White Flag - TM2020

[gobbledygook]

Throughout the game I haven't seen you act on them that much?

Wouldn’t that indicate apprehension and unsureness and at the very least not happiness? I think it’s odd to derive a that i have happy state of mind given the data you’re looking at.

I think this is unfortunately an aspect of my town game. I’m not infallible. I have plenty of games to show that too.

[gobbledygook]

Will be able to link tonight but you’ll be asleep. Can’t do rn, sorry

[gobbledygook]

FF going VLA isn't a good sign. Can we collectively ask for a deadline extension?

We have 9 days until the deadline. This seems a little reactionary, Auro.

But I will be doing some meta searches for Cheeky.

[gobbledygook]

Ok, Auro. I think I have read enough of Cheeky's scum games. The most recent completed scum game she has is Micromence Vengeful where Cheeky's team turbolynched me Day 1. I did not feel much emotion in her posting in that game other than an off hand comment of "make sense or die" to pisskop (one of her buddies).

Other than that game, Cheeky has not recently been scum. At least, that I found. There may be alt or hydra games that I have missed.

Overkill 2 is probably the closest I could find to a game that matches her playstyle this game. However, I don't think anything in that game reaches the level of emotion that I am seeing here. Post 2048 comes close to the type of attitude we see in this game, but the sheer volume of emotional posting from Cheeky in this game distinguishes her play here from her play in Overkill 2.

Gunner Mafia might be a good game to look at too. I do not think she's reached the same level of emotion, but she does have more "emotional" posts with using caps locks and repetition. Looking through all of these games, I feel like Cheeky as scum doesn't get upset because she knows the townies are just doing their jobs.

Everything is Completely Normal is the next closest game I could find, emotionally. Cheeky is slightly aggressive to Nero Cain in this game, but again, not to the level we have seen in this game. Cheeky was lynched Day 1 in this game too, so I would think that she would be particularly emotional. It does not appear so, even as you look at the end of her iso.

Then we have Pop Goes the Guns and Mini Normal 2002, but I do not think she is emotional at all in those games.

Finding these games (Cheeky you're like never scum) and reading them took a lot longer than I would like to admit. Plus, I kept getting distracted by shiny things.

At any rate, I am about to have another completed game to add to my collection for you to look through, Auro. I'll let you know once it is official.

These are some of my town games that I think are pretty exemplary of how bad my play can be. Black Versus Whiteis probably the worst, followed by Menalque's Favorite Places. That said, I think Added to the Group Chat and Zen show similar frustrations with the game/players that I had on Day 1 in this game. Finally, the Search I think is a good example of how I wall flower from time to time when I have little grasp on the game.

This meta dive I did on Cheeky only reinforced that I probably do not want to lynch her this game. If she is scum, she is playing really well and honestly deserves the win. Also, it is really annoying that sometimes direct links to a person's iso does not work. I feel technologically illiterate when sometimes I can make the link work, but then other times I cannot figure out why the link is not working.

[gobbledygook]

I’ve also been away for grad auditions

They went horrible but that’s another story

Like I can give y’all my lynch order preference if that would help

I would actually prefer if you did not give lynch order preference in the event we chose wrong today. Also, I am sure that you did better than you think for your grad auditions! We will see you on the big screen in no time.

[gobbledygook]

Gobbles can you fucking activate town gobble mode?

We online now.

Jellyfish survived for millions of years without a brain

What...?

Which one of those am I wrong on? NaCL proved in the Open that he can write consistent cases as scum. Just one scumgame I skimmed from Farkran indicates he's perfectly capable of looking town as scum. And that accounts for basically all of the reasons Dann is town reading him.

I am out of the loop here, but what do these people have to do with anything? That they would be ghostwriting Dong's posts?

Absolutely fascinating that Dong and Gobble are no where on his radar. Also, extremely fascinating that, despite Dann being in his scum list both times, he's more than happy to vote for Auro instead, the leading wagon.

Hm, I like this post by Dann. But I have a couple of systemic issues. Why don't they just lynch me then Cheeky if those lynches are so easy? Why go for the harder lynch in Auro? Also, why would they be back to back on the wagon as a team? That could potentially kill all viability on Auro.

Dann, you seem equally convinced about Dong and Fish, so why the Fish vote?

[gobbledygook]

I'd rather lynch gobbles for posturing around every lynch and Dunn dying over Dann.

What do you mean by posturing?

[gobbledygook]

Why go for the harder lynch in Auro?

Auro is evidently not the harder lynch

I mean, from that perspective, no lynch is hard for the scum because they just need 2 vote to get it?

[gobbledygook]

Let's say you're town. But you and Cheeky came into the day with the idea that Auro might be scum.

A Dong/Gobble team would find it much easier to push Auro in that case, with the aid of paranoia against me, than pushing you

both you and cheeky*

a dong/FF team*

I'm tired

"Let's say you're town. But you and Cheeky came into the day with the idea that Auro might be scum. A Dong/FF team would find it much easier to push Auro in that case, with the aid of paranoia against me, than pushing both you and Cheeky."

Is that how the original post was supposed to be read, Dann?

[gobbledygook]

I feel like FFscum makes better kills, especially with a Dong teammate. Unless the dead people were scumreading Dong? I'll need to check that. I could see FF killing people who scumread his weaker scumbuddy to help prevent his weaker scumbuddy's death.

