Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Nachomamma8]

I am grateful for this new lease on life. I will attack this game with renewed vigor shortly.

[Nachomamma8]

It's good to see you, old friend.

May our dance together shine as bright as the righteous fire of my scumhunting fueled by the graciousness and gorgeousness of my savior to whom I am personally indebted, the venerable Alibae.

[Nachomamma8]

I will also make it extraordinarily clear that I am very firmly against the idea of sparing and only sparing.

Currently the town who went for a straight spare lost and the town who did not won. Sparing and doing nothing but sparing is bad because of the echo chamber effect; good scumhunting doesn't occur in the absence of BLOOD - you never truly meet the man until you hold him at the volcano's edge.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel surprisingly good about Hectic being town, considering it being page 5 and all.

There's a gorgeous feel good concoction brewing over there - a healthy mix of a strong, confident tone and a gimmick that I believe scum would be less comfortable implementing than town. The combination of both gives a loose cannon feel which I feel is significantly less likely coming from scum - as scum, you are forced to contend with your partners whispering in your ear and also silently sort of judging you whenever you are doing something crazy as Hectic is doing now whereas as town the people who lynch you are technically wrong, so it often feels less risky to go off the ranch in significant a way as Hectic has.

Now, some people might point out that Sherlock is also doing a gimmick and no I don't think it has anything to do with his alignment - that's his posting in general (aka seems like someone made a gimmick alt) and thus there's an expectation that he keeps up with it/a higher chance that's something he decided to do when he made the alt as opposed to a gametime decision like Hectic likely made here.

In the bits of scumhunting that he's done there's not obviously a ton but I do like that he pointed out the +town on Chemist's entrance. I don't understand why Billy ends up his spare vote instead of the Chemist (why go for the diluted townjuice when you can go for the pure stuff?), but I'm digging his vibes and so for now he is my spirit animal.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand why Billy ends up his spare vote instead of the Chemist (why go for the diluted townjuice when you can go for the pure stuff?)

(Especially since Billy didn't call Chemist town, really - he said that his opening was better than it usually was but then flipped it to a suspicion because Chemists openings are usually worse as town. Hectic, I think you misinterpreted Billy was making re:Chemist.)

[Nachomamma8]

BUT I DIGRESS

Detective Holmes, I am interested to hear what you think about my interpretation of Hectic's posts since we sit on different ends of the spectrum. I don't feel your problems with him are significant - I think it's pretty common to prod at things that feel weird in a game of lies and deceit; sometimes you tug at a weird thread and it becomes a thread where you misunderstand something but sometimes you tug at a weird thread and it becomes scum making up reasoning so they can make a move that benefits Team Baddie. If it's late in the game and Hectic is still pursuing "weird" and has nothing he wants to burn to the ground then we can have some words but until then I think your efforts are better spent elsewhere.

Chemist's opening is a light town. My thoughts are that town are more likely get in a huff or respond with sharp edges in the way that he did when he was confronted with a false accusation simply because they have the Mandate of Heaven in the form of that sweet sweet town role PM. Town read is bolstered by the good townread on Hectic and then immediately going off the ranch with his Asriel townread.

Artist who formerly was not Chara, a towncore is nothing if not tested. Games with limited flips are decidedly anti-town. Please don't get lured to the "we find town and we win! easy game!" siren call.

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Amrun

i remember you being more uncomfortable in your scum shoes than your town ones, and here you don't say hi and you don't engage with the game when it is the easiest to engage with - i get busy but i don't think that avoidance wasn't busy.

were you annoyed with the roleplay heavy and didn't want to play spoiler? what do you think of my thoughts so far? what can i do to make the game better for you so we can skip down this road together and crush all of those bad monsters that stand in our way?

[Nachomamma8]

and finally one more thought before i tear myself away.

even if we spare today (i don't think we should), and even if we spare all four days (i !!!REALLY!!! don't think we should), i think it'd be beneficial for the town to try to flush out some baddies first. hectic brought up that there's more town than scum and townies can sometimes be scummy and scum struggle to be townie (which I disagree with but different time different place) - not making an earnest effort to find them makes looking townie a hell of a lot easier. the thing that makes scum scum is the lying and it's much harder for scum to lie and say "that person i know is town is scum" or "you are wrong about my partner that you caught" than it is for them to say "i'm town! the townie everyone thinks is town!".

think about it, friends. don't let this young dragon's words of wisdom fall on deaf ears.

[Nachomamma8]

i did also read the setup and my personal goal is to lynch scum D1 and then spare three townies from the towncore fallout and force mafia to kill themselves.

because that would be friggin' sweet.

[Nachomamma8]

I now believe the best strategy is to adapt based on how strong your reads are. Is there an obvtown floating around? SPARE them. Is there someone you're confident is scum? FIGHT them.

I agree wholeheartedly, little one.
This is the approach that I would also like to take, with one small accompaniment - it is less punishing to be wrong when picking a fight than it is when sparing a soul, and so I'm more likely to hurt than heal.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho, hectic is an established gimmicker - if you didn't know that already - and I don't doubt for a second he would be incapable of doing it as scum given his extensive practice.

This is my first time playing with him (I think?) so I didn't know that and I appreciate you pointing that out.

Calling the practice extensive, though - I think that means that we either have very different definitions of the word or my language when talking about my initial read on him was less precise than I'd hoped it would be. I'm not disputing that Hectic would be able to gimmick post as scum; I simply believe that if Hectic was scum, then he wouldn't be able to pull off the gimmick and have it present quite the same way, and I think a cursory glance of his completed games lends a bit of credence to my point.

A bit of homework for you:

Skim Hectic's posting in this game and compare it to his posting in this game. There are some stark differences (some more obvious than others), but in particular, I want you to focus on the difference in tone. How free and willing to take crazy swings in one game versus the other? Can you see where he seems very focused on his self-image in one versus the other?

If he is scum this game, he's doing an exceptional job in taking risks and putting himself out there (and making it count) - little things like immediately claiming his character or choosing a gimmick that could very easily backfire on him (aka people get pissed off and lynch him) and making them immediately and confidently which might not seem like a big deal now that most people have accepted it. And for a cherry on top, he's doing a good job of dropping in some organic scumhunting when he could attempt to hide behind a gimmick that will make a majority of people ignore him anyways.

[Nachomamma8]

hit a button and didn't intend to..... this post is the complete version....

@Nacho, hectic is an established gimmicker - if you didn't know that already - and I don't doubt for a second he would be incapable of doing it as scum given his extensive practice.

This is my first time playing with him (I think?) so I didn't know that and I appreciate you pointing that out.

Calling the practice extensive, though - I think that means that we either have very different definitions of the word or my language when talking about my initial read on him was less precise than I'd hoped it would be. I'm not disputing that Hectic would be able to gimmick post as scum; I simply believe that if Hectic was scum, then he wouldn't be able to pull off the gimmick and have it present quite the same way, and I think a cursory glance of his completed games lends a bit of credence to my point.

A bit of homework for you:

Skim Hectic's posting in this game and compare it to his posting in this game. There are some stark differences (some more obvious than others), but in particular, I want you to focus on the difference in tone. How free and willing to take crazy swings in one game versus the other? Can you see where he seems very focused on his self-image in one versus the other?

If he is scum this game, he's doing an exceptional job in taking risks and putting himself out there (and making it count) - little things like immediately claiming his character or choosing a gimmick that could very easily backfire on him (aka people get pissed off and lynch him) and making them immediately and confidently which might not seem like a big deal now that most people have accepted it, but for someone who has one completed game as far as I can tell, this is a big deal and a stark difference.

The second point, as Chara alluded to, is the scumhunting that he's done. In particular, I liked his push on Sherlock - the "Town players can act scummy a lot of the time. It's harder for a mafia player to act very naturally towny, and that's the people we're SPARING" piece seemed genuine especially keeping the games of his that I've skimmed in mind, and I think that him calling Chemist town and instead sparing Billy Pilgrim is something that mafia would avoid simply because there's no good reason for Hectic as scum to deviate from the straight line of "call town, spare town".

[Nachomamma8]

Amrun, I've been waitin' for you
Don't run away now
We've got hunting to do

Amrun, I feel so alone
And I need someone
To help me find scum

'Cause Alibae just left me
And I need someone who
Who can tell me whoever
Is the scum in this crew

Oh Amrun, oh Amrum, oh Amrun
Come to me

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not so sure why having a gimmick would indicate being town...

I have read your post 122, regarding your homework, I don't use or listen to cases that form from meta.

My read on Hectic is not "he has a gimmick and thus is town" and have said as much at least two times.

If you sort of close your eyes and try to avoid using meta, you're giving yourself a blind spot for no reason at all. In games that are competitive, it's important to study an opponent's tendencies. Doesn't mean that it's the entirety of your read or the most important piece of your read, but refusing to address something that will help you get a more accurate read is incredibly silly.

[Nachomamma8]

Correct.

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: JTB

Fair enough.

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Sujimichi

[Nachomamma8]

So, unfortunately, I will be traveling from now until the 2nd of February. My activity will be a little more limited than I'd like and I'll be stuck phone posting, but I will still be a force of nature.

[Nachomamma8]

I've seen meta be completely wrong, as well as coming to the correct conclusion but with completely wrong reasonings.
As far as I'm concerned, what's happening in this game is far more important that I'd give it 90% weighting and any 'meta': 10%
Everyone should be 'aware' of their 'meta' and constantly be changing it, thus it becomes inaccurate.

This is the last I will say on this and it's more than I wanted to say in the first place because it's a theory discussion and doesn't necessarily belong in the game, but, your thinking is flawed.

1) I've seen a bunch of people were wrong for a bunch of different reasons. An overwhelming majority of the time, it isn't the tools themselves that are wrong, but the way that they are used.
2) In the game, you should be seeking out a way to understand the people around you. Understanding what they are capable of as either alignment is oftentimes an extremely useful baseline to have; I agree that it should be used less often than it is now, but the reason it is being abused to the extent that it is now is because of how potent it can be.
3) I am aware of the fact that I should plan out my meals in advance so that I don't go out six times a week. Yet, I do not. Changing your meta is equivalent to changing who you are; some things are easy to manipulate and some things are not - good meta picks up on those peskier habits.

Why are you voting Sherlock when you haven't read ant of his posts?

[Nachomamma8]

I understand we need to Fight at some point. I do not see the downside to delaying that to Day 2 with a guaranteed Spare.

There are no protective roles in this game - scum will be able to kill whoever they like on Night 1. I would rather have the town player that scum want to have around the least chipping their voice in to a kill or even a spare on someone who isn't confirmed town than I would giving scum what basically equates to a free night kill. I believe that risk is worth the 1/8 chance they hit the conf town.

[Nachomamma8]

And now, freedom. My hands are cold but my heart is open and waiting to be filled with beer so I might start making even less sense than I usually do so bear with me.

[Nachomamma8]

HEAL: Hectic

My strongest townread seems to be a sickness that's spreading throughout the entire town; if I spare today, I can't think of anyone I'd rather save than you <3

[Nachomamma8]

I disagree with your risk assessment strongly, and I need to evaluate whether this is truly your opinion on what is best for Town or your desired outcome.

My mechanical thoughts here are the same I expressed during the last Undertale game I play and after seeing our town win despite miscues and seeing the SPARE CITY town go down in horrible flames they are thoughts that I continue to maintain. Consider the following points and tell me how crazy I'm being here.

PROPOSAL A: SPARING CONFIRMED TOWN IS NO MORE BENEFICIAL THAN SPARING VANILLA TOWN

Consider the game of billiards. In the game, a "duck" is considered a shot so easy that you basically can't miss it. And yet, common strategy dictates that you don't take ducks the minute they become available; you use them when you don't have any other good shots available. This is because correctly sinking balls that are in OK but not perfect are more valuable than sinking balls that you know you will get anyways - kind of how correctly sparing a vanilla town now is more valuable than a confirmed town. If we back ourselves into a corner and things get mucky, sure, take the duck. But otherwise, why should we take it right now? We still have to sink the same number of balls - why not take care of those we are most likely to lose opportunities in via nightkills

now

and take the duck when it is most convenient to us?

PROPOSAL 2: SCUM PLAYING AROUND MECHANICS OF FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR IS ACTUALLY GOOD FOR TOWN

So, bear with me because I know that I am constantly teetering on the edge of insanity. When we spare someone, that person should always self-hammer and they should always claim friendly neighbor or not while they self-hammer. This means there's a 0% chance of erroneous claims and it prevents the scenario where scum can reasonably claim friendly neighbor and get away with it.

Keeping that in mind, I think it's far better for town if scum have to deal with the possibility of their plans going to shit with mislynch target #1 claiming friendly neighbor and they can no longer push them - we are much more likely to catch them with their pants down than we would be otherwise and I really don't think that getting a correct Spare D1 is a situation that scum is actually in any way afraid of.

My other thought (the smallest of the three, so I'm not making it big and bold) is that we are protecting a player, a voice, not so much a role - thus I'd rather protect someone I know is a good player and I know who will produce and push the town towards a win as opposed to rolling a roulette wheel and hoping that a strong town player is also a friendly neighbor.

Do you still disagree with my risk assessment? Do you kind of see where I'm coming from or do I still seem lost in the sauce?

[Nachomamma8]

we lynch them the next day and don't take the chance of getting our friendliest of neighbours killed over night.

My friend - why are you so afraid of this occurring? What is the difference between friendly neighbor getting spared and a good townie getting nightkilled vs a good townie getting nightkilled and the friendly neighbor killed???

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you voting Sherlock when you haven't read ant of his posts?

I quite clearly understand and read the relevant posts in regards to my accusations and his post 42 I'm referencing.
I wonder, do you understand my case?

Sherlock is voting or was voting with JT because JT healed him. He was explicit about this fact. Where do go from here to get the "Sherlock is scummy for his vote" conclusion?

I'm asking for a friend because I'm totally not voting with Amrun simply because Amrun said hi back.

[Nachomamma8]

Amrun said hi back and I was tickled...

blue

.

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Asriel Dreamurr

But, even just saying that, I want to strike out on my own. I liked the "did something interesting?" post but the rest of the ISO seems stilted, withdrawn. Don't mind holding these feet to the fire.

[Nachomamma8]

Replica, the following is the best description of my idea approach - I do not desire to fight early and spare later like it may have seemed based on other posting:

I now believe the best strategy is to adapt based on how strong your reads are. Is there an obvtown floating around? SPARE them. Is there someone you're confident is scum? FIGHT them.

I agree wholeheartedly, little one.
This is the approach that I would also like to take, with one small accompaniment - it is less punishing to be wrong when picking a fight than it is when sparing a soul, and so I'm more likely to hurt than heal.

Secondly, you quoted one of Hectic's town games. I believe I linked Hectic's only scum game in the post you're referring to.

