Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Chara]

hello everyone! those of you i know and those i don't.

i really enjoy townhunting setups myself.

HURT: Billy Pilgrim
the youngling who isn't from the Underground at all proceeds to punch the arm of one who is. it's definitely a joke, they're absolutely joking. this is how normal kids play.

[Chara]

i've never met a talking flower before.
but we can play if you want.

[Chara]

HEAL: Chara

there you are! i was waiting for you. i had to say hello by myself.

[Chara]

HEAL: Asriel

I think him being openly nervous about the intro is towny

lightly, but still something I wanna go off of

Asriel's nervous about everything.

Also, townpoints to the first person who guesses my flavor!

so very close. you only missed the r.
your prize is... nothing.

[Chara]

HEAL: Billy


HURT: Sherlock

who are you talking to? there aren't any humans here.

also, i like the detective more than Billy. but you're already friends with Billy, aren't you?

[Chara]

HEAL: Hectic

[Chara]

i'm feeling a little down but the flower scares me...
sorry... i'm not sure why i'm telling you this i don't even know you...
sorry... i just made this more awkward i'm going to fly away now and come back later...

ok i'm back... papyrus says he liked Billy pointing out Chemist's towny entrance...
the flower said he didn't like Sherlock's comments on townhunting vs scumhunting... but it doesn't make him scum... it's just a weird take...
bye...

it sounded more like Billy was saying Chemist's entrance gave reason for him to be... unfriendly, rather than towny. i am curious about where the thought that Chemist normally makes a scummy entrance comes from.

of course it's weird that the detective isn't as excited about making friends. who wouldn't be? but encouraging those who are claiming their prowess at townhunting to really prove it doesn't seem a bad idea to me.

[Chara]

who do you think we should be fighting... the

KING

is asking...

Dad's asking who we should be fighting?
we're all here to make friends, so. no one. is that the right answer?

(don't tell him i punched Billy, would you? but also, haha, he ran away. what a baby. i wonder if that lizard girl Sujimichi will be more fun?)

besides that... maybe we could invite one of those quiet kids to a game of hide and seek.

[Chara]

good! i'll start counting.
1...
2...
3...

[Chara]

17...
18...
19...

...is someone talking about knives?

[Chara]

Artist who formerly was not Chara, a towncore is nothing if not tested. Games with limited flips are decidedly anti-town. Please don't get lured to the "we find town and we win! easy game!" siren call.

while i prefer townhunting, i don't believe that makes this "easy". you do make a good point i hadn't fully considered, in that only sparing our supposed friends leaves the possibility that they are not so loyal as they appear, with no way of knowing the truth.

and a true friend would probably forgive me if i HURT them...
excuse me, fought them.

[Chara]

@Nacho, hectic is an established gimmicker - if you didn't know that already - and I don't doubt for a second he would be incapable of doing it as scum given his extensive practice.

what do you think of him so far? he has many faces, but i don't dislike them... even if a few are a little annoying.

his comedy routine aside, he's taking the very important process of dividing friends from not-friends seriously enough.

[Chara]

mostly fun and games, sure, and while it seems hide and seek has been cut short and now we're playing the

real

game, i don't agree that it was all empty fun to start.

[Chara]

what i think you're missing is Nacho's point. if we spare our guranteed friend and send them away, what have we learned about the ones whose loyalties we can't verify so cleanly?

we need blood first.

if there's some other reason... i don't know it.

[Chara]

If you could point out what you view as otherwise that would be helpful. I did not see anything I view as not joking.

Mom gave me some homework, so i need to get that dealt with before i get in trouble...

but i don't mind helping you later.

[Chara]

Sorry, how is Sujimichi trying to blend in? He's barely posted

A) I mean, that’s pretty much what a lot of scum do - post only as much as necessary.

B) the tonality of his post is very awkward and buddying of nacho who is obviously one of the stronger players in the game, especially at that juncture.

Tell me

, why do you see his townread of Nacho as buddying rather than genuine? Do you

disagree

with it?

do all talking flowers sound this suspicious? or, it might just be that gleeful look on your face...

what answer are you hoping to find by asking this question you already know the answer to?

[Chara]

I understand we need to Fight at some point. I do not see the downside to delaying that to Day 2 with a guaranteed Spare.

what we gain is the means to protect that friendly neighbour from any danger.
what we lose is probably something like... valuable intelligence on the motives of our playmates. blood? along with that neighbour's contribution to our chat.

and it doesn't sound very fun to sit there and let our game play itself for the first day.

[Chara]

who's

an idiot?

[Chara]

i'm still curious about what you were looking for with your leading.

[Chara]

do you think scum would rub shoulders with someone who

isn't

a target it makes sense to befriend?
if i wanted to gain the trust of a larger group, i would probably also aim for someone who looks trustworthy to that group.
not that i would ever do that.

but we've established timing is the issue here, haven't we?

[Chara]

No idea why you've voted for hectic based off your post

i believe he was following along with JTB, or as i've realized is a much more exciting name, Bartholomew.

what don't you like about the detective besides the way he talks?

[Chara]

mostly fun and games, sure, and while it seems hide and seek has been cut short and now we're playing the

real

game, i don't agree that it was all empty fun to start.

If you could point out what you view as otherwise that would be helpful. I did not see anything I view as not joking.

besides the beginnings of a discussion that has continued until now on the merits of concentrating only on finding friends vs. a healthy amount of bloodshed in the name of progress, meaningful conversation has started as early as this little exchange.

Well we can get on opposite sides of that, I may as well get my scumread of him out of the way. Also, your opening was way less scummy than usual, and you usually do a really scummy opening as town. Worried about something?

HURT: Hectic

which would be why i punched Billy in the first place. i, erm... no hard feelings. just because you look similar doesn't mean you're the same.
...you look really similar, actually. ludicrously. are you just wearing a different shirt?

then came the detective, who in spite of his fancy book-words, had some things to say that probably aren't jokes, capped off by a comedy routine we all know and love by now.

HEAL: Billy


HURT: Sherlock

you know, the more i look... and especially the more i look at the posts from that annoying dog and his army of clones, who fittingly enough call themselves Hectic, the more i see there's content on just about every page of this game! i don't know if it's worthwhile to keep repeating it. by the third page it's basically no fun and games at all, except that it is. Nacho's entrance made a bit of a splash, but i take back what i said about him starting the game up.

i was expecting this to take more time...

[Chara]

Did something interesting happen?

oh come on, Asriel.

we're the interesting ones, it's our responsibility to make it so. not the other way around!

[Chara]

No idea why you've voted for hectic based off your post

i believe he was following along with JTB, or as i've realized is a much more exciting name, Bartholomew.

what don't you like about the detective besides the way he talks?

JTB's vote on hectic was an RVS I'm pretty sure (his first post) , so..... following along... with an RVS vote?
Also, Why are you answering for SherlockHolmes?

because you asked a question that's answered in the post you quoted, and i assumed you didn't understand what he was saying because of how he speaks.

[Chara]

Thank you. Aside from the slot I replaced, I was not able to see anything; however, I will re-read Hectic's post with a focus on removing his jest from his points.

your repeated thanks is making it hard to want to fight you... stop that.

[Chara]

what if we go for 2-2 and try to get the FN to be the "set-aside" player?

actually I'm not really sure how that works to be honest

not that way. the set-aside player is someone who's dead, so we already know their loyalties.

and i'd rather not argue more about why i don't want to reveal our neighbour, so instead i'll assume Nacho agrees with me given his call for blood, and wait for him to say something convincing once more. being lazy is fun and easy!

[Chara]

Then perhaps you should not.

i'll think about it.

i'm getting kind of bored...

what do you think of me, Sujimichi? did you find anything interesting from Hectic?

[Chara]

...so i thought the detective was only translating what he said earlier. i didn't even read those.
that's embarrassing.

[Chara]

Sujimichi: i'm pretty sure i explained why i punched Billy a few times now. i haven't moved it yet because there isn't anyone exciting to punch quite yet. besides you, i guess.

what do you mean by deferred? i answered you loud and clear!

mister detective: in this case, i think Pine's disappearing act probably has something to do with some serious, adult thing that's more important than making friends. i do also have it good authority he likes hanging out with the delinquents more than the nice ones, though!

i'm confused about the rest. it sounds like you don't agree that Hectic wouldn't be quite so annoying if he were against us (so, disagreeing with Nacho), but then you say it's a reason he's friend material! because you don't think the way he acts is a good way to get him in our good graces. so which is it? did i misunderstand how your point is different from Nacho's?

and about Chemist... i dunno, looks fine to me. he seems pretty relaxed. i like people who are easily to get along with.

[Chara]

HURT: Amrun

this

does

feel more like a round of thundersnail than an exciting battle between good and evil, i can't argue with that.
but Amrun, i'd like to poke the tiger here and see if we can't jumpstart this game a little more, given you expressed a regret at not doing that so far.
i was thinking your fight with Sujimichi was about as low-stakes as mine, so why not fight Asriel with Nacho instead of just nodding at it?

Sujimichi made a good point about who i was fighting. i did think Billy's initial action was suspicious, and wanted to find out more, but it can't do that now and sitting there isn't going to do anything.
Sujimichi didn't exactly impress me when they decided to tag in, but the way they pressed on their friendly neighbourhood idea, and especially the end of 226, really does feel like Sujimichi is just a straightforward sort!
we might not ever be really

good

friends, but i don't think someone with too much to hide usually responds to me like that.

Asriel's definitely boring me here... i don't mind getting him into things, either.

though... i do hope your volcano metaphor remains a metaphor. he's still my brother. if anyone's going to be holding him over a volcano, it's going to be me.

[Chara]

Also to anyone who wants to spare D1 and is voting to fight, or vice versa, why?

I have an idea but I want to see what the rest of y’all are thinking

i was excited about townhunting to start, but no flips is pretty boo.

Nacho explained better than i could why i didn't like the friendly auto-spare idea.

but i'm interested in your idea anyway.

[Chara]

i changed my mind about the flower. he's my favourite. bring him back, would you? that ghost is too agreeable, and the skeleton strikes me as very...

self-righteous.

[Chara]

at the risk of asking the obvious question... why's that?

[Chara]

v/la for two days. this is a minor overestimation of how long i'll be unable to post, i hope.

[Chara]

the optimal mechanics walls.... here they come.

Bartholomew replica, this is something i really really don't want to argue all game, so i'll probably continue what i'm doing for now, until such time that i inevitably feel the need to argue for some punching. and believe me, the time shall come.

however: you have style, i'll give you that. even if you're being a big nerd about it.

[Chara]

HURT: Asriel


@Chara: why aren’t YOU pressuring Asriel as well if you agree?

But I do too, and I did say earlier I feel Asriel is off.

I simply didn’t want to let up on Sujimichi but his more recent contributions have definitely been better.

Let’s consolidate and choo choo.

because i'm pressuring you!

at least, i wanted to, but if you're also having access issues (hope it all works out) i'm at a bit of a loss. in general wagons on players who are away for rl are... uninteresting at best, uninformative as far as reactions from the wagonee go at worst.
i do dislike how you didn't vote until i asked why you hadn't, but your feeling on wanting to stay on Sujimichi is pretty why i still had my finger on the button there, so i understand that.

[Chara]

275: me? two-timing? i'm the most honest child you could ever meet.
the way my conversation with Sujimichi went made me like them more. they were very matter of fact with their read on me, and i felt like i was being figured out some.
it feels either short-sighted or assumptive (is this a word? i'll make it one anyways) to say there are only two ways to approach someone you scumread, towntelling.
and more importantly... thanking me a couple of times didn't have much to do with the read getting better. that'd be pretty

bizarre

, wouldn't it?

[Chara]

#193, well after they've been interacting with Chara all game, is the first time it notes that there is plenty of content from Hectic...which is really surprising for someone who regularly read Hectic's posts and interacted with them.

now if we're getting into bizarre takes...

what is your point here? that it's strange i didn't say "that annoying dog has been contributing this whole time" earlier?

except that 192 happened because Sujimichi claimed nothing on the early pages was real content, to which i replied there was plenty. and i'm pretty sure i mentioned Hectic specifically as someone who's been 'doing things', so to speak, epecially considering we had discussions before 192 about how things were going with the gaggle of friendship-hopefuls that were gathered.

i don't really know how to word this... that it's both incorrect, but also a strange thing to focus on. who needs to be told Hectic is producing content?

...admittedly, Sujimichi. but who besides Sujimichi would need to be told? you can just read Hectic's posts.