[gobbledygook]

I feel like FFscum makes better kills, especially with a Dong teammate. Unless the dead people were scumreading Dong? I'll need to check that. I could see FF killing people who scumread his weaker scumbuddy to help prevent his weaker scumbuddy's death.

IIRC Dunn at least had Dong as his top scum read

If that’s true, that’s probably the smoking gun.

But I am going to bed. Before work I will look through Kitty and Dunn’s iso.

[gobbledygook]

If you remember, can you explain why Dann would have looked bad but not Molla, considering Dann started the wagon?

Do you mean the first to vote? I think theres a niche difference between that and “starting the wagon”

To answer yo ur second question - yes, I think I did that in at least two or three of the games I linked earlier tonight

[gobbledygook]

I wouldn’t have done it in Search because that had a second win condition which I needed to win and it required me to never die. As an innocent child.

I think I did it in Zen, Favorite Places, and Black versus Whire

[gobbledygook]

Optics of flash wagon in town and then eventual NSG flip look really bad for the participants on the flash wagon. I think Dann is a scum player to realize that future implication is pretty damning in a game type where two scum lynches ends the game.

[gobbledygook]

Ok actually bed time now

[gobbledygook]

Yes

[gobbledygook]

Dann, thoughts on Gobbles?

[gobbledygook]

Oh wait. I did that wrong

[gobbledygook]

I had a dream we killed Dong and we won the game.

But Menalque and EP agree with me that they think Cheeky is town. EP wants BBmolla to be mason buddies with us

[gobbledygook]

yay! Looking forward to your catchup.

Sorry to hear you’re taking a hiatus after this though. I support you.

[gobbledygook]

And the mislynch streak continues!! viewtopic.php?f=83&t=81849

It’s kinda sad how that game is playing out like this game. I get a scum killed day 1 in a setup where scum are disincentivized to bus and then I still get mislynched.

Y
A
Y

[gobbledygook]

no

[gobbledygook]

The thing js

[gobbledygook]

I’m driving so bare with me. That my team and I think if the game doesn’t end today with the correct lynch then we agree I’m probably getting turbo lynched in LyLo.

So I’ve been trying to slow down today to see people’s moves and what not and I’ve been trying to get my team to pay more attention to this game but they have been really busy irl since I got un-busy irl

I think I’m happy with Cheeky town after meta diving your scum games. I’m also happy with BBmolla for wagon stuff from Day 1. Same with Fish. That said I wish BBmolla and Fish were here more today to help parse the game

As I interact with Auro I think I realize that even if he is scum he would not make the type of logical inconsistencies that most scum normally make and it’s lessening my preference on him.

My issue is that I cannot square away little things today with Auro that look disingenuous like his reaction over the Fish VLA or the multiple times I was confused by NSG/FF comment

[gobbledygook]

Yes

[gobbledygook]

I’d be voting Dong right now if it wasn’t for the fact that half the playerlist seems to want to end the day immediately.

[gobbledygook]

Auro can you link some of your scum games?

[gobbledygook]

I have been pushing you really really hard - so you think my case(s) on you were justified?

When were you pushing me really hard? ToDay?

[gobbledygook]

When were you pushing me really hard? ToDay?

Ever since D2? Did you not get the impression that I was pushing you?

To be honest, I thought your push Day 1 was stronger than anything else you've done towards me. It might be because I have mostly accepted my fate

[gobbledygook]

Let’s wait until Fish comes back..?

[gobbledygook]

And where'd he get mad and cuss people out? Are you talking about a previous day? Lolwut is there some big gap in my memory?

I agree with this. I don’t think I’ve cussed anyone out, BB. I try not to cuss in general.

Auro, when that Hopkirk wagon happened I wasn’t even here. So who made the Hopkirk wagon happen?

[gobbledygook]

I feel like if Auro isn’t scum, then Dong scum and his partner are letting Auro do all the heavy lifting today to get another mislynch.

Why can’t I make up my mind about you, Auro

[gobbledygook]

I don't get how your question about Hopkirk helps. What was the point of it?

If I was scum, I would have to be scum with someone who made the Hopkirk wagon happen because that person would have needed to protect me. Otherwise, I would have just gotten lynched when I was VLA. Who would that person be?

[gobbledygook]

Just putting this out - Gobble, please don't hammer before Cheeky and/or I make up our mind, I'll treat a hammer from you as a scum claim.

???

Why would I hammer when I’ve been very public about slow rolling this day?

[gobbledygook]

idk gobble maybe my vote didn’t show up in your preview

What? Auro’s question has nothing to do with the technical/physical nature of me being able to see the vote and react to it.

It seems like a weird statement to make when I have been very open how we should be going slow today and that we shouldn’t hammer until people have posted their thoughts. I don’t get why he would be panicked that I would hammer given I’ve had multiple opportunities to hammer people this day phase.

[gobbledygook]

Molla was the third vote and I see him as a pretty viable partner to you - is there strong evidence otherwise to that association?

Yes? BBMolla is very likely town given his wagon was the DIRECT counter wagon to NSG’s in the umpteenth hour

[gobbledygook]

Dann's referring to how FF hammered Hopkirk within a minute of Cheeky's L-1 vote and claimed that her vote didn't show up in the preview.

Oh I didn’t know that’s what explicitly happened. I have been having issues with my pedit lately, but I think it’s an internet issue not a board issue.