[Nachomamma8]

Although I suppose you are right I in that I likely want to murder early and not late but that's operating on the assumption that I probably won't be around late but I will be around early.

[Nachomamma8]

And now I see the last two pages are considerably more sense than I expected. I am hungover but I will read into them with a bit more patience and caution in a little while. If we are murdering I'm happy to kill Pine or Asriel for the exact same reason of "they haven't done shit nor attempted to do shit". Sparing wise I'm currently comfortable with Hectic or bust but that might change on a reread when I'm in a bit more of a thoughtful mood.

[Nachomamma8]

Just hopping off the plane now - I will make a concerted effort to do a solid catch-up tonight because I will have time to do so. Chemist's townreads are extraordinarily strange if he's scum - I don't think he has good reasons for calling Pine or Asriel town, but I don't see him sticking his neck out for either of them regardless of his alignment if he's scum here.

[Nachomamma8]

Basically refuses to answer, and then says I'm looking at him clearly because to avoid looking elsewhere
I can literally say that about anything anyone says to me. If thats scummy when I do that, then this is scummy

I don't at all understand why you interpret Sherlock's response as "refusing to answer", or why refusing to answer is such a sticking point for you in the first place.

His response was that you were transfixed with a weird question that isn't actually all that significant, which is... correct. I agree that him saying you're pushing him in order to avoid looking elsewhere isn't exactly life-changing, but I don't think it's a scummy point and don't see why you feel that it is.

[Nachomamma8]

@pops: Can we get a prod on Asriel?

[Nachomamma8]

Second, some thoughts on Chara:

I don't really vibe with this post.

1) Saying the "stop doing this" as opposed to "this is scummy" is a stylistic choice and doesn't really have anything to do with a difference in motivation, IMO. It has a slightly more aggressive edge I guess, but the point overall here seems fairly nitpicky - your in depth bit on not liking giving scumreads advice because it allows them to adjust also seems to be a much too serious interpretation.

2) Your framing of Chara's change of heart on mechanics is a bit disingenuous; Chara's mind changed because they didn't realize the impact of playing a limited flip game, which I'd argue is significantly different from "realizing townreads are wrong".

[Nachomamma8]

Pine: Pine is basically get a free pass for D1 or am I being mistaken? Nobody is pressuring Pine for afking, other than Sherlock (for a few posts only) but they are pressuring Asriel for afking.

I ended up choosing Asriel over Pine partially because of Pine's preference for scum (which is rarer than a preference for town) and because I agreed with Amrun that early vibes felt a little off. I don't think Pine's free pass is intentional on anyone's part.

[Nachomamma8]

Did you ever explain this vote?

I did. I voted Sujimichi in order to follow Amrun. I didn't have a significant read of Sujimichi myself.

Is this for afking? What about Pine?

It is mostly for AFKing, yes. Pine is another lurker and I don't yet have the ability to fight two people at once but maybe once I level up a bit that will change?

[Nachomamma8]

Chara
I feel like there is a pattern here.
Most of the posts are 'socialising/fluff? (unsure, I think there is some familiarity among the players), while the other half is once again discussion in regards to the FN sparing.

There are very few posts that are actually hunting scum. Chara has a very neutral stance it seems.

It would be a hell of a lot easier to address if I wasn't posting on phone and instead had a computer to work with, but I disagree that Chara hasn't been scumhunting or has adopted a neutral stance and think you thinking otherwise is a matter of you not reading Chara's posts closely enough.

Examples that come to mind off the top of my head as "scumhunting you're probably missing" is questioning Hectic on his Billy heal the second he dropped it or prodding Bartholomew to give his opinion on Hectic when he was initially trying to get away with just pointing out that he was a gimmick player or even going off the ranch a little with the Amrun pressure.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and Chara are both of the other heal votes on Hectic oh good god

Well tomorrow Replica it's all you champ I'm tagging out. Probably doesn't matter but lmao

Can you rehash the bits you don't like about Chara and I? My impression was that the thrust of your read on both was mostly due to things that were misinterpreted.

[Nachomamma8]

On a separate-but-similar note: Do you still think it's useful/indicative given the level of play we've seen from Hectic?

I do think it's useful to keep the "if Hectic is scum here, this is is first significant scum game" and I think that it's useful to see that Hectic's initial scum game WAS an extremely conservative one and is a harsh difference from the play we are here. It's not the main thrust of my read - I'd still be pressing for the spare on him even if that one scum game didn't exist.

[Nachomamma8]

WILLING TO SPARE:
Hectic

FIRM TOWN:
Alimida
Replica
Sujimichi
Chemist

TOWN:
Amrun
Chara

THE REST:
Sherlock
Asriel Dreamurr
Pine



These are preliminary thoughts. If I get back at a reasonable time tomorrow/don't decide to go out on the town, I'll focus on doing a reread and see if this is how I actually feel.

[Nachomamma8]

Wooo buddy. Glad we have more posting: will catch up reading for now and maybe will get some preliminary thoughts on the table but I won't be able to do anything real until tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

...and, as I feared, definitely too drunk to read + understand + make cogent replies. I will attempt to NOT imbibe tomorrow so that I can be a good boy which will probably be better for my overall health.

[Nachomamma8]

Why me too what?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm flying home today - I will try to check in tonight but if I do not it's because I passed out and instead will see you tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll catch up with a laptop tonight - will hammer the spare after I catch up and provide thoughts.

[Nachomamma8]

It's unfortunate we nailed the FN today, but I also feel the day is finally heavy/interesting enough where we can actually figure some shit out.

[Nachomamma8]

Siblings,

My next day off of work is tomorrow and I will give you all of me then. I apologize for repeated delays and broken promises but the real thing is coming in HOT.

[Nachomamma8]

Psyche I enjoy you as a human being.

[Nachomamma8]

Also if you could keep this between us that would be grrreat but is Bingle just a Jingle alt???

[Nachomamma8]

Why was Sherlock killed last night?

[Nachomamma8]

This is really bad; townreading both of the lurkers without reasons points to a classic newer scum mistake: Knowing someone is town and working in reverse.

You seem to dislike or not understand most of my posts so far, as opposed to just having disagreements in play style or interpretations. You still have me as firm town. The only plausible explanation I can really think of myself here is that you like my tone and push for engagement and activity. You are much, much better than to readily drink that kind of Kool-Aid. That Chemist read is so bad.

I mean, I haven't played in a while so maybe I no longer know what I'm talking about and maybe I never did, but newer scum don't tend to push back against the hivemind in order to protect lurkers for basically no reason. The "knowing someone is town and working in reverse" normally happens with people they regard as threats as opposed to big juicy mislynches, but, again, maybe I'm just an idiot here?

I'm townreading you because I don't believe the approach that you've taken care of is one that would be advantageous for you to take as scum and I do like your tone and your earnestness in figuring out the game. Your implication that I as town would have a deeper and more meaningful townread on you than if I were scum is silly since chances are you wouldn't be my first mislynch target; if you're doing something sketchy that you think I should have picked up on feel free to enlighten me but otherwise I don't understand the angle.

[Nachomamma8]

what is the main thrust of your Hectic read, Nacho? i agree he's towny, in that he is engaging with the game and giving reads that make sense, but i don't know if that's worthy of an absolute locktown read.

i know we only have a day left, which is unfortunate, but in terms of spare targets i am most sure of, it would be Replica more than anything.

HEAL: Replica
there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.

it's worthy of a locktown read because i think that his scum range is much narrower than someone like Replica's. in addition to the scum game that I linked earlier, there's also the half-scum game he played in Mainstream Mafia where he ended up replacing out; he's just in a gorgeous kind of sweet spot where there's a vast tonal gulf in between his scum game and town game in general and his town game here looks very town based on the engaging game and making sense but also the smaller details that just make it obvious that our boy doesn't have an agenda.

[Nachomamma8]

i do wonder about his list of reads, because from calling Replica "disingenous" (with negative connotations?) i didn't expect a strong townread.

i thought that replica's portrayal of your posting was a bit slimy and overly critical in that he seemed to be fitting a square peg into a round hole. i don't think that's necessarily a scum trait; again, don't think that scum replaces in and starts pushing a you+me team unless they feel they have a case that can get them some support or clout and the push as a whole didn't read that way.

where do you see scum, Chemist?

not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there

so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji

will probably work through this soon

when you say cop-out push, do you mean you think scum are pushing it, or just LHF?

Just LHF but I do think scum are probably pushing it if I’m right

this is a weird position to push when there was exactly 0 people voting for pine at that point in time.
what did pine do that read town to you? why is it scummy to think that someone who has done absolutely nothing has a chance of being scum?

[Nachomamma8]

delaying his own spare at i believe L-1 is something i like, since i find it likely he'd have had no problems if scum and he decided to tell alimdia (is that who it was?) to go ahead.

this is a very firm towntell from my position and don't understand why it hasn't gotten more attention.

LHF is people who are getting pushed on specifically for that reason, or any other that makes them easy to lynch (abrasive personality, inability to produce content, bad reads)

the problem i have with this perspective is that when you were pushing it, there wasn't a push for pine or asriel to die. i was comfortable with the deaths of both but realized that my reasons for wanting them to die (they weren't there/other people were better) wasn't compelling in the least bit, and so i pushed for a spare instead. a vast majority of yesterday was pushing for spares - you creating this world where people were pushing LHF when no one was really pushing anything is actually fairly sketchy.

[Nachomamma8]

Since i'm re-reading your ISO first, Amrun... on my first readthrough, all your posts sound like town, and that is why you have been placed that high in my readlist. On a second read, though, it seems that you are lacking a significant amount of internal consistency in your posts and i'd like to learn why.

i like farkan's willingness to attack amrun after just slotting her in as her #2 townread, and I do believe the prodding of her being comfortable with her top scumread pushing through the spare wagon of the day is a valid concern to have and a sweet catch if farkan is actually scum here.

Hmmm... i think this is a townslip from Amrun. Banal misrep on a scumread, i think this almost always comes from tunneled town. Or, at least, Amrun is genuinely pushing suji and not trying to put pressure or reaction test anything.

I'll explain the thought process that led to this conclusion: when you are town and uninformed, you form uncertain reads, which then you subconsciously corroborate every time you see something that apparently agrees with your theory. It's wrong to play like that, but it's how the human brain instinctively works. If something goes in the same direction as you are going, you are more likely to perceive it as true - therefore you do not pause to doublecheck if you were correct. That is indicative of sincerity. Sure, scum!Amrun too could produce a fake tunnel against suji, but it's... way less likely, because it's really hard to fake subconscious reads. I am more confident on town!Amrun now, and the displayed range of read mistakes/instinctive thought would explain her internal inconsistency i pointed out earlier.

this also feeds the farkan = town fire in my mind; don't think he'd take this significant of a swing on Amrun!town if he's scum here.

[Nachomamma8]

At very least, I'm sympathetic w/ suspicion against nacho. I think it's because I've picked up kinda high expectations for his townplay, and he doesn't seem to really be meeting them here. But that's so weak! I'm totally aware that it's so weak!

can we stop doing this? i appreciate half of the sentiment of this statement and its various forms; this community means a ton to me at the end of the day and i definitely had a moment in time where i played a bunch and was familiar with a large chunk of people and thus was easily cleared as town and was able to sometimes clear others as town/get strong as shit slam dunks. i also had more time. i appreciate that this nacho wasn't forgotten.

however, i did take a long break from the site for a reason. and when you don't play for a while and then come back you aren't just taking up from where you left off. and i think that people who form expectations of me based off reputation are setting themselves up for some disappointment because i wasn't a consistent nor conventional player to begin with.

[Nachomamma8]

@Replica: idk maybe black/white isn’t exactly right. Maybe rigid is better. Let’s hug it out?

If y’all fucking fight nacho day 1 I’ll have fisticuffs with all of you individually.

Why? What is it about his play that you find so strongly indicative of Town?

What about his play is it that you find so strongly to be scum? Everyone’s cases are garbage.

awwww and if i kept my angsty complaints to myself for about 5 minutes more i would have felt much better and wouldn't also feel silly

love you amrun

[Nachomamma8]

although I still do not think that sparing is anything other than terrible for D1 and really dislike that his last meaningful activity was pushing that especially when he earlier called it out as suboptimal

that's just how the game turned out for me.
if i had a scumread that didn't suck i would have pursued it, but i didn't. instead i had a townread that i felt really good about. so i pushed the townread. i don't understand why that was a sticking point for anyone.

[Nachomamma8]

saying "this is my first time as mafia" while in other ongoing games is really skeevy for the record

i wanna walk through the logic to make sure that's what's happened...

this is a very pure reaction to a gamechanging event

[Nachomamma8]

Suji
Sherlock
Hectic
Nachomamma
Me

I'd bet the whole game on this entire group being town. And god surely hates someone in the scumteam if the IC isn't among these. I simply do not need any scumreads this game and don't care if you don't like it. Let's just end this and go next.

ok yes i see why chara is townreading psyche to the degree that they are
i don't really understand amrun's mindset in this exchange

[Nachomamma8]

After I realized I made the meta mistake, Nacho was a blindfolded dart throw based off of what he was advocating mechanically. That Chemist read (Probably town because why would Chemist defend the two lurkers) was so singularly terrible that it shot him way up. Definition of half-assed, and I strongly, STRONGLY doubt that it matches up to what he's seen from town/scum respectively over the years.

i probably had a shitty chemist read, yes.
but you're being a drama king and had a shitty nacho read, so... nyeh?

[Nachomamma8]

currently at the point where the scumteam is exactly {Chemist, Amrun} and now that the rest of my reread will either be finding ammo for those two reads or finding places to make snarky comments while waiting for something else to jump out at me, but.......

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Chemist1422

HEAL: Hectic

[Nachomamma8]

As town, I'm good at being active. I'm bad at motivating others to do the same. I'm very bad at reads, and in particular I have a bad habit of sticking to a single thing. This works really well when it's correct, really terribly when it doesn't. To make this worse, recognizing it and trying to correct for it ingame seems a 50/50 for bad results, making me feel stupid when I do. I can be very irritable if I think someone is being condescending. I was always the youngest in every group growing up, and it's an artifact that has stuck even as I've grown older.

you're currently sticking to a single thing.
that thing is me.

you were right about why my chemist read was bad. chemist's perspective of "scum is probably pushing LHF Pine!" is super bullshit when there wasn't anyone actively pushing pine. his asriel townread as his strongest townread because "if he was scum he would be nervous, but like, afraid of being nervous and i don't really think he's THAT town but he's not like scum, you know?" and using that piece to push me because i thought those two had a chance of being scum is fucked. it's incredibly suspicious now that both of those lurkers have been replaced and now are actually super fucking town - you were correct that he was making a level 2 play of pushing people falling for mislynch bait.

so now it's time to kill him.
then we spare out of {Hectic, Psyche, Farkan, Chara} and last scum (prolly Amrun) kills themselves.

