Mini Normal 2139: No Flavor Allowed - Game Over

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: Atari as is tradition.

[LuckyLuciano]

Wagons are good. UNVOTE: Atari. VOTE: persivul.

[LuckyLuciano]

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

[LuckyLuciano]

Yet another page 1 hammer opportunity wasted.

[LuckyLuciano]

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

Yet another page 1 hammer opportunity wasted.

This is strange coming from you, Luciano. In the games in which we participated together, your instance at the beginning of D1 was always more logical and pragmatic. This sudden change with comic content is not something that the profile of your playstyle suggests, at least as far as I can see.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

That's funny considering you were in Newbie 1995 and yet you noted my "comedic content" in RVS.

UNVOTE: Persi. VOTE: Clidd.

[LuckyLuciano]

Me too.

[LuckyLuciano]

I have literally mirrored my opening to a game we both played in, where I was town, nearly post-by-post. You are scumreading me for doing literally the same thing you have seen me do before, as town. I was going to label this move, "calling out a player making up a reason to attack me that they know to be false". I supposed I will take you input into consideration, as "Advanced OMGUS" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

[LuckyLuciano]

That's unequivocally the worst interpretation of my interaction with Clidd possible. Scum-reading me for being comic in my opening, when he's seen me be comic in my opening before, is scummy.

[LuckyLuciano]

He's not scumreading me for copying my town game. He's scum reading me for being comical in my opening. My reaction in 36 isn't frustration, it's elaboration.

. Maybe rephrasing in italics will help Zulfy's eyes function properly.

[LuckyLuciano]

That's unequivocally the worst interpretation of my interaction with Clidd possible. Scum-reading me for being comic in my opening, when he's seen me be comic in my opening before, is scummy.

Why are you assuming I have a scumread on you ?

the image you gave in our past games is much more logical than joking with votes on a playerlist that you don't know (besides Hajimari). What triggered an *alert*, in my opinion, was the way you reacted to that, which would be totally different from the Town!Luciano perspective that I imagine.

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

Yet another page 1 hammer opportunity wasted.

This is strange coming from you, Luciano. In the games in which we participated together, your instance at the beginning of D1 was always more logical and pragmatic.

This sudden change with comic content is not something that the profile of your playstyle suggests

, at least as far as I can see.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

[LuckyLuciano]

If you are trolling you are doing a good job.

[LuckyLuciano]

@Clidd, Why did you unvote me?

@Zulfy, it's not frustration. I copied my town game for a reason. That reason will be revealed later in the game. At that point you will see clear town motivation for it. If you want to argue that it's scum motivated at that point, go for it. The only thing I'm frustrated about is your clear inability to think critically.

[LuckyLuciano]

I've had too long of a day to spend time listening to Zulfy

trying

to irritate me (yes, 50 shows that he wants to piss me off for no reason). I'll see you all tomorrow.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm making some fresh coffee. I'll catch up after.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm making some fresh coffee. I'll catch up after.

Are you done making that coffee yet?

It was a really big pot of coffee...

I actually just realized that it was best if I took a day off from mafia as a whole. I'm partway through a big catch-up post now, I just saw this and figured I'd let you guys know I'm still around.

[LuckyLuciano]

Spoiler: Lucky-Clidd-Zulfy Interaction

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

Yet another page 1 hammer opportunity wasted.

This is strange coming from you, Luciano. In the games in which we participated together, your instance at the beginning of D1 was always more logical and pragmatic. This sudden change with comic content is not something that the profile of your playstyle suggests, at least as far as I can see.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

This immediately threw me off because my first few posts were all a deliberate attempt to replicate one of my town openings. As I've mentioned before, I will explain

why

I chose this approach to the game when it becomes relevant. Just note for now that I wasn't looking to play

similar

to that game in my opening, but intentionally wanted to

replicate it post-by-post

. That's about as much of an explanation of my actions as is necessary at this point. Anywho, Clidd's reaction to my opening wasn't one that I expected from him, precisely because he has seen me do the exact things he's questioning. It's immediately obvious that he's faking an attack on me and I find that suspect, hence,

That's funny considering you were in Newbie 1995 and yet you noted my "comedic content" in RVS.

UNVOTE: Persi. VOTE: Clidd.

This post from Clidd indicated to me, at first, that I haven't reacted in a way that I normally would as town,

I'm waiting for your towntell.

Upon rereading, I can see it also could be interpreted to mean that he's performing a reaction test and hasn't gotten sufficient data from my response. I'm not sure how I feel about this interpretation, however, as I don't remember Clidd being a reaction-test sort of player in my previous encounters with him. I think my initial interpretation of his post goes more in line with his next post,

Another observation: the purpose of your post did not seem to clarify a misunderstanding, but to reverse the positions to make an attack. This is a classic scum mentality and you probably know that.

The presumption that I'm coming from a scum mindset doesn't cohere to the neutral starting point of a reaction test performed in good faith. It's also a misrep of what I did, hence my hyperbolic response,

I have literally mirrored my opening to a game we both played in, where I was town, nearly post-by-post. You are scumreading me for doing literally the same thing you have seen me do before, as town. I was going to label this move, "calling out a player making up a reason to attack me that they know to be false". I supposed I will take you input into consideration, as "Advanced OMGUS" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

I wasn't attacking Clidd for attacking me. I was attacking Clidd for attacking me on pretenses he knows to be false.

Zulfy comes in at this point and takes the worst stance possible, in that it misses every important nuance of my interaction with Clidd,

You're copying your town game so scum-reading you is scum?

This three-way interaction ends with me taking a break from the game, Zulfy disappearing after illustrating that all he really cared about was irritating me, and Clidd retracting and claiming he was intentionally misrepping me to analyze my reaction. This is pretty much where I'm at and everything else is going to be me catching up.

Spoiler: Klick's #59

Zulfy is making sense.
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Clidd's content is good so far, leaning town there.

Initially, I agreed with some of the other posts that this appears opportunistic / scummy,

scum reads on valoneast for the trying to play newb card, klick following zulfy reads as scum too.
I don't know whether to take hotoc seriously or not.

I'm undecided about clidd

vote: klick

Coming from the perspective of knowing Lucky for years outside of Mafia, his frustration reads to me as null-leaning town. He doesn't reach to insulting people unless theres something outside of the game that's bothering him.

Klick's push seems pretty opportunistic though.

VOTE: klick

Zulfy is making sense.
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Clidd's content is good so far, leaning town there.

Yucky post.

However, I think that Klick's post makes a lost more sense when put into context through some of his later posts. In particular,

Defensiveness and frustration isn't an alignment-indicative trait.

On their own, no.
Scum definitely hate being caught for the wrong reasons, though.

It's not about being reactionary - it's about what Lucky is reacting against.

At this point it has been well-established that clidd's initial claim about Lucky's early play wasn't accurate. Lucky reacted against that.
The question now is, was that reaction from Lucky-town who knows clidd used bad reasoning to come to an incorrect conclusion, or was it from Lucky-scum who knows clidd used bad reasoning to come to a

correct

conclusion?
I believe the evidence makes the latter likely. He's going 'what? this looks just like my town game!' That level of awareness of how you're playing like your town game would definitely come from scum. It wouldn't necessarily happen if one were town. Hence, I think leaves Lucky as >rand scum for the time being.