[Chara]

HURT: Asriel

i know your post wasn't entirely directed at me, Replica, but you aren't wrong.
i will hopefully do a better job of being myself tomorrow.
i don't know if it's a better idea to make friends or enemies right now. i know there's been a great deal of debate on the subject, but my ignorance of things like 'logic' and 'strategy' sorely hurts my competence in parsing them.

one thing i really don't understand is saying that lynching today is a waste. i know that the rules are quite different in this sort of game, but is it really a waste? it's one thing if i'm very confident we're sparing town, but while i certainly enjoy Hectic's company i'm not sure i would bet the game on it.

as for Replica themself, i find this persona one that's likely difficult to fake.
i should really pay more attention to what alimdia is saying as well, if only to be thorough.

[Chara]

Pine might be someone i'd wrestle with as well, i don't know if there is much difference between them besides Asriel being the one to have ignored me a few times now. i know he's busy with his chores, but really.

[Chara]

i should go into more detail regarding that Replica, starting with, yes, you're right that my memory failed me a bit. i liked Sujimichi's 217, but that only came after i asked about their read on me, which is what i meant by the "figuring me out". it seemed they were properly tracing my progressions and, even if they didn't have a conclusion, the thought process made sense, and what i disliked initially did not seem like a willful dismissal of what happened early in our game.

similar to Replica, who also responded to their mistakes by reevaluating, but being consistent enough in what they found important or not.
and besides that, even if i don't know if i agree with what they think is best, because we aren't playing math here but mafia (as they said themself), the fervor with which they work to both keep engagement up and keep the thread readable is something i like.

being bored... or allowing apathy to fester due to it... i don't have a good conclusion about that or its relationship to pursuing fighting or friendship. so to whoever it was that said to follow whichever option you feel most strongly about... i suppose that's the goal for today.

[Chara]

Regarding

Asriel

, they are as afk as Pine, yet they are getting more attention that Pine. This makes me think that maybe Pine is scum here.


Regarding

Replica

, I would reserve comment until they respond to Amrun's question.

i don't know if i agree. they're both being quite antisocial, but i know Pine well enough to say his inaction is unlikely to be indicative of anything.

Asriel i know even better, of course, but... this may not be my Asriel. in the same way as that flower who spoke like he knew me...
anyways, neither option is very

fun

, but while Pine seems fully checked out, Asriel appears aware enough of what's been going in.

[Chara]

i am certainly enthusiastic about the idea of being exactly who you are, and no one else, but i must admit that Sherlock's eloquent wordsmithing and measured tone make it difficult to analyze him meaningfully without diligently working through his logic.
so...tomorrow, perhaps.

[Chara]

where do you see scum, Chemist?

[Chara]

townreads are my strong suite more than anything.
i've been thinking about this while i've been working.

what

is

the main thrust of your Hectic read, Nacho? i agree he's towny, in that he is engaging with the game and giving reads that make sense, but i don't know if that's worthy of an absolute locktown read.

i know we only have a day left, which is unfortunate, but in terms of spare targets i am most sure of, it would be Replica more than anything.

HEAL: Replica
there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.

Hectic isn't a bad spare either, but i am curious what makes him so locktown to you.

and alimdia, i asked you what reads you thought were missing. i'm pretty sure i've given my thoughts whenever it's relevant.

[Chara]

so not quite a day, but an indeterminate amount of time following replacements.

[Chara]

I don't know what motivation scum Chara would have for the switch, but my point was that it was a strange thing to think about sparing people, and classifying the setup as a townhunting one, without properly considering that they don't flip. The theme of my early posts really centered around the one word that kept cropping up in my mind: "bizarre"

if it wasn't clear, i knew that sparing meant spared players did not flip. what hadn't fully clicked was how, fundamentally, not receiving feedback can harm overall usable information.

i'm not sure i feel the same way now. i'm not opposed to fighting, but as much as i believe in the value of The Lynch (as a possibility, a threat, to hold over the heads of players you pressure) as a tool for sorting, it remains that my skills don't currently lie in using it most effectively.
though that isn't the case for everyone, or even the other players in this game.

i'd like to be careful about it, but Nacho deciding to defend me here is something i can't help but like. i do wonder about his list of reads, because from calling Replica "disingenous" (with negative connotations?) i didn't expect a strong townread.
not that i disagree with the conclusion, obviously, but i would like to know where it came from.
i also forget if he talked about why Sherlock is scum, but i still need to put some effort into Sherlock anyway.

[Chara]

where do you see scum, Chemist?

not hectic
probably not you, rep, or asriel
I feel like pine is a cop-out push at this point so slightly lean town there

so that leaves sherlock/nacho/alim/amrun/suji

will probably work through this soon

when you say cop-out push, do you mean you think scum are pushing it, or just LHF?

[Chara]

I don't have a strong TR on hectic, even tho he seems to be one of the few that understands what I'm saying at times. I can't give a TR just because of that. However, theres been so many people independently sparing Hectic, that if he were scum we would eventually lose anyway. I think most people's opinions are quite hard to change, so might as well spare him if everyone is going to afk and not fight.

provided Hectic is town, i think i like this attitude for town more than scum, in that it's going against the grain on a consensus townread but still begrudgingly going along with it. it feels like a weird angle to take if scum.

from a gameplay perspective i don't like it at all. change some opinions, alimdia, isn't that what the rest of your posts were for? if you give up because a hypothetical scum got TRed on day 1, then you give up on playing the game. though i don't believe Hectic is scum.

[Chara]

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

[Chara]

hello Psyche, Farkran, thanks for stepping up.

Chemist: what's the difference between LHF and no-content/null? i understand where the Asriel TR came from, though i don't agree.
it will be nice to see more from both slots, however.

Hectic: about 275, i also found them to be minor things to focus on. but the elaboration on finding the tone duplicitous is i think understandable, especially given the persona i was roleplaying, so i don't find it strange to pick up on necessarily, in hindsight.

[Chara]

Hello everyone, i'm the replacement of asriel. I have only skimmed the thread and the mod ISO so far. By VC 1.7 i noticed that i am consensus scumread (Fight-2) and Hectic is consensus townread (Spare-1). Does anyone want to provide a recap as to why the gamestate is like it is? I will reread anyways, but having a different POV based review would be helpful.

it's been fairly low activity, but invigorated by Replica's replacement, among other things. Hectic's attitude and amount of helpful interactions is why i TR him at least, plus pushing for content here and continuing to do so. delaying his own spare at i believe L-1 is something i like, since i find it likely he'd have had no problems if scum and he decided to tell alimdia (is that who it was?) to go ahead.
thinking on that i might rather spare Hectic over Replica after all, but i TR both of them. and no disrespect meant to Hectic, but i would like to see Replica continue to play in the main thread.

on the fighting side, your slot and Pine's have both been lurking, which is admittedly a rather boring (and bad) reason on its own, but given Asriel was actually checking the thread (while Pine was not) i wanted to press it.

but the game is short and easy to read, i think.

pedit: you're welcome.

[Chara]

we're all in your townreads. why do you have reservations about seeing us vote together?
i believe i explained the reasons for both of my votes in the post you asked for upon replacing in, too.

[Chara]

i don't know if i understand what either of you mean. :>
1) i don't scumread Nacho, and 2) i was referring to being wary of my own inclination to TR a defense of myself, not that i shouldn't TR Nacho, if that is what you believe i meant.
what i was concerned about from that post was Nacho's essentially locktown read on Hectic. if he has a reason for it beyond what i believed the reason was at first (since he's said it isn't the roleplay/engagement combo) then i'd like to know what it is.

[Chara]

I have not played with Chara. As town, do they play like the world's most basic player, do they play similar to me, or neither? I don't know; I haven't played with them! I must guess. I feel like they might do similar to me, and be skeptical that goes against their expectations for someone's town play! Maybe I am wrong!

i would say we don't play similarly, you seem to have a strong scumhunting methodology i don't share. but i'm enjoying playing with you and would like to continue to do so.

[Chara]

Hectic: i switched to my best townread at the time as i was posting. we had more time afterwards as well so there was no need to switch back.
why do you regret telling alimdia to wait on your spare? we have replacements and a deadline extension and i'm glad we didn't end the day there.

[Chara]

i should go through Farkran's entrance properly, and also remind myself why Replica scumreads Nacho if it's besides the Chemist read (which i don't know if i agree with, Chemist's tone is easygoing but if it's NAI it's not helpful, but there's nothing i dislike)
also Sujimichi who i still like, though i don't know why the Nacho vote. possible i missed something on the skim.i keep telling myself i'll laptop out the analysis and then putting it off.

[Chara]

The only counterpoint I can think of is it would be easier to stay on the competing wagon than to try and wagon someone like nacho, as scum. But nacho has had an absence so he might appear to be an easier target than is actually true. Hmm

i was going to say i don't understand this because there's no need to swap to someone like Nacho over Farkran (assuming he's town), but given Farkran's start it's possible to think a lynch there is less viable now.

i still have this weird paranoia of Amrun that is based on my perception of her skill, which i don't really enjoy, but of the list i would probably pick Sujimichi.
i should put the work in, however.

[Chara]

Sujimichi, do you have a read on Amrun?

[Chara]

i had a look through his loser game and it seems like he spams a lot of useful looking questions without giving much analysis of his own while he's a loser.
not in this game though.
he's given detailed thoughts and analysis - like in his interactions with Nacho - and his questions have been more pointed.
he's a real pal.

this game has too much meta based on singular games. 1 to 1 comparisons aren't reliable.

[Chara]

HURT: pops

Farkran: i explained my Hectic spare when i gave the summary, i believe. early game he was towny and engaging.

the decision to delay his own spare is really the sticking point. there's really no reason for scum to not spare themselves there, and given where the gamestate was at at the time, scum Hectic being afraid of asking to be spared doesn't seem right either. i can't really see him as scum besides, and the regret at not hammering his own spare was something i didn't like upon seeing it, but i really doubt scum decides to lament that when we've gotten a much more fulfilling day out if it, in my opinion.

going to look at the count before i do anything as i don't want to end the day yet.

[Chara]

to elaborate, it feels honest in that it's an opinion scum would think twice about posting. it's true i had a fairly good townread on Hectic and wanted more than that to justify sparing him, but at this point i feel safe with the option, as much as i do with Replica, though i would like to verify that now that i have my laptop.

[Chara]

i answered your question, i said Sujimichi.

i don't know if i think that now, the latest response to Amrun is something i want to check. and i was concerned because it seemed strange that Sujimichi was on Nacho instead of Amrun, and i couldn't see what their read on her was, since it felt like a scumread but there was no indication of that i could find. the answer was what i was looking for if Sujimichi's town but i'm looking at their Nacho case now.

and about Replica, it's also in my ISO but i find their commitment to their scumhunting style difficult to fake (that it feels very genuine and not something they're putting on, even if they are wearing an alt right now) and the things that stick with them/stick out to them have a consistent internal logic.
502: i still don't quite understand Amrun and Replica's argument about it, or rather, i'm not sure how the post Replica is talking about there was read as a statement that i didnt expect Nacho to TR me, but both of them did read it that way so there must be something. given that, the way Replica responded to my Nacho comment (finding it strange i dismissed the read rather than want to engage on it further) is the sort of unobvious thing that's less useful to push as scum. scum like contradictions because they're final and provable (which is why i have a bias towards scumreading overly logical/"correct" players), but going for this angle is less defensible and harder to argue about.

[Chara]

I ask because I think it’s directly relevant to my reading of your tone, but I get it if you’d prefer not to answer

now i'm curious about how you read the town of men as compared to women.

or how you'd read my tone. :>

[Chara]

Lynching lurkers as a compromise is one of the main ways in which towns lose games

Scum push one or two wagons up, town gets exhausted as the factions battle it out and then those wagons are potential mislynches down the line and a lurker has been got

An ISO being empty doesn’t mean the ISO is bad — the pine/pysche ISO isn’t bad, it’s just that there’s nothing there. If there were posts and there was still nothing there it might be bad, but as it stands it’s just... meh

People are notoriously bad at reading chemist because they think him lurking is NAI and fail to engage with what he does on its own terms. If you engage with chemist

as chemist

he’s very readable, and has produced solidly AI content even if there’s been a lot of memeing and not being serious and just being fun alongside it

It’s a matter of looking through the static to find the meaningful image, and that is possible from what he’s done thus far. I would be very surprised if chemist flipped scum this game

i agree with this, the point about compromise lynches being the worst possible option, and i also enjoy the background on Chemist. i would rather he participate more, however, or at least have some more urgency in getting things down, but he doesn't feel overly concerned about how he's being viewed by the thread.

