Mini Normal 2122 | Endgame

[Bingle]

Replacing in. Don't have my Role PM yet, but egoing anyway. Apparently TSE is busy rn.

[Bingle]

Sorry you replaced into a scum slot

I would not be. Scum way more fun than town. JSYK, I'm Jingle. We played like 6 years ago a few times when I was new-ish to the site on JFSF and I think a few times as rob, but I can't actually recall specific games. I prefer your khakis signature.

Sup, Ricky. You town this game?

[Bingle]

If anyone has angry puppy neighborhood meta, I'd appreciate it, btw. There's a thing I want to look into and I don't want to dig for games to read by myself.

Angry Puppy, how strong would you say you are as scum?

[Bingle]

[Bingle]

Should change it. I can’t seem to follow my own advice.

Eh. It's solid advice. It's just not khakis.

[Bingle]

Also, what do you think about the wild angry puppy dog in our hood?

I'd rather talk about it in the hood tbh.

[Bingle]

Oh, right. Soft claim that I should be policy lynched at some point before LYLO and considered conftown until that point. I'd like to delay my death for a while, but doing so isn't particularly necessary.

Confirming me as town is completely useless, regardless of the means you use to do so. I'll probably full claim in the hood at some fairly early point as well, I just want to do a little puppy meta and get a sense of the setup before I do so.

[Bingle]

Non/garmr probably not S/S, but I'm feeling no townyness with their reactions to the kage wagon. Bob straight up ignoring everything also initiates :raise eyebrows:. flip also giving off weird IIoA vibes. He's present and weighing in and saying nothing.

Jake sounds town so far, puppy might be town if the specific thing pans out the right way. LF feels town. N_M very town.

NC is an enigma wrapped in a fantasy baseball league, imo, so I'm straight up ignoring attempting to read there.

I don't think I have enough to even get a feeling on anyone else.

[Bingle]

@Jingle - nope

Introdasting.

Any particular reason you're still voting me when you know that us both being town ups your effectiveness significantly?

[Bingle]

For context, I'm basically the Cliff Booth to Rick Dalton's Rick Dalton. If you don't get the reference, you should go watch good movies.

[Bingle]

Unless your ascetic then I doubt this is the case.

Your doubt is irrelevant, but okay.

[Bingle]

Wow this game got boring quick, back to shitposting it is

I feel let down. There’s very little shitposting coming from you.

[Bingle]

I'm Persivul

Yeah, I caught that. Do you have any links to games where you had a hood you can link to?

[Bingle]

Were you trying to "catch him in a lie", Bingle?

Basically the opposite, actually. He made that post in the neighborhood which was both discussing reads and saying he didn’t want to discuss the game in the neighborhood which struck me as odd.

Granted, the discussing of reads was a direct response to my slot.

I also wanted to check his meta on the purity of neighborhoods to see if it was worth my time to go into the other design reasons for a neighborhood. His reaction of “I’m not going to cooperate with meta” says no, that is a giant waste of my time.

[Bingle]

The most scummy player is

Not_Mafia

, in my opinion. I can't imagine such sporadic behavior as town.

The specific post you quoted was actually +town equity. Serious question, have you ever played with nm?

[Bingle]

you mention my questions from yeserday but what do you think of luna answer.

I did not and I’d rather you didn’t put things into my mouth. I mentioned 107.

As for your question to Luna, I think it was very surface level and her response was one of her less impressive posts.

[Bingle]

The most scummy player is

Not_Mafia

, in my opinion. I can't imagine such sporadic behavior as town.

The specific post you quoted was actually +town equity. Serious question, have you ever played with nm?

No, I never played with him. That post wasn't town equity.

Why does scum soft a role that is more often scum than town?
Why does town soft a role that is more often scum than town?
Why is either incentivized not to?

The second has a legitimate answer that isn’t “for the memes.”

While odds are that nm did it for the memes, the fact that there is a large reason for scum him to hold the information close to his chest means that, yeah, it’s more likely town than scum.

[Bingle]

That should include voting at random, making no sense in his sentences and joke about being mafia.

That’s fairly accurate, but it’s not exclusive to town him.

[Bingle]

Do either of these wagons have a case? 4 days left.

4 days is more than half of the total duration of a day. I'm pretty already lynching the guy who is trying to start fires with "Why not this?" while under pressure. Who and why do you think is worth a lynch that ISN'T a policy lynch.

[Bingle]

The case on me, for example, is LAL/defensive before replace out/I'm in a neighborhood.

[Bingle]

Are you sure you didnt dream placing a vote? Or is this your interpretation of what Jake is doing.

I was talking about flip there, although, yeah, I didn't remember that my vote was on Jake.

UNVOTE:

[Bingle]

2/3 of those are actually decent reasons. Especially day 1

I didn't say they weren't decent reasons. I can't really defend plays I didn't make, the best I can do is be as protown going forward as possible.

