White Flag - TM2020

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Espeonage

I take Umbreonage with you being alive in this game.

[Cephrir]

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

I just told my team to not give me the open and this is how things turned out

[Cephrir]

When I saw how active FF was being I thought I would have a townread on him by the time I caught up, but I don't!

[Cephrir]

When I saw how active FF was being I thought I would have a townread on him by the time I caught up, but I don't!

I would sort of expect this kind of comment to be accompanied by a vote, is there a reason it's not?

I'm not in that direction either.

I thought he was focusing on some stuff that doesnt matter, but some posts are hitting near the right notes too. Also one of my teammates thinks he's just town!

[Cephrir]

Turkey why are you made of wood this game

[Cephrir]

VOTE: turkey

[Cephrir]

VOTE: turkey

Where is this coming from?

i think your response is a lame excuse

[Cephrir]

I do find it interesting that Cephrir seems to imply he has some sort of meta feel for me when we have played together at the same time in 0 completed games as far as I can remember

I'm no meta warrior, don't worry. But I'd be concerned about this feeling from any player, and I'm more bothered by a response that's kind of irrelevant to the question I asked than any of the behavior itself. I don't see why trying not to post too much would decrease the quality of the posts you *have* made. If anything, shouldn't there be more heart to them?

I don't think this is a huge deal or anything, just a way of getting into the swing of things.

[Cephrir]

Turkey why are you made of wood this game

Yeah explain the basis for this comment

Sure.

Subject: Team Mafia 2020 Announcement

Ok, this is getting scary. I've made about a dozen posts in the last hour or so as I connected the dots and the mods have removed or edited all my posts except the ones that make me sound like a raving conspiracy theorist. The clues are all there, look at page one:

Announcing Team Mafia 2020

This

e

vent will begin on January 2nd, 2020. This gives everyone am

p

le time to get team

s

t

og

e

ther and for those who wish to part

i

cipate to wi

n

d down their current commitments.

Team Mafia is a site

w

ide event sp

a

nning five game

s

. Teams of four players will be given the opportunity to choose four out of the five ga

m

es t

o

be place

d

in, and will wor

k

together to w

i

n their chosen games. Scoring, based on whether or not your team was in winning games, wi

ll

d

e

termine the overall winners of the event. The winning team will receive a banner for their accounts that will be

d

isplayed until the next Team Mafia event or the next Scummies, whichever comes first. The tentative plan for the five games will be

1. A large theme, run by Lizard people
2. A mini theme, run by the Illuminati
3. A mini normal, run by The Masons (fuck masons)
4. A white flag open, run by Lizard people
5. Assassinations of anyone who worked out what we're really up to, run by Micc

Only scum make posts like that

This post had a great opportunity to be funny. It just falls on its face instead.

I didn't I wanted to be in the other open game, but I think I was too heavy handed my own personal blacklist and bob got pushed into it instead
I specifically didn't want this game because it is particularly difficult to win as town

I mean, apparently the random lynch EV is almost 48%. I suspect the team aspect can fix some of the issues that cause towns to do worse in practice.

I might be wrong but I thought the EV and actual win rate were vastly disproportionate and not in town’s favor. But you’re right I should look to see how often Tm towns win white flag rather than just generic white flags.

I'm put off by your use of unnecessary big words, which I'm not aware of being characteristic of you, and focusing on theory out the gate is never my favorite thing

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.

Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?

This post sounds like a robot wrote it.

Why did you ask that question?

I will reveal this once everyone has answered

It's perfectly fine to introduce a discussion point, but why not just explain that at the beginning?
What have you learnt from the responses?

I feel like you want some grand explanation when in reality it’s not that grand at all. Do you think there is scum motivation for asking that question?

I think this line of questioning is lame

[Cephrir]

is elements doing a bit or something? idgi

[Cephrir]

Big words? You mean like particularly, disproportionate, and generic?

More or less
Particularly is a lovely fluffy word that sounds smart and doesn't mean much of anything

[Cephrir]

:shrug:

I'd rather move on and talk about something else at this point

[Cephrir]

My only problem is the amount of defensiveness you've shown gobble, and why you've jumped so quickly to Cephrir making a bad faith read on your slot. I get it if you don't think your posting has been bad at all (which is a purely subjective thing), but do you at least see why Auro/me would interpret your question as empty? Also, do you have any reads beyond Cephrir at this point?

I'm just tired of being the day 1 lynch. It's been like 6 games now and its uber frustrating because I would say I am above 60% for catching scum but it doesn't matter people just do not understand me and kill me.

I honestly do not know what to make of you. I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

first time i've been accused of opportunism for voting on something that was not even a wagon at the time

[Cephrir]

anyway that produced more content than expected, and some of it wasn't terrible

VOTE: dannflor

hi dannflor!

[Cephrir]

maybe! i'm also procrastinating!

so i've played two games with you, and i thought you looked really town when you were scum and were boring and just kind of there when you were town. is this a pattern, or is it just me?

[Cephrir]

fuck, i'm still talking about meta!

[Cephrir]

so i've played two games with you, and i thought you looked really town when you were scum and were boring and just kind of there when you were town. is this a pattern, or is it just me?

It would massively help (given you have the time) if you could retrieve those ISOs and try to nail down what exactly made him come off as towny/boring in his respective games, general reads on him, and establish if that's a recurrent pattern in others.

would it?

for one thing it's entirely reasonable people might play differently in team mafia.

for another, it's 2 games of meta and thus not worth much. hell, infinity games of meta isn't worth much.

furthermore, this game has hardly started and i can't imagine painting a picture of exactly my perception of a player right now to be helpful in catching them. for example, one time i replaced into a game and started walling with strong opinions, someone pointed out my scum meta of walling with strong opinions after a replace in, i changed my posts for the rest of the game to be shorter and wishy washy and took free townreads to the bank

[Cephrir]

I feel those two games were outliers. More often than not—if you'll allow me to brag for a moment—I'm pretty good at obv-towning as town. You can see my recent Micros in Penguin Mafia III and Forest Fire for proof, although I know you're not too much of a meta guy.

