White Flag - TM2020

[Dannflor]

VOTE: wgeurts

I chose this game because I prefer mountainous setups, or at least setups that are as close to vanilla as possible. Especially if I'm going to be try-harding for an event like Team Mafia, I'd like the game itself to be as simple as possible so all I really have to focus on are the fundamentals of the game.

Why did you ask that question?

[Dannflor]

hi nsg im excited to finally play a game with you

big fan

[Dannflor]

I think Team Mafia in general is town sided because of the higher presence of experienced players compared to a normal game on the site + the team aspect. Thinking about the game like that is an easy way to get complacent though so like, whatever. Regardless this game isn't one you can really blame on the setup no matter how it swings.

[Dannflor]

Why’d you choose to vote me, FF?

[Dannflor]

I voted for wgeurts because I liked KittyMo’s entrance and wanted to build a wagon, and wagons good blah blah blah

[Dannflor]

I feel like my scum game is overrated

but that’s just me

[Dannflor]

It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.

I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).

[Dannflor]

Eh, I don’t read her stressing about read accuracy as subconscious scum paranoia. The investigative PR name drop just seems coincidental.

I liked how instead of just answering the free question she turned it back around on rooster boi too.

[Dannflor]

When I saw how active FF was being I thought I would have a townread on him by the time I caught up, but I don't!

I would sort of expect this kind of comment to be accompanied by a vote, is there a reason it's not?

[Dannflor]

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

That's why I asked gobble why he asked it. I'm skeptical but I'll be polite and wait for him to give his explanation.

[Dannflor]

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

Well it speaks to the type of person you are generally which is what I want to explore. It is helpful for me to know what type of people I am dealing with since I haven’t played with many of you.

Do you think it is a bad idea to try and introduce discussion into the game?

Why was this something you felt the need to wait to reveal?

I don’t think your question is necessarily scum motivated but RQS can be an easy thing for scum to hide behind in order to look like they’re doing something. “Discussion” or any type is not always a net positive and your question to Auro feels a little leading? Do you see why people might be so suspicious of what could be viewed as an empty question?

Also Dongempire, is your vote serious?

[Dannflor]

I am leaning towards that you're both town. I see what Cephrir is saying about gobble having wooden posting. It's not an insult, in fact I usually have that quality too when I'm try harding in RVS early as town.

But regardless of how effective gobble's question is to generating AI discussion, I think he seems pretty earnest about it?

My only problem is the amount of defensiveness you've shown gobble, and why you've jumped so quickly to Cephrir making a bad faith read on your slot. I get it if you don't think your posting has been bad at all (which is a purely subjective thing), but do you at least see why Auro/me would interpret your question as empty? Also, do you have any reads beyond Cephrir at this point?

[Dannflor]

Oh duck warned me to keep an eye on him because of his entrance but I like Auro so far too

Also is Hopkirk a hydra or just one person doing a bit? A hydra isn't allowed, right?

[Dannflor]

I honestly do not know what to make of you. I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

Me being skeptical about your methods wasn't me being skeptical about your alignment. I'm town reading you, mostly off tone so it's a very not-strong™ read but something I'm willing to stick with for now. I mainly asked because I was wondering if your questioning produced any readable content for you beyond Cephrir.

I like both that Cephrir went to the effort to case the wooden tone he took issue with and then also didn't want to drag out the discussion needlessly. A lot of the time scum relishes in pointless arguing.

[Dannflor]

hello Ceph

wanna talk?

[Dannflor]

I feel those two games were outliers. More often than not—if you'll allow me to brag for a moment—I'm pretty good at obv-towning as town. You can see my recent Micros in Penguin Mafia III and Forest Fire for proof, although I know you're not too much of a meta guy.

That town game in particular is one of my worst town games in recent history and I'm not super proud of it. Overall, I think my scum game is more wooden and static than my town game but asikdfodfjsofijdsferhauihjnrskdf

Let's stop talking about meta

Can you elaborate on where FF is hitting near the right notes for you? Or even why your teammate is town reading FF would be helpful. He's a slot I keep coming back to and can't make up my mind about.

[Dannflor]

for example, now I know to get town read by Cephrir I just have to be useless and boring

[Dannflor]

and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good

I'm trying not to let this specifically influence my read because I think this is just who FF is as a person

but I think I'm finally vibing with a town read

I don't have any scum reads yet but I guess I can live with that

[Dannflor]

Dann, can you ask the worst about what exactly pinged him from my entrance?
I almost always tend to wagon in RVS.

Sleeping now, will give thoughts on other stuff tomorrow.

It was the post just after the wagon. It felt a bit overly apologetic or preemptively defensive to him, and he thinks that attitude can fit your scum meta. Wasn't enough to form a read off of he just warned me to keep an eye on you.

Hopkirk, why the Kittymo vote?

[Dannflor]

You want me to explain or you want to sheep?

I want you to explain, I'm town reading her.

[Dannflor]

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you?

Think you may have misread my post or the context?

Can you elaborate on why you don't like Auro? Also, specifically what about Cephrir vs. Gobble feels TvT to you? Mostly interested in those two answers when you're feeling less tired. I've reached sort of the same conclusion regarding Cephrir and Gobble but I'm not very confident both those reads are right yet.

[Dannflor]

Dannflor asked gobble twice something along the lines of whether gobble gets why people might be concerned he's asking an empty question. Ironically, I think concerns that someone initiating RQS is scum "hiding behind" it has been overblown every single time I have ever seem an RQS. It's of course good to know why gobble asked the question, but I ironically think overly nitpicking RQS is an easy thing for scum to do to look like they're doing something. In turn, I have a small amount of beef with Auro in particular for opening with the assumption that it will yield nothing useful, and also with Dannflor for seeming to try to overly emphasize it's only reasonable to be suspicious of gobble. I do, however, appreciate Dann's analysis that the wooden tone from gobble fits with tryhard town, which is evidence Dann is trying to get a real read from this.

My point in asking that question to Gobble was to determine whether his rather OMGUS push on Cephrir and suspicion of Auro came from an incredulous town place or awkward scum. Based off tone, I feel like gobble is town who has come in and made some awkward posts/flubs that they're having trouble recovering from. The problem is, I don't have solid reasoning for why they aren't just scum instead—besides gut—soooooo very not confident read. Except for the fact that I think it's just not that easy.

I don't know. I'm waiting on him to respond to Dunnstrall's walls hopefully with a bit of a cooler head.

Overall, I think he's been a bit too careless/hyperactive to be scum here. Like I see the points others are making about his tone being more defensive here, but my gut is saying frustrated town.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Formerfish

FF, are you like legit scum reading me at this point or still on the fence? If the latter, do you have any questions about my posts/play so far that I can address and get you moving in a more concrete direction? I'd expect you to be going after me a little more here in either case.

Also, I think you're overstating the amount of content you've contributed. You've got some mechanical talk and some needlessly aggressive one liners but not too much else beyond the bluster. I did like when you engaged with me briefly! But that didn't really end up going anywhere. So where is your head at now? Like reads wise.

I read stuff like #151 and #153 and can't tell if you're just blustering to bluster or if you are finding Gobble legitimately scummy.

I'm not asking for a structured reads list necessarily I just want to know what your strongest gut feels or reads are that you've picked up so far.

[Dannflor]

I think Hopkirk is actually my strongest town read and that's been backed up by my team.

[Dannflor]

Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?

[Dannflor]

Sure, you can consider it as such. What do you make of it?
I

I was curious because I had mixed feelings on FF at the time, still do tbh. And I wanted to know if you scum read him, what the reasons for that were.

Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?