Either way, I’m just gonna lollygag into the game on my lunch break and post a vote and then peace out when all my actions today have shown I specifically don’t want that

[gobbledygook]

I think I’d rather pass a kidney stone than make a decision in this game.

[gobbledygook]

Me too. Half of me just wants you all to kill me now so you all can go to LyLo and wish you were me.

[gobbledygook]

BBmolla, you’re scumreading me for my post count?

[gobbledygook]

I will be here tonight

[gobbledygook]

I am here. I am ready to vote Dong. I think everyone has said their piece

[gobbledygook]

If it isn't you and Dong, then it is Dong + Dann in my mind.

[gobbledygook]

I do think your play this day phase has been better than Dann's

[gobbledygook]

Why would it be Dong+Dann? Did you look at who's voting for Dong right now?

I did. Dong is also voting for you. I have already stated that there is an odd phenomenon that scum in the later days of White Flag hard bus one another to disassociate from one another.

If the wagon actually goes through that's one thing, but we won't know until that happens.

[gobbledygook]

I don't graph in every game for admittedly selfish reasons. 1. It takes a lot of time. I manually count everyone's posts across every day. That is a serious amount of birdpower. 2. I try not to graph in games that I start because if players see me in the game from the start, they may change their posting habit. I have posted this reasoning in multiple games where I have graphed. 3. I have graphed as scum on this site.

[gobbledygook]

You're yet to make a towncase for Molla.

I feel like we have been down this road multiple times. I am town reading him because of his wagon stuff. You have disregarded this about three times now. I don't think I could read BBmolla based off his play. I played a game with him, without being a mason, and I didn't feel confident reading him as town at all in that game. Additionally, when I WAS masons with him, he did some really weird stuff that I would have scumread, but I just disregarded because that's how he plays.


BBmolla is the archetype of player that I am predisposed to scumread though based on his general playstyle. But, I feel like his Day 1 is a likely indicator that he is town. You can disagree with this for a 4th time.

[gobbledygook]

His late game wagon had mostly the same core players as the NSG wagon.

Uh? That's to be expected when the day 1 wagon is the largest wagon of the game.

[gobbledygook]

I think BBmolla scum kills me over Hopkirk. I don't think he tries to actually work with me.

[gobbledygook]

Gobbles can you give your lynch order from scummiest to towniest?

Dong > Auro > Dann

[gobbledygook]

I felt townie vibes from his emotional outbursts earlier in the game. Plus, I think the way he was a major wagon the fist day and then NSG tried to self preservation wagon him makes him town. I also feel like scumFish doesn't kill the people that died.

[gobbledygook]

<3 mason buddy

I find it interesting that Auro is fixated on me and my activity but is giving Dong a pass for his

[gobbledygook]

I’m not going to do graphs this game. On top of everything I’ve said, you people have a stupid number of posts each.

[gobbledygook]

How do you get that I am playing better than the Black versus White game?

[gobbledygook]

Or Zen?

[gobbledygook]

I am not playing better*

[gobbledygook]

I’ve literally been efforting this entire day.

[gobbledygook]

Oh and Dong isn’t voting for Auro anymore. HMMM

[gobbledygook]

The forum is super borked right now. Dann, I don’t even think we go into a tomorrow. I think the game just ends with a Dong lynch. I will laugh so hard if it is Auro + Dong though.

VOTE: Dong

I believe that’s two votes on him.

[gobbledygook]

Oooh this might be Dong + Dann with that vote and plead for Cheeky.

[gobbledygook]

LETS KILL DONG THEN WHO HAS WAY MORE CHANCE OF BEING SCUM THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THIS GAME

Look at his interactions with the NSG wagon, look at his play today.

Pedit:

I think you do have a higher chance of being scum than others but no, I think the game ends with Dong

[gobbledygook]

You’re holding me to unreasonably high standards. Full stop.

[gobbledygook]

If I am as good as you say, I shouldn’t be getting turbolynched Day 1 all the time.

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky, I’m sorry I haven’t read everything yet and can’t until tonight, but what do you mean posture about Espeonage? I thought it was clear that I thought he was town and disagreed with the premise that he and I were scum together? I thought I was vocal about that

[gobbledygook]

I also don’t get the logic that resistance to my wagon means I’m scum when like 3-4 people have been saying I’m town and then flipping saying I’m scum and then flipping saying I’m town. I can’t be scum with them all

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky, why do you think it’s more likely damn over Dong?

[gobbledygook]

I think I’m getting a migraine. I will be here later tonight

[gobbledygook]

Gobbles can you talk about how you've been voting Dong all game and haven't really reassessed when people flip? Iirc you are usually all over the place with your reads akin to my playstyle, where you constantly reassess. Why do you think that's different here?

Gobbles answer this.

I don't think I am always all over the place with my reads. When I think I am right I am pretty dogged about them. I think I have displayed this a lot recently. My Amrun read in Micromence Vengeful. My Wooper scumread in Mainstream Mafia II. My pisskop read in Mainstream Mafia II. My Deathtunneling Woats read in Radja's Story II. I think I am right about Dong. I also have been reassessing. I reassed on you. I reassessed on Dunn before he died. I have been pretty uncertain about Auro today.