That town game in particular is one of my worst town games in recent history and I'm not super proud of it. Overall, I think my scum game is more wooden and static than my town game but asikdfodfjsofijdsferhauihjnrskdf

Let's stop talking about meta

Can you elaborate on where FF is hitting near the right notes for you? Or even why your teammate is town reading FF would be helpful. He's a slot I keep coming back to and can't make up my mind about.

idk how close i'm allowed to stray towards quoting but the basic idea was 'this is just someone who's town and trying to win' and it's probably fair enough to say that sometimes a stick is just a stick

i just reskimmed him and liked it more than i did the first time, and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good

[Cephrir]

aw cmon turkey. let's be friends.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Hopkirk

I just don't get why you had to vote him to talk to him? Dann seems pretty capable of talking without needing to be pressured with a vote. It looked like you were trying to get away from the situation

yes, i did not feel like voting you anymore. is that scummy?

[Cephrir]

VOTE: auro

[Cephrir]

I am traditionally ate but I try to limit it as the turkey

ur an alt?

[Cephrir]

o ok

[Cephrir]

i plan to continue to vote however i feel like and ur welcome to continue complaining about it if that brings you joy

[Cephrir]

i wonder if i'll be able to disentangle kittymo's alignment from generally enjoying her as a poster/person.

[Cephrir]

Do you have any experience playing with auro?

Nope

[Cephrir]

I'm not sure how calling words with a lot of letters "big" now qualifies as a misrep

[Cephrir]

Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

I don't really think this is reasonable. Why isn't dunnstral allowed to have a different read from yours? I'm sure it's not a sinister scum tactic to go look at these meta games and pretend to arrive at a different conclusion.

[Cephrir]

I don't think it's a good reason to suspect someone the way you initially stated it
I'm not sure theres a significant difference between minus points and thinking something is more likely than some other action to be a scum tactic

[Cephrir]

@Auro: I have a light scumread on you and that's it. This doesn't worry me right now because several players are not posting, and it's not unusual for me to take a while to develop reads I feel good about.

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

[Cephrir]

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

I think he means you don't appear to be engaging with people in the spirit of solving the game.

Funny, I can't find that in his post at all. Maybe you're making it up.

Your posts seem to have the following pattern: {Make an attack, generic stance, generic stance, unexplained vote switch}.

I don't think there's anything especially generic about my opinions. It's a fun word to throw at me though! Yes I have switched twice. Wow what a strong pattern I guess this must be the only thing I'll ever do.

Your attacks themselves aren't all that impressive, and I don't see any effort made into

engaging

with players to find out more about them.

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.
Do you disagree?

I haven't engaged gobble? Or dann, if not at length? What universe do you live in?
I don't really do extended 1v1s if I can help it. I don't typically find that to be useful. I also have a tendency to glaze over long posts and stop processing them at some point, and this game has a lot of those.

Of course I disagree. Even if this was the extent of my style (it isn't), styles cannot be scummy. That's why they're called style, not alignment indicative information.

[Cephrir]

I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.

[Cephrir]

I feel like I'm doing it wrong continuing to have short posts!

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion, so im content to roll with that for a bit.

[Cephrir]

This is why people are saying you're ignoring engagement, by the way

Meh.

I don't want to spend pages 1v1ing someone because they think my playstyle is scummy, nor do I want to increase apathy by making everyone else read that.

[Cephrir]

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

I neither have nor need any.

[Cephrir]

Feels like he should have noticed I'd posted as 4 different people there quite visibly. I don't get why he'd go into depth on Gobbles when it also feels like he either didn't iso me, or is acting confused to avoid stuff. This is a question btw Ceph, I'll let you decide which bit is the question.

What makes you think I didnt notice that?

I thought elements had written that post for you.

[Cephrir]

I don't think Ceph followed up, and it felt immediately obvious to me that FF was going to be pretty abrasive personality/playwise from tone and it feels really odd to assume that being like that here was atypical play from him.
@Ceph

I didnt respond because I didnt have any objections- dann is probably right that some of this is just FF being FF, but I still like him for town anyway.

[Cephrir]

I didn't think you were all posting from one account. I thought your teammates were posting in your private topic and you were c/ping them into the thread. I also thought that must be allowed since it was happening. :shrug:

[Cephrir]

probably 112

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir, you mentioned thinking I was towny as scum and scummy as town. Does that mean you think I'm "towny" this game? What are your feelings on me now/have they changed since you were voting me?

I don't think much from you has struck me too strongly either way. I wasnt in love with at least one post about gobbles and myself, but it's not terribly significant. I'm still collecting data.

[Cephrir]

you guys this game is so boring.

[Cephrir]

That's reasonable/explains why you didn't comment on it when going through Gobble. Any reason you didn't comment on it afterwards or is it just something you didn't feel it was worth commenting on? Out of interest more than anything, how did you feel about our team when you thought that's how each of us were going to be posting?

None in particular. I suppose not thinking things are worth commenting on is becoming a trend for me this game.
I just thought you were doing a fun thing to make the game more fun. I don't think doing a bit is alignment indicative on its own, though how it develops could be.

[Cephrir]

@Dann - i didnt bother engaging with ceph because being active is his duty as town. When people keep asking him questions and he responds with one liners and shit like "i dont have to respond" like his post before i voted him i see it as a waste of time on a person who clearly wants the discussion to stagnate, in fact the more we focus on him im certain the more this game will die down. Read his iso, its half one liners and the other half is "game sux" or "i dont have nor need any" which kills activity.