I've quoted a few, but it's hard to provide concrete examples of something that's missing.
Do you not get the same impression looking at his engagements with other slots - that he's not making an attempt to sort them through the engagements?

Honestly? I remember liking the brief interaction I had with him, but looking back it's a lot more lacking than I though.

@Cephrir, you mentioned thinking I was towny as scum and scummy as town. Does that mean you think I'm "towny" this game? What are your feelings on me now/have they changed since you were voting me?

I could respond to those posts, but it strikes me as deeply pointless.

also unrelated and I know Cephrir is a strong scum player, but I sort of have a hard time seeing a post like this coming from scum in his position

@Auro, can you explain you hop from Ceph to Dong and back again? Specifically, what's your read on Dong right now and how scummy do you find him compared to Ceph?

[Dannflor]

It was more post #10 than her opening opening that I liked. Just a gut “hey that feels genuine” ping but gotta go off something.

I thought people might interpret that as me trying to pocket nsg or something but really I’m just a fanboy. Also don’t think that post realistically does anything to “gain favor” with a player of her caliber (oops I’m doing it again).

Why are you mulling over people pocketing you? That's not usually something that comes to mind as town this early game when most of the content is without weight.

I was tired and wrote this the wrong way round. Why are you mulling over others thinking they'd think you're pocketing someone else? As town behaviour it's a bit odd but as scum behaviour it would be paranoia. Particularly early game who really thinks someone else is going to be actively pocketing?

I care too much about what people think of me. That's a character flaw, not alignment indicative.

[Dannflor]

my current working townblock is {dunn, kittymo, wgeurts}

I see the other two but why wgeurts

[Dannflor]

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

I neither have nor need any.

like yeah you can read this as "scum afraid to engage," but it's really not hard for scum to engage and just bullshit towny stuff

I don't think this makes Ceph town alone but it's not a reason to scum read him

[Dannflor]

And I really don't like that vote on Cephrir immediately after from Dongempire

VOTE: Dongempire

[Dannflor]

It reads like scum who sees something town does that looks really scummy on a surface level and thinks it's a safe vote, when in actuality if they were town they would've taken more time to consider why scum!Cephrir would behave this way

also Dongempire I'm not really seeing your scum read on Cephrir here, like why it exists beyond "his posts are bad"

he's one person posting one-liners in a sea of walls, but I'm not sure that's inherently scummy?

[Dannflor]

Why's that? I don't remembering playing with any of your team (anytime recently if at all) so I'm assuming not meta?

eddie cane said you were town

I trust his reads a lot

Also, even though I disagreed with it, I thought your explanation for the scum read on kittymo was especially towny. I thought it showed a level of looking deeper when it's a lot easier to just give her a free town read for having pleasant posts.

[Dannflor]

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

I just like a friendly guy yknow

[Dannflor]

I feel like your level of engagement with Cephrir has been a lot more thorough than Dong's, and from what I gather I think your scum read goes deeper than just vague statements about his posting. I still disagree with your read overall but I think the way you've approached it is a lot townier than the way he has.

To clarify, you're town reading Dongempire now?

[Dannflor]

can I get an expansion on scum!auro?

[Dannflor]

@espeonage

[Dannflor]

Espeonage can be town

FF I look forward to your catch up

wow me pls

[Dannflor]

I've never played with him before, should it be a lot higher?

at this point I'm just trying to throw stuff out there and see what sticks and what doesn't because this game needs

something

to kick start it

[Dannflor]

Duunstral, where are your not gobbledygook reads at? Unfortunately I don't really get much from your cases on him

[Dannflor]

Holy shit these vote counts suck what the fuck

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Cephrir

[Dannflor]

If you've never played with them before, why do you think they are town?

Unsure what this question is supposed to mean? Am I not supposed to form reads on people I've never played with before?

Low effort + unjustified townreads don't "kickstart" games, and usually people aren't trying to "see what sticks" with townreads, seems more like you're just saying words and tmi reading people as town.

Usually games are not like this one. We're 12 pages in and half my strongest reads are still only based off gut pings and vague reasoning. Maybe I'm just bad!

[Dannflor]

Eddie Cane would like it to be publicly stated that his two most confident reads are Auro and Hopkirk as town.

I agree for the most part. Definitely on Hopkirk, somewhat less confident but still town reading Auro.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gobble

[Dannflor]

@Dann, somehow I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my being the "most confident" town read. Does tw concur?

the worst also concurs! Although he has not read the entire game I don't think and has no other reads besides you

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Formerfish

coherent words will have to come tomorrow

[Dannflor]

hello I am ready to rumble

[Dannflor]

okay actually I'm ready to rumble in an hour after I eat

[Dannflor]

I'm kind of here now. My inclination is to spend time on my own catching up and replying to the big wall posts from last page and a couple pages ago, but since there are people online I suppose I should interact with y'all. Is there anything specific anyone wants me to address in real time right now?

Are we all talking about Auro right now

[Dannflor]

I don't remember wgeurts doing much of anything, what is there to talk about

[Dannflor]

I see. I didn't like picking at Auro for that especially given that I (and seemingly many others put in this game) don't have the most time in the world. That doesn't mean we still can't give it our all. It's scummy in that it's a very non-game related way to push someone but I need to see more from that slot in general.

Is there anything specific anyone wants me to address in real time right now?

Yup, your Esp read!

His entrance gut town pinged me. Specifically #265 and #282.. I have no meta with him I just liked those posts as a way to immediately get into the game and start pushing on a deeper level. There's no long useless catch-up which I've seen a little bit of this game.

[Dannflor]

I see. I didn't like picking at Auro for that especially given that I (and seemingly many others put in this game) don't have the most time in the world. That doesn't mean we still can't give it our all. It's scummy in that it's a very non-game related way to push someone but I need to see more from that slot in general.

Also one of the reasons I was very surprised to see NSG put wgeurts in her town block and why I questioned that. I think I saw you were asking me about that, FF?

[Dannflor]

No it was not a shot at you FF

[Dannflor]

I see. I didn't like picking at Auro for that especially given that I (and seemingly many others put in this game) don't have the most time in the world. That doesn't mean we still can't give it our all. It's scummy in that it's a very non-game related way to push someone but I need to see more from that slot in general.

Also one of the reasons I was very surprised to see NSG put wgeurts in her town block and why I questioned that. I think I saw you were asking me about that, FF?

I think i did, something about why you would listen to anything NSG has said.

I really respect her reads and by extension RC's reads. If someone I know to be a good player is town reading someone, I want to know why. Regardless of whether they're towny or scummy within the specific game.

I mean I ask my scum reads about their reads a lot too, so I'm not sure why you assume I'd want to ignore NSG either way.

[Dannflor]

Dann, I was the original gentleman 2.

I don't know if you posted before I was replaced haha

At least I don't remember if you did

[Dannflor]

so I'm not sure why you assume I'd want to ignore NSG either way.

This is one of the reasons I reflex voted you last night after skimming your walls. I thought the things you were questioning me for were kinda odd and a little conf-biasy in a "you've already decided I'm gonna be your scum read" type of way.

But I'm gonna read your posts for real now so maybe I'll get a different impression. I do wanna talk about this point especially, however.

[Dannflor]

Also, as far as the discourse around nsg goes, I think if she's scum here than she's not really going to be much of a threat in the end.

If she's town, it behooves us to give her the benefit of the doubt and hopefully eventually the time and space to work in this game and swing the game in our favor.

I also don't really believe nsg would pull real life stuff into the game as an excuse for lurking if she was indeed to trying to lurk as scum.

[Dannflor]

His entrance gut town pinged me. Specifically #265 and #282.. I have no meta with him I just liked those posts as a way to immediately get into the game and start pushing on a deeper level. There's no long useless catch-up which I've seen a little bit of this game.