I think that the conclusions Klick arrives at are reasonable when I take into account that Klick's starting point is wrong. Most importantly, (1) I get defensive whenever I think a push against me is utter bullshit, as both alignments. (2) He's not wrong in that the level of awareness I've shown of my town game would be present if I'm scum. What he's missing is that there's town motive for that level of awareness, and I think that deliberately copying my own game post-by-post should show that I'm not looking to mimic a town mindset, but that there's something intentional going on behind the scenes. Klick's only experience with me was a brief replacing in at the end of D1 of one of my first game's onsite, and he quickly died N1. I'm not sure that Klick is aware that I have played mafia for nearly a decade offsite and how intentional most of what I do is. I understand how he reaches his conclusions not knowing that.

I think the way Klick left my wagon supports the idea that he knows he is making a lot of assumptions about my play, and that they could be wrong,

'Opportunistic' is a fun buzzword, especially early-game. I appreciate the insight on Lucky, though.
VOTE: Umlaut

I also really like that Umlaut essentially sees Klick's post the same way that I did, especially with how the path of least resistance is to paint Klick as scummy for their entrance to my wagon. Keep in mind that at the time of the following post, Cakez is trying to get Farside to help sort Klick,

Er, was going to say: I'm not sure I buy this case but I buy it as coming from town.

The problem I'm having is trying to cohere with his later scumreads on me. So he doesn't buy Klick's case, but believes I'm scum for different reasons, which he doesn't think are worth introducing to the discussion (98, 104, 107, 125

Spoiler: SirCakez' #82

VOTE: lucky
Hate his page 2

Clidd is trying way too hard

I'm starting a spoiler here because I feel that people should be suspicious of this post for the same reason they were suspicious of Klick's.

I don't like Clidd's response,

Actually, I haven't even come close to trying yet lol.

It feels to me like Clidd tried really hard to force a read through his reaction test, and then backed off when it failed. I agree with Cakez here and don't like (1) Clidd acting like he wasn't tryharding, and (2) Clidd saying "lol" which is immensely out of character.

VOTE: lucky
Hate his page 2

Clidd is trying way too hard

VOTE: cakez

I like this post, as it shows consistency with how Farside reacted to Klick doing the same thing earlier that Cakez is here.

Spoiler: We're back to talking about my opening

I don't know Luciano's metagame, so I'm not convinced by clidd's argument.
I don't have a problem with #36, but #48 seems off.

Luciano, you are copying a comical approach to RVS for a reason that will be revealed later, and will show clear town motivation?
The fact that you were willingly repeating town posts and then covering up by saying you have reasons which will later be revealed looks like scumtell to me.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I see your reasons, but for now I'm voting for you. Do tell me if I misunderstood your posts.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

This is really off-base with what I'm doing. It's not that I was

willingly

copying my town game. It's that I was

deliberately

and

obviously

copying my town game. I have said that there are town-motivated reasons to do this. You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately. I think that town is more willing to take people at their word when they bind themselves to doing something like I have, whereas scum is more likely to feel uncomfortable not knowing what town is planning and that discomfort, in my experience, tends to materialize in information-driven pushes.

Spoiler: Persivul's #144

This is the second opportunity since I've joined the site for a D1 lynch. Make it happen people! (I will not be posting for the rest of page one, in order to support the cause.)

Why do you want a page 1 lynch?

Why does anyone ever want a day one lynch? For the memes. As you have a long history of hating fake claims, I have a long history of not giving a flying fuck about day 1. On my old site I played for an extended period of time without even opening my role pm until N1.

Spoiler: Klick's 149

Lucky, is it normal for Atarashi to take people messing around at face value like they are here?

I think it's normal for him, as town, to try to move the game forward into a more serious state where we can properly solve.

Spoiler: Persivul

Another observation: the purpose of your post did not seem to clarify a misunderstanding, but to reverse the positions to make an attack. This is a classic scum mentality and you probably know that.

Didn't clarify a misunderstanding? He linked to a game you were both in, in which he was goofing around early, thus refuting your point. He ALSO made an attack, but there's nothing wrong with attacking someone who just made a false charge.

Not liking clidd.

Accurate.

I have literally mirrored my opening to a game we both played in, where I was town, nearly post-by-post. You are scumreading me for doing literally the same thing you have seen me do before, as town. I was going to label this move, "calling out a player making up a reason to attack me that they know to be false". I supposed I will take you input into consideration, as "Advanced OMGUS" rolls off the tongue slightly better.

You're copying your town game so scum-reading you is scum?

That's a misrep. Mirrored doesn't necessarily imply conscious intent.

Post 36 has you frustrated that copying your town game still has someone see you as scummy. What that Town Game is doesn't matter to me. Post 36 does, though.

Doubling down on the misrep.

That's unequivocally the worst interpretation of my interaction with Clidd possible. Scum-reading me for being comic in my opening, when he's seen me be comic in my opening before, is scummy.

@Clidd, Why did you unvote me?

@Zulfy, it's not frustration.

I copied my town game for a reason.

That reason will be revealed later in the game. At that point you will see clear town motivation for it. If you want to argue that it's scum motivated at that point, go for it. The only thing I'm frustrated about is your clear inability to think critically.

Forget the last couple of posts, apparently zulfy's interpretation was right.

Lucky, if you're town, why did you need to copy your town game for a reason? Wouldn't your normal play necessarily be your town game?

So first, relating the third post to the first two: I agree with the feeling on Zulfy, but disagree with the finer mechanics of what Persivul is saying. I

did

consciously intend to copy

a specific

town game. Persi realizes that Zulfy was right on this. That's not the misrep that Zulfy is making though. The misrep is that I'm claiming being scum-read for copying my town game is scummy. What I argued is that scum-reading me for pretenses that Clidd knows to be false is scummy.

As for the third post, yes, my normal play would necessarily be my town play. There's a benefit, however, to copying

that specific instance

of my town play. It'll make more sense later. Can we all just accept that, hold me to it, and move on?

Spoiler: Lucky's Opening: The Trilogy

I don't know Luciano's metagame, so I'm not convinced by clidd's argument.
I don't have a problem with #36, but #48 seems off.

Luciano, you are copying a comical approach to RVS for a reason that will be revealed later, and will show clear town motivation?
The fact that you were willingly repeating town posts and then covering up by saying you have reasons which will later be revealed looks like scumtell to me.

Maybe I'll change my mind when I see your reasons, but for now I'm voting for you. Do tell me if I misunderstood your posts.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

'Opportunistic' is a fun buzzword, especially early-game. I appreciate the insight on Lucky, though.
VOTE: Umlaut

Klick, I may have missed your reason to vote Umlaut. Can you explain why?

I'm going to call this scum

Farside, are you town? I really want you to be town.

This post was what pinged my vote. The long and the short is that the post read wishy washy.
There is no stance on it as a reason to vote Luciano and frankly it reads awkward as hell given the game state.
I usually see that from awkward scum.

Yup, either Farside is town or I think like mafia.

Spoiler: valoneast

Heard my name.

You guys are absolutely going at breakneck speeds here. I know the newb card will get me more flak, but I've been reading every post so far, trying to follow along. I mean, about 50% of the argument is linked to your prior game(s), which once again, I CAN'T CONTRIBUTE IN.

Not sure how you guys play your games, but when I've got something to contribute. I will.