I am active.

I answer questions. I just don't feel the need to engage with your or Auro's attacks on me because they're weak, I don't think there's any point in me wasting my time trying to change your minds (especially considering that Auro is scum) and I believe everyone else can see that.

There is nothing wrong with making short posts. Feel free to object to their content.

What would you propose I say instead when asked to explain a teammate's read when they didn't offer any reasons? I was heading off an expected attack about this lack of reasons when my team is primarily, though not entirely, communicating in gut read form.

[Cephrir]

I could ask my teammates for reasons, but I assume if they had compelling ones they'd have posted them already. I feel backed up by having my opinion affirmed and that's all I was looking for.

There is plenty of game left in which I might choose to do more. When the content starts to interest me, I'll start to engage with it. I tried pushing on people to get some content i could use out of them and it mostly made everyone upset with me. :shrug:

I don't need you to highlight what posts you think are bad. I do not care and I do not think anyone else does either.

[Cephrir]

I'm not really sure why being on the sidelines at the beginning of the game is suddenly controversial. I don't think anything I'm doing here is out of the ordinary, yall just feel more compelled to try hard by the format I guess and I'm just playing mafia

[Cephrir]

Is "everyone else can see that" in reference to finding Auro scummy?

No, just their attacks on me being poor.

I don't feel locked in enough to attempt to case the dude, though if I desperately needed to generate content, that's probably what I'd try to do.

I'm not surprised hito isn't town reading me yet. I can definitely fake everything I've done this game.

[Cephrir]

the way he responds to pressure tends to give me "caught for the wrong reasons" vibes

I very much agree with this. I think I had this thought at some point and never remembered to post it.

[Cephrir]

I'm very concerned about the level of attention nsg is paying to this game, yes.

[Cephrir]

I've played with them both before as well, so what? See above.

So based on their experience with me (which you lack) they don't think I'm the best vote for reasons you allege.

They must be crazy, amirite?

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

Like the longer you go down a "this is my town meta" line without being mod killed the bigger and bigger chance that you are in fact scum by virtue of not being punished.

While you're welcome to feel that referencing town meta points is a trust tell, it's very clear the moderators don't agree with you. No one gets modkilled for talking about their town meta, sorry, that's just not a thing.

Here are some reads from Bella:
Dunn, Kmo, hopkirk, gobble varying degrees of town
She suspects Dann, maybe auro, and especially wgeurts.

I think I should be responding to some of FF's posts. I'll do it later.

[Cephrir]

Ceph im here if you wanna dance in real time?

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

It's an appeal to experience, not authority.

You're saying those people are authorities on you and their opinions therefore are the only ones that count. Six of one, half dozen of another.

Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

[Cephrir]

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Cool, what do you wanna talk about?

Oh, I was supposed to provide the topic? Well, uhhhh we're somewhat aligned on reads so I'm not sure there are any that need hashing out. I guess you could give me some more words on wgeurts town? is it just similarity to your thought process or is there something else? i had no read on that slot and i feel like i should inspect it based on team feedback.

[Cephrir]

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

Let's try to figure where we disagree.

1. Esp said I'm scum for a reason X.
2. A cursory glance at my town games would show X in those games.
3. Dunn also says I do X as town.
4. Therefore, scumreading me for X is not valid.

I believe this is the point of disagreement.
-Dunn is fallible.
-Maybe the way you're doing it this time is subtly different (it can't possibly be exactly the same unless you post the same exact words).
-Maybe Espe thinks the entirety of mafia is situational and personality has no consistency from game to game.

Personally the major reason for my scumread on you is becoming the focus on defense, the "you CAN'T scumread me for X!" mindset that reminds me of scum caught for the wrong reason, and harping on dumb points like this when you could be doing anything else.

[Cephrir]

I've never been good at this but I guess I could try.

Cool, what do you wanna talk about?

Oh, I was supposed to provide the topic? Well, uhhhh we're somewhat aligned on reads so I'm not sure there are any that need hashing out. I guess you could give me some more words on wgeurts town? is it just similarity to your thought process or is there something else? i had no read on that slot and i feel like i should inspect it based on team feedback.

Well, yeah, unless you wanna try to talk me out of the tr i have on you. If you need to sort me still then you would need to figure out how I can help you do that.

Geurt was an initial tr because his posts felt like the could have been written by myself for the most part, its a gut read based off that mind meld. I wish he had kept it up, looking back I see that he hasnt posted in like 5 days, so reading the thread all at once doesnt show that gap. Knowing he gained initial trs from those posts but then completely dropped off the face of the earth makes me wonder if he was scum towning it up for enough cred to coast on or if he is dead irl town.

Yeah uh, warthogs are very untrustworthy tbh.
I don't have a strong read on you personally, even after the longer posts, though I'm not sure exactly how it will clear up. I've certainly had strong townreads on you early before but not every game is the same and everyone varies every time etc. I'm slow sometimes and Ithat doesn't really bother me.

OK, sure. I probably tend to give townreads for the same reason sometimes even though I'm not really sure it's actually valid. I'll just look forward to hearing more from him I guess!

See I told you I was bad at this! realtime interaction should be really helpful, but I just feel put on the spot!

I guess I remember one thing I used to do in fast paced IRC games. What's your favorite season, fishy?

[Cephrir]

i don't actually know how or why i ended up fighting this battle on espe's behalf

[Cephrir]

The meta thing:
1. I claim that *anyone* who has played with me before, or reads my town games, would arrive at the same conclusion.
2. If it's subtly different, then I invite whoever thinks so to go into detail - because that subtle difference is apparently enough to want to have me lynched. Refusing to talk about it is scummy, yeah?
3. This is one thing that's pretty consistent across games.

ok idc

As to focus on defense:
1. Looking at whether/how people re-assess based on defense is a valuable means to gaining reads on them.
2. People will sheep me once I defeat their initial bad premise.

i don't agree with either of these but it's not really important

As to "harping on dumb points":
1. So you agree that that scumread on me is dumb? If it seems like a legitimate reason, then defending against it is good, no?

