SIR Disease Mafia - Game Over!

[mastina]

Quick question; is this a game everyone is treating dead seriously or is it a game people are kinda going to meme about and not take too seriously? Asking because it makes a difference in how much effort I put in. I kinda assumed this game was the latter and am going in with that expectation, but if it's the former I'll need to shape up and put some more work in.

[mastina]

so many choices! VOTE: mastina

Out of all the games we could be reunited in, I'm kinda disappointed it's one which I am assuming is a meme game. I'd legit be interested to see you and me interact in a dead serious game and to hear your assessment of me, of whether I'm pretty much the same or if I've changed (presumably for the worse but who knows), and if so, how/in what ways.

Alas.

Maybe next time. <3

[mastina]

Nero, are you related to Eddie Came in any way?

Eh, they have

vaguely

similar styles of play, but are very much distinctly different players.

Also, might be a meme game but first instinct:
VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies.

Not gonna even pretend I'd have any gauge of ETL's meta years-later. Even if I did have perfect memory of how she played (and I most decidedly do not), the years of absence probably did change said meta anyway. But like.

Instant vibe from her opening?

Even in a meme game (or, you could say,

especially

in a meme game), probably just scum.

[mastina]

This type of trying hard is the good type of trying hard though

Eh.

Tho speaking of tryharding, how's a page two readslist sound to ya?

Nero Cain

Miss Lynch

Auro

Vecna
Tchill13
momo
5G Tower
Hoctac
Jake the Wolfie
Odelschwanck
Allan90
No łynch
Saudade

davesaz
Alchemist21
Elements
Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers


farside22

EspeciallyTheLies

Approximately. (As per 49.)

[mastina]

Oh damn, what did I sign up for? Idk how to play setups like this

I wanted to call FL scum for this post so I'm going to locktown him for it instead.

[mastina]

Please folks, lets keep it civil.

*Obligatory post of "maybe this is bad scumVscum distancing" and counterpost of "no, this fight is always TvT".*





(But actually, Miss Lynch is probably town and I think ETL's scum, so I think neither.)

[mastina]

Vecna’s tone feels off in most of his posts.
VOTE: Vecna

Can someone factcheck/refresh my memory on this:
Lurksack Alchemist is scum Alchemist, right?

[mastina]

I hard claim uninfectable townie.

I believe this!

[mastina]

VOTE: especiallythelies
drama and mod having to remind ppl to be civil this early is fun i guess.
flavor what do you think of Miss lynch and ETL right now?

Can't tell if scum bussing scum or town correctly identifying scum but either way instantly not an immediate lynch target.

Gun to head would say town over scum tho.

[mastina]

VOTE: Hoctac
Not changing this until you get an avatar.

It's at about this point that I feel like I should give an updated readslist so I don't forget anything:

Nero Cain

Miss Lynch

Hoctac
Auro
Vecna

Tchill13

farside22

momo
5G Tower
Jake the Wolfie
Odelschwanck
Allan90
No łynch
Saudade

davesaz
Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers



Elements
Alchemist21

EspeciallyTheLies

(I think I was too harsh in my initial assessment of farside, she's probably actually town.)
Per 239.

[mastina]

Oops. Forgot to move No Lynch up to the Nero tier. My bad.
Nero Cain
No łynch

Miss Lynch

Hoctac
Auro
Vecna

Tchill13

farside22

momo
5G Tower
Jake the Wolfie
Odelschwanck
Allan90
Saudade

davesaz
Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers



Elements
Alchemist21

EspeciallyTheLies

Actual

list, per 239.

[mastina]

I have a mechanical innocent on Miss Lynch. She's locktown; trust me on this.

I'm less sold on the legitimacy of this claim, so won't be putting you at the Nero tier of town, but sure, this still is probably far more likely to come from town than scum plus I was already townreading your slot so you get an upgrade in my read.

[mastina]

this game got boring fast

Usually the case with games.

[mastina]

And the question was: Did FL roll scum yet again?

While I had the exact same thought, gut tells me no.

You're a distinct possibility tho considering this as your opener feels incredibly off from what I'd expect from you, especially in a meme game.

[mastina]

wow page 14

Wow scum?

[mastina]

what are the chances momo 5G and mastina are the scums? Confirmed but not posted...?

I heard mastina was having internet issues.

That, plus obligations elsewhere on-site, and crippling soul-crushing verge-of-siteflaking depression.

There's a very real chance you see the latter end up radically changing/affecting my presence in this game for the worse; the main reasons I'm posting now are,
1: I didn't remember I had already confirmed, via email knew I had received a PM and misremembered it as being the role PM when it was the daystart PM and was afraid that if I didn't log in today, I'd end up replaced without having played the game at all,
2: This game is a new game, new games always have a certain level of fresh energy to them until the boredom/apathy/etc. hit, and thus until it does there will be that enthusiasm from me,
3: I went into this game expecting it to be a meme game and not taking a game too seriously is an excellent way for me to have more energy,
4: And while I am dead tired, the combination of the above three with having gotten up recently and repeatedly and being in a good mood from good things happening to offset the depression and possibly coffee mean that I had more in me than I would otherwise expect.

We'll have to see if the energy continues. I obviously hope it will, but unfortunately I can't promise it will. Will do my best tho!

[mastina]

Hey all, I hope all is well. Would anyone on the Hoctac wagon care to explain why they are on it?

Completely missed this post but feel obliged to mention the utter dead nullness of it. Doesn't ping me as scum, defends someone I think is town in a way which looks town but is probably nai in that it's a low-effort post scum find easy to make, so also doesn't truly ping me as town either.

[mastina]

Question for mastina upon completion of her catch-up: How do you feel?

Right now? At this very second, less awful than I was before I started posting here.

Before I started posting here I was almost as bad as can get.

And honestly I can already feel it--the moment I

stop

posting, I'll sink back into that bad mental state.
At this very second, I'm relatively fine, but I can

feel

it, once I stop posting in here I am going to plummet back to where I was and I'm terrified of it.

[mastina]

Specifically in reference to what you assume to be the answers to the following questions/statements:

Oh. I took your question to be in a different light.

I got the vibe that people are, in a weird way, doing half of one but half of the other;
People are mentally categorizing the game as a meme game, but

not

PLAYING it as a meme game, where they are treating the game seriously and in spite of mentally filing it as a meme game, are actually tryharding in it in spite of that categorization.

Speaking of said tryharding, caught up readslist:
Nero Cain
No łynch

Miss Lynch
Hoctac

Auro
Vecna
Flavor Leaf

Tchill13

farside22

momo
5G Tower
Jake the Wolfie
davesaz
Odelschwanck
Allan90

Saudade
50 Judge Powers



Elements
Alchemist21

EspeciallyTheLies

Approximately: locktown of locktown; strong town; townreads; weaker townreads; townleans; utter nulls; scumleans; weakish (but not weaker) scumreads; scumread.

[mastina]

Mastina I want to see you reply to 406

You're not exactly the reliable source to use.
I place a much higher faith in 410 than I do 406.

[mastina]

I'm willing to talk to you outside the game if you need it.

I'm always down to chat. Sitechat, discord, PMs, whatever.

Mastina why am I not locktown

Because you haven't obvtowned yourself to that point yet.

Your play right now is far more likely to be town than scum--but this level of performance from you isn't yet utterly outside of your scumrange, not yet at least. Same reason Vecna isn't locktown yet.

To put this in the context of a recently completed game--if you look at what you and Vecna have done in this game, compared to what you and Vecna did in Doubles Mafia, that can give you a fair idea of where I am coming from here. In Doubles Mafia, both of your slots became insanely town and this game I see the starts of what I think is probably similar...but you should be self-aware enough to know that

right now

, your level of play here is not the same level of play in Doubles Mafia (and similarly for Vecna; he should be self-aware enough to know that

right now

, his play isn't at the insanely town levels

yet

),

You're townreads. Townreads with decent confidence. Not weak townreads, not townleans, well and true, proper, townreads. I expect you to move into the locktown tier given more time, but as has been pointed out: game is less than 24 hours old. Vecna's not someone who instantly obvtowns and you're someone who, while they

can

, often doesn't. It took you both time to ramp up to those levels, and I am expecting similar here.

[mastina]

Mastina: what is you scum read on EtL based on?

Everything.

no.

This instantly pegged me as being far, far too serious especially for a meme game.

However, I would like to know how we gain immunity, because nothing in my role PM explained that bit. I didn't know if I should direct the question publicly to the mod in the thread or not, so I asked via PM. <<<

@mod: I hope this is ok to post?

The rules on this site have changed so much since I last played regularly, I have no idea whats kosher anymore.

Not only did this continue the trend of being too serious, it was also, to use a buzzword, LAMIST; ETL was putting in effort to look like she was being town, without doing anything that was actually town. Furthermore, the asking of the question looks entirely fake, or if there were truth to it, scum asking about the town's role PMs due to not having all the information they think they need.

32 has her accuse Miss Lynch of trying awfully hard when her own iso is by far the most guilty of that sin. The fight with Miss Lynch in general felt like a forced fight to get early cheap towncred, too, as people are likely to write off a fight of that nature as TvT. It's a common scum tactic for people of her generation; you deliberately enter into a fight with a town player early who is suspicious of you. That way, their suspicions look less likely to be correct, and people are more inclined to think that both participants are wrongly-tunneling town. It gives a way to stay out of the spotlight later on, because people have written you off as wrong-town, rather than scum.

I know ETL AtEs as both alignments and her AtE this game didn't feel town at all; it felt particularly 'fake', for lack of a better word--maybe overblown would be better? In that I have little doubts ETL felt emotions, but her posting here felt like it was overplaying them, for lack of better terminology. Forcing the feelings, I guess you could say.

Everything about her content this game has felt incredibly calculated and precise, with an odd level of calmness. She radiates an aura of cool, collected, precise posting, one of artificial tone.

Better question isn't why am I scumreading ETL; it's why are you townreading her? That's literally why I initially placed you so low initially; your early defense of her felt off. (I later reconsidered and thought it more likely you're town wrongly defending scum.)

[mastina]

UNVOTE: Mastina
Didn’t realize there was a wagon there.

Yeah on that note if you're expecting me to claim when the wagon on me has players like ETL and Saudade spearheading it, you'll be sorely disappointed.

[mastina]

I appear to be gullible and have been played, and I am ashamed. Don't look at me.
VOTE: mastina

Yeah you sure are gullible and have been played; if you weren't gullible to being played, you wouldn't be joining one of the objectively worst wagons of 2020.

[mastina]

Well, you were the one ranting about people not taking a cult game seriously

so ppls alignment could change. boo hoo. I mean, I guess one could argue that its semi-decent play to NOT PLAY so you don't fuck yourself or your team over if you become scum but thats still only half playing to your wincon.

There was an MD thread on that subject.

General consensus, which I agreed with, seemed to be that playing to get recruited is playing against your current wincon for the chance at getting another wincon that you may never actually get and if you're never recruited then playing to get recruited is playing against your current wincon, that it's better to play to your current wincon even if it does risk the recruitment.

[mastina]

3. This wagon is not objectively one of the worst even in the last two months. It's actually pretty ok, you're introduction has been pretty scummy.

