TM2020 | Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime! | Endgame

[Jingle]

I don't think ofhrz hito fullclaims are necessary, tbh.

[Jingle]

ofhrz/hito/kerset, I mean.

[Jingle]

Klick and Bitmap are unclaimed, afaik.

Chem hasn't claimed what type of investigation he has.

[Jingle]

I mean... 9 alive, mastina/ofhrz/hito all conftown, chem/Kerset functionally conftown.

That leaves a lynch pool of me/shadow/bit/Klick. If the conftown are accurate, we can just chain lynches through the remainder. If they aren't, chem/kerset both have the theoretical ability to stop a kill/clear a slot and have to go immediately if town. If they don't die, they have to clear someone in the lynch pool or justify why they're alive, which means they can't endgame. Ofhrz can shoot someone in the lynch pool.

I don't see how town loses from here, tbh.

If Kers can stop a kill, he protects chem. ofhrz picks a target in the lynch pool, and investigations choose someone inside the lynch pool but outside of the vig target.

I don't think who we lynch particularly matters at this point, other than, y'know, maybe we three consecutive scumlynch for bragging rights.

PEdit: Klick's claim is :eyebrows:

[Jingle]

ok RC is being stupid now

He said all of your mother's wears army boots.

She does, actually. Ask RC why he's spying on my mom's feet. That's pretty weird.

[Jingle]

Mastina claimed she was full BP and it's not worth talking about past that.

[Jingle]

My pet theory is that ofrhz is SK here. It would make sense with all the town power. It's not that relevant for now though since sorting a third mafia is much more important.

If ofhrz shoots outside of PoE he dies. If he doesn't shoot he can't win. If scum can shoot, they have to kill him because if he's a vig they're fucked.

ofSK is like 0% threatening.

Mastina doesn't die tonight.
Hito doesn't die tonight.

Chem/Kers/of all have to die fast for a scumwin. of dying gets rid of paranoia, so no protection there.

We actually might want to have chem/kers fullclaim so as to take advantage of their third actions. Knowing whether Chem can full clear/Kers can protect is useful to theoretically leashing Klick's doc. Lynch bit, vig me or Shadow, of's choice but he outs before nightfall.

[Jingle]

If we have multiple protections, having them on different targets is good.
If we have multiple investigations, having them on different targets is good.
If we have scum faking actions, accountability is good. (Klick can't kill Kerset and claim to have docced Chem, for example.)

It's not worth outing whether of still has shots (if we don't scum has to play around him having the shots which benefits us either way).

I'm kinda thinking Klick is the only one who needs to have a strict answer on who to protect, unless Kerset has a 1 shot doc in their arsenal. If Kers can doc Chem and Klick can doc Kers, scum has to kill in ofhrz and the PoE pool. Chem can clear someone in the PoE pool, and scum is further fucked.

So I guess, I want to know if Kerset can protect Chem or if Klick should just be on Chem.

[Jingle]

Jingle what did you mean here

Mena's claim never comes from one of my partners. (Mechanical)

I don't see how Mena's claim has anything to do with his team; is that something you're using to generate reads somehow?

If I had been scum this game we would have planned fakeclaims D1 and vig wouldn't have been anywhere near the table.

Mastina should be able to corroborate, but honestly it doesn't matter since I don't think it matters if I'm on the lynch table here.

[Jingle]

first post is a locktown post

Stop using hyperbole. I’m sure it took you a few pages to get that read.

[Jingle]

Farkran thinks that 1440 points at scum!jingle, because Mena was deliberately lurking. "he was being quiet here in order to hide from Jingle in the other game. Which is why he was lurking.

Alternative theory, mena was scum in both games and wanted to mitigate “Oh shit he snowed me as scum paranoia” and I fell for it.

I agree that I’m a fine vig/investigation, though, whichever ofhrz decides.

[Jingle]

Interesting.

Night action results?

[Jingle]

Actually, we should probably be smart about this, JIC I'm wrong and that kill doesn't guilty Klick.

[Jingle]

Chem claims whether he got a useful result or not first. Then Kerset claims the same.

[Jingle]

Not what the result is, just whether it exists, to be clear.

[Jingle]

no one claim talisman receipt or results until we figure out order!!

my thoughts are ofrhz, kerset, klick, chemist, jingle, shadoweh, myself. with folks claiming their full role, actions, and anything that happened to them on their turn and not before. we can talk out other orders but I don't want claims slipping out until the order is resolved.

this order is not at all a reflection of reads but just sort of "the people who could warp their results the most first, and the people who couldn't take advantage of that info as scum last" plus some secret sauce since I know what I did

p.edit oh but chemist after jingle is the one read-based exception, Jingle I think chemist should always go after Kerset after how D2 went

I'm fine with reversing chemist and Kerset.

I'm still a VT and didn't act last night, although I may or may not have received an invention.

I'm waiting for a PP clarification that may just guilty Klick, but you should probably ask how your talisman and a doc would interact in case he won't answer me. I assume mastina fakeclaimed 1 shot BP into full BP (because duh), but if not then that necessitates a second scum strongman shot, which is interesting.

[Jingle]

NVM, PP came in with the answer. If doc and 1 shot BP both prevented a kill, BP would remain active.

[Jingle]

I have a useful result

Like cop clear useful

Should I claim it

Not yet.

[Jingle]

Jingle just pretend nothing is guilty or inno until we walk the line of claims, right now I wanna play gunboats and see if we can just win mechanically.

I have three guilties on whoever we lynched D1.

Also, I forgot to submit my "Vanilla all over the thread" action and Penguin says I'll have to be satisfied with the mess I left N1.

[Jingle]

I'll let you orchestrate the mechanics for now, since you have more info than I do, though.

[Jingle]

Nah, we can afford to spend 48 hours or so on this.

[Jingle]

Yeah, who speaks English.

[Jingle]

Still a vt

[Jingle]

So, Hito, anything more to claim?

[Jingle]

The reason I put VT's last was to check the blind spot of Kerset permanent ascetic. If Kerset was ascetic, going so early in the order would have made it really dicey to claim talisman receipt or not even if he also had a rolecop on my third talisman (or a guess, it's a natural complement to hated). He'd have to be a really ballsy ascetic to guess he got it that early.

I mean... if it's loved, we can check it. We put Kers to dead and check to see if he actually dies.

[Jingle]

I mean... We absolutely check Kerset for asceticism today, because why wouldn't we?

BP doesn't show up to followers, explicitly. It only sees active use powers. Also, scum doctor for a 1 shot vig is like the stupidest design choice ever.

Ideally the lynch order FMPOV would be literally everyone else. Is there any reason you dropped Shadow from your lynch consideration post hito? Was there a required order for your talismans? Was talisman use compulsive?

VOTE: Kerset

Trying to prove/disprove loved, we should be 4 to lynch and Kerset/Klick/Chem can be trusted not to hammer. The rest of us can go ahead and vote here and then unvote when we know there isn't a fakeclaim of Loved receipt.

[Jingle]

I'm not sure, there's reasons to townread everyone tbh.

[Jingle]

Kerset should be off wagon completely.

[Jingle]

Like, Kerset will never self hammer.

Chem/Klick are town and thus won't hammer. That means scum can't hammer.

[Jingle]

The N2 kill was either a scum no-kill, a double-stack on Alisae, or I shot mastina knowing it'd fail for WIFOM.

For completeness, a kill on Kerset also explains the missing N2 kill, but I have no idea why anyone would have shot Kerset at that point.

[Jingle]

Hito, was the bulletproof BP for the next night or BP specifically for N2? It doesn't matter much, but it is an interesting distinction for setup spec.

Chem/Kers, can you confirm that your action order was voluntary? I assume it was, but I just want to make sure.

Flipped

1 Shot Strongman
2 Shot Roleblocker

Alien
1 Shot Friendly Neighbor
2x VT

Proven
Compulsive Inventor (Loved/Hated/N2BP)
Protective (2 Shot Doc?)
Targeting Role (TrackJoat)
Self-Blocking role (CommuteJoat)

Claimed
JOAT (FN/Commute/Visit)
JOAT (Track/Watch/Follow)
N2 Vig

Setup synergy seems to suggest that the JOATs are accurate claiming

Lets look at the setup if all of the PR claims are town.

1 Shot Strongman
2 Shot Roleblocker
???

JOAT (FN/Commute/Visit)
JOAT (Track/Watch/Follow)
N2 Vig
2x Doc
Alien
Loyal Neighborizor
4x VT

Rolecop isn't particularly helpful here, actually. That's a potential 2 clears N1. Doc/Vig/Alien are all antisynergy. Commute/Alien/Neighborizor/Roleblocker are all antisynergy. Scum get pretty much whatever N1 kill they want. Town has a pretty decent shot at just crushing N2 and on though. Using some pretty handwavy math we had a roughly 50% shot of mastina failing to clear a player N1, and she should never have gotten a guilty, period. Similarly, the FN was a similarly complete crapshoot (also, interestingly, not best used N1). That's still an insane amount of town power.

There's no reason for scum to have a protective in addition to a roleblocker if there's only one town shot period, so Klick is fullconftown in my eyes.

Kerset being scum commuter actually strengthens town, I think? I definitely don't think it solves anything. Kerset's actions are definitely the most questionable, but I don't think them being the scum really solves much.

Hito being scum explains mastina dying today at a surface level, but I don't think hitoscum kills mastina there. It puts a spotlight on him as the person who is most likely to know that mastina is vulnerable and there were just safer kills to make. Mastina was fullpocketed and there was an excuse for why she survives, but if he shoots Kers/Klick he can set up Chem/ofhrz/Kers/Klick to be lynchable and I think scum hito realizes that. It also makes complete sense for someone to assume mastina was gambiting with the BP, and I doubt anyone other than me in this list would have thought about the doc/BP interaction keeping the BP shield up on mastina. Fuck, even if I were scum here I probably would have shot mastina to remove the BP shield I thought was there.

Shadoweh/me has to have an insane role to balance this, I think. I can't think of anything that just outright does it. I also don't think Shadoweh plays the end of D1 the way shadoweh did as scum who was watching a policy lynch on the strongman partner. If she's scum here, she really got screwed by the rand.
Chem bussing Mena there is just... Ballsy AF. Maybe I should reread that, but I don't see it coming from scum the way hito presented it.

Ofhrz scumvig might solve the issue with balance? There's an awful lot of town protective power. If ofhrz is a scum vig or a second strongman, she could easily have intended to claim her kill coming into the day on the assumption that town had a shit ton of protective power.

I guess that leaves me at

Jingle/Klick
hito
Chem/Kers
Shadow
ofhrz

with Chem/Kers as reversible depending on whether I put more weight on mechanics or play.

Kers- walk us through your thoughts with your PR as fully as you can.

[Jingle]

Sorry about formatting, that's a pretty ugly brick of text.

[Jingle]

If everyone could poke teammates for thoughts on 2373 and 2359 that'd be super sexy.

[Jingle]

Right.



Pay no attention to Jingle behind the curtain. I am the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz!

[Jingle]

[Jingle]

I’d prefer a vote and unvote in consecutive posts, jic.

[Jingle]

UNVOTE:

[Jingle]

SS thinks Kers's claim blows, FL thinks Chem makes the most sense balance wise, which is roughly where I already was. SS says the ascetic claim with a commuter partner makes sense if he knew he was going down, and it definitely looks like he was resigned to going down. RCE agrees and says the WIFOM there is another good reason to claim ascetic when your partner is a high invest equity functional ascetic. Kerset commuting as last scum is another potential reason for the missing N2 kill.

I'll be leaving behind my WIFI for a couple of weeks later tonight, so will be mobile posting only from then on. I should still be able to participate, just with shorter posts.

[Jingle]

Hm.

[Jingle]

1 Shot Strongman
2 Shot Roleblocker
Multitasking Ninja Rolecop

JOAT (FN/Commute/Visit)
JOAT (Track/Watch/Follow)
N2 Vig
2 Shot Doc
2 Shot Alien
Loyal Neighborizor
3 Shot Inventor (Loved/BP/Hated)
3x VT

To clarify, this is your proposed Setup, Kers?

Why did you target jj D1? Why did you commute N2?

[Jingle]

Oh, hey, that's weird symmetry.

In the claims, there's 3 1 shot roles, 3 2 shot roles, and 3 three shot roles. If one of Chem/hito/Kers is scum, that's one of each type of role as scum.

Not sure that that actually means anything though, tbh.