I mean after the last few pages. Ceph seems townier from them, Esp not.

Haven't read them in detail yet.

I haven't scum read Ceph at all this game—yeah I know I voted him—Esp is a very weak read so I'll let you know if it changes after I catch up.

[Dannflor]

I lied about reading, because I went to make more food first. NOW I am reading.

I voted him because I was frustrated with the gamestate (see: VC's with everyone voting a different person) and wanted to build an actual concrete wagon on someone since my pushes on you and Dongempire were going nowhere. I also was the least sure about him of the leading wagons at the time so it was the best place for my vote to go I thought.

The people I feel I have a good grasp on are Hopkirk and Auro, and I think I'll have a pretty solid grasp on FF and Cephrir once I'm done reading.

[Dannflor]

Okay, read Page 15 and I'm gonna respond to FF since that page was basically all FF. Esp posted a little bit and his posts were... not great / not terrible. I want to know his thoughts on non Auro people.

Should i be insulted by the bold?


Biggest take away from the 1st 5 is a town lean on Ceph based on his vote hoping and the pressure he's putting on slots already.

I don't like how bogged down Dann got with Gob and the RQS about why this game as I posted above I think that there could be info to gain from this.

Was not meant as an insult. I just think you have a naturally confrontational way of playing the game—which is not a bad thing!

Why didn't you like my questioning of Gob? Like you say there could be more here but don't really expand on that, and it's one of the issues I had skimming last night. Like Gob's posting was one of the only bits of content in the game at the time, idk what else you wanted me to engage with, was it how I engaged with it?

Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.

I'm gonna be honest, Dunnstral's posts make me want to fall asleep every time I try to read them, but I think this points more towards town. In very general terms, I think scum are a little more aware of their progressions and making sure they make sense or that there's a paper trail.

Which posts and why didnt they make it onto your catch up? You talk about Dann in your first post and you seem to like him, and then without much mention of him you flip your read.

what was the part you liked? There's not much there

Can you go into your mixed feelings more? Im kinda getting the feeling that youre fishing for reasons to scum read me for some reason and you have nothing right now so you are looking to latch on to someone elses reasons as an excuse to get off the fence on me.

I feel like if I was in a position where I was lacking reasons to scum read someone, I would just park my vote on one of the many lurkers this game. I wouldn't need to blatantly ask people to hand me scum reads. My questioning was more about sorting Dongempire and less you.

But I think I understand how you as town would see that post and think that. I really didn't like it last night but I understand it more now.

Already addressed the NSG thing.

How do you feel about Auro since has basically did the same things as Dong here? Are you tring Auro since you think scumDong latched onto his bad read on Ceph?

I addressed this too but I think Auro approached the read differently, even if they got to the same conclusion. I took specific issue with the

way

Dong did what he did, not what he did specifically.

You could push a scum read of your own? I feel like this whole game you have been asking questions and have been talking a lot but i havent seen a push from you yet, have i? Why jumpstart the game with saying random stuff to see what happens when you have barely said your own reads.

This frustrates me a little. I pushed you! I thought you were scummy and wanted to engage with you, but you kinda disappeared for a couple days. So I pushed Dong instead because he did something that pinged me, and that didn't go anywhere. I feel like those were both "my" pushes. My "random stuff" is not based on nothing, just small things in an attempt to give the game more content—as it feels we're recycling some of the same arguments a lot.

[Dannflor]

and I still wanna talk with you, but I'm not as disgusted by your push on me as I was last night and I quite like the rest of your catchup

VOTE: Dongempire

[Dannflor]

I did feel like Espy took a little while to get going, his first like 8 posts are useless to me.

282 though he took his first stance, and it was a push on you, but i liked his explanation in 297.

I feel the opposite, I liked his entrance/initial post on Auro but I feel like he hasn't added much since then.

[Dannflor]

Ankamius has not read this game yet but I want her to come in soon and be like BAM BOOM GAMESTATE AURO IS TOWN BOOM

because I feel like the gamestate has stalled a long time with Auro as the most pushed player and top wagon and... what is scum doing if he's scum

[Dannflor]

I town read Ceph more, Esp less, and Auro about the same after catching up

[Dannflor]

For me it was the fact that I didnt have an issue with his question. I didnt think that it was one that was unnecessary and I get why he would have had to not out why he was asking just yet because it would ruin whatever he could gain from it. Also most people answered it without really having much of an issue so how much attention it got was in my mind disproportionate.

My take on his question was that it was absolutely useless and he was never going to get anything AI from it. As such, I had no qualms about questioning on it and potentially "ruining" the question because I think there could be SOME value in it in revealing something about gobble, whether he was town who thought that was a good idea or scum trying to look town.

As you say, no one has issue with answering it. It didn't add anything much to the game.

Can you point out where, i dont remember seeing it.

here:

I feel like your level of engagement with Cephrir has been a lot more thorough than Dong's, and from what I gather I think your scum read goes deeper than just vague statements about his posting. I still disagree with your read overall but I think the way you've approached it is a lot townier than the way he has.

I dunno, if it were me I either would have kept at me and made noise in the thread or would have put me on the back burner and looked for one of my buddies. I dont really remember you taking many stances on people but remembered a lot of you questioning other peoples reads.

Me going after Dong was putting you on the backburner and looking for another scum read. I don't see much point in making more noise in the thread at you if you're just not around. I don't take lurking for a short period of time to be AI.

It's probably fair that I've been more in questioning mode than taking stances mode. I have not been able to really bite into some of the content generated this game and I've been trying to help myself latch onto something by asking a lot of questions.

[Dannflor]

town: auro, hopkirk, cephrir
lean town: formerfish

scummy: dongempire

yuck that's a skimpy readslist

everyone else is either a stale town read or someone I need to reread to get a more concrete read on

gobbledygook especially I keep going back and forth on

[Dannflor]

Your Dongempire read's still form his Ceph push, or is there more?
Anything you make from Dong's trajectory on me?

For the most part it's the Ceph push.

#322 is more Ceph pushing and is a lot of words that don't feel like they say a whole lot of anything. More specifically, he seems to be talking to Cephrir like he's town playing incorrectly rather than scum, which doesn't jive with his push.

I thought it didnt feel committed and was trying to check where my loyalties laid, so i responded accordingly and he unvoted and saw that was eight. I dont think scum pulls something like that especially while we were the only ones active amd when he couldnt shade me through that.

Don't town read his reasons for town reading you either. Specifically this line about "scum not pulling something like that," that being unvoting and disengaging? It feels like a TMI town read.

[Dannflor]

because I feel like the gamestate has stalled a long time with Auro as the most pushed player and top wagon and... what is scum doing if he's scum

[Dannflor]

I have a grasp on why you like Hopkirk, but I don't on why you like Auro. (Fun fact, his name shows up in your iso 38 times). The way he handles suspicion still pings me as "caught for the wrong reasons" with misplaced valuations, though I'll admit theory differences seem to exist.

For the most part, I just straight up read the way he handles suspicion differently. I read it as town earnestly trying to understand

why

people are scum reading him, and using that as a jumping off point to sort them. Even if you believe his valuations are misplaced, what's important is that his efforts are focused on the discussion himself, and not necessarily making himself look town. If his goal was to shake the scum reads, I don't know that'd he'd engage with them on such a deep level.

My reading of him extends to me straight up not liking most of the pushes on him. They haven't felt especially convincing, and in some cases not especially earnest, to me.

Does cancel food have a better track record?

