TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[Gammagooey]

My team thinks it’s DEB

But we don’t really care about winning so.

What u guys want to do?

but i care about winning fire

can you care for meeee?

I want everyone to come play the game including you, so why do you/your team think it's DEB? (aside from him being a lurksack all game)

[Gammagooey]

My team says flavor and DEB interactions yesterday were extremely fake

I mean it's not good certainly

And the jump from town-reading FL n2 enough to make him loved to HAHA I KNEW HE WAS SCUM THE WHOLE TIME is bad but I wouldn't be that surprised if it's ego-driven town bad over scum bad

Buut I just think the scumteam that makes the most sense is dave/DEB already so I feel biased on that, I do want to see his team's VCA and whether he is capable of looking town from analysis on that tho

[Gammagooey]

if i wanted to listen to RC being arrogant I wouldn't have blacklisted him

if your team wants to give more reasons for DEB-scum that aren't 'because I'm good at mafia and you should listen to me' I'll be here tho

[Gammagooey]

My post was not pointing at anyone specific.
I don't remember seeing any overt support on trying to play it quiet.

How many shots do we have at getting this right?
I'm down for any of DEB, FB, Panth.

You're wondering about what I was thinking yesterday, I saw FB's vote on me as a naked chainsaw.

so then why vote him over the scum more likely to be lynched?

and I did specifically mention that keeping the night 3 failed action was fine with me after thinking about it, but you didn't really answer the question I asked - what were you hoping for as a result of saying 'hypothetically what if I used the watcher shot', especially when your previous stance was "I'm absolutely not going to reveal anything"?

I could have anywhere between 1 and 3 actions left, and I'm absolutely not going to reveal anything.

I don't particularly care about the failed/missed action on night 3 after thinking about it so if you want to keep that a secret you're welcome to imo

I also think it's pretty reasonable for scum to no-kill last night assuming you're town, but I would personally your action last night to be outed so we have a better idea of your thought process and what you thought scum were likely to do last night so that people can get a better read on your alignment. If you want to fight about it being the right play then fight about it and I can maybe be convinced but considering that you contributed basically nothing in terms of reads yesterday I feel like it's fair.

However, you ABSOLUTELY need to give reads and actually try to get scum lynched today. Dayplay is more important than nightplay in general, today as the first day with a flipped scum especially, and if you try to be cheeky with 'oh well not playing the game will optimize my night action' again I will 100% try to get you lynched for it.

[Gammagooey]

just so ya'll know where my head's at

I'm most suspicious of dave atm, but I'm not going to vote him or do a case on anyone until everyone gets into the thread at least once. I'll also prob re-read a bit but that might not happen until Wednesday night or so.

Like I said before, I think what happens today will likely decide the game, so if you have any read you'd be willing to stake the game on, get in here and fight for it and do your best to convince other people of why. My personal 'I will bet the game on this' read is Ank-town, and I'll go into that a little bit Wednesday or whenever I get into re-reading.

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: gammagoey

FL argument saying conftown makes this deepwolf until I’m convinced otherwise.

obv we have a lot of time until deadline so don't feel obliged to do it tonight

but if you're town it's probably a lot more helpful to actually iso me instead of asking other people to convince you that I'm not scum and use what's in it to either convince people that I'm scum or reconsider your read based on what you find in it

I've got the shortest iso of living players who aren't panth & DEB and I think my content/noise ratio is better than 95% of mafiascum so I don't feel like it's incredibly difficult to do.

[Gammagooey]

@gooey: Would it still be anti-town to reveal your hood's LMS now?

It's probably fine? It's lategame enough that I don't expect it to do anything, the only exception might be if we lynch DEB literally today

if you and ank want to know what it is I'm fine sharing it

[Gammagooey]

I'm probably going to wait for ank to come by and say she wants it too then if ya don't mind (or I guess late tomorrow if she's busy and doesn't come by before then)

[Gammagooey]

Our LMS is a 2-Shot Bulletproof.

Yep

It's not exactly useful when it's outed and it made sense as an ability the survivor would actually want

I think it’s weird that gamma has been salty with my inactivity in our pt the whole game, then once I’m actually energized because we lynched FL as scum which is honestly like the sweetest feeling, he ignores me smdh. Then in response to me calling him out on it he throws a bit of shade.

I don't give a shit about your private topic inactivity, I want you to post in the actual real thread that we're posting in now so EVERYONE can read you (like say with your reads and the Titus VCA you said she wanted to talk about after a scum flip happened)

[Gammagooey]

The way that people read me this game has messed me up completely. General rules of how towns work are getting completely ignored.
The way that people focus on themselves to the exclusion of making progress outside the 1v1's has messed me up too.

As far as I can tell the 'General rules' you're talking about are literally just people suspecting you even though you have a power role. Can you say that you think you'd be playing substantially differently than you have been if you had started the game as a scum tracker or scum watcher and why? Those are pretty normal things to exist.

Who's focusing on themselves specifically? Flavor leaf was certainly, but is there anyone else? B/c frankly it feels like you've spent all game giving excuses for your poor play rather than doing your best to fix it.

[Gammagooey]

^messed up the quote above

The way that people read me this game has messed me up completely. General rules of how towns work are getting completely ignored.
The way that people focus on themselves to the exclusion of making progress outside the 1v1's has messed me up too.

As far as I can tell the 'General rules' you're talking about are literally just people suspecting you even though you have a power role. Can you say that you think you'd be playing substantially differently than you have been if you had started the game as a scum tracker or scum watcher and why? Those are pretty normal things to exist.

Who's focusing on themselves specifically? Flavor leaf was certainly, but is there anyone else? B/c frankly it feels like you've spent all game giving excuses for your poor play rather than doing your best to fix it.