474: i wouldn't call it a 1v1v1. i liked how Suji responded to me and didn't find Amrun's case convincing, but her comment about wanting to leave her vote on Sujimichi for a bit resonated with me. i suppose it's an easy thing to say, but at the time it mirrored why i wanted to stick with the vote on Amrun myself and that's usually town indicative.
Asriel's ISO was mostly empty but a wagon is better than no wagon, even though i don't enjoy wagoning lurkers. i didn't like how Asriel would pop in and show he was aware of the gamestate while not contributing anything, and i also didn't like how he didn't respond to my "in-character" pokes either.

your entrance has been fine. i would appreciate you outlining what your goal was in your questionnaire once it's been answered. it took me until literally just now to realize the four players were your wagon and not slots you merely had an interest in.

it does seem like you keep asking me questions where the answers are readily available in my ISO.

but to talk about the townhunting, i am better at that and i like townhunting setups. it does cause some paranoia when things come right down to it (especially in games like coalition and one i can't remember the name of but had voting up town to 'heaven' and scum down to 'hell') but i've ultimately had more success townhunting in games than i ever have scumhunting. so i'm working on building a strong PoE.
you and Sherlock are players i find difficult to read the tone of. and i say tone to mean something besides surface level emotional markers, it's more referring to the underlying "feeling" of a player, and i run into snags with players who make less mistakes and are generally... i want to say something besides "competent" because that definitely isn't it. it's more i have a tendency to scumread players who are very objectively correct and who don't post without thinking.

[Chara]

Chara, it is weird though that your spare targets are two people who are ultimately scumleaning you, when you claim you have been liking nacho's townread.

I mean, it would be acceptable (although almost never optimal play) to form a weak townread of someone who townreads you in return, but it's very unusual to form two strong townreads of people who are scumleaning you. I kinda never heard of that.

Can i ask you to produce a readlist for me?

i don't know if i understand what either of you mean. :>
1) i don't scumread Nacho, and 2) i was referring to being wary of my own inclination to TR a defense of myself, not that i shouldn't TR Nacho, if that is what you believe i meant.
what i was concerned about from that post was Nacho's essentially locktown read on Hectic. if he has a reason for it beyond what i believed the reason was at first (since he's said it isn't the roleplay/engagement combo) then i'd like to know what it is.

read point 2. i don't find it good practice to TR someone just because they TR you or defend you. in fact, it's not often a good idea. i was only commenting on my own instinct to do so, in that it felt good at the time.

why is it unusual? my read on Hectic has nothing to do with the read on me, and i'm very confident about it. do you think Hectic is scum and makes the decision to continue the day there, and then openly regrets it?
you can be town and wrong. town often

are

wrong, and fundamentally you find them by figuring out who is informed and who is not.
the way Replica has been reading me doesn't feel like scum pressing for a mislynch, either, which i also already explained.

[Chara]

what do you TR me for besides responding to your question?

i'm still reading but:
really very town: Hectic, Replica
townish: Chemist, Sujimichi, Amrun
leftovers: alimdia, Psyche, Sherlock, Nacho
scum?: Farkran

i hestitate to dismiss Sujimichi and Amrun entirely as TvT, and i think i ultimately feel better about Suji for town over Amrun.

Amrun is a difficult case in that i agree with what she's said, and can identify with that. such as 254 as i mentioned. (about not wanting to let up on Sujimichi) but i don't know if making sense is enough.

Amrun, what about Replica did you like more? besides the contextual mistakes, which were rectified when pointed out, i feel like their posting feel has been fairly consistent since they replaced in.

forgive me if you answered this already, but i found it again and didn't find an answer. i was curious about what prompted you saying you liked their posting more, as opposed to not liking it earlier.

as for you, i liked your activity and burst of posting, but as i said your questions all have answers in the ISO you commented on having read.

[Chara]

Why not join me on Suji?

Your reasoning on me feels very much like reaching since I have explained all of my actions, and you were forced to walk the most damning thing back. In your own view - and without referring to someone else's - why do you scum read me?

This is extremely misrepresentative so I’m not going to answer it.

Your wagon is my wagon - I’ve already stated my reasoning in my own words, and was the first to do so. Implying heavily that I am sheeping and have unoriginal reasons is disingenuous at best. Anyone honestly wishing for this answer can ISO me.


This also serves as an answer to Farkran’s questions.

It is not close to extremely misrepresentative, so your dismissal causes me concern. Your initial rationale for your scum read on me was that I was attempting to blend in (see post 146), which I viewed as weak on its initial foundation, but we can assume you did not. You subsequently stated that additionally, you found my tone to be indicative of scum (see post 153); however, if you truly wished to assess this you would be able to see that this is my tone across all of my games. Next, despite initially saying you scum read me for attempting to blend in, you asserted you did not scum read me for that (see 165) after I questioned you, and instead re-asserted your scum read for my tone (see my previous comment regarding that). You then stated you thought my recent contributions were improved (see 254) and moved to another wagon. When Farkran entered and then stated a scum read on me, you began to walk back to my wagon (see posts 404 and 410) and then misrepresentated my actions, despite them being transparently stated (see post 489). When I called you on this, you walked it back but then stated you didn't like my unvote anyway (despite me stating why I made the action that I made) and deferred to Farkran's comments on my play.

Thus, I am asking for

your

current rationale for voting me without deferring to someone else's. This is not extremely misrepresentative. Please answer.

i read 165 as consistent with Amrun saying you wanted to blend in, by echoing thread sentiment at the time to Nacho, and her saying she did not just scumread you for your lower post count at the time (point A, in 165) but that it complements the idea you were blending in.
i am curious about what she found better about your recent contributions, however.

you said Farkran is someone you think will be easier to read later, and that you didn't like his initial question about asking for a summary (which i did like, i find the practice useful and wanted to see what he would do with it). i'm interested in what you think of his recent posting.

[Chara]

you agree it's the worst thing scum could do, but you're still dubious on the slot? i don't have any experience with Hectic, really, though it sounds like you do. do you think he would make that mistake at that time? even without it his ISO rings towny to me.

and if it's not clear, i've been catching up on reading the thread while i post, and in 564 i outright said i was reconsidering the Sujimichi pick, and what i was reconsidering. after looking at his ISO i was reminded of why i liked the slot.
i have been called inconsistent before so i don't exactly blame you for that, but it pinged that you kept asking questions that i can answer by simply repeating what i've already said.

i do apologize for being confusing. the list i gave you at the end is most accurate, and you're at the bottom because it felt like you didn't actually process my ISO/checked it before asking.
admittedly now i'm concerned i just am being unintentionally confusing, because that's a common criticism i get due to the piecemeal way i often post. reading your reply i can believe you're trying to make sense of it.

Spoiler: not game related, but if you're interested in knowing more about me

i have adhd and associated working memory issues, so trying to post in a more structured fashion has not, historically, worked out.

pedit: aha. get help? is it that bad?

[Chara]

@Amrun, thanks for restating the answer, i did just miss it.
Farkran, not sure, i TR both of them but feel better about Sujimichi if i have to pick.
night for now.

[Chara]

i don't consider tonereading to have anything to do with meta. it's not about comparing tones between games or comparing tones with experience. i know this isn't relevant to the game itself (in that it's theory, yes), but i'd like to point out that it isn't as simple as looking for differences in tone between games or having a "scummy" or "towny" tone, though i don't believe that's the point Amrun was trying to make, either.
it's about how the tone communicates the underlying personality of the player, and how that personality compares to their play.
i downplay tonereading regularly as a reflex to what seems to be the notion that it's an inferior scumhunting tool, but i don't really believe that it is when it comes down to it.

Sujimichi, thanks for the answer on 165, i still don't believe there's a contradiction there. as for Nacho, i still found his entrance significant, in that i see how Amrun came to the conclusion she did. i think i'm not able to process fully the rest of your back and forth but i don't find it a bad discussion (at least in comparison to genuine cluttering discussions i've been witness to).

[Chara]

Chara, I did answer this. If this answer is insufficient, please ask me a more specific question.

I don’t think Replica’s posting has been inconsistent, which is why my estimation of it sort of improved. I think it’s very black and white, which contrary to your opinion, I think is very easy to fake as scum.

As for the other post we argued over, I think you’re misreading our discussion. Replica and I have opposite readings of that post, not the same one. That’s why the argument doesn’t make sense, because his interpretation of the post doesn’t make sense.

It could be a genuinely wrong interpretation, but it is a legitimate scum strategy to try and build a house on the sand and hope it lasts long enough for a mislynch, which is why I am wary of Replica.

I am not really interested in fighting him, though. The jury is still out.

i suppose that's true. my experience definitely lies in the opposite view, in that an unstable house is eventually doomed to fail, and so it doesn't work out in the longterm. but it's not like there's only one way to play scum. i'm still happy with it after a reread, though we'll see what Replica thinks of my reply. i did get that you two were reading the post differently, what i meant by "having the same reading" was that you both read it as me being surprised Nacho defended me, when surprise wasn't really an emotion that was there.

i'm also curious if my last few posts with Farkran were that hard to understand, to you and to Sujimichi. or whoever else. i thought it was clear i was updating as i continued on, but i'd like opinions on Farkran's questioning as well.

[Chara]

only 36 hours....

Hectic spare is one i'm most confident with. i'm torn between that as the safest option and wanting to pursue something to lead to a flip.
i do TR Sujimichi. i think i believe them about what they said in the previous game, in that they would not take ongoing games into account, so i won't take that as a clear but rather as a testament to Sujimichi's own commitment to not referring to ongoing games, which i agree with and have in fact done in the past. to be clear, i'm referring to making comments such as "i haven't been scum in a while" to a scumpartner, whilst scum in an ongoing game. ongoing games don't exist, so i find it perfectly valid. lying by omission is necessary, in fact.

i'm not sure why Psyche finds this so hard to believe, actually.

i'm not sure why i feel so cautious about the lynch. in a regular game, you simply do the best you can with your day 1 lynch because you have to, but all of the discussion surrounding optimal action has me overthinking it.
day 1 scum lynches lose games after all, ahaha.

[Chara]

henlo

I'll try to get to reading stuff soon, any suggestions?

Farkran and Nacho's ISOs? and perhaps Replica.

[Chara]

i hate that i feel motivated at 5am. i shouldn't check the thread this late but "Chara's been posting gold" makes me want to do things... but it's really too late.

i still like all of my townreads from my list and so i'm willing to go anywhere besides them if we don't spare today. i'll try again to read tomorrow.

[Chara]

Amrun's gone up for me a bit as well. lost the post while writing but the argument with Replica really hit me, as both someone who responds quickly without reading well occasionally, or who doesn't have time to look over things 100%. i know it's not fully AI because it's about out of game factors and Amrun's style/capability to post, but i like how the discussion came about if that makes sense.

[Chara]

re: the discussion about forcing scum to do things, making up townreads as scum is just as telling as making up scumreads. the problem is that usually players focus on scum trying to go for mislynches, and neglect to crossexamine their reasoning for the townreads they give, or their actual belief in them (being informed, knowing, vs. belief but uninformed).

i still believe it's necessary to have both, and the threat of a lynch is a good motivator and useful for determining alignment, but going for spares isn't such a death sentence even without the flip feedback.

i'm willing to do either for today is my point.

mafiascum being slow for me is also probably a sign to not do this right now.
still need to do ISOs.

[Chara]

I take it as you are now reading Suji vs Amrun as TvT and Hectic as T. Where does this leave Replica?

Also why is chemist up there and Nacho down there? Can you point me to the reasons why those two are in two separate tiers from your POV?

Replica is up there with Hectic as a confident TR, though without the certainty of holding off on the spare + subsequent worry about that. i still feel this way after looking over Replica for scum, though that was a skim.

Chemist is in the townlean category because i have reasons for him to be town that i like. if you search Chemist in my ISO they should be there. when you take his personality into account (i have no meta on him) the easygoing way he conducts himself is in-character, and i can identify with the lack of urgency. he could still be scum who either doesn't experience/hides that self-consciousness/anxiety of being scum, but it's good enough that i'm happy to TR him. there are some posts of his i like i could go look for.

Nacho is where he is because i TRed him early but he hasn't upheld that due to activity. i've been saying i need to actually go over the case, which i'll do now.

no one on this game is overwalling or anything like that, the parsing issues are on my end. i'm actually really happy with the pace and level of posting here.

[Chara]

HURT: unvote
i may have been wrong about Chara...
but i am a little suspicious...
i'm still hiding from her after we started playing hide and seek and she still hasn't found me...
maybe scum-indicative...?

aha! but i did find you. i knew where you were hiding the whole time, you kept whispering about it.

(...don't tell anyone i forgot we were playing........)

[Chara]

Farkran: Replica has already expressed a strong desire to Spare day 1 due to considering it optimal. so given that... is it really strange to avoid voting to Fight?