I guess my point is 1) I think I have done what you think I would do, but 2) even if you don't think I've done what you think I would do, that's still something I do do. My headache has mostly subsided, so I have time to devote to this tonight

[gobbledygook]

I kill myself

[gobbledygook]

Working on that response to your earlier question Cheeky

[gobbledygook]

Cobbled together reasons between me and EP for why we think that Dong is scum.

Yeah formers scum.

I have never believed his posts were anything outstanding, but thats not the smoking gun for me. The last 3 posts he made seem like its coming from frustrated scum that got caught due to luck, and his desperation to switch to a NSG wagon shows that also.

Dong is aggressively shading Formerfish here for his vote on the NSG wagon. This has the double effect of defending against an NSG lynch by painting the people voting her in a bad light. This also helps try to move the town towards a Formerfish lynch (which was a very real possibility at this point in the game).

Gobble wagon seems rushed. I think people caved in too early to formers offensive.

I especially didnt like that nsg was MIA and yet former still said she was making it a 1v1, shes not even here

I will also say that i dont like how cheeky attacked dunn out of thin air - it seems like it was meant as a way to lull the nonattentive to thinking dunn was doing something malicious against her when he wasnt. As far as i see its not like she scumreads him either so wtf?

EP has a few quick thoughts about this post. He says that it is a misrepresentation of Formerfish "going into a 1v1" with NSG. EP also says that this is another soft defense of NSG when Dong said "shes not even here" because it is providing a subtext that NSG's lynch will have less appealing information than a Formerfish lynch.

I think this post is interesting because here Dong states that he does not like how Cheeky attacked Dunn. This will be important because this seems to imply a scum read on Cheeky. I think this is also a potential buddy comment with Dunn who was townreading Dunn at the time.

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

The timing of the vote is suspect to me.

Yeah formers scum.

I have never believed his posts were anything outstanding, but thats not the smoking gun for me. The last 3 posts he made seem like its coming from frustrated scum that got caught due to luck, and his desperation to switch to a NSG wagon shows that also.

It comes several hours after this post where Dong acknowledges the read.

Why didn't Dong vote Former there

^ And Dong is posturing around voting Former, yes

It also comes after these posts where Dann and Dunn discuss that Dong's actions around the Formerfish wagon look like posturing.

Im not posturing. You think we're done? I wanted to use the some time left over to make up for my activity.

To which Dong replies that he isn't posturing.

Why didn't Dong vote Former there

Not a logical reason yes but i didnt check the vc or the deadline, i just wanted to get in whatevee i had in mind and go to bed

Not defending myself but i dont want anyone to get the wrong ideas either.

And a very passive defense of himself. The way this post is worded gives me the impression that Dong did not want to look like he was strongly defending himself against that attack out of a fear for how the optics might look.

EP then says the next string of posts don't make much sense because of Dong's stated reads and their progressions.

Nsg/cheeky/maybe hop

We have this group of three, which appears to be a townbloc given the defense of NSG.

Thats where my mind is at. I dont think i will be considering anyone else to lynch tomorrow but i do want to make a case on esp come tomorrow.

This is seemingly reinforced by the comment here that he wants to push Espeonage the next day. If it was a scum list, Dong would have listed Espeonage in that list.

But if that is a town list, it doesn't explain Dong's earlier comment that he did not like Cheeky's attack on Dunn, a person who he openly defending and town reading.

Im starting to turn on ceph and i tr kitty. I didnt like hops recent posting however.

And it further doesn't make sense when he is softly attacking Hopkirk here.

So really, what is that list? And why is NSG in it when she was barely present as Dong himself stated?

Thanks cap.
VOTE: Formerfish

Nsg/cheeky/maybe hop

I could vote here for sure. Votes me but doesn't have me as scum...

Lol? I already said that was my suspect list for tomorrow. Today its just you, and i think your fates been sealed

Ah, so it IS a scum group. But there's no justification for NSG being there. Especially given Dong's earlier statements about NSG and the oblique defense of the NSG wagon by virtue of attacking Formerfish. Here Dong discusses Formerfish's wagon as if it is a done deal. He is actively pushing the narrative that Formerfish is the lynch today, even though he apparently now scumreads NSG.

This progression doesn't track for me or EP.

fuck your attempt to deflect onto me

Hes not detlecting you idiot, dunns been active. Do you know what deflecting means?

Here we see a further defense of Dunn, which I think is important because it could explain why Dunnstral was later killed after his support on Dong was visibly weakening.

I like these wagons what course should I be taking?

Former seems like its a done deal at this pointz i doubt trying to flip everyone on nsg at the last moment will work, and im pretty sure on former (im also convinced on nsg but in a decision of one or the other...)

Again, here Dong is pushing the narrative that Formerfish is a done deal. Not that he is even scum. Just that his wagon is a done deal and it should happen. I think this post is incredibly important in analyzing Dong's thought process of the situation. BUT Dong even gives us more information saying that he could also vote NSG, but one or the other he chooses Former because it is a "decision of one or the other..." when in reality his vote would have made NSG's lynch secure, but his vote on Formerfish just made that wagon a contender.

I like these wagons what course should I be taking?

Former seems like its a done deal at this pointz i doubt trying to flip everyone on nsg at the last moment will work, and im pretty sure on former (im also convinced on nsg but in a decision of one or the other...)