[Bingle]

That's who i thought you were talking about and thought you dreamed placing a vote on him.

Nah, I have several scumreads and am not sure flip is my favored lynch yet.

[Bingle]

I really shouldn't have to spell shit out but here we are.

And if this is your idea of pressure you're a joke.

You shouldn't have to give any reasons while voting a player that you characterize as forgettable? Really?

And yeah, I don't feel the need to put more pressure on you at the moment. You're doing things I can look at without having to poke you with a stick.

[Bingle]

Not_Mafia is town, and lynching out of the neighborhood today is suboptimal.

I pretty much agree.

What do you think of this post:

Pretty likely that one of us is.

or none of us have to be scum? Like I guess I understand the idea of "oh a hood, there has to be scum in it but its a very very low tier thought process and something that you could easily abuse as scum to attempt to chain lynch me and kage.

[Bingle]

Oh, I misunderstood Mad Dog in 417. I thought he was agreeing that we should lynch outside of the neighborhood (which we probably should, tbh) and continuing to cast shade on Nero. He was not. Carry on then.

[Bingle]

Speaking of, would you read respond to post 20 in the neighborhood, oh lord of mange?

[Bingle]

Anyway it’s pointless to talk about. Have to focus on the game. I’m waiting for bingle to do something but I’m still waiting.

Is the premise that I haven’t done anything AI? Cause that would be a load of crap.

[Bingle]

I also want his opinion on the hood logic.

Nero’s post sums it up. For lynching purposes, we should pretty much ignore that there is a hood until late game/a hood player flips scum. Trying to guess whether the hood contains scum without setup info is a fool’s errand. Especially considering I’ve claimed that I need to die before LYLO and RS claimed confirmable role, I’m just not really worried about the hood.

[Bingle]

VOTE: bob

[Bingle]

Hum, if we are not going to opt for a lynch among the hood, what is your suggestion for today ?

You know I did a reads dump with 4 scumreads like two days ago, right?

[Bingle]

Also, I don’t think we should lynch outside of the hood, I think we should lynch while ignoring hood status. If Nero is scummy, vote Nero. I’d argue lynching either me or RS early is a bad plan based on the soft claims but that’s really not related to the hood.

[Bingle]

Neighborhoods come with the operational assumption that there is 0-1 scum. Both ircher and RC (our reviewers) would heavy scumsided multiple scum neighborhoods. Therefore, in a vacuum, our options are lynch in 0-1/3, 2-3/10, or 3/13.

Given the Nash equilibrium values for 0-1 and 2-3 we could determine what the best option for our lynch pool was, but we don’t have that information readily available. Given that the implication in the signup thread is that TSE designed the setup himself and he’s had a history of submitting strange and subversive designs, I don’t have a read to be able to narrow that equilibrium down at all.

If we do hit scum in the hood, that’s positive evidence that all hood players remaining are town, which is an argument for lynching outside of the hood until we can make a more informed decision inside of it.

Tl;dr focusing on the neighborhood early is a trap, which is roughly the stance of RS as far as utilizing it but the opposite of the stance of RS as far as preferred lynch order. Since I don’t really have a read on Nero, I don’t particularly think lynching Nero is a great plan.

[Bingle]

Robb what are your not me reads?

[Bingle]

What do you think about Rabid though, Bingle?

He’s fairly consistent. The fact that he was against discussion of reads in the neighborhood but did so with minimal pushing from kage raised an eyebrow, but he hasn’t really said much there which is minor town points given I believe his stated opinion that neighborhoods are mostly useful for scum to manipulate town (which came across as genuine).

His desire to lynch you and me isn’t surprising, given his beliefs, but is curious in the context of his claim. (His claim of course being that he’ll be confirmed role as of D3, means that if we follow his plan me and Nero will both be dead and the only town controlled deaths barring a vig before that happens.) I could see that as a power move from scum who expects a false clear based on his role or a damage mitigation tool from scum in over his head, but neither seems to fit his approach here perfectly.

For now he’s a weak townread that I’m not interested in re-evaluating until D3.

[Bingle]

hello friends! reading now!

Salut!

[Bingle]

Full disclosure: I can’t read Nero worth shit. We’ve played together a lot and we usually have a mutual scumread or nullread.

[Bingle]

I had felt like you had gotten fairly good at reading then in CHK's game you were scum reading me early on and I had thought that was weird. perhaps I was thinking of someone else.

Only other games I can remember off the top of my head is Extravaganza where you were scum and I was unsure the whole time and Raybells anything uPick which was a long time ago and I tunneled you. I know we've played other games, but they don't stick out as well in my mind.

I kinda just started assuming you were town in mainstream and it worked pretty well, tbh.

[Bingle]

What does that mean?