[Chara]

I think Psyche is too sure about Sujimichi and it might make him scum. Whereas Sherlock I think is extremely town for how they went about it.

I thought a lot about this yesterday, I agree with you. The only issue for me was trying to figure out the scum incentive for him to push for 3/4 spares incl. Sujimichi/Sherlock. I think it makes sense if he thinks we won't actually spare the 3/4 people like he advocates, instead using it mostly to posture. That seems very plausible to me.

the Sujimichi thing prompted me to look through some scumgames to try and find myself claiming i hadn't been scum in a while while playing scum, but i couldn't. i do think i did it as some point.

i don't know if it's a genuine belief in someone never lying about that, or what scum Psyche would gain from that, besides knowing Sujimichi is town and so doubling down on the read naturally.

pedit: i'm interested in your Nacho and Sherlock reads especially. do you have a read on me, Psyche? i know you said i was null earlier.

[Chara]

i don't agree it's a clear towntell. i find locktown reads based on dubious reasons to be dangerous, and i think that goes more so in a game like this one.

but i am reminded that i liked Sherlock's pointing it out.

i had something typed out about this involving the spirit of the game and playing to win, but i think it's best to leave that be until postgame. the point is i believe Sujimichi and don't see why you don't, especially if you locktowned them.

pedit: because it's true if ongoings don't exist. newbie scum comment on their experience.
you say it suggests things about his other games, but what i'm saying is i find it the opposite.

i don't know how productive this is, though. i feel like you do really believe this and that it's considered suggesting status in ongoings, when i feel the opposite, which makes it a meta conversation.

it does make me feel more that your assurance of Sujimichi being locktown is not overblown, and simply NAI.

[Chara]

and this topic makes me strangely uncomfortable the more i try to talk around it. i understand why Sherlock was reluctant to post this.

[Chara]

looked at Nacho again. there's a lot i want to see him respond to, which is unfortunate if he simply isn't here. i remember thinking his reads didn't quite line up with the posting he'd done surrounding those players (Replica read, read on me), and his scumreads were more like leftovers (two lurkers and Sherlock, who i believe was still in full roleplay mode at the time).
but i don't know if a wagon there is productive, though i also don't want to reward lurking.

Farkran is.... ah. i liked the confusion thing but i don't know if that's enough for a TR. i don't agree with any of their reads, at least on Chemist and definitely on Replica.

[Chara]

i'm more confident in sparing Hectic than Sujimichi or Sherlock.

[Chara]

being confident in townreads =/= having the same confidence in scumreads or wanting to pursue them.
i don't like Farkran's angle here at all and i don't find it a contradiction in the first place. Replica said as much already about why they want to spare and you acknowledged that. i also can't conceive of what scum Replica would achieve by discrediting their own scumreads or themself, except as a way to lower responsibility for mislynches. but they aren't going for mislynches.

pedit: i find the denial of hammering the spare to be still significant, along with the followup. Sujimichi is not a bad choice either, but i'd rather be more sure than not with something like this, and it's similar with Sherlock. there's the possibility of scum making one big towny move, but i find Hectic being scum and making the decisions he has to be much less likely.

[Chara]

As a claimed VT I think there's value in leaving Hectic and sparing Sujimichi. If Sujimichi is also a VT, it forces scum to choose between shooting a likely townspare or shooting to hit the FN.

i think i see what you're saying, (i think) but i'm most concerned with today's spare being correct.
i'll compromise there but i would really rather Hectic.

and Nacho: i'm not sure if we have the time for that.

[Chara]

i don't disagree with your analysis of the two games.
the problem is, yes they were simultaneous, but one was an 8-day long Micro, while this one is a mini with specific mechanics. the thread environment is a significant factor on the type of posting in the game, as much as alignments. that's one of the reasons i don't put much stock into single-game meta.
Sujimichi's approach does seem to be more nuanced/deep here. it could be because they're town, and i do find it more likely they are.

Hectic is just a slot i can't really conceive of as scum unless they made a very big mistake early on. i suppose it's possible they got overconfident and thought delaying would add to their towniness while still being ensured of being spared, but do they then let that bleed into their posting?

they're probably both town and i'm thinking too much about it, but this is different from a lynch, where being wrong is not as damaging.

but i will reread to see how i feel about both of them.

[Chara]

Again, no. You cannot simultaneously have a profile of high self-esteem, high level of certainty townreads while doubting your scumreads so much that you call wagoning on them "dangerous" and actively impair other players from doing by denying your vote. This is not about optimal strategy, this is about the immense gap in the amount of faith you place in your townreads as opposed to the amount you place in your scumreads. You cannot be simultaneously certain that we are going to spare 3 non-scum players and extremely unsure of your scumreads. This does not make any sense. If you believe your scumreads are weak and likely wrong, you should also assume that at least SOME of your townreads could be wrong.

what? of course you can. it's the entire conceit behind townhunting as a process.

and it's also just as possible to be more certain in one read than another than want to pursue that. i can be 100% certain in a townread and unsure of the rest of the playerlist.
that's just how reads work. are you not allowed to be confident in one read if you haven't completely solved the game yet?

[Chara]

More gratuitous shade - there is nothing in my theory that i haven't been explaining solidly and properly, even if you believe i am wrong. Resorting to omgus-fossing when you are out of arguments is not the correct move.

HURT: Farkran

the solidity of your theory or the consistency of your explanation has little to do with your towniness. it does have everything to do with scum who try to be correct in order to avoid being caught in a contradiction.

it also doesn't make any sense if you scumread Replica to word it this way. it's like you're saying if town Replica should find your argument sound, when the point of what you're saying is that they're scum.
that's not quite exactly what i mean but i hope it comes across.

[Chara]

I don't know if the bolded is directed to me, but in case it is, it's a misrep. I explicitly said i would compromise on pretty much anything if i am the last active player 10 minutes from deadline.

i was talking about Hectic. but your jumping to your own defense on that is telling.

[Chara]

that too. if someone is locktown/an IC, the correct play is to spare them. otherwise they just get nightkilled.

[Chara]

My point has nothing to do with what townhunt is about. My point is that one cannot simultaneously display godlike levels of certainty on his townreads and shitlevel of certainty on his scumreads. The gap is too high. This is what makes replica scummy, not the decision to spare over fight, or the decision to spare player X instead of player Y.

where did Replica say they had godlike certainty in their townreads?
my point is that you

can

be certain of townreads and not scumreads. i literally play like this often.

[Chara]

Yeah, sure. I'm being extra-careful to bring good arguments to the table, when everything i have been saying has mostly been shot down by the spare lovers for no reason at all, despite them being super certain of being correct on their townreads, but none wants to put any actual weight on their scumreads. This is true for Replica as it is for you and Psyche. And possibly hectic too. I probably need to sleep over it, but i'm honestly inclined to think we can find the full scumteam here, and two players being simply very wrong and pocketed so deep they cannot see the light of the sun.

it's been pointed out that Replica does not have any "godlike certainty" in their scumreads, but i also don't understand what is so impossible about townhunting in this way.

i also would disagree with no reasons being given. if you are town and actually convinced of this, or that everyone who wants to spare is playing badly, i would suggest reconsidering the thought that everyone who disagrees with you must be wrong or scum. i am telling you that it is very possible to be confident in townreads and not in scumreads.
but i am hoping you're just scum.

and again, Replica never said they were a god of townhunting. they said they had an ego. that in itself puts them ahead of players who are not aware of that bias.

[Chara]

Replica: i did see that.

pedit: it's possible. i would not say i want to base those four on only this day 1, but i am confident in the townreads i have currently.

[Chara]

Unless we can spare EXACTLY 4 TOWN PLAYERS, every other scenario implies the removal of two players chosen by the mafia among the unspared pool, then the night kills just restart. The whole sparing route, unless we find exactly 4 town players, is bad.

did you miss the town-directed nightkill we get at two spares, and that the mafia are forced to remove one of their own if they aren't among a 3-spare scenario?

[Chara]

we shouldn't take a town spare because they'll just die later?

and Sujimichi, i don't know if claiming when you did is optimal. but i'm not upset about it or anything like that.

pedit: but you didn't even want to put someone who you thought was conftown in the sparing pool.

[Chara]

why are you upset when you didn't want to spare today in the first place? you implied we may as well not spare at all.

[Chara]

HEAL: Sujimichi

At this point, we should just spare Sujimichi.


I’m not liking Farkran’s most recent contributions. I do think his theory is right about fighting being superior due to the risk of an incorrect spare. But this close to deadline, at this low level of consensus, sparing Sujimichi is the best move I think.

I also didn’t like Chara saying he’d spare Hectic over Sujimichi/Sherlock. Just, what?

this post is delightfully asynchronic.

am i really the only one who thinks Hectic as scum who denied his spare earlier is obscenely unlikely?

also, nothing to do with the game, but i'd like to ask references to me be it/its, or they/them if you're uncomfortable with that. (this isn't just to Amrun, don't worry)

[Chara]

i'm lost on the gambling odds.
i think Farkran is scum for reasons besides disagreeing about optimal strategy, and rather not wanting to spare someone he considers an IC (but then being upset that the FN claimed), along with the reliance on being logically right and the weirdness to the Replica read in general.

pedit: no problem at all, Amrun. as long as you try i appreciate it.

[Chara]

ah, i misunderstood that.
still, i don't see why you would want the FN to spare later but not to spare Suji now (before you knew they were the same).

[Chara]

i would prefer to wait on ending the day/

[Chara]

sparing only 1 may as well be sparing 0.
i don't know if only spares is sustainable, as much as i feel more confident in townreads. i wonder if keeping locktown reads close to the chest is a good idea or not.

disagree that the rewards besides 1 are bad. i believe this game was built on a design principle involving player choice (based on the design thread), so i think the best option depends on the list. and yes, i know what the numbers say.

Amrun: i understand the significance of the lynch information, even if i don't think i usually capitalize on it the right way.
i like keeping fighting as an option. i think it will be healthier for the gamestate as a whole.

[Chara]

HEAL: Hectic

HURT: Farkran

Hectic, do you have any scumreads?

i also don't think we have enough yet. at least not a tight enough PoE that i'm willing to bet the game on it. more from alimdia/Nacho/Chemist slots would be good.

but i'm pretty confident about being able to reliably find town in the right environment. i just think it will be ruined or at least skewed if we collectively decide to only spare. i was thinking about playing this like coalition, but that was a game that i ended up being confident in exactly 0 townreads in due to the way it was set up.

[Chara]

also going to reread end of day 1 because i read it but didn't retain most of it.
and an aside: collectively i would like to thank everyone for keeping the postcount below 40 by day 2.

[Chara]

Perhaps it would be more understandable as a detailed timeline:

1) Chara townreads Hectic because of Hectic content
2) Hectic reaches Spare-1, Chara unvotes and states Hectic is not towny enough
3) Hectic scumreads Chara because of point 2
4) Chara puts back Hectic in its top townreads
5) Hectic unvotes Chara but is still suspicious of it
6) I scumread Replica
7) Chara scumreads me because i scumread Replica
8) Replica townreads Chara because it scumreads me
-d2 happens-
8) Hectic now townreads Chara for no reason at all
9) Hectic now scumreads me because i scumread him
10) Suddenly, Hectic, Chara and Replica formed a townbloc of their own

literally just because of how the players involved are reading themselves

whereas i am pushed as a scumread because i scumread them.

Just no.

i don't know where to start with this. i voted Replica when i did because they were my best townread at the time, and we ended up having more time in the day so i left the vote there.

i asked Nacho about the Hectic locktown read because i wanted to know why it was lock, as opposed to a good townread (i was always townreading Hectic).

i didn't scumread you for your Replica scumread, that's a ridiculous oversimplification. i scumread you for your approach and the way you, ironically considering this push, focus on contradictions over any sign of looking for a deeper understanding.

point 8 (the first one) is the most egregious. Replica stated quite plainly that the TR was from my response to Amrun and Replica's argument. you were not involved at all.

Hectic

also

plainly said he townread me for my posting around the end of day.

i'm usually the one calling out misuses of the term misrep, which is thrown around far too often when the cause is usually a misunderstanding, but there is no way to quantify this other as a blatant misrepresentation of the entire progression and the situation.

[Chara]

Perhaps it would be more understandable as a detailed timeline:

1) Chara townreads Hectic because of Hectic content
2) Hectic reaches Spare-1, Chara unvotes and states Hectic is not towny enough
3) Hectic scumreads Chara because of point 2
4) Chara puts back Hectic in its top townreads
5) Hectic unvotes Chara but is still suspicious of it
6) I scumread Replica
7) Chara scumreads me because i scumread Replica
8) Replica townreads Chara because it scumreads me
-d2 happens-
8) Hectic now townreads Chara for no reason at all
9) Hectic now scumreads me because i scumread him
10) Suddenly, Hectic, Chara and Replica formed a townbloc of their own

literally just because of how the players involved are reading themselves

whereas i am pushed as a scumread because i scumread them.