I mean that you like to get argumentative and try to slam tiny sub-points that don't even matter into the ground to prove you are the Most Logical. And fwiw I also think that's a scum trait.

2. Are you alleging I'm not doing anything else this game? I want you to explicitly say so, if you are.

Not literally nothing else but you're spending more time on it than I feel is warranted.

[Cephrir]

I like fall a lot. There more things for me and my daughter to do and there are holidays that we are starting our own traditions for so its cool.

without giving away the game, this qualifies as a town answer, but the whole game probably works much better in a chatroom

[Cephrir]

I like fall a lot. There more things for me and my daughter to do and there are holidays that we are starting our own traditions for so its cool.

without giving away the game, this qualifies as a town answer, but the whole game probably works much better in a chatroom

I dont understand what you mean, but im not too concerned by it.

i'll explain anyway. this is a technique ive seen used in chat mafia, primarily in kingmaker setups where player x is making a decision alone. x asks every player a seemingly irrelevant question and looks for certain things in their answer.

it probably doesn't work without the pressure of knowing you live or die based on the answer too, huh. oh well, it's fun.

[Cephrir]

As long as the disagreements persists, it's a great idea to talk about it, yeah?

If you've read my posts this game you should already know that I don't agree with this!

[Cephrir]

I'm probably making it sound more mysterious than it deserves

[Cephrir]

Ankamius has not read this game yet but I want her to come in soon and be like BAM BOOM GAMESTATE AURO IS TOWN BOOM

because I feel like the gamestate has stalled a long time with Auro as the most pushed player and top wagon and... what is scum doing if he's scum

Lurking, or being you or dunn

[Cephrir]

My point being half the game is basically not here so that seems premature

[Cephrir]

And I'm town so this game is gonna be way easier than I anticipated woot woot

Did you think your slot was scum?

[Cephrir]

VOTE: nsg

This is ridiculous.

[Cephrir]

Please help me force nsg to play mafia today

[Cephrir]

i'm all for elitism but cliquishness in mafia is pretty annoying and over-reliance on meta is a great flaw for many otherwise good players

[Cephrir]

@mod could you get the replacements in post 0? thank you

[Cephrir]

i'm all for elitism but cliquishness in mafia is pretty annoying and over-reliance on meta is a great flaw for many otherwise good players

Is this responding to something in particular or are you just ranting

641 + 643

Cephrir can I get a reads list from you?

i was thinking of trying to make one that's why i was looking at post 0
here's something quick

Dannflor- townish
BBmolla- townish
Formerfish- townish
CheekyTeeky- scummish purely because my team didn't like your predecessor
Auro- scum, but not as hard locked as i'd like to be
Dunnstral- idk
Kittymo- town
Cephrir- very handsome
northsidegal- scum, i guess
Hopkirk- townish because my team said so
Dongempire- idk, i find this person to be low charisma which makes them a challenging read
gobbledygook- townish
Espeonage- idk

[Cephrir]

CheekyTeeky- scummish purely because my team didn't like your predecessor
Auro- scum, but not as hard locked as i'd like to be
Dunnstral- idk
northsidegal- scum, i guess
Dongempire- idk, i find this person to be low charisma which makes them a challenging read
Espeonage- idk

I've removed all the town reads - you've got a pretty good poe here, not that I agree but surely with such a narrow field you'd feel good about changing those idk reads into something?

I almost lock towned you for being so handsome

Why would I suddenly be able to read people I'm not sure about just because there arent many of them?

[Cephrir]

voting me is a mistake and won't make me play differently.

Disagree.

[Cephrir]

If you are town, you're likely dead tonight anyway. Who else are they gonna shoot, me?

[Cephrir]

Why would I suddenly be able to read people I'm not sure about just because there arent many of them?

Yeah that's not what I'm saying. I meant you should have some motivation to re-look at those players since you're close to a poe.

I don't really do confident POEs, especially halfway through day 1.

I don't think the thing preventing me from having reads on those people is not having tried

[Cephrir]

FWIW, I don't at all agree that the playerlist in this game is relatively weak. All of them are decently mixed imo, and we might have the highest floor.

Also, this game notably is not a miserable slog, which team mafia games often are.

[Cephrir]

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.

I just remembered this post and think it's funny in light of more recent Auro posts.

[Cephrir]

I think you had me as town earlier but now it's 'idk' - what happened?

Did I? I dont remember that.

Also, flipping through my own posts a bit, I'm not sure why i listed turkey as townish and I'd like to take that back.

[Cephrir]

If you think this, why would we lynch her day 1? It doesn't make sense.

I was mostly hoping a serious wagon would force her to help us before this happens.

[Cephrir]

if i'm being totally honest with myself i actually think nsg is more likely scum than any other slot

but i won't lose any sleep over an espe lynch

[Cephrir]

I don't know how you got comfortable doing that with anyone if your strategy for people you don't know is to not talk to them

[Cephrir]

Idk I feel like no one else is frustrated and I don't get it

[Cephrir]

If someone is an IC does that make everything they say gospel? You are acting like town can never be wrong about a read and therefore we should tr you because someone you tr does?

No, but: you should realize that there's at least one reasonable town perspective that thinks Auro is being pro-town, and reassess whether your accusations that he's anti-town carry as much merit as you think it does.

If we all played this way we would no lynch every day

[Cephrir]

With 2 of that team's games in night, I would really like to know what is still so pressing that nsg needs to not play in this game.