This is a pretty lazy excuse, your vote on nsg would put her to l-1, while your vote on FF ties the wagons at l-2, so "flipping everyone" isn't something that needs to happen if you wanted to

I'll be willing to flip on nsg if formers wagon stops traction, but its not because i scumread nsg over him but rather to just get a lynch in. I'm still in full support of a former hanging.

Dunnstral even calls him out for that very same premise! And Dong backtracks on his certainty of the Formerfish wagon using totally external reasoning rather his own thoughts. This is a parachute phrase. Dong is saying he won't move his vote unless certain external criteria occurs, which he is actively preventing from happening by pushing the narrative that Formerfish's wagon is done.
Now we get into the reason why I have been HMMing the end of Day 1 wagons when we have votes like this...

Sure, tomorrow we can have a better discussion.

VOTE: BB
L1 i think

On someone who was not in his list of scum. Someone he did not openly say he wanted to pressure or case. A vote despite Formerfish being a "done deal."
This is blatantly a preservation vote to protect NSG. Notice how the Formerfish wagon LOST TRACTION yet Dong DID NOT VOTE NSG. This is directly contradictory to what he said he would do earlier.

I still dont like cheeky but im not the nk, i can expand on that tomorrow.

He still doesn't like Cheeky, yet he is fully willing to join a flash wagon that she started. How does that make sense from a town perspective? It doesn't. It makes sense from the scum perspective of a player wanting to get a lynch.

Why is every top wagon just kicking and screaming and then we go on to another wagon

Dong is openly bemoaning that this is now the SECOND wagon that someone has used emotion to get themselves out of.

NSGs not here to flood an entire page with insults, guess thats who were lynching today then

Here is again softly defending NSG by calling out reasoning for people unvoting.

Thats the worst compromise for me but sure..

VOTE: NSG

He then says that the NSG hammer is the worst compromise for him when he was openly stating he saw her as scum earlier. Dong's reads and actions surrounding these wagons

do not make sense

. Given his earlier comments, it is not the worst compromise. It was the ORIGINAL compromise he agreed to when he said he would vote there if the Formerfish wagon lost traction. Which it did. To which he then voted BBmolla. A wagon that was started by one of his earlier stated scum reads. A scum read that he still maintained as we can see in the quote below.

That flash BBmolla wagon has to be scumdriven change my mind

I agree. I believe that cheeky especially should be looked into tomorrow.

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

The icing on the cake is that Dong is openly trying to get people to stop talking about things simply because he hammered and the flip was coming. What? Why would a townie want that to happen? Why wouldn't he want to continue to talk especially when he made a comment that he was CONCERNED about his activity and interactions in the thread here:

Im not posturing. You think we're done? I wanted to use the some time left over to make up for my activity.

Why didn't Dong vote Former there

Not a logical reason yes but i didnt check the vc or the deadline, i just wanted to get in whatevee i had in mind and go to bed

Not defending myself but i dont want anyone to get the wrong ideas either.

Again, the trains of thought coming from Dong do not make sense.

This is why EP and I are convinced that Dong is scum.

When Dong opened with a case against Auro and then just slipped into the background today... it is all scummy to us.

[gobbledygook]

I also think part of the reason why I may appear more dogged in this game is that I am potentially being less interactive with you guys because I have EP and sometimes Menalque to bounce ideas off rather than having to do that in thread with you guys. It is possible that I am in an echo chamber though.

[gobbledygook]

Formerfish you were in Mordhaus?

[gobbledygook]

I legitimately want to know who you guys vote in lylo if Dong is town and I get NK'd

Thats getting dangerously close to fishing of sorts cheeky.

All you can really get from us is the agreement that we wont rush into anything, which youve gotten from gob, dong, myself and others

What are you implying? That I'm scum fishing? Why is it bad to figure out where I feel safest trusting my vote today.

I probably vote one of Auro or Dann given that they have worked this entire day to mislynch me.

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky, when I flip town, who will you go after next?

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky, when I flip town, who will you go after next?

lol

Dann, I seriously hope you're scum with Dong

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky, when I flip town, who will you go after next?

You're not who I'm pushing as the lynch. But in that scenario I would then lynch in Auro/Dann

I didn't mean for that post to come across like you're pushing me as scum and then when I flip town who will you push. More of, when I flip as town, how will that affect your reads for the next day.

[gobbledygook]

Wait.

Fish.

You've seen me be this dogged as town before. I literally faked a guilty on GreyIce in the game you played as Mordhaus. No one else was scumreading him so I faked a guilty to get him killed. And then Jingle yelled at me

[gobbledygook]

If Dong flips town and I live I'd probably vote you gobbles.

That's fair, I think this game ends with Dong though

[gobbledygook]

This game feels like Sisyphean effort to get Dong lynched

[gobbledygook]

I'm not so egotistical to think I am perfect, so we can wait until Dong gets back to address my case, but we also have only 4 days and are about to enter a weekend

[gobbledygook]

I'm just saying that if we give scum a road map with all the potential traps laid out in bold print on the map we can't very well expect scum to fall into any of those traps when they know where they are, what sets them off and how to diffuse them.The only thing we have to our advantage now is the ability to hold our cards close to our chest. We need scum to worry about who they need to kill tonight to endgame successfully. Then again this could l be a moot point and we just end things today.

I don't think this is as dangerous as you think it is because everyone has been pretty open with their reads. I also don't think in LyLo scum kill people who are townreading them. They need every vote they can get.