[Gammagooey]

meh

I'd still rather see more from panth & DEB before lynching

it'd also be nice if dave could stop just talking past me and engage me about why he's thought what he has at various points in the game but if all of ya'll voting DEB+one more think that DEB is the most likely scum out of anyone in the game then I guess it's fine

[Gammagooey]

meh

I'd still rather see more from panth & DEB before lynching

it'd also be nice if dave could stop just talking past me and engage me about why he's thought what he has at various points in the game but if all of ya'll voting DEB+one more think that DEB is the most likely scum out of anyone in the game then I guess it's fine

I'm willing to wait until Gamma is ready

I appreciate you kuribo

DEB said he was energized by the FL lynch, let's give him one day to actually give any last thoughts that he has or that his team wants to pass along (and I won't be a cheeky fuck and steal your hammer)

Frankly I'm not really expecting anything more than him giving more details on scumreading me regardless of his alignment but hey maybe he can actually put effort into it and we can see what that's like coming from DEB

[Gammagooey]

mmm

tasty murder clocks

I do want to know what Dave is trying to accomplish calling DEB scum and Gamma scum with him though

I just want him to actually be telling his reads on people based on what they've done in-game instead of saying shit like one of me/DEB are scum for setup symmetry and I'm scum for part of FL's scum spam at the end of yesterday

[Gammagooey]

yeah DEB hammer is all yours

maybe I'll be wrong about there being 4 mafia and we'll just win, that'd be nice

[Gammagooey]

Lol fuck you kuribo, I might be loved.
Also, use vote tags you nerd.
Eh, someone will probably just hammer me anyway.
I don’t think there is anything I could have said to change this outcome.
Whatever, I’m over it. Good luck people.

Until the mod gets here or the actual hammer happens:

One of the first things I asked in our PT was whether we could target someone in our group

you a dead deb

and if you're town i'm very very disappointed in you

[Gammagooey]

I am going to sleep now. Please don't vote anyone until I come back and give you my solve (with a case), but please feel free to discuss and FoS eachother all you want. If you feel the urge to vote, use the HURT: tags instead. Thank you.

I want blood at this point but I would also like to respect your desires so fine

HURT: dave

I will say words tomorrow

[Gammagooey]

This comes tonight actually

but actual words come tomorrow

b/c I think this looks very bad on dave's part and I dislike it very much

this is lots of words and context and literally a half page of posts minus one post of EP's that was breaking the spoiler tag

Spoiler: like a half page of posts when the FL wagon started

There is nothing to sort -- I'm unquestionably town.
I mean it exactly that way. Nothing confirmed here, not especially obvious even. But still, logically it is not something that can be questioned.
I would have expected you to treat the remaining member of my hood the same.
I'm the closest thing this game has to being a cop.
Like just, really? The role is confirmed, and you just don't fuck with the role ever.

A50 / Ank / vote remove->vig
It makes mechanical sense for scum to be in this group.
I successfully scumread A50 in a game where we were scum together Gotta be honest, I don't remember what I'm thinking this game.
Ank's posting, especially yesterday's, is so full of OMGUS and drama that I'd be hard pressed to tell what the real reads are.
I have much work to do, to figure out these two.

EP / FL doc->lightning
If there were scum in this group it would be weird. If a save goes awry that would tell the town in the hood that their
neighbor is scum. Furthermore scum can't really activate a LMS lightning rod without killing themselves, and lack of activating
would also be a red flag.
On top of that, I independently town read both FL and EP.

FB (not in a group)
Scum removing anyone from the Commuter / venge hood is a dice roll. It activates the venge and prevents the commute from being used as a 2nd doc.
It's entirely possible that scum wanted the hood gone early when the probability of getting 2 town is higher.
Frankly, we got lucky with nomnom's venge choice. I could see that going a lot of different directions.
FB is independently scummy to me, regardless of the hood roles.

Kuribo / Panthaleon RB
We already got one scum from this hood. Someone made a big point about the chances of 2 scum, early in the game. I don't remember
if that was arguing in favor of the possibility of 2 scum or if it was arguing against that.
I think Kuribo is genuine and is a strong TR for me.
Panthaleon has been extremely sketchy to me. I don't remember a single concrete read coming from this direction

DEB / Gammagooey -- CEO's, weird stuff??
One of the CEO's flipped 3p. Symmetry begs for there to be scum in this group.
I have made no secret of my scumread on DEB.
Gammagooey is one of my weakest TR, partly because DEB being useless and partly because Gamma just feels off.
Hypothetically if I didn't commute then this would tip the scales toward DEB scum, almost regardless of everything else.

Hey EP, can you paraphrase the post with FL asking for Maria's vote on Ank in your QT for me? (ask the mod before posting it if you're worried about it being too close to exact or anything like that)

Given that Maria flipped scum I think it's worth looking into a little more

I said I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

This is correct.

I interpreted this as meaning that FL's post in the hood was:

I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Followed by a separate post saying

Not Panth or FB.

I said that I think FL just put a comma instead of 'or' in the first post, and it's

probably

not a slip.
If we got to a point that there had to be scum in the EP/FL hood this would definitely point to FL. But I think it does not point to FL right now because I strongly doubt there is scum in that hood at all.

You're welcome to interpret it differently.

Hey EP, can you paraphrase the post with FL asking for Maria's vote on Ank in your QT for me? (ask the mod before posting it if you're worried about it being too close to exact or anything like that)

Given that Maria flipped scum I think it's worth looking into a little more

For sure. I bolded it in FL's recap:

I said

I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria.

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

The first sentence is the one I was worried about. I added a period to it in the quoted 5961 for greater accuracy.

For added context, MariaR looked like she was positioning to move off of Ank at the time. That's why the timing is so weird.

Very interested in discussion relating to 6780.
Subtle reminder that it's possible to make strong points with few posts...

I said I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Not Panth or FB.

2 separate posts. I didn’t look at it like that, but I guess I see why he’d call it out like that.

This is correct.

I interpreted this as meaning that FL's post in the hood was:

I think we need your vote on Ank, Maria

Followed by a separate post saying

Not Panth or FB.

I said that I think FL just put a comma instead of 'or' in the first post, and it's

probably

not a slip.
If we got to a point that there had to be scum in the EP/FL hood this would definitely point to FL. But I think it does not point to FL right now because I strongly doubt there is scum in that hood at all.

You're welcome to interpret it differently.

I went through all of his posts in my hood. Almost all of them used either a / or proper comma use to distinguish between people. Mind you, most of the game has been just him and me, so he hasn't had to direct a comment at someone in a long time. When Elements was alive, he made a post directing separate points at Elements and me. In that post, he ended the respective sentence with ", Elements." And ", EP."