[Jingle]

Eh. We need to pick 2 town in five names. We have a 60% chance of winning via rng right now.

[Jingle]

I can link ofhrz explanation if you want, btw.

[Jingle]

Use of commute on n1 was also out of question, because i wanted to clear myself with fn as soon as possible.

This is my issue with it, btw, not that jjh wasn’t a townread of yours. Surely you’re aware that clears get stronger the later they come.

Similarly, did jj strike you as the kind of player who would be likely to be alive at endgame if town? If so, why?

Why did you commute the night after a town pr outed? Did you think you were a valuable scumkill? If you were a high priority investigation, why not try to telegraph that you were uninvestigatable? Why were you concerned about specifically vigs when at the time there was no sign of a vig afaict?

[Jingle]

You said you were likely to be vigged, which overlaps entirely with the investigation pool.

Assuming instead that vig is likely, why try to stop the vig on yourself when it doesn’t actually make you more believable as town?

And yes, I’m going back with new information to try to understand your thought process, because that’s the only way to judge your actions at this point.

[Jingle]

They aren’t?

I’d suggest reisoing if you think that’s the case.

If you still have that problem, I can probably quote all of today’s subjective reads posts, but that’s a pain in the ass and I’m semi vla

[Jingle]

Huh, I thought my reasons to townread post was today. I guess if you don’t think asking about motivations isn’t mechanical then yeah, I’ve been playing mechanically since massclaim, chem.

@Kers: my plan as scum is to ask about motivations of a player who hito already wants to kill before me to live longer? Do you wanna explain that?

Also, what does your intentions being different coming into d2 have to do with your motivations n2? I want to know what you were thinking after both the jj and mena flips. If anything, I’d assume you’d have more recollection of your thoughts when your expectations were smashed.

[Jingle]

Probably you.

Lynching you doesn’t save me.

You explained why you thought you’d be likely to be vigged, but not why town you wants to stop that when you have no way to prove yourself town.

I think I’m okay with me kers in either order but SS is still asking questions in the team pt. Kerset is probably just it. He’s doing exactly what he’s accusing me of even though I’m pretty provably not doing it.

The more I think about it, the more I think ofhrz claim just makes sense as town here. The shitton of protectives and a vig fit with the theme of Negative synergy to balance. The three one shot roles fits design symmetry for the vig to be a true claim for town. Alisae doesn’t make sense as a scum kill at all.

Kers is hardcore shading all of me/ofhrz/shadow which coincidentally is the number of mislynches scum needs to win and his posting all rings of “How do I survive” not an actual desire to solve the game.

[Jingle]

But like, seriously, why does scumofhrz kill Ali? Ali is tunneled on bitmap and was the one to start bitmap as counter to Reundo again. Es basically a free mislynch.

Why does kers’s claimed motivation for using the commute match exactly the scum motivation for using a commute? “There might be a vig who shoots me” is not a town commuter thought process.

[Jingle]

kers is digging for any reason they can find to get ofhrz lynched, so they don't die.

Yup. It’s totally more reasonable that last scum ofhrz shoots the person tunneled on a mislynch who was themselves an obvious mislynch and commits to it N2 to make a shitty fakeclaim possible when shooting me or you makes the same fakeclaim possible without getting rid of a tvt fight. Not to mention Ali was like the last person who would’ve given mastina a bp, so any other other murky town shot would’ve been potentially better for scum by killing a powerful town role they knew existed. Before all of the claims. Then, ofhrz shoots mastina because really, they were actually a rolecop who knew that Hito only gave away a bp for the next night instead of a 1 shot bp or a full bp like mastina claimed. But she didn’t just shoot Hito with this knowledge instead of alisae because that would... not reduce the validity of the big claim in the slightest, Hito was under a ton of suspicion preclaim.

And this magical ballsy fakeclaim ends up showing perfect setup synergy.

Yeah... that’s not a thing. Ofhrz is klick level conftown.

[Jingle]

Bonus points: Kerset is arguing BOTH that ofhrz is fakeclaiming vig as scum and that they commuted to duck a vig kill, with the two of them having roughly the same information available. Faking a vig as scum when there is a vig is literally suicide but apparently at that point it was reasonable to assume there WAS a vig.

[Jingle]

I’m pretty excited to hear Kerset’s rebuttal. Not gonna lie.

[Jingle]

It’s totally more reasonable that last scum ofhrz shoots the person tunneled on a mislynch who was themselves an obvious mislynch and commits to it N2 to make a shitty fakeclaim possible when shooting me or you makes the same fakeclaim possible without getting rid of a tvt fight.

If he is scum then you make better tvt then ali for sure. If you deeply believe that he made correct vig kill then it means that he did a good job at selecting his target. Dead town is dead town, mastina was the only revealed PR at the time.

Not to mention Ali was like the last person who would’ve given mastina a bp, so any other other murky town shot would’ve been potentially better for scum by killing a powerful town role they knew existed.

Vest was revealed on day 3. Kill was made on n2. If you knew that "gift" is protection rather then any other power at this point, then good for you.

Then, ofhrz shoots mastina because really, they were actually a rolecop who knew that Hito only gave away a bp for the next night instead of a 1 shot bp or a full bp like mastina claimed. But she didn’t just shoot Hito with this knowledge instead of alisae because that would... not reduce the validity of the big claim in the slightest, Hito was under a ton of suspicion preclaim.

If you use rolecop on n2 then you get your info, after n2kill. It is useful only for n3 kill.

Bonus points: Kerset thought that this game has no VT and he was wrong. It appears that different people think in different ways. I don't know whenever vig exist or not but i suspect to be one. I had to commute on n2 or n3 anyway so odds were in favor.
The whole point of reading is to look at things from proper POV, which is thing that you for some reason can't do. You can't look at things from either different player or different point of time. That is why i am able to read well jjh or bitmap, when others are blinded by relations.

So... scum ofhrz chose not to shoot conftown mastina (who, as you just pointed out was not known to be bp) in order to make literally the worst scum kill in a game where he knows fuckall about towns power level other than it justified whatever the scumteam had to make arguably the worst scum kill. (Note, not a good vigkill but the worst scumkill. While it was a decent enough vigshot, that’s not what’s relevant here.) He did this to maybegambit a vig on alisae claim, again without much setup knowledge and with a flipped town protective role. And, in order to justify this ofhrz must be an at least 2 shot multitasking rolecop because she both rolecopped Hito night 2 AND killed alisae, and also didn’t rolecop any of the actual power in the game n1, including mastina who was softclaiming pr like crazy day one, because mena clearly had no idea what her role was.

That makes less sense than “Hito shot the bp he gave to mastina.” as a gambit. Your argument that “It’s good because it worked doesn’t make any fucking sense because no one would do that as scum.

If I got tracked to a kill on my partner in a mini and then won because there was no vig that wouldn’t be good play, that would be getting incredibly lucky after making an insanely bad play. No scum would make the choices you’re saying scum ofhrz made because they’re just bad choices. Your narrative is a way to justify an ofhrz scumread, not a legitimate ofhrz scumread.

Now respond to the whole, you’re accusing me of doing something you yourself are doing but which I’m not portion.

[Jingle]

Hito, Ali and msg mutually scumread each other until bitmaps death. Mastina spent several paragraphs talking about the likelihood of scumisae after e flipped.

Ali wasn’t obvtown by any metric.

Ofhrz, stop trying to gamethrow when I’m trying to solve. You want me lynched? Fine. Let me at least make the arguments for the person you presumably KNOW to be town to be excluded from the lynch pool before you flip me. If I’m wrong and kers is town, I’d at least like the chance to win by hitting the scum in shadow/chem instead of just losing to you being an asshat. Thanks.

[Jingle]

That is why i am able to read well jjh or bitmap, when others are blinded by relations.

This combination BoP and discredit attempt is pretty fucking hilarious regardless of your alignment, given that your “I read these two players accurately!” Is the n1 scumkill I sheeped onto the day one lynch and the d3 lynch who self destructed and self hammered, AND that I’m a player who has consistently claimed to be fairly shit at subjective reads.

“I’m clearly amazing because I was roughly on par with you in the element of the game you’re the worst at!”

Fucking lol.

[Jingle]

I'm pretty happy with Kerset > Jingle > Shadow as a solve, to be honest.

I still want a couple of days to decide between shadow/chem, but yeah I think that’s fine with me too.

Kers, assuming both of us flip town who is your third?

[Jingle]

Actually, if we’re committing to that I think I prefer me -> shadow -> kers as the order, as a play around to ofhrz being an sk and so I don’t have to use as much data. If she is sk, I think kers is probably town by balance so the last scum would have to be in me/Shadoweh.

Also worth noting, if town has the chance to kingmake scum or sk, they should kingmake sk so fewer teams are ahead of them in breakers.

[Jingle]

Yeah, I don’t think there is an sk. But if we’re going to lynch those three players anyway since we know town has used its prs and the nk is literally “which conftown do i shoot?” the order should be in likelihood to play around the sk first.

[Jingle]

If you think that it’s more likely there’s an SK than me being scum go with Jingle’s order

Otherwise go with Klick’s

I don’t see how klicks order plays around you scum.

[Jingle]

Kers, assuming both of us flip town who is your third?

Ofrhz is my first. If we both flip town after that then this game is over.

Ofhrz makes less sense as scum than Hito, we’re not lynching her.

[Jingle]

If I’m in an F3 with you or Shadoweh evaluation is necessary

No it isn’t. We can reasonably assume the nightkills using the ‘clears’ we’re working out right now. None of our prs get more information. This functionally IS the last day of the game, where we pick the people in the POE pool who endgame.

Deviation from that list outside of scum shooting in the people we’d lynch anyway is not acceptable.

The only reason we’d have cause to reevaluate is if town lied about their powers or scum decided to give us free additional mislynches.

[Jingle]

I'm pretty happy with Kerset > Jingle > Shadow as a solve, to be honest.

Tell me about ofrhz.

Actually, I’m going to throw this back at you. Why are you so sure about ofhrz scum?

[Jingle]

Not really?

That’s the logic that leads to hero shooting.

We have the information now that you’d have if it got to F3. You just have to assume the first two lynches are town and you’re literally there.

If you go off script because you didn’t actually get new info and then lose me this game I’m going to be pissed, so do whatever reevaluating you want when there are 4 more town players to provide insight.

[Jingle]

Ofrhz has claim perfectly tailored for scum. Novice explains, why he couldn't shoot on n1. Lack of other bullets means that we can't challenge his claim. During this time we killed two scum players. With last scum left at this early stage the most likely scenario would be that solo tires to make some sort of gamble. There are no rewards for being defeated later on, so scum would only aim for win or lose. He confirmed that there are no vig kills on n1 and n2 so the odds for no vig were high enough to go for it. Perhaps he had shot of redirect to prevent CC, if he did then give me a cookie after this game.
During n2 we knew that mastina is proven town but there was flipped strongman, so some kind of protection was extremely likely. That is kind logic that jingle would never come up with so the options are: double kill, jingle misplay or fake vig kill.
If we drop the idea scum power is redirect (which i don't insist on) and take pure rolecop (which explains mastinas death). N1 target is likely to be mastina. Mena obviously didn't know about masti role, which suggest that his partner was AFK at this time. This also points at ofrhz.
514, 591, 592, 765, 1040, 1227, 1682, 2115, 2322. If you look at ofr progression against bitmap you will see that he always had him low but never sr him. However he was fine with using his teammate reads just for sake of killing alisae (his former townlean). Aside of it bitmap remains as not worth defending.

Mena who knows his scum buddy has a rolecop result doesn’t wait to respond to the guilty? Why?

[Jingle]

Also, jjh was a flipped protective role, a redirector doesn’t help you to dodge a vig cc when there’s a bunch of mislynches left as last scum, and sheeping nsg is par for the course for just about everyone. Further, saying she’s scum because she listened to someone who turns out to have been town on who to shoot is baffling.

So basically, your case on ofhrz is she gambited (which is a shitty argument, because at best that’s a reason not to townread her and I’ve put forward a crapton of setup spec evidence about why that role makes sense as town in this setup) and she didn’t hard defend bitmap. Please reference the player list for people who didn’t hard defend bitmap, before realizing wking is a scumtell in the first place.

[Jingle]

bc he posted right before mastina called him out. He had to claim instantly. Do you even look at this game?

Sure. And if he had no way of knowing what her role was, panicking and jumping the gun makes sense. If he

knows

he just has to wait to be guaranteed the right answer it doesn’t. At all.