X

This has been, by far, one of the most obvtown games of mine all year; I literally never get more obviously town than I am this game.
Aside from that, yes, the wagon is objectively shit:

Quick question; is this a game everyone is treating dead seriously or is it a game people are kinda going to meme about and not take too seriously? Asking because it makes a difference in how much effort I put in. I kinda assumed this game was the latter and am going in with that expectation, but if it's the former I'll need to shape up and put some more work in.

oh yes, here go
one of the three
VOTE: mastina

Vecna's reason for voting me is literally nonsense; he's quoting a post of mine and making a comment that makes no sense and that's his reason for voting me.

VOTE: mastina
i've never seen more transparent scum posting ever in my life

Saudade blatantly OMGUS'd me calling him scum with this.

VOTE: Mastina
Sheeping Saudade

Auro is explicitly sheeping the OMGUS vote from Saudade.

Hi mastina welcome to the game! So glad you rolled scum. Haven’t you learned by now? I know you know my town game. It hasn’t changed at all. You come in saying you’re going to take this less than seriously and then fall right back into your scum game saying I’m scum day one has always been your tell lol
VOTE: mastina

ETL, like Saudade, is making a pretty blatant OMGUS vote.

VOTE: mastina
Unlike FL, I like wagons.

Explicitly a vote for a wagon for the sake of voting for a wagon.

So I stand by my original assessment.
The wagon is one of the worst wagons of 2020, period.

[mastina]

This has been, by far, one of the most obvtown games of mine all year; I literally never get more obviously town than I am this game.

this is blatantly not true or not so many people would think you're scum no?

It absolutely is true--the last time I was this obvtown was in Alisae versus Pine.
I can be obvtown and still be wagoned; the presence of a wagon (or even a lynch) doesn't mean I wasn't obvtown--it means the wagon is just. that. shit.

[mastina]

Your assessment is objectively wrong, mastina, and I don't think I've ever seen you hold so strongly to something so obviously logically incorrect (although I guess I haven't known you for long). You may be townie compared to yourself (I don't know you well enough to tell), but you haven't been townie when measured with the standard of the average player.

So?

I'm not an average player; I am me. I am obvtown my the mastina metric, not by the average player metric, but being obvtown by the mastina metric is more important because

I am mastina

, not an average player.

[mastina]

why are you obvtown?

Well. For multiple reasons.
I am exuding the aura of townness I normally do, and very very strongly so.
My energy for this game

hasn't

faded (yet, at least), whereas as scum my energy can and does fade very very very rapidly.
I have a unique presence that is something I can't manage as scum.

My scumgame has very very very obviously atrophied to the point of not being great and there are multiple games in Coney Island where this lack of skill at playing scum has shown itself rather prominently. (Granted, yes, there are extenuating circumstances, excuses which "justify" the lack of performance, but you can only make so many excuses before facing the facts that I just cannot put my heart into scum right now and just am not in any way a good, active scum player.)

My towngames have a unique aura where I just...radiate a level of townness to me. Sometimes it's subtle; in Doubles Mafia, for instance, it was subtle enough that I understood why I wasn't instantly being townread because the aura that game was different from my normal town aura. (I could still tell I was radiating a town aura, but I could also tell it was a different town aura from my normal town aura.) This game though that town aura is stronger than it's been in any other game this year.

The content I have given thusfar has already shown a level of whimsy to it that I can't create as scum, where there's a level of spontaneity to it which is utterly absent from my scumgame. I just instantly went with the flow, just went with what felt right, just went with my feelings, in a way I am incapable of doing as scum, where things clearly had no plan to them (whereas when scum I am always stunted and stilted by having a plan).

There's a nuance to my reads where I have shown my thoughts in a way that as scum I can't replicate.

All in all, the question isn't why I am obvtown; it's why in mod's name I

wouldn't

be obvtown, and there is, quite literally, no reason, because this is thoroughly my towngame and absolutely not my scumgame.

The closest reason there would be to me not being obvtown would be that I am making posts like this rather than posts where I further scumreads on slots--but

even that point isn't valid

, because I already

have

furthered my reads and am more or less posting this because I can and feel like it, because I already did what I need to.

Like.

Nero Cain
No łynch

Miss Lynch
Hoctac

Auro
Vecna
Flavor Leaf

Tchill13

farside22

momo
5G Tower
Jake the Wolfie
davesaz
Odelschwanck
Allan90

Saudade
50 Judge Powers



Elements
Alchemist21

EspeciallyTheLies

Approximately: locktown of locktown; strong town; townreads; weaker townreads; townleans; utter nulls; scumleans; weakish (but not weaker) scumreads; scumread.

Nero Cain is the locktown of locktowns because this is Nero's towngame through and through. His alignment is pretty much always transparent and this game is no exception; anyone even remotely familiar with him will be able to tell that he is instantly insanely town.

No Lynch claimed a role that I believe to be a real role that I don't think scum would fakeclaim (and, inherent to its nature, can't be a scum realclaim). It's basically a half-bulletproof, half-innocent-child claim.

I am pretty sure that this is Miss Lynch's towngame. It's not an absolute the same as Nero, because I am less familiar with Miss Lynch and even if I weren't, Miss Lynch is not the type of player with a night-and-day difference between their towngame and scumgame (whereas Nero Cain is), so the townread is not absolute. It is still fairly strong though because I have liked the content Miss Lynch has given and it has seemed genuine, with Miss Lynch's posting coming across as sincere.

Plus, Hoctac claimed an innocent result on them. While I've my skepticism as to the legitimacy/validity of this roleclaim, the fact is still that Miss Lynch is disproportionately more likely to be town than scum.

Speaking of Hoctac, aside from the claim which is more likely to come from town than scum regardless of its legitimacy/validity, Hoctac's content has felt overwhelmingly town here. Again, not familiar enough with the player to put them on the absolute locktown of locktown tiers that is the Nero Cain townread tier, butstill, far far FAR more likely to be town than scum.

I already explained my townreads on Auro and Vecna--simply put, both are doing the right things that make me think that they're more likely town than not, but they haven't done those things to the extent where I would locktown them, because neither is outside of their scum range yet. While both are far more likely to be town than not, they haven't done anything which pushes them over the edge into definitely town yet.

Flavor Leaf's posts this game have sucked ass and they're not only posts that would make me naturally inclined to scumread any slot, but are also posts that I could easily see a disheartened FL make after rolling scum

again

. HOWEVER, I got the impression, specifically because it is FL, that it wasn't disinterest at a scum role PM and that the scummy content wasn't scum, that it was just FL being low on investment as town.

TChill I already explained all there is to that read pretty much--it does look more likely to be town than scum, but Tchill's a skilled enough scum player that it could be from scum and I am not familiar enough with his meta to make a more definitive conclusion about him.

farside I initially thought was a likely ETL partner due to her early defense of content which was self-evidently scummy in nature, especially when farside is the type of player who I would expect to be making the accusation

against

ETL about her forced content being, well...forced. But after seeing her continued posting, I got the impression that she was just wrong-town defending a read she sincerely believes in, because her stances feel fluid and organic. It's not a strong read whatsoever though and mostly boils down to gut.

The nulls are all nulls for good reason. Aside from those that haven't posted, Jake the Wolfie's post was the most nai of nai posts possible. And davesaz is...well, davesaz; his posts don't give me any vibes of his alignment at all yet and I don't expect they will for quite a while, possibly not even until D2. He's a player who is incredibly hard to get any semblance of a real read early on but who becomes incredibly easy to read later on.

Saudade's entrance and content in this game immediately reeked of being very probably scum (in hindsight, should probably be below Almost50 here).

Almost50's content this game more or less feels like it's all out of balance from where it feels it should be. A level of seriousness, mixed with a level of inactivity. If Almost50 were town, I'd expect either the seriousness to be accompanied by a slough of posts, or for there to be inactivity accompanied by a ton of lighthearted jokiness. The splitting the difference, half of one half of the other, feels like it is more likely to come from scum than town.

Elements hasn't made a post which looks town all game long. I realize Elements is a frequently scummy player anyway--but I usually can still get some idea of Elements being town when he is town, and I'm not getting it at all this game.

I could go into my Alch read more but right now I'm deliberately avoiding doing so.

And my ETL read I already went into.

So this is literally all the content I can give, in one post--nothing I can say will further game content more than the latter half of this post does, so everything I post past this point is going to be superfluous, which allows me to make posts like the beginning of this post was.

[mastina]

why are you obvtown?

...It occurs to me that the person I was quoting who asked me the question to spark that post is, in fact, Elements--ironically, yes, this is in fact the spark of town which I think could indicate he might be town.

It's not a 180 on the read, where Elements goes from scumread to townread, but it

is

enough to knock Elements up a tier or two in the readslist, to be something like this:

Nero Cain
No łynch

Miss Lynch
Hoctac

Auro
Vecna
Flavor Leaf

Tchill13

farside22

momo
5G Tower
Jake the Wolfie
davesaz
Odelschwanck
Allan90

Elements
50 Judge Powers
Saudade



Alchemist21

EspeciallyTheLies

Approximately. That is to say, Elements is not out of the scum woods--but that sort of post does feel like it

could

be from town, and seeing a post which could be from town from Elements means that there's a much higher chance he's town than there was before.

[mastina]

1) how you can have that many reads so early if it's serious?

How could I not?

People have posted. Almost the entire playerlist in fact.

You can develop reads off of as little as one post--when almost every slot in the game has

more

than one post, and I have experience with a fair number of these players, again. How could I

not

have serious reads on them?

The scumreads are, rather notably, much much much weaker compared to the opposite-end-of-the-scale townreads, because it is much easier to get good early townreads than good early scumreads, but overall all of the reads (especially the town ones) pretty much all feel good, all feel

right

.

...Plus. I'm pretty much a player whose strength lies in pretty much the beginning, or very end, of the game with almost no in-between. If I am good in the earlygame I won't be good in the midgame and frequently won't be good in the lategame with me having done all the good I will do; if I am good in the lategame, it's because I sucked ass in the midgame and probably am alive only through having been trash in the earlygame too.

But, being good in the earlygame is happening to me much much much more often than anything else because, I dunno. Just ease of getting reads easily? Heck if I know where the success comes from, it just

does

.

[mastina]

Seeking replacements for Allan90 and Odelschwanck who failed to confirm.

momo might be added to the list of possible scum for this off of the virtue of momo having confirmed (thus, not getting replaced), but not being replaced in spite of not having posted at all.

[mastina]

ETL looks pretty townie? High post count and is ACTUALLY excited. But now they are serious.

I'd say "effort != alignment", but that'd be a bit disingenuous of me considering that in this case I happen to think that the effort does have an impact on alignment--a

negative

one, so I should instead say:
Effort != town.

[mastina]

Have I missed anything good?

Game's short enough that you should be able to read it. There's not much in the way of super-critical content so I'd be okay if you heavily skimmed the 25ish pages of said content, but I'd still prefer you do said skim; it'd make me feel much better about your slot to see you go through that effort.

[mastina]

People are generally more inconsistent then they are consisted. This is no different in Mafia. So you are operating under false presuppositions.

For the record, I do think that this Quick is

probably

more likely to be town than scum at this point, but I'm not really sure because it's mostly based off of a pretty stupid reason of, "I don't think Quick gets into an argument of what amounts to semantics* like this if scum".