Yes! Well, the worst has implied that he has a good track record reading Auro, and that's one of the main reads he's given me this game. Eddie Cane also agrees, though not sure if he has history with Auro or not.

Ank has read 4 pages of this game.

[Dannflor]

discussion itself

EBWOP

[Dannflor]

what's up with the auro wagon

people are DUMB

[Dannflor]

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

NSG, I have to say that this rings hollow. You've done nothing today and seemingly don't plan to do anything. Why would you be the night kill? The sheer force of reputation on your team is not enough to offset the complete lack of effort you've put into this game and the threat other strong town players in this game might pose.

More importantly, a scum lynch day 1 in white flag would be absolutely devastating to the scum. Yet, a scum lynch becomes much much less likely today without your vote and voice. This 20 page game is not long enough to warrant not at least skimming and giving what thoughts/directives you can; in addition, this game

should

be JUST as important to your team as any of the others; not only because day 1 is so important in this setup, but because all the games in TM are weighted equally. Your win here counts just as much for your team as winning any of the other games. I don't believe waiting till D2 to post increases our win chance in this game. So, I really don't see why it would be best for you to not spend time on this game.

Surely RC has considered this, surely you have, and the rest of your team. I didn't have a problem with you claiming IRL matters were getting in the way, but this reads as a lie. Are you just bored with this game? Is your team as a whole disinterested? Why?

What exactly are you thinking?

[Dannflor]

I'm warming up to Dunn as a strong town read and shifting Cephrir back down a little lower. Mixed on FF.

Honestly, I think scum are fairly content to float by and not make any huge waves. With most of the discourse centering around Auro/Cephrir this game, two slots that might be town, I would imagine scum are feeling safe. Looking at the VCs, I'd say it's likely there's one scum on Auro—unsure who that is exactly—and then two off pushing vanity wagons and staying under the radar. Maybe like Dongempire and nsg if I had to just throw names out there.

The counter point to that is that scum

have

to do work to win white flag, they can't just float by forever. However, I think at least given the game pace so far and the general reads I have, scum might not be super pro-active right now.

I think I town leaned FF a bit too far as a reaction to my overreaction to his push on me, if that makes any sense at all. I thought I wasn't giving him enough credit so I swung too far in the opposite direction. I'm realizing I don't have like... super great reasons to town read him except I luke-warm liked the interactions I had with him after we pushed each other and sort of came to a mutual understanding. However, I also don't think he's done too much that's especially towny which is worrying given his large number of posts.

KittyMo I think is town

re; Hopkirk, I can town case him tomorrow, I need to sleep first. I would ask why you're so down on him though? What are your concerns? He's the sort of slot I just want to point to and be like "obv town lol"

[Dannflor]

eddie says hi cheeky

[Dannflor]

ankamius and the worst got jealous and would also like to say hi

[Dannflor]

Hop, why am I a meanie to you?

[Dannflor]

Hop, eddie would like to tell you that I am town

also, if he was playing he'd be voting nsg

[Dannflor]

Cheeky is big town

[Dannflor]

yeah alright

VOTE: nsg

dongempire is not exciting me much anymore anyway

[Dannflor]

I'm probably like

Auro, Hop, Dunn
Cheeky, Kitty, Cephrir?
-other people-
Formerfish
Dongempire, nsg

[Dannflor]

Why town Cheeky? I remember liking her replacee first time around but didn't on a reread. Cheeky feels kind of like 'scummier if we're on right tracks, townier if we're not' to me. Bayesian associations make her slightly scummier based on that, but otherwise no real read on Cheeky's own contributions thusfar.

eddie said 550 sounds town!cheeky in tone

I liked the FF vote from him and his questioning of me was at a deep enough level that I felt like he was actually trying to get info out of me / gauge my alignment. Also, I appreciate he's made a bit of a splash as I haven't though our current trajectory was correct at all.

[Dannflor]

well

we didn't realize it was legal to not tell your team your Role PM sooooo

idk I mean I can't prove that this is true but we all told each other our alignments as soon as we got them

[Dannflor]

eddie has asked me to ask hectic if he thinks that I told eddie my role pm

that's confusing

[Dannflor]

wait

eddie has asked me to ask you to ask hectic if he thinks that I told eddie my role pm

there we go

[Dannflor]

Hops, we have very differing reads.

Eddie's reads are pretty much exactly the opposite of yours.

I town read you but it kinda concerns me, because the only read we really seem to share is like... Dongempire?

Can you go into your reads more? Specifically stuff like Cheeky and Auro, and then Espeon and FF on the other end of the spectrum?

[Dannflor]

i'm all for elitism but cliquishness in mafia is pretty annoying and over-reliance on meta is a great flaw for many otherwise good players

Is this responding to something in particular or are you just ranting

[Dannflor]

I don't think our reads are that different Dann. Ceph town for both. Dong/NSG not good. Main dif is placement of my tone 'I can't sort these comfortably' reads. I agree they're generating content and doing townie things but I'm not convinced that generally strong players can't just do/sound townie like that anyway if they put effort in which the two of them clearly are. There were a couple of things I liked about Kitty, but she's clearly involved to the point I have concerns about sorting her so quickly/easily. Unless you have specifics?

I guess it's just that I feel our most important reads are flipped. Auro and Cheeky are pretty strong town reads for me, and yet they are your scum reads.

Espeon and FF are my very mixed slots, and yet they are in your town core.

You want to scum read Dunn, someone in my town core

Like we align in some aspects but in other points that I feel strongly about we're just completely off base. And I just find that... very uncomfortable? Obviously we're always gonna differ, but in this case I just have such a completely different understanding of key slots that it's hard for me to see where you're coming from.

[Dannflor]

I liked BBmolla's entrance well enough fwiw

[Dannflor]

I am against Lynching NSG on principle of lurkers being terrible day 1 lynches.

She isn't playing the game and we need her to if she's town. If she's not town, she's an excellent day 1 lynch regardless of lurking.

Kitty has some interesting framing from the skimming I did (sorry the posts are dense).

What does this mean exactly?

also literally as soon as we got our role PMs we all told each other on my team, not doing that seems against the spirit of the event to me

why exactly did that exchange have you physically cringing? is it my off-putting personality or do you have a problem with my claim

[Dannflor]

bc it was proxy speaking. Play your own game.

eh sorry if you take issue with this but my whole team are very strong town players and I'm going to use that to my fullest extent

[Dannflor]

well

let's make nsg give us something then

[Dannflor]

I disagree that the nsg wagon is zero information and I think it's very useful even if it doesn't lead to a lynch (though it should if she continues lurking). A scum flip is VERY useful day 1 in this setup even if what you said is correct about it being zero information.

[Dannflor]

like that sounds nice but the reality is this is a much better wagon then any of our previous have been

also "we can't lynch lurkers" does not work in a game where have the player list has under 30 posts

If you had to lynch someone other than Auro, who would it be?

[Dannflor]

dann, what exactly do you think my plan is as scum here? you know that i actually CAN play scum, right? i've endgamed as scum before in white flag (i'm CultOfAthena). i have the capability to put words to paper as scum, especially if it were team mafia, and especially with RC on my team. (personally i would say that the reason i say less as scum in general is more due to lack of interest rather than lack of ability, but that's neither here nor there)

this game is just as important to my team as the others, and that's exactly why we're going with this strategy. i would never be doing this if i wasn't confident in my ability to show that i'm town when the time comes.

voting me is a mistake and won't make me play differently. with the time left in the day and my focus on other games if i switched now then i likely wouldn't get an optimal lynch but i would still paint a target on my back.

Yeah, that's exactly the counter point I offered earlier and why I'm more interested in having you start playing this game than actually lynching you.

