Open 769: Venrob's PYP X/Y (Town Wins)

[Something_Smart]

I think Aaron should be dying today so like objectively I agree.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Adorable

To all the people complaining that I'm useless, please stop, I've given more than enough readable content. If there's something you want from me that you aren't getting, let me introduce you to a wonderful thing called asking.

[Something_Smart]

thoughts on ye olde masseclaime tho? bc I think it's like objectively good here

I think it's objectively bad, assuming as a premise that townies are able to crumb relevant actions in a way that makes them clear. If anyone had information that would warrant sharing, they'd share it, or explain that they want people to massclaim certain things (such as whether they visited a certain player overnight). Otherwise, that information only helps scum.

If you're afraid that people won't crumb clearly, I don't think that's something we should play around. I went to town recently on explaining to people how to crumb, I could do it again.

[Something_Smart]

Crumbing is only useful if you can signal to specific players otherwise just say it explicitly.

The point of crumbing isn't to signal, it's to let people figure out what you did after you're dead.

[Something_Smart]

you're just shading for the sake of shading

This seems to be begging the question?

[Something_Smart]

It's possible to crumb a night action without people picking up on it...

[Something_Smart]

Oh I just saw wooper's claim.

Don't get why you claimed that, it's not like anyone would seriously believe Xayah was the scum kill.

[Something_Smart]

you realize that true!claim != town in this setup, right?

I think the point is that he could easily have just used it as a second scum kill and then claimed VT.

[Something_Smart]

if there's a second nk and nobody claims vig the vts are going to be scrutinized

Depends on how many VT's there are I guess.

[Something_Smart]

this is a big big part of why i want massclaim rn

I don't understand why massclaim would help you figure that out at all. Wouldn't you need flips from me, Flubber, and Sirfetchd?

[Something_Smart]

i want instaclaims from flubz, then you, then an ascending massclaim.

I'm aware. How does that help you figure out if Aaron would hypothetically be the highest-drafting scum?

[Something_Smart]

It's not as if I could reasonably lie about my role and get away with it?

[Something_Smart]

i liek explicitly can't talk about that without giving scum tasty tasty breadcrumbs
:<

can't you see what i'm seeing?

Not at all, no. If you think someone has crumbed information that might confirm someone as scum or town, why not let them deal with it?

[Something_Smart]

i'd be more concerned he's fakeclaiming altogether and just isn't an unibackup but all in all balance of probabilities i think his claim is just legit

You think the 5th place drafter whiffed on both of his picks?

[Something_Smart]

other thing is if i was coaching him thru that i would have like nearly always instructed him to say he went for cop first slot, then unibackup with second - max cop utility away from top 1-3 positions is like a Very Towny Draw

idgi, how is that towny. You know redirector is the other side of cop right?

[Something_Smart]

two more mislynches before lylo

don't we have three? there's two more vig slots that presumably haven't shot yet.

[Something_Smart]

i don't know what you mean by whiffed sorry

oh I just mean he didn't get either of his draft picks and thus ended up vanilla, that is the only circumstance under which I could ever imagine him fakeclaiming.

[Something_Smart]

I keep reading wooper's posts thinking they are skitter, I am tired

[Something_Smart]

pretty sure i'm the only other vig in this setup - let me check

There's JOAT, also if a townie took PGO I'm gonna have some words with them postgame.

[Something_Smart]

I still don't see how going for redirector and rolecop in your draft picks looks towny.

[Something_Smart]

In fact it would look sketchy, because if those were his real picks, he as scum would know the cop was above him and that might explain why scum was able to kill the cop N1.

[Something_Smart]

i'm just kinda confused why your content dropped so hard from day1 to day2

Motivation to play dropped, I'll explain it later.

[Something_Smart]

I mean he was certainly shot in part because scum knew he had a role and probably whatever role he wanted.

[Something_Smart]

like day1 you were like ~super townie~
and then day2 your whole posting style utterly changed and getting thoguhts out of you is like pulling teeth

Also for the record, I'm aware of this and I wouldn't have dropped my activity so much if I thought there was a good chance it would get me wagoned or suspected.