[Jingle]

That literally makes no sense because I’m the only lynchable player outside of the lynch order

Let me put it this way: if you reevaluate in a 3p LYLO of Kers/ofhrz/you, the entire loss will rest solely on your shoulders should Kerset be scum. You would have let LITERALLY EVERY TOWN player down. And you’re outright saying right now that you want to reevaluate and potentially lynch someone all of the flipped town who die from here on agree is unlynchable should it come down to a 3p LYLO.

Do whatever reevaluating you want to do today, because you’ve pretty much guaranteed yourself to be in final 3 with this line of asinine stupid.

[Jingle]

Kerset refusing to acknowledge how completely unlikely this ofhrz gambit is is making me more and more sure kers is scum.

[Jingle]

Like, yes, Klick could be a multitasking mafia doctor who gambited by claiming to heal mastina and then killing her the next night and then chose to use her power to heal a townie in case she was targeted by a follower.

But making the argument that that is likely to be what happened is fucking stupid. Just like the argument that ofhrz performed a really bad nightkill to setup a maybe vig fakeclaim with very little setup knowledge and then stumbled into a successful kill on a supposedly protected player as a redirector OR had a multitasking rolecop specifically on N2, all while Mena panicked when guiltied with a goddamn rolecop on his team who should obviously have been on the person guiltying him.

Also, ofhrz is a higher priority lynch to Kerset than me, who apparently is obviously scummy for trying to get someone already before me in the lynch preferences of the towniest players by consensus lynched in order to keep myself alive somehow that still hasn’t been explained at all while Kers spent the first half of the day trying to get the lynch pool to contain the three people other than himself who were most lynchable to be the lynch order instead of trying to solve the game.

[Jingle]

Yes. And you’re saying that the risk reward for continuing to wait and being slightly scummy for it vs getting the info to not be guessing blindly at what the guilty is reasonable. My argument is that mena who knows he can correctly counterclaim the guilty is much calmer there. He didn’t get lynched because of the guilty. He got lynched because he panicked. JJ’s flip explained the guilty fully.

[Jingle]

First of all, I’m on a cell phone with no WiFi, so I’m limiting my fact checking both because it’s a pain in the ass and because it eats my data.

Second of all, personal attacks and toxicity are the weapons of people who can’t rely on logic, so if someone’s intelligence is to be called into question maybe it shouldn’t be the one using logic.

Third of all, why haven’t you explained how trying to sort people who were already higher than me on the lynch order is going to keep me alive, yet, despite the fact I’ve asked multiple times since before the ofhrz towncase even occurred to me?

Fourth, eat a big ole bag of dicks and fuck right the hell off with your wholly undeserved holier than thou attitude when I’d you are town the whole summation of your impact this game is failing miserably at using your night actions, convincing anyone of anything, or being remotely useful.

[Jingle]

That was @kers, not chem btw.

[Jingle]

I’ve been listening to Kerset calling me dumb for days, and I’m not a huge fucking fan. It’s unnecessary and uncalled for, and I’m done putting up with it.

[Jingle]

I’m not sure if you meant to do this but congrats you hit a nerve so I’m dropping this argument

I’m sorry if you were offended btw, but I read your post as “I might not lynch Jingles only strong scumread over an obvious town player in LYLO.”

I’m 100% going to nip that in the bud if I can. Kerset gets lynched this game. Full stop. I don’t care if the lylo is you Kerset ofhrz or you Kerset shadow or you Kerset someone who isn’t even on the playerlist. Kerset dies.

[Jingle]

Chemist confirmed only that klick used a protective power night 3.

Similarly, you claimed JOAT yourself, with a commute shot. Who is to say that your other shots are FN and visit? The dead guy you fn-d N1 who died that same night?

I’m not arguing that lynching you ensures my death or that we’re lovers. I’m arguing that lynching you, if you’re town, does nothing to stop my own lynch later on.

And yes, mastina was a very obvious N1 rolecop choice.

I need to consider the one salient point you brought up by accident which might make you town, though. It makes no more sense for you to have shot mastina than ofhrz.

[Jingle]

@mod: if you can answer: do you publish role results for scum in their PT? Are mafia this game multitasking by default?

[Jingle]

Klick scum conceits: unlikely kill on mastina, mafia protective with only 1shot vig for town - unlikely.

Ofhrz scum conceits: unlikely kill on mastina, alisae kill over any other kill N2, 4 town protectives for just the scumkill - unlikely.

Kerset scum conceits: unlikely kill on mastina, commute over kill n2.

Hito scum conceits: gave bp to mastina instead of mena when neither was likely to be shot.

Chem scum conceits: unlikely mastina kill, knows action failed on kers n2, corroborated klick claim n3. Around for mena guilty, didn’t share that mena wasn’t successfully targeted by mastina.

Jingle/Shadoweh: setup balance.

I suppose for due diligence I should

@mod: would a failed loyal action show up to a watcher?

But I think I’ve arrived all the way back at me -> shadow -> Hito being the order.

[Jingle]

What did scum lose by attempting mastina kill, actually? Potentially shifting to evens instead of odds?

[Jingle]

Chem
Klick
Kers
Ofhrz
Hito
Shadoweh

That’s roughly where I’m left with role info, btw.

[Jingle]

Right, klick didn’t kill and did protect, so she’s more confirmed than chem again. I’d forgotten that.

I don’t think the mastina kill is clearing for anyone past that point because I realized that post massclaim scum has nothing to lose by shooting a potentially bp mastina when town has no remaining power to take us off of evens. This realization happened in 2500.

Hito bping mastina doesn’t actually give much towncred, because at that point it would be ridiculous for mena to be vigkilled. I should reevaluate the presumed no kill there (I don’t believe Kerset was shot n2) to see if that’s an argument for Hito town.

Ofhrzs role not existing doesn’t make sense to me with 4 protections and a strongman in the setup.

Similarly Kerset commuting instead of killing only makes sense if she is compulsive commute as scum, but that’s a really weird nerf to give a scumteam.

Shadoweh isn’t cleared by role because I don’t know what the fuck the scumteam could have here.

I think I need to step away and let other people think about this for the time being, because I’m clearly conf boasting myself somewhere, but I think there’s good arguments against literally every potential scum in this game. At this point I think I’m 100% solid in klick and chem and that’s it.

[Jingle]

Ninja doesn’t explain Kerset. Chem specifies a failed action.

Either chemist was roleblocked, which is :/, Kerset commuted instead of killing, which is dumb, or Kerset is town.

[Jingle]

No? Commuter explicitly cannot perform actions while commuting.

I suppose there could be a variant role that is ascetic for a night, but the setup has given no indications of variant roles other than hito’s.

[Jingle]

Commuter is no actions can be taken by or targeting them. It also is the only normal role that stops strongman kills.

[Jingle]

That’s possible, but again, compulsive scum commuter is weird design wise.

Also, as a scumrole with a partner down why don’t you get the commute out of the way while your other partner is still alive and able to kill?

It’s not impossible, just very unlikely, but Occam’s razor says go for the simple answer in all that.

[Jingle]

I can snow mastina if I need to. I tend not to, I usually kill her if SvT, but I’m more reliable at reading her than she is at reading me.

It’s also been a long time since we were SvT in either direction.

Where did Maria get her information?

[Jingle]

For the record, I would totally have killed jjh as scum, but would never have had Reundo claim VT and would never have had the interactions with mena that I had.

[Jingle]

Fuckit.

VOTE: Shadoweh

[Jingle]

Please be better then this. You have not once stated a reason you think I'm scum, today yesterday or ever. Get your head out of your mechanics butt and actually play the game.

I have, in fact, stated the opposite. However, your post, the rest of the one I’m quoting, IS my reason for voting you.

Of the people alive, Kerset is scummiest by a metric of “playing to a scum win condition.”

Chem/Kers/Klick are all strong enough town by roles and interactions that I’m just okay losing to any of them at this point if I’m wrong.

I can squint and see a world with Hito scum in it, but again, if Hito is scum with the forethought to BP mastina and who attempted to kill Ali/Kers/No One he probably deserves the win.

Ofhrz claim fits the setup and is by no means a natural scum claim. If there are 4 town protectives, a follower to confirm they exist, and no second killing role, then I’ll be truly shocked, but it’s not a hill I’m willing to die on anymore. What’s more, I don’t think I can successfully argue having Hito replace ofhrz in the lynch pool when I don’t really believe it’s either of them. I suppose I could vote ofhrz to mollify Kerset, but she’s getting lynched before endgame anyway.

Where does that leave me? You and me. Most of my townread on you is based on two things: a lack of impact in what was admittedly an egocentric clash on D1 and a vaguely unsettling concern that town has too much power. I have less faith in the former than any of my other reasons to townread someone, and there are two obvious answers to the latter. Either I’m missing a piece of the puzzle or whoever balanced the setup and I don’t see eye to eye. Both are possible.

As in that old Holmesian saying, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth.

[Jingle]

For the record, if I wanted to fabricate a case on shadow, I could. There are enough minor inconsistencies I could pick at. Maria’s experience with me and mastina for example is pretty much guaranteed to be misremembered because the truth is that me and mastina don’t actually play together that often. She’s in a lot of my modded/reviewed games and I’ve backup modded for her, but without double checking I think we’ve played together 5 times in the last two years. Once S/S, once S/T where I defended scum mastina because she was clearing townies, once as T/S where I had her so deep in my pocket I don’t think she saw daylight, and twice as T/T where we correctly tr each other. One of those TvT games I had ETL as a hydra partner and she’s Nancy levels of obvtown to people who know her well.

This isn’t actually scum indicative though, because it’s not a lie that really gains her anything. She probably just got that impression from my thoughts on why I gave bodyguard to mastina in alipine.

I could point out the lazy and opportunistic lynch pool of ofhrz/me/Kers but let’s be honest here: there’s a reason that’s the lazy lynch pool and I wouldn’t expect anything else from her.

Hell, I even agree with her wrt role call. That was a game where the scumteam was me/shadow/shadows teammates and it was a very different play style from this one. She feels different. I just don’t put as much weight on that as I do on all of the other tangible evidence in the thread.

[Jingle]

Am I the only one who read hitos post and was like... why is Hito sheeping dead scum that got replaced?

[Jingle]

Is there any proof that hito is aware what his talisman does? I was looking at the order of events and it seems that each receiver claimed talisman effects before hito said anything about it.

Not really but that’s an even weirder set of circumstances than forced scum commuter. He accidentally gave the positive utility to the townread and the negative utility to the scumread and saved the confirmable one for last? That’s super unlikely. If Hito is scum he knew exactly what he was doing.

[Jingle]

I just think your solve is giving you mental damage Jingle, especially when you're jamming your own lynch in there. My team puts a lot of stock in you being town so it bothers me that you might be okay with laying down and dying. This game isn't solved and we can't afford to just let things happen. Besides, even if we're horribly wrong it probably will help more to have two mechanical roles verified rather then seeing two VT flips in a row.

If Kerset is scum one of the following is the truth:

Kerset is a compulsive scum commuter who did not immediately use the shot after the first buddy lynch.

Kerset is a non compulsive scum commuter who chose to commute instead of kill after back to back scum lynches.

Kerset is a third blocking role who targeted chem on n2.

All of those are incredibly unlikely. Kerset is town. (As painful as that sentence is.)

[Jingle]

1 shot ascetic makes less sense than commuter from the standpoint of scum utility.

I doubt that ofhrz is scum with a vig, let alone one who is capable of killing twice in one night by themselves. That’s an insane amount of scum power and combining that with a strongman and a roleblock would be overkill for the amount of town power. By a lot. If she’s scum she almost certainly shot Ali instead of mastina.

[Jingle]

Ali kill only makes sense from ofhrz regardless of her alignment.

Missing a kill on mastina is far more likely from everyone. Hito killing alisae, Kerset, or no killing are all possible, but of the three the no kill gambit is the most likely imo.

[Jingle]

I guess, why does x-shot ascetic make less sense than commuter for scum utility? It seems a little better than commuter (because you can kill), for a scum team that you think was a little weak.

Kers scum means ofhrz town and ascetic doesn’t stop bullets, but does stop the things that stop bullets. It also still doesn’t change the guilty from mastina’s role.

Commuter on a scumteam implies town killing power, ascetic doesn’t. If Kerset is scum, there is necessarily town killing power.

[Jingle]

Sup jingle, are there reasons why I should be townreading you aside from Menalque claiming something dumb

Reundo claiming vt, mena dancing around me because he was going to flip scum in another game, my play, the fact that I’m firmly in the PoE and thus get lynched before endgame anyway, and the fact that instead of trying to find ways to survive I’ve been looking for people who can be removed from the lynch pool literally all day.