Once again? Where did you say this the first time, in your mafia PT? Something about active lurking screams scum to me.

Must've missed the link then. But kudos for the heads up.

Just spitballing:

4. Hoctac - I absolutely hate this personality, claiming random shit. Making light of every situation. Generally, just shit disturbing the entire game.
6. Persivul - +1 for being friendly and slightly helpful? Though I'm not sure if this is out of frustration for my lack of game or not.
10. LuckyLuciano - Less scummy the more the game goes on. We'll see.
11. farside22 - One massive post, painting a picture of town to me, but still too early to tell.
12. Klick - Actually, the biggest scumread in my books. He's been bouncing around votes all day here. Seeing what sticks. Just bounces around in what I perceive as a random manner.
13. SirCakez - comes in and out of the conversation a couple of times, never posting anything relevant to the conversation.

How am I less scummy the more the game goes on if I literally stopped playing for two days? I also don't like the "I don't really know what to say in order to townread the guy calling me out, so I'll just give him a facebook like" townread on Persi.

Spoiler: Reundo

Aight, I'm here now. My thoughts on the game so far:

Clidd to me reads pretty obvious town. I didn't really jive with his early accusation of Lucky since it seemed pretty far-fetched, but it did spark a lot of conversation and he didn't let it drag on longer than he needed to, plus he seems thoroughly engaged with the game and has pretty solid reads so far. Umlaut similarly seems like he's actively game-solving with his questioning and commentary here and there, plus I thought his flip-flopping on Hoctac was pretty natural, although he's not as strong as a town-read. Klick I haven't agreed with a lot of his assessments, particularly his stance on Lucky and early SRing of Umlaut, but I do find it easy to see where he's coming from when he lays out his reasoning and reads a lot like an open book. I wasn't a huge fan of Pers early game but I think his catch-up looked towny albeit excessive, and I've agreed with most of farside's takes so far. valoneast is coming off more like newb!town than newb!scum to me so far, and I think his "spitballing" read pretty genuine, although it's not a strong TR atm. Hoctac's tone is pretty hard to read and I'm not quite sure when he's serious and when he's joking, I'm leaning towards him being lynchbaity town for the moment but I'm not putting much stock in that either.

I had early town pings from Zulfy through his interactions through Lucky/clidd thought looking back it wasn't as meaningful as I'd thought and I'd need more from him before I make up my mind. I thought this post from Cakez was kind of towny but otherwise I don't have a strong impression of him yet. Lucky's aggression to me did feel pretty towny at first and looked more like it came from town who was pissed at being misrepresented, but the first sentence of this post does ping me the wrong way. Most of the towny things I saw from Atarashi was their prodding of Hoctac, although I'm not putting a lot of stock in that rn because he's easy to criticize. Their content is OK but seems pretty fakeable by scum. I'm finding Ragman's content pretty underwhelming, and I'm not a huge fan of him prodding other's for their reads whilst not really giving out any himself. I thought this post felt almost like a repeat of valoneast's post (in terms of "I can't read y'all b/c you keep referring to other games", which I don't think is true anyways), and I'm not getting great vibes off of that either. I'm fine voting him for the moment.

VOTE: Ragman Saul Rima

I like this opening, especially calling out that Zulfy's interactions with me and Clidd were largely meaningless and only appear to look valuable. I feel the same way and am glad somebody called it out.

Lucky's aggression to me did feel pretty towny at first and looked more like it came from town who was pissed at being misrepresented, but the first sentence of this post does ping me the wrong way.

Just wondering why? That first sentence just seems like he's trying to use their logic and he's exasperated that people can't follow it.

Admitting to copying his past town game down to the exact post is pretty strange. The only reason it doesn't bother me more is because he claimed he'd reveal the town motivation for that later on, so I'm not too concerned about it atm.

Fucking finally.

Note²: Ragman, describe your reads on the playerlist.

It's too early for me to townread anyone atm, I don't know anybody's metagames.

Scumread: Klick, Luciano

Why is it too early for you to town read people but not to scum-read them?

By your logic, how would you know that say Luciano copying his town game wouldn't be something he usually does as town if you don't know his metagame?

Also, is there more to your Klick SR than him trying to dissuade SirCakez from voting him (ie how are you viewing his other posts)?

As quoted this, I was thinking it was a really good point. As I bolded it I kinda realized that it's sadly likely that a player concludes that copying town meta is scummy and is simultaneously too lazy to check if this is a consistent theme in my play. In other words, for me to find this in particular as a reason to scumread Ragman, I would expect Ragman to exhibit far more effort than he has so far. Do note, I don't think Reundo is scumreading Ragman in his attempt to seek clarification, and I like that from Reundo. It looks like he's sorting before making reads.

Spoiler: Page 11

Note²: Ragman, describe your reads on the playerlist.

It's too early for me to townread anyone atm, I don't know anybody's metagames.

Scumread: Klick, Luciano

Why is it too early for you to town read people but not to scum-read them? By your logic, how would you know that say Luciano copying his town game wouldn't be something he usually does as town if you don't know his metagame?

I'm okay with Luciano copying his town game regardless of whether it's his metagame or not. I found #48 scummy.
A good scum player can pass off as town, so that makes any of my townreads this early meaningless. If I knew about how people would respond as town in other matches, I can back my townreads with better reason. Even without knowledge of anyone's metagames, it is possible to find AI posts, so scumreading can be backed with more reason early on.

Ragman, I need you to describe your impressions on players in addition to your scumreads. I can't Infer anything from your post 221.

zulfy's and clidds' openings seem to me like genuine curiosity to find scum. I find Hoctac's ISO pro town. Persivul, farside and sircakez look neutral to me.

This feels odd to me. If good scum can look town, and therefore your townreads are useless, how are your scumreads valuable? In other words, if scum looks town, and town looks town, then how do you even have scumreads?

Also, I expected far more content when I made this spoiler so it's changing to "Miscellaneous" so that I have a place to put the following post that I've been saving,

Evidently, I am speculating according to my personal interpretation of him, so it is very likely that you will disagree with me. But I don't think it's so healthy to press his slot right now, because I feel it will be more beneficial if he has space to work with us in building reads, at least until we can evaluate him better, assuming he will live the transition from D1~D2 .

@Clidd, why are you assuming that I will die N1?

I'm most confident on Ragman/Clidd right now. I need to check the votecount real quick.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to keep my vote where it's at for now, but I support the Ragman wagon.

[LuckyLuciano]

On that note, I'm going to go make some more coffee.

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't like your lack of content, but here we are.

[LuckyLuciano]

Okay? Have you started reading what occured

before

you replaced in? If so, what are your thoughts? If not, how about you go do that?

[LuckyLuciano]

Im not really sure on the theory of mafia, but a quick D1 lynch isn't really town beneficial. I assume that you want to read people, see how wagon forms and such. You mentioned that you wanted a quick D1 lynch on post #14 and #26, so that causes for concern.

As the game's rolled on, it just sounds more and more like you took a shot in #36, where you mentioned that you've copied your town game, asking for an explanation how someone's thought process led you to believe that you were scum like. However this completely backfire as that argument itself made it scumesque. At this point I had a bit of scumread on you.

However, as I thought about it more and more, I realized that you were merely frustrated, and commenting on someone's argument of your "ploy" is actually quite logical, maybe executed poorly.