[gobbledygook]

Oh I just remembered when Dong asked people to stop talking because the hammer occurred, that reminded me of Non Imh in a newbie game where she hammered me and I called her out for being scum for it and she said something eerily similar that I should just be quiet because I was lynched.

She was scum.

[gobbledygook]

It's terribly easy to make a scum case on Dong

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[gobbledygook]

Dong is clearly not with Me {if he was, I'd have his vote}
Dong is clearly not with Dann {today's play}

Please explain how his play today shows he is not with either of you.

I especially do not understand how he could only be with you if you had his vote when he is currently not voting...

[gobbledygook]

Like his vote doesn't have to be tacked onto yours for his vote to be yours

And I think you know that, Auro.

[gobbledygook]

Because I want to lynch you, and I'd rather have {Auro/Dann} lynched over Dong which is game-losing; Cheeky agreed to lynch you and Dann and I already were, Dong would be the fourth vote.

And then what happens when Dong gets to tomorrow on my town flip...? You're acting like this is LyLo and applying LyLo principles when scum would not do that as it puts them in a very bad spot for LyLo.

Also, even if it WAS LyLo principles this only works if I was L-1 with a Cheeky vote.


I also do not understand why you think Dong is game losing but you're ok with yourself being lynched...? Which you obviously are not.

[gobbledygook]

I literally do not understand why Auro is ok with himself dying over Dong and I feel like this is a massive gambit.

[gobbledygook]

This might be scum's Last Stand.

[gobbledygook]

And then what happens when Dong gets to tomorrow on my town flip...?

I get lynched. There's no win path for me given Dong and FF both will vote me with Dann alive. And I'm scum, yeah? So that's a win for town.

So you're killing Cheeky tonight then?

[gobbledygook]

Oh I just remembered when Dong asked people to stop talking because the hammer occurred, that reminded me of Non Imh in a newbie game where she hammered me and I called her out for being scum for it and she said something eerily similar that I should just be quiet because I was lynched.

She was scum.

That was the game I repped into. And I'm not sure this is evidence against Dong as Non was saying it in a SvT scenario whereas scum!dong makes it an SvS scenario.

Hm. I'm not sure that the composition of the scenario matters actually. But even if it does, it wasn't like Dong was the one telling NSG not to talk here. he was talking to NotNSG. I think who the people were talking to is more important.

[gobbledygook]

Ahahaha so you can NK Cheeky and we're at the same spot tomorrow with one less town vote? Sure pal.

uh... you literally said it with your scenario.

But ok.

[gobbledygook]

Ok. Well this is devolving into nothing productive. I am going to bed.

[gobbledygook]

Auro, if I am bad, why are you trying to kill me so hard. The game state makes sense where the scum realize I’m bad and thus want to save me as a mislynch.

[gobbledygook]

Gobbles what do you make of FF's read progression on you?

I am inclined to town read it because he is town reading me, but he also has some of the most experience with me. I think he’s tied with Molla for the number of games played with me. I think that also is telling when the people with actual experience with me seem to think I’m town whereas Auro and Dann don’t have experience with me and want me to die.

To answer your other question, I think I’m generally an above average scum reader. I think I am generally a below average player though because no one listens to me and I present myself as lynch able. There has to be something about me or my play that I do that makes people want to lynch me. I don’t really know what it is though

[gobbledygook]

1. I didn’t ignore it. Why do you think I ignored it.
2. This should be obvious from the discussion we had less than 12 hours ago.
3. I will save you the work.
4. You.

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky, a vote today isn’t gambling the whole game away. Even if we are wrong on Dong, we will get another chance. If you mislynch me, you’ll get another chance tomorrow.

[gobbledygook]

Well, tell me a suitable partner for Dong who isn't Dann, I'll be happy to sheep.

Gobbles it's pretty obvious that if we mislynch today Auro is lynched tomorrow.

I feel like this won’t happen. It will be me if we are wrong on Dong and it will be Dong when I get mislynched

[gobbledygook]

VOTE: Auro

I am quickly becoming tired of Auro’s antics.

[gobbledygook]

What happens if Dong flips town?

I kill myself

LMAO good one buddy
Can we talk at some point? I've been trying to converse directly with you for a few days now.

I am here. What did I miss from you?

Do you also want to respond to my case on you? Quid pro quo

[gobbledygook]

Dong, other than responding to the case, is there anything you want me to address?

[gobbledygook]

VOTE: Gobble

You wound me BB

[gobbledygook]

I’ll respond to you after dinner Dong

[gobbledygook]

What the fuck does aggressively shading mean? I'm openly saying that former is scum there, there is no shading going on. The only reason i didnt vote FF was because he was L-1 a page ago, i want a lynch but i want to make a consensus lynch instead of lolhammering. Thats a scummy thing?
Also, no shit, i wanted to lynch former and didnt want to lynch nsg. You're just coming to that conclusion?

Shading is when you are obliquely saying something about someone. The reason I characterized it as shading is because of the lack of vote.
In a vacuum, not wanting to lolhammer is a good thing, but stating that is the reason you are voting looks LAMIST to me.
No, I have had this conclusion for this day phase. I said it because I was making a case.

