Problems with the Queues
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popsofctown SheSurvivor
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3 ongoing fully open micros
I'm counting a locked pre-game thread though, that's dirty pool"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
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now this is an idea i can get behind!In post 301, OkaPoka wrote:what if the open queue was just terminated| here.GTKAS- OkaPoka
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Alyssa The Lamb Mafia Scum
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The open setup challenges are a good way to create new open setups to potentially throw into the mix, but the problem with them (and why I've personally stopped trying to create any for it in the past half a year) is because I've felt like it has sort of warped to be "how can we make x and y work at all, when x and y are very limiting factors" rather than "how do we take an interesting concept and make a good setup out of it"
I think the general quality of open game setups is pretty low and we have a tool to use to help with that problem, but its hard to do so right now- gobbledygook
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Yeah it's kind of odd that we have so much spec on open games but none of them are being run? Kind of an enormous waste of effort if you ask me.In post 304, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:The open setup challenges are a good way to create new open setups to potentially throw into the mix, but the problem with them (and why I've personally stopped trying to create any for it in the past half a year) is because I've felt like it has sort of warped to be "how can we make x and y work at all, when x and y are very limiting factors" rather than "how do we take an interesting concept and make a good setup out of it"
I think the general quality of open game setups is pretty low and we have a tool to use to help with that problem, but its hard to do so right now- Kerset
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The biggest issue with open queue is list of Approved Open Setups. 50% of open games are first time mods, which need to get mod experience and the easiest way to get through your first mod game is by hosting one of those boring setups. Nobody wants to play those games!!!!!!!!!!
Let open game review members pick interesting setups for first time mods!giv me pagetop :(- Alisae
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ADDITIONAL 2 WEEKSIn post 948, T-Bone wrote:Announcement: With the conclusion of Team Mafia, I will once again enforce sign-up time limits. These games have 2 additional weeks to fill from this post.
Excuse me?| here.GTKAS- Alisae
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Alisae lolbalance
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you actually bring up a valid pointIn post 307, Kerset wrote:The biggest issue with open queue is list of Approved Open Setups. 50% of open games are first time mods, which need to get mod experience and the easiest way to get through your first mod game is by hosting one of those boring setups. Nobody wants to play those games!!!!!!!!!!
If you don't want to design a normal, you can /in to mod a pre-designed normal, and get a setup that is far more interesting then what the open queue has to offer.
So now here's the question:
If you REALLY do not want to try your hand at making a mafia game, why would you mod an Open to be given a hand of 3 setups you really do not like, as well as mod in a queue that sucks, over modding a normal, and maybe being handed a cool setup?| here.GTKAS- T-Bone
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T-Bone He/HimA Cut Above
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Hey, I appreciate the sudden enthusiasm about the Open Queue. So here's where we are at. First, the Open Queue isn't going anywhere so obviously we will ignore any suggestions of that nature.
Second, I do want to change the Open Queue! It was last reformed by Llama in 2014/2015. It is well overdue for a change!
But, while I certainly have the power to make unilateral changes, I will not. I will only make changes with heavy community involvement. I want to change the Approved Open Setups. I want to add new ones to the list! But I cannot do it without heavy community involvement. I started asking for help on this back in August. The wiki group did some important work.
I also asked the Marathon Weekend crew to start testing Open Set-Ups. I also asked the folks who participate in the Open Setup Contest to try and run some of those set-ups. This is where enthusiasm died, and we've been stuck. So far no games have been run in an effort to test out any new set-ups for the Approved List.
Ultimately, I'd love to add new games to the Approved List and remove games people don't want to play. I cannot do that without help. So, if you'd like to help, I can use it. Join the Wiki Tiki usergroup, even if you don't know how to edit the Wiki.
As for other suggestions. Most likely we're not going to increase the games in sign-ups at once (full-time). Part of the function of the Open Queue is a service. I would like for people to view the Open Queue the same way they view the Newbie Queue, in that we are providing a place for first time Mods to get their modding experience, and potentially make some friends willing to play for them. Part of that of course will be to make the Approved Setup list better (as mentioned above). Maybe I can do more to advertise and support first time mods? I'd be happy to do so. Let's find a way to make that process better for players and Moderators.
I'd be happy to do more 'events' to create a 3rd lane for moderators on temporary basis (like I did for Blitz Month in the Mini Theme queue). Other than doing a Blitz month in the Open Queue, I am stuck for ideas.
I can end the self-automation. That isn't working and I should have ended it sooner.
Anyway, ultimately, whether we can make significant changes to the Open Queue or not will depend on community involvement. A lot of people have proposed some ideas, and I'd want to discuss them. But, I'm not willing to make unilateral changes to the queue on my own.- Alisae
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Is this ultimately your vision for the Open Queue?In post 310, T-Bone wrote:I would like for people to view the Open Queue the same way they view the Newbie Queue, in that we are providing a place for first time Mods to get their modding experience, and potentially make some friends willing to play for them.| here.GTKAS- zoraster
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I'm not sure if this is serious, but what's the point? To identify VIP mods? We don't really need a queue to do that if that's really something we wanted to do.In post 247, Alisae wrote:tbh, I just want a queue that is exclusive to only the moderators with the highest rep. Something sorta like a VIP queue.
It's not like we need a queue to get these types of mods through faster. Very few of the queues have a backlog of moderators. Not even the Normal queue does right now..- gobbledygook
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It wouldn’t be a terrible idea to have a sort of retired approved setups for old setups that are balanced and fine but set aside to allow newer setups to run
Like with Magic the Gathering and card games how sets get rotated out sort of thing
So stuff that the site isn’t as keen on, like multi ball, can be run in theory but is not presented to new mods.