I am not comfortable with the fact that you seem content to let D1 go by entirely without your influence, and I don't see the value in waiting until D2 given the target you already have on your back as town. Why does this strategy improve our win percent over giving input in this game, even if it's not under ideal circumstances?

[Dannflor]

bc it was proxy speaking. Play your own game.

eh sorry if you take issue with this but my whole team are very strong town players and I'm going to use that to my fullest extent

Knowing your team and knowing your team knows me, it should come as no surprise to them that I don't give two shits what they say if they aren't playing. Bc they aren't the slot and will objectively have an easier time giving real thoughts that aren't NAI. So I would appreciate if you can at least make it clear what you think independently of what they say.

I think I've been doing that?

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want more thoughts from strong players in the game. You seem more worried about people's read on me being influenced than how they can be used to solve the game.

[Dannflor]

Bc they aren't the slot and will objectively have an easier time giving real thoughts that aren't NAI.

like this is so weird

why are you worried about whether they're alignment indicative or not

If I'm town their thoughts massively contribute in helping to solve the game

[Dannflor]

if I'm scum they are scum thoughts and wouldn't be real thoughts, or would be AI

if you're going with the "I didn't tell them my role PM theory" then they are still town thoughts!

[Dannflor]

taking a step back from all this team strategy talk stuff since it seems to be a difference in philosophy

Are you scum reading me? Are you unsure and have doubts? If so why and where are those doubts placed

[Dannflor]

I think you are too strong a player to be so wrong without questioning why others aren't agreeing with you.

I feel like I've done nothing but question what's up with the Auro wagon this game. I feel strongly about it but I've also been trying to dissect *why* people are scum reading him.

Auro, Dunn, Dann, Ceph, and Kitty.

I could also say the same thing regarding this list, which fmpov looks like 5 town. Besides Auro, most of those slots have a fair amount of town reads too.

What does your list of town or lean-town look like?

[Dannflor]

I think Auro has been very pro-town this game

[Dannflor]

im sorry what

[Dannflor]

ur mom is very dangerous wifom

[Dannflor]

- Would like to see Dannflor explain the Dunnstral town core read at some point

I'm in the middle of doing that right now actually!

[Dannflor]

It's part of a larger wall reads post though, would you like me to just cut it out and post it now so you can read it before you leave?

[Dannflor]

Also I'm curious why specifically you have Cephrir as such strong town

[Dannflor]

I have some thoughts dropped by my teammates I will probably share but I'll hide them in a wall Esp won't read

[Dannflor]

arguing in a mafia game is a scum tell tbh

[Dannflor]

Dann you've promised two town cases now on hop and Dunn. Should I stop holding my breath?

That's rude!

I fell asleep last night, my big reads list won't be coming until tonight probably. But I did already get the Dunn section done.

Spoiler: Dunn read

Dunnstral

- Town. This read took a while to form. I don't know what's it been about his posts but I've just had a hard time parsing or focusing on them? I want to blame the wall post style but that's extremely hypocritical of me given I often default to that style. I think I've just been tired! Anyway, actually reading his posts it's uh... pretty good. I think the biggest factor here is the distinct lack of agenda present in his posting. His wall posts reek of good faith town sorting. I especially like progressions such as in #346 where he comes to an understanding with gobble, doesn't make a big LAMIST show of it, and moves quietly on to his next scum read. I like Dunn getting town pinged by my early posting #154 and then subsequently scum reading me and not hesitating to push me / question me. It shows a desire to constantly reevaluate without worrying about

looking

like he's constantly reevaluating. The uncertainty in #512 reads genuine and towny to me, as well as echoing some of the sentiments I've had about this game recently. In more general terms, he asks good questions.

also I did not case Hop immediately because when I engaged with him yesterday I was bothered with some things so I needed to think about it

[Dannflor]

which is to say I am less certain on Hop town than I was when I was talking to you

still probably lean town though so I'll talk about that

[Dannflor]

Where is your head at right now regarding who you want to lynch?

You're voting Cephrir and yet you say Esp is your top scum read. Who is in your town block?

[Dannflor]

well I'll give you a sneak preview of where my reads list is going

VOTE: Espeonage

despite what I've said I don't actually want to lynch nsg day 1, I was just hoping wagoning her would be effective in getting her to play and ehhhhhh

she out bluffed me

[Dannflor]

Where's Ceph at for you, Dong?

[Dannflor]

I think esp's dancing around nsg was overly lamist and fake in a lot of ways that makes him scum regardless of nsg's alignment

[Dannflor]

Why is Dong pretty blatant scum?

I was scum reading him but actually liked his pop in today a little?

[Dannflor]

Finding you scummy for something you do as both alignments is not bad reasoning, its reasoning you dont like.

this doesn't make sense

if something is an element of both a player's town game and scum game then doesn't that by definition make it NAI

[Dannflor]

FF what are you hoping to get out of this debate?

[Dannflor]

You never stopped voting Auro

Who became your top scum read instead?

[Dannflor]

The current exchange literally made me facepalm.

[Dannflor]

quick update since I didn't get to do my promised master reads list today:

[Auro, Cheeky, KittyMo, Dunnstral]
[Cephrir, Hopkirk]
[Dongempire, BBmolla, gobbledygook] -- null line (mostly mixed / undecided feelings on these slots)
[Formerfish, nsg]
[Espeonage]

I'll be going into all of these but let me know if there are any specifically I should delve into / make a priority, already did Dunn if anyone missed that

[Dannflor]

rapid fire explanations for some stuff

Dongempire got better for me today

BBmolla I have concerns about but I need to see more

Gobbledygook is such a stale town read I'm just resetting there

I did not town read FF's exchange with Auro today at all. I think generally FF's attitude has been just slightly off of his usual self, in that his confrontation is being used for defensiveness rather than purely attacking. mental note to bring up some specific examples of this tomorrow

nsg like... I hope I'm not just being a coward in unvoting. At this point I need to talk to my team and get some second-hand opinions. no one is caught up yet except for Eddie who shares the Esp/nsg scum reads. I'm just worried about the off-chance that nsg is town and how much it might hurt our win condition if we lynch her D1.

[Dannflor]

Eddie says that he agrees with Ceph exactly and his kill pool is Esp, Dong, Ff, and nsg

[Dannflor]

Hello. In this post I will vomit words. Read it if it'll be helpful in sorting me or other people.

Spoiler: Town Reads!

Dunnstral

- Town. This read took a while to form. I don't know what's it been about his posts but I've just had a hard time parsing or focusing on them? I want to blame the wall post style but that's extremely hypocritical of me given I often default to that style. I think I've just been tired! Anyway, actually reading his posts it's uh... pretty good. I think the biggest factor here is the distinct lack of agenda present in his posting. His wall posts reek of good faith town sorting. I especially like progressions such as in #346 where he comes to an understanding with gobble, doesn't make a big LAMIST show of it, and moves quietly on to his next scum read. I like Dunn getting town pinged by my early posting #154 and then subsequently scum reading me and not hesitating to push me / question me. It shows a desire to constantly reevaluate without worrying about looking like he's constantly reevaluating. The uncertainty in #512 reads genuine and towny to me, as well as echoing some of the sentiments I've had about this game recently. In more general terms, he asks good questions.