That makes sense. I'll correct you though and say that I wouldn't call my play a "ploy" and I wasn't expecting Clidd to attack it the way he did.

That

he attacked it, and

how

he did, I think is interesting, but I wasn't setting a trap for him. If I'm right to suspect him, then catching him was a happy accident that has nothing to do with my purpose in opening the way I did.

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

[LuckyLuciano]

@farside, it's slightly more nuanced than that. Clidd attacked my opening under pretenses that he knows to be false. He explained that it was a reaction test, but my experience with him doesn't lead me to believe that he's the reaction test sort of player. The timing in which he switched from pushing me to defending me lines up with when I called him out on knowingly making a false attack. I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith, and that he seems to believe that I will be killed N1. I'm pretty sure he's said in another game that he would kill me N1 if he was mafia, so him already thinking about that this game is concerning to me. It also requires him to assume that I am town, which doesn't align with reaction testing me, and his presumption of guilt when engaging in the reaction test.

[LuckyLuciano]

You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately.

I think this is the worry we all have, why bother revealing this idea anyways? Why not just NOT bring of this argument. IMO I think you were trying a new move and are genuinely frustrated that people are fixated on this idea that you had to "copy your town game to seem town" for whatever reason that is. Your past posts have been all about defending that, and you sound genuinely annoyed/frustrated. Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

It seemed easier to indicate that my posts were near-exact copies of my posts from a prior game that Clidd was in to illustrate the bad faith in his push.

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

Huh? Im not sure what you mean when you say Meta. But I think you're talking about my "theory"?

When I play mafia in real life, we generally just chat to see how people feel about each other, the idea is that since the mafia does know some information, they might lean heavier to one side or not, and the general public has no reason to lean any side at all.

I remember that playing in my first game here, but that was 7-8 years ago. What I don't understand are the terminologies. So I started this game quite quiet, as I couldn't contribute to people's playstyle, what "Advanced OMGUS" means and such. And I was genuinely confused as to how to even follow the conversation, let alone how to contribute to it. Leading to my little outburst.

Meta refers to a player's overall tendencies, beyond this particular game. The post I'm talking about is,

Heard my name.

You guys are absolutely going at breakneck speeds here. I know the newb card will get me more flak, but I've been reading every post so far, trying to follow along. I mean, about 50% of the argument is linked to your prior game(s),

which once again

, I CAN'T CONTRIBUTE IN.

Not sure how you guys play your games, but when I've got something to contribute. I will.

Emphasis on the bolded part. You never mentioned that you couldn't contribute to discussions about prior games before, so I'm trying to figure out what you meant when you said, "once again".

[LuckyLuciano]

Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

Where did you first hear the term breadcrumbing? And since you seem to think my breadcrumb is obvious, why not share it with the class?

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith

Why not? Isn't the point to see if any scum alarms get alerted when doing said reaction test? If you don't trigger it, then the assumption goes away? I'm confused about this.

If you are assuming that the person you are testing is scum, you are giving in to confirmation bias. This also ties back to Zulfy's post asking Clidd if there was any reaction I could have given that wouldn't lead him to arguing that I'm town. Clidd didn't seem to have a coherent idea of what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am town, and what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am scum. It felt more like he was scumpainting and he backed off when I called him out on it.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to keep my vote where it's at for now, but I support the Ragman wagon.

Why is this? Why not support the wagon by voting on it? I get that it would be L–1 but is that the only reason?

Nope, it's not the only reason.

[LuckyLuciano]

I feel like i did when i created a game where everyone had 2 votes that they could use to either vote a player twice or split their votes between 2 scum reads. If i could do that I'd vote for cakez too right now.

Talk to me about this read because I'm not seeing Cakez scum at all. He could certainly be efforting more (hey Cakez, you really need to effort more) but he just seems like low-energy town. His tone is pretty free and his impressions of the game look natural and unforced, and he's transparent about being sort of lost.

Cakez makes more of an effort typically. The lack of follow through and really good reads or free following thoughts are missing from him.
IE: this game not the typical town cakez.

I'm disengaged :/
Trying to effort more now

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.
I like Lucky's recent posts better. I think it's plausible that he just had foot in mouth.
Klick has done nothing to improve my read there so
VOTE: Klick

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

[LuckyLuciano]

Clidd, when have you ever seen me play scum? What's your basis for establishing a scum-range for me?

[LuckyLuciano]

So you have gone to great lengths to defend my reaction to your reaction test as town, based upon your experience with me... and then simultaneously argue that I could be scum... based upon your imagination..?

[LuckyLuciano]

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

?

You don't know how heavily I was targeted on my old site. I still talk to Atari outside of mafia on a daily basis. He's my DM in D&D. Scum!Atari would see the easy lynch on me and join it to rub it in my face later. Especially because he knows how much I hate getting misrepped. I only see scum!Atari defending me under some crazy pretense that the players in this game, with how poorly they've handled my opening, would then buy an offsite meta driven push against him after I flip green. I also think that scum!Atari prefers town!Lucky dead rather than alive. I see him defending me as having massive opportunity cost from his perspective.

[LuckyLuciano]

Yes, half experience, half pattern analysis/imagination.

This doesn't sound like you.

Anyhoo, can you explain why you assumed I would die N1?

[LuckyLuciano]

What made you think I am TPR? Feel free to discuss it, I think explaining your reasoning is more important than hiding my role.

Also, why did you feel the need to reaction test me in the first place? Was there something I said that indicated that it would be valuable for you to test me?

[LuckyLuciano]

That was directed at Clidd.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm going to assume that you didn't know that, but please don't answer questions I direct at other players.

[LuckyLuciano]

If you are assuming that the person you are testing is scum, you are giving in to confirmation bias. This also ties back to Zulfy's post asking Clidd if there was any reaction I could have given that wouldn't lead him to arguing that I'm town. Clidd didn't seem to have a coherent idea of what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am town, and what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am scum. It felt more like he was scumpainting and he backed off when I called him out on it.

Hmm okay, but don't you have to have a hypothesis first before testing it? When I go into any type of situation I would test against the null hypothesis.

Ahhh, so the fact that Clidd didn't seem to have what a "positive" and "negative" test would look like? That sounds 'bout right,

let me reread how his tone changes when he got called out on it.

@/u/fuckswithducks, have you done this yet?

[LuckyLuciano]

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

?

You don't know how heavily I was targeted on my old site. I still talk to Atari outside of mafia on a daily basis. He's my DM in D&D. Scum!Atari would see the easy lynch on me and join it to rub it in my face later. Especially because he knows how much I hate getting misrepped. I only see scum!Atari defending me under some crazy pretense that the players in this game, with how poorly they've handled my opening, would then buy an offsite meta driven push against him after I flip green. I also think that scum!Atari prefers town!Lucky dead rather than alive. I see him defending me as having massive opportunity cost from his perspective.

Ah okay you go into it here.
I'm not super convinced Atarashi would be that strongly inclined to never defend you in a SvT situation. A tell like that is begging to be broken.

Sure, now that I've vocalized it. That doesn't change its accuracy prior to him knowing about it.

[LuckyLuciano]

What made you think I am TPR? Feel free to discuss it, I think explaining your reasoning is more important than hiding my role.

Also, why did you feel the need to reaction test me in the first place? Was there something I said that indicated that it would be valuable for you to test me?