I don't really think I've been actively avoiding answering questions posed at me, it's just that not that many people have asked for my opinion which is about normal, and for the most part I haven't been offering it unsolicited.

[Something_Smart]

It was accurate though. I had mostly collapsed the small differences in my reads and hadn't yet sorted them out again.

[Something_Smart]

(Because of the scumflip, of course.)

[Something_Smart]

Still don't see why you want me to claim second. Like I said, it's not as if I could lie about my role group.

[Something_Smart]

How? If anyone put my role as a first choice I'd be instantly outed.

[Something_Smart]

By this logic why does anyone claim first, it's not like they can lie about their role group.

Because scummy people should claim before towny people and also it's a lot easier for low-down players to claim vanilla when they aren't.

[Something_Smart]

And this stance coupled with being against a masjclaim when you are headed for apathy yourself screams that it's your interest to have a stagnated game state.

This gamestate is the opposite of stagnated, and I've had my vote on someone for the entirety of the last two days so I pretty clearly have a direction I would like the game to go.

I don't see how town benefits at all from a massclaim, wooper won't explain it because of some crumb-related bullshit. All I see is scum getting told exactly who to use their PR's on.

[Something_Smart]

You being wrong about whether I'm towny doesn't make me not towny.

And yeah, I never said I wasn't going to participate in massclaim. But if the slots that are high risk of getting away with a fakeclaim are at the bottom of the list... why are they not claiming first?

[Something_Smart]

i think you also realise we're kind of obligated to plynch you if you flatly refuse to participate at all right D:

Never said I would refuse to participate I just still haven't seen a reason why I should go second beyond "you're good at mechanics"

[Something_Smart]

I can't get gold and give you silver, but I can get silver.

Yo dawg, I heard you like going to work...

[Something_Smart]

There. Now I can claim last.

[Something_Smart]

You're not supposed to. It's a crumb that I don't expect anyone to get but that I can explain after the fact to make what I meant very clear.

[Something_Smart]

I went for the 1-shot PGO. My thought was in getting first pick I was going to be a prime target for scum to kill, so if I timed it right I could knock off a scum without sacrificing a more powerful role as an early kill.

Did you come up with this plan before or after you got your alignment?

[Something_Smart]

I knew I was town by then. I think functionally I would have had to?

Before the game you could have decided "if I'm town and I get a high draft, I'm gonna take PGO to screw with scum."

[Something_Smart]

I don't like that you picked a massively inferior option, but at least your explanation wasn't entirely bullshit.

[Something_Smart]

No we're going bottom up with flub and ss going first.

Okay but I crumbed in a way that I can 100% guarantee will be unambiguous once I explain it.

[Something_Smart]

Mm. The intent there was to be able to claim after other people because I can't change my claim now. Do you not agree with that?

In all honesty I don't think it's likely to matter but mechanics are where I'm best and I want to make sure we get the most possible out of them.

[Something_Smart]

Have you crumbed both slots you went for, their order, and the role you eventually took?

Got my first pick, don't really think there's a point in crumbing my second. If I were to fake a second pick as scum, I could say whatever I want with no consequences no matter when I claimed.

[Something_Smart]

S_S could you be more decisive?

About what? I decisively want to claim last because I've already basically committed to a claim.

[Something_Smart]

Also, could it be possible rb targeted Flubs N1 and scum’s kill was blocked again?

Edge cases...

I mean it's just as possible Flubber is actually scum vig who made a second shot N1, and one of them was blocked.

[Something_Smart]

ss i dont' entirely understand why you're opposing massclaim rn

I don't really think the burden of proof is on me. The benefit of massclaim to scum is obvious-- they learn who the PR"s are. The benefit to town is not obvious, and I'm not convinced that there is enough of a benefit, and nobody advocating for massclaim has convinced me of that. This is way earlier than when massclaims are normally done.

[Something_Smart]

@Something_Smart now is safe for at least today because of 766. I think it's the first person that got the reference.

I just remembered this btw. Don't know if anyone cares but if you think I'd let my scumbuddy post this to me and not bus him into the next dimension, you'd be wrong.