*Not the best choice of words, but conveys the thought I am more or less thinking of, that Quick engaging in a trivial thing like that which isn't really important, made me think Quick's more likely to be town than not. Which, again, is a pretty stupid reason but hey, I'm fine with it.

[mastina]

Aristophanes town

Eh, Ari's alignment will become incredibly obvious once he does his catch-up, and right now he hasn't done anything which is outside of his scum range--but that said? I'm venturing a

guess

that you're right. It's just a wild guess, purely gut, no real backing at all because again, Ari hasn't done anything really alignment-indicative

yet

, and we'll have a much better idea once he does catch up, but hey I'm willing to run with a guess!

[mastina]

@mastina, flesh out your FL read because that cannot be read at this point IMO.

I'm honestly not sure how to. It's basically just, what I think based off of FL being FL. He's not being hyper-invested in this game, not being hyper-active, not being hyper-strong, whatever you'd like to say.

So given that, there's two possible worlds:
FL is not invested as town,
Or FL is not invested as scum.

Those two are the only two scenarios possible here, because FL is self-evidently not strongly invested (at least not yet).

FL has gotten sick of drawing scum, so there's a precedent for him possibly not being invested as scum--

however

, even when FL is sick of drawing scum, my memory is that he's usually still more active than he is in this game even with him having drawn an alignment he's tired of playing. More than that, I'm not even sure he's tired of drawing scum anymore, because it's been a while since he constantly rolled scum, and that break might've been enough to reset the metric and make him no longer sick of it.

Between those things, I more or less think it far more likely that FL is just not invested as town, because FL as town

can

have games where he's not very invested. It's not an absolute though because I obviously could be mistaken about things regarding FL. Life circumstances, his mindset, his attitude, the exact specifics of his meta, etc. There's lots of things which make the theory not absolute, thus, not a stronger townread but enough of a townread where I don't think he needs focus any time soon.

[mastina]

ETL looks pretty townie? High post count and is ACTUALLY excited. But now they are serious.

I'd say "effort != alignment", but that'd be a bit disingenuous of me considering that in this case I happen to think that the effort does have an impact on alignment--a

negative

one, so I should instead say:
Effort != town.

What makes you think I was talking about effort?

Eh, not effort exactly, but your reasons were "high post count" (not town indicative for ETL and can sometimes be the opposite; if I remember correctly, ETL can have lurkfest games as town but is always hyper-active as scum*) and "being actually excited"--something which in this game I'd call null-at-best, with the very real chance of it being scum-indicative.

And it's simpler to roll those two up into my stereotypical phrase, of effort != alignment (or in this case, effort != town).

*And before ETL can point out that she has hyper-active games as town, my post isn't saying she doesn't. It's saying she's

always

hyper-active as scum, whereas she's not ALWAYS hyper-active as town even if she's hyper-active as town most games.

[mastina]

Put a percentage on FL being Town for me.

If the default were 50% for a user, I'd place him at somewhere in the 60-70% range.

[mastina]

can anyone with a history with mastina tell if mastina always puts so much effort into her scum games

In the past? Sure!

In the last year?

Never once! My scumgames have all been absolute zero effort minimalistic posting where I did the bare minimum necessary and often not even

that

much.

[mastina]

Nero Cain
No łynch

Miss Lynch
Hoctac

Auro
Vecna
Flavor Leaf

Tchill13
Aristophanes
Quick
farside22
5G Tower

Elements

Jake the Wolfie
davesaz

momo

50 Judge Powers
Saudade



Alchemist21

EspeciallyTheLies

This is about where I'm at right now. It might not be exactly right, might take time to refine it more later, but I'm getting tired and have been wanting to grab coffee for like 15-30 minutes now so I admit I kinda rushed this wanting to leave the thread.

[mastina]

im sorry if i dont just take your word for it, can someone

else

confirm

I mean my games are public record so it's not like I'd be lying about easily-confirmed, easily-provable information that is readily available for anyone to search up on their own.

[mastina]

Shit, I thought I could beat the prod timer. Was way way too tired to play yesterday and didn't want to prod dodge but oh well, actions have consequences; while not playing yesterday was inevitable, not prod dodging means I'll eat the prod.
Anyway.

im sorry if i dont just take your word for it, can someone

else

confirm

I mean my games are public record so it's not like I'd be lying about easily-confirmed, easily-provable information that is readily available for anyone to search up on their own.

"By looking at all my games over the past year."

I'd be all too happy to link to my towngames and my scumgames so people can see the night and day difference between the two.

Come up with something that isn’t meta considering I’ve been on hiatus for literally years and the last game we played together was in 2016.

Funnily enough...

Not gonna even pretend I'd have any gauge of ETL's meta years-later. Even if I did have perfect memory of how she played (and I most decidedly do not), the years of absence probably did change said meta anyway. But like. Instant vibe from her opening? Even in a meme game (or, you could say,

especially

in a meme game), probably just scum.

...I already did. That wasn't meta-based and in fact none of the main backing of my reasons for suspecting you have anything to do with meta.

They are things that coming from almost any player, I would be scumreading.

[mastina]

ETL implied they love the rhetoric and argumentation in Mafia: so isn't the "manufactured tone" likely to be a product of playstyle rather than alignment?

I sincerely doubt it.

How would you evaluate their progressions ans trajectories apart from that?

Incredibly shallow, surface-level reads that lack any real depth to them. They reek of reads that are meant to look good without actually being good--with zero genuine thought progression in them, saying what is convenient to say rather than saying something with conviction behind it.

None of her reads look like they have anything controversial about them. To wit,

TOWN
Auro
Quick
Vecna
Dave
Miss Lynch
Nero
Alchemist
Farside

NULL
Creature
Jake
50
Elements
Flavor leaf

PL
5G
Voted
Saudade

SCUM
Mastina
Hoctac?
Ari?
Tchill

The closest to controversial townreads she comes are the davesaz read (and the only thing controversial about that is the strength of the townread, in that it's probably not controversial to say davesaz is north of null) and the Alchemist read (when many people are scumreading him).

None of the scumreads are controversial at all, and all of them are easy reads to hold. Multiple people are suspicious of Hoctac; I am always an easy scumread; Aristophanes hasn't obvtowned himself yet (I'm not fully caught up btw so not positive about that, I'll find out later I guess), and Tchill's an easy enough player to scumread--he's probably the closest the scumreads have to anything controversial due to how he can be townread, too, but it's still undeniable that it's easy to scumread him.

These reads are all surface-level reads that have no true analysis, no true depth, backing them. And what ETL is doing is mostly complaining rather than pushing.

[mastina]

Mastina, have you been pushing them just to observe reactions?

I mean, that's not something I actually really do.

I never push something I don't believe. I can push something I'm not sure of, and

every

push of mine, every push, is meant to garner reactions, and from those generated reactions, give me more information to reform my stances from. But every push, I believe in. Some pushes I have doubts about, but these doubts usually become readily apparent and right now I have almost none.

There's always the chance I am wrong about the likes of ETL, Saudade, Alch, and the like. Heck, there's a high probability that at least 1-2 of them are town because I never nail the scumteam on D1, and while I am usually not so off the mark as to have no scum in my initial suspects, it's also not unheard of so there's even the chance all three are town!

But those doubts are thoroughly unproductive to have because they don't lead anywhere especially when said doubts are just that--doubts, not beliefs. I do not believe ETL is town; I believe she is scum. There are doubts so that read is not absolute, sure, but I still think that she's far more likely to be scum than town. I do not believe Alch is town; I think he's scum. There are some stronger doubts there so that read is not absolute, but I still think that he's probably more likely scum than town. I do not believe Saudade is town; I believe he is scum. There are doubts so that read is not absolute, but I still think it more likely that he's scum than town.

I feel like I have good reasons to suspect ETL and I don't have good reasons behind the doubt in that scumread--the doubts come across more as paranoia of "what if I'm wrong?".
I feel like I do have the right reasons for my read on Alch, but I admit that the reasons behind my doubt there are more or less questioning if my reasons are right, in tandem with seeing things which

might

signal him being town.
My reasons for Saudade are more or less gut, and I trust my gut a fair amount, but there is some obvious doubt there in that I don't have any real reason outside of gut.

And none of this should be a surprise, because as I previously stated: my townreads are, comparatively, much much much stronger than my scumreads. My scumreads

could

be wrong; my townreads

aren't

wrong, at least, not above a certain mark on the list. (Weaker townreads obviously could be wrong, they wouldn't be weak townreads if they couldn't be wrong. But stronger townreads just aren't wrong here.)

[mastina]

Actually I wonder if scum strategy would be to form a townblock and subvert it. Being able to infect the universal TRs would be a great strategy.

That's what anti-infection roles are for.

(If an anti-infection role isn't targeting the likes of Nero or similar never-scum universal townreads, they'd be outright trolling.)

As someone that normally finds Mastina scummy, I rather not lynch her today. OFC the inverse of that argument is that I don't want to have to worry about an infected Mastina (if I'm right that she's town) and lynching her would alleviate that.

Eh. If the scum infect me, it's their loss--literally. When I say there's a night and day difference between my towngame and my scumgame right now, that I fundamentally cannot get myself to put in more than the bare minimum,

I'm not joking

, so there would be an immediate

stark

contrast in my behavior, where, sure, I'd still be posting once a day to avoid getting prodded, but my content would plummet off a cliff into nonexistence pretty much.

Plus, scum infecting me would, presumably, be obvious when I'd flip as originally-town-that-was-infected, tantamount to the scum nightkilling me, soooo. If the scum want to spend what amounts to basically a factional nightkill on me, then who am I to complain? It means they saw me as a threat. That's an honor.

[mastina]

still, sheeping Mastina kinda worries me for the same reason that I was worried about you and gobble willing to sheep NSG.

For the record--I'd rather be sheeped on strong townreads than weak townreads or scumreads. A townread like the one I have on you? Not wrong. A townread on a player like davesaz? Could easily be wrong. A scumread on any player this game? Could easily be wrong. But my locktown townread of you? Never wrong. And similarly-strong reads are also not wrong.

Is this finally what a scum farside looks like?

Eh, the more farside posts (and similarly so for davesaz to a much, much, much lesser degree), the more I think that this is town from her. I don't actually have a reason backing this, just gut at seeing her content and thinking, "this mindset looks like it comes from town". Best way I can think of describing it is that she has an aura around her which is radiating being town. She just comes across as incredibly genuine and sincere, with a natural fluidity in her posts.

FML

If it makes you feel better--you sharing many of my same thoughts, but critically, not thoughts identical to mine, is an incredibly promising sign from you.
It's enough to knock you up to the Nero Cain tier of townread right now; I'm pretty confident in locking you in as locktown now. All the town stuff is there, so I'm willing to go out on a limb and back you there as being town. (Once I'm caught up or at a more convenient spot, I'll give a readslist to illustrate this change in positioning. Butyeah, you're definitely town now instead of a mere probably-town.)

[mastina]

Still, Saud had a decent point on mastina after thinking about it over night.

Oh?

Sorta funny that farside is pushing tchill on the same things that farside is getting pushed for.

Would like to again say that I think farside is town and also believe Tchill is town, soooooooo.

This game has a small number of scum for it’s size, so finding scum is going to be significantly harder than usual. Combine that with a chunk of players not taking the game so seriously because of the nature of the setup and I’m not surprised at the difficulty of getting good reads here.