Just no.

i don't know where to start with this. i voted Replica when i did because they were my best townread at the time, and we ended up having more time in the day so i left the vote there.

i asked Nacho about the Hectic locktown read because i wanted to know why it was lock, as opposed to a good townread (i was always townreading Hectic).

i didn't scumread you for your Replica scumread, that's a ridiculous oversimplification. i scumread you for your approach and the way you, ironically considering this push, focus on contradictions over any sign of looking for a deeper understanding.

point 8 (the first one) is the most egregious. Replica stated quite plainly that the TR was from my response to Amrun and Replica's argument. you were not involved at all.

Hectic

also

plainly said he townread me for my posting around the end of day.

i'm usually the one calling out misuses of the term misrep, which is thrown around far too often when the cause is usually a misunderstanding, but there is no way to quantify this other as a blatant misrepresentation of the entire progression and the situation.

[Chara]

sorry for the double post above.

Hectic, do you have any scumreads?

good to see you again pal.
Farkran, Amrun, Alimdia have most potential to be losers.
none of these are confident but Farkran sits comfortably at the top.
but if he's a loser his strategy today is particularly bold to come out and attack most of the townreads of the town.
it's either a desperate strategy by a loser to derail the SPARE train because it's only got town or genuine thoughts of someone who really does just hate SPARING and doesn't get the value.
i think he's a loser at the moment, combined with him calling Sujimichi an IC and then not answering my question until I repeated it 4 times about why he would FIGHT someone's he not confident on over SPARING someone he considers an IC.
also Chemist actually particularly in how i feel his townread on me this game has been more of a "let's townread him because everyone else is" since i haven't see any reasons for it. would love to hear why, Chemist.

it's true it's a weird tactic to take as scum, but i can't imagine town thinking this way. for me it has less to do with the spare vs. fight discussion and more that his points neglect looking for reasons for the progression, and miss (or outright omit) obvious things. i thought it might be a playstyle issue yesterday, and i did feel like i had genuinely confused Farkran, but i'm not seeing any sign of that here.

i TR Amrun, it's not lock but i've come around on her, particularly in her interactions with Sujimichi. why do you scumread her?

[Chara]

Today, Hectic is townreading Chara enough to place it in his spare pool, and is scumreading me because i am scumreading him. This is not progression, it's literally a very convoluted omgus/chainsaw defense. The only reasons both of you have to townread each other -and scumread me- are because we changed our opinion on you. There is absolutely no other reasons to change your reads other than WE changed our reads. Unfortunately this also applies to Replica, who was scumreading Chara and then reconsiders it exactly when Chara starts scumreading me because i was scumreading Replica, but technically Replica is the most consistent here, so if i had to choose 2 scum and 1 town out of the trio, the town would be Replica. Though, Replica is still a scumread of mine and i could be wrong on either Hectic or Chara - however, it's a given that your interactions do not make sense as a genuine townbloc.

how could you possibly know what reasons there are? or to claim what they are. i've spoken about my Hectic townread plenty and you've never factored in. the biggest reason for it happened before you even replaced in. it's possible my posting towards you at the end of the day yesterday were what Hectic was referring to in his townread (i feel like they were, you've managed to make me more excitable in general), but he never gave that as the reason.

also: why do you consider consistency a town trait? scum are more consistent overall due to attempts to post "well" and without making suspicious contradictory moves. for someone arguing that the personal element and not the math is what makes mafia mafia (i agree with this), why don't you believe that a townie's reads are mutable?

it feels like you worked backwards here from seeing us happening to townread each other and went looking for why that couldn't be, but then skipped over all of the actual reasons for the TRs and made some up. it's incredibly clumsy if you are scum here, but if you're town then i don't know how you came to these conclusions either, or why you've ignored reasoning i know you've read, considering you've quoted it.

[Chara]

that might be a good idea. :> i would like opinions here in general.

why is Hectic your best TR? i agree that he's the easiest but i'd like to know why you're confident.

[Chara]

don't say weird things. that'd be like saying humans have skeletons inside them.

[Chara]

i TR Amrun, it's not lock but i've come around on her, particularly in her interactions with Sujimichi. why do you scumread her?

hmm.
i didn't like her giving in to SPARING Sujimichi after she was so vehemently against the concept of SPARING.
but y'know, looking back, that actually came after Sujimichi claimed FN and her defence of Nacho did look very towny.
nevermind pal.
do you agree with my take on Chemist?
i've been reading Sherlock's 452 but i don't get why those questions make him town when he rarely ever follows up on them and i can't see reads that have been formed off of them.
hell if i know.
maybe he's just a close to the chest type of player.

what Sherlock said about Chemist's style lines up, and from what i know of Chemist it makes sense as well.

it's enough i don't really want to lynch Chemist, but i wouldn't spare him either. if he was more into the game i think i could be more confident, at least in terms of securing a townread. he could be trying to skirt along and avoid a lynch, but that would indicate to me (from scum Chemist) that he thinks his partner is in a good position now.
i think that scum would be putting more into this, especially given how the game looks right now. but i know that's not the most reliable measure. i do think a large part of it is playstyle, he's reticent as town by Sherlock's knowledge.
i'm interested in what he thinks of Farkran's case.

pedit: hello Chemist! why do you TR Hectic now?

[Chara]

i acknowledged that (Hectic's tr on me coinciding with my posts to you) already. what about my townread on Hectic?

as for my read on you: given i have repeated it multiple times i'm not very willing to extend it into a pbp breakdown for you to pick at.

and you saying "townreading him again" as though i ever stopped townreading him. it seems like whenever i type this no one listens, since i remember someone else saying the same thing about my Hectic TR. i never stopped townreading Hectic. that's probably the fourth time i've reiterated that? i was questioning Nacho on

his

read in order to further my understand of

Nacho

, and on the possibility that Nacho's reasoning might be concrete enough to strengthen my Hectic TR. what he had said previously did not seem to warrant the locktown read.

[Chara]

Bolded part 1: you mean your biggest reason to townread hectic happened when you switched your vote from him to Replica?

Bolded part 2: consistency is a town trait. Of course scum also tries very hard to be consistent, but they are often forced into inconsistency because of their "failure" when reading other players. If you base your reads on a wrong premise and then you are proven wrong by claims or flip, you need to re-evaluate, keeping in mind to avoid PoEing yourself or your partners while also forming new scumreads that you know to be fake. Of course scum tries, but keeping consistency up is hard. As town, it's way easier, because you actually have a chance to be correct when scumreading someone.

Bolded part 3 and 4: sure, please tell me the real reasons why you are townreading Hectic and Replica; why Hectic is townreading you and Replica; why Replica is townreading you and Hectic. If there are anyone else other than omgus and chainsaw defenses, i'm all ears.

part 1: half of it did. the other half of it happened after Hectic expressed regret about the decision. at the time i didn't think much of the delay from Hectic's end, in hindsight after continuing the think about it i realized it was a very bad move if scum. that's the thing about people, they can miss something or not fully realize it the first time.

part 2: i disagree but i at least see your point. in my experience, scum on the whole tend to be more worried about it than town (in the same way that town usually post with more abandon and less caution than scum, since scum have something to hide). there are also reasons to reconsider besides claims and flips. rereading the game happens, hell, coming back to the thread later after a nice cup of tea can be the reason for a read change.

part 3: i refuse to repeat myself for you again. i'm all for dispelling confusion and for being clear but i've repeated myself enough and you pretending that i haven't tells me you're acting in bad faith or not looking hard enough. if you are genuinely, completely confused and tell me so, i will find it for you, if you actually attempt at reading anything i've said this game. and you quite literally quoted Hectic's reason for the Replica TR in your wallpost.

[Chara]

there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.

you there.
they've been consistently open-minded and transparent.
only weird thing is i didn't agree with either of the assessments in 275.
the first looks like a fluff post not relevant to alignment.
the second is something others also expressed in-thread.
many didn't realise that SPARING means no flips = no information.
but then their thoughts on Asriel or Sherlock in 296 are very reasonable.
and this is similar across their ISO like in their interactions with Nacho.
willing to SPARE this pal too.

this post was in response to voicing my TR and Hectic gave his own reasons for agreeing with the read and why he would spare. you quoted it.

[Chara]

Then why did you vote Replica in his stead? From your point of view, you were like 10 hours from deadline, before replacement extensions. Replica had no votes. What's the meaning of you vanity wagoning Replica at that specific moment in time?

why not? i wasn't planning on suddenly going offline afterwards. if after getting caught up on the thread and checking deadline we had no time, i would have gone back.

and then the vote stayed since we

did

end up having time. after that i avoided revoting Hectic because i didn't want to end the day yet, and he would have been at L-1 had i done so.

[Chara]

Hectic isn't scum. why does scum Hectic decide not to be spared on day 1? there was consensus to spare him, and quite literally the only thing stopping it was Hectic himself.
and if it was a lack of foresight (but still, there's very little reason to go for some meagre towncred from extending the day in exchange for possibly not being spared), i don't think scum who feels frustrated about the mistake then goes on to tell the thread about it, especially when a scum Hectic has otherwise remained very townread.

i also don't find it weird to say you don't like something from a slot you otherwise townread. i've in the past hated the play of a slot and not agreed with any of their reads, but i still came to a strong townread for other reasons. town are wrong, they

have

to be. they are uninformed. going for wrongness (or contradictions) is surface-level scumhunting and doesn't get you very far.

can you tell me why you scumread him, exactly? keeping in mind i'm aware of your "partners with Chara or Replica" reading. are partner-tells (when you aren't sure of the partner) enough to say he's scum? what about his actual play?
if you say it's the pushing for a spare, then that's the entire list in my memory besides Amrun, and they can't all be scum.

[Chara]

so this lecture is mind-numbing and i should have stayed in bed. how are things going.

[Chara]

Okay. I’m townreading Farkran from the last three pages. Fark, what should I be voting for?

Wouldn’t trust psyche or Amrun to watch the tip jar at a Starbucks. If Fark disappoints I’m probably defaulting to chem as a recent poster who doesn’t give me ick feelings.

are your reads based on vibes or something else?

[Chara]

i also don't know why Hectic is a bad spare. if you're not sure he's town then grill the hell out of him until you're sure.
Amrun you can try to convince me on Bingle if you'd like. remind me of your read on Farkran?

also i know i had something to respond to, i'll get to it.

[Chara]

this is important so i'll repeat it. pursuing both spares and fights seriously is more valuable than only pursuing spares, even if you ultimately want a spare.

Psyche has some short walls, that's exciting.
regarding being cagey about towncasing: i still don't know if it will do more harm than good.

i do scumread Farkran but i don't love Psyche's angle of "anyone not hard townreading Sujimichi from his play should have been" because it's both hindsighty and silly to expect everyone will read him the same way.

[Chara]

i'm undecided on Psyche. speaking of, it's hindsighty because you referenced Sujimichi's actions pre-claim and pre-Sherlock's tell, and so now that we know Sujimichi is town you can go back and say "look, i was right in this townread, you all should have seen it then as well", when i don't agree that Suji was obvtown enough to say anyone scumreading them deserves a scumlean. to go back to an earlier point, scum correctly call town town all the time.
i'm guessing your Amrun (and someone else i've forgotten) scumreads come from Sujimichi in some way?

i'd also like a read on me.

my list has changed, sure. i don't think it's fair to say i'm tunneling you either, Farkran. tunnel-vision implies i'm both looking nowhere else and considering nothing else.

[Chara]

and on partners: i don't do preflip partner analysis. waste of time and not in my skillset.

[Chara]

all your reads seem super wrong

while there are just some weird contradictions in your reasoning (for example you quote a post where i acknowledge where scum will kill townclears, but elsewhere you say i don't consider that consensus townreads are gonna die kinda weird), in general i think the systemic problem with the way you develop reads is that you associate towniness far too readily w/ tight, cautious, analytical, thorough play - or more specifically w/ play and positioning like yours

pedit: can you explain it again in a different way?
think that's the lesson you'll hopefully pick up once the game's all said and done

i have to agree here, if Farkran is town this is the problem i'm having. i'm not convinced of that however.

i had a problem with Psyche's focus on Sujimichi (and his being right on Suji and Sherlock) but i don't hate the rest of the content. i don't think we're the same type of player (and for some reason i think i've had a negative opinion of Psyche's attitude this game) but i do think we form townreads in a similar way.

