Titus v. Alisae (endgame)

[Krazy]

Hectic scum requires multitasking right?

-S

[Krazy]

idk I was curious whether Boon was serious about Krazy v Boon

Also I think most of this list is already in it but anyone who isn't yet is welcome to the cow level - https://discord.gg/FsyjUs

[Krazy]

This was almost a perfect sweep! Good game everyone.

Me, Ank, and Titus did a good job of forcing town to compromise on scum almost every day despite never agreeing on a solve or every read, even if sometimes we frustrated each other. I think three strong-willed players with strong reads can do a lot, especially since I had Watson nudging me to compromise more.

Ali did a good job on undoing the free townread I gave chemist day 1 off their interactions but unfortunately it cost them a lot of issues with chemist/RR later.

Overall this was a pretty clean game, I think I only lost my temper once and that was lowkey related to pain from my arms (sorry GG)

[Krazy]

I mean I think he was hoping for fake clears from your role

[Krazy]

For masochists:
Hover your cursor to any message and then click JUMP which will appear on the right of that box. This will pull you to the top!
click in the search box.
choose "in: channel" from the resulting drop-down.
select the channel in question from the next drop-down; should be the first one listed.
then select "Oldest"

[Krazy]

Hey from the perspective of pure mechanical theory, should scum UBs inherit scum neighborhoods?

[Krazy]

I just said hello...

[Krazy]

Spoiler:

b17m4p02/10/2020
Krazy is kind of an ass
somewhat

AaronFrost02/10/2020
He seems to townread me though

b17m4p02/10/2020
ngl
he's just scum reading everyone who scumreads him

Alisae 02/10/2020
he's the most threatening townie atm
since he's trying to do something
thats better then most townies

b17m4p02/10/2020
that's kind of sad
the bar is that low

The power of graduating from the school of Nancy Drew 39 scumhunting!

Alisae 02/11/2020
the only threat atm is Krazy

damn probably the nicest thing anyone has said about me

Spoiler:

b17m4p02/15/2020
only Sherlock
Krazy is actually roleplaying the Sherlock sona really well

Bitty you're so mean sometimes and so nice others

[Krazy]

Drixx02/18/2020
we need to carry SEVEN day phases consecutive
and Titus can't be silenced

I actually sympathize with this

In Ali v. Pine it was very hard to keep it together for so long; it's very easy to start running out of steam as scum. I had the bus on LLD day 1, I won the 1v1 with mastina, but after that I was pretty wiped out. It starts to feel really hard to think about how to re-evaluate your reads even though you recognize your distancing/progression no longer works for a winning endgame.

I think the setup of treestump wars is really dynamic which is why they've been popular lately but they are definitely draining for scum having a confirmed town voice that can't be silenced or discredited

Drixx02/18/2020
like ... the time sink is huge

I sympathize with this too, I felt this very much in another game recently as well, although I think that this mindset is one of the reasons that no one wants to play scum, is that it doesn't feel as satisfying deceiving people vs. solving people?

**

In terms of Moriarty games, there is a point as well that slots like Amrun being mechanically powerful but also fit into the "hint" design system about who can be scum can be problematic for scum, since scum want to kill power roles early but Amrun also makes Cerb's slot weaker as a result (although that's partly due to Cerb/Drixx trueclaiming the ascetic)

**

Ali I wish you didn't neg your team so much in thread I think they clearly put a lot of work into this game

[Krazy]

Game with three treestumps, one of which is a self-aligned survivor!

Wait.......

[Krazy]

So, setup complaint: the vanila cop/rolecop effects were a bit much, as all vts were logically clears. Like, the mechanically probtown pool was able to grow faster than it probably should have been able to? Granted, there was the chance of getting fake cleared by espe or one of the watcher shots late game, but idk, just seemed like the pool of possible mislynches due to mechanics was too small since D2, in light of a game with 2 masons and a stump controlled vig. *shrug*

the vanillas only became ICs this game because the three scum lynches came so fast that there emerged a mech confirmation

I don't think that's something that's easily balanced around, although this did happen to also end up being a 'thing' in the previous Moriarty game so it's something I'd watch for in designs in the future. It's cool being an IC'd vanilla town but I can see that being a frustrating thing to play around as scum in future games

[Krazy]

Oh, I played you guys. As soon as I did it, I messaged mods and said “look how easy it is to get wagons to stop building on me” because every time I did it, Ankamius unvoted.