There was one example of FL saying X, Y, Z with no proper punctuation. This adds some support to his claim that he intended to put panth in the list of Ank, Maria, panth, but then changed it after.

Add in the fact that (1) gobble is scumreading FL, (2) the doctors are still somehow alive, despite being the optimal targets, and (3) the strange MariaR pivot onto FL mentioned in the spoilers posts above.

See below - several bolded examples of FL saying XYZ, name....

and these are just the first two pages of his ISO.

He does it more than or equal to @name to address people. He almost always uses name/name/name for listing names. He very rarely used name, name, name.

This game also started yesterday, Dave

. Pushing me for not coming out of the gate blazing...

Would you like me to come out blazing?

I’m not trying to mislynch Sod Volpe, though, Nomnom

.

viewtopic.php?f=100&t=60967

Found it, GIF.

It was 2015, holy shit

By FL, om, and now even MariaR.
Hers was the most surprising because she knows how much of a lazy fuck I am to make a post like that.

This isn't even close to true. The one game I've seen from you (the one I modded) you tryharded in. Sure, I know you're personally lazy but I didn't know how that translates. I think you're just getting annoyed because you're not getting the easy townreads that you expected to get.

I fight with RC, because I don’t let him town coast.

And I kill off NSG when she’s my traitor partner.

Actually, I think most of the time I play with NSG, I end up killing her regardless of my alignment.

Also, Maria, are you Elena?

Speak your truth, Dave,

don’t see it as bragging, it’s a part of you. It is you.

GIF’s never getting night killed, Ank.

He controls a commuter neighborhood with RC/NSG clout.

Also I think that style of scumplay is actually kind of disproportionately effective because people just haven't learned how to counter it

People just don’t move past the mechanical way of playing Mafia and don’t see it like a spectrum. :shrug:

The majority of my scum games there is generally zero actual reason for me to ever be Mafia, even when I am, and mechanical by the book players physically can’t understand why I win the games I do.

I feel like I probably have one of the, if not the, highest scum win rate from players who have had more than 7 scum games on site.

Not using mechanical play, and playing socially is a counter, kind of, but then you gotta play the game. I’m all about scum and town alike making the moves.

I have an extremely flashy vanilla scum play, kind of like the BooneyToonz games in general.

I am by the book, 100%. It’s just not the book the so called “elite” players are reading, because I find it completely outdated.

I’m gonna mainstream Mafia, guys.

Bet.

You’re my new apprentice, Chennisden.

Welcome to the Boon Babes.

Fark was the best NK for FL/nomnom and a below average NK to a team outiside of nomnom/FL that should be more worried about Ank the paragon reaching the conclusion that it's a lot of TvTs.

Comment on this, Ankamius

, please.

Because we talked earlier about something similar.

[/quote]

Very interested in discussion relating to 6780.
Subtle reminder that it's possible to make strong points with few posts...

What sort of discussion are you looking for regarding 6780? I didn't see any new material + most of your points are effectively, "it's a dice roll" or "we'll have to wait to see."

Geez! I said -in my hood- that I won't be pushing FL because it's harder to lynch him and the game would turn toxic if he was seriously pushed. That is why I wanted to push DEB over FL today although I am actually more confident FL is Scum.

I am now being forced to take a solid stance and out that if I ever got the Vig shot I was going to shoot FL myself. That's how confident I am he is Scum.

One of the main reasons I already outed: He is still alive. More: He is in the Doctors hood which had already lost a member on D1, and any Scum worth 2 grains of salt would want to remove that ASAP, and with the Commuters gone that's

the one

NK option Scum have if FL/EP were both Town.

Then there is the weird FoS by FL on Maria. He even voted her at one point but there was no real danger for the wagon to grow on her and he never once did push her for real.

Both FL & Maria were protecting DEB as if he was their only child. Yet again, Maria outright TR'd DEB while FL used his elusive ways of distraction, pretending to go along with a SR and magically finding a way to defuse the wagon and/or redirect discussion. Even when he did vote DEB he did that.

FL was so worried nom would venge him. He only voted her when she declared she didn't intend to take him out. It was like he didn't expect her to aim for Maria. Even if she decided to venge DEB it would have still netted Scum a Town kill (in nom) which was much better than lynching DEB outright.

FK's opening of the day was so scummy (that IS what triggered my slow clapping post). It's as if I had seen this movie before. I had foreseen everything he said today, including his indirect defence of DEB (reread his posts of today).

For those unfamiliar with FL's Scum play (and even for those who know him but may have overlooked some details) this looks very much like him in New Beginnings (Rick Dalton is FL).

His play around Maria is similar to his play around both me and ben in Mini Normal 2102 (Morality/Pretentious are both FL)

Also this game he was Scum with me (and dave) and I thought dave may want to take another look on any (or all) of them to remind him of Scum!FL's play and tactics.

Maria gave you the solve "in your face" after she got venged, stating we should lynch FL/DEB. Of course, almost every Town player will think it's WIFOM and reverse psychology dictates you get a little bit of your subconsciousness AGAINST the lynch of either of them because of it, which was EXACTLY the purpose of that post. (Why would SCUM who HAVE BEEN VENGED and know they're flipping soon ever post THAT?)

FL's "flip flopping" on me is NOT GENUINE. It's an attempt to replicate his TOWN play around me. However, he never ONCE tried to approach me in a way that looked like he's trying to sort me for real. Hell, he opened today stating I was a SR for him, then when I posted he immediately responded in a way that shows he's not convinced of that declared SR on me.

A50, ugh.

That’s the scummiest post I’ve ever seen, now’s not the time. I’m already waffling on your pancakes

Is this how you (dear reader) would responding to someone you had just stated as one if only 3 slots in your solve?

Panth, Dave, A50 is where I’m at.

There's so much more I could say about why this is SCUM!FLAVOR LEAF, but it would require me to go dig his ISO for more details.

Oh, and his positioning on the Creature wagon too. NOT the fact he voted Creature (although that come into play shortly) but the timing and him being the L-1 (separated by 3 others from Maria on the wagon).