Presumably you have some kind of read on a single player not named Bingle. I'd like to hear about one at least. More if possible.

[Bingle]

VOTE: trq

534 is god tier levels of gross. She shades like half the thread while avoiding making any real points about any of them, then sheeps a case she doesn't understand from one of the players she is shading onto a player she doesn't otherwise mention to put pressure behind a wagon that isn't the largest option.

[Bingle]

My slot has done the most in the neighborhood I think. It's very quiet, which is completely fine with me.

[Bingle]

developments in the hood

This, btw, is my fullclaim and a little bit of setup spec on my part. I'm not interested in fullclaiming in the main thread right now.

[Bingle]

Is this true ? I don't remember seeing that piece of information in this topic or a quote on the wiki.

The vast majority of neighborhoods are designed with a specific town/scum proportion. Especially in closed setups, it doesn't really make sense to randomize hood composition most of the time.

That's not to say a game couldn't be designed with a variable neighborhood composition, especially an open or semi open, but they usually aren't.

As far as the meta of neighborhood composition, most of my recent experience with neighborhoods has been in Neighborhood heavy games where every player has a hood, so... Less than useful.

[Bingle]

I explained the hood developments. RS agrees that I will be lynched eventually and thus am not worth sorting.

Why are people sr-ing Rick? I don’t have a read there yet but I am reliable at reading him and the pressure makes me curious.

VOTE: chkflip

L-2

Would be interested in a wagon on trq, bob or garner at this point as well.

[Bingle]

i'm sort of interested in flipping chk, I think if that flips scum we may have caught boon also.

Aye.

Town's gonna be really frustrated when they look back at my wagon and realize that all of the votes have very few reasons attached to them. The only role-related information I'll share is that I'm compulsive.

Do what you will.

Aye.

Followed by a terrible hammer.

Ta ta.

Aye.

[Bingle]

Nero Cain, Luna Fox, Robbnva, Garmr, Bingle, Not_Mafia,

2 scum in here likely.

@Bingle - if you’re town, I require your assistance.

I’m townreading most of that list, but moderately intrigued. Please, tell me more.

[Bingle]

I’m saying that I independently read LF NC Robb and myself as town, which would leave two potential scum on that wagon, and am interested in reasons that it would necessarily be a scum driven wagon.

Also, the argument that trq is confscum for the hammer because clidd should have been conftown is pretty baffling, tbh. Like, there’s reasons to scumread trq, but that one is pretty dogthoughtsy.

[Bingle]

Post boon claim? Mosdef.

I’m fairly fascinated by the sheer number of non vt claims.

@mod: could you add a sample VT pm as they’re required by normal standards and also confirm that this setup was indeed approved for normalcy?

[Bingle]

I almost think massclaim is the play here, but I want some rl time to think about that.

[Bingle]

I’m saying that I independently read LF NC Robb and myself as town, which would leave two potential scum on that wagon, and am interested in reasons that it would necessarily be a scum driven wagon.

Also, the argument that trq is confscum for the hammer because clidd should have been conftown is pretty baffling, tbh. Like, there’s reasons to scumread trq, but that one is pretty dogthoughtsy.

So do you sucm read any of those remaining an why? Also do you scum read anyoen off wagon?


As you avoided answering by question. How scum do you think the wagon was?

Is there reason you would scum read any of them on it. All you said is that you town read yourself and 3 others. But not gone into what you think of the others and their motivation for the wagon.

If you think scum avoided the wagon. Then what do you think the reason was?

I’m confused as to why you think I’d answer any of those questions while waiting for boon to elaborate on why he thinks the majority of the scumteam was on wagon.

[Bingle]

I’m continuing to not engage your questions. Continuing to ask them won’t really change that.

[Bingle]

Chkflip doesn’t go down without scum pushing them like that.

As an apathy lynch near deadline? Nah, sounds like an incredibly strong candidate for any type of wagon comp.

Chkflip (7) Nero Cain, Luna Fox, Robbnva, Garmr, Bingle, Not_Mafia, team rocket queen
Nero Cain (1) Rabid Schnauzer
Garmr (1) Bob3141
trq (1) chkflip
Not Voting (3) FB, Chemist1422, Rick Dalton

This is the EOD VC. There wasn't a counterwagon and there were 47 hours left in the deadline. It was a low energy lynch with shitty info coming from it, which isn't really any one person's fault, but makes the wagon comp analysis especially interesting. The closest to a real counterwagon would be trq who you claim to have an inno on.

Given the shit stagnation at EoD, FB was likely a status quo NK, which means his relationship with the wagon is probably secondary.

As of right now, we have 7 unclaimed slots in what is likely a role madness setup. (Yes, I'm aware of Boon :lolclaims:) Given accurate claims, there's a reasonable expectation of roughly 5 clears with NA optimization over the next night phase. That's insane. At the latest, tomorrow is our massclaim day. I expect the scumteam is fairly stacked.

