named townie aspect barely raises town EV (the only time it matters is if the PR is spared without claiming and they aren't killed no-lynching in the Core), and the Pacifist PR's are intentionally weak. Alphys got a buff since Jingle commented on her, but I do agree that she's still probably too weak to use, since you risk ruining a town win outright. I'm considering some mechanic where she's made more likely to spare a town (i.e. pick two people and one of them is spared, randomly if they're the same alignment but always town if they are different).

Genocide's a bit worrying. The named townie aspect definitely matters here, but probably only for 5-10% or so. The Genocide PR's, particularly Undyne (and the fact that Sans can WIFOM being Undyne to try to avoid dying), are meant to make up most of the rest of the gap. I'm fine with Genocide being lower EV than Pacifist, because Genocide is the highest info route and Pacifist is the lowest.

Neutral's a pain. There are a lot of moving parts, and this is the route that needs the most analysis. Quick breakdown of the different options:
1 kill (LV 1): Core will be 6 alive with 2 confirmed town (no scum spared) or 5 alive with one scum confirmed in a group of 3 (scum spared).

2 kills (LV 2): Sparing one scum and not killing the other is game over. Beyond that, one scum spared and one killed is 4 alive with a 1v1 (autowin if Asgore is outside of the 1v1), and otherwise game goes to 5 alive.

3 kills (LV 3): No killed scum is autoloss. Interestingly, if the one spared player is scum town autowins, making it a benefit to spare scum here. Otherwise, the one spared player will be confirmed town and will presumably die, leaving 4 alive and making this route functionally equivalent to Genocide. If town spares a single player and later decides they were probably scum, this route is beneficial.


In post 140, popsofctown wrote:I made a bunch of changes to my smalltown draft here: post 36

Some of it is based on his feedback about Pacifist vs. Genocide. I find a lot of it persuasive. Genocide being 2-9 mountainous is kind of like, balanced anyway, 2-9 mountainous is probably fine, and this new setup is stronger than 2-9 mountainous in the sense that you have options to bail into neutral if it offers a higher win%.
The Love mechanic was probably always about making Genocide less boring rather than more balanced, I think. So I put a genocide PR that is pretty interesting but a bit lower on power.
The current revision has two roles that can't be spared or are difficult to spare, which to me seems like a more interesting way to balance pacifist against neutral rather than jacking up the required number of spares to 5 or something. If the two roles that are both difficult to spare seem really townie this game, maybe this isn't the best time to go pacifist. If those two roles are both really scummy, cool go for it.
It'd be cool if I could manage more of that dynamic on the genocide side, but setting up a role that is just "you can't lynch this player" or "you can't lynch this player until X" happens is concerning. People get upset about governors and gladiators, and when there is no player's actions to blame for a mechanical inability to lynch someone who's openwolfing they might be even more upset. There is at least Moldsymal, a design a really like, who might get a hard guilty on night 1 but pretty much cuts neutral route out of consideration if he connects. And of course Metatron can verify an increase in townpoints and pull players towards neutral, that works on both pure paths.

EDIT: Oh wait, I lied, I did do a half-unlynchable slot. Ehhhh.. I think it's fine, it's too cute.
In post 25, popsofctown wrote:RC suggested looking at setup balance in terms of where mafia have to stand in "towniness rankings" to win and I think that's a really interesting way to look at it.

Suppose everyone locks in a unanimous reads ranking D1 and it never changes, what placements do the mafia have to get to win? If the PR were removed in Undertale, its:

Pacifist: One mafia needs to appear to be 5th towniest player in the game or better. The potential to clean sweep doesn't affect win%.
Genocide: One mafia needs to appear to be the 5th towniest player in the game, but successfully claiming both the 6th and 7th positions claims a sweep. And the sweep happens before the player with the most LOVE is revealed.
Neutral: I'll come back to this sometime Neutral is complicated.

With 2 potential players on the team potentially hitting that fifth place spot the town probably does need some power, I should keep that in mind when I design smalltown.

I really like setups that are hard on town but also in a way I like the idea of doing a redesign that is easier on town because having just 1 weak PR is unhelpful to town kind of randomly when that player would have been townread anyway and the power whiffs.
I want the setup to have like a 1-cop of unconfirmed alignment for example and then we get the same clear, but it's a clear that someone selected instead of me going on random.org before this game and deciding Chemist would eventually be an IC this game.

---

Gingie, these are the posts that show Neutral is really not desirable and something that the game designers themselves have been struggling with. Obviously, some changes have been made in terms of the power roles available for this game and it was discovered that Genocide/Pacifist are really not that far off from one another in terms of EV.
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Post Post #205 (isolation #20) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:52 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I'm obvtown because nothing I'm doing is to a scum agenda, let alone an Oversoul scum agenda?
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Post Post #209 (isolation #21) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 2:57 pm

Post by Oversoul »

There's no explicit percentage given because it is so variable, but if you read SS's posts two out of the 3 neutral options almost guarantee town loss if they flub on a scum Kill.
I will say that 2-2 seems like the worst possible option to choose because it opens town up to losing two fold - once on the double scum in spare and once on a scum in spare with no scum kill (which is made more likely by the fact that there is a scum in the spare).
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Post Post #212 (isolation #22) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:02 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 210, Rakan wrote:
In post 205, Oversoul wrote:I'm obvtown because nothing I'm doing is to a scum agenda, let alone an Oversoul scum agenda?
Doing nothing doesn't make you look like town
Oversoul wrote:There's no explicit percentage given because it is so variable, but if you read SS's posts two out of the 3 neutral options almost guarantee town loss if they flub on a scum Kill.
I will say that 2-2 seems like the worst possible option to choose because it opens town up to losing two fold - once on the double scum in spare and once on a scum in spare with no scum kill (which is made more likely by the fact that there is a scum in the spare).
But we get to choose which neutral option to use, yet you applied a broad brushstroke "neutral is bad" and said it was because of statistics.