It really doesn’t matter though, because my scumgame is either strong enough or perceived to be strong enough that I’m in the PoE here regardless.

[Jingle]

@chem- ofhrz reasons

Spoiler:

VT claims came after all PR claims and after alisae validated VT existence (locking them out of options to claim without overlapping).

That's not true btw, I claimed before Jingle/Klick/Bitmap. Jingle also claimed before Klick and Bitmap.

I would like to hear from ofrhz why she vigged Alisae in the first place? Ali did not seem like a suspicious slot after e pushed for the Renudo lynch so hard and looking through your iso you didn't seem to think Alisae was very scummy, so its a question that's been bothering me.

I thought about e’s push on reundo but two things made me think e was scum in spite of that:
- e jumped off reundo for the bitmap wagon
- and voted Reundo because e thought reundo was going to flip town which didn’t really make sense to me

The most important factor was probably because I felt strongly about the bitmap slot being town after the d2 flip and nsg was scumreading e for like the same reasons that had me put alisae low on my tier list to begin with.

What did you think about jjh/mastinas reads? I mean, whatever degree the flip made you feel better about Bitmap-town, surely you felt even more better about mastina town from D2, right?

You gotta pick who you sheep man

Me picking to sheep NSG over the other two isn’t a dig at jjh or mastina’s read accuracy - I think nsg’s reads are better than anyone else’s on site

and after all, I’m town so someone else being likely town isn’t a reason for me to value their reads more than my own unless I know they have a history of being noticeably better than average

I think mastina’s reads can be good, but her metrics for calibrating reads are certainly different from mine. I haven’t played with jjh town before

This just isn't true at all. I started Bitmap, jjh/Alisae/mastina came over because of me, and then Alisae re-defected back to reundo because menal argued eir back on it. Alisae was pretty strongly town from that interaction and would have been a real stretch as a mislynch, especially with mastina/myself still alive.

Though you raise a good point w/r/t my rolecop theory that I'm probably a more sensible kill for scum-masquerading-as-vig than Alisae if I got copped N1. So I should probably lower that prior downward.

I don’t really think alisae jumping back there makes e town. We knew scum bussed by end of d2

If it makes you feel better, I did think about vigging you for a hot second because of that last minute diversion wagon away from Reundo

But you had some interactions with mena that I didnt think were svs. and again, scum were bussing

TLDR didn’t think Ali’s reundo vote precluded bussing, sheeping nsg scumpool.

[Jingle]

Sweet vindication.

Now if only I had kept that opinion.

VOTE: shadoweh

I don’t think this changes literally anything, tbh.

[Jingle]

I think that jingle is pick for today but we can talk this though.

My only response to that is why does scum Jingle try so hard to figure out who can safely be excluded from the lynch order.

[Jingle]

Or, for that matter, kill klick.

[Jingle]

Right. I was definitely trying to take potential lynches out of the PoE pool that was already tight to make myself look town.

Klick is the one conftown who was reading me as town the strongest. Killing her makes the game more difficult when it’s already an uphill battle. Killing anyone else out of the town pool (like say chem) makes way more sense for scum me.

[Jingle]

SS wants me to yell at the peeps on the ofhrz wagon for speedlynching. I’m... not really in agreement because we’re stalled out as fuck.

[Jingle]

Hi, we’ve learned nothing in 48 hours bye.

[Jingle]

N2 was preprotective claims post alien and post mena flip? Definitely mastina.

[Jingle]

Chemist did claim to have a role with results on d2. Perhaps mastina was attacked because scum expected protection to be on chem.

If true, a chem kill would have made sense, but a chem kill is also impossible because why would he survive?

Of:

Mastina
Alisae
Kerset
No Kill

mastina easily makes the most sense.

Bitmap/Kerset/Ali/Hito/shadoweh all make no sense. No kill is similarly bizarre. Klick would make sense from someone looking to dodge a protective, but that didn’t happen. Me/chem/ofhrz would have made sense from someone pr hunting, but that’s not what happened. So we can logically assume that mastina was the kill.

[Jingle]

Hey guys, remember that time I voted shadoweh and then a week later the game was stalled out with no new information? Good times. Good times.

[Jingle]

I think that only you saw that, tbh, and you repeatedly bringing it up as an explanation when it points mostly to you anyway means you’re still probably town, so...

Like, I had this conversation with FL when he asked why you weren’t scum a while ago.

[Jingle]

Oh. Interesting.

Why did you believe menas claim kers?

[Jingle]

So you thought there was a world where mena was a asceticizer that could self target and also a 1 shot vig and also you could commute?

It didn’t occur that he was literally claiming your role?

[Jingle]

I mean... thinking I’m mafia here is really dumb, but I also don’t see anyone outside of me shadoweh ever getting lynched and I’d love to be able to stop putting any focus on this game, so...

Can we get on with it?

[Jingle]

Lynch shadow tomorrow. Despite her shit tier play Kerset is still probably just town.

[Jingle]

are you interested in self-hammering?

Ngl, I almost did.

But no. I’ve only ever selfhammered to the best of my knowledge once and it should have won my scumteam the game. I’m not breaking that streak because I think the rest of the game was decided yesterday.

[Jingle]

V/LA 3 days

[Jingle]

Also, as an open forum question...do we really think Shadoweh or Jingle kill jjh?

Yes? Jj was a strong obvtown voice. Who wouldn’t want to kill him?

[Jingle]

meta read

Shadow in rolecall was part of a hydra. She disappeared once or twice but was pretty much in control itt despite it. She also caught a couple interactions that helped our D3 autowin become reality. I know she has a rep as solid scum but can’t recall any other individual games I’ve seen, except Stellaris. Does that help?

[Jingle]

Cry a little inside that we didn't lynch shadoweh today. hbu?

[Jingle]

yes, i'm still here

Who do you think is scum PP?

[Jingle]

What thoughts? Objectively, I think Kerset is the scummiest by play. I think mechanically anyone who isn’t shadoweh here would have to have made bafflingly bad choices to be scum. Therefore I think we should lynch shadoweh.

I’ve argued why I am town several times and no one engaged at any point, but I’m not going to waste my time beating dead horses when I don’t think those horses are stuffed with candy. Lynch me and then lynch shadoweh has the same result as lynch shadoweh then lynch me, and I don’t give a fuck which you guys choose.

As far as Shadoweh putting up a meh defense of Bitmap, how the fuck is that AI at all?

[Jingle]

I'm pretty happy with Kerset > Jingle > Shadow as a solve, to be honest.

Yep. Klick wanted to lynch you over me and was actually listening when I talked. Compare: Chemist wanted to lynch me and engaged with me approximately 0%.

I had an uphill battle either way, but killing Chem was by far more likely to result in a Jingle scumwin.

Also, actively defending ofhrz in a situation where doing so put me in the alwayslynch pool is very different from defending bitmap when the PoE solidly included Klick and you. But it's cool, I get that you're going to ignore the reasons I'm town regardless of your alignment.

[Jingle]

Chemist was even more pro Shadoweh than Klick? I would have killed Chem over Klick. Shadoweh has literally no reason to Klick to Chem.

It's a comparative condition, you have to consider both parties.

[Jingle]

I’m pleasantly surprised that I’m not being instavoted. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but why I am I not being instavoted, chem?

[Jingle]

Both of the teammates who are reading my game are telling me it's Kerset. I need to consider a thing, but I'm probably just gonna drop that vote.

[Jingle]

Alright, Kerset lost the Open, won White Flag, and Fark flipped town in the Large. Chem team is one game won with the Open and flipped scum in the normal.

Both Mena and Reundo are no wins atm and thus mostly a non issue.

I vaguely want to stall the game state here a few IRL days.

[Jingle]

No. I’m looking to see if losing to one or the other of you puts my team in a better or worse overall position for the event. I think you are more likely scum than chem, but if lynching one of you as town doesn’t hurt our overall chances and lynching the other does, I’m going to lean towards “can win the event” over “lose the event to potentially win the game.”

[Jingle]

Just play towards wincon, we won't outrun large anyway (especially that i don't believe in your explanation).

I'm not thinking about the large here, as given the nature of tiebreakers losing the large functionally means you're out of the running for event win anyway.

[Jingle]

I know, I'm looking for the goddamn announcements page to look up team comp, but got lost in the scummies.

[Jingle]

Team List

cancel food	the worst	enter	ankamius	dannfloor
The Marauders	Titus	Vorkuta	BBmolla Joan of Arc	Dr Easy Bake
Wild Cards	Flavor Leaf	Jingle	RCEngima	Something_Smart
Busboy Revolution	davesaz	Formerfish	Elsa Jay	Reundo Gamma Emerald
Quick Attack	popsofctown	CheekyTeeky wgeurts	Alisae	chennisden
Doomsday	panthaleon Vex Vience	okapoka	chemist1422	Saudade tris
Derp Wolves	Nancy Drew 39	Auro	Aristophanes	Creature Volxen
SubOptimal Math	Iconeum	Espeonage	nomnomnom	DrDoolittle
Ripple's Krazy Mistress Dunn	MariaR	unwnd Krazy	Shadoweh	Dunnstral
Old Hat	hitogoroshi	Gammagooey	KittyMo	shos Plum
The Lit Torches	Cephrir	Klick	DeasVail	Bellaphant
The Four Horseman	Pine	kuribo	Xtoxm	mastina
Bird That Carries You Over A Disproportionately Small Gap	RadiantCowbells	northsidegal	Firebringer GuyInFreezer	Bitmap
Team "Team" Team	Hopkirk	Hectic	Elements	Flopz Thilbert
Tea Gathering Club	Volpe14	Ofrhz	Pisskop	teacher
Newb Kids on the Block	gobbledygook	Menalque	bob3141	EspressoPatronum
You Over A Disproportionately Small Gap	skitter30	Amrun	Almost50	jjh927
DFKN	Farkran	Dongempire	Kerset	NaCl

Posting this here so I don't have to keep looking for it.

[Jingle]

So, objectively Doomsday is 2-0 and DFKN is 1-1.

I'm 1-1. If I vote and lose I'll be out of the running fully, so I kinda just have to get this right. Great.

Why couldn't RCE have won the Normal? Sigh.


Kerset what was Farkran's progression on me over the last month or so roughly? Particularly, did his opinion change significantly at some point in January?

[Jingle]

Y'know what.

VOTE: Kerset

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I don't see scumChem putting the nail in Mena's coffin as likely, I don't see Kerset commuter being okay with a self asceticizing vig claim and I don't see any reason not to trust what my gut and both active teammates are telling me.

[Jingle]

Cool. Chemconftown. That's nice.

[Jingle]

it can't count as breaking ongoing game rules if the other game has already ended right

True.

[Jingle]

I don't see Kerset commuter being okay with a self asceticizing vig claim and I don't see any reason not to trust what my gut and both active teammates are telling me.

We know that Kerset had an action failed against him on N2. That's the sole reason to think he's town.

The reasons to think he's scum are:

He attempted and succeeded to widen the lynch pool to include ofhrz while I was arguing hard to have a lynch pool of Shadoweh/Jingle/Kerset which would objectively win the game for town.

His reaction to scum claiming a role that was functionally the same as the role he had after a guilty on the same scum and that scum claimed vig was essentially "Well, okay then."

His play has been scummy as fuck for the entire game.

[Jingle]

Not really,

Farkran had no second thoughts about me in the wake of monumentally misreading me and lynching me in Cult D3?

[Jingle]

I can see that jingle as scum pretends that he can't afford internet data but you just refuse to use it.

This is an accusation of actual cheating, so go right ahead and fuck off.

I have not nor will I ever lie about RL across games in an attempt to gain an advantage in one, and your team KNOWS THIS. Regardless of the fact that you're scum in this game, this is dangerously close to a personal attack and one I will not hesitate to report if you persist.

[Jingle]

We know that Kerset had an action failed against him on N2. That's the sole reason to think he's town.

To clarify, he had Chem's action fail against him on N2 while a kill went missing and claimed he was a commuter. The missing kill is explained only via a crosskill on Ali (which would be dumb) or a protect on the mastina slot that had just successfully guiltied Mena. (Or a compulsive scum commute, which is pretty bonkers, tbh.)