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: unvote
i may have been wrong about Chara...
but i am a little suspicious...
i'm still hiding from her after we started playing hide and seek and she still hasn't found me...
maybe scum-indicative...?

let's have a small rant on how hectic pushing chara here is town as fuck - i know that people are freaking out because two scum games of meta makes me feel like i have an understanding of hectic range but being willing to push hard against someone who is a strong advocate for you being town and then having the ability to fake a genuine progression where you press and back off and hem and haw a bit and thinking of making those types of moves when you're in an amazing position (and thus really shouldn't be rocking the boat) is some advanced scum play. i don't think hectic is capable of it; i don't think the hectic in chk's DnD mafia feels so flat if they have a genuine enjoyment of being scum and i don't think that hectic's grown from that first scum game which wasn't that long ago that dramatically. there's also shit like the small flash of paranoia surrounding me then settling with "where he's experienced so maybe he can just

tell

", that's something that never ever comes from new scum who doesn't feel incredibly comfortable playing scum in the first place.

[Nachomamma8]

oh i totally forgot bingle was in the game.
bingle could also be scum!

[Nachomamma8]

in fact chemist/bingle is way more palatable than amrun/chemist! i just thought that i'd run out of people and felt better about the pool i mentioned earlier + replica!

[Nachomamma8]

i know you've given reads on Farkran and Psyche. why is Psyche town?

?

The only time I elaborated on psyche was to say why I think he’s scummier than Amrun, why Amrun/Psyche isn’t S/S and that psyche had felt less scummy recently. None of that is a townread.

Psyche feels better because I get the sense he’s trying to figure out what is happening instead of manipulate people into fights. It doesn’t make him town, but does make his perspective considerably more interesting.

hey can you sheep me on either chemist or hectic?
my cases are conveniently on this very page!

[Nachomamma8]

at this point i'm sort of in awe of myself at how badly i've misread your posts, so i'm just going to sit here and focus on... focusing. you were talking to Farkran there, and even referred to Psyche in the third person in the same post.

i still don't like your downplaying the strength of your reads but i don't think you deserved the tone i took in my most recent posts to you at all, and i apologize for that.

as an aside, really nice to see you back, Nacho.

pedit: this post is to Bingle.

the post where you tell me it's really nice to see me back is directed to bingle?
kind of awkward but OK

can you vote chemist w/me? can we unite in dunking on scum this day phase in order to set up for the incredible reward of forcing scum to kill themselves down the road?

[Nachomamma8]

and these are genuine requests. it feels good to be back and to have people calling me town and saying that they're glad to see me but i think the game cracks open pretty solidly with a chemist lynch.
i feel the {Hectic, Psyche, Farkan, Chara} core is a pretty solid one and am open to prodding at those four.

i'm still gonna reread in the meantime but i'm high on life and ready to take a shot at living the dream so am more than happy to procrastinate on finishing on the read in the meantime unless there's something crazy i'm missing currently (like another player) but i don't think so!

[Nachomamma8]

hey can you sheep me on either chemist or hectic?

Maybe. I feel like I can come around to Hectic town and chemist has done fuckall. I’m pretty confident that fark is town and fark is pretty confident that hec is scum though, so I’m gonna wait for a rebuttal.

why does fark think hec is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

This is the correct level of paranoia to have around me. Or anyone, really, unless you have such strong meta experience with a player that you can bypass standard ways of hunting. There are people with near unlimited scumranges. Townreading said people under certain circumstances is ok, but those reads should never be 100% strength level in one sense or the other. I think this also applies to Hectic, or Bingle for that matter. Or Amrun herself.

like call me a skeptic but don't you think it's a little unreasonable that Fark says that Hectic has a near unlimited scumrange when he's played two games as scum and neither of those games were particularly impressive? when both games he played as scum featured a flat tone and a lack of his glowing and engaged personality?

[Nachomamma8]

hey can you sheep me on either chemist or hectic?

Maybe. I feel like I can come around to Hectic town and chemist has done fuckall. I’m pretty confident that fark is town and fark is pretty confident that hec is scum though, so I’m gonna wait for a rebuttal.

why does fark think hec is scum?

i was hoping you were aware of this reason given he was in your townblock but i guess not. if you ISO me and Farkran there should be somewhere where this is discussed heavily. another perspective on that whole conversation would also be nice, because the frustration i felt is why i unvoted him (in my experience i don't get that annoyed with trying to understand to understand scum) but i'm of two minds on the whole thing.

pedit: that's also a TLDR. Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given scum has even more reason

not

to delay their own spare.

i asked that question more for the me understanding bingle benefit as opposed to the me understanding farkran benefit for the record.

[Nachomamma8]

i can also see chemist town tone early.

but chemist tone after i went on my long hiatus isn't so great and his progression from the "pine is just LHF and scum is pushing him" stage to his current reads are also not great.

[Nachomamma8]

I never really realized that 3 town spares and a scum lynch is as much a win as 4 town spares.
I'm kind of mediocre intellectually the more I think about it.
Oh well good thing life isn't about being good at stuff.
Unless I'm wrong about that as well.

it's way more of a win because scum are forced to submit a nightkill on themselves

and i'm well aware that my desire for a flashy win is a well-known Achilles heel of mine and thus i need people to keep my honest but i really do think that winning via scum being forced to select themselves as one of their nightkills is really fucking awesome

[Nachomamma8]

if i kill chemist now and chemist flips town then we know something is majorly fucked in the state of new york and it's time to put in work to make a chance

if we spare four people and we don't win, then we have no information about where or when everything went wrong

[Nachomamma8]

to make a change*

[Nachomamma8]

WHY FAKRAN IS FRIEND:

1)

In Fakran's opening, I really like how he was fairly scattered and combative and took a number of shots to the wall that obviously weren't popular - in particular, I liked how he went from calling Amrun his strongest townread to immediately attacking her two posts down the road (and thought that him getting concerned about her interacting with her top scumread was a reasonable line of inquiry and demonstrates him handling a bunch of different possibilities all at once). It's possible for scum to come out swinging on all cylinders in the way that he did here, but it's a remarkably risky move to take close to deadline since he's basically taken a swing at everyone who's anyone all at once - the level of conviction that resulted in "even a lynch on me is better than sparing!" is remarkably ballsy without solid theory to stand behind.

I like this post wrt Amrun from Farkran, and have based pieces of my read on Replica based on this reasoning exactly. If Farkran is scum I'm not sure he offers a townread like that which is so hard to back away from.

I think that this post is also a really weird and emotionally manipulative one if Farkran is scum here. Farkran has his feelings hurt a bit by Suji calling him "detrimental to town or a strong Mafia leader", and uses that as leverage to jab back and say that Suji wasn't acting like themselves.

It's also crazy hard for me to see something like this meta engagement bit and then launching into Replica being near certain because he spoke about the danger of people sheeping his vote and wagons creating coming from scum in a million billion years - again, that's sticking your neck way way out for absolutely no reason if scum - which of course comes in the middle of a bunch of Farkran prodding at various groups moving together (Hectic spare being equal to Farkran fight, etc) - there's just a lot of shit going on here if Farkran is scum - a ton of effort put into "showing progressions and showing that he's willing to push reads" but not a lot of effort into an actual scum agenda.

Loved the salty response here - that shit was pure.

Farkran coming out with guns ablazing against you/Replica/Hectic here makes no fucking sense if Farkran is scum here; there's definitely diminishing returns associated with being townread for being crazy in this setup (not likely to get spared if you go too far off the ranch). And I can go on if you'd like but the whole read is along the same lines - Fakran is extraordinarily genuine and taking a very very absurd track if scum, Fakran also has pretty excellent progressions on reads if scum and also tends to run through a large # of possible scum worlds all at once that surface now and again in his ISO. Fakran is almost certainly town.

[Nachomamma8]

More gratuitous shade - there is nothing in my theory that i haven't been explaining solidly and properly, even if you believe i am wrong. Resorting to omgus-fossing when you are out of arguments is not the correct move.

HURT: Farkran

the solidity of your theory or the consistency of your explanation has little to do with your towniness. it does have everything to do with scum who try to be correct in order to avoid being caught in a contradiction.

it also doesn't make any sense if you scumread Replica to word it this way. it's like you're saying if town Replica should find your argument sound, when the point of what you're saying is that they're scum.
that's not quite exactly what i mean but i hope it comes across.

Why do you think Farkran as scum is going all in on this argument to paint Replica as scum?
Like, I agree very strongly with your perspective on the argument and have absolutely no idea why Farkran feels as strongly about it as he does, but I also can't see Farkran being scum here and the danger post being the straw that broke the camel's back and resulting in the "I don't care if this is vanity" vote that it did.

it's true it's a weird tactic to take as scum, but i can't imagine town thinking this way. for me it has less to do with the spare vs. fight discussion and more that his points neglect looking for reasons for the progression, and miss (or outright omit) obvious things. i thought it might be a playstyle issue yesterday, and i did feel like i had genuinely confused Farkran, but i'm not seeing any sign of that here.

you know this is no good. i've mislynched some people for some crazy ass fucked up reasons before. i've gotten mislynched as confirmed town going into LyLo because i told the two unconfirmed town to cross-vote. scum has no motivation to attack one of the more engaged members of the town by pretending that townhunting isn't a thing which means that some wires got crossed somewhere. fuck if i know what wires those are, but.

[Nachomamma8]

Ah alright

Hectic, I initially townread you because I liked your progression into solving.

fun fact - this isn't actually true.
chemist started reading Hectic as town roundabouts #24, at a time when Hectic hadn't done anything resembling solving.

[Nachomamma8]

i remember hearing some time ago that bert gets really bored and disengaged as scum. is that a false memory?

i miss bert.

[Nachomamma8]

My Nacho read is based on one central thing: I think they are having trouble making genuine reads. I don't like them repeatedly going "I disagree with this but Chemist is still town", it feels like them trying to justify a TMI townread, I don't like the abundance of mechanics talk, and I don't like their scum pool being mostly lurkers then them proceeding to lurk.

i disagreed with your townreads but thought you were town anyways.
you disagree with farkran's scumreads but think he's town anyways.

man that's crazy how life works right???

the mechanics talk attack is bullllllcrap. mechanics talk has been rampant throughout the game and a big proponent of it has been your second strongest townread Farkran. what makes mine scummy and his OK?

i don't understand why me having lurkers in my leftover pool is scummy or why my lurking after that point was scummy?



i don't think that this case is a case being presented by someone who is actually trying to figure out my alignment (or anyone else's, for that matter). i think that chemist needs to die by a shiny holy fire.

[Nachomamma8]

I think chemist’s scumread of nacho is fair. Why townread Farkran though?

is it though

[Nachomamma8]

the fakran push on chara/replica/hectic got away from me about 50 pages ago. i'm kinda weirded out by how bingle is down to clown with that.

[Nachomamma8]

Why was Sherlock killed last night?

I appreciate that, failing a full catchup, you've switched gears to trying to pick up the pieces as you go.

Respectfully, though, I think you need to start at the "What am I confused by, what am I struggling with, and why am I finding it so difficult?" questions rather than trying to grab hold of the first thing you see.

your respectful advice is rejected - drunk nacho will try to catch up however drunk nacho will try to catch up.

[Nachomamma8]

THESE ARE ALL OF THE POSTS THAT HECTIC HAS MADE AS A BAD GUY EVER:

Spoiler: look

Conflict of Interest:

This is my first game on this site, but I've played a few games on my university's mafia society forum. I think my chances are lower than average.

All the hydras in this game scare me; are hydras harder or easier to read than an individual?

Also, why is it good to claim bp straight away? My understanding is that it'd be a confirmed town that is risky to shoot at by mafia in the night, but couldn't mafia then have a roleblocker, given they're in the same column?

Honestly, I haven't read through the thread properly yet because I was about to sleep. I'll be back in 12 hours.

I think I may have bit off more than I can chew with this game. @mods: Gonna have to request a replacement. Sorry everyone.

Hectic awoke with a start. His dreams had been filled with cults and bus drivers, and the transition into wakefulness took longer than normal.

His eyes adjusted to the surroundings and he groaned. It was a groan of a man who knew he had truly

fucked up

. The clock on the wall read 1pm.

1pm.

What did that mean? Well, it meant he was going to be late to the mafia game of course. He could only imagine the bulky bandwagon that would've formed outside his door. This wasn't going to be fun.

He sighed and leapt off the bed, strolling with feigned confidence - just in case there were any hidden cameras - towards the desk on the opposite end of the room. Speaking of the room, it was clinical and extremely clean. Almost

too

clean for comfort. Did that mean he was a doctor this time?

He peered down at the dusty role PM that lay upon the desk. This was the moment of truth. He reluctantly picked it up, accepting whatever fate that the Old Gods had in store for him.

Bulletproof Lynchproof Town 10-shot Day Vigilante.

For a moment, Hectic simply stared at the sheet of paper. He hadn't recieved a role PM in many years and this one could very well be his last.

Finally, he set the PM down. It wasn't great, but it wasn't his worst either. Most importantly, it was something he could work with.

Hectic stuffed the PM into his pocket and gazed towards the door. It was metallic and complex, with buttons and levers spread across it's glistenening body. However, the words plastered on the front made what needed to be done self-explanatory.

Push to open.

It was time to make an entrance to the game. It was a good thing he carried around a Roman legionnaire's shield for times like these.

He angled the shield in front of him, and tentatively pushed the metallic door. It was heavier than a bus driver, but he managed to push through with sheer determination. He braced himself for the bandwagon that would surely come crashing into him.

Instead, he was met with nothing.

Well, nothing directly outside his room anyway. What he was instead greeted with was a booming grand hall filled with various wacky characters and creatures. 40 metallic doors, similar to Hectic's, were spread around the circular hall. A podium holding various household objects and weapons of mass destruction sat in the middle of the hall.

A crafty looking axolotyl scurried across the ground in front of him, winking as it passed. It looked so happy, and that warmed Hectic's lukewarm heart.

Hectic frowned as he noticed many of the players dual wielding hammers and sickles. Was this a new fad he had missed? If only he'd have entered the game on time.

Then, out of the corner of his eye, he made out a familiar face.

As Hectic and Aaron talked in hushed tones, a strange man sporting a magnificent beard and luscious long hair approached the pair. Hectic raised his hand to Aaron, indicating that they had company.

The man was... dancing. Non-stop. It was the same dance repeated on loop over and over. The man seemed to have a bottomless pool of energy.

"That must be tedious to carry around," the stranger said in a gruff voice.

"What?" Hectic replied cautiously, a little scared.

"Your legionnaire shield."

"Ah, right. I'd forgotten I was even holding it. It's kinda like an attachment to my body at this point."

"Guy needs to lose some weight ASAP."