CheekyTeeky

- Town. Eddie Cane helped with this read initially but since then I've liked a lot of Cheeky's posts individually. For the most part, I keep mind melding with him—which I've found to be a pretty good way to tell when someone is town—both in his entrance/initial FF vote in #552 and more recently in feeling better about Dong in #916. Cheeky has been relentless in asking people who town read his scum reads to explain where they're at, and genuinely attempting to get at the root of the difference in read. He asks Dunnstral to explain town FF and me to explain town Hopkirk. I think Cheeky has the best balance of asking good questions and actual sorting / taking stances of anyone in the game, and as such is probably my strongest town read right now. Also contrary to what BBmolla said, I really like all of his votes and timing of all of his votes. Cheeky's general paranoia and continued probing/hedging on me while still *shrugging* and putting me in his top bracket also reads like a townie progression. It shows that he's not just throwing shade at me because he can and it'll keep me from town blocking, but he actually wants to determine my alignment.

Auro

- Town. Here's the spicy one. I started town reading Auro very early on with post #50, where his concerns about Gobble's question echoed exactly what I was thinking at the time. Honestly, reading back over his ISO, I see *why* people scum read him, even if I don't agree. In general, the scum reads on him seem to be a clash in style, where Auro is a player who gets a lot out of dissecting and evaluating other player's reads on himself, whereas other players see that as overly defensive and scummy. And the thing is, I feel like Auro is a good enough player to just know that as scum, he could let some of these attacks go and look a lot better for it, but he engages in the sometimes fruitless arguments—like recently with FF—anyway. You could argue that he's just trying to clutter the thread as a scum strategy, but I really don't think that's a danger in this game with such a slow pace. Instead, it reads much more like a town mindset that's very willing to go into just about anything and everything, EVEN if that reflects poorly on himself. Like, I don't read Auro's posts and think that his defensiveness is image based, or that he's worried about being town read. Instead, I see Auro using other's reads on him as a way into sorting those people. This is shown in posts like #203 and in his reads list in #491. If Auro was focused on image, I don't think he comes around so quickly to Ceph!town when Ceph was his original attacker. His reads on Dong and Esp are also generated out of his direct engagement with them. I ALSO think it's been quite clear for a while that Auro's method has only been causing more people to scum read him, and I think Auro is smart enough to see that. Yet, he hasn't stopped. Which simply points to Auro just being town. Town that clashes with other town? Maybe, but still town.

KittyMo

- Town. Someone else said earlier that the timing of KittyMo's vote on NSG was towny, I agree with that. I'm not going to harp on too long with this read because I think it's fairly consensus. However, I will say that her progressions and thought processes in a post like #527 is super towny. She takes strong stances but still has an ounce of uncertainty that speaks to her alignment. It's not fence-sitting for an agenda, but more believable uncertainty and trying to get to a concrete conclusion despite evidence in both directions. You can see the same sort of thing in her read of me. Similar to Cheeky, she has her (valid) concerns about me but isn't interested in using them to just discredit me. Also "I guess I'm bored of everyone saying he's too good at scum to deserve to be townread or whatever with minimal elaboration" felt like an especially towny way to approach the read on me. I think me being a more uncertain town read is always going to be beneficial for scum and just dismissing that so casually is towny. Also KittyMo makes me laugh and I don't want her to be scum

Cephrir

- Lean Town. Idk like, what is Cephrir really doing if he's scum? His disinterest in this game has read pretty genuine compared to other players' similar sentiments (more on this later), and his complete lack of regard for engaging with Dong or Auro in #315 is ACTUALLY towny. Definitely a style difference between Auro and him, but in this game especially I think makes Ceph greater than rand town. We have a lot of wall posters and people engaging over every little squibble and detail, and Ceph has firmly said he's not gonna do either of those things. Psychologically, scum want to blend in and what he's done is exactly the opposite of what he needs to do for that. Is Cephrir a good enough scum player to just say fuck it and do that anyway? Probably. But I like his trajectory on NSG and nothing about his posts have really scum pinged me, so he's leaning towards the town category for now.

Hopkirk

- Lean town. Another read Eddie had first. Early on, his analysis in #73 and #149 concerning gobble was something unique no one else had latched onto yet and showed a level of deeper thinking that's harder for scum to pull off. Later on, Hopkirk's reaction to the modkill in #304 was especially genuine. I don't really think that:

A. Hop spends so much time ranting about this if he's rolled scum and really doesn't have to worry about this as much.
B. Hop lies and uses this event as scum to AtE and try to gain a distinct advantage.

A lot of the rest of the reasons I like him for town are similar for my town!Dunnstral reasons. My one main worry here is that his reads in #600 are... kind bad? Like even if you exclude me from that list, there's still Dunn, Auro, and Cheeky in his scum pool that really all deserve to be town cored IMO. I also don't think Gobble or Ceph have done enough to be town cored. FF and Espeon are just straight up scummy. So ehhhhhh... This read has dropped a lot in town equity since that post.

Spoiler: IDK!

gobbledygook

- Mixed. So uh... I was lightly town reading him off his hyperactivity and reaction to pressure in the early game. But since he's completely lurked out of the game, and even admitted to strategically lurking in #344... I just really don't know anymore? My town read on him is extremely stale and I feel like gobble just kinda disappeared at the height of his pressure/wagon, which is NOT a towny look. If he has IRL issues that's fine, but I really need to see more from him soon.

BBmolla

- Mixed. Blah. I liked the entrance and subsequent vote on Dong! It was very sharp! Since then, I'm not a fan of him writing off Dong's pop-in as fence sitty in #772, not a fan of lambasting Cheeky's vote in #793, not a fan of the "I'm obv town" bravado in #800, and not a fan of the overly dramatic and fake feeling #897. In all of these posts there is just a complete lack of any attempts to engage with other players, opting instead for making large sweeping statements and hoping people will town read him through brute force? Idk. Like I liked him, but now his push on Dong has actually made me feel less like I want to lynch Dong.

Dongempire

- Mixed. I thought his pushes on Cephrir on Auro were god-awful, I really did. I mentioned this before but I also hated the timing of his vote in #228. It feels like a very slimy way to get on the Cephrir wagon ESPECIALLY because Dong had just said he wasn't voting Cephrir said because he needed to clear his mind on FF... Yet, there is no engagement or thoughts on FF in between that statement and the vote on Cephrir. Feels like a fake excuse just so he can get optimal timing. On the flip side, I actually like #758 and #763 . Fence sitty? Yes. But tonally this feels like it really could just be uncertain town. The progression of pushing Auro and Ceph to start with and now town reading them is like... very blatant and kinda ballsy for scum in his position. also don't think it's very AI, but I very appreciated the snark in #875.

Spoiler: Scum Reads!

Formerfish

- Pretty scummy! This feels very different from town!Formerfish that I've played with before. I was town pinged by him a little when we engaged cirque his wall posts and he was actually asking me some good questions. Aside from that though, his ISO is very sparse of content that's not unneeded aggression or quibbling over semantics that don't matter. Reads list in #366 also seems... I don't wanna say political, but kinda like he just threw names into different categories until it passed the eye test. I don't understand why wgeurts or Espy or even Hop was in his town list at this point. And Joan and Dong both just feel like easy names to throw in the scum pile without elaboration.

Let's talk about FF's aggression this game, which is actually a lot less aggressive than town!FF! Or at the very least, it's directed differently. In #842 and #847 FF's questioning is:

A. not really useful in encouraging productive AI discussion
B. Assuming the person he's talking to is town, which in both cases, he was scum reading the person he was talking to

Generally, I expect FF not to hold himself back when he thinks someone is scum, he will call them out on being scum. When he's interacting with them, he tries to push them on the reasons why he thinks this. He was sort of doing this with me much earlier in the game, which is why I was town reading him, but overall, he seems much more apt to get involved in fights about semantics and rather useless things. It feels like he's kind of trying to imitate his town self in posts like #852, but it lacks any sense of being genuine when his cases and arguments are lacking the type of logic I would expect from him.