[Chara]

Farkran: to answer you from earlier about Hectic, the town motivation is to extend the day and hopefully get more content out of the replacements, which did happen.
you're the one who said that scum being spared is the worst, worst outcome, so it follows that it's the best outcome for scum. deciding to delay his sparing for shaky towncred, or to hunt for the FN, is risky and gives the opportunity for the TR on him to wane.

[Chara]

Well, looks like it's about to toss my computer out the window, so much for keeping my content accessible when what the people really want is incomprehensible garbage and a lot of it.

This isn't a statement on this game, just a statement on the state of modern consumerism.

for what it's worth, i really appreciate your attention to keeping the thread readable and avoiding overwhelming it.

i'm not entirely sure what this was in direct response to though.

[Chara]

As opposed to... what? Distracted, inconsistent, inconclusive play? Or what else do you read as towny in a player, when trying to townhunt?

Tell me why and where i am wrong.

the problem is all of these things you've listed are more often personality traits than alignment indicators.

townhunting involves pushing players for interactions that allow you to conclusively say "no way scum behaves in this way". i'm not sure why i developed this way as a player, but it was probably in reaction to scumreads and wagons born of players making mistakes/being wrong about something, rather than being scum.
you can catch bad scum by looking for inconsistency or contradiction. you can't really catch good scum.

i'm no paragon, though, so feel free not to take the advice.

[Chara]

Psyche: i assume the apology isn't to me, but i think you're fine and should sleep.

and 1079 is really town.

[Chara]

all your reads seem super wrong

while there are just some weird contradictions in your reasoning (for example you quote a post where i acknowledge where scum will kill townclears, but elsewhere you say i don't consider that consensus townreads are gonna die kinda weird), in general i think the systemic problem with the way you develop reads is that you associate towniness far too readily w/ tight, cautious, analytical, thorough play - or more specifically w/ play and positioning like yours

think that's the lesson you'll hopefully pick up once the game's all said and done

i have to agree here, if Farkran is town this is the problem i'm having. i'm not convinced of that however.

i had a problem with Psyche's focus on Sujimichi (and his being right on Suji and Sherlock) but i don't hate the rest of the content. i don't think we're the same type of player (and for some reason i think i've had a negative opinion of Psyche's attitude this game) but i do think we form townreads in a similar way.

messed up the quote in the quoted post.

my pedit asking Psyche to explain again in a different way should have been at the bottom of my post.
but i'm less concerned with that at this point.

[Chara]

why would i, from my perspective, think Hectic's vote on me was distancing? that doesn't make any sense. it looked like he reacted to my unvote and then later reconsidered when i posted more about it and other things in general. it sounds like you gave the turn of events right there. he scumread my vote switch, and then reconsidered after further events. that's not weird, that's reacting to a thing that happened. what the hell else am i going to think?

and

again

, stop saying that i "townread him again". there is

nowhere

in my ISO that says i stopped townreading him, and i've already explained it was a case of finding Replica very towny (townier than Hectic at that point).

in 1071, the first sentence is to you. the rest is to Psyche. except for the last sentence which was to you again. sorry for being unclear.

[Chara]

and on partners: i don't do preflip partner analysis. waste of time and not in my skillset.

So... you're praising the value of scumhunting, yet you don't do "preflip" partner analysis. When are we supposed to flip someone, in your opinion?

um... when we scumread them? and then if they flip scum i'll go partner hunting. not before.

[Chara]

By the way i'd like to hear your new list, because last time i checked i was your only scumread and i still have a fight vote from you - i have yet to understand the real reasons behind it, besides you siding with Replica in the 1v1 he had with me, which i'll say once again it makes no sense since i was arguing with him for the same reasons you pointed out way earlier in d1. I think i have hit a nerve somewhere, trying to sort where - but it's clear that the group i've been hitting with my scumreads are now scumreading me in return for very little reasons.

the crux of my read on you is deciding whether this is a playstyle issue or a scum issue. Psyche said it nicely in the post i quoted earlier. it has to do with your reliance on consistency, contradiction, being "right", things like that. it has to do with how you don't seem willing to consider anything to be innocuous, like changing a read based on a feeling or thread information, but rather some evidence of scum who is being inconsistent. in my experience players who cling to that are more often scum than not.

and i am definitely feeling annoyed but that's more on me than with you.
it feels like you don't read the posts you quote very deeply, or don't try to understand them any more deeply than plainly stated things, and you keep repeating things that are incorrect (that status of my Hectic read throughout the game, for example). even reading that now i'm wondering if you wouldn't mind linking me to a recent town and a recent scumgame, because i think it'd help.

and now i'm getting too conscious of my wording and trying to be unambiguous. it gets frustrating when i repeatedly say i don't scumread you for your 1v1 with Replica, but rather the way you did it/the things you've focused on this game, and then you repeat again that the reason i actually scumread you has to do with

Replica's math or choosing to spare or fight.

that underlined part above is my interpretation of what your 1v1 with Replica was about. please read this post with that in mind. i'm trying not to be confusing.

[Chara]

Farkran: to answer you from earlier about Hectic, the town motivation is to extend the day and hopefully get more content out of the replacements, which did happen.
you're the one who said that scum being spared is the worst, worst outcome, so it follows that it's the best outcome for scum. deciding to delay his sparing for shaky towncred, or to hunt for the FN, is risky and gives the opportunity for the TR on him to wane.

Oh, i'm sure the townread consensus on him waned immensely, given that all people who were townreading him yesterday are still townreading him today - that is, assuming the almighty math gods will allow Replica to pursue that, but he did claim Hectic is still his highest townread if i recall correct. You are healing him, psyche is inclined to heal him. No one is scumreading him except for myself. And i have yet to understand why. I do not see any town motivation in extending the day, if the chosen route was to be 4-spared as he claimed it would be today.

1) extending the day gives us more information and input from replacements, instead of just a consensus spare and little input from a lot of dead slots. this is a good thing. do you agree or disagree?

2) scum being spared is very bad for town. do you agree or disagree with that? given that, what is most important for scum to do?

3) Hectic's position today (three townreads on him, 4 votes to spare him counting Hectic himself) is not proof against it being risky in the first place. to use an analogy, it's dangerous to jump off a cliff into shallow, rocky water. many people do this anyway. they survived, so that must mean it isn't a risky thing to do.
except it of course still is, but looking for proof in the successes is not how you find the risk. you do that by looking at the water and the height of the cliff.

i really doubt i'm going to convince you on this at this point, but there you go.

[Chara]

As opposed to... what? Distracted, inconsistent, inconclusive play? Or what else do you read as towny in a player, when trying to townhunt?

Tell me why and where i am wrong.

the problem is all of these things you've listed are more often personality traits than alignment indicators.

townhunting involves pushing players for interactions that allow you to conclusively say "no way scum behaves in this way". i'm not sure why i developed this way as a player, but it was probably in reaction to scumreads and wagons born of players making mistakes/being wrong about something, rather than being scum.

you can catch bad scum by looking for inconsistency or contradiction. you can't really catch good scum

.

Oh, thanks. I assume you just called me town, because the alternative would be being the worst scum player in this playerlist since i am your only scumread and your only fight vote ever since this game has started. Or is this still about asriel? You were on his wagon, after all. Sarcasm aside, i am still looking for your reason to scumread Farkran - not asriel. I asked you several times, but every time i do, the answer seems revolving around my 1v1 with Replica and i cannot make any sense out of that.

pedit: i just want to point out that i'm still catching up and answering old posts, not reading those people are making in-between mine. I'll get to those once i am finished.

i'll just reply to the first part then since the other should be addressed when you read it.

as for the first part, what? you really misread what i'm saying here. i said you can't catch bad scum by only looking for contradictions, my point being that good scum are better at avoiding contradictions in their posting. i have no idea what this has to do with my vote on you, considering i was talking about hypothetical hunting strategies, and the bolded is not in any way how i hunt in the first place.

[Chara]

why would i, from my perspective, think Hectic's vote on me was distancing? that doesn't make any sense. it looked like he reacted to my unvote and then later reconsidered when i posted more about it and other things in general. it sounds like you gave the turn of events right there. he scumread my vote switch, and then reconsidered after further events. that's not weird, that's reacting to a thing that happened. what the hell else am i going to think?

How is it possible that Hectic's omgus vote on you literally didn't ring any alarm bell to you? In what universe does town!Hectic scumread you for removing your vote on him when even you said that his purpose was to extend the day? What kind of reasoning is this?

because town get paranoid...? they react in response to actions?

do you scumread every single player that votes you? i understand what gave him the thought to vote me. it isn't like he started tunneling me after that. i don't know how to say it any more plainly that i don't expect every town player to make perfect logical leaps like "Chara must have unvoted me to extend the day" when i might not have made that clear . i don't remember if i did.
there's something fundamental here about how mafia isn't so black and white but i don't know how to even begin discussing it more than i already have.

[Chara]

I mean what's this progression? Can anyone explain to me how Hectic goes from scumleaning Chara due to its ISO, fight it as his only fight-worthy vote, then enter d2 with a spare-worthy townread of Chara? What the hell is that?

i want to be sarcastic about this but it probably won't be helpful.

there are posts in between the ones you quoted. quite a lot.
it's... he progressed. it's called a read progression. i don't know how to explain this anymore or what you aren't understanding. i can't keep going over this.

the only point i could understand from this is that you don't think Hectic explained it thoroughly enough, or was too vague, or something. i didn't crossexamine his read because 1) i don't see why scum decides to TR me there besides a pocket, and scum Hectic doesn't need to pocket me when i'm already townreading him, and 2) i'm already convinced he's town for reasons i've explained. it just... makes sense to me that he read my end of day posts, which were more emotional and involved than i think most of my posts day 1, and found them towny.

i think i'm not going to discuss this anymore past this post.

pedit: well i appreciate that at least, Amrun. can you tell me about your Bingle scumread? or... we can talk about whatever. i'd like to talk about players that aren't Hectic.

[Chara]

HURT: pops

[Chara]

i do still want to see a previous town and scum game if you wouldn't mind.

[Chara]

i wanted to ask if Bingle was Jingle since he replaced in, but i only noticed upon rereading 1143 that it appeared to be true.

if so, hello Jingle.

regarding 1130 i'm curious about this too. and agree that in spite of the low postcount a lot of the game is very dense. not a bad thing but maybe a difficult thing for me right this second.
i don't know if i feel enough fervor for alimdia scum to want to lynch over a spare. i'll think on it. Farkran i need a break from and will read again later. (i don't mean this as an insult Farkran.)

[Chara]

Nacho, i'm assuming you are rl busy, but i would really like to see your input on alimdia/Bingle, Farkran, Hectic, maybe Psyche if you can. but anything would be nice.

[Chara]

You disagree that Farkran being the only one to actively push something when I replaced in is town indicative?

Are we literally supposed to pretend that scum don’t push things? Idgi

so why do you TR Farkran exactly? and what did you like about his case?

[Chara]

i don't know if it's bad to TR Psyche's posting about how he wasn't intending to mock or be a negative sort of person from the other day. it feels sort of bad to do so and it's probably NAI, but it's also kind of messy and doesn't look thought out.

[Chara]

actually no Psyche's town for other reasons like 1079 and the following refusal to give a read, and generally being himself, there's enough to look at without resorting to angles i don't enjoy and should be NAI in the first place in a game where we're all nice people.
he has that feeling of being justified by his own alignment that's probably fakeable but if i worry about that every time i'm not going to get anywhere. i want to call the feeling defiance but i'm not sure about that.

not sure why 1158 is town-indicative or how one can tell here's exactly one scum as opposed to two or none.

[Chara]

i need to do work today.

Farkran, i don't understand where your Bingle townread is coming from. i didn't realize you did TR him until you said you were sticking your arm out to defend him.

[Chara]

there's a lot i want to do here but it requires putting a lot of energy into this, otherwise i feel like i'm not getting the whole picture.

i can't wrap my head around someone reading Hectic's ISO and thinking "yes, this is definitely the best lynch", but Farkran's logic has sort of leaked into how i'm thinking about it enough that i'm really concerned with nailing them down. i don't think "really believes what he's saying" is near a good enough reason for a strong TR, but to do something more substantial than that requires picking through an ISO i for some reason have a lot of trouble with.

Amrun is probably the player this game i understand the most (and am most paranoid of, but that's less important) in how she approaches the game, i see where everything she's done has come from in spite of her not being the most wordy of players, and that's a good sign to me. or i just like shorter posts that aren't also spammy.

Psyche: is Bingle a strong TR to you? also, i understand why you're being cagey, but with a week left to deadline i would like to have some sort of wagoning happening. this is sort of to everyone and also to me. we aren't running out of time or anything but it feels like wheels are spinning and not going very far.