I noticed that you could be PR in the transition from posts 32 ~ 34 to 36, where your tone became more aggressive and started to mention in a more descriptive way the defense of your meta, demonstrating, in my opinion, that you had been bothered far beyond from the ordinary to a VT mentality. It's not an insult, but I think that when you take on a TPR role, you end up feeling more important than you are, which makes it easier for you to be offended/frustrated when someone presents any suspicious particle about your slot. That was my inference.

I felt the need to test your slot for two reasons:

1- If you're a scum, I don't want you to go to lylo (because from what I've noticed, your frequency of posts increases absurdly in the late game and is a threat)
2- If you are a town, I want to know early to work together (and use you to get a read on Hajimari, you know him better than me)

How do you think vanilla!Lucky reacts when people make bad plays?

Also, if you believe that I am more aggressive when pushed as TPR, why would you choose to test me by intentionally misrepping my play? Don't you think that your chosen approach is likely, on its own, to tick me off?

[LuckyLuciano]

Is it something you've never expressed to them, then? It seems basic enough in concept that I'd assumed you two had to have been in a situation where that would apply before.
Is the read backed by evidence? Does Atarashi consistently avoid townreading you when they're scum and you're town?

I have about 7 years of experience playing mafia with Atari. I'm not going to go too deep into my meta reading of his play, because without reading offsite games it's not going to enhance your understanding, but it will benefit him. Either you buy that I can read him or you don't. What's more important is that you understand that I have reasons for townreading the slot, even if Brass' play isn't helpful.

[LuckyLuciano]

That's funny considering you were in Newbie 1995 and yet you noted my "comedic content" in RVS.

UNVOTE: Persi. VOTE: Clidd.

I'm waiting for your towntell.

What towntell were you looking for?

[LuckyLuciano]

If you are assuming that the person you are testing is scum, you are giving in to confirmation bias. This also ties back to Zulfy's post asking Clidd if there was any reaction I could have given that wouldn't lead him to arguing that I'm town. Clidd didn't seem to have a coherent idea of what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am town, and what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am scum. It felt more like he was scumpainting and he backed off when I called him out on it.

Which post gave you that?

33, 35.

[LuckyLuciano]

Also, if you believe that I am more aggressive when pushed as TPR, why would you choose to test me by intentionally misrepping my play? Don't you think that your chosen approach is likely, on its own, to tick me off?

Yes, but this is not something that I worried about. Whether you are town or not was more important.

You thought that knowing whether or not I am town was of great enough importance that you were willing to take a course of action that you believed was likely to out me as TPR?

Would you say that my play is noticeably worse when I'm annoyed?

[LuckyLuciano]

That's funny considering you were in Newbie 1995 and yet you noted my "comedic content" in RVS.

UNVOTE: Persi. VOTE: Clidd.

I'm waiting for your towntell.

What towntell were you looking for?

Your next reaction. If you had a robotic instance in an argumentative sense, I would suspect that you would be trying to pretend to be calm. If you were irritated/frustrated or showed any chemical trace of emotion, it would be more evident that you were town.

What it my first reaction was robotic? I'm trying to visualize a flowchart of my possible reactions and where the possible scum reactions lie, because it feels like you are finding spots for them after the fact.

[LuckyLuciano]

Alright, it's clear that my views on Clidd are mine alone, so I'll table it and direct my attention somewhere more productive. UNVOTE: Clidd. VOTE: Ragman.

Now

it's time for L-1.

[LuckyLuciano]

Clidd, you would enjoy reading some of the intense flame wars I've had as mafia.

[LuckyLuciano]

Aww, but I enjoy playing with you!

[LuckyLuciano]

Upon reassessing, I see how and why Clidd saw me as TPR at the point he claims to have. The whole reaction test as a whole feels off to me still, but maybe it's

because

Clidd isn't really a reaction test sort of player, in my opinion, that when he does perform one it doesn't feel natural to me. Buying Clidd's interaction with me as town requires me to assume that Clidd made a logical oversight that is uncharacteristic of him, but I'm starting to see where exactly that oversight occurred and how it shaped his following posts. In short, I'm feeling more confident about town!Clidd at the moment.

Also, Clidd, your WIM really drops off when people disagree with you.

[LuckyLuciano]

Catching up now.

[LuckyLuciano]

Catch-up gets to be stream of consciousness this time.

UNVOTE: LuckyLuciano
I like Luciano's interaction in page 14 and 15.
I never considered the possibility that he could have a town power role. I retract my opinion on #48.

VOTE: Klick

I don't like Ragman's return answering none of the concerns levied against him. I especially don't like his movement from me to a tied wagon (making it the second largest), when his reasoning for voting Klick could equally be applied to me,

@Ragman, what are you scum-reading Klick for other than what you mentioned when you first posted?

Too many townreads, I don't see where the confidence is coming from to give farside, sircakez a strong townread so fast. clidd went from good townread (#211) to mild scum (#355), though I believe he made no scummy posts in between. I went from neutral (#175) to scum (#211) though I didn't post in between. I'm thinking it's scum sheeping farside.

Like, if he wasn't talking specifically about Klick, I'd think he was talking about me.

[LuckyLuciano]

Also, I'm retracting my meta-based town read on Atari's slow (Brass).

[LuckyLuciano]

EBWOP: Also, I'm retracting my meta-based town read on Atari's slot (Brass).

[LuckyLuciano]

accusing several people in parallel without developing any of the scumreads is a scummy instance

In Hoctac's case, the reasons he gave look innocent to me. As if he was solving from a town perspective. The varying levels of scum calculated in terms of degrees looks like excessive paranoia, is all the more reason for me to TR him.

So not having townreads is a methodology that comes from a town mentality to you ? What if I said that it would make it difficult to find associations with his slot in the scenario where he's lynched and the flip is scum ? It is very easy to act like that as scum to gain credibility in the game, as it is basically wifom in its purest state.

Tell me how town reading based on posts can't be WIFOM sometimes in D1. It strengthens my view on how my TRs are meaningless this early.
That being said, I would like to hear a complete read list from Hoctac. His posts still give me town vibes, but I agree with what you are trying to achieve.

So... can you answer my earlier question?

If good scum can look town, and therefore your townreads are useless, how are your scumreads valuable? In other words, if scum looks town, and town looks town, then how do you even have scumreads?

[LuckyLuciano]

Day 1 VC #14

Umlaut (0):
clidd (0):
Hoctac (0):
Zulfy (1): Umlaut (380)
Persivul (0):

Ragman Saul Rima (4) (L-3): Persivul (172), Reundo (190), Klick (211), LuckyLuciano (358)

valoneast (0):
brassherald (0):
LuckyLuciano (1): Zulfy (38)
farside22 (0):

Klick (5) (L-2): Hoctac (135), SirCakez (292), Ragman Saul Rima (405), farside22 (411), brassherald (413)

SirCakez (0):
Not Voting (2): valoneast (274), clidd (381)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch a player.

This phase will end on May 19, 2020 1:00 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2020-05-19 13:00:00).

Moderator Notes

1. If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2. This game will use a combination of manual and automated votecounts. (The automated ones are made using MathBlade's Vote Scrubber.) I will mainly start by posting an automated votecount and then edit in a manual one later. This allows me to spot errors in the automated votecount as well as build the voting history for the game.
3.