"Uhh... that's a little rude, also did you really need to shout that last part?"

Nero Cain frowned, "No, not you. The bus driver."

"What bus driver?" Hectic replied, confusion stretched across his face.

"Never mind, I'm bored of this conversation. Bye."

And with that, the man danced away with those same moves on loop. It was truly an eerie sight, and several shivers were sent down Hectic's spine.

Aaron gave him a sombre look, "And that's one of the normal guys."

"Calling Nero one of the normal guys or implying he's town is just bad news."

Hearing the voice behind him, Hectic jumped out of his skin. He then sighed and started pulling his skin suit back on.

Aaron gave him a sympathetic look, "Anyway Hectic, I've got some scum to hunt so I'll talk to you later."

He gave Hectic a knowing nod. Hectic gave Aaron a knowing nod.

He turned around to examine whoever or

whatever

had snuck on him. It was... a Pokemon of some sort, at least he thought it was.

"Well?" asked Wooper, impatiently.

"I only just got here, so I kind of missed everything before this point. Sorry, do you mind filling me in on Nero?"

Amrun was a paranoid man. On an average Friday, he was crawled up in his nuclear bunker, far, far away from any sign of life.
But not today.

Today, Amrun was surrounding by bright lights and buffoons all around him, shrieking at the top of their voices. Why in the world had he decided to participate in this "real life mafia where the stakes are real and very dangerous and you may possible die - that's not a joke."?

Worst of all, he wasn't able to satiate his cravings ever since

the ban

.

The ban

had changed everything, and his withdrawal symptoms were only getting worse and worse.

He whimpered. He couldn't take it anymore, a tactical retreat back into his room was absolutely necessary here. He turned his back on the pokemon trainer riding a dragon that had been talking to him, and dashed straight for his room.

"Actual scum. Have we lunched amron yet?"

Amrun paid the trainer no mind. He burst into his room and shut the heavy door behind him. He let out a deep sigh and turned around.

It was beautiful. Tears of raw emotion started flowing down Amrun's cheeks. He let the flow freely, not bothering to wipe them away. He reached under his bed and pulled out a trunk filled with dozens upon dozens of hammers and sickles. There was

no way

he was going to let those capitalist pigs ban and take away his prized possessions.
Amrun sat there, cradling the rusty tools in his arms as he beamed up at the Leader of the Worker's Party. They could go without him for a few hours.

*Amrun was a paranoid lady. On an average Friday, she was crawled up in her nuclear bunker, far, far away from any sign of life.
But not today.

Today, Amrun was surrounding by bright lights and buffoons all around her, shrieking at the top of their voices. Why in the world had she decided to participate in this "real life mafia where the stakes are real and very dangerous and you may possible die - that's not a joke."?

Worst of all, she wasn't able to satiate her cravings ever since

the ban

.

The ban

had changed everything, and her withdrawal symptoms were only getting worse and worse.

She whimpered. She couldn't take it anymore, a tactical retreat back into her room was absolutely necessary here. She turned her back on the pokemon trainer riding a dragon that had been talking to her, and dashed straight for her room.

"Actual scum. Have we lunched amron yet?"

Amrun paid the trainer no mind. She burst into her room and shut the heavy door behind her. She let out a deep sigh and turned around.

It was beautiful. Tears of raw emotion started flowing down Amrun's cheeks. She let them flow freely, not bothering to wipe them away. She reached under her bed and pulled out a trunk filled with dozens upon dozens of hammers and sickles. There was

no way

she was going to let those capitalist pigs ban and take away her prized possessions.
Amrun sat there, cradling the rusty tools in her arms as she beamed up at the Leader of the Worker's Party. They could go without her for a few hours.

Hectic despised communists.

VOTE: Amrun

Doctor Drew wasn't having a great day. Despite locking himself in his room, he could still hear frantic yelling from outside. A chorus of cries calling for his untimely demise.

This did not amuse the good doctor. In fact, it

bemused

him. It bemused him to such an extent, that even thinking about that time he had accidentally hammered someone he had an innocent cop check on, but then had flipped as a mafia godfather, did not make him smile.

You're not even a real doctor.

Drew instinctively covered his ears, despite knowing it would do nothing to block out the voice in his head.

You're a disgrace and you should self-vote.

Drew violently shook his head. He wasn't quite sure if the voice was his own thoughts or if another player was somehow filling his head with negativity and malice, but he hadn't found a way to stop it since it started up a few hours ago.

DrDoLittle will always be the superior doctor.

He screamed. The voice knew all of his deepest darkest fears; it was going to drive him completely insane.

Don't worry. You may be lazy, unorganised, unloved and sn average doctor at best. But at least you're innocent in this game, right?

Drew had finally reached his breaking point: He entered a state of catatonia.

Korina climbed out from under the bed. The fool, how could he have assumed there was a voice inside his head. Speaking into his hand to create an ominous muffled voice had paid great dividends. That's what Drew got for calling cults bastard that one time. Also, he supposed he'd gained some good intel on his alignment.

Cults will never, ever be not bastard.

Korina frowned.

I get it, some people don't like meta. I get it, small sample size.
But you don't go from that ^^^ to this in such a short span of time. There's no way in hell Hectic is scum here and that shouldn't require a big ass case. Hectic is town. Hectic is town. Hectic is town. Hectic is town.

[Nachomamma8]

and i'm spinning my tires thinking if there's anything left to be done in order to win this game or anything else i need to post in order to help expedite us winning this game but there's not?

{Hectic, Psyche} are my Tier 1 spare now reads. Hectic is playing way outside of his range if scum and thus should be a slam dunk. Psyche's play around the town slip and catching a bunch of townfirms is extremely town.
{Chara, Farkran} are my Tier 2 spare later reads. These places might get paranoid thoughts in super outside worlds but these two would be top townreads in a normal game. In a world where Chemist is town and I'm apparently smoking some serious drugs then I might touch this group but otherwise nope most definitely not. Chara is my "extremely genuine engagement, like the cut of their jib" read whereas I've explained Farkran already but it boils down to extremely genuine paranoia and progression on that paranoia + playing the most batshit scumgame ever if scum.
{Amrun, Replica} are my Tier 3 "probably very likely town but who cares???" reads. Other than the whole "forgot bingle was in the game" thing Amrun and Replica have had some extremely genuine pushes and while I'm definitely more inclined to be paranoid thanks to wide scum ranges I really think in my heart either are scum hence a big "turn the world upside down" moment if Chemist turned out to be town.

I don't really have a scumread of Bingle. Bingle towning himself would change the landscape significantly, just haven't seen it yet.

Chemist is scum. I don't like the "scum are pushing LHF Pine" when no one was actually pushing Pine at the time. I don't like his recent posts; not only do they tonally feel flatter than shit, but the reads that he has today most certainly feel forced and I'm still bothered by the Hectic explanation even though it's something I recognize I probably shouldn't be.

but this just looks like the gamesolve to me
if there's anything horribly wrong let me know buuut

[Nachomamma8]

Farkran - you seem to be viewing my Hectic read through the lens of "would this read be good if someone had it on me?" when in actuality the reason I am emphasizing Hectic's meta is twofold - one, he doesn't have a lot of experience playing scum, and two, he's extraordinarily uncomfortable when playing scum, which is the important piece. You don't get over being scared when you post as scum in a couple of months.

Second thing that I'll address right this second is I take exception with your assertion that wrong = bad. I was wrong yesterday; doesn't mean that I was bad. The only bad thing about your play right now is that you're reading with the intent to respond instead of actually listening to what people are posting; if you go all Rambo with your reads they're gonna suck more often and not simply because the game is too hard to be soloed.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum!Chemist = i literally cannot see a reason for him to push me as a spare unless we are exactly the scum team, which is an immediate no to me.

I don't understand this at all. Scum doesn't push for a town spare because...?

[Nachomamma8]

HURT: Pine

Pine might be someone i'd wrestle with as well, i don't know if there is much difference between them besides Asriel being the one to have ignored me a few times now. i know he's busy with his chores, but really.

Thinking Nacho. He posted but didn't respond to my posts.

Otherwise Pine or Asriel.

Sparing Hectic probably works because if he's scum then we kinda deserve the loss

@Nacho
These were all on the two pages before I made my Pine read

Out of these three I find Alim's vote to be the worst, especially considering their ISO of Pine was "this slot has done nothing and hasn't gotten pushed"

I don't understand

[Nachomamma8]

...don't understand why you townread both Asriel and Pine yesterday, or, more importantly, why you thought it was scummy for people to say that they weren't townreading people who did nothing which is something you still haven't addressed. I think that you dropped the "people are just pushing an easy lynch on Pine" bit before it made sense for town to do so - your top townread Hectic was the only people who voted them + a couple others said they didn't think he was town. They weren't pushing him, they just said that they didn't think he was town. Why was that an unreasonable position to take?

[Nachomamma8]

currently at the point where the scumteam is exactly {Chemist, Amrun} and now that the rest of my reread will either be finding ammo for those two reads or finding places to make snarky comments while waiting for something else to jump out at me, but.......

I don't see where the read on me came from other than you not liking me defending the Pine/Asriel slots

And even if that's your issue, you still aren't putting me in a team with them

Why would I? I don't believe you were defending a partner. I think you were defending LHF in order to throw shade on the townies who fell for it.

[Nachomamma8]

Comparing Alimdia's posting here to a recently completed scumgame makes me feel better about the slot, too. There's a lot of throwing out loose speculation and accusations with a lot less emphasis on Alimdia not understanding points or trying to get to the bottom of them.

Posts like Alim's #129, #202, and #211 show a lot more genuine confusion and interest in understanding someone's thinking imo.

This is a stretch. While I agree there was more of an effort here to understand what was going on, I don't think the difference is at all outside the realm of Alimida simply playing better.

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t know what to think about nacho.

I think his treatment of the Farkran slot is off, as previously noted.

Thinking that Farkan is unreasonable or wrong at points isn't mutually exclusive with thinking that he's town as shit. Do you disagree with the case? Do you think Farkan as mafia would play a game that looks like this?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, can we compromise on Bingle? What do you think?

I'll compromise if you can sell me on someone outside of Bingle and Chemist having a significant chance of being scum. I'll compromise if you can sell me on Chemist having a significant chance of being town.

[Nachomamma8]

This........is enlightening. This has not been even remotely helpful in figuring out Chemist's alignment, but this is a man dedicated to signing up for games and posting <100 words for their entirety, a patron saint of the Laconic tradition, absolutely dedicated to winning games with the least amount of effort and words possible.

This is by far the most effort he has put into any mafia game ever, I apologize for any previous complaints, godspeed.

Weird.

Chemist was the last game we played together an outlier???

[Nachomamma8]

This........is enlightening. This has not been even remotely helpful in figuring out Chemist's alignment, but this is a man dedicated to signing up for games and posting <100 words for their entirety, a patron saint of the Laconic tradition, absolutely dedicated to winning games with the least amount of effort and words possible.

This is by far the most effort he has put into any mafia game ever, I apologize for any previous complaints, godspeed.

Weird.

Chemist was the last game we played together an outlier???

What game was that

The game where you hammered the scum that most people thought was town??

[Nachomamma8]

But it wasn’t that you were calling him wrong that bothered me, it was more like you were calling him disingenuous there.

I wasn't calling him disingenuous in the post you've highlighted but I probably called him disingenuous and called him town anyways. Do you think that ScumCho is entirely unable to track reads and forgot that he called Farkran disingenuous and then called him town anyways or do you feel there should be something I'm scumreading that I'm not or...?

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you think there is scum motivation in defending the lurkers, honestly?

My initial thought was that Chemist as scum wouldn't defend the lurkers because there's no reason for him to stick his neck out for them.

My second thought is that Chemist defended the lurkers so he could sit back and take potshots at the townies pushing the lurkers and then have a place to sit after the lurkers are lynched. I think his tone is as flat and uninspiring as Ben Stein giving the State of the Union Address and I really can't find someone who I'd rather kick out of the playhouse than him.

[Nachomamma8]

@Farkran:

I'm not calling you townreading you for how bad you are at being town. I think that you are wrong, but as I've said before I don't think that you are bad.

I also called you a bad listener but that's actually a shitty thing for me to say; didn't realize that English wasn't your first language until I did some browsing on your meta and so instead of being an obstinante jackass I will make a more measured attempt to clarify myself in the future.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that you are town because your progressions (how your reads on players change as the game goes on) are extraordinarily deep and I think that the path you are taking now with regards to your scumreads (Replica, Chara, Hectic) are people who are either very strongly townread (Hectic) or are strong players who would be daunting for scum to go against. I don't think any of those pushes are likely to gain traction based on the way they carry themselves and the number of people townreading them. I don't think that scum tend to put in effort unless it feeds an agenda and I don't believe you'd push that group if you simply wanted to look town. As a result, I believe you are either arrogant scum (looking for a challenge), or town who believes that they have something.

[Nachomamma8]

"Arrogant scum" is pushing it, I think he's more risen to the challenge of the game. Letting town continue to rack up spares is death, and most scumplayers think that unless they take control and lead they're not really proving themselves as players.

I'm one of those players and there's a difference between "taking control" and "pushing players widely read as town and also have clout for absolutely fucking no reason". The former is normal and good. The latter is batshit.

[Nachomamma8]

State of Nacho right now seems to be that there are two pivot points currently: the first and most important is Farkran's alignment, and the second is Bingle's alignment.

My preference currently is to lynch Chemist because I believe I have the game solved. Lynching Chemist now does two things - 1) if correct, it removes plenty of friction (in particular surrounding Replica and Farkran) and gets them reanalyzing. 2) If incorrect, it proves that my worldview is incorrect and so there's something shady in the state of Undertale. I also thought it did the same for Psyche but apparently his solve is different from mine. My second preference is a Hectic/Psyche Spare simply because I feel the case for them being town is the strongest and we definitely need to spare one of these two before they both die by bullets. My third preference is a Bingle lynch; forces me to focus in on where my reads are wrong, not AS helpful (if he's scum Replica reanalyzes, if he's town a bunch of people do), but if we aren't going to spare the people who seem to be the likeliest of being town then I think we need a chance to see if we're on the right track or not.

[Nachomamma8]

The only way that I think we reach some sort of resolution wrt Farkran's alignment is some kind of appointment where a couple of people either metadive or chat about his posts as a whole. I am reluctant doing such a thing because I have limited time and don't really want to spend time doing something completely useless, but will likely do the thing anyways, just not within the next 48 hours.

With Bingle it likely takes time - does he do something, does he float in the ether eventually. Will he help us catch scum? So I'm willing to lynch here, I just see waiting on him to get more than a day of posting in to be a better bet then killing him now.

