Mini Normal 2139: No Flavor Allowed - Game Over

[Klick]

VOTE: Umlaut

I dunno about the Persivul wagon, but this is scum regardless.

[Klick]

Zulfy is making sense.
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

Clidd's content is good so far, leaning town there.

[Klick]

Defensiveness and frustration isn't an alignment-indicative trait.

On their own, no.
Scum definitely hate being caught for the wrong reasons, though.

[Klick]

Defensiveness and frustration isn't an alignment-indicative trait.

On their own, no.
Scum definitely hate being caught for the wrong reasons, though.

Town doesn't think a player is scummy for trying to paint them as scum for something they do as town?
Since when?

That sort of self-centered mindset comes more from scum than town in my experience.
Is being wrong a scumtell?

[Klick]

It's not about being reactionary - it's about what Lucky is reacting against.

At this point it has been well-established that clidd's initial claim about Lucky's early play wasn't accurate. Lucky reacted against that.
The question now is, was that reaction from Lucky-town who knows clidd used bad reasoning to come to an incorrect conclusion, or was it from Lucky-scum who knows clidd used bad reasoning to come to a

correct

conclusion?
I believe the evidence makes the latter likely. He's going 'what? this looks just like my town game!' That level of awareness of how you're playing like your town game would definitely come from scum. It wouldn't necessarily happen if one were town. Hence, I think leaves Lucky as >rand scum for the time being.

[Klick]

'Opportunistic' is a fun buzzword, especially early-game. I appreciate the insight on Lucky, though.
VOTE: Umlaut

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

I thought Umlaut's page 1-3 content was fairly scummy, but I like his more recent posts.

[Klick]

not crazy about Klick's ISO. three "serious" vote hops already.

Do you think scum are more likely to switch their vote around early than town?

[Klick]

hoctac related to Hectic?

I'm like 98% sure Hoctac is just Hectic. New obvious alt player, same personality, similar name.

[Klick]

Lucky, is it normal for Atarashi to take people messing around at face value like they are here?

[Klick]

At this point I have some form of town lean on Zulfy, Umlaut, clidd, farside and SirCakez.

VOTE: valoneast
Atarashi/Hoctac: tell me why I shouldn't vote here.

[Klick]

VOTE: Persivul

Because wagon.

This was the most awkward vote on your wagon imo.

VOTE: LuckyLuciano

I didn't like the way he hopped onto the wagon (though I couldn't really put my finger on why not), and I don't like this last post.

Right now I can see that Umlaut is pressing on something he thinks is actually readable, but at the time it felt like he was derailing what could have been a pretty informative early wagon on you.

Umlaut already trying to derail the quickly growing wagon on his scum buddy.

Page 1 solve: Persivul + Umlaut

Damn you're good, game over folks.

The three scum are Persy, me, and me again

Weird deflection/downplaying in response to an early accusation - it read as not quite knowing how to handle the situation.

The three of those all looked pretty weird to me at the time.

[Klick]

At this point I have some form of town lean on ... and SirCakez.

Why do you have a town lean on SirCakez?

Umlaut already trying to derail the quickly growing wagon on his scum buddy.

Page 1 solve: Persivul + Umlaut

Damn you're good, game over folks.

talk to me farside

How about less vague stuff. Other scum reads? Why multi votes look scummy?

It's page 4 I don't have too much yet
Persivul has not posted anything AI yet
Clidd's posts were difficult to read tbh so I need more.
Jury is out on Hoctac
Etc

Only things I have seem that pinged are what I have pointed out on Lucky and Klick

This read as genuine. I feel like scum are more likely to make something up there. He posted a lot of people he's not getting anything from, which reads like a real town mindset. Whereas scum in that position might have trouble posting that, knowing everyone's alignment.

Why are you curious about the SirCakez read specifically?
PEdit: Ah. Nah, votes aren't that scary, especially early into D1.

[Klick]

Sell me on Ragman.

[Klick]

Sell me on Ragman.

Why are you asking this?

My feelings on Ragman are meh at best and I wanted to see if there was anything behind farside's read there. I don't have a solid place for my vote right now and I'm hoping to fix that.
You could also sell me on Ragman.

[Klick]

My feelings on Ragman are meh at best and I wanted to see if there was anything behind farside's read there. I don't have a solid place for my vote right now and I'm hoping to fix that.
You could also sell me on Ragman.

I don't like this response. I was hoping you'd say it was more about reading farside than rag. ragman has a 4-post ISO. There's no need for someone to piece bits together and sell it.

I'm assuming you and farside both have some reason to find him suspicious, no?
I'm leaning town on farside at the moment - she's not a high-priority slot to sort for me.

[Klick]

not crazy about Klick's ISO. three "serious" vote hops already.

Do you think scum are more likely to switch their vote around early than town?