Bingle: your reads seem based on the timing you replaced in to the exclusion of the rest of the game. or not seems, this is what you've said and i believe it. i know you don't want to read the entire thing, though i think some context would help things, but couching all of your reads with the followup that none of them are especially strong is exactly the sort of "pushing things with minor blowback" you're accusing Amrun of.

why do you TR Replica?

[Chara]

i guess it's unfair to say no one's been moving forward.
Farkran and Amrun are pushing lynches (even if the former is wrong) and Hectic pushed my spare, and Chemist's reason for the Nacho vote is one i actually don't hate. though it'd help if Nacho was present.

[Chara]

also, that flavour is very cute and i enjoy it very much, thank you pops.

[Chara]

i'm not very willing to handhold you a few posts because none of them would give you needed context by themselves. i think a lot of posts this game are important.

i also don't really care about your opinion on what needs investigation if you won't do any of the investigating or commit to a read. to put it another way, what you find interesting i don't find interesting, it's you sitting on your armchair making a comment about something that might be relevant but neither giving a conclusion nor even really asking a question. it leaves me unable to even ask why it would apply more to Replica (who is not even pushing a Hectic spare currently, and did not make any of the comments Hectic mentioned) because you don't actually know and are telling someone else to do the work.

i know you've given reads on Farkran and Psyche. why is Psyche town?

[Chara]

i can't make you read the game. someone with more free time than me might want to make some sort of summary, but i'm not sure how useful it would be.
concentrating solely on the posting you're actually here for isn't a bad thing, either. but when even that has statements like the end of 1240 it just looks like you're purposely weakening your own statements and i can't see the value in that besides trying to justify being wrong later, either to yourself or to the thread depending on your alignment.

[Chara]

ugh. that's on me. the way Bingle said it i thought he had noted it himself, but he was just agreeing with you now that i look again.
i'm kind of embarrassed about the tone of my last post to him, even though i think most of what i said still does apply it is kind of shitty of me to say that when the premise was a mistake to begin with.

i do read your posts, i just find them hard to parse without serious looking.
i'll back off on that until i get my shit together. sorry.

[Chara]

at this point i'm sort of in awe of myself at how badly i've misread your posts, so i'm just going to sit here and focus on... focusing. you were talking to Farkran there, and even referred to Psyche in the third person in the same post.

i still don't like your downplaying the strength of your reads but i don't think you deserved the tone i took in my most recent posts to you at all, and i apologize for that.

as an aside, really nice to see you back, Nacho.

pedit: this post is to Bingle.

[Chara]

mafia is really hard but i'm confident in sparing Hectic. that's about it. i got less confident about my reasons from Farkran and the wifom but fundamentally he's town and the best option for a spare today.

more interested in that than a Chemist lynch, though Nacho's made some good points about Chemist's earlygame reads. i still think his tone is towny but i also remember not liking the reasoning for Pine being LHF.

pedit: i'm hoping that your reply to 1287 is a joke Nacho but to be immensely clear in the face of me being an idiot, the majority of the post is to Bingle and the part at the end is to you because it's nice to see you! alright!

pedit again: Nacho, can you convince me on Farkran town? i'm wondering if i've been biased against him for a few reasons but it's not enough to be comfortable townreading him. i'm still working on his ISO and he made a good point in that i've been pretty unfair.

[Chara]

hey can you sheep me on either chemist or hectic?

Maybe. I feel like I can come around to Hectic town and chemist has done fuckall. I’m pretty confident that fark is town and fark is pretty confident that hec is scum though, so I’m gonna wait for a rebuttal.

why does fark think hec is scum?

i was hoping you were aware of this reason given he was in your townblock but i guess not. if you ISO me and Farkran there should be somewhere where this is discussed heavily. another perspective on that whole conversation would also be nice, because the frustration i felt is why i unvoted him (in my experience i don't get that annoyed with trying to understand to understand scum) but i'm of two minds on the whole thing.

pedit: that's also a TLDR. Farkran also mentioned town having no reason to delay their own spare, though i disagree with that point pretty heavily given scum has even more reason

not

to delay their own spare.

[Chara]

i'm more confident in my townreads than i think i could be in any scumread right now, which i know is lame
and i think Bingle's posting has been better than alimdia's so i disagree with Replica there, but i also don't townread the slot.

not caught up but Hectic spare is the best and if there's no way to get to that i'll be trying for option 2 and seeing if that one sticks instead.

[Chara]

hey all. trying to slowly get back into this before my vacation given the deadline. is Farkran's description of Bingle in the post just above yours accurate, Amrun?

and i should be here until deadline as well, my vacation isn't until after, i believe.

[Chara]

Farkran: why can scum never spare vote you? also, who exactly are you townreading now? i am currently rereading your posting and it's probably in there, but if you could restate any townreads that would help me understand your partner solves. do you still think me/Hectic is likely?

Psyche: not comfortable sparing Farkran right now.

Amrun: is Bingle's posting still mostly NAI to you? i've come around to the fact he's at least reading minimally enough to say something.

[Chara]

but Chara seems to be townreaded almost more than Hectic.

why do you think this is?

also, my last question is i think answered by this post.

[Chara]

how is it both true that you're not being townread enough for scum to spare you for towncred (first paragraph), but you're townread enough that it's a ballsy move for scum to spare you because it might actually go through? (paragraph 4)

[Chara]

Alright we're fine, this is FINE, haha WE ARE FINE

someone help

we are fine. calm down.

[Chara]

how is it both true that you're not being townread enough for scum to spare you for towncred (first paragraph), but you're townread enough that it's a

ballsy move for scum to spare you because it might actually go through

? (paragraph 4)

Read again: it's only apparently a ballsy move, because i only allowed it in a Psyche/Nacho solve. Nacho is the only other slot that claimed a townread on me, so scum!psyche would be 100% sure nacho wouldn't join therefore i could never be spared.

i'm not sure how likely it is that scum would think this way to begin with... and i'd be lying if i said i really understood it. this approach to categorizing teams is so alien to me.
it sounds like you don't think Hectic and i are scum anymore?

pedit: Replica i would love to but team analysis makes me want to cry. what i don't understand is what seems to be counting or discounting major scumreads based on possible teams or how they interact with each other in such a

specific

way to begin with, when distancing exists and when false distancing exists.

[Chara]

what does 3 spare/1 lynch have to do with it? the one lynch needs to be scum for it to work.

[Chara]

Re: Bingle TR

I don't think I need to justify why lynching my top TR is a "disaster" and the fact that you're acting as though it were a scumslip for a me/Bingle team and would immediately lead to my scumloss, speaks for itself. Literally anyone who townreads me should not at all be surprised by that reaction. People don't have to townread me, but acting like THAT of all things is out of alignment with how I've been all game long is a hoot.

as a rule i don't really like secondary meta. i maintain there are too many variables to determine anything particularly strong from a handful of games read cold, because things like thread environment/free time to dedicate to mafia/some other third thing, i don't know, affect posting significantly as well. i probably won't change your mind on this but i am listening if you have anything from this game that's convincing.

as for the rest of this post, yes it's strange to think you wouldn't be upset by a mislynch on your top TR.

[Chara]

what does 3 spare/1 lynch have to do with it? the one lynch needs to be scum for it to work.

Being confident in getting EXACTLY 3 town and 1 scum lynch is ... literally even worse than being confident in getting 4 town. I mean not even i, in my worst moments, have ego that overwhelmingly grand. If that was the assumption that made him push that exact route, i'm not buying it. Ever.

okay, but... back to the actual point being made here, which was Replica not wanting to mislynch a TR, where's the problem? what's the contradiction?

replica wants 4 spares: doesn't want to ruin it with a TR getting mislynched.
replica wants 3 spares and a scum lynch: still doesn't want Bingle lynched.

[Chara]

someone can be scumreading you confidently and not calling you the worst scum to have ever existed.
and... the rest of the post is a massive exaggeration so i don't see the point in responding to it.

taking a concept from Replica like (for example, i don't believe he actually said this), "i think you're scum, so i disagree with Psyche's decision to spare you" and turning it into "i think Psyche is the worst town player that ever existed" is just so far and away a misrepresentation of the situation. and that's just one part of the post.
this is what a strawman is, by the way. constructing a false argument in order to tear it down or discredit it.

[Chara]

To reiterate: i have an hard time buying that Replica was REALLY confident he could get a full town 4-spared strategy. You must assume you could spare one scum, and have a backup plan if that happens.

why? why must you?

i believe the exact same thing.

[Chara]

Anything changed with regards to your Nacho/Farkran reads since then, Chemist?

Honestly not really

Nacho’s push on me didn’t give me any warm feelings and Farkran is still posting well

can you go more into what you like about Farkran's posting?

[Chara]

at some point, after being answered several times, i would stop asking why and leave it. i don't see how you get any more out of it.

pedit@Psyche: but Farkran, you're sure on that?

[Chara]

Psyche: poetic, but i was more asking for some sort of additional explanation that isn't just "Farkran

is

town, he's just bad".

[Chara]

because my argument for scum Farkran has never been "well, he's bad."

at this point it's more like i find it hard to believe town Farkran doesn't reconsider when even players townreading him seem to think he's awful, because that's all i keep getting whenever i ask why he's town.
"well, i don't agree, but i like his fervor", or whatever it was you just said.
and i'm not calling him awful. to be clear. the issue here is i haven't seen evidence of Farkran really considering any outside opinions about... basically anything. well not the only issue but an issue.

Farkran: there are other things i'd like you to respond to but this post especially would be nice.

[Chara]

i still dont have a chara read

do you have any

thoughts

on me at all?

[Chara]

also Replica, i replied to your Bingle towncase and wanted to know if you had anything from this game.

pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's

still

an issue if he's town.

[Chara]

Other than one line at Nacho he hasn't blinked at all of the "these reads of Farkran's are batshit crazy he can't be scum" lines. Somehow me saying "Yeah if he's scum he's playing poorly imo" has caused the steam to rise considerably.

this too. it's what i meant when i wondered why a town Farkran hasn't reconsidered at all. he says he doesn't have a large ego but i feel like receiving townreads for that sort of reason would be really annoying and/or prompt some reconsideration.

[Chara]

I suppose my perception is that, despite your protestations, the rationales provided for your farkran scumreads are indistinguishable from criticisms of his play.

The "i haven't seen evidence of Farkran really considering any outside opinions about... basically anything" line is, again, a good example of this. How does that connect to him being scum?

I'd really rather Chara answer over anyone else pushing the wagon.

that's what i'm trying to figure out here. it's why i'm not voting to lynch him right now. i'm

not

confident he's scum.

if it's his personality, he can show me that himself in response. and if it

is

, maybe that could prompt some sort of rethinking on how he approaches the game. i don't know. mafia's a team game and i don't think soloing it is a good idea in the first place.

and if it's because he's scum, then i think it's a deliberate way to make him difficult to argue with, and possibly an attempt to emulate headstrong town.

again, your reasoning for him being town would be nice.

[Chara]

pedit: if Farkran is always like this, it's personality. there's no way to know that without poking at it, which is why i wanted Farkran to reply.
and it's still an issue if he's town.

if there's "no way to know" if it's personality then why does it come up in 1559, a post ostensibly about why you think farkran is scummy?

because thinking something and knowing it are two different things. i think it's scummy that town doesn't reconsider at all here. i won't know if that's the case unless i prod about it.

you can pretty much argue any tell is "just personality" if you go about it this way, so i'm not sure of your point.

[Chara]

ie. I'm very confident that alimdia showed a much more investigative and pondering mindset than they have in their scumgames, and am pretty sure the slot is town for it.

I have seen nothing from Bingle that makes me say "Yeah this guy is totally town", and at this point trying to lay out a case for it would be working backwards.

okay, thanks for the answer.
i haven't reread alimdia yet so i'll do that.

[Chara]

see a lot here about how you're not confident he's scum but nothing that's a rationale for thinking he's scum

i mean it's in the post, you disagreeing with it doesn't make it not exist.

[Chara]

suppose my rationale for farkran town is still that he seems to be really and sincerely obsessed with gamesolving and pursuing the town wc

do i really need to explain what i see in his posts that leads me to this feeling? is it really not obvious what the broad strokes of a farkran towncase looks like with this thesis? it just seems like a broadly predictable argument

considering the first time i asked about it you gave me "a town role PM doesn't make a man a poet", yes, it is nice to have you restate that that is still your reasoning and that you're sure.