[Nachomamma8]

I have nothing new to say. I don't know what you're expecting from me, so I reiterated my position. I'm not going to waste my time pounding my head against a brick wall re: you or Farkran; I don't believe that it's going to be productive in the least bit. Your meta on Farkran was superficial and incredibly biased; I would like to spend a day diving a little deeper - pointing out a couple things to you, you pointing out a couple things to me. This is the only way I can see my kind being changed.

Bingle just got here today. There's a chance he does something that make people change his mind on him. That's not going to happen on Farkran; either people on one side of the fence get taken out of the game or people convince other people on his alignment; I don't think that engaging him on things is particularly useful since it's just more of the same.

[Nachomamma8]

I think we fight today

If we hit scum, spare tomorrow
If we hit town, fight tomorrow

I agree.

[Nachomamma8]

>"farkran is too stubborn"

>Literally everyone else in this game fails to reconsider the most obviously scummy interactions around a general consensus townread slot when the ONLY one pushing hectic is me and you are ALSO townreading me. I'm sure that scum is just afk and throwing, because that's all that any scum that ever existed is capable of doing.

Good luck sparing the slot who is townreaded by everyone

Yes, you are absolutely being stubborn. You're complaining about everyone else in the game having a townread that you don't share and complaining about them not reassessing when everyone else in the game having a single townread and you refusing to listen to the possibility of it being correct. This is the definition of stubbornness and the fact that you are being so angsty to the degree that you are means that you are losing the respect of the playerlist as a whole which means that if you are onto something with your scumreads then no one's going to listen to you. I've said it before, but stop reading to respond. Take a step back and make sure that you're actually listening to people.

[Nachomamma8]

his post killed me.


Yas bitch. That’s what I’ve been saying all game!!

Who are the two people you're willing to lynch today?

[Nachomamma8]

Or C - scum going along with sparing the consensus townread because it's not worth trying to chip away at the correct read of 6 separate townies.

[Nachomamma8]

Or C - scum going along with sparing the consensus townread because it's not worth trying to chip away at the correct read of 6 separate townies.

Meh. 6 separate townies formed a perfect, unanimous townbloc and agreed with each other on sparing one more town. I wish i played with towns this good every time i rolled town.

It's just out of my grasp how *i* am the stubborn one out of the group, when literally no one has been willing to reassess their read of Hectic over two full in-game days, to the point that they don't even take into account the POSSIBILITY that they are being pocketed. This smells of TMI miles and miles afar, but then again Psyche was doing the same and he has just been conftowned by death, so i don't even know what to say.

I really don't want to repeat a Normal 2106 situation so i'll just shut up, we can talk postgame if you are town, otherwise i still think you have a fairly high scum equity.

I didn't say anything about a perfect townbloc, just that 6 separate townies came to a townread. Some people had stronger townreads than others, some people were just sheeping - doesn't mean that they all were right, doesn't mean that they all were wrong.

I understand the position you're in currently - last Undertale they spared Rakan Day 1 and everyone in the game was townreading Rakan except for me (he was town) - I'm willing to talk and reassess that read today (am currently going through your big case now), but, again, I think that it's important for you to take a step back because a number of townies ARE townreading Hectic and I don't think you've really considered their reasons for doing so. Thinking that you know better than basically everyone else is being stubborn.

[Nachomamma8]

I literally do not understand why, out of all the things to do right now, Nacho is focusing on reading Farkran's case on an already-spared player.

It's on my list for checking Farkran, but like, there are so many more avenues for him to take right now (See: Actually trying to read or engage with Amrun)

We have a full day to play. Why does it matter where I start?

[Nachomamma8]

Here Replica introduces himself with a slight scumlean of Chara, on the account of "ingratiating with Sujimichi" - as if Replica knew beforehand suji was town, but wanted to distance from Chara. He also points out how Chara and Hectic are interacting weirdly in the second part of this post.

Replica didn't point out that Hectic and Chara were interacting weirdly, he said that it was weird that they had been interacting all game and Chara hadn't noticed that Hectic was providing content before #193. Your first point seems to be fitting the reasons to the read - why does it look like Replica knew that Suji was town? Why is it more likely than town!Replica thinking that Chara was sucking up in a weird way?

Furthering the scumlean on Chara, while at the same time hard townreading Hectic. Look at the bolded part and tell me if a soft chainsaw defense of Hectic makes sense at this point in time, when Replica had just argued with Chara for their interactions, and that gimmicking is not a good reason to townread Hectic slot. Then Replica outright HEALS Hectic, with reservations because of the amount of votes, and NEVER removes that votes for the entire game until Sujimichi happened. KEEP THIS IN MIND¹.

Replica never expressed reservation on the # of votes, he expressed reservation because of the people who were voting (Chara and I). I don't know that I see Replica saying that Chemist moving his heal vote from Hectic to Asriel as a chainsaw defense and don't really understand your perspective here - Hectic had posted a bunch and was an active contributor and Asriel hadn't done anything worth being spared (as you noted early after you replaced in), so moving one's vote from someone who had posted and contributed to someone who hadn't done jack shit IS wack.

Hectic willing to spare Replica. Why? Never voted for him though.

I agree that Hectic being OK with sparing Replica here was strange.

Replica trying again to pocket Suji - note this was before Sherlock pointed out the townslip, and therefore before Suji's FN claim as well. Look at the bolded: first reason to townread suji is sparing Hectic. Also Replica was nullreading me at the time.

And I definitely agree that Replica's reasons for townreading Suji here were poor. I don't think that necessarily translates to

Chara HEALS Replica here, switching its 77 vote on Hectic, in a gamestate where Hectic was L-1 from a spare hammer and had intent from Suji. Look at the bolded though: Chara is not strong on townreading Hectic at this point, whereas Replica is its highest townread.

Why do you think that Chara does this if it is partners with Hectic? Chara's posting implies that it is still strong on townreading Hectic, just getting cold feet on actually pulling the trigger on Hectic being spared, which I think is pretty understandable.

Replica trying again to pocket Suji - note this was before Sherlock pointed out the townslip, and therefore before Suji's FN claim as well. Look at the bolded: first reason to townread suji is sparing Hectic. Also Replica was nullreading me at the time.

I agree that Replica's reasons for townreading Suji here sucked. I don't why having bad reasoning for townreading means that he's buddying up with Suji, and I don't necessarily understand why Suji is a buddy target for Replica as scum here.

[Nachomamma8]

Chara still strongly townread hectic, providing reasons - except, look at my reply to its post 380, several lines above this. All the reasons stated by Chara in 561 were already present at the point in time of 380. Still, Chara is healing Replica now.

This makes sense - disagree with the Replica spare at that stage, but stewing on the reasons for sparing someone and then coming to a stronger conclusion is reasonable enough. I understand why you had this interpretation if you thought that Chara experienced a significant drop on the Hectic townread, but I don't think that was the case.

HEAL: popsofctown this one's not just an unvote, it's really for you, the MVP for all the work you put into running this and for letting me replace in.
HEAL: Hectic but ONLY FOR A SECOND WE STILL ON THE SPARE TRAIN CHOO CHOO

Remember my keep in mind note ¹? The train of votes on Hectic suddenly turned from a reservation to a bonus reason to heal there.

Roughly at this point, Sujimichi townslip was pointed out, and shortly later the long and passionate exchange between me and Replica happened.

.

Hmmm. You're misinterpreting Replica's uncomfortableness with the wagon - 301 implies that he doesn't like Chara and I being on the wagon but I don't see him saying that he was uncomfortable with the number of votes on it. I don't understand the keep in mind note - there was only one that you left and it clearly wasn't connected to this.

Chara starts scumreading me for my push on Replica and nothing else.

...yeah, I don't actually understand that attack at all? Awkward that at the end of the "it is dangerous to cast a fight vote" exchange Chara starts to scumread you based on how you worded a defense as opposed to addressing any of the content itself.

and besides that, even if i don't know if i agree with what they think is best, because we aren't playing math here but mafia (as they said themself)

Here Chara pretty much agrees with

literally the same thing

i will say later in my argument against Replica. KEEP THIS IN MIND².

i think Farkran is scum for reasons besides disagreeing about optimal strategy.

I would be very curious to hear these now, since you are already fighting me in d2 when i argued against Replica

for the exact same reasons you pointed out in my note ²

.

Chara is still agreeing with you here - just also stating that it is scumreading you for reasons OTHER than disagreeing about optimal strategy, which I understand.

At the end of day 1, both Chara and Replica are scumreading me, whereas they are townreading themselves and Hectic. This is pretty much a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense,

there are no other reasons to scumread me at this point

- none of Asriel ISO has been used for a scumcase, which would have been something i would agree with - but i specifically asked if they scumread Farkran because of Farkran, and they said they do.

The bolded is wrong; that isn't how mafia works. The thrust of your point here is "they're scumreading me and there's no reason to scumread me", which is problematic - yes, you are town, and yes, people are scumreading you incorrectly and their reasons are wrong. Doesn't mean they can't be coming from a genuine place.

Last but not least, this. Wow.

I don't think that the progressions on either of those two reads is problematic - Hectic went from scum on Chara to lean on Chara to town on Chara. It makes sense that he's willing to spare the person he's had the most interactions with hands down - that's the person he's put the most effort into reading. Hectic had a lean town on Replica simply grew stronger with time, which makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

It matters because I'm actually trying to put myself in your shoes and figure out what town Nacho is thinking, what he considers a priority and why. Yesterday the town Nacho priority seemed to be to not get forcereplaced. Today so far I really have no clue.

You'd be better off interacting with my posts as opposed to just sitting back and taking potshots - the potshots themselves do nothing but annoy me and make me dread the fact that we likely have to have in depth interactions today for town to have a decent chance of winning a game where it shouldn't be that hard to win. I know that it's been a while since we've played together, but if you're trying to get me engaged with the game, it's actually quite simple - don't be a dick, read my posts. You know that. You've seen it before. Why are you taking this route instead?

[Nachomamma8]

when then it explicity says you are back at the top of its townreads in 570 - HOWEVER still refuses to vote for your spare? Note that this is well before the sujimichi townslip (and therefore the claim). I can only think of two reasons for this if i assume scum!chara: distancing from scum!hectic, or not wanting to spare town!hectic. Then, however, Hectic starts scumreading Chara because of that move, only to reconsider it later when Chara comes back to townreading Hectic.

Chara had two top townreads at that point in time - Replica and Hectic. Why does it matter that Chara was voting one over the other?

Today, Hectic is townreading Chara enough to place it in his spare pool, and is scumreading me because i am scumreading him. This is not progression, it's literally a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense. The only reasons both of you have to townread each other -and scumread me- are because we changed our opinion on you. There is absolutely no other reasons to change your reads other than WE changed our reads. Unfortunately this also applies to Replica, who was scumreading Chara and then reconsiders it exactly when Chara starts scumreading me because i was scumreading Replica, but technically Replica is the most consistent here, so if i had to choose 2 scum and 1 town out of the trio, the town would be Replica. Though, Replica is still a scumread of mine and i could be wrong on either Hectic or Chara - however, it's a given that your interactions do not make sense as a genuine townbloc.

And again you're falling into a bit of a trap here with the black and white - it's not true that the only reasons that exist to townread either Hectic or Chara or Replica is the fact that they're scumreading you and it's untrue that the only reason that exists to scumread you is that you are scumreading Replica or Chara or Hectic.

[Nachomamma8]

weirdly enough starting to bounce to the "chemist might be town" side again - i liked his decision to read the farkran wallpost and his extremely firm townread on farkran out of nowhere, felt genuine.

[Nachomamma8]

To provide a concrete example, i had to reread Hectic's ISO a couple times before realizing that his progression on Chara was scum indicative. Why did i re-read Hectic specifically and not another player? Because i was skeptical about Hectic behavior during the end of d1, specifically starting from his interactions towards Chara. Then, the d2 post where he promotes a spare on its slot rang another bell to me, that resonated with his previous d1 post where he voted Chara. I went back and checked, and found out that the first fight vote wasn't particularly off tonewise or contentwise - but when Hectic enters d2 promoting a spare on Chara, i asked myself what was the purpose of that. How could it be a genuine scumread? Why would hectic place a pretty much vanity FIGHT vote on Chara for so little reason, when he was strong on his own spare (and ultimately on sparing suji too)? Why does Hectic enter d2 with a preference for the 4-spared route and includes Chara in it, after what happend there? I thought of one possible reason: distancing. And that's the second bell that alarmed me: why isn't Chara AT LEAST a bit paranoid of this, instead introducing itself by healing hectic? Why didn't it ask Hectic for an explanation? That is, because Chara accepted the distance put between them as a good thing. That's what led me to think they are the most plausible scumteam right now. Everything that i can think of right now would match this theory. This does not mean it's 100% correct, but i do want to pursue it, engage more with the people involved (nothing from Chara made me change my mind, though), and possibly get a flip to learn more.

This hits me as remarkably genuine, as does the frustration of being accused of being surface level in this post.

[Nachomamma8]

And going through this from the other way around, i still think Chara should be way more paranoid of Hectic. Besides being tonally appropriate, Hectic's content is not top quality, and neither are his actions. Chara was not as confident as Replica, Hectic or Psyche about choosing the spare route, so why is it placing all its faith on a Hectic spare instead of exploring fight possibilities for today?

This seems to be a big sticking point for you wrt Chara - why does it only apply to Chara specifically? Why didn't you think it was scum indicative coming from Psyche, me, Bingle?

1. Hectic has played dozens of games in-between his first and this one. Have you checked MY first game on this site? Newbie 1951, go take a look and tell me the amount of difference there is from that game to this.
2. I have direct experience of the recent town!Hectic, in this game and this townhunt based game. Hectic didn't play poorly at all, it's clear that both his gimmicking and his playstyle have improved greatly, honestly i don't see any issue with scum!Hectic getting vastly better since the two games used as a comparison.

I have no doubt that Hectic will have improved in many aspects when he plays his next scumgame now that he's got a bunch more town games under his belt. However, the scumgame that he's starting from is one where he was afraid to post as scum, which should incrementally improve as he plays multiple scum games but I wouldn't expect the improvement to be this dramatic.

And, embarrassingly found that Hectic posted a recent scum game that I couldn't find for the life of me here, which I'd suggest you'd read through real quick - still problematic as it includes a jester and Hectic just mostly pretended to be a jester, but still think there's a dramatic difference in Hectic actually scumhunting and trying to figure out the game here and instead just pretending to be a jester and fucking around there. Also feel delaying his spare as scum when Suji asked if he wanted to be hammered would be the sign of scum who is confident and in control (and thus felt they'd be able to cash in on the spare down the road) and don't think the profile from this game demonstrates that's who Hectic is as scum based on how he handled his partner getting lynched Day 1 there.