As for the vote itself, you gotta ask yourself why Creature but not DEB? What has DEV done that is so mych different than Creature/Volxen? And to note Volxen/Creature WAS NOT A TOWN SLOT! I mean, if it was then MAYBE I would have bought the reluctance, but the fact it flipped NON-TOWN makes me wonder why he is still actively protecting DEB (and why Maria also did! Wait.. why SCUM!Maria (in case you forgot already) was so against a DEB lynch).

@FL: You had better lynch or NK me. Ank is untouchable for you as long as I'm alive, not because you can't push her, but because if I get my hands on that Vig shot you're dead, and that's a promise.

Nice talk, means nothing while your vote is in the wrong place.

@nom if you think Ank and FB are scum, you should vote Ank today. We can free up A50 to vig, which forces scum to pick between dave, the doctors, and A50.

@EP - this was I think right before you posted about FL's potential slip post - were you talking with FL about voting elsewhere in the group topic or earlier that real life day that you remember? I'm leaning towards it making more sense that Maria was considering voting FL and pushing it (as she had indicated she might in her in-thread posts around then) and FL-scum wanting her to stay on Ank for now, but you're the one with the actual context to go along with it - you seemed pretty focused on Ank atm and I don't see why FL asks you to be on one of Ank/Maria there when you're already on them unless there is some indication of indecision or consideration of changing your vote there that FL would have seen.

I know I'm going to feel like Sisyphus here, but the correct play is to lynch FL. I don't care if EP uses his Lightning Rod or not afterwards (would prefer him not to, but it's his call).

VOTE: FL

P-edit: I am furious at you too, dave. In fact..

VOTE: dave

You are still like 90% Town in my eyes, but hell if I care. You want to play your way? Fine. I'll throw and blame it on you.

VOTE: FL

^^ Actual thought process in real time.

Very interested in discussion relating to 6780.
Subtle reminder that it's possible to make strong points with few posts...

What sort of discussion are you looking for regarding 6780? I didn't see any new material + most of your points are effectively, "it's a dice roll" or "we'll have to wait to see."

I see it as mostly new material.
Maybe 90% of the thread has been a never ending series of 1v1 with practically no wholistic view imo.
Only one of the pairs is a dice roll, the A50/ank where any of the 3 likely outcomes is possible and I haven’t been able to dig deep enough. A50’s most recent leans strong town so I’m almost down to ank or nobody in that group.

I'm going to break one of my favorite personal guidelines here. ^**

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Gammagooey]

I still think it's dave based on his reaction to the push on FL feeling terrible to me

His first two posts after I bugged EP to paraphrase it again were him saying it's not a scumslip and trying to direct the conversation away from it literally minutes afterwards
viewtopic.php?p=11606549#p11606549

then after Almost goes ham on FL he makes a deal out of voting FL despite it breaking his favorite personal guidelines

and after I ask him what changed from his town read on FL before he posted this

You mentioned you townread FL independent of his role before Almost and my (and EP's) posts about FL

Can you give a brief post on why you did and which posts since then changed your mind?

Why the TR? I'm susceptible to a reasonableness and activity bias. In the absence of things that trigger me, I tend to townread people who seem to be actively sorting and seem to be reasonable. FL's specific behavior toward me this game has fluctuated between near-buddying and scumreads in a way that felt like natural progression. Basically the good put him above the line and there wasn't anything noticeable to pull him back below.

What changed? I tend to dismiss "slips" as evidence because (1) I have a non-scientific feeling that they are pointed out by scum more often than town and (2) even when town point them out they tend to be much ado over nothing. One solitary ", Maria" felt too nit picky to me. A pattern of behavior is something else entirely. Especially if it matches up temporally with in-game events in a suspicious way.

which to me feels like justifying what he now knows is a wrong read on FL, but then he goes on to vote Firebringer over FL later that day

[Gammagooey]

Like I wouldn't be horrifically shocked if it was panth because he seemed like he basically disappeared for the lynches on FL & DEB

But dave's play feels like actively directing away from FL until Almost's posting makes it clear that FL is the probable lynch of the day and then trying to make himself look better with justifying his read instead of explaining it - maybe his #6799 is a difference in playstyles between us but I was really expecting more of 'this is why FL could be town imo' from dave-town instead of 'this is why I was wrong about FL being town', and that being followed with voting not-FL later in the day just feels so damn weird to me.

[Gammagooey]

@gooey:

1- Why would Maria push dave early into the game, yet defend DEB?
2- I myself had FL as a top TR up until Maria was venged and flipped. I only realized how mistaking I was during the night after.
3- As I said, we do have 2 mislynches at hand, so we can lynch dave tomorrow if the game isn't over with panth's lynch today.

Amrun noted Maria hard defended Vex too )she didn't provide quotes and I'm not going to re-ISO Maria at this point)

Now check the readlist is #2241 and tell me if that fits with dave being scum with FL/Maria/DEB

The main thing is that Maria pushed on all of her other scumbuddies too at one point or another, including DEB - she just didn't follow through with DEB after he actually become a sizable wagon. dave I don't think ever became a sizable wagon, and she seemed pretty willing to poke at him but not hardpush him.

Dave's readslist in #2241 waffles on all three of Maria/FL/DEB, I can see it being scum who doesn't want to take a strong stand on their partners early when everyone's reads are still in flux and one might get pushed soon, but it would be a little weird to be that hedgey with literally every scumbuddy he has tbf.

[Gammagooey]

If he's scum, he no-killed because he didn't want to clear anyone with his tracker shot now that we're down to just 1 scum left

[Gammagooey]

Dave's readslist in #2241 waffles on all three of Maria/FL/DEB, I can see it being scum who doesn't want to take a strong stand on their partners early when everyone's reads are still in flux and one might get pushed soon, but it would be a little weird to be that hedgey with literally every scumbuddy he has tbf.

Let me rephrase my question then: Who were his other SRs from that readlist? Like, if you could translate his words into a ranked readlist (for yourself, maybe.. you don't have to post it in here) how would that look? And why would he ahve his entire team near the bottom? I have provided you with what scum!dave's readlist looks like in a game I was his scum partner in. Do you think it looks anything like the one he provided in 2241?