[Bingle]

Rick, I'm not sure on your alignment right now. Why?

[Bingle]

At the latest, tomorrow is our massclaim day.

No

I can and will flip you if you try to fight me on that.

[Bingle]

Luna Fox
Garmr
Robbnva
Not_Mafia
clidd
Chemist1422
Rick Dalton
bob3141
team rocket queen

That's where I was at (minus people in the neighborhood) last night. I'm not interested in a trq lynch today with a potential clear there. I'm not interested in a neighborhood lynch. I feel less strongly about N_M than I did. Everything else remains largely unchanged.

VOTE: bob

I should be the lynch specifically tomorrow, I think.

[Bingle]

3 confirmed neighbors, 2 flipped town power roles, RD claimed weak visitor, NM softed power. I think there were some mason claims too, but they were early and weak.

[Bingle]

oh god.

Yes?

[Bingle]

Okay? That's largely irrelevant as a concern for today.

Massclaim is more about solving via balance than anything else. Refusing to use a tool because you dislike it is at best shortsighted and at worst blatantly scumsiding. If you're going to insist on it, I'll ignore my townread on you and kill you anyway.

We can delay that discussion for a phase though, since it legitimately doesn't matter right now.

[Bingle]

I don't want to know all the roles. I want people to claim the roles they have so I can evaluate the likelihood that specific roles and interactions are included in a game together, coordinate efforts, and win the game.

If you want to play without massclaiming, YOU should join the open queue, because it is less frequent that it's a good idea.

[Bingle]

I'm sorry, but there isn't a queue for "Wants to play specifically the same way as Robbnva."

Either you're going to have to deal with situations where massclaim makes sense, or you're going to have to play exclusively in Opens where massclaim is bad. Those are the two options. I'm not going to ignore a large facet of the game to pander to your tastes regardless of how you frame it.

[Bingle]

When did MS get to the point that people want massclaim early.

Sometime in the mid 2000's.

[Bingle]

I would like to believe Town boon wouldn’t have the scum reads he had for terrible reasons he has.

He also made a very illogical post, something about him hopping off the chk wagon. This isn’t town boon play imo. He’s my numero dos scum read.

Boon is know for fake claiming. He’s got no credibility with me. Plus I literally just said I don’t believe claims at face value.

This is an interesting pairing of boon awareness and boon naïveté.

[Bingle]

why is it interesting?

Because selective knowledge of the way Boon works could mean there's an agenda there. Why wouldn't it be interesting?

More to the point, why do you say Boon doesn't do moonlogic-y insane leaps as town?

[Bingle]

@everyone Of Chem/Bob/N_M who would you lynch if you had to choose in that pool?

[Bingle]

That’s a pointless question.

Not really. Are you tr-ing Chem/Bob or just sr-ing NM? Do you think your vanity wagon has anything resembling legs?

[Bingle]

Could someone who thinks LF might be scum tell me a why there when they get a chance?

[Bingle]

Pdodge. I’ll give this actual time tomorrow.

[Bingle]

Spoiler: Bob Continuously Misrepresenting Me

What do you think of flav?

Rick, I'm not sure on your alignment right now. Why?

Your question implies you think flav is town and yet at the same time lacks any stance on him.

No, it really doesn't. I said that Jake from Robb's Farm supposedly knowing that Boon fakeclaims frequently and NOT knowing that Boon moonlogics frequently is interesting. That's it. Nice try though.

I see you still have not yet explained why you think the wagon on chkflip was mostly town. Nor how mnay scum you think are on or off it. And whay you think that would be so.

I’m saying that I independently read LF NC Robb and myself as town, which would leave two potential scum on that wagon, and am interested in reasons that it would necessarily be a scum driven wagon.

tl;dr: Bob is trying hard to look like he's reading me while actively ignoring what I'm actually doing in order to push me and hatcheting any attempt to actually sort RD on my part.

[Bingle]

What are the votes at?

I'll make a VC in a mo, I just want to reply to some stuff first.

[Bingle]

it is easy to mistake the lynch for the night kill, especially since both their names started with c. however, leaving a dead player in your reads list seems odd; almost like we're supposed to notice it and think, "ah yes, bingle must be town".

That list was made over the nightphase in the Neighbor PT. clidd was still alive. If you doubt the veracity of that, ask either of the other people in the neighborhood.

[Bingle]

I dont understand why lynching Bingle is a necessity?

Bingle says that Bingle's role requires Bingle to be lynched before LYLO.

Given that either Bingle is town and thus trustworthy or Bingle is scum and thus town needs to lynch Bingle before endgame, this is pretty much guaranteed to be the truth.

[Bingle]

Is there anyone who actually thinks that?

At least NM does, and without checking I thought there was someone else. I feel like you're being fairly transparently town and scum cases on people I think are transparently town are easier than average for me to analyse.