I thought things like picking at the alimida's inconsistency in their townread on him here was also a surprising play from Hectic if he was scum here, as was prodding Suji why they were willing to spare him - from a scum perspective, you're making people feel awkward for wanting to spare you but it makes a ton of a sense from a town perspective, later translates to him also getting a bit paranoid of Chemist for also feeling that he was jumping on townreading him for no reason.

And there are a bunch of small things, but overall it's simply because the level of content that he's produced and the smaller tiny paranoid thoughts that maybe his read here or there is wrong is a big jump from his completed scum games so far. I can go into some of the smaller things if you'd find it productive but I think the delayed spare + talking about why he thought the delayed spare in thread was a mistake is the tipping point from me to "extremely confident town".

1) Scum!Chemist = i literally cannot see a reason for him to push me as a spare unless we are exactly the scum team, which is an immediate no to me.

This is a shallow thought. I do agree that it is a move Chemist is less likely to do as scum than town, but I don't find it impossible for Chemist to spare you as scum - means that there's a possibility for him to make a friend that might defend him from a lynch, means that he's possibly connecting the two of you together in other people's eyes, etc. There is risk carried in it in maybe someone like Replica who is scumreading you will turn on him, but I don't think the risk overwhelmingly outpaces the possible rewards.

Otherwise she could just push to spare her partner and it wouldn't even be a hard feat to achieve.

If her partner is in Chemist/Bingle, then who would the townies be to support her in sparing either? I don't think there's anyone who has Chemist/Bingle on the top of their list except for Replica and one person isn't going to make it happen.

scum!Bingle voting for a mislynch on town!Hectic. I have more of a hard time seeing scum!Bingle turning his read upside down and sparing town!Hectic, though.

Why is that?

[Nachomamma8]

I can't push Hectic/Nacho with such confidence as i was pushing Hectic/Chara (this solve also takes a hurt from Nacho being so confident in Hectic town, though), but i still think a Hectic flip is what we need to progress in this game. He is just at the center of... everything. Regardless of being correct or not, we can move on from there with actually significant VCA from d1 AND d2. I mean, this is also true about me. If i could challenge Hectic to a gladiator 1v1, i would.

Also we have just crossed the 5 days line from deadline, highest wagon is once again a spare. I don't know how i could be more honest about saying that i wouldn't spare hectic even if he is somehow allowed by the mod to show his role PM, just as much as i wouldn't spare myself. I am willing to talk about a compromise lynch. If we don't want Hectic, i would like to go for Chara. If Chara is off limits too, i pick Psyche. Can we talk about this for a while? It's not like i can prevent the majority by myself, but can we please just... talk about our own scumcases to see if there is any common ground?

this is also one of those immensely genuine posts that to me say that there's genuine frustration in not really having people listen to him.
i don't think this is "omg we're going to lose the game" panic.

[Nachomamma8]

I can only see him partner with Psyche though, and i have little reason to scumread him.

I'm not sure if I asked this or not already but why have you ruled out Chemist/Amrun or Chemist/Bingle?

What's most concerning about this post is that Nacho points out the two most pivotal things as Farkran and Bingle alignment, but makes no mention of Hectic's alignment. That's literally the most pivotal thing about this game, for multiple reasons, including but not limited to sorting me, Chara, Nacho and to a lesser extent Replica.

When I said "pivot points", I was more referencing to places where I thought I needed to spend my time in order to make an impact. You are a pivot point for me because I think that you're exceptionally town this game but not getting townread to the extent you should be, and the 4 hours I've spent reading your posts have only confirmed that. Bingle is a pivot point because he's most definitely capable of posting and providing enough to get a confident read on him versus someone like Chemist who is not engaged with the game overall and much much harder to read - if I am right with my general thoughts, then Bingle would be the best lynch today followed by a spare on whichever one of you/Replica survives until tomorrow. My pivot points are mine; I feel comfortable enough with Hectic!town to bet the game on it (a read which I now feel better about after doing a little bit of rereading there) hence "focusing on getting confidence on his alignment" not being a particularly huge concern for me.

[Nachomamma8]

I see...absolutely nothing in this game that is not a natural extension of Farkran's scumgame of Newbie 1958, which had a giant focus on pushing perceived inconsistencies in progressions, accusatory/loaded scenario assertions, and positing teams.

A lot of that perspective follows into towngames, I don't really feel confident in metaing him over what he's done this game but I'd say he generally seems to take a lot more account of motives and perspectives than he's done here, and seems less inclined to make cases and hardpushes than when he's scum based off of that game and Mini 2106.

There is literally no reason to townread this slot, at all, and at this point I kind of just have to accept that people are going to refuse to read into anything but appearance of effort.

I disagree that this game is a natural extension of Farkran's scumgame in 1958; in his scumgame in 1958, he was pretty careful not to make too many new enemies at the same time (his interactions with Evanstar where he calls their altercation TvT almost immediately), and he sort of set out a clear agenda from the beginning of the game and followed it (which I suppose you could argue he was trying to chip away at the townreads surrounding you/Hectic/Chara but then he also pushed me/Psyche as scum possibilities), also had a much, much calmer tone in general.

You are absolutely correct that he seems to be less attached to things in the towngames that I've reviewed as opposed to here; he also seems to be a large degree more thoughtful in his pushes and it's hard to picture the thoughtful and reasonable Farkran of other games as the same Farkran that's also pictured here?

[Nachomamma8]

/am tired, going to bed soon. questions for Farkran:

1) why did you self-vote yesterday? you have this post from NY 2106 where you said that self-voting was "gamethrowing, even if we get info". what made that situation different? did you really think there was a significant chance of you being lynched?

2) i guess i still don't understand your cases against me/hectic/chara. there's not a lot of places in your case where you talk about why hectic is scum independent of everyone else or why chara is scum independent of everyone else or why i am scum independent of everyone else which i thought was just your playstyle but clearly isn't - like i understand you like to think about associatives early but they're not a replacement for having actual reasons. have you read hectic's meta?

3) why do you think there is scum in the group that voted to lynch your predecessor that you thought was scummy and to spare hectic? like how is people agreeing with Amrun that Asriel needs to be pressured and ALSO following the town case on Hectic "too cohesive to be natural"? why would scum cluster together to spare a townie? why would scum cluster together to form a wagon on your predecessor that clearly didn't have a whole lot of bite behind it?

4) can we retread on #722? replica's post was silly but it doesn't make sense for you to jump down his throat as a result of it - what motivation does replica have as scum to post something like that?

[Nachomamma8]

as far as your hatred of sparing bonuses go...

why were you so opposed to the 2-2 route?

if we lynch and do nothing but lynch, we have 4 town controlled kills before we lose.
if we spare twice and lynch twice, we have 5 town controlled kills before we lose, and we get a couple days where universal townreads get to chill with one another and view the game without scum being able to specifically play to them. vca is a little weirder but you get the chance to analyze spare wagons and hurt wagons which seems like it would be strictly better.

[Nachomamma8]

can you also explain the amrun townslip more in depth? and why Replica's post here doesn't qualify as a townslip? my basic understanding of it was that amrun made an obviously wrong misrep of suji during her push there which town are likely to do because tunnel-vision and scum are not because unnecessary risk. my criticism with that reasoning is that it's something that's happened a surprisingly large amount in this game but this is the only "townslip" you found, i don't like you wording it as a townslip because that makes it sound stronger than it was and it's not like this is something you specifically seek out in other games.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum!Chemist could start a spare wagon on me if he hopes for a different resolution - i pointed this out later - but while also pushing a Nacho wagon when nobody besides me was endorsing it? If Hectic was town and Chemist was scum, i would think Chemist would have put much more effort in trying to derail the Hectic spare, but his main effort was put into sparing me instead (since he came back later, when i was at Spare minus 2, without unvoting), which from my POV does not make sense.

chemist - if town - is kinda just floating around and not doing things that make too much sense
chemist - if scum - is kinda just floating around and not doing things that make too much sense

There's probably one person who I don't expect to have a particularly firm or planned out agenda if scum and that person is Chemist. Do you disagree?

I could see Amrun bussing Bingle, or Chemist trying to UTR with Amrun, but as i explained above and earlier, i don't see any significant scum equity in chemist and bingle after d2 eod. Bingle slot is ambigous in a way that could be explained by scum motivation or game disengagement - but it holds true for him too that he didn't unvote my spare when he came back from the V/LA, so i'm more inclined to believe in the towniness of Almidia and disengagement from Bingle.

You said that it would be easy for Amrun to get her partner spared. I pointed out that Chemist/Bingle don't really have support to be spared at this point in time. How does Amrun get her partner spared if her partner is one of Bingle/Chemist?

2) Hectic and Chara have individual scum equity. You have scum equity mostly if partnered with Hectic, at this point. Before the Hectic spare was finalized, there was a chance that scum would take back their Hectic vote - if Hectic is town. Scum priority outcomes should go by: spare scum > lynch town > spare town > lynch scum.

what is your case for Hectic's individual scum equity?

3) My pred was scummy, and that justifies both town and scum being on the wagon. If i was a spectator to this game, i might probably have voted Asriel too. But knowing the Asriel role PM i'm more inclined to believe there was 1 scum on it. This is not all there is to it though - i tried assuming that the full wagon was town after the suji slip, and i found out that the people outside the wagon are townier than those inside it, so i went back to consider pushing a solve of Hectic/1-on-my-wagon. Why wouldn't scum jump onto a lynchbait, in your opinion? What makes you confident that Amrun and Chara are town? What should make me confident that you are town?

i understand why you think that there's probably scum on your fight wagon. i agree. i don't understand 1684, which implies that those same names also being on the hectic spare wagon increases the chances of that group being scum.

[Nachomamma8]

What makes you confident that Amrun and Chara are town? What should make me confident that you are town?

i'm not really confident that either are town, particularly not confident that amrun is town. i'm town but i think the point of the game is that you're supposed to get there on your own.

i want you to talk about this quote again:

This line in particular is the most dangerous thing you have slipped out so far. This means that you don't trust your own reads enough to see them fulfill their purpose. "The DANGER of others trying to use it to start wagons"? What's up with that thought process? You have scumreads because you want to remove scum. You use wagons to remove scum. You are NOT afraid of people wagoning your scumreads - you WANT them to, that's the purpose of scumreading someone.

that seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back wrt your read on replica. i don't understand why - what is the motivation for Replica as scum to say the quoted if it's something he doesn't believe?

[Nachomamma8]

these two posts re: Farkran: what exactly do you mean by the last paragraph in the second post here? i'm reading this as you don't think it was productive at the time to get into a large Farkran discussion, but now (considering your last few posts that go very in-depth on figuring him out) it might be more productive.

or i'm not sure what you mean by "engaging him on things isn't particularly useful."

didn't have the time i thought it would take to engage farkran, didn't have the emotional capacity i thought it would took to engage + talk to others about farkran

pretty sure i understand your position on Bingle, which is that more content opportunities = a better overall read. and i'm assuming Farkran is the opposite, since he already has plenty of readable content?

bingle needed time to post. i needed time to read farkran.

[Nachomamma8]

i think. Amrun is still town.

why?

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you have so much interest and access to Hectic meta, and Hectic only, when in post 122 you say this is the first time you have played with him?

hectic's posting was fun and unique and i had a mafia crush on him early. so i did some light meta-diving to confirm my initial thoughts, discovered the newbie scum game, and things just snowballed from there.

In post 138, you say that metadiving is an important part to your scumhunting strategy, yet if i recall correct you have only metaed Hectic for a large part of this game. You didn't even meta Chemist, currently your highest scumread - correct me if i'm mistaken - or Bingle, the slot who has the most inconsistencies with his own meta as i have been pointing out around d2 end. Hectic is a relatively new player, but he already accumulated dozens of games in his history. Why do you focus that much on towncasing him by meta, and why did you have enough time and patience to look for his scumgames when you didn't do the same for anyone else?

slight misrep on that - i said that when someone drops meta in front of you and you go "i don't use meta!!!" then you're being silly and disregarding an important tool. i didn't meta chemist because we've played together and i don't need a baseline of him. i didn't meta bingle because we've played together and i don't need a baseline of him.

First of all, being on my pred's wagon in d1. As i said, town would have reasons to do that, but it doesn't mean scum wouldn't push for a town mislynch over a town spare when a lynchbait appears. If Hectic is town, because here we're assuming such a scenario, your Replica spare at d1 eod was to focus on promoting the mislynch instead of sparing. When Hectic started scumreading you for it, instead of being suspicious of a very weird push from him, you subconsciously accepted it as if it was correct. You were either complacent or scared, not suspicious. Which is why then you entered d2 with a Hectic spare without any reservations, even if you failed to produce any further scumread or analysis of other people. Looking through your ISO from post 931 onwards (start of d2), you only asked people around without updating any of your solve theories. "Hectic is town, Farkran is scum", period. All the other slots are pretty much null or nulltown. You have no idea what scum is doing from your POV, except for me pushing Hectic/Chara as a double town mislynch, and you don't seem interested in improving that stance.

this case is a bit convoluted. the wagon point is weak. the replica bit i follow but it's again starting from "chara is scum" and finding reasons to fit - why do you think it's more likely that Chara spares Replica to promote your mislynch as opposed to Chara simply wasn't confident in sparing Hectic right that second? i don't understand why Chara had to be suspicious of Hectic getting paranoid of it. i understand your point wrt Chara leaving a huge chunk of the game as null-nulltown Day 2 but i also understand that perspective when Chara was confident in Hectic as town.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I think Bingle could have been spared yesterday if I wasn’t gunning for it so strong. I think thinking I’m partners with Bingle is a little bit silly. I don’t like that thought pattern from you.

who was townreading Bingle as opposed to Cats (2019)?

[Nachomamma8]

farkran doesn't count because farkran didn't want to spare anyone and will never spare anyone
fairly confident chara + psyche were both townreading hectic much harder than bingle and so it'd be hard to convince them to push over to someone else, no?

[Nachomamma8]

like the hectic post you just quoted includes him saying that he wouldn't spare bingle

[Nachomamma8]

2S/2F is the possibly most similar to a full genocide route, yet you still renounce to 2 flip info. We have 5 town-controlled kills in both routes though, because full genocide leads to a 5th lynch in New Home lylo. Of course, assuming you lynch at least one scum in the process, but then it's also true that you can spare scum within the 2S route. Analyzing spare wagon is strictly worse than fight wagons, because you don't get the flip. Even if you are forced to go down the 2S/2F route, it would still be better to lynch first and spare later. A minor mathematical advantage is insignificant compared to flip information, i will never say it enough, just in case we get to play another undertale some day in the future.

no you're right on the numbers i did a dumb thing here.

[Nachomamma8]

i've been open about my bingle tr for a while

Was voting to spare Bingle and very much wanted to.


Chara’s read was nebulous - didn’t want to fight, didn’t want to spare.

Farkran wanted to fight bingle yesterday but today not so much.