I lost a lot of my suspicion on Kerset because letting his partner claim his role badly or not using the compulsive commute the night he lost his first partner instead of letting stop his ability to kill would both be bafflingly bad play, but I have to just realize that Kerset played very poorly this game. It is also possible that Kerset is a 1 shot ascetic as his other claimed JOAT shots are 1 shot visitor and Friendly Neighbor, which was conveniently used on the obvious N1 kill choice.

[Jingle]

RCE says Kerset is reaching and the BP wasn’t even mentioned until 2101 (or thereabouts).

Not sure what he’s responding to yet.

[Jingle]

Not really,

Farkran had no second thoughts about me in the wake of monumentally misreading me and lynching me in Cult D3?

he says that it has nothing to do with this game, he mislynched you because of shos, not because you were scummy

Bullshit:

Hm. If i believe poyzin, and i think i do unless a counterclaim pops up, what does this mean for the others?

Shos, tmi or genuine townread? (Wrt poyzin i mean)
I don't know.

Kanna, same as shos... but i can't read kanna as scum today, it's beyond me.

BS, pocketing me? Maybe. Re-reading his ISO i think that his logic around hammering and VCA in his wagon (post 224) made sense though, and it's similar to how i would act (and have acted in the past) as town.

Hectic and OS are unchanged from this development i guess

Bingle and korina are going to fall greatly from my grace. Maybe bingle deserves more credit to his scumrange and i may have been fooled by good logic and agreement bias?

Adjusting my lynchpool to {bingle > shos > BS = korina} in that specific order

VOTE: bingle

He was tunneled on me before shos tried to confirm me as the cult leader.

[Jingle]

I found all scum by the end of day 1 (reundo slot was afk by the time of my readlist, i found him at the end) and only got confused about ofrhz. I am the top solver in this game.

Bullshit:

That list contains one flipped scum who you never seriously pushed and 4 town. Furthermore, I was contending that I was townreading you because in order to be scum you'd have to have been playing badly, which has absolutely nothing to do with reads accuracy in the first place given scum know who their teammates are.

Possibly more importantly, show the class where you explained the scumread on Mena. Or pushed him. At all.

I'll save you the work:

Spoiler:

Mena and jingle are like school bullies, who bully bitmap because he has famous relative. It feels like excuse to make a push rather then accurate one.

The fuck are people voting ofhrz for

The reason is on the same posts. I don't like this post.

When you’re done catching up, could I get a quick readslist so I can see where you are?

Kerset
Bitmap
Chemist1422
Alisae

jjh927
Klick
Shadoweh
Gamma Emerald
mastina

Menalque
Jingle
hitogoroshi
ofrhz
Lady Ann

Spoiler:

When you’re done catching up, could I get a quick readslist so I can see where you are?

Kerset
Bitmap
Chemist1422
Alisae

jjh927
Klick
Shadoweh
Gamma Emerald
mastina

Menalque
Jingle
hitogoroshi
ofrhz
Lady Ann

did your team contribute to this at all?

Yea Farkran gave some insight about bitmap, ofrhz and menalque

Yea Farkran gave some insight about bitmap, ofrhz and menalque

What were farkran’s thoughts?

He is scumreading you because he didn't like your bad push on me also fark is still salty, because he was hard townreading ofrhz when he was scum in the Normal game you played together
Do you want to hear about other as well?

why not sheep me on it?

because I’m not locktowning you and it defeats the purpose of putting in a ton of effort if I throw it away to sheep someone

I'm not saying sheep me forever

I'm just saying give a bro a hand in getting a wagon going if you don't think your vote is doing anything that useful on ofhrz rn

Appeal to emotion, isn't it?

Obviously I am biased but like, this is a really terrible post right? Bitmap vs. mastina is the fire at the heart of things, and Shadoweh has the soft condemn of "I think we should ignore it" and at least kinda-sorta implying it's TVT - but without hard comitting to a TR on either one, reaching out to one side or the other, trying to peel voters off their wagons (if no one likes me, that should be pretty doable!), whatever.

Could you compare shadow and menalque? They both didn't make hard stance or peel voters as you describe. Mena made light push in 776 and keep his vote on lurker. One is your main (or one of main) townread and the other your main scumread.
Btw i wouldn't scumread neither of them with your methods

If you look at hito, he was able to apply his methods to both Mena and Shadow, because he is unsure about alignments and check every person with them. When jjh was analyzing each person around here, he picked person and then found faulty.

Also @jjh what’s the long and short on why you TR mastina and scumread kerset and bitmap?

Do you have no support from your team? Like we are in TM and you act like null info guy. Do you actually don't know or are you trying to find place for yourself to fit.

Spoiler:

Do this but just for my slot

You're in luck--I'm in the same mindset I was when I listed you as a townread!

That is to say, rather notably tired.

This mindset isn't the most productive to explaining things but it's the only mindset I can be in to explain the read since it was a read born of this mindset.

Basically I didn't intentionally have you as deliberately-unsorted, but I noticed that I wasn't making any effort to really sort you.
In my bout of tiredness, when catching up on the game and reading your posts around that time and the ones from shortly before then that were fresh on mind even though I had read them, I basically liked what I was seeing you do in spite of having the knowledge that I probably shouldn't but the gut-townread from what I was seeing was still there all the same.

Your contributions to this game just look town, mostly. Are they? Ehhh...probably not, it wouldn't surprise me if the people who actually know how to read you well would say you've done nothing that is strongly alignment indicative. And not gonna lie some of your earlier posting did look suspicious but in the very-brief "I am scumreading everyone in this game" sort of way where I realize I'm basically not townreading anyone and force a reset of standards to 'okay reset them to null then just work from there'. But the posting around the time I posted the townread on you was posting that I liked the mindset behind of as being something that it looked like it was genuinely trying to solve the game in.

you mean this right? why is this scum!indicative for mastina?

Also @jjh what’s the long and short on why you TR mastina and scumread kerset and bitmap?

Shadoweh Chemist Mena Kerset Bitmap
Hito Klick
GE jjh ofhrz
mastina jingle

this is pretty close to my list

I'd swap Kerset and klick and probably ofrhz and jingle

Let’s start here

separating it into 5 tiers gives something like
{Chemist, Ali, Shadoweh, Klick}
{Mena, Kerset, Bit}
{Hito, jjh, jingle}
{GE (Reundo), mastina}
{ofrhz}

this is what I’m gonna start working from with the top line being the only confident ones

Okay so like why is she in the tier below mastina and reundo?

{Mena Hito Shadoweh mastina jjh Klick}
{Chemiboi, Jingle}
{ofhrz}
{Reundo}
{Kerset, Bitmap}

Wait I thought you were SRing mastina? Also why is klick up at top and chemboi isn’t?

Bitmap what are your reads atm?

Like my own personal reads?

Yes

[bitmap]
[Kerset, Klick, Shadoweh]
[Reundo, Jingle, ofrhz, Mena, Alisae, Chemist] <- Null
[hito, jj]
[mastina]

I’m p sure I’ve seen something about the mastina and jjh thing in your iso

Can you explain why your town reads are up out of null for me?

Mena you took your time to gather thoughts about mastina but never gave option about her. She was relevant enough to be topic of discussion but not for option. Why did you skip it?

Mena if you are vig then kill mastina. As ascetic there is no way, you get blocked so result will be legit.

That's every mention through the guilty, including the one where he believes that Mena is an ascetic vig. Notice: not one vote. Not one serious push. A couple instances of "I wouldn't scumread mena for that."

[Jingle]

I don't know whenever this is clear by now or not but mena in fact slipped Jingle. Look mena rolled scum in gun and roses and he knew he was scum in this game, so he was being quiet because he didn't want his scumbuddy in this game (Jingle) to catch him in the other game because of his interactions in this one. This is something that happens only if he's scum with Jingle as if he's scum with town Jingle then he doesn't need to be worried about it. Because he's the same in both games the only cases where it matters is if he's town with unknown jingle or scum with scum jingle

Bullshit.

Mena brought the comparison up after GNR was over. He has no need to manipulate his scumbuddy in a completed game based on this game, and the argument that that's a slip that implicates me is bafflingly dumb.

[Jingle]

After that wagon was shrinking until i voted in 1913
I pushed reundo when he came back from VLA and town tried to lynch bitmap instead of him.

Bullshit:

Hito was the only one on Bitmap when Kerset voted Reundo to L-1 in 1913. JJ swapped after that. Klick is the one who shifted momentum back after jj and Ali bailed, but nice try.

Also, yes, I sheeped my way onto the Reundo lynch. I wasn't sure he was scum. I also didn't take advantage of any of the opportunities I had to start another lynch.

[Jingle]

Chemist, i think i see why you never died in this game, you are the best in throwing games out here. First in magia you were just boosting our suspects and abandoned reading game in total, here you just decide to go back to RVS and prefer to vote confirmed PR. I can see that jingle as scum pretends that he can't afford internet data but you just refuse to use it.

Also:

353 I think. Mobile with no WiFi, so that’s all she wrote.

This is a quote from a town game of mine concurrent with this one where I mentioned I was mobile with no wifi as I was being lynched due to a functional fake guilty from shos AFTER Farkran tunneled me. A game modded by Kerset. Kerset 100% knew that I was telling the truth about my inability to access the thread, not least because I asked for spoilers when the dead thread didn't have them BECAUSE of data concerns and me not wanting the temptation to follow along.

The fact he's trying to spin this as scummy is because he's not town, regardless of the fact that it's an accusation of cheating in the first place.

[Jingle]

You said this by yourself jingle. What are you calling nice try?

Votecount 1.26
Reundo (5): Menalque, Alisae, Jingle, ofrhz, mastina Kerset (2): Chemist1422, jjh927 hitogoroshi (2): Shadoweh, Bitmap jjh927 (1): Klick ofrhz (1): Reundo Bitmap (1): hitogoroshi mastina (1): Kerset Not Voting (0): None. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline : (expired on 2020-01-16 20:30:00) Ann Notes : mastina v/la until 1/13

Hey look reundo is still gone. Are we really going to wait another day for his second prod or comeback? We have 4 days left, if he just make one crap post right before prod, then this is basically the last thing he has to do on day 1. You took pressure away from him, which was the last tool to make use of him. Now you will look for other topics and let him go under radar. You even ensured him that you won't lynch him until you get more information, which gives him comfort to lurk even more.
VOTE: reundo

VC and Kerset vote. Previous jump offs from the Reundo wagon? Chemist and JJ voting you. The bitmap swing that you're positing as the swing you preempted? That came after your vote. You're sheeping an argument I made that was fairly quickly pointed out as wrong iirc. Congratulations, you've determined I am capable of making mistakes reading.

[Jingle]

Menalque talked about the comparison after GNR was over but it was because everyone was wondering what mena was doing and why he fell silent after he had been one of the most active slots until bingle replaced into GNR.

Pretty sure after going back to look Mena was literally the only person who even mentioned his own absence.

Why is it more likely to make me scum that he would mention his absence there in this game than town? Why is the explanation of "I had similar reads on his slot in both games and he wanted to prevent me from rereading him" not a more reasonable explanation?

Was he also teamslipping when he mentioned JJ's team member Amrun was in that game?

[Jingle]

What is the point of voting scum on day 1, when everyone else find them as 1st town. I questioned and pursued him when you were just sheeping. I took scum one by one. First i took Reundo, then i voted mena and then i asked to lynch you. You literally lied here because you cut my post where i voted mena and said that i never voted him

I lied when I said you'd never voted Mena until well after the guilty? When the guilty came before your outright dismissal of it in 2062 (which prompted Chem to out to prove he was full of shit), a post that both comes before your vote and is in the quote wall?

[Jingle]

Spoiler: Kerset Talking about Mena Pre Chem corroboration on guilty

Mena and jingle are like school bullies, who bully bitmap because he has famous relative. It feels like excuse to make a push rather then accurate one.

Fluff post and buddying Bitmap.

The fuck are people voting ofhrz for

The reason is on the same posts. I don't like this post.

Obvdistancing. Not a real push, and not followed up on.

When you’re done catching up, could I get a quick readslist so I can see where you are?

Kerset
Bitmap
Chemist1422
Alisae

jjh927
Klick
Shadoweh
Gamma Emerald
mastina

Menalque
Jingle
hitogoroshi
ofrhz
Lady Ann

Mena is my least strong scumread! Yup. Super convincing.

When you’re done catching up, could I get a quick readslist so I can see where you are?

Kerset
Bitmap
Chemist1422
Alisae

jjh927
Klick
Shadoweh
Gamma Emerald
mastina

Menalque
Jingle
hitogoroshi
ofrhz
Lady Ann

did your team contribute to this at all?