Please note the prod timers. You will be prodded after 32 hours on Tuesday-Friday.

4. Seeking a replacement for Klick.

VOTE: Ragman Saul Rima

Better wagon than Klick.

I'm going to say that one of the two players that jumped from Ragman to Klick has to be mafia if Ragman is mafia. Given my townread on Farside, and the opportune time of Brass' switch, I'm going to say it's probably Brass. I agree with Umlaut here, and feel like the Klick wagon at this point is a lot of forced nothingness.

[LuckyLuciano]

GLHF.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Hoctac

for ~reasons~

@Quick, were you following the game prior to replacing in?

[LuckyLuciano]

Okay, I have probably skimmed like 20 posts.

I have good feelings about Percivul.

I take this, being 4 minutes later, to mean that the answer to my last question is "no". Congrats Quick, in the blink of an eye you took all of the reasons I have to believe is town, and you have replaced them with a massive pile of, "Who told you to vote Hoctac immediately upon replacing in?"

[LuckyLuciano]

You have strange feelings then, but nevermind.

Klick's exit here is probably emotional, so I think he's town.

Replacing out is always NAI. Don't try to read into it.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm a novice PR so I didn't want to play TOO obvtown and take the N1 kill, and I got nervous when hoctac made that post showing how townie I had been and so I backed off.

I don't know how I feel about a 5-year old account self-declaring as a novice.

[LuckyLuciano]

Really sorry. You got robbed. Sorry again.

???? What even is this post ????

[LuckyLuciano]

Okay, I have probably skimmed like 20 posts.

I have good feelings about Percivul.

Yeah I'm fucking obvtown this game.

Really not liking this vibe.

[LuckyLuciano]

Shouldn't we wagon Zulfy ? He's hardcore lurking and he did the same thing in our past game, which he was scum.

+1

[LuckyLuciano]

How dare players ask you to make more then surface level post?? Thats not rude.

Asking isn't. Ordering is. "Do more" isn't a request, it's an order. I don't do orders.

Why is you activity at this point in the game capable of being described, in whole, as reasons why you aren't doing anything?

[LuckyLuciano]

How dare players ask you to make more then surface level post?? Thats not rude.

Asking isn't. Ordering is. "Do more" isn't a request, it's an order. I don't do orders.

Read emjoi

Is there some rule on encryption or speaking english only? I don't read teenager. Is this a threat? A warning? Somebody born this century fill me in please.

[LuckyLuciano]

Shouldn't we wagon Zulfy ? He's hardcore lurking and he did the same thing in our past game, which he was scum.

This is bad. You're not voting currently. Just vote him. Why are you asking permission to start a wagon?

At least when you do produce content, it's a solid

+1

.

[LuckyLuciano]

Wagon on Persivul probably collapsed because Town has no idea what they are doing and everyone just hopped on the next wagon.

Wagon on Persivul collapsed because kids these days don't know a good meme when they see it.

[LuckyLuciano]

I find it very hard to buy a scum read based on Zulfy just not being here. I'm not expect all of you to drop your entire lives for this game.

When. Are. You. Going. To. Start. Playing. The. Fucking. Game?

[LuckyLuciano]

I will probably ignore 3 slots until I can focus again. I don't want to be rude.

You're weird this game.

[LuckyLuciano]

Luciano, are you there ? I would like your opinion on some matters. I'll be home in 4 hours.

Fire away, if they are still relevant.

[LuckyLuciano]

Klick's exit here is probably emotional, so I think he's town.

This is a very strange claim and I need you to explain where you are getting it from. What would Klick have reacted to emotionally?

It's Clidd's meta that after a certain game where he replaced out as town due to frustration, anytime

any

replacement

could

be emotionally driven, he townreads it.

[LuckyLuciano]

I will probably ignore 3 slots until I can focus again. I don't want to be rude.

Seeking a replacement for Persivul.

I will probably ignore 3 slots until I can focus again. I don't want to be rude.

2 slots now.

I will say though, the low-key personal shade has me cracking up.

[LuckyLuciano]

Ame replaces Persivul.

As a general notice, my rules request that players do not discuss replacements for any reason.

Uh oh, I've discussed replacements in order to tell people not to discuss replacements.

Spoiler:

[LuckyLuciano]

I take people calling the Persi wagon RVS garbage personally. My meme had a dream.

[LuckyLuciano]

Seeking a replacement for Persivul.

Ame replaces Persivul.

As a general notice, my rules request that players do not discuss replacements for any reason.

Would you look at who it is. Heads up for everyone else:

Ame relishes in playing scum, so she only replaces into slots she hard scumreads after ISOing them in the replacement queue. Just some food for thought.

She got a hard scumread on Persi in a 5xx post game, and messaged the mod she wanted to join, and got replaced in, all in 25 minutes?

[LuckyLuciano]

By the way, likely to be away for a few hours, now, since people seem to be pretty obsessed with posting hours here. Have a few telephonic arbitrations to take care of.

It's actually kinda sad that I understand how this post feels necessary.

[LuckyLuciano]

Seeking a replacement for Ragman Saul Rima.

Is anyone on the original playerlist going to be in the game by the time I finish catching up?

[LuckyLuciano]

Okay, flip me. Then you can read all my posts for associations. How does that sound?

This sounds large warning bells for me. The way we play, the Matyr defense is scum! or newb!. Usually only because in RL you're not given as much time to come as something on the spot. But reading his posts up to this point, I find it hard to imagine this being newb!Quick.

Agreed.

[LuckyLuciano]

Why a town read [on Quick]?

He just reinforced my scum read. He basically voted on lynch bait material and a player that is mia. Calls pers town and said nothing that says hey im scum hunting

I mean, I agree Pers/Ame is town so.

I just like his posts so far. I didn't really think Klick was scum in the first place, and while I don't exactly want to lynch Hoctac right this second I think it's a legitimate slot to be suspicious of. The rapid-fire-post catchup looks like legitimate reading in and not like someone who's hyperconscious of how they look.

But it does look... directed? I think that's the way I'm reading Quick's catch-up phase. It feels like he knows where he wants to end up before he even starts the process of getting there.

[LuckyLuciano]

I am an Informed Towie and now I am dead. Congrats for ruining the game.

INFORMED TOWNIE

Okay, is that clear enough for you?

Lol.

[LuckyLuciano]

Well, here's the thing: Atarashi, valoneast, and I are in a neighbourhood together. Klick is NOT in this neighbourhood. He is asking us because he knows we may have an opinion of valoneast formed from discussion in the hood, but has NO reason to be aware of this fact. Zulfy is also in this hood.
What this means is that Qlick is scum with one of Zulfy, Atarashi, or valoneast, and subconsioulsy let slip that he was aware of this info. The only other explanation is that he's an Informed Townie, that was for some reason aware of the hood, but is that even Normal? Probably not.

I skipped this post because I haven't found much value in anything Hoctac's said so far. I'd agree that one of the 3 players in the hood are mafia. Valoneast being in the hood explains the whole "AGAIN" thing earlier feeling like he's been participating in a PT and makes me feel much better about his slot. I'd say one of Zulfy / Atari are scum. Brass has been useless, and Zulfy's only contribution was a deliberate attempt to frustrate another player.