My point is not that he was universally townread, but there were two players actively advocating for his sparing and making towncases, so saying there’s no chance of sparing here regardless of what I say is ?????

bingle replaced alimada, who wasn't a universal townread Day 2.
while there were more people than i remembered townreading bingle (i did forget that psyche spared bingle for that hot second), i think it would have been remarkably surprising if the person we spared yesterday was a slot who didn't do jack fucking shit the entire game when there weren't any voodoo reasons to call him town. i don't think this is a ridiculous point to make.

[Nachomamma8]

Farkran's overall game here seems like an outlier based on the other games of his that I read, but I think that might have something to do with being tilted from the minute he replaced in. i think that his hectic read is stubborn (to the same degree that he probably thinks that my hectic read is stubborn) and that if he's town, that's kind of what is making things go wonky for him and the reads that I feel are shallow are really just confbiased. I think that his refusal to make friends with anyone this game except maybe Amrun (who he's still poked at a bit) makes it more likely that he's paranoid town as opposed to scum - I think that as scum he's a bit more careful on what reasoning makes it to thread vs what reasoning doesn't.

[Nachomamma8]

I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.

i agree that you-Bingle isn't a particularly likely team. i think that you-Bingle are an unlikely team because you've been at each other's throats all game; I don't think it's because you had the opportunity to spare Bingle yesterday and didn't take it.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not really great about the game today as opposed to yesterday.
yesterday was sunshine and roses. today is not.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm frustrated that i'm still thinking about farkran at this point. i'm fine leaving maybe one or two people in the CANNOT READ bin but i didn't expect him to be one of them. i think there's a lot to point to farkran being town but then there's also the fact that the man cannot make a scum case or town case on anyone without assuming their alignment or tying it back to the HECTIC IS SCUM theory.

[Nachomamma8]

I think it is only because you’re using it as a reason I could be hard bussing my partner from
Day 1. It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t see town motivation for it.

i agree that you-Bingle isn't a particularly likely team. i think that you-Bingle are an unlikely team because you've been at each other's throats all game; I don't think it's because you had the opportunity to spare Bingle yesterday and didn't take it.

Well I didn’t mean that would be the reason, obviously. But you were saying we could be scum together because it wouldn’t matter if I voted to spare or fight him, he wouldn’t be spared, so my read on him was irrelevant (or at least that’s how I interpreted it).

farkran is townreading you because you could get any one of your hypothetical partners spared.
that doesn't make sense to me - the exchanges that we had circulating around your possible partners was me prodding at the above thought.

[Nachomamma8]

i agree with that.

[Nachomamma8]

and i really don't understand his approach here if scum.

[Nachomamma8]

but i still don't trust him completely.

[Nachomamma8]

I really disagree with Amrun's Alimdia read-they were a townlean for me and going back through the ISO this seems true to me.

Comparing Alimdia's posting here to a recently completed scumgame makes me feel better about the slot, too. There's a lot of throwing out loose speculation and accusations with a lot less emphasis on Alimdia not understanding points or trying to get to the bottom of them.

Posts like Alim's #129, #202, and #211 show a lot more genuine confusion and interest in understanding someone's thinking imo.

I feel a lot better about the slot now. I think Bingle generally isn't framing the argument correctly with the nature of Amrun's read. It might be in reaction to Amrun's #1161 uses hyperbole that can imply it should NEVER be townread, rather than focusing on it not being a great universal tell/it being specific to the player.

I'm solidly off board with either of their approaches.

I don't really understand Replica's confidence in Alimdia based on this meta case.
The first post he calls out is Alimdia voting Sherlock because he doesn't understand why Sherlock voted Hectic early on - how is that "genuine confusion and interest"? how can he claim that's outside of anyone's scumrange?
The other two are Alimdia wanting Sherlock to offer a better reason for Sherlock following JTB's RVS vote which seems like a relatively small thing to harp on - really don't understand why town!Alimdia cares about why Sherlock voted Hectic on the second page of the game to the degree he does, and, again, don't understand how that's out of his scumrange.

[Nachomamma8]

replica is probably my only confident townread at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

Hectic
Replica
Farkran
Amrun
Chara
Nachomamma8
Chemist1422
Bingle

Okay, so playerlist. I'm going to be going one by one through not me and looking at potential teams in this post. It will be long.

Spoiler: Hectic Teams

Looking at game state, I think if Hectic is scum, the partner would be on the spare wagon. Therefore, viable Hectic teams are:

Hectic/Nacho
Hectic/Replica
Hectic/Chara

To double check, this precludes Amrun/Farkran/Chem as buddies. Fark as a buddy is pretty :/ in the first place. I'll check Amrun/Chem voting patterns later for counterindications, but it seems likely that both of them would have spare voted Hectic given a townread there if they were S/S.

Having actually read D1 at this point, Chara's unvote after Suji and Alim expressed hammer intent on Hectic does actually strongly imply that isn't a S/S team, even from a nontown Hectic PoV or a nontown Chara PoV. Fark's insinuations otherwise are pretty :eyebrows: tbh.

Hectic/Nacho is something both Amrun and Psyche discounted, and actually I find myself agreeing there. Nacho put a lot of work into arguing and defending his Hectic townread. I'm pretty sure that doesn't come from a maybe I can get my buddy spared place, and the paranoid part of me that says that's exactly what scumNacho wants, but I don't think encouraging my paranoia is a route that's particularly helpful to go down.

Remaining potential teams:

Hectic/Replica

Spoiler: Replica Teams

Despite my overall townread here, there aren't any Replica teams I'm counting out at the moment. Vote history suggests that scumRep was probably interested in buddying SH, and the only SH pushers early were Hectic and my slot, so maybe slightly less likely there than otherwise.

Potential Replica Teams:

Replica/Farkran
Replica/Amrun
Replica/Chara
Replica/Nachomamma8
Replica/Chemist1422

Spoiler: Farkran Teams

Early lurker policy lynches are rarely busses, especially in anti bus setups, so I think it's a fair working theory that Farkran is not scum with any of [Nacho/Amrun/Suji] via VC 1.5. Additionally, Farkran's murderboner for Chara and Hectic makes them very much unlikely to be buddies.

That leaves

Farkran/Chemist

Spoiler: Amrun Teams

Amrun is pretty clearly not scum aligned with me, but that doesn't help my analysis since I'm ignoring myself for the moment. I mention this because Nacho said we had partner equity and that's bonkers. I'm also fairly certain there isn't an Amrun/Nacho team based on posts like:

1. I don’t really remember Nacho’s scumtells but he’s a good player and seems to be actively sorting and moving gamestate forward. We will do better if form together like two sides of a hatchet so for now I will treat him as town and re-eval as gamestate dictates.

2. It’s a pretty good strategy but I think it leads to an information less day. I think it’s better to proceed with the day as normal for now, but closer to deadline, revisit this. Scum knowing who the IC is will inform their play so as to render the interactions unhelpful. But it’s a good point worthy of discussion.

A) I think it has been made pretty clear that Nacho and I intend to work together at least for now. Chara not so much but it doesn’t bother me. I’m the primary pusher of Sujimichi, and Nacho is the primary defender of Hectic, though I didn’t vote to spare until I decided I agreed based on something Hectic did that was towny. This is all in thread. Chara following us IS interesting, but I think we planned/hoped to be followed so it’s not really THAT interesting until there’s some flips to sort with.

Blowing smoke up Nacho's ass about how good he is and deflecting responsibility for the Hectic spare wagon onto Nacho both come across as unaligned. It's worth noting that Amrun has consistently tr-d Nacho and talks at length about him (108 instances of Nacho in her ISO) which is not what I'd expect from a partner worried about associations.

Amrun also has non teammate spewing interactions with... All of the flipped town. Yay.

Potential Amrun Teams:

Amrun/Chara
Amrun/Chemist1422

Spoiler: Chara Teams

I see nothing precluding either a Chara/Nacho or Chara/Chem team.

Spoiler: Nacho/Chem

Unlikely. Nacho's desire for a Chem lynch yesterday when he's demonstrated the most awareness of the implications of a scum lynch on a 3/1 path doesn't seem aligned in the slightest.

Spoiler: Team Possibilities (Loosely)

Hectic/Replica
Replica/Farkran
Replica/Amrun
Replica/Chara
Replica/Nachomamma8
Replica/Chemist1422
Farkran/Chemist
Amrun/Chara
Amrun/Chemist1422
Chara/Nacho
Chara/Chem

From this:

Hectic: 1
Replica: 6
Fark: 2
Amrun: 3
Chara: 5
Nacho: 2
Chem: 4

Replica/Chara/Chem are the highest priority slots imo. I'm tr-ing Replica, which means Fark is a never-lynch-before-Chem slot and Nacho is a never-lynch-before-Chara slot. Does anyone have strong feelings about Chara/Chem (Individually, not as associatives) that they'd like to share?

Reexamining, my lynch pool for today is Amrun/Chara/Chem. Of the three I find Amrun the most scummy.

Good exercise.
One of the things that placed me a bit higher on Fark than I think I would be otherwise is the fact that I don't really think he can be partners with too many people.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho have you talked about why your Replica TR is confident?

No. I'll likely get there eventually but checking the Replica read is the last thing I'm worried about since the one thing we can all agree on is that Replica is town.

[Nachomamma8]

which is badly distributed confidence on reads.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying that you can't read me because you don't understand the confidence levels I possess (and that's additionally why you can't read Chemist)? Because if so that's an unexpected one but not the craziest one that I've ever heard from someone who doesn't know me?

[Nachomamma8]

From what i have seen in your recent posting and past ISO, you have no reason to firmly townread any in {Chara, Bingle, Amrun, Chemist, Farkran, Replica}. Let's assume that you (used to) townread me based on tone and sincerity, perhaps Chara and Replica too, even though i don't particularly agree with Chara. Why do you pick Chemist over Bingle and Amrun as your top scumread? I understand that you are pairing him with both the other two, but if there is one important thing in this game is to lynch scum. This has been true ever since d1, but today even moreso.

Mmmmmmmm, not quite.
I pressed Chemist yesterday because he feels underwhelming and flat compared to the last game I played with him and because I thought I had an epiphany yesterday with the "oh he's just pushing those who were pushing the lurkers, it's a TMI push!". One of my many weaknesses as a player is that I tend to be a bit bipolar; I'll feel really super strong about something and then I'll temper it later or flip the opposite direction. You'll notice me fighting hard against this tendency today because it's the day we win the game.

At the moment, I'm not pairing shit for shit. I don't have a top scumread. When I get one I'll explain it and you'll know it and everything will be Groovy Tuesday.

[Nachomamma8]

why would that scum player also spare town!Hectic? Let's assume that it could work in d1 to pocket other people, but why would you pursue the same in d2, when you have already spared conftown

because you're scum in a pseudo-townblock and maintaining that townblock is more important than avoiding sparing town day 2 (because of the nature of Day 1, town basically got a free townspare. If you're scum that thinks you won't be able to let town get a single correct spare you're either a god amongst peasant or an arrogant idiot).

[Nachomamma8]

level of confidence displayed by people who voted him is exaggerated, misplaced.

So I get this if you're not me.
But coming from my perspective obviously I feel my Hectic townread was fine and people were persuaded by my conviction, as they often are. So this isn't the craziest thing in the world.

[Nachomamma8]

I gotta shop for some kids, I'll be back eventually

[Nachomamma8]

But I don't really see how almidia ever questioned things like he didn't understand them - the posts you quoted in your meta case were linked to his push on Sherlock for following JTB in an RVS heal vote - not only was it a push that never seemed to include Almidia actually attempting to understand (the flow instead was "what is this? you are scum!), but it lasted way too long and then fizzled out kind of awkwardly.

[Nachomamma8]

2) Hectic made several bad progression swings in d1 eod and d2. I have already talked about Chara (scumreading it for the unvote was ok, sparing it in d2 made no sense at all), but even Hectic push about me is based on bad reasoning. He pushed me for not sparing sujimichi, when i immediately entered the game saying that i wouldn't spare even myself. He never tried to understand my point of view, he never offered a solve of the game that includes scum!me, even when i asked multiple times to talk about potential lynches. Promoting a spare resolution is one thing (which i conceded about just disagreeing), refusing to scumhunt at all is another. This is the same thing Chara did during the whole of d2.

This is understandable, appreciate you taking the time to rehash this for me. I'll make an attempt to think about wagonomics Day 1 more, but that will have to be at a later time - they are not something that's typically front of mind for me.

[Nachomamma8]

This is interesting. Can you tell me what would you expect from town!them and scum!them? Because based on 1721 you don't seem to have a lot of confidence on your knowledge of Chemist. I only experienced a game with town!Chemist, the magireco modded by Tetsuya/Torque. With Bingle, i only have town!him in the cult game modded by Kerset. Chemist is similar to the magireco Chemist, whereas this Bingle is completely different than the Bingle i know. What's your experience?

This is a good question, but unfortunately another one I will have to kick down the curb a little bit. Chemist is inconsistent. I don't have a lot of experience with his scum game, but he occupies a space where I'm confident that he can project town as town but I can't tell the difference between scum Chemist and Chemist that I'm not feeling for any particular reason.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not really great about the game today as opposed to yesterday.
yesterday was sunshine and roses. today is not.

Why? What happened that shaked your worldview that much? Psyche, one of your Tier 1 townreads, has died. Who would you have expected to die? Why are you suddenly having trouble finding scum in this gamestate, when only two of your highest townreads have been removed?

It's like you have a crush on a girl but you're a bit shy, you know? When you're a little removed and just thinking about it you're focused on the possibility of how wonderful things will be if she says yes and you start a relationship together but then you actually are talking and you're nervous taking the plunge and all of the things you have to say go out the window. It's kind of like that.

[Nachomamma8]

Like, i feel that you are trying to adjust your reads to be more and more convenient to your survival, ever since i have been suggesting to lynch you. What have i done that makes me look scummier than yesterday, except moving my vote to you? You know i have been scumleaning you for reasons similar to why i am scumreading Chara, this is not news.

Yesterday, you were considering joining the Bingle fight wagon, but you didn't get the chance to produce content about it because Hectic quickspared himself. Why didn't you consider a Farkran/Bingle solve yesterday? Or Farkran/Chemist? Or Farkran/Amrun? Are you considering any of those today?

If I cared all that much about my survival it's doubtful that I spent time the places that I did. If I was posturing to lynch you it's doubtful I spend all the time I did all day yesterday calling you town and listing all the reasons you could possibly be town. I'm just in an angsty mood so I'll probably doubt you a bunch publicly but I probably won't stab you in the back later today?

I didn't consider a bunch of Farkran/anyone yesterday because I didn't think you were scum. I'll probably try to look into some of those today because I think the "possible teams" lens will prove to be a useful one.

[Nachomamma8]

But at this point I'm promising so many things where I'm pretty sure I'll have to make a to-do list. Or just go the politician route.