When I ask him about his progression on Auro, he responds with this:

Auro dropped lower to a scum lean because of interactions earlier. I was looking at others but had no reason to change my vote at that time. Nothing came up with the people I was scum reading and then this happened and pushed him further back down my list.

Should I be more rigid with my read?

The bolded is extremely defensive aggression that I don't think FF goes to as town. Furthermore, I don't really think this is how he responds to or interacts with a purported scum read at all.

NSG

- Lean scum. It's possible I'm so hesitant on this read because I really really really want NSG to be town this game. However, if that's the case, I really don't understand what the fuck she's doing this game. Her argument in #669 that she CAN play scum and that her game plan doesn't make too much sense as scum has some credibility. However, we're 1 day away from the deadline with the primary wagon still on her. Half the game has expressed being okay with lynching her here (I think some of the latter sentiments have been scummier than the earlier ones)... NOW is the time to show that she is town. It's really really strange because I don't see NSG, nor RC, or really that whole team being just okay with her slot dying here. This sort of leads me to believe that NSG just can't put the time in, but with half the other games in night phase that seems demonstrably untrue.

Now we're in a position where NSG is one of a few viable lynch options and only 24 hours left. Does a town!NSG let herself get into that position? It's hard for me to see that. And there are viable reasons as to why a scum!NSG would choose this strategy for the first day, such as fear of BoP.

Either way this slot intensely frustrates me and I think if town, NSG would have taken care to spend more time reassuring us that her efforts would go here eventually. Like 515 and 669 don't do enough and I feel like town!NSG should have the sense to know that?

Espeonage

- Scummy. I don't really buy Espeonage's whole "this game sucks, you all suck, and I'm sick of this" schtick. Even if some part of it is genuine, it's overblown to the point where it's a startingly large percentage of Esp's posts, which only accomplishes being a rather LAMIST sentiment. More LAMIST proclaiming in #663 with a level of analysis that reaches the highs of "lynch lurkers bad," without considering why people are suspicious of NSG in particular. I think the dichotomy of being able to compromise on most of the player list, and then also town leaning most of the player list is something that shows either a complete lack of effort or a scum player that is trying to keep their options open.

I'm trying not to let my read be tainted by my utter dislike of Espeonage's attitude, so I'm trying to be as objective as possible. But I don't really think the "lone wolf against the world" attitude is anything towny. I've correctly town read players like mbaki before for such mentalities because at least they were still trying to reach out and had actual reason to be angry. In this game, Espeonage seems to have come into the game with the express intent to be as grumpy as possible and not engage. Like nothing exactly caused this, this was how he entered the game. Anger is fine, but I don't read it as genuine given the lack of attempts to engage with anyone. It feels like Espeonage has spent more time talking about how they can't engage with anyone than even trying. This is maybe my least confident out right scum read right now, but Eddie has also backed it up so \o/

tl;dr: town core of [Auro, Cheeky, KittyMo, Dunnstral]

want to lynch in [FF, Esp, NSG]

could probably compromise on one of my mixed reads, BBmolla especially but ehhh I mostly wanna give those slots more time because I think they CAN become readable

VOTE: FF

This is what I want to kill most.

[Dannflor]

I do not feel like he's solving. Like the reason I was asking him what he was hoping to get out of that discussion is because his attacks are empty. He goes from arguing semantics with Auro to saying Auro must have a red PM and shutting him down. Where do you see him solving?

[Dannflor]

I could kill the rooster

Did not particularly like his vote on FF all things considered

[Dannflor]

eddie said he would switch cephrir and Dunn as far as read confidence goes but otherwise agrees with my reads

He wants to kill in nsg, ff, esp, dong, gobble specifically

[Dannflor]

Quote the multiple people explaining why it's anti-town.

People don't need to explain things to your liking for it to be true, your role pm dictated that long before you opened your mouth and let us all see which color you got as clearly as you did when you opened the pm.

[Dannflor]

VC has 3 on NSG, 3 on FF currently

[Dannflor]

northsidegal - 3 (Cephrir, Hopkirk, Kittymo)
Formerfish - 3 (CheekyTeeky, Dannflor, gobbledygook)
Auro - 2 (Espeonage, Formerfish)
Dongempire - 1 (BBMolla)
wguerts - 1 (northsidegal)
gobbledygook - 1 (Dunnstral)

for reference

[Dannflor]

Formerfish - 4 (CheekyTeeky, Dannflor, BBmolla, gobbledygook)
northsidegal - 3 (Cephrir, Hopkirk, Kittymo)
Auro - 2 (Espeonage, Formerfish)
wguerts - 1 (northsidegal)
gobbledygook - 1 (Dunnstral)

fixed

[Dannflor]

northsidegal - 3 (Cephrir, Hopkirk, Kittymo)

this wagon looks really good

[Dannflor]

there's a possibility of FF votes being bus votes but this wagon has uh [all of my townreads minus Cheeky]

[Dannflor]

I would like to get NSG's reads before the deadline please

[Dannflor]

I intend on voting nsg but don't want to leave her at L-2 before she's posted

[Dannflor]

actually fuck it I'm gonna be around till the deadline I think VOTE: NSG

[Dannflor]

something about this whole interaction is very icky

[Dannflor]

Dunn, has your whole team been following along? Do any of them have any other thoughts to offer?

[Dannflor]

I mean what do you expect him to do as town who town reads FF, Cheeky?

[Dannflor]

ff is being put up as a coutner wagon

by who? me and cheeky were the main pushers of it

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Gobble

[Dannflor]

I’m kickstarting the game kappa

[Dannflor]

You could start with sorting the votes that came onto your wagon like a town person about to be lynched would do.

You're really setting the townread I let dann sell me on on fire here my dude.

Eddie strongly agrees with this

he used an acronym for “laughing my ass off”

[Dannflor]

votes on the turkey please

[Dannflor]

Ff would you vote gobble

Neither me or Auro are getting lynched today

[Dannflor]

Unless you think you can make a convincing case that’ll sway a bunch of minds in less than 24 hours

[Dannflor]

Ff not immediately going to one of his counter wagons is maybe towny

But ff I would implore you to put your vote to good use. Our choices are like gobble/ff/nsg at this point and nsg seems to have fully flaked, so I’d like to see what a replacement has to offer that slot

[Dannflor]

if FF ever flips red then kill Dunn 100%

[Dannflor]

Wait sorry

Ff

You still think I’m scum?

[Dannflor]

Like you actually believe that?

[Dannflor]

if FF ever flips red then kill Dunn 100%

Do you really believe this?

it's just sort of a, you would have to die at that point kinda thing

[Dannflor]

I feel like no one would want you in LyLo if you had hard defended a scum lynch

[Dannflor]

@mod, will there be an extension if NSG is replaced

[Dannflor]

I remember feeling different about you but cant remember why.

different in a good way? bad way? Why do you wanna hang me

[Dannflor]

ceph who do you want to kill most

[Dannflor]

Tbh even though I'm really mad at Dunn I think Dann looks worse.

excellent

[Dannflor]

VOTE: FF

god im so indecisive right now

[Dannflor]

Have I burned enough town cred to not be the NK yet

[Dannflor]

I think history has told me that when I'm super indecisive I should stick with my gut

and my gut says FF is scum

I was hoping my team would swoop in and tell me what to do, but neither Ank nor Tom is around

[Dannflor]

I don’t really wanna do NSG anymore

FF or gobble I think

[Dannflor]

gobble dropped off the face of the earth after the first few pages

Since then most of his posts have been excuses for lurking

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

I’m gonna take a few hours break from the game and come back and make my decision. I think I need to take a step back and mull these last pages over

[Dannflor]

I just refuse to accept that this supposedly legendary town player thinks the right move is to do nothing and hope not to be night killed. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Gtfo.