[Chara]

there's more to reply to, but i'm not talking about reconsidering a read or reacting to the gamestate, i'm talking about things like taking criticism, or having your opinion changed through the opinion of a different player. team town play. when you said i was being confusing i made a concentrated effort to be less confusing and have hopefully been less so since.

not everyone plays like that. i gave Wisdom as an example of someone who often doesn't (i think he still has his title for that), but there are plenty.

i want you to respond to my assertion that the players townreading you don't seem to listen to you. there was Bingle, but he was sheeping and said he hadn't looked at the case. do you think they should listen? do you wonder why they don't? is my actual assertion wrong and you are being listened to? am i wrong to say the players TRing you don't like your play? that's what i want to know. it's information i could mine from the thread but that just isn't feasible for me right now and i'd like your opinion anyway.

also, your case on me and Hectic remains something scum could have done but a situation that also has a town explanation, as Hectic already pointed out.

as for dodging game-changing events; i gave my opinion on that when it happened. that's not dodging, it's disagreeing.

and given how much i've gone back and forth on you, i find it rather inaccurate to say i haven't been reconsidering anything either.

i'm not going to vote you because i'm not confident you'll flip scum. i want to spare. if i can't spare Hectic then i have other options for that. if you flip red you flip red. if you flip green you flip green.

[Chara]

and if it's because he's scum, then i think it's a deliberate way to make him difficult to argue with, and possibly an attempt to emulate headstrong town.

it could be personality =/= it's personality.

you're not going to agree with me but don't pretend i can't scumread someone while also continuing to sort them.

[Chara]

Really Replica? Can you not

even imagine

a world where we are in fact both scum? Why are you opposing this lynch so much?

somebody please kill me

i sympathize but i don't think this is really productive anymore.

pedit: i did look. what i wanted was to hear it from you and not to read it secondhand. i'm useless with cold meta and don't really trust my own interpretations of it.

[Chara]

out of the country until the 23rd. going to be doing my best to stick with the game and continue to post regularly.

[Chara]

alright.
i see the arguments for lynching today. i'm assuming they're sound, mechanics Chara is taking a nap at the moment.

pedit: why do we lynch me on a Nacho townflip?
i'd be happy to spare Replica if that's on the table.

[Chara]

Have you got any updated reads to share? Besides your recent V/LA announce, you seem less and less engaged with this game, your content hasn't progressed much - if at all - in terms of both quantity and quality. Do you still feel confident on your d1 solve? Why?

i didn't have a day 1 solve. if you mean read confidence, i was right on Psyche and i'm still confident Hectic is town, so nothing's especially shaken it. i haven't really had a chance to reasses in the days before my leaving. i did take Psyche's read on your into account while considering this game and i'm at the point where i can at least say he was likely right (including Amrun's contribution on the matter) about the stubbornness being more of a personality read.

i'd like to try and firm up TRs today if i'm going to be limited access.

[Chara]

2) Hectic and Chara have individual scum equity. You have scum equity mostly if partnered with Hectic, at this point. Before the Hectic spare was finalized, there was a chance that scum would take back their Hectic vote - if Hectic is town. Scum priority outcomes should go by: spare scum > lynch town > spare town > lynch scum.

i would like to hear about my individual scum equity. i think we talked about this earlier in the game regarding my lack of suspicion when Hectic voted me, which you found strange.

also: i don't think it wise to discount that scum might let town Hectic be spared or even help it along. combination of scum not playing optimally as you're suggesting

and

deciding it isn't worth pushing against. in a vacuum i don't see a town spare wagon necessarily being composed of only town. if this wasn't your point then by all means correct me.

[Chara]

Anything changed with regards to your Nacho/Farkran reads since then, Chemist?

Honestly not really

Nacho’s push on me didn’t give me any warm feelings and Farkran is still posting well

i asked about this the other Day, still interested in what at this time you liked about Farkran's posting.

i do get the sense this is about a normal level of engagement for you but it would help me read you if you expanded or at least talked through your thought process on this. and the Nacho read as well.

[Chara]

The only way that I think we reach some sort of resolution wrt Farkran's alignment is some kind of appointment where a couple of people either metadive or chat about his posts as a whole. I am reluctant doing such a thing because I have limited time and don't really want to spend time doing something completely useless, but will likely do the thing anyways, just not within the next 48 hours.

With Bingle it likely takes time - does he do something, does he float in the ether eventually. Will he help us catch scum? So I'm willing to lynch here, I just see waiting on him to get more than a day of posting in to be a better bet then killing him now.

I have nothing new to say. I don't know what you're expecting from me, so I reiterated my position. I'm not going to waste my time pounding my head against a brick wall re: you or Farkran; I don't believe that it's going to be productive in the least bit. Your meta on Farkran was superficial and incredibly biased; I would like to spend a day diving a little deeper - pointing out a couple things to you, you pointing out a couple things to me. This is the only way I can see my kind being changed.

Bingle just got here today. There's a chance he does something that make people change his mind on him. That's not going to happen on Farkran; either people on one side of the fence get taken out of the game or people convince other people on his alignment; I don't think that engaging him on things is particularly useful since it's just more of the same.

these two posts re: Farkran: what exactly do you mean by the last paragraph in the second post here? i'm reading this as you don't think it was productive at the time to get into a large Farkran discussion, but now (considering your last few posts that go very in-depth on figuring him out) it might be more productive.

or i'm not sure what you mean by "engaging him on things isn't particularly useful."

pretty sure i understand your position on Bingle, which is that more content opportunities = a better overall read. and i'm assuming Farkran is the opposite, since he already has plenty of readable content?

i sort of regretted this post once i started it but sunk-cost fallacy something something. also want to make sure i understand your point.

[Chara]

i think. Amrun is still town.

and Replica as well even though we seem to disagree on most every mafia sensibility up to and including 1) math, 2) small-sample meta. i sort of miss non-cats Replica but i don't know if it surprises me that he's gotten to this point.

[Chara]

Replica doesn't have a listed pronoun and bah.

i feel sort of uninvested at this very moment given i have about an hour or so of access a day which means trying to have an actual conversation with anyone isn't going to happen. which means i need to actually analyze things which i hate

but

if anyone could kindly wagon me with Farkran or something or else ask me to do a dive on a thing or a someone the next time i have access that'd be great, thanks.
bye for today.

[Chara]

Literally who wasn’t...? I tried to bargain Chemist into a single fight vote on him and couldn’t.

Psyche, cats, Chara I think, Chemist’s read was nebulous. Can’t remember your stance yesterday tbh. I think Farkran also TR that slot? Add me to the mix and it’s a spare easily tbh. Especially without me trying to constantly bring negative attention to the slot.

i don't TR Bingle.
i can only remember Psyche and Replica having a strong TR there.

Nacho asked about my Amrun read: i like the way she's interacted with Replica in spite of their disagreements re:Bingle and fighting vs. sparing. i also thought her reaction to my and Farkran's argument day 2 seemed very genuine, in how she commented on my having patience and mindmelding (which was not really the emotion but i see how she got there) and in general there hasn't been a lot that's bothered me. i think it's telling when a player with a low word-count like Amrun is easily understandable and followable. i've also agreed with a lot of her takes. not really the Bingle-scum fervor but i don't think her case is bad per se and she's said a few times she isn't 100% confident in the read. actually, Amrun, is there a reason you want to lynch Bingle more than spare Replica?

if she's scum then she's playing really well and loosely. maintaining something like that for the long haul is hard, in my experience.

Farkran: i didn't find Hectic's vote on me suspicious. it looked like paranoia and that's towny.

[Chara]

if this were a normal game i'd be helping wagon Bingle already. but with two instant-win scenarios i don't feel good about the odds of lynching him and being sure he's scum. a mislynch isn't a game ender but it's disappointing.
also can't really trust Chemist is town. he's in townlean-ville but i'm not happy with it.

Nacho i'm really happy to see the depth with which he seems to have internalized this game, or at least the first half of it. Nacho have you talked about why your Replica TR is confident?

[Chara]

i do like Farkran's read on Amrun in 1720.

but then his case on me feels like an oversimplification. i don't remember if it's true that i only gave two strong reads but i don't feel it is. i might have not discussed them?

it's true i'm not very interested in what scum is doing as a whole. it's not how i usually hunt. i mean, i can scumcase, but i'm most successful with and most confident in identifying town and then lynching outside of them.
Farkran: knowing that, and knowing i have more TRs than i've been 100% explicit about... actually, on paper i agree that fighting is probably a better idea information-wise and mathematically. it's just not something i can be confident in with my own reads.

[Chara]

i don't understand how you can confidently say scum Amrun could only be partned with you or Hectic. why can't she be partnered with me? or Chemist? or Nacho?

[Chara]

given we've discussed this

at length

already, and this is your response, i'm giving up on it. good job. i could explain again why it's perfectly normal to have a read waver and then change it based on rereading and on new information, but i'm sure you're going to deny that too and say that any reading besides yours doesn't make sense, in the same way that you seem to think everyone must do partner analysis when sorting scumreads as well.

[Chara]

i don't understand how you can confidently say scum Amrun could only be partned with you or Hectic. why can't she be partnered with me? or Chemist? or Nacho?

Why would team Amrun/{Chara, Chemist, Nacho} spare Hectic or Farkran, instead of sparing Chara, lynching Bingle or lynching Farkran? There were plenty of opportunities for both outcomes in d2, you only had to join your efforts. You wouldn't even be scumread for any of those, since you would have been going with the consensus, not against it. Instead, Chara and Nacho were creating even more consensus for Hectic spare, Amrun was pretty much alone in pushing Bingle and Chemist spared me.

why do you assume scumteams are going to publicly push for the same outcomes?

[Chara]

like the prospect of thinking something (that i'm scum denying his spare) and then

reconsidering

is so foreign to you? i know i said i was giving up but. i just can't fathom this. i get thinking it's

strange

but thinking it impossible someone thinks this way? or that they like my later posting and it affects their read? why doesn't that make sense?

[Chara]

my last post was i think uneccessarily hostile. this probably isn't going to go anywhere and i might just leave you in null and worry about the rest of the game for this day, and i keep saying that but i keep not doing it.
i need to go now anyways.

[Chara]

Replica: what do you want me to look at when i next have time to devote? it should be tonight or early tomorrow. but after going through the rest of this it will probably be Nacho.

i don't really understand how you have Chemist at a higher confidence for town than Amrun. Nacho i sort of get, but i should maybe put effort in that direction if i can't decide where to put my focus, since it's more that i lack a read on him than i agree with him being in a lynchpool. come to think of it i don't think i've given Nacho any attention at all.

and by the Amrun thing i mean i suppose i understand what you mean by her questioning towards you (don't know offhand what you mean by Amrun's Hectic progression but don't have time to check), but with respect to Chemist, i thought his response to Farkran's case was fine if not strongly AI. it's engagement but i feel like it's the easiest kind considering Farkran was and remained his strongest TR.

Amrun i feel has been engaging more naturally with the list as a whole. i don't have experience with scum Amrun so i can't compare it to any baseline but ignoring meta it's behaviour i like.

i don't want to jump the gun but regarding Bingle i'm enjoying that he now has the time and means to read the game and that it seems to have affected his reads on Farkran and i. curious about his Amrun case. i had thought he didn't plan to engage at all and don't remember him saying he was limited to mobile, but he did probably say that somewhere if he claims he did.

the only thing about Amrun i don't really like is her continued desire to lynch Bingle while not getting anything AI from his posting since repping in. i don't know if that's changed or not.

[Chara]

And then tell me what demolished your confidence today, because the only relevant difference that i can see is Psyche's death, which has nothing to do with me or Hectic since he voted for sparing both.

this is a reminder that i have a question for you after Replica has answered this.

[Chara]

Amrun i feel has been engaging more naturally with the list as a whole.

Really?

Cause personally I've felt that engaging with Amrun has had all the difficulty of leading a camel through the eye of a needle, and has since I replaced in.

in comparison to Chemist? yes.

maybe from your perspective she has not been, i really haven't been tracking her engagement with your slot specifically and i see your post on that, but when i think about her interactions with the game as a whole, yes. Chemist i've asked plenty of times to try and describe his reasons for his reads and gotten very little, besides the one on Farkran, and i find him hard to read due to the dearth of that content. he pops in and out but i don't feel like there's a lot of interaction besides his one time buckling down with Farkran. from what Replica's said it's not AI but it does make this harder.

i don't feel like missing questions or misunderstanding them is in general a scumtell though. moreso i find how Amrun has been doing it has come off as towny. she's made a fair few reachouts (Replica to my memory, you more recently, Nacho) that i was thinking of.

as an aside, apparently it's rude to "text" around family, when i came over here to be alone and was followed. go figure.

[Chara]

And yes, I see that Chara responded.

what's your conclusion from that? i haven't had time to go over your Amrun case in detail though i've gotten the gist. i think she's right about the general absence of strong pushes this game.