It looks like it would have been nom/Maria/DEB as scummish reads and everyone else at null or above - I think you have a pretty good point but also don't want to completely ignore the possibility that the scum's plan from near the beginning of the game was to be pretty heavy on distancing but try to avoid hardpushing their scumbuddies into an actual lynch.

I'll prob re-read a bit tomorrow night and try to evaluate dave's earlier interactions with scum since I haven't gone over it in as much detail as I'd like aside from the parts that I remembered strongly disliking

[Gammagooey]

Some FL posts from Day 3
viewtopic.php?p=11524795#p11524795
viewtopic.php?p=11524848#p11524848
viewtopic.php?p=11524850#p11524850
viewtopic.php?p=11524987#p11524987
FL's push here plus MariaR's push on Fire both feel like they genuinely wanted the lynch to go through on Firebringer imo

kuribo's interactions with FL also feel like not scum v scum on day 3 but that's more gut than having individual posts I can point to that are really clear about it

[Gammagooey]

My favorite thing is when I flip town and people decide they're going to go after kuribo because one of us has to be scum.

If I'm scum, can you explain my play over the last few days and nights?

It felt like you mostly haven't been here? If you were around whatever day FL died between your last post & the hammer and had any thoughts about that time period between there I'd like to hear them.

A few sentences from you about whoever you're scumreading most now atm would be helpful too

[Gammagooey]

I mean like I'm not scum and there's no case that I am

Why did scum me pick a fight with nom after the scum team gave her a venge shot?

Why did scum me decide to get suspicious of my neighborhood and pick a fight with kuribo?

Why did scum me not kill kuribo to pick up the double vote from our LMS?

What about my game play had indicated that I am scum?

it's an easy push and she was playing like garbage

Why not? Both of them not being in your QT that night is provably true and gives you something to go off of for a bit, and either of you/kuribo getting lynched probably makes it less likely Maria gets lynched long-term

When would you have time to kill kuribo? yeah it gives one of you/Maria the double vote eventually but also puts suspicion on both of you until one of you/Maria gets lynched

The lack of interest in the game and PoE
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
man look at Almost making the same point I was about to

If you think something makes you look obviously town point it out

Don't expect other people to put more effort into showing that you're town than you're willing to

[Gammagooey]

Y'all are relying on bad PoE and trying to mechanically outguess a setup. You are going to vote me, I'm going to flip town, then you're going to vote kuribo and he's probably going to flip town.

mmmkay

so then do you want to vote dave? are you particularly convinced he's scum? if so why? if not also why?

[Gammagooey]

Because I think it's suspicious that Maria's first instinct was to block his neighborhood! A neighborhood that dishes out investigative powers

That sure is slightly bad but in the realm of possibility coming from dave-town

How do you feel about dave's play currently? How did you feel about dave in previous days?

[Gammagooey]

I had to wake up early to vote yesterday and then passed out on my couch after board game night

panth's responses to Almost and kuribo weren't great, I'm leaning towards just voting him but I'll do my due diligence and read the shit I've been meaning to first. I'm a little burnt out so it still might not be tonight but I have tomorrow night completely free so def. by then.

[Gammagooey]

aight I have hot chocolate and music it's reading time

for anyone else who wants some trippy AI-themed electronica
https://open.spotify.com/track/3pEFI3qJ ... luaVk74BMQ

[Gammagooey]

@Ank - you played with dave scum who replaced out in this game day 1: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=79010 Do you think his play here is noticeably better/townier than his play there?

@dave - is there another town PR game where you kept your reads/reasonings so close to your chest you can link me? And do you remember how you felt about Flavor Leaf through days 3 & 4?

[Gammagooey]

@panth - why did you not like how I joined nom's wagon at the start of day...whatever it was when nom got lynched (4 probably?)
What did you like about Maria's posting early on?

[Gammagooey]

@panth- I probably already know the answer to this, but were you around at all from the time that I started pushing for a DEB wagon as an alternative to nom/Ank at the end of day 4 until the thread closed and if so did you have any thoughts you remember from then?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read a lot of dave/panth day 3 & day 4 stuff and the context around it

my gut yells that dave is still scum

my brain says 'I've looked at a lot of things and they both have their bad points and interactions with scum that could make them scum but everyone but panth and dave sure are fucking town aren't they?'

so I'm going to do this
VOTE: davesaz

and share the rest of my thoughts when my dumb little questions get answered

If panth gets hammered before they do I'm honestly fine with it cause I'll still be here tomorrow unless we've won the game from a panth lynch so get shrugged at

[Gammagooey]

And do you remember how you felt about Flavor Leaf through days 3 & 4?

[Gammagooey]

And do you remember how you felt about Flavor Leaf through days 3 & 4?

Somewhat suspicious evidenced by 4875 and 5097.
I couldn't do anything more than speed read huge chunks of those days IIRC due to V/LA and heavy work days draining my brain.

Really?

Neither of those posts really indicate to me that you were suspicious of him, just responding to him/his play, and #4875 is you agreeing with FL that Maria looks like scum caught for the wrong reasons.

You also had this day 3

Nom has been pressured/a wagon suggestion for most of the game yeah.
pedit: FL I'm gonna grab my taser

I don’t like how anytime Nomnom starts to see me getting pushed a bit, she immediately moves from on my side to stabbing me in the back. This has happened 4 times only for her to drop it right after and go somewhere else like it never happened.

It feels forced.

And I believe I’m actually pretty good at reading Nomnom.

That would actually be bus indicative. Not a very strong indicator but it's what I think when seeing it.
I don't see scum!FL bringing this up though.

and followed FL immediately onto DEB day 4

Scum removed me because they want to ensure nom has venge because she is gonna shoot wrong and they want her to save them work

Which is what Maria says as point 2 and I agree

So let’s not lynch nom

Yet you voted me? This is kind of a contradiction by you because I’ve been actively trying to not have Nomnom be the lynch here.


Biggest thing that gives me pause on DEB is Maria pushing it, but I’m okay killing there.

VOTE: DEB

Curious to what happens.