[LuckyLuciano]

Actually I want to see Quick's own response before I chime in. (I know the case is entirely on Klick's posts but there is something specific I'd like to see or not see before I make my post)

Yeah, the thing I was going to wait on Quick's response for was that Informed Townie with knowledge of a neighborhood is as far as I can tell totally Normal.

If Quick were scum there is a possibility he would be unsure about that and not want to make that claim, which would make life harder for him. Since he did make that claim I suppose that didn't work, but I can see the post Hoctac calls out as more likely as a crumb than a slip.

Can people more familiar with the set-up trends on Mafiascum tell me if this sort of thing is normal? I'm feeling uneasy about Umlaut knowing that Quick was going to claim informed.

[LuckyLuciano]

So you think he's town now?

LOL.

This looks sketch to me. If Hoctac is mafia, he's not ruining the game. Why is Umlaut's post disagreeable from a town!Quick perspective?

[LuckyLuciano]

Quick!!!!!!!!!1 Do you townread or scumread me? Answer please.

I don't have a read on you. You are Null, just like you want to be. Congrats.

Yeah, Quick's take on the Hoctac slot doesn't vibe at all with his reaction to Hoctac casing him by outing the Hood.

[LuckyLuciano]

Spoiler:

I am an Informed Towie and now I am dead. Congrats for ruining the game.

INFORMED TOWNIE

Okay, is that clear enough for you?

Yeah, the thing I was going to wait on Quick's response for was that Informed Townie with knowledge of a neighborhood is as far as I can tell totally Normal.

If Quick were scum there is a possibility he would be unsure about that and not want to make that claim, which would make life harder for him. Since he did make that claim I suppose that didn't work, but I can see the post Hoctac calls out as more likely as a crumb than a slip.

Congrats, Hactoc is the smartest person to ruin a game................

So you think he's town now?

LOL.

What's with this then? You're talking about me like you know I'm town, saying I "ruined the game", but then suggest you're scumreading me in that last post. I think you forgot you were supposed to be scumreading me, didn't ya?

The mOmEnT oF bRiLlIaNcE award is still on the cards!!!£"24

100% this.

[LuckyLuciano]

I am an Informed Towie and now I am dead. Congrats for ruining the game.

INFORMED TOWNIE

Okay, is that clear enough for you?

Yeah, the thing I was going to wait on Quick's response for was that Informed Townie with knowledge of a neighborhood is as far as I can tell totally Normal.

If Quick were scum there is a possibility he would be unsure about that and not want to make that claim, which would make life harder for him. Since he did make that claim I suppose that didn't work, but I can see the post Hoctac calls out as more likely as a crumb than a slip.

Congrats, Hactoc is the smartest person to ruin a game................

So you think he's town now?

LOL.

What's with this then? You're talking about me like you know I'm town, saying I "ruined the game", but then suggest you're scumreading me in that last post. I think you forgot you were supposed to be scumreading me, didn't ya?

The mOmEnT oF bRiLlIaNcE award is still on the cards!!!£"24

He's just lying and making it out like your at fault.
Again the "informed townie" can be just scum with a member of the scum member in your neighborhood. So don't buy what he is selling, that kool aide be poise.

I am so glad you are wrong about your read on me because that makes you Town.

But flesh out you vote.

???

[LuckyLuciano]

Well, here's the thing: Atarashi, valoneast, and I are in a neighbourhood together. Klick is NOT in this neighbourhood. He is asking us because he knows we may have an opinion of valoneast formed from discussion in the hood, but has NO reason to be aware of this fact. Zulfy is also in this hood.
What this means is that Qlick is scum with one of Zulfy, Atarashi, or valoneast, and subconsioulsy let slip that he was aware of this info. The only other explanation is that he's an Informed Townie, that was for some reason aware of the hood, but is that even Normal? Probably not.

So your whole vote scum!tell is that Quilick (I like this!) asked two what seemingly seems random players as to why they shouldn't vote me (the third player). And you think he scumslipped because a scumbuddy of his that's in our neighbourhood let him know that us four are in a neighbourhood?

Plausible, but doesn't that seem like such a careless play?

VOTE: Hoctac

There's at least one of the scum in the neighborhood. I've been trying to engage and literally just pointed out don't out the neighborhood's existence, because we are neighbors, not masons. Talk to me, etc.

I also pointed out that despite his scummy behaviors his first post in the Neighborhood is saying he's got another PR. No prodding, he just comes in with it.

I was trying to work a little bit there to get information, but, at this point only one of them is even engaging me and the other reacted right after I pointed out we weren't confirmed town and should consider it but not lynch a claimed bigger PR day 1 by going ahead and ignoring me.

Also, the only reason he tells everyone in the neighborhood he is a PR in the first post are the old scum or dumb, and this is now scum, not allowed to be dumb.

I find myself agreeing with Hoctac's play, even the unprompted PR out. I feel like I live in a different world since my last catchup.

[LuckyLuciano]

I'll vote wherever farside votes

[post=brass]brass[/post]

I'm just quoting this fail to immortalize it.

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: Hoctac

There's at least one of the scum in the neighborhood. I've been trying to engage and literally just pointed out don't out the neighborhood's existence, because we are neighbors, not masons. Talk to me, etc.

I also pointed out that despite his scummy behaviors his first post in the Neighborhood is saying he's got another PR. No prodding, he just comes in with it.

I was trying to work a little bit there to get information, but, at this point only one of them is even engaging me and the other reacted right after I pointed out we weren't confirmed town and should consider it but not lynch a claimed bigger PR day 1 by going ahead and ignoring me.

Also, the only reason he tells everyone in the neighborhood he is a PR in the first post are the old scum or dumb, and this is now scum, not allowed to be dumb.

Did you not see my theory? One you is scum with Qlick, why would I not out the neighbourhood at that point?

Is that a chainsaw I hear? Surely it can't be

that

easy.

[LuckyLuciano]

I think brass is a good candidate for scum in this apparent hood

Agreed. It's always either Brass or Zulfy. Maybe both.

[LuckyLuciano]

Hi, I am not Klick.

Yes you are. The constant dismissing of any read against your predecessor as them not being you is sketch.

[LuckyLuciano]

Paragraphs, Mr. Clidd. Paragraphs.

QFT.

[LuckyLuciano]

Upon reassessing, I see how and why Clidd saw me as TPR at the point he claims to have. The whole reaction test as a whole feels off to me still, but maybe it's

because

Clidd isn't really a reaction test sort of player, in my opinion, that when he does perform one it doesn't feel natural to me. Buying Clidd's interaction with me as town requires me to assume that Clidd made a logical oversight that is uncharacteristic of him, but I'm starting to see where exactly that oversight occurred and how it shaped his following posts. In short, I'm feeling more confident about town!Clidd at the moment.

Also, Clidd, your WIM really drops off when people disagree with you.

How many players on the player list do you feel you know intimately? Or as intimately as you know Clidd and Atarashi?
I know Clidd and Atari pretty well. I had a brief interaction with Klick. He basically immediately died after replacing in. I played with Cakez once but was pretty detached from the game myself. Everyone else is new to me.

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: Hoctac or LuckyLuciano

This conclusion, at this point in the game, coming from the Riga slot does the slot no favors.

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: Hoctac

for ~reasons~

No one is going to join me on Hactoc so I will go somewhere else.

This seems spicy enough I guess...