Eh. Getting good townreads, not that hard. Getting good scumreads, admittedly harder. Getting enough townreads to POE solve the game? Probably also much harder than it should be to be honest, but probably our best bet at narrowing in on the original scum and lynching them.

[mastina]

It wouldn’t surprise me if 1-2 scum were in the people who had to be replaced. Someone pointed out Momo confirmed and didn’t post, and Creature’s an easy read so if that’s scum it should be apparent soon enough.

For the record, at this stage, my Alch read is, notably, reversed, albeit hesitantly so.

I think that this is town-him now, but I have heavy caution, heavy doubts about that conclusion, but I am liking his content, think that yes this is probably him as town and I am no longer getting scum vibes from him, but I do admit I am still worried.

Plus, he's probably right in this assessment; there's almost assuredly going to be scum in the less-active players including the replacements. (Of course, not exclusively in that pool; there is also going to be a more-active scum, too, in all likelihood.) I'll have a better idea of where to look when caught up, and I think I can perfectly air this out with a readslist, but this is another notable difference in reads, an incredibly important one.

In fact, let's actually put that into an, as of post 875, readslist:
Nero Cain
Vecna
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Miss Lynch
Hoctac
(the gap here is incredibly small, almost put none at all)
farside22
Quick
Tchill13

Flavor Leaf
Alchemist21
davesaz
Elements
5G Tower

Aristophanes


Jake the Wolfie

momo/Creature

50 Judge Powers

Saudade


EspeciallyTheLies

Something like this, but with the caveat that I need to finish catching up, that this list needs refinement off of the newer content, that it can and probably will change when I've read everything, that this list is from content from 875 and earlier and that I need to perfect it down the road.

But, this is more or less, locktown of locktown, almost-locktown very strong town, strong town, town, nulltown (Ari), nullscum (Jake), lean scum, weak scum, somewhat-mid-strength-scum, somewhat-strong-scum.

[mastina]

Btw the gap between the Auro-Hoctac tier and the farside-Tchill tier is more or less where I think the divide between my reads lies--above that line, I don't think any of my townreads are wrong; below that line, I admit my reads

could

be wrong.
But, the gap between the two tiers is so small that the divide might just be even lower, with me not wrong on any read above Tchill.

From the FL read and below, I fully admit, I could be wrong on--I don't think I am, but the level of confidence there is lower enough that it's where scum

could

be, even though I don't think they

are

.

[mastina]

Lulz, and Mastina wagons are always a great way to flush out the people with fake and shit reasoning
Sadly so far nothing -really- stood out. I think?

There were a couple of votes that stood out as being fake and shit reasoning.
Hint; they were the only two votes to

give

reasoning.

No, really.
Literally only two. (Well, FL I guess did give a reason too but he immediately unvoted. Of the, what, five, six players that voted? Only two gave a reason. Unless you count "I'm sheeping" as a reason which I do not. Or "I like wagons" as a reason which I do not.)

Can you guess which two players who voted me gave reasons for it?

[mastina]

I liked most of the Mastina stuff so far, but the big overexplainy post on her townreading me and Auro felt like something a scum player could recycle every game and apply to literally any player with a few bits and pieces changed.

I mean, you're not

wrong

, but that doesn't make it any less true or any less valid as analysis. It so happens that, yes, is easily recyclable and thus easy to use as scum just as it can be used when town, but sometimes, even if it's a bit of a cliched reasoning, it's still the most apt reasoning to use.

ETL's progression really feels like its gone from good, to slightly less good, to doing a bunch of actions that can be construed as really badly, to then voting like 4 people in a row for reasons I thought made all of those slots obvtown. Extreme situation of thought dissonance

Not the exact words/reasoning I would use but I would convey similar. ETL's posting is very shallow and lacks depth, lacks followthrough, to it. She posts things which in the moment look plausibly good as passable opinions, but which when looked at in hindsight, don't actually have any true backing to them.

Ask mastina.

I think ETL is playing a good scumgame as shown by the players townreading her. If ETL is town, then this is not her finest moment tho. The only good a town-ETL would've done this game is having those aforementioned townreads on her. Because like I've said--ETL's content this game has looked town without actually doing anything town.

If she is scum, this is good play; if she is town, then there's no real good play to be seen in that approach.

So, really, depends on your alignment here. If you're scum, your play here is excellent as you're doing exactly what you should be doing as scum especially in a game of this nature. If you're town, your play is objectively not good with the one good spot being the ability to have garnered some townreads on your slot, the same thing which is better for scum here than town.

[mastina]

It may sound arrogant but I have a probable track record of being a great scum hunter.

Yeah, exactly.
And you're not showing it.
You're complaining instead of scumhunting.

Complaining about various stuff in a "woe is me" manner, instead of doing that great scumhunting.

The majority of your posts are not pushing players; the majority of your posts are AtE.
You're not giving reasons for the majority of your reads and the few reasons you have given are largely shallow, surface-level thoughts that have no real depth to them. You're not following through on those thoughts; you're not pushing your reads; you're instead complaining and blaming everyone around you for this.

Which is why I say--if you're town, that's a total failure on your part, where you have every power in the world to have pushed more and done more, but are choosing to blame everyone else, choosing to say it's the fault of the rest of the town rather than your own doing.

But if you're scum, there's no failure at all, because that play is precisely the optimal scum play to make, especially in a game of this nature.

You're doing things that are optimal for scum but are, for a town player, an objective failure of an approach.

The respect I have in your capabilities as a player, the respect I have in your competency,

demands

that in an assessment of your play, balance of probability, that the play that is self-explanatory as scum but which makes no sense as town, is just you as scum.

[mastina]

It isnt about reputation unless youve given a high enough quantity of social handjobs to people.

(*quietly shoves the massive pile of, "I would think badly of this, but it's mastina", under the table*)

[mastina]

Town can recruit infected players back?

It's possible. After all, some immunities aren't permanent, so it could also work vice-versa where some infections aren't permanent.

[mastina]

Don't prod me yet plz I'm getting there with this. Taking longer than I'd hoped

And you'll be labeled scum until you deliver this promise.

[mastina]

I think infected people can infect other people by doing night actions but mafia don’t inherently infect people with their actions.

I'm somewhat skeptical of this.

Omg what if almost everyone has a night action but we have to STAY HOME to prevent it spreading too fast???

but town gotta have compulsive roles to mimic essential workers.

Or be healthcare workers whose jobs are to try and prevent the disease but which require them to be in conditions hazardous given the disease.

[mastina]

i'm pretty null on Jake. I don't expect a scum flip but I also wouldn't be surprised if he flips scum. He wouldn't be a bad d1 flip but at the same time it feels like....so underwhelming.

Jake would be the classical compromise lynch where nobody can come to a clear enough consensus to lynch a more active player so they settle on an empty slot. Could be town, could be scum, but it's literally a coinflip because it's the deadest of dead slots. Not the worst lynch to make, but also far from the best because the best we could hope for from the lynch is that we won the lottery and randomly lynched scum; their lynch won't give us information, won't point us to scumbuddies even if they're scum and definitely won't help the town if flipping town.

That is to say--not an optimal lynch to make, but push come to shove, if need be; yes, I would roll the die and hope we got lucky with a scumflip, so would be willing to compromise lynch there. But it's far too early to be aiming for a compromise lynch when there's still very viable lynches that aren't compromise lynches on a dead lurker slot.

[mastina]

If town doesn't have an infection blocker or reviver, there's a very interesting gamebreaking strategy. Noting this here so I don't forget, remind me post-game.

I mean--infection blocker is guaranteed to be in the game, probably in multiple forms. Can't have the alternative wincon if there's no way to trigger said alternative wincon and the town would need a way to trigger said wincon thus there must be roles related to it.

A lot of her takes are forced and over the top, and she expresses unnatural overconfidence at times.

Explain with examples, pl0x.

Easy enough to do if it's that important, but it'd be something I'd have to have the perfect storm of availability to do; I'd need to
-Be caught up,
-Have the spare time,
-Be in the right mindset (there are days I don't want to play mafia),
-And have the physical/mental capability to create (need to not be tired).
Those factors all present, walk in the park to do; her iso's almost exclusively that type of content so it's easy enough to pull up examples of it.
Any of those factors absent, impossible to do, tho, sadly. I'd love to do it for you because I'd love to give the case but I just...have my limits as a human to what I can do.

[mastina]

Auro sadly is just busy stating things he thinks will sound good and make people townread him. He's not actually doing genuine reads on the playerlist. He is not trying to solve so far.

You're describing the wrong player here; Auro has done plenty of things that are quite good and sincere and show active critical thought with backing and reasoning that displays a trajectory in thought.

You are however perfectly describing ETL's contributions this game.

[mastina]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82629
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82397
spot the differences and tell me which one is more similair to this game. Note that auro is in the p-horses hydra and was responsible for like 80-90% of the communication done.

Not the scumgame? Like, uh. Vecna. The Auro from that scumgame looks nothing like the Auro from this game, whereas the Auro from the TH game is a lot like the Auro this game. The Auro from the scumgame looked pretty much like a lurksack in content, actively lurking without much in the way of critical thought. But this game, there

is

critical thought in Auro's iso. Like, I don't see the similarities between the scumgame and this game at all? And yet I do see Auro's play here as basically a dead-ringer for Doubles Mafia.

What similarities are you seeing? Because I legit don't understand where you're coming from here.

[mastina]

This game is the easiest to win for town if everyone obvtowns d1

Speaking of, Saudade might actually be town. (His contributions the last few pages certainly make me lean that way, so like Alch, read reversed but hesitantly so.) The game might just actually be "ETL + 2 lurkers" as the scumteam.

Which two, hard to say, but one of them being Aristophanes sure wouldn't be a surprise to me.

[mastina]

While I work on other things this is acceptable.
VOTE: Creature
Reason previously given.

Acceptable wagon. Creature would be among the lurkerslots likely to be scum.
The others being Aristophanes, 50 Judge Powers, and Jake the Wolfie, as of 1556.

That group of four players doesn't contain three scum, but at this point, probably

does

contain two scum. 50/50 shot, not the worst of odds to take. (Admittedly we'll be a bit fucked if we choose a town in there, but only due to the fact that doing so will cause us to not continue lynching in the group in spite of the odds moving from 50/50 to 66/33 with a town mislynch.)

[mastina]

a) A Doctor who gives out a vaccine
b) A Doctor who cures the infected and once cured you can no longer get infected again

There should be multiple of this sort of role, actually, not just one. If there were only one, we'd be fucked if they died early-on by being too town/high profile/much of a threat/etc. especially if infected.

I'd expect there to be, like. Five, eight, thereabouts, such roles and similar. Probably not half of the town having such roles, but enough of the town having them that the scum would need to work really hard and be really precise to eliminate them all.

[mastina]

The kills should be for the doc, I believe

Doctors, plural, but yes. Also keep in mind we have a claimed infection-immune townie who thus cannot be infected; mafia leaving that slot alive means that they always have someone immune to being infected. (Like I said, No Lynch/Voted is half-BP, half-IC. For scum to get rid of the conftown, they need to spend one of their only two factional nightkills on the slot, something I am fine with since it'd mean they only have one left to take care of anti-infection players. )

[mastina]

BTW 50's posts that are happening now are town-indicative.