I think DEB is similar here to D&D where he was cult leader.
VOTE: DEB

[Gammagooey]

And tbf I don't even really think the DEB vote right after Flavor is that bad on its own, you can think someone is scummy and potentially bussing their partner or just shrug and figure that they're both scummy and maybe you're wrong on one, especially with DEB's lurktastic play

But do you really think given your thoughts on FL at the time that would have joined a wagon on FL day 3 or day 4 if a serious one had come up? If you don't remember having a particularly strong opinion on him at the time it's fine and I'd like to hear that but I'm trying to figure out what you actually thought about him at the time and that doesn't really seem to match up.

[Gammagooey]

My lord dave I don't care about your pedantic sass

This is prob the last question I have for you tonight if you don't mind answering it.

But do you think given your thoughts on FL at the time that would have joined a wagon on FL day 3 or day 4 if a serious one had come up? If you don't remember having a particularly strong opinion on him at the time it's fine and I'd like to hear that but I'm trying to figure out what you actually thought about him at the time

[Gammagooey]

Yeah I'm gonna go sleep

I'll sum up my thoughts on the read-through tomorrow afternoon or sometime around then assuming the day's still going

[Gammagooey]

So basically what I got from rereading a bunch of dave+Flavor+Maria's isos together
(and then some of panth+Flavor+Maria's later)

is that dave's day 1 play feels weird for how much he interacted with scum, but is otherwise pretty damn good, and if we had gone from Day 1 or day 2 or probably day 3 into a Maria lynch+FL lynch+DEB lynch I'd probably feel mostly fine about him (though I'd still bitch about how little it felt like he scumhunted imo in days 2 & 3)

Spoiler: some dave+FL day 1 posts

VOTE: flavor leaf

I guess I’ll 1v1 dave. Interested in seeing what happens

VOTE: Davesaz

Fl link a town game you started off disinterested in. I just saw a scumgame where you weren’t your usual playful self.

BTW serious FL is still not fun FL. Be interesting to find out post game whether this is all because of that naked vote though.

Actually, there's also a big difference between not liking and not being on board. I had something like 4 pages to read and another one got posted while I wrote my 2nd post.
I'm gonna take my wife to get ice cream. Hopefully FL has pulled his head out his ass with respect to me before I'm back.

pedit: and another half page writing this one

You don’t like the push but you’re on board...?

No, what I said was not on board. Not joining along with, which carries no direct connotation of agreeing with or not agreeing with. I guess it does carry a vague kinda "wtf is that" feel. And that post was

strictly

about the page containing the post I quoted the reads list from.

I have a very strong mistrust of that Elements town read, which seems completely unwarranted especially given the ratio of Elements posting of real content to a dozen others. That may or may not result in an independent scumread there regardless of what your thing yields.

Pedit: you can turn off the self promotional subtext. I'd like to be able to continue enjoying the game, please.

Wow, I would have thought Maria had played enough games with me to not be so completely wrong about what to expect.

Dave’s played with me way too much to know I take some time to pounce into my town games to immediately go straight towards a vote, so I’m curious on the follow up.

I like to make a grand entrance; i take over games too much with the present of my presence

lol

, so i like to come in and out.

Fl link a town game you started off disinterested in. I just saw a scumgame where you weren’t your usual playful self.

I’m going to go find a single random town game out there

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=80488

I was in a hydra here, but look at the Baezu Leaf ISO.

Then look at like my first 5 posts. I signed them all.

My town game is the epitome of “dgaf until I do”

This game also started yesterday, Dave. Pushing me for not coming out of the gate blazing...

Would you like me to come out blazing?

I have 2 votes on me from actual lol votes.

Hmm, I think I mostly finished? my very early reads and I'm looking at:

[Volpe]
[Elements]
[GiF, Fark?, Espresso]
[everyone else] - null or nullscum

I don't think I'm really on board with what FL is doing on the page I'm reading, but this reads list struck me as strange. In particular what has Elements done to deserve being highest town read?

I also didn’t hard push, I just voted.

People act like I’m some pariah god here. Without any meta on me as a player, this would have been taken much better.


Also, Volpe’s scum list is literally a combination of anyone going after him.

I feel scum are more likely to defend townVolpe in this scenario, so if Volpe is town, dave is probably lock scum.

@Nomnom - if Volpe is town, they have me pushing them. Scum will position themselves on both sides. They wouldn’t need to join my side just yet. They’d get enough pressure based on my push.

Dave’s also lock scum, and you can see how he’s positioning.

UNVOTE:

Yes, it was a lolvote. Thought I'd take a swing at a beehive and see what happened.

You need to read my entire post before trying to interpret whether I'm defending Volpe. (hint: not)
There is a big difference between liking / not liking the substance of a push, and having a read on the target.

UNVOTE:

Yes, it was a lolvote. Thought I'd take a swing at a beehive and see what happened.

You need to read my entire post before trying to interpret whether I'm defending Volpe. (hint: not)
There is a big difference between liking / not liking the substance of a push, and having a read on the target.

I don’t care if people like my push or not, it’s a completely valid reason to push.

People always talk about 3rd or 4th on the wagon is scum, screw that noise, I’m going less surface level with it.

If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, it’s worth diving into.

This has been a great discussion starter, and now look at us.

We in this shit now.

Actually, there's also a big difference between not liking and not being on board. I had something like 4 pages to read and another one got posted while I wrote my 2nd post.
I'm gonna take my wife to get ice cream. Hopefully FL has pulled his head out his ass with respect to me before I'm back.

pedit: and another half page writing this one

I just kinda think you’re scum here, tbh. I can’t really explain it yet, but yeah. I do expect you to play in a way to balance my read on you if you are scum, so

You don’t like the push but you’re on board...?

Who’s on PenguinPower’s team? I need him here. You know how many games I went 3 out of 5 of these guys are scum. Idk which 3. And was correct? Idk the relevancy of that, but it popped into my head here.

Oh, right, because people were like, nope don’t like that FL, you’re not right. And i was right.

BTW serious FL is still not fun FL. Be interesting to find out post game whether this is all because of that naked vote though.

Idk, man. I just feel it. My gut is generally pretty good at that kind of stuff, and if I’m wrong, I don’t think I’m necessarily bad at reading you.

I feel I’d figure it out eventually. I’m not pushing you today.

@FL why did you jump from FoS on chenn to a hard attack on someone who voted him?

@FL why did you jump from FoS on chenn to a hard attack on someone who voted him?