What route do you want to go for?
1. That isn't what I said. Why are you misquoting what I said?

2. Yes... because 2 out of the 3 are bad so the path is more bad than either Genocide/Spare just by that virtue. I want to go Genocide.
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Post Post #267 (isolation #23) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:22 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 226, Rakan wrote:I don't think it's worth discussing other reads before the mafia nightkill. Why do you think I should discuss other reads?

I'm willing to talk mechanics, why we should or shouldn't pick neutral.

As for Oversoul: He's either a pr and will die tonight if we don't spare him, or he's fake softing and should be killed for that
This is really short sighted on so many levels.
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Post Post #268 (isolation #24) » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:50 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Is this the game where Mastina finally reads me correctly as town or is that still a pipe dream
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Post Post #270 (isolation #25) » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:08 am

Post by Oversoul »

True
I’m glad you and Nacho are here to read her
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Post Post #275 (isolation #26) » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:19 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Why is Rakan super aggro
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Post Post #277 (isolation #27) » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm

Post by Oversoul »

HEAL: Wisdom

I think he feels town given my temporal awareness of his play
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Post Post #278 (isolation #28) » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:51 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 275, Oversoul wrote:Why is Rakan super aggro
Who are you actually Rakan
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Post Post #321 (isolation #29) » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:55 am

Post by Oversoul »

HEAL: Chemist

I will have more this evening
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Post Post #338 (isolation #30) » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:22 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 328, Elements wrote:I think Chennis is scum from how badly he's reading me
Chennis is playing pretty much the same way he played the last Undertale game. I think he is more than likely town this game for that reason.
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Post Post #339 (isolation #31) » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:18 am

Post by Oversoul »

Gah do I want to blow this game up or not. Decisions
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Post Post #383 (isolation #32) » Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:18 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I think this is town Chennisden.
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Post Post #425 (isolation #33) » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:13 am

Post by Oversoul »

I disagree with the Chemist scum read Nacho and think that you’re scumreading it very odd. :? You’re nornally good at nuanced reads when it comes to bad town I feel like.
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Post Post #544 (isolation #34) » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:27 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Nacho’s posting is not sitting well with me.

HEAL: Rakan

Please Spare Chemist when I die I am 99% sure he is town. Please kill Elements f you do not
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Post Post #545 (isolation #35) » Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:29 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Wisdom seems pretty town too. Could spare him over a Chemist but he also has potential scum equity in spare room
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Post Post #549 (isolation #36) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:35 pm

Post by Oversoul »

HEAL: Chemist

We should just go for spare win

Pedit: hmmm
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Post Post #556 (isolation #37) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I think that Chemist is town because of his :? Post he made at me. Really don’t think he tries to take that potshot at me as scum
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Post Post #557 (isolation #38) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:47 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Why did you hurt me yesterday Xayah?
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Post Post #561 (isolation #39) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:55 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I’m sad I didn’t try to town more people up because I was really hoping for a low key spare room that would coast under the big names
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Post Post #562 (isolation #40) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:56 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Why would I kill chenn? I definitely kill Nacho or Mastina as scum because they know how to read me
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Post Post #564 (isolation #41) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:59 pm

Post by Oversoul »

This type of game is weird. I wonder if I can keep up my 100% town spare rate. I hope Rakan was town but he probably was for reasons :shifty:
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Post Post #566 (isolation #42) » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:01 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I do think this kill implicates the big 3
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Post Post #604 (isolation #43) » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:19 am

Post by Oversoul »

Why do all my games have night owls :(
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Post Post #606 (isolation #44) » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:35 am

Post by Oversoul »

Elements what’s your read on Chemist?
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Post Post #608 (isolation #45) » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:48 am

Post by Oversoul »

That actually gives me an idea
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Post Post #610 (isolation #46) » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:00 am

Post by Oversoul »

I need to do a little research that likely won’t happen until after this weekend. It might be worthless though because NKA is usually bad
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Post Post #612 (isolation #47) » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:08 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 600, Ginngie wrote:
In post 598, Nymph wrote:I'll join if I can't get my mastina lynch.
Either pacifist or neutral at this point but everyone’s comfortable with me being town so if we go 2:2 then that would give us Rakan alignment 100%.
How would it give us Rakan alignment 100%?
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Post Post #658 (isolation #48) » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:01 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 654, Ginngie wrote:I advocate for the neutral route

I’m what makes the PT a cop shot so I’m spared, then lynching two is probably Gucci cuz the math has the same amount of people after D4 in every scenario so let’s get 2 flips and a cop shot
Are you claiming this because you’re the PR or you think you’re that obvtown?
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Post Post #687 (isolation #49) » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:23 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 680, Elements wrote:Constantly saying he doesn't want to be spared. The first time, fine you want to contribute, the next however many times combined with "i want pacifist" trying hard to be townread and become the de facto 5th spare to win scum the game.
There’s only a 5th spare if we are wrong on the first 4. Is this a condemnation of Rakan or of this town?
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Post Post #688 (isolation #50) » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:24 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I would appreciate Gingie answeing my qustion
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Post Post #690 (isolation #51) » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:21 pm

Post by Oversoul »

You must be fun at parties.
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Post Post #695 (isolation #52) » Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:40 am

Post by Oversoul »

Nymph, who are you scumreading currently
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Post Post #711 (isolation #53) » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:34 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 708, Ginngie wrote:wisdom focus on Elements

Oversoul... do that obvtown shit you've been talking about cuz you did say you lurk and die and you have not been a driving force in the game to wager you as town
I'm getting there
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Post Post #713 (isolation #54) » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:37 am

Post by Oversoul »

Oddly enough, that was one post of yours that I did not think was hostile

Have you been hammer spared?
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Post Post #715 (isolation #55) » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:38 am