I agree.
So that narrows down the probable lurker-scum pool to 2/3; not bad odds to be honest.
Within {Aristophanes, Creature, Jake}, pretty sure there's that 66% chance to hit scum and with those odds, would be all too happy to join a wagon on any of them.
Probably Ari > Creature

>

Jake though if I were left with a choice between the three. That being, Aristophanes most suspicious, Creature behind him, Jake loosely at the Creature level but familiarity with Creature makes me want to lynch Creature first.

[mastina]

What's your take on Mastina?

Going to eat either the scum nightkill or a scum infection for sure at some point due to how much of a threat she's posing.

[mastina]

66 pages... I’m never catching up

For the record, while I don't think FL is scum, if he active lurks like this, I'd be okay with a policy lynch on his slot just in case there's the chance he was scum.

(Then again, if FL pulled his normal antics in a game, I'd probably then say I'd be down to policy lynch FL for said antics. )

That said.
Still think Ari/Creature/Jake are by far a better focal point overall.

[mastina]

Ari's posting is sociable, but no real content. I too am working and my availability will be highly variable. Today has been an unusually good day for posting.

Indeed.

While I sympathize with being busy, Aristophanes's lack of content here this game is scum-indicative until proven otherwise.

[mastina]

ETL's content this game has looked town without actually doing anything town.

Do you have a proactive > reactive bias in how your read people in general?

Nope, never even remotely. Never been something that has ever factored in, ever.

The only thing proactive/reactive has ever meant in a game is in relevance to me, specifically, if I was in a proactive or reactive mindset. It is utterly irrelevant to other players and how I gauge them.

[mastina]

It didnt stood out to me, so ive quickly forgotten

These were the only reasons ever given by any of my voters:

VOTE: mastina
i've never seen more transparent scum posting ever in my life

Hi mastina welcome to the game! So glad you rolled scum. Haven’t you learned by now? I know you know my town game. It hasn’t changed at all. You come in saying you’re going to take this less than seriously and then fall right back into your scum game saying I’m scum day one has always been your tell lol
VOTE: mastina

I dunno, that self vote is kinda

ate

y and just makes me wanna kill it.

I’m fine with that. I’d like to know what your plan is when I flip town. Who will you be looking at?

Well, I'd add 5G to the scumpool because their early stance on you is basically pretty much one of the only reasons I am townreading their slot, and come to the conclusion that in all likelihood, the entirety of the original scumteam was lurkers.

But that's reliant on a scenario I don't believe will actually happen, so.

[mastina]

Are you going to answer my question mastina?

I catch up linearly; posts don't exist before I read and quote them. 1790 didn't exist until just now. So, yes--I answer questions. When I get to that point in the thread. The question doesn't exist prior to that point.

This is why it's pretty damn important for me to remain caught up btw and why entering into projects such as cases (which can keep me behind) is so dangerous to dip into.

[mastina]

Nero Cain
Vecna
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Miss Lynch
Hoctac
(the gap here is incredibly small, almost put none at all)
farside22
Quick
Tchill13

Saudade
Flavor Leaf
Alchemist21
50 Judge Powers
davesaz
Elements
5G Tower



Jake the Wolfie
momo/Creature


Aristophanes

EspeciallyTheLies

Caught up and updated readslist at this point.

[mastina]

Do not let mastina later claim that she was just “mistaken” after spending so many posts trying to convince people she’s such an authority on my gameplay.

I never did this and in fact stated the opposite:

so many choices! VOTE: mastina

I'd legit be interested to see you and me interact in a dead serious game and to hear your assessment of me, of whether I'm pretty much the same or if I've changed (presumably for the worse but who knows), and if so, how/in what ways.

Not gonna even pretend I'd have any gauge of ETL's meta years-later. Even if I did have perfect memory of how she played (and I most decidedly do not), the years of absence probably did change said meta anyway.

[mastina]

A case based on "without actually doing" is easily disproven by examples of her doing. What's up with the house of cards approach? And why push it on someone who evidently takes it badly?

I recognize you are saying words here that you presumably want a response to but I have no comprehension of these words.

when you reply to later stuff it makes it appear as though your cursor is beyond the question.

I don't reply to later stuff? In a single post, I can, and do, arrange the order of quotes, so a later quote might be done earlier in the post if it makes more sense for that later quote to be listed first--but when I do this, it was still typed

after

.

To put it another way. Say I quoted whatever 1817 is, but I put it above these quotes for 1816. I'd still be typing this section first, and then the section for 1817 second, it's just that I'd have chosen to put the quote for 1817 first and responded to it first because in this hypothetical case, I decided it made more sense to list 1817 first and then 1816 second.

This is pretty apparent when you track posts from me over time; later quotes come, well...later.

This is not

always

the case, but it's

often

the case. I think it was in team mafia that I explained my catchup method most clearly and it is apt to here:

Mastina

How aware are you of this recurring thing where you do your catch up and you agree with posts I made earlier looking at stuff you want to look at

Somewhat. Not gonna lie: they enabled viewing this forum offline and I have taken liberal advantage of this feature. So I am no longer always blindly posting.

However, sometimes I still am blindly posting and sometimes I am half-blind in that I'll have read PART of the thread, seen something that I wanted to post about, and then posted about it without having read the contents past the post which made me log in in the first place.

Yet more times, I read it all, but I forgot about the later posts until I reread them, having forgotten that they were made even though I read them.

So quite often, I'm not aware, due to one of the above. Me not having read anything; me having read only some things and not everything; me having read everything but having forgotten about the later stuff.

But there are times when I am aware.

I can tell you that in my above series of posting, it was a mixture of the latter two:
This morning, I read everything in the thread at the time, and at home whilst having the capacity to snip quotes, commented on the relevant section of hito's post.

I continued to read the thread after that, and left for work.
At work, I remembered that there was a post that I could comment on, on my phone. I didn't remember the other posts in the thread and even if I had, the conversation had more posts made between when I last read and when I logged in on my phone, and all of those posts, I couldn't have read, so they were posts I had no knowledge of until I quoted them.

So, some of what you've said, yes, I've known about before chiming in with my own version; most, I have not. Including what you said on this page.

Basically, by and large, a post after what I am responding to, doesn't exist--it

can

have been read, but most likely hasn't been read, as a general rule of thumb.

[mastina]

(In the case of today's content--yesterday I did read a little without logging in, because I saw how many pages there were to catch up on and realized with how tired I was, I couldn't pull it off back then. So, some of Thursday's content, I had read. All of Friday's content, I did not, because the first thing I did today was log in and come straight to this game. I even skipped breakfast because, again, I knew prod timers were 36 hours and was

hoping

to outrace, to beat, the prod timer but was a tad bit too slow on the uptake. If you were to ask me how much of Thursday's content I had read yesterday, though, the answer is simply: I don't remember/know because I have poor retention of that sort of thing.)

[mastina]

You are asserting ETL hasn't actually done anything town. This can easily be disproven by examples of things she is doing that are obviously town.

And what would those things be? Things which didn't just look town but were

actually

town?

If your case is something different than that, then please enlighten us.

My case is more or less that what ETL has done is incredibly fake across the board; the only things not faked are things that are obviously nai, e.g. her AtE, her mechanics posting. Her posts are "easy" to make, for lack of a better word.

ETL has been too loud today.

Loudness is not a towntell least of all from ETL. Especially not frustration, especially not toxicity, especially not for AtE.

you cant convince me she's throwing as scum to set 2, 3 ppl up thats hard defending her?

What's 'throwing' about her play? Nothing in her play this game is throwing if she's scum. The self-vote when nowhere close to a lynch is a classic scum move from the era ETL was a player in; she is very well-versed in the theory of self-voting for the towncred.

it is slightly irritating to think you actually believe the game is this easy. I almost dont believe you actually think that.

Oh, the game being easy wouldn't be 2/3 of the lurkers scum; the game being easy would be all three of the lurkers scum! I happen to think the game's harder due to ETL being scum.

Still, tho. At this point, I'll vote whichever of {ETL, Creature, Aristophanes} has the most votes. Right now that is ETL. That said:

This game is really hard to track tbh.

It is posts like this which

would

make me think that, yes, the game is that easy.

[mastina]

I'm putting Auro on my "willing to lynch" category

I'm actually moving Auro up to the townbloc category with the likes of Nero Cain and Vecna. The more he posts, the more sure I am of it. Admittedly, to use the cliched expression, I could quote Auro's explanation of his townread on me with, "pocket attempt successful" or similar lingo, because I admit that plays a part in it, but like. Auro is radiating the townness that I expect him to as scum and it's at the point of being strong enough where I'm going to say fuck paranoia, and lock him as town because any suspicion on him at this point in time is precisely that; paranoia. He's just, overwhelmingly town beyond a shadow of a doubt.

she was under no real threat before she started acting a little odd in terms of self voting.

Precisely why the action makes no sense as town but makes perfect sense as scum. She was under no real threat. As town, she therefore has no reason to have reacted that way. As scum, she

does

have a reason to react that way; to garner some cheap towncred and dissuade the efforts at wagoning her before they take off. It's a move that there was low-risk to pull, but incredibly high reward.

grabbing the spotlight d1 early for no reason on a play to AtE when its not needed makes sense how?

Precisely because it's not needed--what does ETL in the spotlight risk as scum? She wasn't even close to lynch range.

There's a weight between the possible town motive for an action, and a possible scum motive for the action. The town motive for the action is...well, honestly, it's hard to tell because there isn't much of one. The scum motive for the action is to shut down the suspicion on her slot, play wounded gazelle to get sympathizers to help defend her and divide the town and break unity, get people who're suckers for AtE to townread her.

[mastina]

Also, her statements that she always makes that her scum game is oh so bad is not always actually the case.

I mean. Circa two years ago my scumplay was among the best of the best onsite, but I don't know what happened to it, a year and a half of having drawn almost exclusively town role PMs (I went over 20 games in a row without drawing scum!), and for whatever reason. I just. Haven't been able to play scum worth a damn this year. Give me a little time and I can give you some examples demonstrating the utter lack of ability to play that alignment. While, admittedly, many of these scumgames had extenuating circumstances which incentivized that lack of playing scum, not all of them had it and even ones which

shouldn't

have been that way, ones which I

should

have been able to play to my fullest at the level scumastina is known for.

Well.

I just.

Didn't

.

So.

My scumgame in 2020 is, yes, objectively--terrible, demonstrably so. I will admit. It having been objectively terrible in every single scumgame this year does not mean that I couldn't magically have a scumastina performance at the level I'm usually known for! It could happen! But it hasn't, multiple times, hasn't. Why, dunno. Just is.

Anyways, she is overwhelmingly more likely to be town here, but dont get too convinced on that fact without keeping that sharp eye.

I mean, cult game, so. I'm town today, but obviously I can't promise you that I'll

stay

town. (I mean. Scum's mistake if they infect me, but like. While it's obviously a mistake for scum to infect me. Scum aren't immune to making mistakes, so. Could happen in spite of how objectively terrible a move it'd be.) So like. Future days, keep an eye on what I am doing. If I have a sudden inexplicable abrupt dropoff in contributions and activities, chances are

fairly

high that the cause is that I'm no longer town.