[Cephrir]

With 2 of that team's games in night, I would really like to know what is still so pressing that nsg needs to not play in this game.

Cephrir you may be right but can we lynch one of the other two scum today? Who do you think they are?

if i knew, i'd probably vote for them!
as it stands i think i legitimately want to lynch the lurker

[Cephrir]

Okay for real let’s lynch Dong today look at all the fucking resistance I’m facing against a slot almost everyone has as null THATS NOT NORMAL FOLKS

i don't believe in resistance but feel free to try again

im open to being convinced that slot is actually scum and not just a grating personality

[Cephrir]

Okay for real let’s lynch Dong today look at all the fucking resistance I’m facing against a slot almost everyone has as null THATS NOT NORMAL FOLKS

i don't believe in resistance but feel free to try again

im open to being convinced that slot is actually scum and not just a grating personality

What indication do you have that it’s not both?

Could be. I'm just uncertain I've seen anything convincing to that effect. I may have glossed over it or forgotten. I do agree that the first couple posts probably-you picked out were not great

[Cephrir]

I might be kinda ok with that list, except nsg should be in the bottom group.

I'm starting to wonder if espe is town just because his play is really terrible for scum.

[Cephrir]

That post was actually really helpful to me. Thanks. In particular, you've convinced me of most of your top townreads.

[Cephrir]

It's not something I can explain immediately and should become apparent when I finally finish my case.

Yes go ahead and discredit me. Outted scum.

:/

[Cephrir]

That's a pretty severe o overreaction to what looks like a valid question. We can't see a case you haven't posted yet.

[Cephrir]

You could start with sorting the votes that came onto your wagon like a town person about to be lynched would do.

You're really setting the townread I let dann sell me on on fire here my dude.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: gobble

Sure

[Cephrir]

1028 is funny but I think it's clear that Cheeky doesn't believe FF is town and is instead trying to say "if you are town, do this"

I don't think there is a manual of town behavior that requires this

[Cephrir]

You all are making my head spin.

[Cephrir]

ceph who do you want to kill most

Whoever someone persuasive last told me we should kill tbh

I'm having trouble getting into this one

[Cephrir]

VOTE: formerfish

i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum.

The audacity

[Cephrir]

VOTE: nsg

You do not get to coast through this day on reputation. That's unfair to everyone involved. Be town or die. We can solve this game without whatever magical scumhunting powers you supposedly possess.

[Cephrir]

I'm not sure if I want a replacement or I just want to kill it. I'm more offended by the whole thing than I should be.

[Cephrir]

I just refuse to accept that this supposedly legendary town player thinks the right move is to do nothing and hope not to be night killed. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Gtfo.

[Cephrir]

Post or perish like it's 2005 MS, bitches.

[Cephrir]

What's confusing is: if FF and Gob are town, then why did NSG bother voting FF anyway?

A) had to post to avoid replacement and popping in with no vote this close to deadline is garbo trash
B) to make you ask this question

[Cephrir]

I literally think that team decided to blatantly give up on this game and she only posted at all because if replaced she can't play other games anymore.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: nsg

You do not get to coast through this day on reputation. That's unfair to everyone involved. Be town or die. We can solve this game without whatever magical scumhunting powers you supposedly possess.

i'm slightly distressed that the idea that i'm attempting to leverage my "reputation" or "bank on being paragon" is a thing. i've never once brought it up and never would, because i don't think of myself that way. i'm very sorry if that's the image of me that you've gotten, as someone who thinks herself better than others. please trust me when i say that's not the case.

Ok. I still think you're scum until you can show me that you aren't.

[Cephrir]

(And since that is the only scumread I feel good about, it seems like the best lynch to me by a fair margin)

[Cephrir]

I mean he's willing to lynch someone if he's persuaded but as soon as NSG appears he gets a hard on for killing her again. He wanted her to post right? Now he's too offended to hear her out. I don't understand the rush with killing her I'd rather you all lynch Turkey.

I was chilling because I thought we might get a replacement.

I was annoyed that she posted something seeming to indicate she had read the game that was not useful at all.

[Cephrir]

Klick thinks FF is a bad lynch, and as that is the most trustworthy take I have access to and I was on the fence about it anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and not vote there. I will vote nsg or gobble.

[Cephrir]

Klick thinks FF is a bad lynch, and as that is the most trustworthy take I have access to and I was on the fence about it anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and not vote there. I will vote nsg or gobble.

I didn't find any mention of FF during the wagoning where you voted Gobble instead - did you independently think it was a bad lynch when FF was wagoned? What was your read then?

"I was on the fence about it anyway"

I briefly considered whether I wanted to join that wagon and my gut reaction was feeling icky about it, so I didn't.

[Cephrir]

I agree with dunn.

Theres "not being able to answer" and then there's "scumposting with no effort to answer."

[Cephrir]

22 hours

i'm here but that's about all i've got to say

[Cephrir]

If you're town, there must be some discussion about gamesolves for this game, right? While if you're scum there wouldn't. So I want access to them, and paraphrasing is allowed.

I don't think anyone on my team has read any of the other games.

Only Nancy read my game and had the same thoughts so there's nothing much in terms of discussions, but yeah, I'd like to hear whatever FF has to offer.

@FF or is there nothing and you guys haven't discussed at all? That's okay too, except it's the most likely thing that'll convince me not to lynch you.

[Cephrir]

I will be around today if yall decide to flashwagin

I liked bb at the start but yeah I do think a little fire that fades out quickly has a good chance of being scum

[Cephrir]

fine

VOTE: bb

[Cephrir]

I still think nsg is the best lynch but it's fine I guess

[Cephrir]

northsidegal - 5

(Kittymo, Dunnstral, gobbledygook, BBMolla, Dannflor)

BBmolla - 4

(CheekyTeeky, Cephrir, Formerfish, Dongempire)

Formerfish - 2

(northsidegal, Espeonage)

gobbledygook - 1

(Hopkirk)

Not Voting - 1

(Auro)

I think that's accurate.