[Nachomamma8]

Uh... no, i'm not townreading Amrun. I am townleaning Amrun

[Nachomamma8]

Just a heads up - I'm traveling (again, to Nashville this time) - I'll still get valuable laptop time late night so there shouldn't be a drop off of activity with the exception of today.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho entered the day posturing against me.

I've continually said that I'm not scumreading you. Why do you keep saying that I am posturing against you?

[Nachomamma8]

Actually no I don't want nor need an answer. I'm not scumreading you. Stop acting like I am.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually no I don't want nor need an answer. I'm not scumreading you. Stop acting like I am.

This kinda makes it seem like you’re scumreading him though, just saying.

Being annoyed at someone because I feel I'm repeating myself =\= scumreading

[Nachomamma8]

OK.

HURT: Farkran

I'll be flying out shortly which means that I'll spend my time catching up some time tomorrow - I see that I don't have a whole lot of catching up to do. I still don't think Hectic was scum and I can't see two scum in Amrun/Chara/Bingle so here we are!

[Nachomamma8]

Chara have you read Farkran's other town games at all whether by skim or by something else?

[Nachomamma8]

if you're town i do think it's extremely likely Nacho is scum.

Why do you think this? POE?

[Nachomamma8]

i'd be interested in the process of eliminating teams within Amrun/Chara/Bingle. you might have done this yesterday, i don't remember.

Amrun/Bingle is mainly based on Amrun's tenacity in pushing for Bingle's death. I don't think you hem and haw as much on pressing for a spare yesterday if the team is Amrun/Chara plus if the two people I felt the best about going into today were town would be incredibly depressing. Chara/Bingle kind of works but I feel that Bingle would have supported you more in pushing for the four spare route.

[Nachomamma8]

What are the possible teams that you're working with today, Amrun?

[Nachomamma8]

I ask that because two thoughts. 1) if I'm in Psyche's shoes I'd much rather have town sort out the Nacho/Farkran debacle and shoot Bingle as opposed to the other way around and 2) if we lynch Bingle (who replica was pretty harshly townreading) and he flips town then I'll feel pretty dumb. Would not feel as dumb if Bingle flipped town after we got a scum lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

But maybe that's just me and extra silly.

[Nachomamma8]

The Psyche kill is a surprisingly solid piece of evidence for Amrun being town.

[Nachomamma8]

I’m really ok lynching Farkran today. At this point, I’ll take what I can get. But are we really all just cool with Bingle ignoring this thread?

What are YOUR picks for scum, Nacho

I think that both Farkran and Bingle are scum. I don't see how those two defending each other and both confidently pressing for my lynch makes Chara doubt them together as a team - those two have a path to victory in mislynching me, Psyche shooting Amrun, then hoping new blood shits the bed in LyLo. Me/Bingle have a route to victory in mislynching Farkran, not by the active one of the scum pair defending town and bussing and the inactive one attempting to mislynch town. Me/Farkran have a route to victory that doesn't mean blitzing each other at the beginning of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

What are you doing on a Farkran green flip? What on a red flip?

1) Getting shot, I hope.
2) Dancing on your grave.

[Nachomamma8]

I ask that because two thoughts. 1) if I'm in Psyche's shoes I'd much rather have town sort out the Nacho/Farkran debacle and shoot Bingle as opposed to the other way around and 2) if we lynch Bingle (who replica was pretty harshly townreading) and he flips town then I'll feel pretty dumb. Would not feel as dumb if Bingle flipped town after we got a scum lynch.

Why do you assume Psyche would shoot me? He was tr-ing me just as hard as Rep when he died. Hell, that's the most cohesive reasoning I can think of for me being scum (Psyche not being likely to shoot me so I pushed hard for the lynch yesterday).

I think that you and Farkran made a mistake by shooting Psyche when you did. I think Farkran misread his confidence level in those Farkran/Bingle townreads but I think with Psyche having hard townreads on 4/5 of the living means that he's going to reanalyze and I don't think that process is going to end up looking too good for you.

Psyche was also the only one who truly appreciated me for who I was this game so it only seems right that it will be him that puts a bullet between the eyes of the last of our enemies.

[Nachomamma8]

because Farkran gets much harder to lynch if I flip town.

I don't think this is true at all but I'd love to see you try to explain it.

[Nachomamma8]

I don’t think a farkran/nacho team is out of the question but it’s not great, no. Nacho’s treatment of the farkran slot has been pretty weird either way and I can’t decide what it’s more indicative of.

I don't see a world where Nacho as scum makes a big ass town case on someone who he has to mislynch either one day down the road or two days down the road (and then basically doesn't do anything else). I don't see a world where Farkran as my partner starts trying to frame the me vs him scenario since I was working on the gigantic town case on him (continuously saying that I was scumreading him or posturing against him and me saying that I wasn't at all, multiple times).

[Nachomamma8]

IF i am wrong on Hectic and somehow scum allowed his spare for no reason at all, i want to rule out any team including Bingle because he's the only one who wanted to spare me over Hectic during d2, leaving Nacho/Chara, Nacho/Amrun, Chara/Amrun - i think none of these would explain why i am still unlynched though, except those involving Nacho because he was absent for a large part of d2 and d3.

My ideal read of you would be a SL: while i will most certainly question you in the day chat (i don't want any of us to be caught for not interacting properly or not having progression about each other), i will not bus you intentionally over anyone else unless the situation gets extremely dire.

It seems like Farkran really doesn't want to lynch Bingle today. It seems like Bingle really doesn't want to lynch Farkran today. Why do you all think that is the case?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho can you rebut your earlier towncase and give me a viable not me Fark partner suggestion?

There's a smaller range to Farkran's towngame than there is to his scum game. His town game is extremely thoughtful - the level of stubbornness we are seeing here is a caricature of what he thinks his play looks like as town, and is also something that he's leaning on in order to push a scum agenda.

He puts an unbelievable amount of effort and heart into his scum game to the tune of he's a "1 in 100" type of player. It was easier for me to believe he was instead a player who got absorbed in the passion of their nonsense logic as opposed to just a very good scum player. It was easier for me to believe that Farkran and Replica were just arguing over dumb nonsensical shit than it was for me to believe that Farkran was playing a game to the level he was.

There's not a viable partner for him other than you partially because interactions and partially because I'm not willing to flip on those Amrun/Chara townreads and don't really see any reason to do so now - feeling an odd sense of clarity when staring death in the face (which is also why I would much rather see Farkran/Nacho today as opposed to you - dead town Nacho's word seems to be much more trustworthy than one who is living near endgame).

[Nachomamma8]

i really really hesitate to say this now with hindsight but the lack of lynch -> flips looking back hurts. i don't know if we'd be better off today having spared Replica given i would still be scumreading Chemist. i also don't consider sparing Sujimichi or Hectic a mistake, so.

We still have time to make mistakes in order to mislynch people. There's still time to clear shit up before LyLo, and I think if you and Amrun can manage to not lose your shit until LyLo, we will be fine. We need to clear out of Farkran/Bingle/Me. If there is one scum in that group (there is), then we don't lose by clearing it out. If the game is going on after that then we can have paranoia meltdowns and cry ourselves to sleep but until then, it doesn't make sense - just clear out me/Farkran/Bingle first.

[Nachomamma8]

Chara have you read Farkran's other town games at all whether by skim or by something else?

i meant to ask, did you get anything meaningful out of reading them?

Yes. That's why you should read at least the Mini Normal with Menaleaque that he kept referencing earlier or the Mini Theme of the same #.

[Nachomamma8]

Or don't, kind of late at this point? Really you just need to vote one of me or Farkran and it doesn't so much matter which as long as you clear the rest of the group out after one is dead.

[Nachomamma8]

looking again at Nacho's reasoning for eliminating teams in Bingle/Amrun/Chara i feel like the only one with a lot of strength is Bingle/Amrun. it seems like an easy way to vote Farkran.

An easy way to vote Farkran for scum Nacho would be to spend his time doing literally anything else yesterday. Just saying. It's also true - the team thing isn't the only reason I'm voting Farkran now. I feel his flip, which vindicates both myself and Hectic, leads quicker to a town win. I feel lynching Farkran scum will be more exciting than lynching Bingle scum. I like most of Jingle's posting (but still feel he is scum) - I don't feel the same about Farkran. I feel best about my townreads on you and Amrun.

I've been scattered this game and contradicted myself early and often, as Farkran has attempted to point out. This does not make more more likely to be scum. I don't tend to flail all over the place as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho: why are Amrun and i your best TRs going into this day?

Gut. Feel more of an emotional connection to you two than to either Bingle or Farkran.

[Nachomamma8]

Like there's too much overthinking going on at this point in time. You trust your townread on Amrun. There's not a good reason for you to distrust a townread you've had on Amrun all game.

From there, Farkran is still peddling the same line of garbage that he's been peddling the entire game. There is a clear scum agenda to peddling this particular line of garbage if he is scum.
Either he is an insane off-the-wall player ("scum wouldn't spare town D2, that's wild!!! is still a central point of the worldview he's held all day), or he's scum. His other completed towngames show a reasonable and thoughtful and very good player - a player who hasn't been present in this game with us.

Meanwhile, in your pool of three people, two people are mutually townreading each other and have person #3 at the bottom. The solution of "oh they're defending each other because giving town the catharsis of a scum flip here if they don't have to is insanely dumb" seems obvious to me - do you really disagree?

[Nachomamma8]

i'm confident psyche will reevaluate before he shoots. believing otherwise seems silly.

[Nachomamma8]

this is really vague and i'd love if you could elaborate. the problem i have with it is mainly that Amrun and i are i believe more emotional players in a very general sense, while Farkran and Bingle are the logical type.

i do like your argument for scum Farkran. also i know gut is gut and you can't always explain it but it'd help me if you gave it a shot.

This is the end, this is the end
You wait to find that I am still here
And you've been waiting for the light to shine
Wake up, wake up, wake up
I'll be the answer to the question I can't answer
It's a question you can't spit it out
Can we find
We find, we find a way out
A way out

[Nachomamma8]

the problem i have with it is mainly that Amrun and i are i believe more emotional players in a very general sense, while Farkran and Bingle are the logical type.

I don't believe this generalization is worth much at all. The reason why I feel an emotional connection with the two of you is deeper than "these are emotional players versus the logical players in the corner", this is not my first rodeo. You feel similarly wrt Amrun, she feels the same wrt you - me weaving lies to put words to the emotion that we both feel isn't particularly useful at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

So you're going to assume that Psyche is going to shoot me on the basis that you think you can guess how psyche would reevaluate using information that neither of us have in addition to the information readily available in the thread when people are saying at large that I've been acting more town recently than before?

Two thumbs up.

I might have said that you've been more townie recently, and if I did, I apologize because I've been a big fat liar. You've been more reasonable lately - you've provided sound logic which doesn't rule you out as scum in the least bit. I can't see Psyche shooting anyone that isn't you.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho just said that he doesn't think Farkran gets harder to lynch in the wake of me flipping town, and also that there is no viable partner for Farkran other than me. Those are mutually exclusive stances. If you think Bingle/Fark is the team, Bingle lynch in that team is just as game furthering as a Farkran lynch.

I missed you
Let's spend the future talking about the past
How you said goodbye
How I fucked your mind up

[Nachomamma8]

Are they mutually exclusive stances? I don't believe that your town flip makes Farkran easier to lynch because if you flip town then something is super duper hardcore fucked. I'm not willing to entertain scum in making up possible scumteams that aren't the actual scumteam - on the wildly off chance that I'm horribly wrong, I'll find out via egg on my face and then the spoiled dead QT. I will not find out by thinking about Amrun or Chara for the 101st time.

[Nachomamma8]

Juicy.

Vote: Amrun

is my initial thought.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm so glad we went neutral guys!! Getting new blood in to contribute and to lead midgame is quite interesting.

[Nachomamma8]

I have thoughts and we will go into them, trust. But I’d like nacho to answer me first.

Chara's always been a stronger townread than you.

I don't like your sudden almost change of heart on Bingle yesterday when you were scumreading him the whole game, felt fake. I didn't like your "spicy take - let's lynch Nacho" for obvious reasons.

If Farkran maintained the same scum habits from when he was a wee newbie (aka first newbie game) then he treated you like how he detailed he treated his scum partners (to a T).

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you need an explanation for me lynching you? Why hold off on the opinion?

[Nachomamma8]

Also (this reasoning is just for fun it's not really something that factors into my overall thinking) but Farkran talked about Amrun's scumgame the same way he talked about his own in the "she's not scum with anyone because she'd just be able to win the game and crush everyone if she was".

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you need an explanation for me lynching you? Why hold off on the opinion?

These questions are additionally just rhetorical. I don't like the hedging at the beginning of the day - if she was town I'd expect her to snap back there after she sees me approach so tunnel-mindedly, matter of factly in an effort to lynch her. Amrun needs one mislynch after me so she can't afford to leave herself up shit's creek without a paddle.

[Nachomamma8]

Change of heart?? No. That’s a total misrep. I started the day voting Farkran. I took a detour on Bingle while maintaining that my solve was Farkran/Bingle, and stating that my vote was effectively on Farkran as well. I was very consistent that I scumread Farkran. And actually throughout the day, I liked Bingle’s posting, which I also stated several times.

Bingle was your primary scumread for a long time. Yesterday was the first time you seemed to flirt with the possibility of him being town.

[Nachomamma8]

Today, for the first time, you definitely have an agenda. You’re not trying to sort me or think critically, you’re trying to hatchet your way to endgame.

Had an agenda yesterday as well.
You're correct that I'm past the sorting and thinking critically stage - feel strongly about the Farkran interactions point and so here we are.

[Nachomamma8]

this is news to me. when i pressed you yesterday you didn't indicate this.

Didn't realize it yesterday.

[Nachomamma8]

scum Amrun means she decided to give in and vote her partner, when she could have stayed on Bingle. and it's fair to say Nacho would have hammered it. it's possible she decided to cut her losses, but in terms of having an agenda, i also liked Bingle's posting yesterday and i don't think it's strange Amrun was wavering on it with how they were interacting.

I think it would have looked worse for Amrun if she moved the wagon to Bingle from Farkran - think there would be a much more significant chance of her being shot by Psyche if she guided town to a mislynch at that point.

[Nachomamma8]

i do find it interesting that Nacho encouraged me to lynch in him/Bingle/Farkran and to trust my Amrun TR yesterday, and when i asked about his confidence in me and Amrun he didn't differentiate between us. but today Amrun isn't as good of a townread, and her wavering on Bingle is scummy.

Man it's almost like I didn't expect Bingle to flip town and me to be living to see this day. It's like I was woefully unprepared to engage in a 1v1 with anyone at this point and since I thought the game ended with a Farkran and Bingle flip.