[Something_Smart]

Oh, that sucks.

[Something_Smart]

There's at least one strong PR that nobody got.

[Something_Smart]

If he didn't arm, we would.

[Something_Smart]

That's an odd question.

[Something_Smart]

@SS don't care for your shading here dude, I don't trust Kerset so I'm going to get a dialogue going. you can flick back to all of the questions I've gotten to try and gauge mindsets so far. This is one of the less odd ones. What's bugging you about it?

Jeez you don't need to get all prickly, I don't mean any ill will by it

It just seems odd to ask someone with a role that loses 100% of its utility once claimed why they didn't claim it before massclaim, when they weren't under any pressure.

[Something_Smart]

I'm not following you wooper

[Something_Smart]

i think if i'd have checked him last night he'd have showed up with a gun

Actually, no. It's not a normal gunsmith, it only detects killing abilities.

[Something_Smart]

Where was your crumb?

[Something_Smart]

Sorry, was setting up my game I just remembered I had to set up tonight.

I can't get gold and give you silver...

I am not a

Governor...

Spoiler:

but I can get silver.

but I am a

Jack of all Trades.

Spoiler:

...which I annoyingly can't find an image for that will load. Check here if you don't believe me.

N1:

Yo dawg, I heard you like...

cops, so I copped your cop, so you can find out rb is town while you find out rb is town! (Incidentally, this is why I was so salty on D2.)

N2:

going to work...

How do you think I get to work? I

commute

, of course!

In summary: I'm JOAT.
N1 cop rb (town, duh).
N2 commute.

[Something_Smart]

By the way, mafia doctor doesn't show up as having no gun. Again, read the role PM's...

[Something_Smart]

We know he didn't arm N2, at least.

[Something_Smart]

Or if Flubber was the target.

[Something_Smart]

Well, here's the million dollar question then.

Do you think scum would have killed me last night?

[Something_Smart]

What was your motivation for this, SS?

Simple. It's what I would have posted if I hadn't been JOAT, and I saw no reason to change that. I wasn't expecting to get it, actually, because I figured other people would have seen how brokenly overpowered a scum governor would be. My second choice was gunsmith, for the record.

[Something_Smart]

Also, rb was a really poor choice to investigate N1, imo.

Well, obviously in retrospect.

But I didn't think so at the time? He wasn't townread barely at all.

[Something_Smart]

I could have been jailed or doc'd, though.

[Something_Smart]

(From skitter's POV, if she attacked me.)

[Something_Smart]

It's much better to keep town-skitter around another night than it is to keep town-Flubber around another night. And seeing as we'll likely be lynching both of them regardless of what the other flips, we should definitely do Flubber first.

[Something_Smart]

Skitter didn't know I was commuting though. I could have been saved by doc or JK.

In fact if Flubber is town, then I was probably the NK target, which somewhat spews skitter as town because she knew I commuted and why would she gunsmith me and kill me.

[Something_Smart]

That's, uh, really tinfoily.

[Something_Smart]

JK stops only killing actions on the target. Gunsmith would still go through.

[Something_Smart]

I think it's likely Flubber attempted the kill and was blocked. If Flubber flips town then it's likely I was the target and skitter is town.

[Something_Smart]

I don't really think rb was that townread either. Obviously scum were at least partially aiming for PR's there, so I think it makes sense that they might hit me.

[Something_Smart]

There's also a "scum no-killed" option somewhere in there, either for shits and giggles or out of complete apathy.

[Something_Smart]

Btw my second choice was gunsmith, I would never take a purely vig role and I only took this one because it has a lot of good not-vig powers and I really didn't want scum to have it.

[Something_Smart]

Didn't skitter win as scum by clearing a townie recently?

[Something_Smart]

UNVOTE:
Need a VC but intent to vote Flubber, all else being equal I'd like to leave the gunsmith alive another day.

[Something_Smart]

Skitter did you ever explain why you acted suspicious of Aaron or why you said you thought he was vig?

[Something_Smart]

you were softing that day2 and didn't really see a reason not to let you do your thing since we were probably massclaiming today anyways

You didn't want to say something that would lend credence to your claim? Did you not expect people to doubt it?