We have ~8 hours left.

VOTE: nsg

[Cephrir]

Fingers and tusks crossed

If this is scum I expect to die tonight tbh

[Cephrir]

The suspense is killing me

[Cephrir]

not sure how you'd suggest we play mafia if we're just going to throw out associative tells entirely

[Cephrir]

Math says he thinks it’s Ceph, Cheeky, NSG

That checks out with how good math is at mafia

[Cephrir]

Combo breaker

[Cephrir]

I think I'm wrong somewhere in my town reads though and it's probably in the [hop, kittymo, cephrir] grouping

cheeky, Dunn, ceph still core town

Kitty too

What's with this?

I was just looking back now at how some of the end of day stuff went down. My initial response to Dann's trajectory (just the one I happened to look at first) is... town???? Avoiding nsg consistently only to flip there in th 11th hour seems like a strange bus.

[Cephrir]

Eh, maybe that's a bad take.

[Cephrir]

I think I'm wrong somewhere in my town reads though and it's probably in the [hop, kittymo, cephrir] grouping

cheeky, Dunn, ceph still core town

Kitty too

What's with this?

I was just looking back now at how some of the end of day stuff went down. My initial response to Dann's trajectory (just the one I happened to look at first) is... town???? Avoiding nsg consistently only to flip there in th 11th hour seems like a strange bus.

After thinking about this in the shower I totally disagree with myself. Anyone could see bbmolla's posts were likely to get him out of the noose.

[Cephrir]

FF is probably town.

VOTE: formerfish

i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum.

The way nsg pops in here, puts down the vote, and then ducks out doesn't strike me as likely to be SvS. Especially the wording of this post, "i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum," she's careful to not even express a scum read on FF. It would be a very strange bus if it was one.

I thought of this, but on the other hand, throwing down some distancing with a post that was fairly likely to get her lynched may not be bad play.

[Cephrir]

Yeah formers scum.

I have never believed his posts were anything outstanding, but thats not the smoking gun for me. The last 3 posts he made seem like its coming from frustrated scum that got caught due to luck, and his desperation to switch to a NSG wagon shows that also.

Gobble wagon seems rushed. I think people caved in too early to formers offensive.

I especially didnt like that nsg was MIA and yet former still said she was making it a 1v1, shes not even here

I will also say that i dont like how cheeky attacked dunn out of thin air - it seems like it was meant as a way to lull the nonattentive to thinking dunn was doing something malicious against her when he wasnt. As far as i see its not like she scumreads him either so wtf?

Sorry FF if you're town, but I'd rather take NSG later into the game than you as it stands.

I'd hang him just for this comment.

Thanks for letting me know that a fucking empty space is better than having me around Dann.

With all due respect, i think its more than that.

What you're doing at this point is pretty much whataboutism and is bordering on desperation to get ANYONE lynched except yourself. No one said we cant lynch you today and nsg tomorrowz which is my preferred gamestate as of now.
You havent given reasons for yourself or against nsg, so all of your posts help no one. Thats the bigger reason.

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

Nsg/cheeky/maybe hop

Thats where my mind is at. I dont think i will be considering anyone else to lynch tomorrow but i do want to make a case on esp come tomorrow.

I like these wagons what course should I be taking?

Former seems like its a done deal at this pointz i doubt trying to flip everyone on nsg at the last moment will work, and im pretty sure on former (im also convinced on nsg but in a decision of one or the other...)

I like these wagons what course should I be taking?

Former seems like its a done deal at this pointz i doubt trying to flip everyone on nsg at the last moment will work, and im pretty sure on former (im also convinced on nsg but in a decision of one or the other...)

This is a pretty lazy excuse, your vote on nsg would put her to l-1, while your vote on FF ties the wagons at l-2, so "flipping everyone" isn't something that needs to happen if you wanted to

I'll be willing to flip on nsg if formers wagon stops traction, but its not because i scumread nsg over him but rather to just get a lynch in. I'm still in full support of a former hanging.

Sure, tomorrow we can have a better discussion.

VOTE: BB
L1 i think

NSGs not here to flood an entire page with insults, guess thats who were lynching today then

Thats the worst compromise for me but sure..

VOTE: NSG

I am positive these posts are alignment indicative. Yall should read them.

Prima facia it looks super super bad but maybe too bad to be scum.

[Cephrir]

I think auro is likely town. He spent so much energy on trying to get ff to paraphrase his team topic, something which if done and done well could have completely blown up the ff wagon.

[Cephrir]

Dongempire says his preferred gamestate is lynching FF first and NSG tomorrow

Want to add here: I thought it was strange that he said this and then also said he wanted to case espe tomorrow

[Cephrir]

Wow. This game went down the drain quickly.
Guess I came back too late.
Glgl.

Think cheeky makes this post as scum roughly never

[Cephrir]

Dann you were happy lynching anyone.
Dunn why didn't you hop on BB?

And this one double never

[Cephrir]

Skimming the last two pages I like BBmolla for town too, but I don't remember him from the early game at all.

This statement in particular seems to come from a town viewpoint.

I'm not at all sold on a Gobble lynch.

FF, your team was giving you inputs: can you specify what exactly?

Why is it implausible disengaged scum Gobble would forgetfully post this?

I didn't like gobble's vote there, though.

Is there something in the progression of his vote that you don't like or is it more bad news bears because you think he's scummy in general? I'm very unsure on gobble right now because there's sort of a black hole in progressions for how he got to his original big read wall. WATCHING ACTIVITY LEVELS was bizarrely political phrasing for the absence. Now he uhhh, apparently likes everyone he used to dislike more besides Dongempire. I thought him liking FF for the burden of proof thing was random because it seemed like one of the more nai things in FF iso to me, but the overall progression on the read doesn't come off implausibly to me on face.