Probably locktown, never a day1 lynch:
8. Vecna+
17. mastina+*
18. Miss Lynch+
19. Nero Cain+
20. Tchill13+
21. Saudade+
2. Auro+
7. Allan90 Quick+
15. EspeciallyTheLies+

Done significant stuff that makes them likely town. Also not lynch today
13. farside22+
14. davesaz+
11. Elements+

Not done anything:
10. Alchemist21+
12. Flavor Leaf+
16. 50 Judge Powers+
4. 5G Tower+
5. Jake the Wolfie+* ^
6. Odelschwanck Aristophanes+

Actually done stuff that I think is scummy for the slot, Prime lynch pool:
1. momo+ Creature+
3. Hoctac+
9. No łynch+ Voted+

This game really is easy. If those 6 people can just obvtown right about now, the scum can just concede

The only townread in there I disagree with is ETL. In the scummy-slots, I admit that No lynch/Voted is a locktown read based purely on their roleclaim and not off the merits of their play whatsoever. I know I am usually a proponent of "role != alignment", but that saying doesn't apply to innocent child/mason-type claims and No lynch/Voted claimed a role that is precisely that. (Uninfectable Townie, their claimed role, is, again, explicitly a claim that they are a player who fundamentally

cannot be made into scum

.)

Hoctac's content is similar to ETL in that I disagree; I don't think Hoctac's content here is even remotely scummy and to the contrary think it is town.

In the Not Done Anything category, I think Alch and Almost50 have both in more recent times done things. They definitely qualified earlier in the game, but their later contributions are passable at least

for now

.

But, yeah, Aristophanes/Creature/Jake definitely contains AT LEAST one scum, but probably two. (FL is at this stage, "eh I wouldn't mind if we lynched him on policy but I don't have the same expectation to hit scum on him that I do for Ari/Creature/Jake". 5G is never scum with ETL but if ETL were town as you believe, as I have previously said, yes, would be included in the Ari/Creature/Jake pool.)

VOTE: Creature
Creature and Ari are both likely scum.

Example of what I mean by Alch having done more and thus me feeling he was misplaced, btw.
And, yes, he be quite correct. Between the two of them there's guaranteed to be at least one scum with a very real chance that both actually drew scum here.

Part of the reason that I questioned mastina on her ETL read was that "not doing anything" is a horrible read on someone with ~200 posts.

And what has she done with those 200 posts?

Show me something bad from ETL that isn't AtE and I'll be on board.

Everything?

[mastina]

I really just don’t feel like playing mafia, guys. I don’t think I’ve ever felt this burnt out before. I’m not even modding a game right now. I’ll stay in the game for now, and try to force myself to get going, but yeah. I have a site wide lull in activity right now.

Hugs. <3
This game is the only game where I'm not feeling pretty much the same as you, and

even then

, I am feeling that way even in this game. (I wouldn't have chosen to post today if not for the short prod timers + eating a single prod already.)

So I do know the feeling. <3

[mastina]

Nero Cain
Auro
Vecna
No łynch/Voted

Miss Lynch

Hoctac

farside22
Quick
Tchill13

Saudade
Flavor Leaf
Alchemist21
50 Judge Powers
davesaz
Elements
5G Tower



Jake the Wolfie

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

EspeciallyTheLies

Updated readslist. As mentioned, Auro moves to locktown. You might note a gap between Miss Lynch and Hoctac--that is not my read on Hoctac degrading, so much as it is my read on Miss Lynch having grown stronger; Miss Lynch is at the point where I am

almost

moving her up to the locktown section. She's

that

strong of a townread.

Hoctac is still a very strong townread, and farside/Quick/Tchill are still strong townreads, with the entire Saudade-5G list being townreads. (Not leantowns, not nulltowns, not weak towns, well and true, proper, town

reads

.) Each of these townreads has reason behind it, though the 5G one as I have stated previously

is

reliant on ETL being scum. (5G would move down to be around Jake's level, just above Jake, if ETL were to flip town.)

Jake's content sucks ass, but of the three lurkers is the least-likely to be scum.
Both Creature and Aristophanes are highly likely to be scum here, with Ari being a worse offender than Creature for how condemning this would be.

[mastina]

Read up to current, but don't have the time to respond to it right now. (Won't promise when I will respond to it, but I will be responding to it.)
Did notice the growing wagon on Ari and I'm pretty sure it's larger than the ETL wagon right now, sooooo.
As promised:
VOTE: Aristophanes.

I said I'd vote whoever had the most votes within {Ari, ETL, Creature}, and that's Ari right now.

[mastina]

Prodge of all sitewide activities for today - I promised you all yesterday that, yes, I would get to things soon, but anticipating that there was a very real chance I'd need to do this is

precisely

why I said I couldn't promise a date other than "soonish".

I am optimistic that I

should

have time for all of my duties, here included, come tomorrow. Still can't promise it for certain, but I don't think there's anything which would get in the way (whereas today, there was), so. Hopefully tomorrow, will be here.

[mastina]

Okay, as promised: I am here.
I did catch that the ETL wagon is larger than the Ari wagon but critically isn't in hammer range. (I think she's L-3? Somewhere in that range, but definitely not L-1 which means this is definitely not a hammer.)
So, given that:
VOTE: EspeciallyTheLies.
I promised I'd vote whichever of Ari/ETL/Creature had most votes and right now that's ETL. (If you don't want her to be in hammer range, then the impetus to unvote is on you because I refuse to not vote her.)

And as promised, will be replying to the content I read but didn't respond to earlier.

[mastina]

I will always keep a moderate level of suspicion on your slot in any game, ever.

Always the appropriate way to approach me to be honest, at least until there's far better reason for me to be town than scum. (Which exists a plenty this game but obviously in general doesn't exist until later into the game.) Healthy level of caution is, well, healthy--so long as you don't succumb to paranoia.

Also, you do know that the role claim of no lynch / voted was just trolling right?

Was it? Because I got the distinct impression that was a serious claim of an actual role that there is an incredibly high chance of actually being in the game.

Like, if you missed that it was an obvious trolling response to the other troll slots all fakeclaiming shit in quick succesion at that point youre not paying -that much attention- mastina

I was most decidedly paying attention to that section of the game, though I would admit it was long enough ago that I'd need to look back on it to see for myself. But, doing that:

I hard claim uninfectable townie.
That being said, can we lynch a town that can be infected today? I am super excited to find out how a "normal" town PM looks like.

This was the claim. Where are the alleged troll slots fakeclaiming in quick succession? Nowhere on that page, page six. Nowhere on the page before, page five. Nowhere on page four. Nowhere on page three. Nowhere on page two. And nowhere on page one.

Where is the alleged fakeclaiming of shit from troll slots in quick succession?

If it happened in this game at all, it happened

after

No Lynch's claim, not before.

So no. It was not an obvious trolling response to other troll slots all fakeclaiming shit in quick succession, and apparently, you were the one not paying that much attention because you are saying that happened when there's literally no posts that were like that; I checked and read every single post in the game prior to No Lynch's post and the closest there was to a fakeclaim troll was Auro's first post saying 'mutate Nero', but that was literally it and Auro is not a troll slot.

[mastina]

Why is 5G a Townread?

though the 5G one as I have stated previously

is

reliant on ETL being scum.

Basically, 5G's content this game is never scum if ETL is scum due to the way 5G treated ETL's slot.

If ETL were to flip town, then 5G wouldn't instantly become confscum, but would drop to null-at-best territory where they are a very real candidate for being lurkerscum.

How much are Mastinas reads publically acknowledged?

Every game, this one included, regardless of my alignment, the answer is the same regardless:
Not nearly enough.

Doesn't matter if I'm town or scum, doesn't matter if my reads are right or wrong, regardless of game, the answer is always that my reads are not as publicly acknowledged as they

should

be. Because I always give reads on basically every player and almost always give reasoning for said reads on basically every player, so that should

always

be something that the town has discussion material on, and yet often the majority of the town rarely does or if they do only discuss a fraction of the readslist rather than engaging on the entirety of it.

[mastina]

Some of the mechanics posting being wrong is part of the reason for the TR. I think more care would be taken if she were scum.

Scum can be wrong about mechanics, either legitimately having made a mistake or deliberately making a 'mistake' to mislead the town (beit misleading the town into thinking it's a townslip, or misleading the town by making them make erroneous readings of the game mechanics). So, no. Scum don't take more care and even if they do they are more than willing to fake having not done so.

Show us some posts that you feel are too easy, if they're so easy to see.

You want me to quote her entire iso? Because I can quote just about any given post of hers and explain why it is easy to make. Why don't you randomly quote some of her posts, of your choice, so I can demonstrate it that it's literally basically the entirety of her iso? Not a joke. I can quote just about any post of hers and tell you why it is an easy post to have made and to some extent I've already done this (e.g. why her readslist post was easy to make; I already explained why it was).

Quote a post and explain why it's scum motivated. A player of your caliber should have no difficulty doing this. You avoid doing anything like that, to the extent that I remember.

Well. Funnily enough.

Spoiler: I've been doing that the entire game.

Mastina: what is you scum read on EtL based on?

Everything.

no.

This instantly pegged me as being far, far too serious especially for a meme game.

However, I would like to know how we gain immunity, because nothing in my role PM explained that bit. I didn't know if I should direct the question publicly to the mod in the thread or not, so I asked via PM. <<<

@mod: I hope this is ok to post?

The rules on this site have changed so much since I last played regularly, I have no idea whats kosher anymore.

Not only did this continue the trend of being too serious, it was also, to use a buzzword, LAMIST; ETL was putting in effort to look like she was being town, without doing anything that was actually town. Furthermore, the asking of the question looks entirely fake, or if there were truth to it, scum asking about the town's role PMs due to not having all the information they think they need.

32 has her accuse Miss Lynch of trying awfully hard when her own iso is by far the most guilty of that sin. The fight with Miss Lynch in general felt like a forced fight to get early cheap towncred, too, as people are likely to write off a fight of that nature as TvT. It's a common scum tactic for people of her generation; you deliberately enter into a fight with a town player early who is suspicious of you. That way, their suspicions look less likely to be correct, and people are more inclined to think that both participants are wrongly-tunneling town. It gives a way to stay out of the spotlight later on, because people have written you off as wrong-town, rather than scum.

I know ETL AtEs as both alignments and her AtE this game didn't feel town at all; it felt particularly 'fake', for lack of a better word--maybe overblown would be better? In that I have little doubts ETL felt emotions, but her posting here felt like it was overplaying them, for lack of better terminology. Forcing the feelings, I guess you could say.

Everything about her content this game has felt incredibly calculated and precise, with an odd level of calmness. She radiates an aura of cool, collected, precise posting, one of artificial tone.

Better question isn't why am I scumreading ETL; it's why are you townreading her? That's literally why I initially placed you so low initially; your early defense of her felt off. (I later reconsidered and thought it more likely you're town wrongly defending scum.)

Hi mastina welcome to the game! So glad you rolled scum. Haven’t you learned by now? I know you know my town game. It hasn’t changed at all. You come in saying you’re going to take this less than seriously and then fall right back into your scum game saying I’m scum day one has always been your tell lol
VOTE: mastina

ETL, like Saudade, is making a pretty blatant OMGUS vote.

How would you evaluate their progressions ans trajectories apart from that?

Incredibly shallow, surface-level reads that lack any real depth to them. They reek of reads that are meant to look good without actually being good--with zero genuine thought progression in them, saying what is convenient to say rather than saying something with conviction behind it.