[Something_Smart]

If Flubber flips scum, I will roleblock Sujimichi.

[Something_Smart]

skitter30 has been lynched. Her role was:

Spoiler:

Neighborizer

wAIT wHAT

Shit I totally forgot about multitasking lol. Guess it really didn't matter until Sirfetchd was dead though.

So I guess you just crossed your fingers that I commuted rather than being healed?

[Something_Smart]

How did you know there was no doc?

[Something_Smart]

Also, if you had claimed (and used) neighborizer over gunsmith, I probably would have shot you at the first available opportunity

[Something_Smart]

Only unclaimed people at that point were me, you, and fetched

Ohh that's the part I was missing.

Guess I should have realized that while I was alive.

Man this setup is quite townsided but that's fixable, and I really like it. It has a ton of mechanical depth. I'm very good with mechanics and even then I made multiple mechanical mistakes.

[Something_Smart]

I'm curious as to how you determine whether something is skewed towards the town or skewed toward the mafia.

A simple metric is to look at how many errors town can make and still win. An error is when town (or scum, acting as a town role) lynches, shoots, or cop checks another townie (it's an error because that's a missed chance to get scum).

We mislynched noms, Flubber, and wooper, and we copped Aaron, Adorable, Kerset, and Suji, and we vigged Xayah, and that's not even counting the two investigative shots that targeted dead people or Sirfetchd preventing skitter from giving a result.

rb and I were PR's and would probably have had to be killed anyway. So in effect, all we had to do to win this game was trust that Luca was town. And that was after wasting two cop shots and two gunsmith shots.

And we didn't even have a doctor. Imagine if one of the VT's had been doctor, how screwed scum would have been.

[Something_Smart]

Yeah, that's why I said "or scum, acting as a town role"-- because she was still pretty much forced into doing that by the mechanics.

[Something_Smart]

The lack of multitasking actually makes the setup REALLY interesting but it is just such a huge blow to scum that a lot of the PR's would have to be neutered.

Probably an easier way to fix it would be to add multitasking and tone down some of the clearing roles. (And also decouple neighborizer and gunsmith because come on that's basically cop and VT).

[Something_Smart]

Also wooper

Read the scum thread and then tell me that massclaim wasn't a bad idea

Like my stubbornness was the only thing that kept town from completely controlling the massclaim and even then it wasn't enough as skitter was able to figure out to claim no result on me.

[Something_Smart]

I think i could have won this with multitasking. A lot of the choices we would have made would have been very different with multitasking

Actually in this specific instance I don't think it would have helped, since all your actions were faked anyway. Since I didn't realize there wasn't multitasking I actually thought your result on me was real, and if you'd gone neighborizer instead of gunsmith we'd never have let you live to LYLO.

But I suppose if I realized you weren't multitasking I'd have probably figured out you tried to kill me so I guess you got lucky in that regard

[Something_Smart]

But then that comes down to more of a scum error/good town play imo. The Gunsmith/neighbourizer bracket probably wasn’t a great scum pick, and scum had time to co-ordinate and discuss their picks pre-game.

Well yeah but if they didn't take it a townie would have, and the result would have been similar.

[Something_Smart]

Also if i were a real gunsmith who actually checked you, i would have gotten a real result, and wouldnf have had to guess.

But you wouldn't have checked me and killed me in the same night

You would have had a different result, but it would have been real, and not a waste of a result like your check on me was.

Also like I said if you tried to play as neighborizer I'd have called you out for essentially passing up a cop.

[Something_Smart]

I healed Aaron. Scum correctly predicted that JK'ing me and killing Aaron would have been a disaster.

[Something_Smart]

Also wooper

Read the scum thread and then tell me that massclaim wasn't a bad idea

Like my stubbornness was the only thing that kept

scum

from completely controlling the massclaim and even then it wasn't enough as skitter was able to figure out to claim no result on me.

EBWOP

Also hi pops

[Something_Smart]

2. Killed cop night 1, who was dying to the PGO anyway.

Wait was he? It's not listed in the night actions.