Yea Farkran gave some insight about bitmap, ofrhz and menalque

Notice here that Farkran has thoughts about mena.

Yea Farkran gave some insight about bitmap, ofrhz and menalque

What were farkran’s thoughts?

He is scumreading you because he didn't like your bad push on me also fark is still salty, because he was hard townreading ofrhz when he was scum in the Normal game you played together
Do you want to hear about other as well?

Notice here that Farkran doesn't have thoughts about mena.

why not sheep me on it?

because I’m not locktowning you and it defeats the purpose of putting in a ton of effort if I throw it away to sheep someone

I'm not saying sheep me forever

I'm just saying give a bro a hand in getting a wagon going if you don't think your vote is doing anything that useful on ofhrz rn

Appeal to emotion, isn't it?

Again, this is superweak. ATE isn't a scumtell, and Kers is more WK'ing ofhrz (who is also a scumread?!?) than actually putting pressure on Mena.

Obviously I am biased but like, this is a really terrible post right? Bitmap vs. mastina is the fire at the heart of things, and Shadoweh has the soft condemn of "I think we should ignore it" and at least kinda-sorta implying it's TVT - but without hard comitting to a TR on either one, reaching out to one side or the other, trying to peel voters off their wagons (if no one likes me, that should be pretty doable!), whatever.

Could you compare shadow and menalque? They both didn't make hard stance or peel voters as you describe. Mena made light push in 776 and keep his vote on lurker. One is your main (or one of main) townread and the other your main scumread.
Btw i wouldn't scumread neither of them with your methods

This is a defense of shadoweh, not a read on Mena. It also manages to imply hito shouldn't scumread mena, despite Kers totally scumreading mena.

If you look at hito, he was able to apply his methods to both Mena and Shadow, because he is unsure about alignments and check every person with them. When jjh was analyzing each person around here, he picked person and then found faulty.

This is shading jj, not talking about Mena's alignment.

Also @jjh what’s the long and short on why you TR mastina and scumread kerset and bitmap?

Do you have no support from your team? Like we are in TM and you act like null info guy. Do you actually don't know or are you trying to find place for yourself to fit.

This is, again, pretty much the opposite of putting pressure on Mena.

Do this but just for my slot

You're in luck--I'm in the same mindset I was when I listed you as a townread!

That is to say, rather notably tired.

This mindset isn't the most productive to explaining things but it's the only mindset I can be in to explain the read since it was a read born of this mindset.

Basically I didn't intentionally have you as deliberately-unsorted, but I noticed that I wasn't making any effort to really sort you.
In my bout of tiredness, when catching up on the game and reading your posts around that time and the ones from shortly before then that were fresh on mind even though I had read them, I basically liked what I was seeing you do in spite of having the knowledge that I probably shouldn't but the gut-townread from what I was seeing was still there all the same.

Your contributions to this game just look town, mostly. Are they? Ehhh...probably not, it wouldn't surprise me if the people who actually know how to read you well would say you've done nothing that is strongly alignment indicative. And not gonna lie some of your earlier posting did look suspicious but in the very-brief "I am scumreading everyone in this game" sort of way where I realize I'm basically not townreading anyone and force a reset of standards to 'okay reset them to null then just work from there'. But the posting around the time I posted the townread on you was posting that I liked the mindset behind of as being something that it looked like it was genuinely trying to solve the game in.

you mean this right? why is this scum!indicative for mastina?

Also @jjh what’s the long and short on why you TR mastina and scumread kerset and bitmap?

Shadoweh Chemist Mena Kerset Bitmap
Hito Klick
GE jjh ofhrz
mastina jingle

this is pretty close to my list

I'd swap Kerset and klick and probably ofrhz and jingle

Let’s start here

separating it into 5 tiers gives something like
{Chemist, Ali, Shadoweh, Klick}
{Mena, Kerset, Bit}
{Hito, jjh, jingle}
{GE (Reundo), mastina}
{ofrhz}

this is what I’m gonna start working from with the top line being the only confident ones

Okay so like why is she in the tier below mastina and reundo?

{Mena Hito Shadoweh mastina jjh Klick}
{Chemiboi, Jingle}
{ofhrz}
{Reundo}
{Kerset, Bitmap}

Wait I thought you were SRing mastina? Also why is klick up at top and chemboi isn’t?

Bitmap what are your reads atm?

Like my own personal reads?

Yes

[bitmap]
[Kerset, Klick, Shadoweh]
[Reundo, Jingle, ofrhz, Mena, Alisae, Chemist] <- Null
[hito, jj]
[mastina]

I’m p sure I’ve seen something about the mastina and jjh thing in your iso

Can you explain why your town reads are up out of null for me?

Mena you took your time to gather thoughts about mastina but never gave option about her. She was relevant enough to be topic of discussion but not for option. Why did you skip it?

Oh! And this could lead somewhere promising.... Oh, wait no, Kers doesn't mention Mena again until:

Mena if you are vig then kill mastina. As ascetic there is no way, you get blocked so result will be legit.

Outright believing the asceticizing vig who can self target claim.

[Jingle]

When you’re done catching up, could I get a quick readslist so I can see where you are?

Kerset
Bitmap
Chemist1422
Alisae

jjh927
Klick
Shadoweh
Gamma Emerald
mastina

Menalque
Jingle
hitogoroshi
ofrhz
Lady Ann

did your team contribute to this at all?

Yea Farkran gave some insight about bitmap, ofrhz and menalque

Notice here that Farkran has thoughts about mena.

Yea Farkran gave some insight about bitmap, ofrhz and menalque

What were farkran’s thoughts?

He is scumreading you because he didn't like your bad push on me also fark is still salty, because he was hard townreading ofrhz when he was scum in the Normal game you played together
Do you want to hear about other as well?

Notice here that Farkran

doesn't

have thoughts about mena.

The whole prior post was worth reading, but this is particularly atrocious.

Kerset: summarize Farkran's thoughts about mena that lead to his inclusion in your scumpool.

[Jingle]

Votecount 1.24
Reundo (6): Menalque, Alisae, jjh927, Jingle, ofrhz, mastina hitogoroshi (2): Shadoweh, Bitmap mastina (2): Kerset, Reundo jjh927 (1): Klick ofrhz (1): hitogoroshi Not Voting (1): Chemist1422 With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline : (expired on 2020-01-16 20:30:00) Ann Notes : mastina v/la until 1/13

Votecount 1.25
Reundo (5): Menalque, Alisae, Jingle, ofrhz, mastina Kerset (2): Chemist1422, jjh927 ofrhz (2): hitogoroshi, Reundo hitogoroshi (2): Shadoweh, Bitmap jjh927 (1): Klick mastina (1): Kerset Not Voting (0): None. With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline : (expired on 2020-01-16 20:30:00) Ann Notes : mastina v/la until 1/13

This is the vote changes immediately prior to Kerset voting Reundo, btw. Note: Reundo is voting not Kerset. Kerset is the next largest wagon to Reundo's.

[Jingle]

Yea i was counterwagon to reundo. Do you want to know who wanted to stop reundo lynch?

You were the counterwagon Reundo didn't jump on that was made 100% of flipped town. So yeah... Scum really wanted to wagon you.

Also to note: I didn't leave the Reundo wagon, I said I was happy JJ was keeping him off of L-1 when you were giving intent to hammer before we had finished discussing. But you can paint that as scummy all you want.

[Jingle]

You are capable of telling lies. You lie all the time today. Crap like "you never voted mena, untill you voted mena" or the fact that you call your own deductions as bullshit here proves it clearly.

You didn't vote Mena until well after the guilty. You expressed mild suspicion on the slot and then ignored it for the entirety of D1. You then say both of these things are lies.

[Jingle]

okay jingle do you have a meme response to that

Sure:

Kerset in this thread:

[Jingle]

Rereading what? It would be exactly the same SvT. I mean town!jingle in GNR could notice that menalque was scum in that game once the game is over but town!jingle in this game will be able to use that meta to identify scum!menalque in this game regardless.

Town Jingle was townreading Scum Mena in this game. Town Jingle was townreading Scum Mena in that game. Mena intentionally lurked in this game to prevent me from putting two and two together about the similarities (and did so pretty well actually).

[Jingle]

He does, i asked whenever ofrhz wants to hear about them. Is it big enough for you to see it?

So... Those thoughts are?

I asked you to paraphrase them. You have a text record of them unless you've been cheating by discussing the game outside of approved mediums. You haven't paraphrased them. That's probably because it takes a lot more effort to paraphrase something that doesn't exist and make it make sense contextually.

[Jingle]

I'm taking the delay in posting between my declared guilty as confirmation it IS a guilty.
There's an old saying by DGB.
Paraphrasing a PT conversation takes seconds; fabricating a convincing PT conversation takes an eternity.
And this sure looks like the eternity.
VOTE: Kerset

[Jingle]

You lie again... you are neither flipped or town.

I guess I did lie. The wagon of JJH and Chem did contain an unflipped player. It’s cool how instead of addressing the post you take the opportunity to ignore it entirely and talk about how you can walk off the edge of the world though.

[Jingle]

There are like 6+ hours between our posts anyway and i have as much time i want to make mine. I can just delay my post by hour, if i want to and nothing will change.

This still doesn’t look like a paraphrase. If Farkran had thoughts that he wrote to you, why can’t you share them?

[Jingle]

RCE says he misread and you weren’t attacking me for bringing up the bp, just iioa-ing. Also, RC already made his point about the FN D3.

[Jingle]

Why do you two think I wasn’t killed and hito was?

Shadoweh argued you scum which made you slightly less conftown than hito and you were more likely to just vote me immediately since you've been wanting my lynch for like 4 days.

[Jingle]

Fark said that played two games with him and he seemed he was too calm and pocketing people way more than he know him to. I don't see how is it going to help us here?

Which games? Which posts are pocketing people?

[Jingle]

Spoiler:

BTW if reundo doesn't come back in 24 hours i will execute him

VOTE: Kerset

Reundo's not L-1 any more.
I want to lynch Kerset a lot more than I want to lynch Reundo

I'll consider switching my vote back if someone I respect tells me to

The thing where Reundo doesn't have a good reason for scumreading me whatsoever does line up perfectly with Alisae's assessment of his readslist

I think keeping Kers off of hammer at least is useful for the moment, jj.

You mean Reundo and yes that was one of my thoughts

I meant preventing Kers from hammering Reundo, actually, but yeah.

This last page by Kerset seems particularly off, and I'm not sure if it's off enough that I don't want to lynch Reundo anymore but I want to figure it out either way.

I think a Kerset red flip is potentially the best thing that could happen for this game where I'm not sure a Reundo red flip has the same impact. I'm also not sure what either of them flipping green does to my thought processes and I need to consider that.

Maybe Kerset is scum after all

I mean.
It should be pretty damn obvious.
That when the scum make narratives that don't hold up to actual facts.
And take contradictory stances that have no continuous trajectory to them, swapping to different stances to preserve the above (already falling to shambles) narratives.
And make broad sweeping statements that they can't back up with facts when pressed on the subject.

That yeah.
They're scum.

I’d prefer to wait for a claim tbh

But I mean this was the previous post

I’d prefer to wait for a claim tbh

@ofrhz

nsg wants u to unvote

VOTE: Kerset

That post was super weird and feels like shade

In this, the actual progression where Kerset and Reundo are both semi viable wagons:

Reundo is L-1, but discussion is actually still happening. People begin suspecting Kerset. Chem asks for a claim. Kerset declares intent to hammer anyway. Two KNOWN town players vote for Kerset. I remain on Reundo wagon, but tell JJ I support him taking Reundo off of L-1 while we have discussion ongoing.

I'm also scumreading Kerset here, sure, but none of this is Jingle voting you, which is what you claimed. And saying that from my perspective I'm scumreading 2 scum at EoD1 is not really a bad thing. My two preferred lynches were both on scum from my PoV. I stayed on the one that we actually lynched which flipped scum.

You know who else Kerset said was scummy for wanting both the Kerset and Reundo lynches but staying on Reundo D1? Mastina.

[Jingle]

i didn't ask him for posts there...

Please do. Ask him which posts from Mena on D1 came across as buddying in a way that town Mena doesn't buddy.

Because... You never once mentioned pocketing wrt Mena when that was the majority of your case on mastina (she was pocketing jj).

[Jingle]

Jjh was influential and leading mislynch towards townie, so i assumed that he has the highest odds of survival this particular night.