[Bingle]

Unofficial VC (NC and Bob are the changed votes):

Votecount 2.04

bob3141

(3): Garmr, Bingle, Nero Cain,

Not_Mafia

(1): Luna Fox

team rocket queen

(1): Robbnva

Chemist1422

(1): Rabid Schnauzer

Rabid Schnauzer

(1): Rick Dalton

Luna Fox

(1): Not_Mafia

Bingle

(1): bob3141,

Not Voting

(2): Chemist1422, team rocket queen

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2020-03-22 08:15:00)

[Bingle]

Not sure. Definitely not on who they should be on imo

Agree that the VC right now is kinda fucked.

Hell, I'll agree that trq isn't a bad lynch. I was kinda hoping that we could leave WIFOM about the RD claim on trq in case scum chose to shoot RD over it and resolve that for me, since he's really not done anything to be more readable. I strong disagree with his reads at the moment, but I'm not sold he's scum. With that said, both bob and trq have high partner equity there if he IS. RD doesn't like lynching partners, and he's usually pretty good at disassembling wagons on them with other people. He's actually far easier to beat as scum if you can cut him off from support for his crazy thread manipulation early.

OTOH, I don't think Bob pushes me as scum here if he knows what I've posted in the neighborhood, which means a scum flip there heavy implies I can trust both of RS/NC. I don't get that same benefit from a trq lynch, and it's a super valuable benefit in the long term.

Basically, the way I see this game we have a handful of strongly town players and a few piles of null with varying streaks of scummyness in them. A bunch of vanity wagons on players who are ~kinda scummy~ isn't really healthy. I'd be fine with compromising on N_M/trq/Chem if I CAN'T get my Bob lynch. RD is going to obfuscate the shit out of the thread if we run him up as either alignment, which isn't healthy for such a scattered town in any case.

[Bingle]

Subject: Newbie Game Queue (Players and Mods)

/in new

If trq is an alt, he broke site rules by inning in the newbie queue as a newbie. There's no evidence of this.

so i know dumb tells are lean scum and it's anti-town to speculate on setup on day 1, but, uh, is there some amount of setup information i'm lacking? like how many mafia are in the game, possible roles, etc? and is there some way to gain this information legally without asking in the thread? since everyone else seems to know (or doesn't care?) it doesn't seem to be in any of the mod posts (speaking of which the flavor of this game doesn't seem to make any sense to me unless there is only one mafia or seth is a third party role?)

This, however implies at least a passing familiarity with mafia in general. From this paragraph, it is likely that trq's origin is largely based on Opens/SemiOpens.

tl;dr:

It's highly likely trq is actually a newb who has briefly spectated games or played mostly F2F in the past. This means the "Wincon slip" thing is pretty unimportant imo, but little things like the above quote and the greetings tell have more weight. Still, despite my scum in a vacuum read, this is a comparatively low info/value lynch.

[Bingle]

He's pushing me by squinting through three funhouse mirrors at about 10% of my posts in a way that actively detracts from my ability to read RD.

What's not to get?

[Bingle]

So only one person has posted reasons for bob with their vote.

:eyebrow:

1030

1037


Granted, both RS/NC are largely sheeping me based on Neighborhood/Claim, but it's not really a mysterious wagon.

[Bingle]

And you are technically correct. I didn't post reasons in the same post as I voted. The only person who wasn't privy to my thoughts before voting, however, was Garmr, so I stand by my statement that it's not a particularly mysterious wagon.

Besides. You don't HAVE to trust me.

I'm going to claim first tomorrow and then we're going to have a dayphase and then we're going to lynch me. You have very little to lose by just assuming I'm town here. Hell, you don't even have to assume I'm right. You just have to look at those logic posts with the frame of mind of "This is probably someone who actually believes all of these things."

[Bingle]

like I get he misrepped you, fine. but does that make somebody scum? Do you know how many townies I have scum read because they misrepped me?

It's not so much that he misrepped me. It's how, supported by townreads on a lot of the PL.

[Bingle]

from your pov I can see this is the real motive for your lynch. Except I don't think you, if town, can trust both your neighbors because the odds are still extremely high one is scum.

I think it's roughly 80% we're all town.

[Bingle]

And I’ll lynch bungle also

Yes. You will.

I'm vengeful.

[Bingle]

Lynching me takes the game off of evens and solves me being charismatic. We're lynching me.

The only real question is who I vengekill.

[Bingle]

I'm pending neighborhood discussion btw, so I'd prefer we not get too close to my lynch just yet.

[Bingle]

If I decide I'm going to shoot someone and they don't claim BP and they don't die they are necessarily scum, sure.

It's not like I'm not going to publicize my choice beforehand though, so they still get lynched tomorrow if that's the case.

[Bingle]

Bingle, did Rabid reveal he was a vigilante before he died?