It felt like they turned on FF as soon as they could and that their read there was fake

I'm honestly wondering if Gobble's team told him to act a certain way around me or what. It's like, half of his posts seem really scummy and then when he comes back he sounds reasonable

Right now he is doing the reasonable part

NSG is openly scumclaiming

She said her team thought gobble was scum and then said FF is the only wagon she can see flipping scum

And then she won't answer to numerous inquiries about what is going on

Plus her play when she comes back is pretty blatantly scum

I think it's pretty obvious that FF is frustrated town with his recent posting but nobody else seems to agree with that

I'm not going to be able to explain it beyond saying that the frustration feels genuine and the stubbornness when being lynched is a town trait

Sigh. If you had just stopped being stubborn and worked with me as town I think it's unlikely things would have ended up this way.

How certain are you that FF is scum?

I think NSG is scum, but not FF. All I see is you voting for FF over NSG

Your wagon resistance thing doesn't make any sense - the vast majority of players are town

I really doubt we'll have enough time to to switch to BBmolla

I think I like Dong and Espe for town a liiittle bit more than previously

I'm going to make this the fucking fun game or die trying

which aggression is over the top/ungenuine?

I'd rather do that than get to LYLO and have NSG not fucking posted all game because "sorry guys other games required attention."

As well as overly aggressive (why you mad bro) why can't we see if she posts tomorrow? It's not like we have to lynch her today for how she could possibly play in the future, that seems unfair right?

Like you could continue to be lurky but it wouldn't make sense for us to lynch you based on what you could do.

okay but what if we don't lynch her today and she's not playing in the future but there's obvious fucking scum that we can't lynch because she's continuing to lurk

lurkers are fucking poison to a mafia game

and if you think that's me being aggressive you haven't played with me enough

Dong is pretty blatant scum imo

I'll vote NSG when I know I'm not hammering, not gonna put up with that shit, we're not your fucking sidepiece game NSG, play or die

I feel like this game is fairly obvious for the most part? Lot's of pretty readable people in this game.

Although Espy iirc is really fucking hard to read for me, pretty sure I've lost to Espy scum multiple times

I don't think your early sentiments match your current actions, and you're pretty much coasting/doing nothing while these wagons go through, except you popped in to shut down Gobble wagon

Dunnstral is town

[Cephrir]

To expand slightly

Because we already discussed scum turbobus strats for white flag in this game I really dont think scum would look to turbobus in this game, at least until maybe late game when theres only 2 of them

[Cephrir]

I'm maybe a little less into destroying espe than the thread currently is

[Cephrir]

Finished reading and ready to VOTE: Dongempire

I feel theres a good chance dann is scum but I can chill on that for a bit and see what happens. Even if he is it would probably be easier to lynch his partner

[Cephrir]

To expand slightly

Because we already discussed scum turbobus strats for white flag in this game I really dont think scum would look to turbobus in this game, at least until maybe late game when theres only 2 of them

1 scum wins the game

What? It literally doesn't

[Cephrir]

Good idea auro, you shouldnt agree with me because it could cause a paradox rift in spacetime

[Cephrir]

To expand slightly

Because we already discussed scum turbobus strats for white flag in this game I really dont think scum would look to turbobus in this game, at least until maybe late game when theres only 2 of them

1 scum wins the game

What? It literally doesn't

VOTE: Cephrir

You either didnt read your role pm or you're scum. This is such a stupid post to make

Ok lol

[Cephrir]

There's a change in his trajectory towards NSG without any *new* information, I can elaborate more on this in the morning

Pls do

[Cephrir]

I'm a terrible vote lmao

I spent all day coming back to nsg repeatedly and I doubt she gets lynched otherwise

[Cephrir]

Not to mention what an awful nightkill kittymo is for me

[Cephrir]

I will be around today if yall decide to flashwagin

I liked bb at the start but yeah I do think a little fire that fades out quickly has a good chance of being scum

fine

VOTE: bb

I still think nsg is the best lynch but it's fine I guess

northsidegal - 5

(Kittymo, Dunnstral, gobbledygook, BBMolla, Dannflor)

BBmolla - 4

(CheekyTeeky, Cephrir, Formerfish, Dongempire)

Formerfish - 2

(northsidegal, Espeonage)

gobbledygook - 1

(Hopkirk)

Not Voting - 1

(Auro)

I think that's accurate.

We have ~8 hours left.

VOTE: nsg

These tell a pretty clear story

I didn't think I could get her, then switched back when it was pointed put she had more votes than I realized

[Cephrir]

I can kinda dig that actually.

VOTE: Hopkirk

[Cephrir]

Ask Ducky if I am ever going to believe a meta argument?

Isnt this meta though

[Cephrir]

I mean you're arguing it's not a valid reason to scumread you, which... is exactly what auro was arguing day 1?

Not that this is important or anything.

[Cephrir]

I will be around today if yall decide to flashwagin

I liked bb at the start but yeah I do think a little fire that fades out quickly has a good chance of being scum

fine

VOTE: bb

I still think nsg is the best lynch but it's fine I guess

northsidegal - 5

(Kittymo, Dunnstral, gobbledygook, BBMolla, Dannflor)

BBmolla - 4

(CheekyTeeky, Cephrir, Formerfish, Dongempire)

Formerfish - 2

(northsidegal, Espeonage)

gobbledygook - 1

(Hopkirk)

Not Voting - 1

(Auro)

I think that's accurate.

We have ~8 hours left.

VOTE: nsg

These tell a pretty clear story

I didn't think I could get her, then switched back when it was pointed put she had more votes than I realized

And this makes you town... how?