None of her reads look like they have anything controversial about them. To wit,

TOWN
Auro
Quick
Vecna
Dave
Miss Lynch
Nero
Alchemist
Farside

NULL
Creature
Jake
50
Elements
Flavor leaf

PL
5G
Voted
Saudade

SCUM
Mastina
Hoctac?
Ari?
Tchill

The closest to controversial townreads she comes are the davesaz read (and the only thing controversial about that is the strength of the townread, in that it's probably not controversial to say davesaz is north of null) and the Alchemist read (when many people are scumreading him).

None of the scumreads are controversial at all, and all of them are easy reads to hold. Multiple people are suspicious of Hoctac; I am always an easy scumread; Aristophanes hasn't obvtowned himself yet (I'm not fully caught up btw so not positive about that, I'll find out later I guess), and Tchill's an easy enough player to scumread--he's probably the closest the scumreads have to anything controversial due to how he can be townread, too, but it's still undeniable that it's easy to scumread him.

These reads are all surface-level reads that have no true analysis, no true depth, backing them. And what ETL is doing is mostly complaining rather than pushing.

It may sound arrogant but I have a probable track record of being a great scum hunter.

Yeah, exactly.
And you're not showing it.
You're complaining instead of scumhunting.

Complaining about various stuff in a "woe is me" manner, instead of doing that great scumhunting.

The majority of your posts are not pushing players; the majority of your posts are AtE.
You're not giving reasons for the majority of your reads and the few reasons you have given are largely shallow, surface-level thoughts that have no real depth to them. You're not following through on those thoughts; you're not pushing your reads; you're instead complaining and blaming everyone around you for this.

Which is why I say--if you're town, that's a total failure on your part, where you have every power in the world to have pushed more and done more, but are choosing to blame everyone else, choosing to say it's the fault of the rest of the town rather than your own doing.

But if you're scum, there's no failure at all, because that play is precisely the optimal scum play to make, especially in a game of this nature.

You're doing things that are optimal for scum but are, for a town player, an objective failure of an approach.

The respect I have in your capabilities as a player, the respect I have in your competency,

demands

that in an assessment of your play, balance of probability, that the play that is self-explanatory as scum but which makes no sense as town, is just you as scum.

That's just the instances from my iso, where I quoted posts from ETL and explained why they were scum, why they were easy content that had a greater scum motive than a town one.
I could do it for her

entire

iso, but you're saying I haven't done it for any of her iso, when in fact. I have.
By the way,

farside:

Why are people scum reading EtL?

The above spoiler contains a fair amount of my reasons. Not all of them, because I cased ETL off of posts where I wasn't quoting ETL, but a fair number of them, because a lot of the times I cased her I was quoting her post and explaining why it was more likely to come from scum than town.

[mastina]

Ok Creature might be about to start Town posting.

I was hopeful for this but it seems to have petered off so I'm not convinced he's not scum. Obviously, still willing to wait for more, but nothing in what I saw of his content told me he was definitely town.

[mastina]

wait that's not true
elements isn't always scum, he's just always lynch bait

I'm trying to change my day one play style to make me not as lynchbaity, but it hasn't been working so far.

Meh, discard the Elements lynch option
Still am up for some surprise train on farside though

Just call me disease-proof townie. I won't mind. Really.

Nvm, maybe No Lynch slot is indeed just town

Specifically, these are a promising start from Creature, but there's one

specific

thing I am looking from from Creature, that he has yet to give. I can't say what it is without allowing him to fake it, but basically--if Creature is town, there's something missing from his posts that'd cement him as town.

The lack of that thing doesn't make Creature scum, he can be town without that thing being present, but given his mostly lurk, highly-lackluster content which while having flashes of town like above is mostly nothingness, what I am saying is, in this specific game, it'd take that missing thing being present for me to townread Creature and since it isn't present yet, Creature is not a townread.

[mastina]

I believe the personality of ETL has had a bearing on her play in this game. Which is what explains the reason for things that dont make sense as town but reward as scum IF she is town here. Basically, Early blowup with ML (which happened super quickly) plus the hist of ego make me believe the personality is capable of effecting her play to the extent it has. I do concede you make fair points, hence the vote change.

I don't doubt those things, and actually agree with them--but those things are also things that are explicitly nai-at-best. The best-case scenario for them is that they are things EtL feels that she'd feel regardless of her alignment, because yes, she would and has done this sort of thing as both alignments before. The worst-case scenario is that EtL is in some extent, deliberately putting on an act of sort, where she plays up the 'woe is me' angle.

[mastina]

@Flavor Leaf

; is this your scum game?

I very much doubt it to be honest.

TIME FOR A REVOLUTION

(Ironically, I have a very interesting habit: I'll play a mafia game modded by Alisae that is based off of a video game, without being any way remotely familiar with the source material--until

well after

the game has ended and only much much much later gaining familiarity with it. When I played Alisae's Doki Doki game, had no clue what the flavor was, but then I played the game. When I played Alisae's Persona 5 game, had absolutely zero familiarity with Persona 5 but now I am addicted to watching a streamer who is playing Persona 5 Royal and I love everything about it. If memory serves me, I think my flavor for that Alisae game was Sae Nijima? But I'd have to go back and check.)

[mastina]

Its been so long since I played with Ari @ all. This isn't a meta based scum read, it's just that Ari's not playing and his first post was kinda sus to me.

I mean. As it so happens--Ari not playing is his scum meta and his lackluster content this game strongly indicates that he is probably scum here, so.

(Also, ended up looking it up. Whoops, was wrong on which confidant I was. We were Munehisa Iwai that game.)

[mastina]

I am disappoint that Farside replaced out.

So am I. <3

At least the replacement isn't a downgrade in the competency of the slot. <3

[mastina]

I've been asked to replace out of games before by my team because of inactivity and obliged. I likely would have done the same here. However there was nobody to ask me to do that so I remain

ITT Aristophanes townclears ETL by admitting his entire scumteam is made of lurksacks???




















(I still think it's more likely ETL's scum and Ari if scum just wasn't asked by ETL to leave. But if ETL were town, then this post wouldn't actually be a joke; hard to be asked to leave for inactivity when the entire scumteam is inactive.)

[mastina]

you faked just about everything here because you thought the bonus AtE would get people off your wagon and i feel like that's pretty low

For the record, regardless of ETL's alignment, I'm finally confident enough in Miss Lynch being town to move her up to the locktown tier, joining the likes of Nero and Auro there as never ever ever scum.

Kinda legit hate the way she's claiming to be an EZ read and fully within her town meta.

Because I am, provably and demonstrably so.

whats the thoughts that mastina and fl sitting back means one is probably scum?

Ah yes I am totally sitting back and in no way shape or form even remotely pushing my reads.

she hasn't had townie play this game lol it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if she was doing that thing where you just insist that you're town and act shocked and surprised when people don't believe you're town

I could totally see Mastina going "I'm going to profess my self as town so much that ppl will actually town read me for it." *manical laughter*

I could totally see Mastina going "I'm going to profess my self as town so much that ppl will actually town read me for it." *manical laughter*

Oh, that's definitely inside her range. It's inside FL's range too -- not his play this game but possible.

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[mastina]

I mean. As it so happens--Ari not playing is his scum meta and his lackluster content this game strongly indicates that he is probably scum here, so.

if u felt this why do you ever change your vote to ETL?

Because
1: ETL is a stronger scumread than Aristophanes, and,
2: ETL has a larger wagon than Aristophanes.

If your stronger scumread has a larger wagon on them...why the fuck

wouldn't

you vote them? Your question would honestly make more sense if you asked me why I ever left the ETL wagon at all.

[mastina]

VOTE: TSE
Sheep me

TSE is Vecna, so the slot is town, so no.

Why is no one at L-1 yet? Everyone on the ETL wagon is conftown.

How even do you figure!? XD

I have a wagon-cop-check. The ETL wagon returned and innocent.

Because

that

doesn't sound OP at all
Also, Godfathers and the like exist. Js.

Btw was already planning on voting Ari but posts like this just cement it:
VOTE: Aristophanes.

maybe i was lucky...
or maybe im playing at such a high level mastina and nero cant even comprehend.

So, uh.
Tchill.

I hate to be the type to suggest, "scum scumslipping a post in-thread that was meant for the scum PT", but uh.
Care to offer me an explanation for why this post wouldn't be that?

[mastina]

Btw, infected should claim

I'm not infected yet!

I still stand by my initial assessment yesterday; with ETL as town, scum is by far more likely to be in the lurkers.
The lurkers I am referring to in this case would be {Aristophanes, Creature, Jake, 5G}. Within those four, there should be at least two scum, possibly even all three.

Early scumreads on Auro, Nero Cain, and Vecna (who is now TrueSoulEnergy). Nero felt a bit performative from the start. Auro gave me the impression he wanted to push ETL but was concerned about how people saw him. Vecna's reads just come off as someone who knows more than they're letting on.

None of those reads would remain if you read more of the game because those three slots are by far the most obviously town slots in the entire game.

[mastina]

Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21
davesaz

Saudade
farside22/gobbledygook
Tchill13

Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers

Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

This is about where I am at today. Never-scum, not even infected; locktown; strong town; townreads; weak townreads; nulltown; scumleans; scumreads.

Nothing has changed from my locktown tier above.

Quick and Hoctac are stronger townreads.
My read on the Elements slot has improved, but not to strong town levels. Ditto Alchemist and davesaz.

The farside slot has, notably, plummeted, due to the lack of Turkey's posting. Yes, extenuating circumstances; we lynched shortly after he replaced the slot so he wouldn't have had

much

of an opportunity to have posted, but he replaced in on Mon May 11, 2020 4:36 pm, and we lynched ETL on Wed May 13, 2020 3:38 pm--that was a full two days for him to be available and produce the content we all know from him. That read will continue to plummet if there's a continued lack of content, but will skyrocket back up to the top to be honest if I see what I'm looking for from him.

Tchill's a bit of a weaker read as well, but I admit that is partially due to a post that he made that does sound like it was meant for the scum PT because I can't see the context for what it could've been in response to in this thread. Disregarding the admittedly-likely-not-correct scumslip, though, and he probably wouldn't be much higher since this is about the levels where it feels like he should be.

Saudade struck me as town near the end of yesterday but I don't know him well enough to know for sure how town he is. As full disclosure, I initially had him in the FL/50 Judge Powers tier, but moved him up to where he is because that felt too low for him. I'm not sure if he's still too low or just right, but I do feel like he shouldn't be lower than this.

FL and 50 Judge Powers are basically null at this point. I wouldn't shed tears if they were lynched, though I admit that the four below them I'd want dead first.

Jake is higher than 5G admittedly for a single post he made today which felt lighthearted in a way I am normally inclined to townread, but the utter lack of content still overall lands him in this tier.

5G has done nothing town this game given ETL wasn't scum. 5G's only push, and a very very very weak one at that, was on the slot; 5G hammered ETL unexpectedly and fairly randomly. The overall just utter lack of content, cruising by, earns them that spot.

And I've more or less already gone into Creature and Aristophanes.

[mastina]

I'm pretty sure Tchill was gloating at ETL flipping town rather than scum, give he'd been calling it for the entire day phase. How is that a scumslip?

Oh that would be a plausible explanation.