Oh? How is that a misrepresantation? If you're going to say something, explain it so i dont have to fish it out.
Also, one quick question:
Did nsgs lynch provide any information?
If we lynched former, we would have lynched nsg tomorrow and both auro and dann would have been at a knifes edge. The game situation would have been better.
Also yeah, i hard scumread cheeky for the longest time. You're just saying things that have been clear for ages like its a brand new revelation.

I will ask EP to expand on this thought, but he has been pretty MIA today due to a sickness. I think Dunn also said that this 1v1 comment was a misrepresentation. To me, what NSG looked like was blatantly self preserving. She voted for a viable counter wagon to her own wagon. 1 v 1 does not mean the person spirals into a death tunnel on the other.
I think NSG's lynch does provide information. Particularly information on who supported it and who was against it. I have been very open about my distrust of the people who were against the NSG lynch. I'm not sure why you asked this question?
I am analyzing your play. That requires me to establish baseline premises for your play.

Whats your point
Like, there is nothing for me to say here. There is no point.
It comes several hours after i say former is scum, because like i said, he was at l-1 just last page. I didnt want to risk lolhammers or hurrying up the lynch.
I wasnt posturing, and you didnt say anything about that.
And no, i dont care about "how the optics look" or about defending myself. I have been heavily scumread this entire game. The optics look like a boot fished from the marianas trench. I didnt defend myself because i dont care, my number 1 priority is finding scum which at that point i hadnt done.

My point is that you only actually voted after players began to openly question your play with regards to not voting. This vote does not look like it has the internal motivation of trying to scumhunt. It looked like the vote was prompted by the discussion of your lack of voting.

Its a lynch list.
"I wouldnt consider lynching anyone besides those tomorrow" means its a lynch list.
I only defended nsg because there wasnt enough info to go around. Same drum.
On espeonage, mind the "BUT" in the sentence. I wouldnt want to lynch outside that group BUT i want to make a case on esp.
Its such an easy thing, you can just ask me instead of speculating. You know, if you considered me to be aligned with the same faction instead of burrowing your head underground and doing whatever auro and dann want you to.

You weren't around at the time, so I apologize that I couldn't ask you. I made the case and am talking to you now, though.

If that is your lynch list, why did you then later make the comment that you hated it as a compromise when objectively by this list BBmolla should be an even worse compromise lynch but you voted there without hesitation.

Either i kill him tonight since he clearly isnt in the mood to support me (whatever that means) or i never bother with him because im not scum.
The guy has me at his killpool, but apparently his support meant a lot to me. Sure.

In either scenario, buddying Dong is beneficial to you. It prevents him from pushing you, and gains you an ally. That is why scum buddy people.

Okay. So this post makes it sound like i dont think former is scum, and rather that i just want his lynch to be done with.
This would be a reasonable thought process, EXCEPT i say in the end that im still pretty sure on former. So i still believe former is scum.
And for the rest of the post, see below

My overall point is that at the time of the comments, you turned Formerfish into a viable wagon rather than NSG who you also apparently scumread. I have a problem with this because it looks like scum fencesitting on actually voting their partner. They want the town credit of calling out a member of the scumteam, but they don't actually want their teammate to die. Does that not make sense?

You have been repeating that the reason for preferring Formerfish over NSG is because the Formerfish lynch gives better information. But that completely ignores the fact that the NSG wagon gave tons of information with how people reacted to her wagon.

What would information would a Formerfish flip have given at that point of the game?

For clarification: I'm not a perfect player. But i know my strengths and weaknesses, and my number one weakness is not following voting procedure or vote counts. At the point i made the i was suspicious of former post, or the voting former post i hadnt checked the VCs once. My only reason for being there is to get my voice out since my vote can be placed on and off easily, its not something that weighs too heavily for me.
Again, my number 1 lynch to go is former. I only hammered nsg because there was no way former was dying at that point. If there was a sliver of possibility that former could be lynched even if nsg was on l-1, i would be on his case.
FORMER
WAS
MY
SCUMREAD.
And im kind of tired of responding to your shit arguments saying im scum for pushing a scummy player over someone whos afk.

I think that scum disproportionately get away with what NSG did in that case. They rest on their laurels and are never really challenged because "oh, they are an amazing player." Plus, it looked like an easy way for you to rectify your suspicions come later in the game.

"Oh I am only voting NSG because she is not efforting" is just as weak as "I'm not voting NSG because her flip will give us less information"

Look at from this perspective

If Formerfish is town, scum get 2 nightkills and a town lynch out of NSG living to day 2. POSSIBLY MORE. Even if NSG immediately gets lynched Day 2, scum have now gotten an extra 2 town deaths from her lynch. That is why I think the NSG wagon reactions are key in this game. The benefit of having a mafia going down Day 2 as opposed to Day 1, even if that Mafia is the de facto lynch, is literally 2x more useful.

Lets analyze the situation where i did this:
Four other people already voted for BB: We were trying to lynch him with CFD. Yes, he wasnt my favourite suspect to vote but it was something. I admit i couldve done better and went for nsg but felt lazy. You do have a point there.
However this isnt a preservation vote. If this was, i wouldnt have hammered nsg no matter what. Many people barely survived a l-1 vote that day, why couldnt nsg?

It just does not make sense to me that you list 4 people that you want to lynch, BBmolla is NOT one of those 4 people, NSG IS one of those 4 people, the BBmolla wagon flares up and you vote it, then the NSG wagon flares up and you DON'T want to vote it.