I called him on it in the hood D1 shortly after claiming vengeful iirc. I think if Nero was scum he would've shot Rabid N1.

[Bingle]

I don't claim any particular ability to read Nero, but I think Nero scum would be more likely to kill RS after the vig claim when we were all agreed to act as if we were a pseudomasonry as scum than not. I don't think anyone fear kills FB in this list, Schnauser was also a pretty good "don't rock the boat kill" and given his soft in the main thread it wouldn't have raised any eyebrows.

[Bingle]

FL tends to hard defend scum buddies. He knows his biggest strength is working with a team to back him up.

[Bingle]

Wait what? Did Rabid claim vigilante in game thread or in neighborhood only?

He claimed confirmable on D3 in the main thread. All three of us claimed on the 10th in the neighborhood, although RS was actually last. I pretty much assumed he was a vig from the context of his softing, but apparently I didn't call him out on it.

I'm not sure if I should out Nero's claim or lackthereof at this point, but we have been coordinating some. Nero notably didn't try to steer the vig shot, despite the fact that RS asked for ideas and I gave him a list that included flavor.

[Bingle]

No he’s not conf town. There is no vengeful

I don't see how this is productive from any quarter seeing as mine is the only lynch I'll condone today.

[Bingle]

Anyway, point is that I have a provable town role. Note that it's novice, so I can't prove it until N2.

[Bingle]

Lynching me takes us off of evens. Odds>Evens. I don't have strong enough reads to care about staying alive.

We're totally lynching me.

Also, bob flip invalidates my reason for wanting a massclaim today.

Normals are required to have at least one VT and I felt it was likely there was only one VT.

[Bingle]

Bingle don’t you have to announce who you’re going to kill in case you hit BP?

Yeah, but I haven't decided yet.

If I were quicklynched right now, it'd be trq.

[Bingle]

Even assuming you're right on Nero,

your

setup spec makes him the wrong vengekill.

[Bingle]

tbf, your case sounds like it could be a thing. It's not impossible that I'm wrong and Nero just leaned into my setup thoughts in order to get a townread. I'm interested in what he has to say when he shows up, and I'll probably look at some games when I'm less incredibly bored by that proposition.

Still though, the symmetry of {Vig/Venge/BP Goon} makes too much sense for me to want to shoot there, so he gets a free pass til tomorrow on account of I want to actually use my role to take us off of evens.

[Bingle]

What if I said
You’d be alive tomorrow >_>

I don't see that as particularly useful, tbh.

I'm pretty shitty as an IC, and in this case I'm not even actually an IC. If we have a protective that can guarantee a slot lives, I'd prefer the soft inno of an unsuccessful kill be on someone who isn't literally incentivized to die in the unlikely case that a kill is stopped. It's best to get the distraction of my slot out of the way sooner than later.

[Bingle]

I don't want claims today at this point.

[Bingle]

was the plan to bet the game on you being right with your vengeful if there were still three mafia alive?

Yes. Basically, from a not me perspective, me claiming vengeful in MYLO means we get 2 shots at lynching scum instead of one. From a me perspective, it means I can use my role in the most protown manner while preempting the possibility of a scum quickhammer on someone I don't think is scum.

I'm 80% sure that vengeful fails on BP in normals because it's a kill and not a lynch, but it largely doesn't matter. If it doesn't fail on BP, then there's no way in a normal to stop my kill. If it does, then it not being claimed when I say I'll shoot them is a scumclaim. I'm going to claim my kill, and I have no reason to lie about it.

[Bingle]

Gobbles, who do you think is scum other than Nero?

[Bingle]

Nero Cain, Luna Fox, Robbnva, Garmr, Bingle, Not_Mafia,

2 scum in here likely.

@Bingle - if you’re town, I require your assistance.

I’m townreading most of that list, but moderately intrigued. Please, tell me more.

Then I think you’re just plain wrong, sorry.

Chkflip doesn’t go down without scum pushing them like that.

Based on this I'm comfortable saying NC/trq isn't the scumteam. In fact, I'd be confident saying that there is at most one scum here:

Chkflip (7) Nero Cain, Luna Fox, Robbnva, Garmr, Bingle, Not_Mafia, team rocket queen

[Bingle]

That's actually a fascinating vote count.

I could see gobbles scum, given he's approaching me today in the way that makes me least likely to shoot him. With that said, his approach is totally working and I endorse him continuing to be all solvey. I still want to hear from Nero slot before EoD and he's at/near prodrange so I'm content to wait for a little bit. I don't see myself shooting outside of NM trq barring strange circumstances at the moment.

No one else vote me until I'm ready, I don't want to be qh able.

[Bingle]

Bob should still be here. That’s bungle’s fault.

I don't regret that lynch at all.

[Bingle]

I could see gobbles scum, given

he's approaching me today in the way that makes me least likely to shoot him.