FL you are doing a really good job putting words in my mouth that weren't there

Someone’s getting Third Degree Boon’d, they just don’t know it yet.

Also, I just kind of say random surface level stances on things until someone comes off as actually scummy early game.

But day 4 is fucking gross, it's the day when he could get away with the most because he didn't want to actually give reads in that time, Maria townread that because ???, and every time a scum member brought up thinking he might be scummy during it they clarified that they didn't think he would be lynched that day or just said they weren't going to push dave that day

This is every single vote he made Day 4, put alongside FL's posts before his (who he just said he was somewhat suspicious of that day) and a couple contextual Ank/EP posts

Spoiler: Read this please, it's not that long

Scum removed me because they want to ensure nom has venge because she is gonna shoot wrong and they want her to save them work

Which is what Maria says as point 2 and I agree

So let’s not lynch nom

Yet you voted me? This is kind of a contradiction by you because I’ve been actively trying to not have Nomnom be the lynch here.


Biggest thing that gives me pause on DEB is Maria pushing it, but I’m okay killing there.

VOTE: DEB

Curious to what happens.

I think DEB is similar here to D&D where he was cult leader.
VOTE: DEB

VOTE: Ankamius

VOTE: Ank

VOTE: Ank

Can you explain why you voted here?

You haven't talked about Ank much recently, so the naked vote comes as a bit of a surprise.

With a few people comparing sizes of their

body parts

and some of the same and others doing nothing but whine about the game state, I figured we need some

wagons

.
I kinda also wanted to see who would comment, if anyone.

I need to sleep, so i‘ll do a deep dive sometime tomorrow if i can.

UNVOTE: Ank

Gamma

Nomnom
Kuribo

Espresso
A50
DEB

Dave
Ank
Firebringer

Maria

Panth

Is where I think I’m at atm.

Panth what are your reads atm?

All of them please

I don't need a paragraph or anything for all of them, just a brief explanation on every slot works

I need to double check things

But it literally might just be as simple as Gamma + Davesaz + 2 in the roleblocker hood

No shit the gamestate is like this if all the attention is on the all town hoods

The night actions of the commute and doctor hood make sense as all town
Revealing my neighborhood makes sense
Removing FB was to add more tension onto nom and remove the commute
Me + EP is a distraction, nom is a distraction

It makes sense

VOTE: panth

To me it really feels like dave was going along with what his scumteam was doing for most of the game - Maria needed an excuse to roleblock him night 1? Bam that's provided with Maria and dave butting heads a little day 1 and then dave just shrugging off Maria roleblocking him as not alignment relevant for her later. DEB's getting the first serious push of the game? Make a post asking Ank whether the wagon being all-town includes him even though he doesn't seem like he's been townreading DEB before that and I don't think it makes sense as an assumption from Ank's posts alone. FL needs help pushing town wagons day 4 to try to secure the win? dave is there. People are finally bothering to push FL on his slip with Maria? There's dave again defending it and trying to direct the conversation away with it until Almost makes it clear that the FL wagon isn't going away, and then dave immediately jumps on and hops off again later when Firebringer is poking him.

Spoiler: dave's DEB wagon question

Dr Easy Bake (6): Gammagooey, Almost50, chennisden, Flavor Leaf, Ankamius, MariaR

I think this wagon has very good odds of being all town

Including the target?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panth has not been around a ton, and he has going along with Maria as a strong town read without much thought against him, but to me at least his reactions to the game feel more natural, his townread on FL the day FL got lynched feels like an actual townread instead of an excuse for not voting him sooner, and he's imo felt more like a town player getting invested and irritated at the game than dave has. I DON'T think he has really any interactions with scum that are implausible to fake, and his play hasn't been particularly engaged through a lot of the game so I wouldn't be absolutely shocked if I was wrong. But I also think that panth hasn't really had a cohesive plan this game - his play has been "push nom because she's scummy - push DEB because his play is garbage and my neighbors told me too", which I personally think is more likely to be a town mindset than a scum one. Maybe he was expecting FL/Maria to carry the game for him once he replaced in as scum, but I can't help but think he'd just be doing more to either help his partners or muddy the waters if he or they got lynched.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MY SUMMARY IS: I would like to lynch dave and please read the above for why if you haven't already. If you're convinced panth is scum then I won't shed a tear over it but this is what I would personally like to do.

[Gammagooey]

@gooey:

Going by the primitive rule of 1 in 3, dave is TOWN. Could you please just trust me on this? I mean, we're down to just 1 scum alive, so we can lynch him (and lose) the day AFTER tomorrow if the game goes that long.

As someone who just went through what felt like half the dumb game I can find you at least two rule of threes that point to panth being town by that logic too, FL is talking about neighborhoods and not players anyway

If either of Fire/kuribo want panth dead then panth lynch is happening

if they both want dave instead then as I said I'd prefer that

If the day is still going on let's say Sunday I'll also just hammer panth so chill

[Gammagooey]

Maria, Panth, Ank is probably the scum team. Maybe DEB instead of Panth.

Panth, FB, DEB. If you’re not scum, then I’m starting to feel like it’s A50, but that’s a slippery slope

[Gammagooey]

Here’s the thing, I started thinking, and the player that we would agree on as a compromise lynch, my go to person I was about to say was “I could do Dave.”

However...I feel like because I was about to say that without thinking, that he is a mislynch.

I could be overthinking it.

Let’s lynch Panth

Or Maria

Or FB

VOTE: Panth

and for the SPICIEST threesome of all

Panth, Dave, A50 is where I’m at.

and to be clear I think there's a 0% chance that you're scum this game Almost, you getting legitimately mad at me for my 'no shit sherlock' comment day 1 when you wanted DEB dead over all the other lurkers doesn't come from scum trying to bus day 1, not to mention all the other shit you've done since near the end of day 4 that's made you obvtown

but yeah I think dave's scum and if it's not it's incredibly likely to be panth because I think literally everyone else in the game has STRONG reasons to be town, and I want the sweet sweet bragging rights of us lynching the last 3 scum consecutively but panth first and then dave still wins us the game so *shrug*

[Gammagooey]

If you had even half an ounce of common sense you'd automatically leave me till lylo.

jjh says you're going a bit off the deep end and away from common sense like he did last team mafia. He said you can live another day but not to LyLo. He explains that LyLo is the perfect time for scum!you to fake a guilty.