Depends on the player and game state
In the context of this game I read Klick's movement as scummy

But you said you were reading my ISO, implying you weren't using the context of the game to come to that read.


Hiya Reundo. I like your catchup. I know you said you haven't agreed with me much, but it seems like we basically agree on a few things that I have more conviction on at this point (clidd-town, I'm coming around on Umlaut-town, farside looks good).

If nothing stands out to me by the time I'm finished reading up I'll gladly join the Ragman wagon.

[Klick]

valoneast, I find myself skimming over a lot of your posts and I think it's because you don't have an avatar. I find it difficult to attach a cohesive mindset to several sections of text without a visual icon to tie them together with.

Why is your vote on Umlaut instead of me?

[Klick]

{farside22, clidd}
{Umlaut, Reundo, SirCakez, Zulfy}
{Persivul, LuckyLuciano}
{Atarashi Hajimari, Hoctac, valoneast, Ragman Saul Rima}

VOTE: Ragman Saul Rima

[Klick]

I find farside more and more towny as the game goes on. Decent questions, always asking for an explanation on why a certain decision was made. I guess scum can replicate this as well, but they mix in their opinions and really try to understand others and what they're saying.

This reads genuine. It came without prompting and looks like something valoneast just... thought, instead of crafted. (farside is also one of the more obvious town so far so it has that going for it)

Also, I approve of your avatar choice.

[Klick]

I feel like i did when i created a game where everyone had 2 votes that they could use to either vote a player twice or split their votes between 2 scum reads. If i could do that I'd vote for cakez too right now.

Talk to me about this read because I'm not seeing Cakez scum at all. He could certainly be efforting more (hey Cakez, you really need to effort more) but he just seems like low-energy town. His tone is pretty free and his impressions of the game look natural and unforced, and he's transparent about being sort of lost.

Cakez makes more of an effort typically. The lack of follow through and really good reads or free following thoughts are missing from him.
IE: this game not the typical town cakez.

I'm disengaged :/
Trying to effort more now

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.
I like Lucky's recent posts better. I think it's plausible that he just had foot in mouth.
Klick has done nothing to improve my read there so
VOTE: Klick

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

Try to explain it to me? I do think her tone was decidedly different from the Newbie game we played in from the onset, but didn't really know if that meant much.

[Klick]

Pretty sure the Atarashi slot is town.

?

You don't know how heavily I was targeted on my old site. I still talk to Atari outside of mafia on a daily basis. He's my DM in D&D. Scum!Atari would see the easy lynch on me and join it to rub it in my face later. Especially because he knows how much I hate getting misrepped. I only see scum!Atari defending me under some crazy pretense that the players in this game, with how poorly they've handled my opening, would then buy an offsite meta driven push against him after I flip green. I also think that scum!Atari prefers town!Lucky dead rather than alive. I see him defending me as having massive opportunity cost from his perspective.

Ah okay you go into it here.
I'm not super convinced Atarashi would be that strongly inclined to never defend you in a SvT situation. A tell like that is begging to be broken.

[Klick]

Is it something you've never expressed to them, then? It seems basic enough in concept that I'd assumed you two had to have been in a situation where that would apply before.
Is the read backed by evidence? Does Atarashi consistently avoid townreading you when they're scum and you're town?

[Klick]

I have too many townreads for the amount of content there's been so far. After sitting on them for a while, I'd probably make a list that looks more like this:

{farside22, valoneast, Reundo}
{SirCakez, LuckyLuciano, Umlaut}
{clidd, Persivul, Zulfy, Atarashi Hajimari}
{Hoctac, Ragman Saul Rima}

[Klick]

It's not a scumread - it's more 'I have zero reason to think Hoctac is town'. Or I guess more accurately, Hoctac is giving bare minimum beyond trolling and is >rand scum simply because he hasn't done anything he isn't likely to do if he rolled red this game. That leaves him on the bottom rung because I can't really say the same about anyone above him.
Except Persivul, I guess. He's probably getting placed a bit higher than he should be because he seems generally reasonable and like a good presence to have in the game if he's town, which I'm fine with for now.

[Klick]

Consider it more of a preferred D1 lynch list than a pure town-scum list.

[Klick]

Klick remains the best wagon. Their (semi-useless) pop-in/pop-out while ignoring SRs on them was bad.

If you'd like me to talk with you about your scumread on me, you should say more than vague statements about how my posts seem useless and bad. I dropped the dialogue that I tried to start with you about your read on me because it was met with 'well in context it was scummy' with no further explanation.
Alternatively, you could engage more in detail with some of the things I'm saying, like some others have done.