Post by Oversoul »

Is this deja vu from the last game where the only scum got through on spares when I didn't vote for it? :THONK:
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Post Post #716 (isolation #56) » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:39 am

Post by Oversoul »

My problem is that both Gingie AND Rakan were heavily softing PR.
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Post Post #728 (isolation #57) » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:14 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Just once I’d like to be nightkilled
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Post Post #729 (isolation #58) » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:16 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I’m pretty sure with these crap kills that there’s scum in the big three which makes me want to spare only the little three

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Post Post #731 (isolation #59) » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:20 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Big three = nacho, Mastina, Wisdom
Little three = me, xayah, chemist

You have high scum equity in my mind so I left you out
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Post Post #737 (isolation #60) » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:26 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Oh god am I getting pocketed. I’m so suspectibel to townreads. Someone scumread me so I can see your reasoning is bad and Lynch you
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Post Post #747 (isolation #61) » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:17 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I think sparing is actually the better move than lynching. If we have spared scum already and then lynch a townie we essentially just lose
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Post Post #749 (isolation #62) » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm

Post by Oversoul »

vla 3 days
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Post Post #799 (isolation #63) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:07 am

Post by Oversoul »

I am sorry that I have been awol. I will be here late today and late tomorrow
But I am somewhat surprised about what has all happened yesterday because it felt like it happened very quickly
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Post Post #801 (isolation #64) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:36 am

Post by Oversoul »

Over myself? No

Debating if we should spare or fight today since it was ruined yesterday
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Post Post #804 (isolation #65) » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:41 am

Post by Oversoul »

I could probably do Chemist
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Post Post #808 (isolation #66) » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:46 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 806, Chemist1422 wrote:I don't really want Oversoul spared

If we're sparing anyone today I'd prefer myself or mastina
Why don't you townread me? I find this odd given our playing history together, Chemist.

I want to townread Mastina, but I honestly can't read her for the life of me. She will always occupy my blindspot and I honestly can't tell if she's buddying me or if this legitimate. It is a sad comment on my play when I base a lot of my scumreads on how people read me. I guess that's hypocritical and contradictory though.

That said, I do not like how fast this game is going. I apologize for contributing to it the first game day, but I don't think how we ended the last two days is what we should do for this game day.

Xayah, what are your current reads? Your hammer on nacho came out of nowhere.
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Post Post #810 (isolation #67) » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:24 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 809, Chemist1422 wrote:my brain is failing to actively evaluate and I didn't like your hammer D1
What is particularly bad about my hammer?
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Post Post #816 (isolation #68) » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I’ll get to this when I’m in a better mood. But I don’t know if I’ll ever be in a better mood since the deadline is close.
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Post Post #818 (isolation #69) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:30 am

Post by Oversoul »

I’ll be here tonight but just saying if I don’t go then Chemist should be the one to go.
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Post Post #825 (isolation #70) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:21 am

Post by Oversoul »

Mastina I think if there’s scum in the spare chat it is Gingie. His spare happened very inorganically in my opinion. I was townreading Rakan’s aggression against me and my antics which is why I spared him. To Chemist, I like to think I am playing this game almost how I played the last Undertale game. I am less active here but I am also less toxic. I was only less active here because Baton Pass was a game I really wanted to win and it was an absolute slog to deal with past a certain point. That game made me hate mafia and honestly sapped my will to play.
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Post Post #833 (isolation #71) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:43 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I think I am most struggling with Day 2's selection. Day 2 lasted all of 5 days. The last two votes and hammer on Ginngie came within a short period of time and it doesn't help that I have been scumreading one of the people who facilitated the speed of that day (Elements).

I find it especially odd that Elements would do such a thing despite everyone generally poo-poo'ing my speed spare tactic from the last game when I did it to Chennisden. Elements' behavior in context of what we know from last game is why I am having such a hard time believing he is town. I just do not think Elements acts the way he does in this game knowing all the things we know from that game.

However, now that I look back at what happened on Day 3, my stronger town read on Chemist did the same thing by quickhammering Nacho. I find that especially interesting given the fact that Chemist is now scumreading me for quicksparing Rakan when he quicklynched Nacho. I will maintain that quick sparing is not as detrimental as quicklynching by the simple reason we get to technically keep spares alive. I'm not sure if this hypocrisy is scum motivated. I don't know if Chemist is the type of scum player to try and keep his actions in a specific line/trajectory, or if he is a more play it by ear person. Honestly Day 2 and Day 3 happened so fast while I was wasting all of my time with Baton Pass is why I have literally no understanding or basis in this game. I basically wasn't even here for either of those day phases because they lasted less than a week, collectively.

I am beginning to wonder if that is designed to try and hold my activity against me since that is my main scumtell... Something that Chemist openly acknowledged earlier in the game. It is interesting that he is now scumreading me.

Mastina is a hard one... like Mastina and Nacho have intimate knowledge of me. They have played with me my entire career on this site. I am pretty sure both of them were in my first ever game on this site. But my general knowledge base of how Mastina behaved with me is that she almost always scumread me... and I almost always scumread her out of paranoia. She is a good scumplayer and I never wanted her to have upperhand on me. It helped that we could lock into an eagle death spiral of mutual scum reads on one another. The fact that she is so quick to townread me despite my activity being closer to my scum game. If there is one tell that I have it is that my activity is highly alignment indicative. I'm not sure how much Nacho influenced her to read me, but this is giving me pause on mastina given our extensive history together.

Then there is Xayah... who has in my mind done nothing except for quickhammer Nacho. Mariar has been commonly heralded as a good scumplayer by people on this site, but whenever I have played with scum mariar (in the Hidden Happiness hydra) she has just lurked her way through games. While I don't generally see the lurkiness here, mainly because it seems like everyone has been lurking, and I also have not been here, I am having a hard time seeing the townie motivated actions... I think Maria is a good enough player to realize that quickhammering Nacho is generally a bad idea. Then again, she wasn't the one who actually quick hammered from the looks of it, but like Elements, she did make it happen.