What about my play makes you think it could come from scum?

That part of your play. You're doing an excellent job of pocketing me, which doesn't necessarily make you scum but is something that scum you 100% wants to do in light of my claim.

[Bingle]

Eh. Tone down the ATE a moment, NC.

[Bingle]

I don't find NC's thoughts that it might be an all town hood suspicious, btw, and thought largely the same thing for most of the game. Even before corroboration that RS was town.

[Bingle]

Yeah, I get there's salt from past games. I really don't care if the two of you have beef because I know what I expect from both of you at this point in this game.

An emotional argument that we can't trust townRobb to win us LYLO doesn't really help me here though. (And yes, I kind of agree that he can't be trusted not to continue tunneling town right now, but my lynch should go a long way towards solving that assuming he is town.)

[Bingle]

Either way lying isn’t tolerated and it certainly isn’t a town trait.

It isn't a lie. It's his perspective of the events of that game. Given his post game comments, he does think the things he's saying and so they're not lies. Not helpful either, but :shrug:.

And there's obvious motivations as both town and scum. (Although the fight makes you unlikely as S/S)

[Bingle]

bingle - only makes sense to me that he's telling the truth

luna - i think calling me scum and then being swayed by ricks argument only makes sense as mafia if they planned on taking me into the late game, but this seems pretty plausible.

robb - probably town since the little remarks from rick meant to get a response from robb don't really make sense if they're partners and plan to keep sniping at eachother

nero - the strongest case to me is that he's in the neighborhood so by process of elimination mafia. i looked for the scumhunting in his iso as instructed and failed to find it, but i think that's true of a lot of players in this game.

garmr - makes sense as mafia with not mafia due to repeatedly misrepresenting the day one wagon in order to not include not mafia in the off the wagon category. otherwise probably town.

not mafia - i don't know. early on it felt like a playstyle thing that they were still communicating information via but recently all i've gotten from them is willingness to hammer anyone and 'luna scum'

gobble - it's nice to see someone trying to move the game, but i can't tell the motivation. i think town because the not moving felt frustrating, as we've been kinda demoralized since the end of day 1.

In a way, I think this is the best post this dayphase, actually. I disagree that garmr being focused on the TSE votecount order instead of the actual order of the votes is scum indicative, given that was what we were working from analysis wise on D2. RD was definitely talking about things using that list, and so that list is what should be used when analyzing what RD said, at the very least.

[Bingle]

It’s a lie cause I scum read him and voted him. I don’t know how anyone can skew that perspective

Nero believed you played poorly in the postgame of that game. In order for him to be lying now, he also had to be lying then. Lying isn't just about accuracy or inaccuracy, but also intent. Whether or not you were actually gamethrowing, it's clear he thinks you were, so it's not a lie. Whether or not he's right or wrong DOESN'T MATTER.

Can we not have multiple pages of fighting about completed games?

[Bingle]

Luna, I want to town read you, but your play around Nero looks really bad to me.

?

I think LF has had some of the most consistently town posting all game, and I'm interested in what you see as bad.

[Bingle]

Nero, check the hood when you get a chance.

[Bingle]

Sure, but your fight still isn't relevant to THIS GAME, and if town, you should realize that getting into a big fight about things that aren't relevant to THIS GAME is a great way to kill motivation in THIS GAME.

So I'd like to talk about THIS GAME instead of dirty laundry from other games. If you guys both want to discuss old news, feel free to do so (civilly) in the post game. As an outside observer without even a dead horse in the race, it might just be better if both of you avoid playing in games with each other in the future since you apparently don't get along and piss each other off.

[Bingle]

Eh.

[Bingle]

I had a similar role to NC's in 2013, but it was a lot more terrifying. Either the alt I was playing under or the game had a royal theme.

He has a circumstantial innocent result on garmr.

I've been debating whether to claim this for days, but as they say audentes Fortuna iuvat.

I intend to vengekill trq. trq, please claim in case that changes my mind.

[Bingle]

I still intend to shoot trq. I was not shooting there because of your thoughts, rob.

[Bingle]

Bingle, did Nero give any reason for targeting Garmr when he has announced like 0 suspicion of Garmr in his iso?

He asked who he should target, and Garmr was in the pools of targets from both me and RS.

Mine was was bob/garmr/chem, RS wanted Rick/Garmr.

[Bingle]

Not really, no. Like, I get the desire to say "He should have targeted RD" but that's hindsight bias and I was against targeting RD because I can usually read him well. Garmr was a solid investigation choice. Could be scum, could be town, didn't really leave a lasting impression either way.

I don't explicitly trust Nero at this point, but that's more to do with his absences than what he's done while here. Admittedly, I haven't done the work to check if his meta matches your representation of it.