If you were planning to bus NSG so that you could point this out later then this makes perfect sense as scumceph. What reason is there to point this out

bbmolla asked why i voted him. i was answering his question.

[Cephrir]

i am having a hard time figuring out what espe or dong are trying to accomplish today if they're scum. are they just giving up?

[Cephrir]

that's exactly what i'm saying though

trying to lynch someone (cheeky) right now who is very clearly absolutely not getting lynched doesn't seem like a strong play for scum

[Cephrir]

idk, don't do wifom kids, it'll fuck you up

[Cephrir]

i kinda think espe and dong are both mislynches but i couldn't give a very good reason why
i guess we have room to mess up tho

[Cephrir]

i kinda think espe and dong are both mislynches but i couldn't give a very good reason why
i guess we have room to mess up tho

If that’s true, who do you think is pushing for those mislynches?

hopkirk's partner >_>

[Cephrir]

Zzz.

[Cephrir]

Why are we not lynching hopkirk thoigh I am a bit confused on tgat

:shrug:

I'm still voting there.

[Cephrir]

Several little thoughts.

If Espe were scum, would he have posted his non-game frustration in the scum thread?
If Espe were scum, does he respond to a L-1 wagon with a single super chill post and then take a little time to actually do things?

[Cephrir]

Do you have other reasons to town read him?

Not that will do anything for you. I just don't feel it.

[Cephrir]

what if we lynched hopkirk now and then the game was over

[Cephrir]

whatever

VOTE: espe

i think the chances of this flipping scum are approximately equal to random

[Cephrir]

I told him, I cant bring that horse to water though, you know

[Cephrir]

I would lynch gobble today.

[Cephrir]

I mean lynch me so I can shit on you guy in the dead thread

What did we do to offend you so?

[Cephrir]

VOTE: gobble

[Cephrir]

I feel like nsg wouldn't have happened without gobble though

Yeah she wouldn't have happened if both her teammates didn't bus her.

boring take

[Cephrir]

Yeah so why do scum remove a player people were still paranoid about?

No one but you was worried about him

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Hopkirk

[Cephrir]

Apparently Auro was paranoid too, but be direct Cephrir. What does that mean for your read on me?

Nothing. I just don't think there's any reason to go paranoia spiraling over the most widely townread player in the game being nightkilled.

[Cephrir]

@Dann, Ceph: What plausible partners would scum Hop have?

I honestly havent thought about this at all and I dont plan to.

Theres so much wifom in the setup that I kind of dont care.

[Cephrir]

Then why not Gobble?

He's fine too. I certainly preferred him to lynching Espeonage, but we did that anyway for some reason.

Cephrir who are your next 3 lynches?

I don't think this is a good question. Each day produces more info which I will use to reevaluate.

[Cephrir]

Ceph, the question implies the information of each successive lynch flipping town. I think the answer to that question is important in other ways, but I can't go into them right now.

Idk man. This isn't chess. I'm not thinking 4 moves ahead.

I don't think this is a good question. Each day produces more info which I will use to reevaluate.

What new info do you have now?

-The formation of the espe wagon (which i have not examined yet)
-Dunnstral is now confirmed town

[Cephrir]

Cephrir what changed your mind on gobbles?

Did I change my mind? I've never really not scumread him, if not terribly strongly.

I know I'm disengaged with this game. I wish I felt more confident about my reads. Maybe I should, since I haven't been wrong yet.

[Cephrir]

They're both super obvious nightkills.

I like NK spec but it seems pretty open and shut here. The only concern is that it may mean scum were fine with the status quo. (Or that they were doing so bad they had no outs.)

[Cephrir]

What do you think about Dann, Cephrir?

He's probably town.

[Cephrir]

I like NK spec but it seems pretty open and shut here.

Yeah you have a point on Kitty but I still disagree on Dunn as I think there were harder to lynch slots who weren't scumread at all.

I can't think of anyone who is both of those things.

[Cephrir]

What do your reads look like Cephrir?

They havent changed in a while because I am not invested.

Town

Cheeky
Dann
Auro
BB
Dong???
FF
Turkey
Hopkirk

Untown

I'm doing a really bad job of caring about flips and recent info and, well, the game

[Cephrir]

I like NK spec but it seems pretty open and shut here.

Yeah you have a point on Kitty but I still disagree on Dunn as I think there were harder to lynch slots who weren't scumread at all.

I can't think of anyone who is both of those things.

Do you not qualify as someone hard to lynch who noone was scumreading? Do you think Dann is easy to lynch?

I think I might be possible to lynch eventually despite being a universal townread because I am not doing anything.

I think Dann is scumread by several people, especially prior to today.

[Cephrir]

Also I don't think scum are going to be afraid of the total lack of scumhunting I am currently doing.

[Cephrir]

Also I don't think scum are going to be afraid of the total lack of scumhunting I am currently doing.

Why are you playing this way? Can you please try, it's making it really hard when a few of you just dgaf.

I'm sorry >:

Maybe I'll be able to try at some point. Usually in games I don't care about there's at least some stuff I can be snarky about until something interesting happens but this one is just so dreadfully boring.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Turkey

[Cephrir]

I'll just warn you now that I'm not going to care about vca and probably will not read any posts about it because they just make me angry

[Cephrir]

Or I guess I could snark about it for a couple pages to get engaged

[Cephrir]

Yeah if dann is scum he can just win for that, I'm good.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Hopkirk, again

[Cephrir]

Dong prob town

This has been your daily warthog

[Cephrir]

Dong prob town

This has been your daily warthog

Who is Hops partner

Don't know don't care c:

[Cephrir]

this was an okay game of mafia, which is better than they usually turn out

[Cephrir]

^me obviously