It is funny because this game seems like the antithesis to Baton Pass. I genuinely scumread everyone who is still alive. This is why I don't want to spare anyone else other than myself. Likewise, I don't want to lynch another player because if we are wrong on the lynch and there is a scum already in the spare room, that lynch is LyLo. I am thinking if there is a scum in the spare it is Ginngie. If it is Rakan, I trust that Maria can read whoever she thought she was close enough with to make the Lover Pair alt account.

At any rate, I do not want this day phase to be as fast as the others. We actually need content to parse before we make any decision even if it seems like the majority believes in what I want to happen.

So first things first, Chemist why did you quick hammer Nacho? Why are you scumreading me for something similar to what you did?

Mastina, what is your read on Rakan and Ginngie? What do you think of Chemist/Elements?

Xayah, why are you now comfortable townreading me when you were not before? If I'm not mistaken, wasn't I a stronger scumread for you?

Elements, why are you now comfortable sparing me instead of Mastina?
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Post Post #834 (isolation #72) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:24 pm

Post by Oversoul »

MariaR I saw you here a moment ago
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Post Post #836 (isolation #73) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:34 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Answer my question...?
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Post Post #838 (isolation #74) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:36 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Why don’t you want to spare yourself, especially if you townread both the people in there?
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Post Post #840 (isolation #75) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:40 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I don’t have a specific number of games off hand but we all played in the last iteration of this game where Elements outplayed everyone.
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Post Post #841 (isolation #76) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:41 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I will say I felt fairly confident calling Chemist town last game and I do not have that feeling at all here.
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Post Post #843 (isolation #77) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:47 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I dunno. Last time I scumread Mastina was in that xyzzy anyone can post game and I was very wrong. It’s possible I’m just letting my paranoia get the better of me and truthfully I probably am. I just find Mastina so incredibly hard to read. Wisdom and Nacho were definitely two people that I had more faith than average in being able to read her. Especially Nacho because they are good friends.

Under your assumption that Rakan and aginngie are both town that means both scum are still alive. What do you think scum would be trying to do in this situation?
How does this change if one scum is in spare and 1 scum is out?
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Post Post #844 (isolation #78) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:48 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 842, Chemist1422 wrote:
In post 841, Oversoul wrote:I will say I felt fairly confident calling Chemist town last game and I do not have that feeling at all here.
Consider

school
It’s not an activity read on you really but I do have a penchant to scumread lurkers. Maybe that’s why I’m having so many scumreads this game actually now that I think about it.
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Post Post #847 (isolation #79) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:58 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 846, Xayah wrote:
In post 840, Oversoul wrote:where Elements outplayed everyone.
Outplayed how?
He was universally townread and got spared and then town cannibalized itself in LyLo.
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Post Post #848 (isolation #80) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:02 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 845, Xayah wrote:
In post 843, Oversoul wrote:Under your assumption that Rakan and aginngie are both town that means both scum are still alive. What do you think scum would be trying to do in this situation?
How does this change if one scum is in spare and 1 scum is out?
Well, it depends on how confident the scumteam is that they can beat the others. Today has been a rather lax day and it makes me question if scum are comfortable or if we've all just been lazy. Do scum not want to be spared or do they think they can get one of Rakan or Gin killed? I was trying to not be so hard on my stances at first to see if I could give scum a chance in thinking they can mislynch Rakan. But the only one who really is taking a 'Rakan scum' stance seems to be Mastina. She's had that read since day 1.

Tell me, do you think both scum are playing right now or are they in the pt?
That’s a good point about this day being lax. Hmm.

My thoughts are that if scum are not in currently in the spare, they would want to get into the spare to cast doubt on the current spare members and to get that additional kill. However, if scum are already in the spare they wouldn’t care if anyone gets spared or killed as long as the outside member isn’t getting lynched. They’ve already locked in the second kill and any doubt for spare members and if a lynch goes through on a townie they just win outright.

Now that I’m walking through this logic it really seems likely to me that scum are already in the spare given there’s been like no effort from town this phase.

I almost don’t want to be in the spare because if my thinking is correct people are just gonna incorrectly scumread me and after Baton Pass I don’t think I have the mental or physical strength to deal with that
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Post Post #851 (isolation #81) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:18 pm

Post by Oversoul »

It was impressive but I will put a feather in my cap that I was one of the only townies who did not spare vote him. :shifty:

Now that I think about it and I’m less salty he should be nommed for that performance
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Post Post #852 (isolation #82) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:24 pm

Post by Oversoul »

It possibly could. I think Rakan is probably guaranteed town in the spare. How he reacted to my early play looks very town and reminds me how Chennis reacted to me last game. Gingie looked like an echo of that. I could be totally misreading that. I truest that you can read Rakan since you’re Xayah That does make me feel better about Rakan at least


I guess why do you townread aginngie so strongly?
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Post Post #854 (isolation #83) » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:38 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In a way I feel bad for scumreading Gingie because it is partly not his fault. Part of my scumread on him is the fact that I wasn’t on his wagon and he got quick spared and he spared himself. That reminds me very much of what happened with Elements in the last game when he was quick spared.