VOTE: Zulfy

What were your "~reasons~"? Also, if you're informed that there's scum in the neighborhood, why would you back down when there's resistance to your target?

The first rule of fight club is you do not talk about fight club.

1. Atarashi sub informed me they didn't want to vote there when I asked them, "Do you have any good reasons not to vote there?" before he disappeared.
2. One Scum AT LEAST in the Neighborhood so I thought I would pick someone else from there that I could see as Scum.

Then Atarashi slot disappears. Then Hactoc makes the worst post of the game if they are Town and an even worse posts if they are Scum and the rest is history.

See, here's the thing. Let's assume Quick is informed town and he knows the neighborhood immediately. How does he so quickly come to the conclusion that he should vote Hoctac, before reading the game? He just randomly chose a member of the hood and happened to come across a scum read of that player as he caught up? Nah, I don't buy it. Quick is mafia fam.

[LuckyLuciano]

Spoiler:

TRs on Valon, Lucky, farside (she doesn't push me here as scum I think), Hoctac (I think his lack of caring about people's reads on his playstyle is town), Ame/Persivul
Nullish on Looker/Ragman, Reundo (these people don't have enough content or I'm unable to read what they have)
Scumlean on Zulfy, Umlaut
SRs on Quick/Klick, maybe brassherald/Atarashi dependent on meta

Don't like Umlaut's Persivul push. He's attacking Pers for things that are NAI.
I hate the composition of the Ragman wagon.
Quick's entrance not helping my read on the slot.
Persivul is rude but probably a town slot from his final reactions before getting the boot.
My Zulfy read is sinking the longer he goes without posting.
Will definitely be keeping a close eye on Ame after Hungarian 2

Where is clidd ?

Cakes put you on ignore.

Zingggggggggggggggggggg

[LuckyLuciano]

Tryna get a feel for the game-state but maybe I just have to read the whole thing. Any chance someone can tell me the big stuff?

You can't put someone on ignore in a mafia game even if they're on your foe list.

If quick wasn't obvscum, you'd be a great gamestate lynch.

[LuckyLuciano]

I have a surprise for NP.

You aren't making it to NP fam.

[LuckyLuciano]

How in the world is Quick only on 2 votes?

QFT.

[LuckyLuciano]

I would assume so since that is what my role PM says.

Wait, I just realized this, your PM literally says. "There is at least one Scum in the hood", paraphrasing obviously. That's your role?

... If so I take back my 70% math calculation, I must've looked like an idiot for saying that.

@Hoctac: Who is in your neighborhood?

Atarashi, valonhost, zulfy.

Correct.

Wait, is this all part of your information? You were informed that there is a neighborhood consisting of Hoctac, Atarashi, valoneast, and Zulfy,

and

that one of them is scum? Is there anything else you were informed about?

Why is this a thing? Quick never said his informed said there is a scum in the hood. Look at the post Valoneast quoted, and the post Quick was responding to in that post.

[LuckyLuciano]

I mean maybe I do want your slot dead a little because I'm sick of the gifs and also because I despair of ever sorting you decisively short of that. You'd be a better cop target or something though.

Hot take, Umlaut + Klidd scumteam, Klidd is godfather.

P.S. It seems that people say "hot take" on this site universally to indicate that what follows is a horrible take.

[LuckyLuciano]

This game's been moving a lot faster than I anticipated, and the constant replacements aren't really helping with that. I'll be around for a while now at least.

I've been thinking about the Klick/Quick slot for a while and at this point I'm leaning more town than scum. I find myself having to make less concessions when analyzing their play from a town perspective rather than a scum one. Like I'm not sure why Klick would want to make post 150 as scum anyhow. It wouldn't really help for town-cred since if anything it'll draw even more suspicion (questions like "why ask Atarashi/Hoctac in particular?"). Calling out them in particular seems very deliberate, and it'd be a pretty notable lapse of judgment for him to go the extent of almost pretending to be an Informed Townie himself and forget he wasn't supposed to know about the neighborhood. Otoh I think it's plausible that town!Klick would either want to give a heads up to the neighborhood or leave a crumb that he is informed (though leaving out Zulfy does hamper this theory slightly). Quick's first vote on Hoctac would make sense if he did indeed know there were scum in the neighborhood, as does his later vote on Zulfy (though I don't entirely follow the progression there), and his earlier paranoia about whether or not Klick claimed also coincides with his later reaction when Hoctac essentially forced him to claim. They could just be happy coincidences and things just happened to line up in his favor, but I'm not seeing it. I do have some issues with Quick's ISO, primarily his weird interaction with SirCakez and him ignoring basic questions about his role this past page (and as far as Klick goes, I did read a part of his scum ISO and realized he had a wider scum-range than I realized), but overall I'm not that concerned about him at the moment.

I wouldn't say Quick has ignored questions about his role. He's been absent since the questions appeared. Also, I still don't see how town!Quick immediately gravitates towards a Hoctac vote over any other member of the hood, especially given that he hadn't read any content yet. I think you have to make far more concessions to say that Quick RNG'd his eventual scumread, and found him scummy every step of the way as town than as mafia.

[LuckyLuciano]

If this was partition mafia and there was a group consisting of {Brass, Zulfy, Quick, Looker, Hoctac}, that group would be lynched and hit at least 2 mafia.

[LuckyLuciano]

Lucky stop spamming jeez
gather your thoughts in one or two posts, you literally just posted by yourself for two pages

But Clidd insists that a player's post count variations between games is a legitimate meta read so I had to get back into my town range before Clidd applies that read to my slot.

[LuckyLuciano]

I actually kind of dislike this megaspam from Lucky
I find it tends to be a scum tactic often (like "I made a lot of "content" therefore i'm town"

Oh, you already figured me out.

[LuckyLuciano]

If this was partition mafia and there was a group consisting of {Brass, Zulfy, Quick, Looker, Hoctac}, that group would be lynched and hit at least 2 mafia.

ofc those are the five most suspected slots universally
what's the point of this post?

It's just contextualizing my views. I think one of Hoctac and Quick is always scum. I think if town!Hoctac, then one of Brass and Zulfy is always scum. I think if town!Quick, Looker is most likely scum.

Anyhoo, I'm all caught up, so VOTE: Quick.

[LuckyLuciano]

Had to do a double check back to Hungarian Music where I played with Cakez and we were both town. I remembered my initial catchup post being a chain-of-consciousness spam and he didn't have a problem with it there, so him having a problem with it here pinged me. In that game ~3 other players were active at the time of my spam so it looked less spammy even though it was equally spammy. That makes him not liking my catch-up here NAI. However, I noticed something he did there that he's done here that I think is really nuanced and possibly a town tell that I need to verify against his scum games. @Cakez, can you link me one of your scum games so I can confirm that I've found a town tell from you? Thanks.

[LuckyLuciano]

I did a quick skim of your ISO, thank you for providing that game. Sample size is small, but the nuance that I saw both here and in Hungarian Music that looks like a towntell did not appear in that scum game, and the way you interacted with people in the scum game leads me to believe that it wouldn't appear in your scum games. I might do more research on it later, but I'm catching up elsewhere atm and you're a townread on me anyway independent of the new possible towntell.

[LuckyLuciano]

Yeah, probably. So let's lynch Quick, flip him

red

and pretend it clears you.