Disclaimer: I am adamant dave is TOWN here. Furthermore, it is strategically best for town to lynch in panth/kuribo today (and that's regardless of my or anyone else's reads). You don't bloody take a DOUBLEVOTER to a 3-player LyLo unless they've been

mechanically cleared

. Who the fuck taught you to play Mafia??

i mean you and ank do have an ability to prevent a theoretical scum double-voter from winning regardless of how many of you two are alive tomorrow ya know

Fire unless you want to lynch dave I'm gonna hammer panth after I get back from things this afternoon

Also I want to say I appreciate your horny levity but I'm not sure if I actually do

[Gammagooey]

Except as we've BOTH confirmed, the ability does not work in LYLO

I don't think panth has confirmed that actually? At least I didn't see him say it around when it was initially claimed

[Gammagooey]

Cool thanks

[Gammagooey]

FIRRRE ill be done with errands in like an hour and im tired of being bored and restless

Does RC actually have reads and are you going to vote someone or no

[Gammagooey]

Alright let's get on with it

VOTE: panthaleon

Hey pannnnnnth were you scum?

[Gammagooey]

Man i made a case on dave and it sure didn't seem like anyone else was moving

I'm still 98% sure we just lynch Dave tomorrow and win

[Gammagooey]

if theres no kill, i might just lynch dave because he is annoying. does that make me bad?

No it's a policy lynch

Dave says stuff like that is good play

[Gammagooey]

Also might as well do this even though it won't do anything but make Dave act more condescending when we lynch him

HEY DAVE
IF YOU WANT TO USE YOUR TRACKER ABILITY BEFORE YOU GET LYNCHED
MAYBE YOU SHOULD USE IT TONIGHT

[Gammagooey]

Ok
Have fun reporting being called such horrific things as 'naive' and 'condescending' in a mafia game
If it makes you feel better I won't hold it against you once you flip scum

[Gammagooey]

Ok
Have fun reporting being called such horrific things as 'naive' and 'condescending' in a mafia game
If it makes you feel better I won't hold it against you once you flip scum

The bar for reportable behavior sure has lowered in the eight years since I MSpainted myself naked and pissing fire on Llamarble while he defended himself with a giant turd

Yep
I've secretly been banned for half the game for calling Jingle and FL dumb on day 4 but the mods won't announce it until the game ends

[Gammagooey]

kuribo and his heighteism. It is super insulting.

Ok shorty

[Gammagooey]

throw some jabs at me. I won't report them.

I don't believe in punching down

but ur like six foot whatever. when do u ever get the chance to punch up!?!?

Would some poutine make you feel better aboot it

Could I just get some fries?
We've already got Fire being thick & cheesy over here

[Gammagooey]

I'd rather lynch Dave & shoot kuribo given that a)I still think Dave is way summer than kuribo and b)Dave probably still has a commute left

Not voting yet and I've got plans tonight but I'll be around tomorrow

[Gammagooey]

Like honestly I expected exactly this from dave-scum except that he'd fake a guilty on one of ank/almost instead

I also lost the last UT game I played in b/c of a completely unpredictable extra scum kill so I'm more than a bit hesitant to compromise on the order here

[Gammagooey]

UT's last game had a scum copy ability, similar to what FL fakeclaimed shooting EP with when he was dying in this game actually

As far as I see it we probably win this either way as long as we're not dumb enough to let either the person claiming the guilty or the guiltied live tomorrow if we're wrong UNLESS that's the case so that's how I intend to play it

[Gammagooey]

jjh would also like to point out that if dave is scum and still has his commute shot, he can't both commute and kill on the same night.

That's confirmed by what?

[Gammagooey]

Dave since you're here

Why did you refuse to share reads for all of day 4 and then not track/watch anyone that night?

[Gammagooey]

If I failed to track then my scumreads were wrong.
Therefore it's someone I'm not scumreading. Either kuribo or A50.
Kuribo hammered under conditions where it may still have been possible to get me.
Ergo track kuribo since he's so confident he can get me the next day.

This isn't even true btw

[Gammagooey]

jjh would also like to point out that if dave is scum and still has his commute shot, he can't both commute and kill on the same night.

That's confirmed by what?

By how Commuter works. Commuter

leaves town

so can neither target nor be targeted.

Fair

I still want to lynch Dave over kuribo

[Gammagooey]

I'm more concerned with THE POINT of you nuzzling up to FL through the entire day instead of having reads of your own on day 4 and sharing them with everyone

[Gammagooey]

I'm walking dog, fire I'm trusting you to not quicklynch anything while I'm gone

[Gammagooey]

So look, here's where I'm at

Almost, you asked for me to trust you yesterday, and I voted panth. I trust you to be town, but I frankly don't trust you to actually lynch scum over town in this situation. If you have an actual mechanical reason why it's better to lynch kuribo over dave, then I'll listen, but I feel that dave has been full of shit for the past several days about how he's been playing, he's been trying to position himself as this bullshit 'savior' over actually trying to lynch scum, and "dave is the cop" is not good enough when there's clearly only one scum left and the only reason to lynch one over the other is to play around horseshit redirect/extra kill scum abilities that hopefully don't exist but are worth playing around because we pretty clearly win the game as long as we have some semblance of competence otherwise.

Fire, I don't want you to vote yet but I do want your opinion on who you think is more likely scum and why. I'll be gone in an hour so if you need more time than that then that's fine but I probably won't be responding until tomorrow (and I will also maybe have a hangover).

[Gammagooey]

VOTE: Kuribo

RC told me to do this and told me to tell davesaz that he isn’t a Good mechanical player or a top player at all.

I still don't really care about RC

do you personally feel that kuribo is more likely scum than dave

[Gammagooey]

ugh

if we lose the game because of some horseshit after this I will be incredibly fucking disappointed

and I'm not sure whether to recommend that Almost not shoot to account for some bullshit redirect ability or something or if scum somehow inheriting a vig shot is more likely

VOTE: kuribo

sorry if you're town kuribo

[Gammagooey]

actually I guess fire hammered you already since Almost voted earlier

so

shrug