I wish you had a better reason to townread Gingie but I guess I can’t fault that because I don’t have better radon’s to scumread him. That said, I do think you going back and forth with me is likely town indicative of what I know about you. You’ve lurked and left Shadoweh to carry too many HH games and I really expected you to just ignore my call earlier tonight. This makes me think your own call to Mastina earlier was legitimate and the intent genuine.
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Post Post #856 (isolation #84) » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:03 am

Post by Oversoul »

Xayah reminded me of something last night so I’ll amend my question to Mastina I guess. Do you still scumread Rakan? What is the basis for that scumread if so?1
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Post Post #861 (isolation #85) » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:04 pm

Post by Oversoul »

HEAL: Oversoul

Doing this so we don't just lose the day phase. Going to be catching up shortly
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Post Post #872 (isolation #86) » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:16 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Do we get to know what xayah’s alignment is?
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Post Post #886 (isolation #87) » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:37 am

Post by Oversoul »

Oh nice then it is Elements. I’m pretty much conftown since they didn’t put me into the spare group despite me being the most likely spare
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Post Post #887 (isolation #88) » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:39 am

Post by Oversoul »

As scum if we were just gonna spare scum and then kill the spare room, then I would have made sure it was me in that situation. Especially if my partner is maria who is much better at scum
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Post Post #888 (isolation #89) » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:44 am

Post by Oversoul »

Selfishly I just want to go for the win today because of my 3p LyLo ptsd from baton Pass where I got lynched despite being obvtown but I know that’s not gonna happen. *sigh*
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Post Post #900 (isolation #90) » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:41 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I’m not going to be available until Friday. I would rather we did not hammer Xayah yet.
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Post Post #910 (isolation #91) » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:06 am

Post by Oversoul »

Sorry! Busy week. But I’m almost home! Driving bow
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Post Post #911 (isolation #92) » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:11 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 889, mastina wrote:Xayah was more likely to endgame than you, but she was also more likely to endgame than Elements, too. Making her be confscum was just a misplay regardless of who was scum--so was deciding to spare a scum in the first place rather than just mislynching someone and going for a single kill to be honest. (Mislynching someone + a single nightkill = still two scum-controlled deaths, except town isn't given a confscum from it. Whereas sparing scum into a doublekill = two scum-controlled deaths, at the expense of outing the spared scum as being scum.)

Optimal scum play would've been forcing a mislynch then using a nightkill.
The second-most optimal scumplay would've been sparing the non-Xayah scum who was unlikely to endgame and relying on Xayah's strength as a scum player to see her through. (Not that that'd have worked since I'd have investigated her if given the chance and made her be confscum from it, but IN THEORY this was the smarter play than what they went with.)

So regardless of who is scum in you/Elements, the scumteam made a massive misplay in making the least-optimal choice in their actions.

That having been said: given your experience as a player versus Elements's experience as a player, I find it MORE LIKELY that Elements would make this sort of misplay than you would, so while this isn't evidence for you being town in the way you think it is, I STILL think that it IS evidence for you being town, just...for different reasons.
I mean, if I was scum with Xayah, I would have definitely advocated for me to be the person put into the spare room for pretty much the reasons you've stated. Xayah is a good scum player. I am not. I definitely am not a scum who can win in endgame.

I think between what has happened, my play, and the town cases from you and Nacho, I am as close to conftown as you can get without actually being confirmed. Like if scum are just gonna put scum into the spare room to kamikaze the whole group, I would have strongly advocated for myself to be that kamikaze. With Xayah as my partner? I definitely advocate for myself to be the kamikaze.

I think I have sufficiently played the same way that I played in the last Undertale Semi-Open. I was very much trying to draw the nightkill by wifoming if I was the PR. I thought Rakan was the PR from how he reacted to me which is why I had such a strong townread on him. It is also why I spared him so quickly.
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Post Post #912 (isolation #93) » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Post by Oversoul »

In post 893, Elements wrote:I have gone through Xayah's iso and found the scum master plan! The scum game plan was for Xaylah to push "Chem/ele/over" as the potential scum to lead to a mislynch at mylo within that group to end the game. This makes the Xayah spare make a lot of sense. It takes out the otherwise confirmed town early giving less time for them to help discuss the game state and forces the important decision to be made.

Now, you may be saying "But elements that incriminates you as much as oversoul" and by itself, yes it does. However, Xayah started to lead oversoul out from that as the game went on trying to paint oversoul in the more favourable light before the clinch moment.


Spoiler: Torn Notebook
Setting up the chem/ele/over endgame options
In post 148, Xayah wrote:I feel like when I read into anything Chen/Ele/Oversoul are saying in regards to each other it’s like a clique talking in girl talk about meta I have no idea about. So you guys having reads on them has me ???
In post 558, Xayah wrote:That seems like Ele/Chem/Oversoul from what I can tell. So I blame them~
Starting to distance oversoul from the group.
In post 634, Xayah wrote:Really as long as Chem Ele don't get spared I'm okay with things atm. I guess Oversoul too
In post 837, Xayah wrote:
In post 833, Oversoul wrote:Xayah, why are you now comfortable townreading me when you were not before? If I'm not mistaken, wasn't I a stronger scumread for you?
I thought scum was in you Chem/Ele for some time now. But the day before when Wisdom was going on about how you and Nacho were a team and Nacho made this case. I figured the best way for me to get information was to vore Nacho. If he flipped scum then yay he was scum. If he flipped town than you're probably town. I've always had a hard time reading you. In the dance game I thought you were town when you were scum. So, I'm going to trust in Nacho and hopefully in others. I also feel better about this because it's basically a cop check fmpov. Since I'm confident in Rakan and Ginngie town.

I want to know why people townread Mastina.
I've had a scumread on Chem for most of the game and it hasn't really faded. For Elements some people say he's in his town meta but I just don't get his play. It pings me. So to say I townread you would be wrong. I think you're townier than the options left.