[Klick]

{farside22, clidd}
{Umlaut, Reundo, SirCakez, Zulfy}
{Persivul, LuckyLuciano}
{Atarashi Hajimari, Hoctac, valoneast, Ragman Saul Rima}

VOTE: Ragman Saul Rima

I have too many townreads for the amount of content there's been so far. After sitting on them for a while, I'd probably make a list that looks more like this:

{farside22, valoneast, Reundo}
{SirCakez, LuckyLuciano, Umlaut}
{clidd, Persivul, Zulfy, Atarashi Hajimari}
{Hoctac, Ragman Saul Rima}

Why do you say you have too many townreads when these lists look like too many scumreads?

Like I've already said, Hoctac isn't necessarily scumtelling but is simply >rand scum, due to me getting town vibes from everyone above him to some degree. That should put the rest of the places on the lists in perspective.

{farside22, clidd}
{Umlaut, Reundo, SirCakez, Zulfy}
{Persivul, LuckyLuciano}
{Atarashi Hajimari, Hoctac, valoneast, Ragman Saul Rima}

VOTE: Ragman Saul Rima

I find farside more and more towny as the game goes on. Decent questions, always asking for an explanation on why a certain decision was made. I guess scum can replicate this as well, but they mix in their opinions and really try to understand others and what they're saying.

This reads genuine. It came without prompting and looks like something valoneast just... thought, instead of crafted. (farside is also one of the more obvious town so far so it has that going for it)

Also, I approve of your avatar choice.

Btw, just rereading some posts here So just wondering, what made me flip from bottom of your "town-dar" to "clearing" me?

You're not cleared, but I do pretty solidly think you're town.
You've quoted the main reason yourself in that second post. In general, you look like you're genuinely trying to solve this game. It doesn't look the same as everyone else's solving, and I think as scum you might consider trying to mirror what others are doing to get townread (and I think Umlaut's big post about you started with scumreading you for a lot of things that you're simply doing as someone not accustomed to the site's meta). I'd be fairly surprised if you were scum at this point.

[Klick]

@Klick I can mostly jive with your reads list but why did clidd drop down in your reads? His posting has been pretty consistent to me so far.

His play has been consistent and strong so far, and earlier on that felt better than what I was getting from most others. I went through my townreads later and sorted which ones I felt good about and which ones felt relatively weak. And like, if I'm wrong about someone I could see it being clidd a lot more easily than most. I'd like to look at clidd's scum game later to see what he's capable of/whether strong early game is typical for him. I see myself getting a better read on him later on.

[Klick]

Would it help if I added little reference points for what exactly my read on everyone is? That isn't very helpful for me thinking about it that way, but enough people seem confused by my reads that I guess it's necessary.

- TOWN -
{farside22, valoneast, Reundo}
{SirCakez, LuckyLuciano, Umlaut}
{clidd, Persivul, Zulfy, Atarashi Hajimari}
- NEUTRAL -
{Hoctac, Ragman Saul Rima}

- SCUM -

[Klick]

Klick: what is your thoughts on hotac and ragman? All i see is list and your reason for your scum read on hotoc read hollow.

I've been fairly open about the fact that my read on Hoctac

is

hollow. I don't think I can go into much more detail on Hoctac than I already did in 370 (where I explicitly state that Hoctac isn't a scumread). His posts aren't helping me sort him either way.

The biggest reason I joined the Ragman wagon was because I liked my reads on almost everyone who was on it. He asked a lot of questions early on that didn't lead anywhere. I thought his 'it's too early to townread anyone' thing was pretty weird and a convenient take if he's scum. I don't see any reason he couldn't be scum. But I'm not sold he's scum with any sort of conviction.

[Klick]

I have too many townreads for the amount of content there's been so far. After sitting on them for a while, I'd probably make a list that looks more like this:

{farside22, valoneast, Reundo}
{SirCakez, LuckyLuciano, Umlaut}
{clidd, Persivul, Zulfy, Hoctac}
{brassherald, Ragman Saul Rima, Klick}

This a Scum slip?

VOTE: Klick

Oh damn, did I just give away the entire scumteam? What a fail, sorry dude.

[Klick]

I find reads lists useful. They help me organize my thoughts and present them in an easy-to-process way. Since some players are town and others are scum, it's useful for me to rank or organize my read on players relative to each other. Ask me about any of my reads and I can tell you why they are where they are on the list.

farside, you've said that I have a scumread on Hoctac right under a quote that says I don't have a scumread on Hoctac.
I always find it easier to townhunt than scumhunt. You can read any game I've played in the past year and find that to be a strong component of my play.

[Klick]

That slot was really solid all around. Auro came in and was super towny, and before him valoneast was solid town to a bunch of people.

[Klick]

Furthermore, towns (and players in general) tend to be pretty bad at setup-speccing, so it isn't unreasonable for most people to nonchalantly assume all scum in a neighborhood isn't possible.

IMO this is not a good thing