I don't know if you've addressed this, but why wouldn't you target a nullread with the FN instead of someone likely to eat a night kill early, if not N1? I know you said that you wanted to prevent your own lynch (which claiming the pending FN shot would have done anyway, so it's an immediately stupid reason) but why not target in the middle of the pack instead of the universal townreads, even if you thought the universal townread was an unlikely NK based on him suspecting bitmap/you who would have been unconfirmed to townyou at the time. Which I still don't believe.

[Jingle]

Yesterday hito was constantly evaluating things for my favor.

Yesterday hito was constantly reevaluating everything. He flipflopped on you a lot as well, and if anyone could be counted on to reevaluate in LYLO it was him.

Compare:

If you’re worried tho then the other ability I have begins with “a” and ends in “scetic”

Are you ascetic or an asceticizer or whatever it’s called

El segundo amigo

What was your action last night?

I ascetisised myself, if that’s a word

does this clear kerset in y'all's eyes

y/n

I think it does because of how badly he misunderstands the ascetic situation, and if he gets believed (somehow) and kerset gets outed as commuter/ascetic it's a super bad look for kerset[/quote]

Okay

VOTE: Jingle

I just don’t wanna be wrong on my Shadoweh townread

If you’re worried tho then the other ability I have begins with “a” and ends in “scetic”

...you do realize you’re the only one that thinks you and jingle aren’t the next two lynches, right?

Chemist doesn't see Kerset scum yesterday.

If I was scum I had a choice between the player who is actively reevaluating who I have a chance to convince and the player who has solidly wanted to lynch me since bitmap died. I'm not saying hito dying is clearing for me, but it sure as hell isn't clearing for you either. Either way you would have supposedly had an easy LYLO today.

[Jingle]

"Chem asks for a claim. Kerset declares intent to hammer anyway."
Chem asks for claim -> reundo gives claim -> i give reundo 24 hours and force him to ANSWER QUESTIONS
I gave intent after his claim and under condition that he doesn't answer our questions. How many lies are you going to pull today?

"I support him taking Reundo off of L-1 while we have discussion ongoing."
My intent states that he has to talk with us or i will hammer him. How did i stop the discussion from going?

My bad, I missed that the block of text from Reundo was the claim. Point conceded.

The fact is that the conversation wasn't all about Reundo at that point and your intent to hammer was immediately after Chemist voted you and hito made a wall about youscum. Reundo had absolutely nothing to do with that discussion, and so 'threatening him' wouldn't help it in the slightest.

Also, how is whether or not your reads are fabricated and your Mena push was legitimate or distancing not relevant to this game?

[Jingle]

1. There was like 90% that scum has roleblocker, which would block me after fn claim.
2. Then if this nullread would die then you would be asking. "Why didn't you target person X? Your target was so random".

Wat.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there's a scum roleblocker and this is role madness (your assumptions, supposedly, not mine, as I (and indeed, town in general) had no reason to presuppose a scum roleblocker until mastina's claim). That still requires that you actually near lynch twice, don't get confirmed by any sources, and for scum to use their roleblock on you. Meanwhile, there are 9 other town roles FYPOV who all have the theoretical ability to catch scum that scum aren't targeting. A guilty >>> an innocent.

Why would a nullread die? Say you targeted Klick. Why would scum shoot Klick? For Klick to die, there would have had to have been a vig AND that vig would have to shoot Klick over say... You. And so what if Klick is scum? Either she corroborates your FN or she risks getting caught in a lie by any other player being roleblocked or a tracker existing or any other number of threats.

That's not even counting the case where you play your claimed role intelligently, visit N1, claim FN D2, commute N2, and FN N3, when conftown is actually more powerful.

[Jingle]

Kerset I think has the most implausible role for scum, and the most clearing D1 behavior, but his behavior D4 was the most scum indicative I think

Kerset every time; unless someone pulls up some damning quote I have zero interest in winding back your clear. Menal doesn't die without your claim precluding the chance of alien and if that was a bus, whatever man.

Both things hito said yesterday. Are you going to dispute that he was the most active at reevaluating yesterday too?

Or that Chemist also publicly leaned towards lynching me?

[Jingle]

You are objectively correct that hito was reading you as more town than me at the end of the day. Chemist was ALSO reading you as more town than me. Hito actively reevaluated his reads ALL of yesterday.

I expected to be instantly lynched today regardless of who was alive coming into the day. Trying to paint me as scum because one of the people scumreading me who was actively evaluating reads yesterday died over one of the people scumreading me who WASN'T actively evaluating reads yesterday is laughable and obviously a narrative.

[Jingle]

Kerset: summarize Farkran's thoughts about mena that lead to his inclusion in your scumpool.

Fark said that played two games with him and he seemed he was too calm and pocketing people way more than he know him to. I don't see how is it going to help us here?

This took 36 hours and multiple requests, btw. I wonder how long it'll take to get Farkran to actually point out posts that are pocketing.

[Jingle]

i am not your servant, find them yourself

I'm not the one claiming they exist.

[Jingle]

Except the opposite is true and you are the one who tries to say hito was re-evaluating.

Yesterday hito was constantly evaluating things for my favor.

Oh wow. I hacked your account to post that! I totally forgot!

[Jingle]

OMG HITO WOULD RATHER LYNCH ME OVER CHEMIST!??? I CANT BELIEVE IT
2614 was about Kerset over Chemist not you

Yeah... Hito didn't have you as locktown. That's... kind of the point. He was still open to reading your slot. He specifically said he would reread Chemist if someone found a post from Chemist that was especially damning. Hence: hito was open to reevaluating your slot, provably. Which is more reliable than Chem saying he always reevaluates in LYLO 4 days ago and then being mostly absent until today.

[Jingle]

1. Nobody waste cop on person, who claims to selfconfirm.
2. If the condition of my survival is FN, then i am policy lynched when it doesn't appear next day.

Why would scum attack alisae or mastina? Hard to tell but one of those happened. Unexpected kill happen so i pick the best option.
Your pick is dumb. If you get pushed on n2 then you have to prove that you didn't use FN when you were widely scumreaded before.
Regardless on day 3 you have to say that you lied about using FN... and hope that someone can prove you in fact commuted. Otherwise you are VI

Cop is not the only way a player can be confirmed or softconfirmed. For example, a tracker could catch you being roleblocked or targeted for a kill. A kill could go missing which would make a commute strong town evidence.

Needing to use the Friendly Neighbor to slip the noose supposes that you would be lynched anyway because you were scummy.

As for why mastina would be killed: Why would a player who just successfully guiltied scum be killed?

At this point i am pretty sure that you shitpost, so chemist don't read this page. Wtf do you want to do here? Argue about difference between evaluating and re-evaluating? Proof that farkran isn't my imaginary friend and assisted me?

LMAO. "Chemist don't read relevant gameposts." Chem, you should absolutely read this page, and it's a fucking joke that Kerset says you shouldn't.


I want proof that Farkran actually cared when he made the read. Because scum DOESN'T care about making their reads. They care about making their reads look good.

[Jingle]

I said that you make tons of 0 value posts, because you hope that chemist won't read them. If i just let you make two pages in a single night then i am sure that he will only scroll them. Your whole tactic is to don't give crap about facts and just throw as much meaningless opinions as you can to make sure that he won't analyze anything and stay the way he is.
You even reached points where i could post your theories and you fought them without noticing. VC checks are irrelevant for you. My fav are 2759 2804, 2783, 2759

I can even tell that your next posts will be: no i didn't
and then i will say YES YOU DIDDDDD
and then you will say NOOOOOOO AND GIV ME FARKRAN RECORDS

I pretty much described your new posts beforehand.

Because scum DOESN'T care about making their reads. They care about making their reads look good.

So when someone change the order of final day 1 events to make them look good then he is scum? Or claim that mastina vest was known on day 2 to whiteknight ofrhz? Is this the kind of scumtell you are looking for?
You only waste my time...

All of my posts are direct answers to your bullshit, and you have just as much control over that pacing as I do. Maybe quote some empty posts of mine if you're gonna try to argue I'm just fluffing here. As far as the four you did quote: 2 of them are literally the same post, which isn't a lie. The other two are a minor inconsistency I owned up to and sarcastically responding to you blatantly lying yourself in the only manner it deserved: derision. That's a lot of fluffing! Hell, did you even respond to the point of 2804? How you became willing to hammer Reundo immediately after people started talking about how scummy you were being? Cause I sure as hell don't remember you doing so and it's one of your favorite posts and all.

You managed to predict that lying will result in me calling out your lie and not cooperating with requests will result in me calling you out on not cooperating with requests! Next you should work on figuring out what light comes after Green on the traffic light! Is it chartreuse? Kerset will learn us them futures tomorrow!

Again, how did I change the order of D1?

You were a wagon at 1.19, counter to mastina. Literally the same people all voted Reundo by 1.23. 2 conftown then tried to wagon you at EOD. You tried to hammer Reundo as soon as you came under suspicion again, but I stayed on the Reundo wagon. ALL OF THESE ARE CLEARLY TRUE STATEMENTS.

You on the other hand are trying to say my points about 1.26 are meaningless because they don't describe what happened at 1.19, which is fucking ridiculous, and trying to paint the vote jumps from Reundo to you as scum motivated when they came exclusively from people who are known to be town.

[Jingle]

If i quote your empty posts then you will argue about each of it. I won't help you generate more spam, that is your goal not mine. Your recent posts are ridiculous enough on their own.

Yeah... Chem has 4 people to look over these posts and NONE of them have been non game related since start of day, so keep blowing your whistle and pointing at brick walls all you want.

I didn't respond because i wanted to cut off your spamming...

Discredit me all you want, but none of this is spam. This is all either direct responses to you saying ridiculous shit or an attempt to generate content that Chemist can look at.

I don't need to cooperate with confirmed scum, deal with it.

I agree, you don't have to do anything. I'm not going to stop pointing out that you won't back up your narrative though, because that's some of the strongest proof to an outside observer that you are in fact scum. If you had an answer, you would answer, especially since you seem to think

2804

Again, that post is a post where I admitted to missing something. You've had one point at which you were correct, and the preponderance of evidence against you doesn't stand on that one point.

You're still sidestepping the point that the conversation you were attempting to cut off had nothing to do with Reundo, as mentioned in that post you've linked to roughly 500 times.

and all of these are shitposts, this is not where you lied before.... as i said: "Your whole tactic is to don't give crap about facts and just throw as much meaningless opinions as you can" You just made new points unrelated to this case to continue shitposting.

Reundo is L-1, but discussion is actually still happening. People begin suspecting Kerset. Chem asks for a claim. Ofhrz claims. Kerset reacts poorly. Chemist remarks he doesn't like Kerset's reaction. Hito posts a wall about Kerset's reaction. Kerset declares intent to hammer. Two KNOWN town players vote for Kerset. I remain on Reundo wagon, but tell JJ I support him taking Reundo off of L-1 while we have discussion ongoing.

Edited to emphasize the part you're fucking sidestepping and to include the claim I missed. Clearly, this is VERY DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW.

I had 0 votes before i pushed Reundo. I only got voted by chem AFTER i attacked reundo. Do you still think that you don't change the events of day 1 to make them look good?

You only gave intent to hammer after you were voted. Here's the whole fucking progression in black and white:

Spoiler:

Maybe Kerset is scum after all

As for Reundo feel free to lynch him. I feel no empathy for lurkers.

I’d prefer to wait for a claim tbh

OK, so first things first, I'm really sorry about my lack of activity. I didn't anticipate my schedule being so jam-packed when I signed up for this.

Regarding my experience: I've played a handful of games around my join date and am just now starting to pick up mafia again after taking a break for a year (this has only been my second game over the past two months). This is also the first game I replaced into, and I underestimated how long it would take to both read through a ~50 page game and also retain what I've read long enough to form coherent thoughts about it. My teammates also hadn't read my game, so I've pretty much been playing this game solo as well. I think trying to take it all in at one night was just a bad idea overall and I wish I did something more productive with my time.

I've skimmed through the last couple of pages but haven't had the time to read most of it in-depth. The case on me as I understand it is Gamma lurking + my reads list, which on one hand I do get why my slot is being scum-read and don't think it's entirely unjustified just looking at my slot objectively but on the other know that it's very easy for scum to jump onto considering they probably don't expect much resistance from me.

reundo - I feel like if you replace in and drop a readslist without explanation like that, the expectation is that you will be around to talk to people about it? Also his scumreads are me and two people I feel pretty strongly are town.