This post was modified from its original form in a use of mod discretion. It is almost certain Elements intended to use pop-open spoiler tags, but even if he didn't I would be interested in taking some kind of action because {spoiler} tags have known issues with mobile viewing and it is important for all slots to maintain equal access to game content.
A totally unaltered form of this post was posted in the mod PT and can be reposted if somehow necessary

Pop-open spoiler tags require some type of title and Elements' BBCode error is not providing one at all, so as an "NAI" title the Undertale item "Torn Notebook" is his pop-open title.
-popsofctown
I also want to point out that what Elements is doing here is preparing for the next day. I think the way he is doing this is interesting because his reasoning for me scum in this post is also good reasoning for him scum since Xayah listed us together.
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Post Post #913 (isolation #94) » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:20 pm

Post by Oversoul »

- this second part of Elements scum case on me doesn't even really make sense, in my opinion. I don't see why Xayah starting to townread me makes me more likely to be scum? If anything Xayah would want to maintain the scum read on me so that she doesn't create any more associative tells. As she is doing right now by not posting.

Looking back through the game, the Chennis night kill makes sense as a scumkill that Elements would make. It has the double effect of killing a fairly townie player as well as getting rid of a dissenter.

I am interested in what Chemist has to say, but at the risk of wifom, he should probably remain quiet. Not that it matters, really. Elements has to kill Mastina at this point because she is confirmed town and strongly scumreading him. I am ready to hammer to end the day, but I will not do so because I have not really been here this day phase due to work and school. I will be here over this weekend if anyone has any thoughts they want to discuss with me.
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Post Post #915 (isolation #95) » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:25 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Um ok. Have to use the hurt tags, but
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Post Post #920 (isolation #96) » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:34 am

Post by Oversoul »

I am around but house work and baby duty. Responses probably won’t be instantaneous.
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Post Post #922 (isolation #97) » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:01 am

Post by Oversoul »

I mainly wanted to address Elements and Mastina’s points. I didn’t hammer Incase you or anyone else wanted to talk more, but I’m getting the impression that people do not. Elements especially when he tried to hammer.
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Post Post #932 (isolation #98) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:44 am

Post by Oversoul »

God I hate LyLo.

HURT: Elements

Chemist, I think it has been made abundantly clear by several players that I am town. I have been playing this game to my town game and more specifically to my town game from the last Undertale Semiopen. I think the biggest point in my favor is the fact that Xayah was put into the spare room to kamikaze. Scum didn’t want me in there to get 3 confirmed town. If I was scum, I would have definitely made sure to hammer myself to get into the spare room and if I couldn’t then I would have strongly urged Xayah to let me be the one to get in because I have a much weaker scum game than she does.

I don’t know why Elements has decided to just phone it in for the last couple of days, but I think it is an admission of defeat considering the corner he got backed into.

If there is anything you want me to address, please let me know. I’m going VLa on Friday (Sword/Shield festivities) so I won’t be able to respond after that
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Post Post #933 (isolation #99) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:28 am

Post by Oversoul »

I guess just one more point I will make in my favor and then let Jesus take the wheel.
As scum I opt for the path of least resistance. I wouldn’t have killed any of the people that died especially Mastina because they either had me as town lean or didn’t scumread me. I think just from start to finish the plays that have been made point to Elements being scum, but I’m not going to bitch and moan to see that I’m town like I did in Baton Pass.
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Post Post #938 (isolation #100) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:25 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 936, Elements wrote:
In post 934, Chemist1422 wrote:What do you think is the biggest point in your favor for you being town (to both of you)
I have said that I scum read xayah since day two.
In comparison Oversoul did not give any reads on xayah until she was confirmed scum.
That’s incorrect. I actually townread her the day we didn’t hammer spare or fight so the day before she became confirmed scum.

Your reasoning for being town is because you were bussing your partner it seems like.
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Post Post #939 (isolation #101) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:27 am

Post by Oversoul »

Is it wifom when there have now been two flipped town players who have said the same exact things about my play? Both Mastina and Nacho are among the upper echelon of players on this site. Both town read me for the reasons I summarized. That isn’t wifom. It’s Occam’s Razor. Now you’re just using buzzwords on me.
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Post Post #942 (isolation #102) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:41 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 940, Elements wrote:
In post 939, Oversoul wrote:Both Mastina and Nacho are among the upper echelon of players on this site.
I bet your feeling really
chuffed
with yourself for having fooled them.
Between this comment and your quidditch comment you’re so British, Elements. :lol: but, no I didn’t fool them. I am painfully transparent as scum. Chemist knows this from that Zaphkael game we played together.
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Post Post #943 (isolation #103) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:42 am

Post by Oversoul »

I’m Whimsalot. It looks like a knight with wings and a bow and arrow
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Post Post #944 (isolation #104) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:45 am

Post by Oversoul »

Literally anyone who has played with me knows how obvious I am scum. The only reason I live longer than day 1 is because I lurk. I haven’t been as active in this game because baton Pass sucked the literal soul from my body, but I haven’t lurked like I do as scum

I am about to head into class and then I have work but like the only thing I can say is that there really is no world where I fool Mastina AND Nacho. I know it seems like a crutch but to not. It’s just Occam’s razor that I’m town
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Post Post #947 (isolation #105) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:59 am

Post by Oversoul »

I’m not the one making a Flavor argument, I was just answering Elements
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Post Post #952 (isolation #106) » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:33 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Case time peeps.
In post 26, Elements wrote:
In post 23, chennisden wrote:
In post 20, Elements wrote:
In post 17, chennisden wrote:
In post 15, Elements wrote:
In post 11, Wisdom wrote:We identify four townies and win. Townhunting is better than scumhunting and this playerlist is good for application
Been there, done that, won as scum. Let's move on and make it hard for the scum to win.
This doesn't sound towny tonally
I doubt my play style will be similar to last time.
I doubt ur town
Is this based on my entrance so far?
First point - Chennis had been
hard
scumreading Elements since early in the game. A lot of the early interactions Elements has with Chennis look like Elements is trying to figure out a way to deal with Chennis. At first, Elements dances around the fact that Chennis scumreading him. When that does not work, Elements proceeds to scumread Chennis because if all else fails tunneling at least looks like effort. You will see that he responds similarly to people who suspect him (namely me and Wisdom). I will note this as the posts come up.