You played me by doing things that made me want to scumread you

[Krazy]

Maki and Kaito, Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Alien, Neighbouriser), lynched day one.
Bitmap, Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Alien, Neighbouriser), lynched day two.
Reasonably Rational (hydra of Cerberus v666 and Drixx), Mafia 1-Shot Bulletproof Ascetic Universal Backup turned Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Alien, Neighbouriser), lynched day six.
AaronFrost, Mafia Ninja, lynched day four.

Pine, Town Ascetic Enabler Ninja Vanilla Cop, survived.
Hectic, Town Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Tracker, Neighbouriser), survived.
Chemist1422, Town Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Voyeur, Neighbouriser), lynched day three.
Espeonage, Town Ascetic Compulsive Disloyal Friendly Neighbor, survived.
Ankamius, Town Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Watcher, Neighbouriser), survived.
Spiffeh, Town Mason, killed night one.
gobbledygook, Town Mason, killed night five.
Amrun, Town Ascetic Compulsive Complex Friendly Neighbour, killed night three.
TrueSoulEnergy, Town Vengeful, lynched day five.

insomnia rep. Frozen Angel, Vanilla Townie, killed night two.
Flavor Leaf, Vanilla Townie, survived.
OkaPoka, Vanilla Townie, survived.
Sherlock and Watson (hydra of PenguinPower & Krazy), Vanilla Townie, survived.

OTHER SETUP FACTORS
Novice Strongman vig from town stump
Scum stump knows about town's disloyal friendly neighbor

This doesn't look unplayable since scum have a lot of tricks and the ninja.

4 vts is a good base

2 mech town (masons) confirmed to the town stump is strong, but no protectives and they were hunted pretty effectively by Alisae

The vengeful due to normal rules would be IC'd by a rolecop, of which the town had three shots
Amrun has a high chance of landing a FN send on town early if scum are not using the jails early

So from design POV 4 slots are pretty strongly town

Partly here town did misplay a bit (no rolecops on TSE)
Also scum got very unlucky with some night actions (neither friendly neighbor ever claimed visits to scum)

Town's watcher and tracker in theory can maybe confirm? a town action but 'can't' catch the scum kill due to ninja + scum UB

So main problems for scum here were:
-Espeonage seemed very town off dayplay early game, so after Amrun died the ascetic claim became more of an issue for RR
-The heavy swing against scum early game ended up surprisingly turning rolecop/vanilla cop actions into stronger invests than they were designed as

So I think the comment about setup is more to watch for 'snowball' effects. The setup isn't imbalanced on paper; it's very consistent with the design feel "Moriarty" has been going for. That feel works, which is one reason I think there was more expectation that the scum ascetic shouldn't claim since the "hints" power of the design is so strong.

Ultimately there's no way to argue scum didn't have tools for counter-play. Most of town's strongest power was negated (watcher, tracker, disloyal FN) by the setup, but the snowball effect of the lynches + vanilla cop was stronger than expected. But this is something that can happen in any large theme game and it's very hard to anticipate.

Pine's role is interesting as a kind of "rolecop miller" but he played it very much like miller and I think one issue is that lately towns tend to treat millers like ICs.

Ultimately that we ended up lynching the vengeful despite having 3 rolecops is... interesting from a mechanical POV. Strictly speaking TSE's lynch was the one that *should* have been avoidable this game but town ended up not playing it that way and instead of being 'punished' for it was ironically rewarded since the rolecop on Oka actually worked to IC him due to snowball effect.

For the record, even if this is a 'hard' game for scum, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as Jazz Mafia was, by comparison. Scum had significantly more power and counterplay here vs. what feels like softly 'less' town power maybe? That's my immediate guttake anyway

[Krazy]

Actually I guess there's the question of the power of the three rolecops/vanilla cop on Aaron when Aaron is probably 'inclined' to claim Vanilla to fit into the VT pool but that's something that can come down to order in massclaim and other soft factors, not sure if "town ninja" is a claim that doesn't get lynched here so he probably can't claim it directly

[Krazy]

Just a note: it's the *number* of effects that feels off. Just the vanilla cop, or the complex friendly neighbor, would work, but the pair feels oppressive.

Also, it wasn't our actions that made it probable that scum had no goons; it was the fact that scum got to choose their roles.

Our action made it *certain* that the last scum was not VT, but there was a strong pull towards assuming vanilla=town from D2.

-Cerb

If disliking the stump's picks for scum roles creates a bad gamefeel for scum that might be a thought that maybe scum stump should not be designing scum rolecards in future stump v stump games.

I think that's a valid thought

[Krazy]

Just think Boon, it's a game where we both fakeclaimed masons with the same scum! I feel like we've really turned a new leaf here

[Krazy]

She did pick us, the dice simply disagreed