I get your point, but disagree with it, that the NSG wagon is low information compared to Formerfish. But that means that BBmolla's wagon has to be more information than NSG's wagon. Which I don't think is true because it literally sprang up within 5 hours whereas NSG's wagon had been gaining momentum over the course of DAYS.

The reason the vote is preservationist is because the deadline was fast approaching. When deadline looms large over, people are willing to hammer just to make sure there is a lynch. Additionally, I think NOT being a scum lynch looks worse than being on a scum lynch, so scum would want to be on there no matter what.

It makes sense from a town player tired of everyone ATEing out of their lynches so we're left with undesirable lynches, so i said fuck it. BB had the same scum equity as nsg did at that point, why not just hop in if ffs going to break the furniture when i push him.
Also, scum!dong isnt this bold.

If that is the case, then why not complain about BBmolla's wagon being a bad compromise?

Whats your point

This goes back to the shading comment. If you want me to use a buzzword to describe what I think is happening here, it is a chainsaw defense. You attack player x who is attacking player y. In doing so, you make player y look better by reducing the credibility of player x.

Look numbnut
I wanted to lynch former
so lynching nsg is the worst compromise for me here because if shes town we're fucked to a tee, even if she is scum we're fucked because we're back to square one while the chances of hitting scum are dwindled and we'll shoot ourselves in the foot for the next coming days.
The compromise for me is we lynch former today, and nsg TOMORROW. When we have adequate posts to compare her to. If she doesnt, she dies anyway. If she does, great, we have a basis to read her on. EVEN BETTER.
Certainly better than fucking lolwagoning her day 1 and then mislynching 2 people, getting pocketed by both scum and having all your reads be incorrect, i think.

I fundamentally disagree with this. NSG had been openly flaunting she was not going to give effort in this game. In addition, if she is scum, we need to land just one more lynch to win the game plus we would have a lot of associatives to go off because White Flag as a game type dissuades scum from wanting to bus, let alone bus on Day 1.

Dong, other than responding to the case, is there anything you want me to address?

I would like to talk to you about auro, unlike you said i didnt just say my piece and leave, i have been trying to push it. What do you think about it?

I think Auro has decent scum equity in this game. Auro has been very stark in his opinions in a way that makes me think he is trying to hide who is defending. At the moment, I cannot tell if he is trying to hide his defense of you with his defense of Dann, or vice versa.

What do you make of the fact that he is now apparently saying it is better to lynch himself over you or Dann? Auro!Town would know from his perspective that the only person who is confirmed town is himself and his lynch automatically puts us into LyLo.

I'm begging you BB just vote me please god

On the same topic, why do you want to die so badly?

[gobbledygook]

Imagine a world where both gobbles and Dong are town. Either lynch is great for scum, particularly Dong as gobbles gets lynched at lylo. If scum do not vote Dong then either gobbles gets lynched and Dong dies at lylo or onge gets enough votes that anyone on the Dong wagon becomes lynchable in lylo. It's a pretty sweet place to be.

If this is the world we live in, I am going to scream.

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky how does that make FF and I a team?

[gobbledygook]

Whatever. I wash my hands of this loss. Lead on the only scum lynch Day 1, and then get mislynched for it. Super cool.

[gobbledygook]

This game was literally aids.

[gobbledygook]

From start to finish.

[gobbledygook]

No.

[gobbledygook]

The game is finished for me, as I am now dead.

[gobbledygook]

Cheeky/Auro scumream is my last guess

[gobbledygook]

I literally don’t know anymore dude and I really can’t be arsed, mainly out of spite.

[gobbledygook]

Nah, not dealing with you, scum. Turbo lynch you tomorrow.

[gobbledygook]

I literally cannot see a world where Bb is scum.

[gobbledygook]

Wait. Was I even hammered.

[gobbledygook]

Vote: Auro

Purge this.

[gobbledygook]

Wow that text was labeled as huge and it isn’t even that big anymore

[gobbledygook]

I’m tired. I was literally writing a big cluck you post. Auro has 1000 posts jfc I can’t crtl f on my phone. I’m going to bed

[gobbledygook]

No I realized when you said people don’t pay attention Auro

[gobbledygook]

Lulz @ Gobbles' walls at Dong and then saying "Cheeky+Auro" after fakehammer.

Yeah because i felt like it came from nowhere when we had been asking for time to process. You as scum has been a strong possibility this entire day. Stop trying to misrep the vote and my finished comment

[gobbledygook]

Great job, Gobble and FF - leaving me alive with my Gob tunnel paid off brilliantly. Gave me a SUPER hard time! Strategic lurking while town was self-destructing was also a good idea.

It was a good macro idea but the micro of it was misery for me. About the lurking, I really only intended to lurk 2-3 days, but then real life got super busy (I go to school and was also hired part time to help with rigging for the Super Bowl), so the lurking turned into like almost two weeks... which was so bad. Cheeky, I am sorry for making you feel bad! I have a comment in the scum PT about that. My outrage was not real, fwiw.

Auro and Cheeky get joint town mvp from me!!

[gobbledygook]

That’s going to happen in most cases. No one is capable of trust anymore.

Like Auro, I am confused by NSG’s choice of play in this game. I would like an explanation for it if she’s still around!

[gobbledygook]

Join game 2 of Jingle’s large theme! It has an interesting conceit!