What's confusing is: if FF and Gob are town, then why did NSG bother voting FF anyway? A townflip prolly looks worse on NSG than her continuing to not contribute.
Although she'd have to post something anyway to avoid force replacement.
Although as scum she could've chosen a different wagon entirely, taking advantage of last-day chaos. Or even Gobble, to be honest, given the relative resistance.

I'm thinking about this

I think FF is the most likely wagon to go through that's not NSG, despite Dunn's resistance. I reads pretty survivalistic tbh

Like there are too many people who agree on NSG but disagree on other wagons for scum!NSG to just push a random wagon. I really wish she would give reads. Anything. Because it feels really bad to lynch her if she's town and she provided no input... but at this point I don't feel too bad because if town she actively chose to deprioritize this game.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: NSG

[Dannflor]

gobble has very high partner equity with NSG btw

[Dannflor]

VOTE: nsg

You do not get to coast through this day on reputation. That's unfair to everyone involved. Be town or die. We can solve this game without whatever magical scumhunting powers you supposedly possess.

i'm slightly distressed that the idea that i'm attempting to leverage my "reputation" or "bank on being paragon" is a thing. i've never once brought it up and never would, because i don't think of myself that way. i'm very sorry if that's the image of me that you've gotten, as someone who thinks herself better than others. please trust me when i say that's not the case.

a large part of your reasoning for not getting involved in this game D1 has been so you can commit D2 and avoid the NK

which kinda seems like you're assuming your reputation will lend you to being a NK without you doing a thing D1

[Dannflor]

kittymo ninja'd me but yeah

[Dannflor]

when you first posted that eddie said he thought RC wrote it because it did not sound like you at all

[Dannflor]

this is frustrating

NSG how much of the game have you read? have you been able to keep up or have internet issues / whatever else prevented that?

[Dannflor]

uh I was not implying 1120 was written by anyone else to be clear, I was talking about the "if I'm not night killed post." But yes, it's possible that was misinterpreted due to general frustration with the strategy.

[Dannflor]

I think Cephrir reads pretty genuine here

[Dannflor]

VOTE: FF

I need to sleep. Be back in 8 hours.

[Dannflor]

that ate really doesn’t make me want to unvote

[Dannflor]

ankamius prefers FF here for the *information*

[Dannflor]

I feel like the obvious scum never actually seem to flip scum and the 'people i kind of townread d1' are the people who actually flip scum a lot more often.

Hop 'hoppop' hop

sure

Who would this implicate for you then

[Dannflor]

it seems pretty likely there’s at least 1 scum within nsg and FF due to nsg pushing FF

[Dannflor]

@NSG, if you're around, Ank specifically wants to know your read on Gobble and why please

[Dannflor]

The last 3 posts he made seem like its coming from frustrated scum that got caught due to luck

, and his desperation to switch to a NSG wagon shows that also.

actually this ^^^

If people don't want to lynch FF due to other reasons that's fine and I'd ask for elaboration on that

but the AtE from him two pages ago is nothing towny

[Dannflor]

it’s mine too cheeky

But this is really not towny ate

Out of the wagons I feel like only nsg, ff, and gobble are likely to go through at this point

Gobble feels like the ultimate compromise lynch and I’d rather have FF over nsg both for scum equity and potential information

[Dannflor]

He’s L-2 I believe

[Dannflor]

Oh shit I thought the deadline was in 6 hours, not a day and 6 hours

I guess a CFD is still possible but I’d really only be happy with Espe outside of the current wagons

[Dannflor]

Duck thinks that generally FF has been a lot more defensive this game than his usual self, which would make sense if he was playing with more of an inward focus due to fear of mislynch risk. However, I don’t think he was seriously wagoned until very recently? So I’m not sure that explanation holds any merit.

He’s doing some more reading before I get a final opinion

[Dannflor]

ok

Officially my whole team is on board killing FF

[Dannflor]

how is she doing that?

[Dannflor]

she's site-flaked in general the last few days, while it's frustrating she has very little to offer here idk how alignment indicative that actually is considering, same goes for not being able to answer every post flung at her when she came back

[Dannflor]

I'm gonna need more than "her posts coming back were blatantly scum"

because while I don't agree with how she approached this game, I think it's reasonable for her to not want to dive into efforting this game with such limited amount of time left.

Even if you're right and she is obviously scum, we lose so much if she's town that it's just smarter to give her D2, and if this persists, kill it with fire. You'd have more luck convincing me on a Gobble CFD tbh

NSG has 100% ability to town tell if she is given the proper time. Formerfish has well over 100 posts and there is very little to town read him for.

[Dannflor]

Both NSG and FF are playing survivalistically and a little slimy tbh

but NSG at least is being honest about it while FF is throwing out AtE. I don't like either one but I can see NSG's posts coming from a town mindset/strategy more than I can see a town!FF.

And I don't think NSG becomes *harder* to catch D2

[Dannflor]

Like, I'm sorry. I know everyone hates what she's doing and are offended and want to kill her for it. But some part of it at least makes sense. town!NSG DOES want to survive till late game, and on that team she does have a target on her back. Does that mean she has to be town? No, but her putting her attention on other games and failing to have presence here D1 is not as automatic a scum indicator as people seem to believe.

It's possible I'm completely wrong and she's still just-scum™, but I can see her playing out the game this way as both alignments. Sorry FF if you're town, but I'd rather take NSG later into the game than you as it stands.

[Dannflor]

Also like, FF's response to getting wagoned is to act super defeatist

He's not giving reads and he's not trying to sort, he's just trying to make everyone feel bad and voting his counter wagon that he wasn't scum reading before. The townie response should be to leave your final thoughts with town when it looks like you're gonna die

like FF, if you are town here, you are doing nothing to help me or anyone else see it

[Dannflor]

chinese fire drill

everyone switches votes to another lynch target last moment

NSG for the past several days has site-flaked entirely, that's why I buy her internet issues excuse. Before then she was active elsewhere and very open about doing so.

[Dannflor]

FF reads list please?

[Dannflor]

Sorry FF if you're town, but I'd rather take NSG later into the game than you as it stands.

I'd hang him just for this comment.

Thanks for letting me know that a fucking empty space is better than having me around Dann.

That is not exactly what I mean.

I do not town read you. Your recent content has... well, not been content. It has been this. And as it stands I'd rather have someone who I think has a decent chance of being town and giving a lot of great content in the future than someone scummy who is refusing to give any content.

This is not an attack on your character. I just scum read you and your current play is not helping me see otherwise if I'm wrong.

[Dannflor]

you both aren't giving content

but like also I scum read you

that's the key part here

and you're not engaging me on that, instead you're trying to make me feel bad for that

Which is really hard for me to see coming from a town perspective!

[Dannflor]

my point was not "I'd rather have an empty slot than FF around lol" just to be completely clear here

[Dannflor]

It was more that in a scenario where you are both scummy fmpov, I'd like to see what nsg has to offer D2 more. does that make sense

[Dannflor]

well if we're not getting anything else here then I've said all I need to say today

hammer whenever imo

[Dannflor]

I think it's obvious that he's frustrated

I think it's obvious that it comes from town

Can you expand on why you see it coming from town specifically?

[Dannflor]

I don't think it's obvious that it comes from town*

[Dannflor]

do not have souls

do not fall for the AtE

[Dannflor]

There has to be scum at the center of the gamestate here

there would not be this much conflict if there wasn't

[Dannflor]

Why didn't Dong vote Former there

[Dannflor]

yeah the nsg wagon looks a lot better