[Bingle]

Yeah. He's been checked out for days. I should be going to look at Nero games to see if that's a scum thing from him like you say it is, but even if it is it doesn't really change my mind on what to do here. I seem to remember him being checked out in Under the Sea where he was town and RC's Anything UPick, but those are both crazy stale and I can't really muster the desire to go meta diving when I will be dead when that decision gets made.


As I see it, leaving his role intentionally vague here gives us three outcomes.

Nero scum is under a lot of pressure tomorrow.
Nero town gets nightkilled for fear of potentially being useful over the nightphase, resolving the slot for us.
Nero town may or may not have results tomorrow clearing/guiltying another player.

I'm not going to risk the BP scum Nero synergy to shoot him and garmr isn't high on the suspect list even without the inno, so I'm happy to let Nero maybe be useful tonight while going after another high contention slot.

[Bingle]

Weirdly accurate townreads from me this game.

Also, the hider guilty on Nero wasn't actually a guilty, FWIW. Hider is only untargetable to killing roles in it's normal role. The pseudo commuter is a variant hider.

[Bingle]

Since when can you put like 73 modifiers on roles in normals and since when was there stuff like simple?

Why aren't normals exactly like when I last played one like 3 years ago?

Roles which are explicitly Normal for any alignment include:
Bodyguard, Commuter, Sane Cop, Doctor, Follower, Gunsmith, Jack of All Trades, Jailkeeper, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Roleblocker, Rolecop, Rolestopper, Tracker, Universal Backup, Vanilla Cop, Voyeur, Watcher, Hider, Babysitter, Fruit Vendor, Psychologist, Detective, Visitor, Traffic Analyst, PT Cop, Alien, Encryptor, Mailman
Roles which are explicitly Normal for Town only include:
Vanilla Townie, Friendly Neighbor, Innocent Child, Mason, Miller, Vigilante, Vengeful, any roles listed as "for any alignment"
Roles which are explicitly Normal for Mafia only include:
Mafia Goon, Strongman, Traitor, any roles listed as "for any alignment"
Roles which are explicitly Normal for Serial Killer only include:
Serial Killer, Ninja, Strongman, any roles listed as "for any alignment"
Modifiers which are explicitly Normal for any alignment include:
Ascetic, Backup (with or without primary role present), Bulletproof, Enabler (with or without primary role present), Macho, Neighbor, Non-Consecutive Night, Weak, X-Shot, Ninja, Loyal, Disloyal, Loud, Multitasking, Informed, Activated, Indecisive, Compulsive, Simple, Complex, Combined, Announcing, any modifier restricting to a specific set of nights (e.g. Even/Odd Night, Night Specific, Novice)
Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector, Framer, Vanillaizer, Beloved Princess, Arsonist, Governor, Godfather
Modifiers which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Delayed, Percentage
Normal Games must use only approved roles, and can use any combination (so long as there is at least one Vanilla Townie) in conjunction with approved modifiers.
Roles may be hybrid roles, consisting of multiple roles, for instance, a Vigilante Cop. Such a role with multiple active abilities can use any one of its roles each night, and may have modifiers that apply to just one of its roles or to the entire hybrid role.
Any roles with private information (mafia roles, informed roles, etc) should flip without that private information. A Rolecop investigation of the same role should be similar, without alignment and without private information.
Games which are otherwise Normal may still be more suited to a different Queue. For example, a game with a large number of Doctors may be better run as an Open Game (after review in the Open Discussion Thread) or as a "Hospital" Themed Game.

Its pretty much been that since forever. There's been a couple additions/revisions, but the big one was getting rid of graylist roles in '16-'17.

[Bingle]

@penguinpower you can release the mafia pt. it's embarassing, but w/e. not going to ask to have all my posts redacted. thankyou for modding.

gg town

rick, you're a hero, sorry i ruined your streak.

I wouldn't be demoralized here, trq. This was actually a really solid PL despite the friction between slots and town did a great job of recognizing town. You played excellently once you had your sea legs, there just weren't a lot of viable mislynches in the game for you to go after.

I'd love to play with you again in the future, potentially as the same alignment!

[Bingle]

I think that's the first time I hit scum as vig.

Nice shot, btw. I think actually flipping FL was the turning point town needed, and once you got that the town win was inevitable.

[Bingle]

Thanks Penguin, thanks TSE, and thanks all for a great game.

TSE, I hope you learned a bit about modding so that you don't make the same mistakes next time (not including a sample VT PM, for example) and I hope to see you active again when your ban is up. Despite the drama, this was a pretty great game.

Also, if anyone is interested, I have a fairly easy Large Theme in the queue that's shy just a couple of players:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=82396

You'd get to play with cool peeps like gobbles and it should go faster than most larges.

[Bingle]

Technically? Yes. Good luck convincing a review team to pass that setup though.

The premade setups mostly fit what you'd expect of old Normals, though.