What is truly Bastard - and what is not?

[Ramcius]

Considering most people don't play optimally anyway, bastard is just same as regular game then?

[Ramcius]

pagetop lol

The difference between players not playing optimally and the game designed to be played sub-optimally is that if the players did play 100% optimally like they would in a normal game, they would lose.

Playing optimally in normal game doesn't guarantee a win, playing optimally in bastard doesn't mean loss, it only increase chance for it to happen. But that's all theoretical and let's be real, "optimal play" is a hoax, with limited information you can't reasonably find optimal plays, you can think optimal plays for what info you have, but it's not the optimal play

[Ramcius]

Here is how I define "Optimal Play"

Optimal play are the players playing as if they had all knowledge given by the moderator about the game, along with all events.

Then optimal play includes knowledge of game being bastard, so new optimal play is adjusted for bastard roles and bastard elements that can be present, so it's still an optimal play in the end, because you're choosing best play in given circumstances, you can't call it suboptimal

[Ramcius]

Here is how I define "Optimal Play"

Optimal play are the players playing as if they had all knowledge given by the moderator about the game, along with all events.

Then optimal play includes knowledge of game being bastard, so new optimal play is adjusted for bastard roles and bastard elements that can be present, so it's still an optimal play in the end, because you're choosing best play in given circumstances, you can't call it suboptimal

If the moderator lied to all players and it turns out that the town actually had to kill itself off to win, and the same with mafia, then the real optimal play radically changes. However, the players won't know about this because the moderator lied to them.

Bringing 1 example that doesn't apply to most bastard games doesn't prove your point at all

[Ramcius]

So most Bastard games don't have moderator lies?

Most bastard games don't have mod lies about everyone's wincons. So there will be only few players affected by mod lie about their wincon, would you play subpar just for slim chance that mod gave you fake rolecard and your wincon isn't what it says? Even if you play subpar and you got fake rolecard, you don't know what is your actual wincon is, so you might get screwed anyway. Cult don't even fit here - who would recruit you, if you play subpar?

[Ramcius]

This "optimal play" definition talk is confusing

Jester is bastard because town gets punished for lynching a scummy player. Town's wincon is to lynch all the scum, so them being punished for lynching a scummy player is bad. It turns town's wincon from "lynch all the people acting scummy" to "lynch all the people acting scummy, except for the person who is doing it intentionally". If a town member is playing to that first wincon, then they are playing badly, with no way to know that they are doing so until the Jester flips.

Let me stop you here - town's wincon isn't "lynch all scummy people", it's lynch all scum, which is very different as scum not always act scummy and town often act scummy

[Ramcius]

What is Scum then?

Non-towns, whose existence is preventing town from winning. Jester isn't scum, Jester's existence doesn't prevent town from winning

[Ramcius]

Let me stop you here - town's wincon isn't "lynch all scummy people", it's lynch all scum, which is very different as scum not always act scummy and town often act scummy

Yes, "scummy" wont always be scum, but im using the word here as most likely to be scum. if a person is the most scummy, they are the most likely to flip mafia, and as such should be lynched.

It's not most likely, it only works with new/bad scum players. Scum are more than capable of not being scummiest person in the game