VOTE: reundo

While reading the game on catch-up, ofrhz never made a strong impression on me or did anything I thought was especially towny or couldn't come from scum, and this vote in particular comes off as very opportunistic FMPOV. First of all, I don't think you need much justification at all to jump on my wagon, but this justification is especially weird. It was very late for me when I posted that reads list and was planning to talk about it more in the morning (which unfortunately couldn't happen since I was pre-occupied with otehr stuff). Could I have waited until I was able to properly talk about it before posting it? Sure. Should I have? I dunno, maybe, but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. But that doesn't strike me as something that's inheritantly scum-AI, and tacking on that I scum-read the people he town-reads just looks like him trying to pad on some extra justification w/o needing to further explain my alleged scum motivation, and it reads like he feels the need to pull out ~some~ reason for scum-reading me without trying to sound like a broken record, which is entirely unnecessary coming from town. Like, I get it, my slot's done absolutely nothing and my read list admittedly leaves a lot to be desired, you don't need some new ingenious reason for voting me. And if he really did think this way, why didn't he vote me when I actually posted it until, I dunno, after I'd already gotten four votes, or at the very least point it out then (especially since I'm apparently his top scum read now). I don't buy it.

VOTE: ofhrz

Running short on time, so quick shotguns explanation on my non-nulls for now: Bitmap's engagement pinged pretty towny and there wasn't much he posted that I disagreed with or at least couldn't see where he was coming from, Klick had a lot of the same thoughts around the same time regarding mastina and one of hito's posts so his thought process seemed pretty genuine and I also liked his engagement whenever he was around. Not too much for my town-leans but basically: Jingle I thought his engagement with mastina and subsequent read-flip was genuine even if I didn't agree with it, Mena I thought his aversion to being town-read so early was towny, Chemist had a few posts I liked but can't recall off the top of my head, admittedly my weakest town lean. I kind of forgot why I scum-leaned jjh and a quick glimpse through his ISO isn't helping, but that early reads list he posted where he had almost everyone but like 3 people as town seemed way too early for D1 and most of his hard-town didn't ping me anything close to that. Mastina I still can't really see as town -- her hard scum-read of Bitmap pinged me pretty early on and didn't really seem genuine, and a lot of her walls just read like fluff if you read them closely and most of the time she explains her reads with a lot of words that add up to next to nothing rather than explaining why she reads someone this way or that, and her case on Bitmap didn't do a good job explaining Bitmap's scum motive and mostly felt like pointing out posts she didn't like. I'd be willing to jump to her too atm.

And as for my claim: my role is Domokun, I don't have any abilities outside of my vote (so basically a VT). Sorry about the long wall and my lack of activity overall. The rest of today and tomorrow is a bit sketchy for me, but I'll try to make more time for this game if at all possible.

What? VT in mini theme? Sounds like bs.

In game like this you would rather get negative utility then blank VT.

@ofrhz

nsg wants u to unvote

VOTE: Kerset

That post was super weird and feels like shade

You think that reundo is scum, but ALSO that Alisae is as well? And you have Alisae and bitmap *together* in the scum tier? who the hell do you think reundo is partners with here? no thoughts on shadoweh not listening to your reason to unvote me, or me keeping a bead on her so long? Just L-2 on the low-hanging fruit while making it all sound like your own idea.

your tone here suggests to me that you think those reads are bizarre. To me that comes up as a red flag because I don't see as scum why she imploys that strategy when its easier to just put the whole bloc as town

Have thoughts on this but it makes more sense to wait and hear what ofrhz says first. I think you're kinda missing what I think the suspicious thing is but if you are that means ofrhz might also, which means we could get an answer that's really revealing in either direction.

Gotta agree with ofr in that the Kerset views on mastina/jjh seem really underdetermined. If mastina is pocketing jjh so obviously that even a newbie would notice by now, then jjh is town! It kinda seems like you want to just quote individual posts you don't like in isolation, but the whole point is that peoples actions need to be interpreted in the context of how they interact with everyone else. Kerset, maybe a more productive way to have this discussion is - who are your strongest

townreads

, and what do you think they're missing on mastina? What do jjh/mastina flips makes you think about the other one?

As for Reundo feel free to lynch him. I feel no empathy for lurkers.

Even when this wagon was conjured up by basically your worst enemies? If I daycopped Reundo red right now, who are your picks for his buddies?

I am genuinely flabbergasted that Reundo could have ofr as his alpha scumread but both "person who went apeshit on ofr" and "person who passionately defended the hell out of ofr" as null. How can the exact discussion you wanted happen like...two pages ago and you don't have a single thought on it?

@ofrhz

nsg wants u to unvote

To vote who, and why?

What? VT in mini theme? Sounds like bs.

???
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a role madness mini theme run here

Both happen plenty of times. Having a few VTs at the end helps contain swing, which I would imagine is a design goal here since it's more important than usual to make sure every time has a chance to influence gamestate. (Or, at least, that was a big constraint *I* followed for Signs and Void ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) But role madness is also perfectly possible. In any case, speculating about which is which D1 means that you're mostly going off of your *own* PM, which means you kinda leak to scum what information you have, which means I think we should probably just drop this for now

BTW if reundo doesn't come back in 24 hours i will execute him

What part of the discussion you were cutting off involved Reundo? None of it? Oh, it was three known town players talking about reasons that your slot was scummy? Kinda like I've been saying? Oh... Eat a dick.

[Jingle]

Hito and chem dislike the fact that i want to kill reundo.

You think that reundo is scum, but ALSO that Alisae is as well? And you have Alisae and bitmap *together* in the scum tier? who the hell do you think reundo is partners with here? no thoughts on shadoweh not listening to your reason to unvote me, or me keeping a bead on her so long? Just L-2 on the low-hanging fruit while making it all sound like your own idea.

your tone here suggests to me that you think those reads are bizarre. To me that comes up as a red flag because I don't see as scum why she imploys that strategy when its easier to just put the whole bloc as town

Have thoughts on this but it makes more sense to wait and hear what ofrhz says first. I think you're kinda missing what I think the suspicious thing is but if you are that means ofrhz might also, which means we could get an answer that's really revealing in either direction.

Gotta agree with ofr in that the Kerset views on mastina/jjh seem really underdetermined. If mastina is pocketing jjh so obviously that even a newbie would notice by now, then jjh is town! It kinda seems like you want to just quote individual posts you don't like in isolation, but the whole point is that peoples actions need to be interpreted in the context of how they interact with everyone else. Kerset, maybe a more productive way to have this discussion is - who are your strongest

townreads

, and what do you think they're missing on mastina? What do jjh/mastina flips makes you think about the other one?

As for Reundo feel free to lynch him. I feel no empathy for lurkers.

Even when this wagon was conjured up by basically your worst enemies? If I daycopped Reundo red right now, who are your picks for his buddies?

I am genuinely flabbergasted that Reundo could have ofr as his alpha scumread but both "person who went apeshit on ofr" and "person who passionately defended the hell out of ofr" as null. How can the exact discussion you wanted happen like...two pages ago and you don't have a single thought on it?

@ofrhz

nsg wants u to unvote

To vote who, and why?

What? VT in mini theme? Sounds like bs.

???
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a role madness mini theme run here

Both happen plenty of times. Having a few VTs at the end helps contain swing, which I would imagine is a design goal here since it's more important than usual to make sure every time has a chance to influence gamestate. (Or, at least, that was a big constraint *I* followed for Signs and Void ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) But role madness is also perfectly possible. In any case, speculating about which is which D1 means that you're mostly going off of your *own* PM, which means you kinda leak to scum what information you have, which means I think we should probably just drop this for now

Oh rly? This is "Kerset wants to kill Reundo"? lmao

Now you're misrepping dead people.

[Jingle]

town was going for bitmap?

In the immediate vicinity of your vote there is no Bitmap push, only a Kerset push. So...

[Jingle]

I am not sidestepping, I agree with it. You wanted to convince others and make them lynch me instead of scum. I wanted to prevent scum from running away. You tried to engage conversation in which i would be lynched and reundo would be ignored bc he was going AFK again. You are exactly correct that you wouldn't talk about reundo as you didn't want it.
In post 1776, Jingle wrote:
In post 1773, jjh927 wrote:
You mean Reundo and yes that was one of my thoughts


I meant preventing Kers from hammering Reundo, actually, but yeah.

This last page by Kerset seems particularly off, and I'm not sure if it's off enough that I don't want to lynch Reundo anymore but I want to figure it out either way.

I think a Kerset red flip is potentially the best thing that could happen for this game where I'm not sure a Reundo red flip has the same impact. I'm also not sure what either of them flipping green does to my thought processes and I need to consider that.

And if you add back in the context of what actually happened:

I think Green Reundo actually firms up Green Ali, because scum don't tend to want to build castles on sand, if that makes sense.

I don't know that Green Kers firms up anyone, cause no one has made strong defenses there and the attacks have all had fairly sturdy foundations.

I'm pretty okay with just lynching Reundo, atp.

[Jingle]

Yes! You are a bot. This is secret turing test and i declare that you failed it.

I mean... At least I can read.

There's a giant hito post about why you are scum there. The closest it gets to talking about you wanting to kill Kerset is talking about how you're joining a wagon with a bunch of scumreads with no hesitation. He wants elaboration on your jjh/mastina reads. Wants you to talk about your townreads. Thinks you should have stronger reads on people who are not Reundo.

All of that somehow boils down to hito scumreads Kerset for wanting to kill Reundo, and that makes me a robot. :lmao:

[Jingle]

I agreed with you. I wanted to cut off people, which wanted to talk about scummy shit I was doing. What is your deal?

You really don't see what's scummy here? Cause if you don't, I legitimately think you might need the special attention of a second grade teacher.

[Jingle]

Let me guess you are going to argue that "push on immediate vicinity of vote" isn't the same as "momentum during vote". Are you still surprised why do i call your posts valueless shitposts?

Bitmap push referenced here was an all town push by hitogoroshi, jjh927, and mastina. Kerset's vote came on page 77. Kerset's cherry picking of a post I made early D3 that is provably wrong at this point to imply he's town when it applies to myself as well is really impressive. Being wrong is definitely scum behavior.

More importantly, at the time of your vote, there was ONE person voting bitmap. There were several talking about how scummy you were. That's really the whole point.

[Jingle]

I think I’m gonna reread today then decide later tonight

Go for it. I'm done with the game, tbh.

I do want to point out that mastina had this shit on lock D1 and is easily town MVP. She should get all of the points for being useful to town.

[Jingle]

RC leaves a message here.

-------------------------

Kerset is the scum for a bunch of reasons.

1) Why the fuck would Kerset have done a friendly neighbor on jjh when he clearly had him as scum in {mastina/jjh}. It makes no sense outside of being the possible nightkill so no one has to support that claim. Also, Kerset and his D1 play doesn't resemble the play of someone who can have access to friendly neighbor. They would have been not worried about getting scumread because they can just claim and get townread.

2) You're all assigning town credibility by being on the wagon but instead it's the fucking opposite. As I said before, if Mena's vote is the first vote on the wagon and hard pushing it you can be goddamn sure that his other partner will also be on the wagon as well. Reundo pretty much just outright given up on this game. Strongman or not, scum were'nt going to put themselves in a shitty position by risking to defend him and thus the positions that make the most sense for scum are the early votes. If for some miracle, for some reason, Jingle is somehow conftown, that leaves prettty much kerset and did I forget to mention that his interactions with Reundo were terrible? The "lurkers get no sympathy from me" is bad and 1913 is so disgustingly SvS looking post.

3) Your positions as a group in this game just suck.

Klick isn't scum.
Shadoweh isn't scum.
We're not scum.
Mastina isn't scum
Ofrhz isn't scum.

We don't know what ever reasoning mechanically that you're using to clear people outside of all of that but Kerset can easily be claiming commuter as an ascetic role and the reasoning that they claimed friendly neighbor on a target WHO IS DEAD with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of being in an ISO in thread doesn't bode well with me.

Yeah, clearly we should just sheep RC here.

Kerset very likely town; Chemist quite likely town.
Jingle and Klick no mechanical reasons to be town, but townreads of mine based on play.

Also, I'm pretty excited that you're town because mastina was townreading you, but I'm scum because no one was townreading me while mastina was townreading you and also me, albeit you for mech reasons and me for subjective ones.

I'm not going to do an exhaustive search for people calling me town because clearly you've already done one and only missed the read of the single player with the most experience with whose reads were the main talking point for your post.