Friendly reminder that Chennis was the first nightkill, by the way. Now normally I find nightkill analysis to be like reading tea leaves, but I think there is something to be said about Chennis dying the first night. It is that Elements knows Chennis can lead a town as he lead the last town
despite being in the spare room within the first 48 hours
. Elements was scum that game and is very aware of Chennis's sway over towns when he is town.
In post 53, Elements wrote:
In post 51, Oversoul wrote:HURT: Elements
HURT: Elements
HURT: Elements
rude
In post 55, Elements wrote:HEAL: oversoul
Here I have made it abundantly clear that I am scumreading Elements. Much like what he did with Chennis, Elements tries to dance around the scumread. In this instance, I think he is trying to placate me by townreading me. This is an uncommon tactic that scum will make to get a townie off their case.
In post 61, Elements wrote:I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.
Elements self admits that he is aware of the differences between his town and scum game. He says multiple times that he is playing differently this game. This is because he is knowingly trying to break the scum meta that he used last game. By saying he is acting differently from his scum game and drawing attention to that fact, he is tricking people into thinking this is town game. But that falls on its face as Elements is clearly aware enough to manipulate his own meta. Plus, he has a small sample size that he can easily maneuver around.
In post 79, Elements wrote:
In post 77, Wisdom wrote:I think youre echoing me.
I think youre echoing me.
Again, like what he did with Chennis, and with me, Elements is dancing around Wisdom's suspicion of him. In this case, playfully repeats what Wisdom said. This type of behavior is to lower the potential for persistent scum reads by trying to make people like him. That is a legitimate tactic as people are just generally less inclined to think poorly of people they like. That is what Elements is trying to do. It didn't work with Chennis so he goes to plan B to tunnel Chennis to look like he is contributing and has a scumread.
In post 88, Elements wrote:Chennis was very much a town leader last game.
As I said earlier, Elements is aware of Chennis's power over town. That strong scum read + Chennis being able to direct towns is why Chennis died the first night.
In post 328, Elements wrote:I think Chennis is scum from how badly he's reading me
More tunneling, see above.
In post 422, Elements wrote:
In post 391, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 44, Elements wrote:
In post 40, chennisden wrote:That was not a towny reaction Elements
as I said, I'm feeling volatile
@Elements:
You later said that you thought that the way that Chennis was pushing you was scummy because he should recognize that you are town, but here it doesn't read like that's the case. When did it shift from "meh" to "ok he's scum he should be townreading me by now"?
Both me and chennis are playing differently to last game. Last game channis started out as a loose flying tentacle trying to grasp onto the ideal way for town to win shooting out stream of thought style posts left right and centre. The flying tentacle bit not being present here is perfectly excusable seeing as he has prior experience with this set up. This time his posts don't seem very stream of conciousy. They seem more calculated especially the constant tunnelling on me.

Its like a kid in front of a pile of sweets:
Town chennis last game - "That one looks good, that one looks good, ooh! that one's rlly good! Maybe avoid that one, looks nasty."
Chennis this game: "Stay away from that one. I know you won't like it. These ones are all meh. Those two are good. Avoid the first one I mentioned."
The first scenario the child is recommending sweets to their friends. The second scenario the child is forcefully telling their friends to stay away from one type of sweet because they want more of it.

TL;DR
Chennis was a wibbly wobbly blob of consciousness last game and is a scheming calculated agenda pusher this game.
Elements further showing the reverence he has for Chennis and his play from last game where town followed his reads despite Chennis being trapped in the spare room for the majority of the game. Elements needed Chennis out of the game as soon as possible because he knows what happens when Chennis scumreads someone - that person dies.
In post 552, Elements wrote:
In post 551, Xayah wrote:HEAL: Xayah
Alright, since that happened I'm gonna put myself into a PT with Rakan easiest way to solve both slots and get some protective solving done.
I don't know if I like you enough yet.
I'f prefer chemist
This is at the beginning of Day 2. I find this interesting because Elements does not say he scumreads Xayah. He says a very milquetoast comment that he prefers Chemist. This is important though because this directly contradicts the claim that Elements made toDay - that he scumread Xayah for the entire game.

There is no way anyone comes away from reading this post that Elements SCUMREADS Xayah. With hindsight, this looks like a fencesitting post on his buddy to keep his options open should Xayah start to gain traction either way - spare or hurt.
In post 635, Elements wrote:HURT: xayah
HEAL: pops
Elements then randomly hurts Xayah before back tracking right away...
In post 636, Elements wrote:Wait that's wrong
HURT: gingie
627 is way tmi
Back tracking from whatever lukewarm "scumread" (I use that term lightly) he had on Xayah. This reeks of distancing.
In post 639, Elements wrote:
In post 638, Chemist1422 wrote:Elements can you make a list like the one I asked Rakan to make please

Because you’re acting somewhat chaotic and I have no idea where your head is at
I do feel like I'm reading this game entirely wrong, but here you go:

Town

Wisdom
Elements
Chemist
Oversoul
nymph
nacho
mastina
xayah
Gingie

Scum
Xayah here is now most definitely in his scumreads, but where is the work to show how he got here? It isn't. Because it is a made up read.
In post 664, Elements wrote:
In post 662, Xayah wrote:Okay, do you think Gin or Rakan are scum?
I'm thinking wisdom/raken could be the team.
But then he back tracks from his scumreads entirely! His reads mean nothing. Elements is the epitome of Words are Wind. He is situationally giving reads on people. He is doing this to be able to join the wagon du jour.
In post 740, Elements wrote:
In post 738, Wisdom wrote:
In post 653, Nachomamma8 wrote:The problem with going for a pacifist ending is that there are no chances to reevaluate and that is very extremely horribly bad for town. No flip games have an obscenely high scum win percentage for that very reason; the chance that we get it 100 percent right on our first try is not great but with the chance to reassess our win % improves
In post 735, Nachomamma8 wrote:HEAL: Oversoul
notice whats wrong here?
you raise a very good point here
HURT: nacho
anything to say nacho?
Another backtrack from his "scumlist". I do not know how he can claim he was scumreading Xayah when he didn't put any pressure on her and immediately goes after others with much more vigor than he ever went after Xayah.
In post 884, Elements wrote:HURT: xayah
Mastina, before xayah was spared who did you think was scum?
Here he is trying to gauge Mastina to see who he can bring to LyLo. Plain and simple. He wants to know who Mastina has suspected throughout the game to see if he can use that information to his advantage.
In post 936, Elements wrote:
In post 934, Chemist1422 wrote:What do you think is the biggest point in your favor for you being town (to both of you)
I have said that I scum read xayah since day two.
In comparison Oversoul did not give any reads on xayah until she was confirmed scum.
As you can see that Xayah "scumread" from Elements is complete and utter bollocks. If he legitimately scumread her, he would not have moved his vote off her right after he placed it on her. He also would actually say he scumreads her other than listing her in a meaningless list.

Elements is grasping at straws to make himself look town. Most visibly he is trying to grasp on this scum read of Xayah when in reality he did not scumread Xayah.
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Post Post #956 (isolation #107) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:58 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 953, Elements wrote:Interesting how you have such an in depth knowledge of why the chennis kill happened. Almost as if you did it. Because you did. That's the point I'm making. Oversoul killed Chennis.
Huh? Everything I said was about you. Chennis wasn’t scumreading me. I had no reason to kill him.
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Post Post #957 (isolation #108) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:03 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 954, Elements wrote:Every game I've played and where I've been set up for a mislynch it has been hard backed by the scum team because of a night kill them made specifically to incriminate me.
How many games have you played where scum killed the people scum reading them to get that voice out of the game?
Now compare that to the number of games where scum make kills based on activity and affinity to set up mislynches.
You were in the last undertale game chem, my kills were in no way based off who scum read me and my partner.
This play oversoul is making is exactly what happened in Newbie Quoteswhere the night kill was made purely to incriminate me.
This is so far fetched. It would be ridiculous to try to incriminate you from day 1. That would mean for 5 days scum Xayah and me have planned for 3P LyLo with you in it specifically. Scum do not do that. They do triage. They kill the most immediate threats. They don’t sit there and try to plan something so many days in advance when games have so many variables that could totally mess up those plans.

As scum I never plan more than a single day in advance. Which is more reasoning that I’m town with how the whole failed spare into Xayah spare took place. If I was scum I just spare myself. It’s really that simple.
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Post Post #958 (isolation #109) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:04 am

Post by Oversoul »

In post 955, Elements wrote:Think about how I've been playing this game. Scum don't flip flop. I've been flip flopping most of the game which has drawn attention to myself. Scum don't want to draw attention to them self, it makes it more likely for them to be caught.
What you have to think bout now chemist is not "who has played the most scummy" but "who has been trying to be more townie". Just by being scum you're more paranoid about appearing scummy so you make an effort to look like town whereas when you're town you know everything comes from a town perspective and make less of an effort to avoid being scummy.
Elements I have been less scummy than you AND playing more townie than you. I just proved that your Xayah scumread that you have had since Day 2 was a lie. You’re clutching at that like a life preserver when you never actually acted on it.
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Post Post #961 (isolation #110) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:57 am

Post by Oversoul »

Even if you don’t believe my case on elements at least believe Mastina and Nacho’s cases on me since they have already flipped town

I don’t know if that would help you but if I was in your situation it would help me
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Post Post #964 (isolation #111) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:07 am

Post by Oversoul »

Wut. What does that mean lol
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Post Post #970 (isolation #112) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:56 am

Post by Oversoul »

How can you accuse me of AtE when you just used the most AtE thing in the game :/

Chemist what makes you think this is a plan? You think I planned to bring exactly you two to LyLo? From day 1? Don’t you see how complicated that gets? X_x I am restraining myself from going full blown AtE like I did in baton Pass but ugh. I’ll just repeat it. I hate LyLo.
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Post Post #973 (isolation #113) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:15 am

Post by Oversoul »

But MariaR did drop her scumread on me yesterday didn’t she?
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Post Post #975 (isolation #114) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:26 am

Post by Oversoul »

I mean the day prior. I asked her about her scumread on me. Driving right now so I can’t go trawling through iso but I thought she said she thought I was town. I thought after our interaction we had come away with townreading one another
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Post Post #977 (isolation #115) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 8:39 am

Post by Oversoul »

I don’t know what I need to say anymore but I’ll answer any questions like I offered earlier
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Post Post #979 (isolation #116) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:27 pm

Post by Oversoul »

I mean I was just bringing that up because that seemed to be the crux of your point about mariar interacting with me.

At that point in time it was looking likely I would be spared. If I’m scum, why wouldn’t we just put me in the spare group if we are just going to kamikaze it? Why flub on the spare and then put mariar into it and then kamikaze it? I know Elements is just gonna say wifom but that is just bad play if I’m scum. I could have easily just hammered myself and been done with it but I wanted to keep thread open in case people wanted to talk.
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Post Post #981 (isolation #117) » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:53 pm

Post by Oversoul »

Dude
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Post Post #989 (isolation #118) » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:52 am

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Nope! Good job Chemist
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Post Post #992 (isolation #119) » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:55 am

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Meta in what way?
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Post Post #993 (isolation #120) » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:55 am

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Between this and Baton Pass, it is sufficient to say that no one knows how to read me.
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Post Post #1018 (isolation #121) » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:24 am

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I feel good enough about my play to say this is a win for me. Fun last scum game on site so I’m glad that everyone had a good outcome. :D
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