Something like that
I’ll see if I can spend some quarantine time going through open setupsCome see me in the Great American Melodrama in Oceano- BBmolla
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Is there a way we can make rules to fix this for the contestsIn post 304, Alyssa The Lamb wrote:The open setup challenges are a good way to create new open setups to potentially throw into the mix, but the problem with them (and why I've personally stopped trying to create any for it in the past half a year) is because I've felt like it has sort of warped to be "how can we make x and y work at all, when x and y are very limiting factors" rather than "how do we take an interesting concept and make a good setup out of it"
I think the general quality of open game setups is pretty low and we have a tool to use to help with that problem, but its hard to do so right now
Cause like literally the format is the way it is because I made a suggestion and based it off of what I’d seen for hero contests for Dota (lol). I feel it’s sort of morphed over time, my initial idea was more making different roles work sort of thing.
If we can have more specified rules for these contests maybe they’d be more beneficial?
Or maybe a new system where a group comes up with the guidelines for next month?
My point is if that’s not working we can fix it, the whole point was to generate new setups and if it’s failing us there we should change itCome see me in the Great American Melodrama in Oceano- OkaPoka
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We have lots of different setup contests that we can go through- northsidegal
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northsidegal Survivor
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@TBone-
I can't help but feel that, while changing the list of Approved Open setups should help the open queue somewhat, it doesn't really do much to stop the issue of queue blockage. I also think that it just leaves some other issues floating, like that of a lack of ability to test new open setups in an expedient manner.
I don't understand your reasoning for not wanting to increase to three games in signups at once, but I can imagine some reasons myself. That being said, what about at the very least changing to be like the Normal queue, with one slot for Micros and one slot for Minis / Larger games? This should immediately increase the amount of games being played in the open queue -- we can see at this very moment how many open games are being run in the Micro queue when they could potentially be in the Open queue. You may consider it a mere trick of accounting, shifting games from the Micro queue to the Open queue and not really increasing anything at all, but by having Micro Opens be run in the Open Queue that would otherwise be in the Micro Queue, other Micro games will reach signups faster. (The same could actuallyalsobe said about the Mini-Theme queue: it's only just occurred to me, but Undertale Semi-Open is being run in the Mini Theme queue rather than the Open queue. It's a heavily themed game, yes, but still an open one.)
Either in addition to or instead of that change, I would still suggest some sort of expedited way to run experimental setups -- potentially it could be a monthly or bi-monthly "event", if you are against a permanent slot. I believe we have been "stuck"--as you say--to test new open setups primarily because of long mod queue times. I don't think it's an overstatement to say that the average waiting time between signing up to mod in the open queue and having your game just enter signups is an entire month or more. We see that Large Theme Games that aren't even really Themes but are just Large Opens get run in the Large Theme Queue all the time -- I would hypothesize because of the queue times. I know that personally that's why I ran Baton Pass in that queue, and I expect that that's why a game like Gameshow Mafia might have been run there as well (this might just be due to moderator preference or because Large Themes are perceived as more of "big events" than just large open games, but I digress). I feel that I should also bring up the Marathon Weekend Open Setup group, who were able to blaze through a ton of prospective setups given the fast nature of marathon games.
The point I am trying to make here is that, the way I view this situation, one cause (a slow or blocked game queue) is having multiple negative effects: aliterallack of ongoing open games, a lack of ability to test new open setups, and a diaspora of setups that otherwise would have been run in the open queue.- northsidegal
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northsidegal Survivor
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Also, if I might make a suggestion: I think that you should still offer first time mods a random suggestion of three setups, but just make it clear that they're free to run any approved open setup that they want. Like I said, choice overload and all that. One thing that I think pre-designed normal setups has definitely proven is that some people just want a setup to be chosen for them, and are primarily focused on modding it rather than coming up with it. It's not difficult to just pick a random one from an Approved Setups list, sure, but having those immediate three options there is, I think, a benefit.- OkaPoka
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I'm going to copy paste my posts from when we went through the current Approved Open setups back in late August:
Spoiler:
If you don't care to read all that, it would leave the Micro Approved list as follows:
Spoiler:
Keep in mind that this was compiled in late August last year, so it's probably missing some new setups.- OkaPoka
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so standard to fill games is 2 weeks
what if we make it so you have to hit breakpoints? like it must be at half capacity at one week or its pulled, that way we can "cycle" through the queue faster? Also if mods are looking for experience, maybe we create some way for new mods to find out whats in demand? Like a game request thread/discord?- northsidegal
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northsidegal Survivor
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I'm going to quote Something_Smart on that, he had a pretty good analysis on the subject in a similarly themed thread:In post 323, OkaPoka wrote:so standard to fill games is 2 weeks
what if we make it so you have to hit breakpoints? like it must be at half capacity at one week or its pulled, that way we can "cycle" through the queue faster? Also if mods are looking for experience, maybe we create some way for new mods to find out whats in demand? Like a game request thread/discord?
Spoiler:
Also I notice that nearly a full year ago he also noticed that it's faster to just run experimental opens in other queues:
I mean, this really shouldn't be happening, right? It's just not efficient, right?In post 51, Something_Smart wrote:Experimental Open setups can just be run in the Mini Theme queue, to be honest. That queue usually moves way quicker, and open setups sometimes get run in there anyway. - northsidegal
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