But, the logic I was going off of, was that Tchill in that post was quoting the mod, and seemingly speaking to someone--like you would in a mafia PT. Speaking to someone, but with no tie to his other posted content. Nothing he said before, or after, that post, was tied to what he said in 2795. He didn't bring it up after the fact, either; it looked like a post he was hoping people would ignore, not notice, etc., because it looked like he was avoiding drawing attention to it; it looked like he made an isolated post that was meant for somewhere else, because of the out-of-place nature of it; with nothing previous leading into it, and nothing after it relating to it, it stuck out.

Which is where I was coming from on that.

[mastina]

Oh! Also.
I typed this up yesterday while I was waiting for the game to end (it was after the hammer vote, so I needed to wait for the mod announcement thus why I PMd the mods of the game to try and hasten their official ending of the game), in defense of myself. Sadly, the thread here locked before I got the chance to post it, butstill thought I'd post it all the same.

Btw I said a while back that I could prove fairly definitively that my scumgame in 2020 has been incredibly lackluster, but I only had two examples at the time I could legally link due to ongoing games (where my slot was flipped scum, so I wasn't condemning my slot by saying I had lackluster games, but couldn't reference them).

Well, now, fresh off the presses, I can finally link a third!

To wit, this was the entirety of my iso in Skyrim UPick.
Go take a look at that game and tell me I put in any amount of effort compared to this game.

This was the entirety of my iso in Saga Mafia.
Go take a look at that game and tell me I put in any amount of effort compared to this game.

And fresh off the presses, here's a third scumgame of mine this year.
I was in a hydra, so let me link you to every single post I made that game:
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4
Post 5
Post 6
Post 7
Post 8
Post 9
Post 10
Post 11
Post 12
Post 13

Those thirteen posts were the entirety of my contribution to the game, save for a couple of posts in the neighborhood. Those posts?

lets go with stoned

What a

weed

codeword to have chosen.

Alisae be a big bulli who bullied the mod.

Gotta say, not an avatar I associate with you RCE but it is certainly something which makes you much much much more town.

That was it.

I realize people tend not to click links, so let me put in spoiler tags the entirety of my thirteen posts in that game to show my contributions to that game as scum:

Spoiler: My scum iso that game

7. Claiming as the picker for another player's claimed character name, whether real or fake, in this thread is NOT ALLOWED.

Seems like a pretty silly rule to be honest because while claiming it might be forbidden, aint nothing stopping at you hinting at it heavily and it can be particularly obvious for certain people. (For instance, if someone had a MHA name, MHA avatar, MHA theme, etc., and they submitted a MHA character...gee, wonder who the MHA flavor was from?)

For instance, if my picks had won the RNG (Alisae and I both submitted two picks and asked the mod to RNG them, Alisae's picks got spot one and two), then it'd have been

pretty

obvious that they were from me.

Monster is the best anime ever.
If you disagree I'm voting you.

Says Monster is the best anime ever, has a FMA avatar, cognitive dissonance = scumtell.
VOTE: AbuHumanoid

Interesting.

Can I just say that I SO strongly associate L with Wisdom and Light with FL that even though I know there's a literal 0% chance of it I keep on thinking that you're a hydra of Wisdom and Flavor Leaf?

i was stoned as fuck when i made this decision

Naturally. No sober player would want this.

Did we all get tricked into thinking the upick was straight up?

Eh I saw it was a shuffle and deduced the probable nature of the mechanic, but I honestly was hoping I was wrong, not gonna lie.

I am so, so tired already.

Understandable!

God this game is gonna be a disaster already.

Is any game not?

Can you let me know when I should actually start reading?

I should pretty much be asking this question of others.

Honestly it did grow fast, but that doesn't really mean much

Pretty much, yeah.

People think "oh, fast wagon, must be bad", but that instinctive gut-reaction is honestly just...bad. Speed of the wagon is honestly 97% of the time utterly meaningless--doesn't make the wagon more likely to contain scum, doesn't make the person wagoned more likely to be town.

I will admit that Wonderful Deceit pushing a townblock at this stage of the game was unnatural.

Eh I wouldn't fault Ali for picking up one of my habits while hydraing with me.

I tried to seriously read the game but I ended up glossing over them. What do?

Mindlessly comment on shit, obv.

Why would mastina inactivity be AI?

It's usually not. It can be, but most of the time it's just rl+mental mindset/health determining activity.

Is it mastina catching up?

I thought that was obvious enough.

Still think I'm bullshitting about not being able to play scum this year after a scumgame like that one?

Still think that my play this game is comparable to my scumgames?

[mastina]

I'm not that interested in your self meta. Showing you have had a lackluster game does nothing to prove that you're not scum posting up a storm in this game.

Sure! But it does show a precedence. It shows a tendency. It sets a record for comparison, which means you've got to ask yourself which is more likely:
Am I scum who, randomly, in spite of having no such scumgames this calendar year, randomly and for no discernible reason, stepped it up this game, something which is particularly jarring given my real-life circumstances incentivize me to be a lurksack (basically, killer depression makes every day a struggle since every day I am having a hard time, something which is easily confirmed by multiple different sources), scum who randomly decided to step up in spite of having every reason not to, for apparently no reason, when I have previously shown I do not have that track record as scum...

...OR, am I town who is playing in the exact same way literally every single towngame of mine has been this year?

Ask me to compare my play from this game to any other towngame I've had in the last two years and there's dozens which match my level of investment and activity and all-around push. Ask me to compare my play from this game to any scumgame I've had in the last two years and none come even remotely close, not a single one.

It is true, yes, I

could

step up my scumgame in any given game.

But the balance of probability suggests that the strong track record I have implies that, no, I won't. This isn't a trust tell, because at any point, as you so mention, I

could

break from the mold as scum. (Not to mention, it's not a conscious choice; trust tells require deliberately sabotaging your play as one alignment to bolster the other and that requires deliberate choice; this isn't one.) But, it's still a very strong, very reliable, way of tracking my alignment in 2020.

Self meta is Scummy.

If my meta were not so critical an indicator of my alignment and such a strong way of proving my town, I'd not bring it up, but it actually really just IS that strong of an indicator. And if any other player were to do the meta research so it wouldn't be self-meta, they'd quickly verify it. It's not like I'm making unverifiable statements.

In my self-meta, I'm not making statements that aren't backed by examples, aren't backed by evidence. In my self-meta, I'm not going, "you should KNOW this is my towngame", and leaving it as that vague generic statement--I'm backing it up with actual

facts

and evidence. There's a huge difference between shit like this:

My scumgame used to be permeated by a lack of actual play and whatnot. That has become my standard as either alignment, and mastina knows this.

...And being able to back it up with examples to demonstrate the differences and similarities between towngames and scumgames.

My towngame is literally night and day different from my scumgame right now.

It

could

change, yes. Magically, mystically, for some unfathomable reason, in this game of all fucking games, in a game I thought was a meme game, I could have randomly decided to suddenly become a tryhard as scum for...some reason which I can't really think of (can't exactly prove my skill as a scum player in a game that is of this nature, so that wouldn't be my reason for tryharding as scum, and yet that's historically the only reason I HAVE tried to tryhard as scum, as proof of my skill at that alignment and this game doesn't have that so fucked if I know what I'd have as motive if not for that).

There's never a world where I can never ever ever be scum who somehow pulled out the performance of a lifetime, no holds barred, full momentum, full time, never relenting, never giving up, pushing from start to finish. There's never a world where that's literally utterly impossible, where there's an absolute 0% chance of that happening.

But like.

It really is just a simple balance of probability; what am I most likely to do as town versus what I am most likely to do as scum.

And right now.
Overwhelmingly.
What I am most likely to do as town is to try, even in scenarios where noone else is; what I am most likely to do as scum is to, with so much as the slightest excuse, put zero effort in and cruise by on the bare minimum required.

I am also a lurker! Active lurker, but a lurker, nonetheless!

True! You'd be in the list of suspects if not for the fact that you're literally an innocent child.

Being an innocent child

pretty

much removes any degree of suspicion on your slot.

You have the profile of the lurkerscum but the inability to actually be lurkerscum--thus, narrows the pool down for who the lurkerscum actually are. (To be honest, you're probably one of the best players to get your role. It'd be a waste on the likes of Nero and such because he'd be obvtown without it. That said, permanent immunity rather than temporary immunity would be useful for power-town players to have.)

[mastina]

Seeking replacements for Elements and Miss Lynch.

this game is a fucking mess.

I mean, those replacements are probably blacklists on TSE, but the replacements before that (farside/Vecna) probably result from some sort of contamination where farside/Vecna both became compromised in some fashion. (Mind you, that says nothing useful for us to know. They could both be scum having learned something they shouldn't, they could both be town having learned something they shouldn't, one could be town and the other scum with them having learned something they shouldn't, one could have learned something about the other from the other that they shouldn't have, and so on and so forth. The point is more or less, those replacements were probably not requests to replace out so much as necessary, but unfortunate, ones, for game integrity. I'm sure we'll learn more about these postgame but until then obviously not something to really discuss much.)

Not gonna lie, this game might have the necessary level of votecounts for the pace, but there's definitely some sloppy/messy/not-optimal modding going on, e.g.:

@mod would the infected know they are infected?

Answered via PM.
~Covid 19

There's literally no reason this should ever be answered by PM because it is absolutely something that should either be fully public or fully not public and thus pertinent only to those "in the know". Trying to take a middle ground between the two is worthless because everyone can ask the mod via PM, and simply share their answers, as there is no true way to enforce silence and even if there was, it's shitty moderation to try because it limits the players in an artificial way unconductive to them playing the game.

So basically: yeah it is a mess. Obviously, I reserve the right to retract this conclusion as I am a player; I don't know everything going on, and only the mod does. But I very very VERY strongly suspect that, come postgame, I'll have no need to retract this statement and in fact every reason to reinforce the statement.

(I should also make a note that in my critiques I tend to have a very negative tone about my criticisms, being rather harsh and emphasizing the bad, so I feel the need to make a disclaimer that even if I do conclude precisely the above, that the game had some very messy modding in multiple key areas, I feel the need to point out not everything about this game is bad and there are multiple positives to it, which I could compile a list of postgame. The good and bad go hand-in-hand; I tend to point out the bad because it's in areas where the moderator can improve, but there's still good with it. Just...also bad.)

[mastina]

Wasn't in love with Masina's reaction to getting scum read and the "as promised" seems slimey to me.

It's the most effective defense I have. (Well, that, or claiming. Not sure if the locksolid meta of the night/day difference between my towngames/scumgames, or roleclaiming, is the better defense, but between the two, those are definitely the most effective defense I have--and given that I'd very much rather avoid the claiming defense, I opt for the far-more-readily-available, much-easier defense to put forward.)

Mind you, "most effective" does not mean "only". I can point out multiple things that, fuck meta, are objectively town things I have done, it's just that those defenses are weaker than the meta ones and also things I'd rather not spend time on. Self-meta takes me ten minutes tops to do because I know my own meta well enough to reference it at the drop of a dime. Towncasing myself disregarding meta is ten times harder and takes two-hundred times longer to do because it requires 1: going through the game, 2: figuring out how to

remove

meta from the defense (which is hard to do since a lot of the things that make me town are already a part of the meta towncase), 3: type it all up, and probably more that I'm not remembering.

And I have better things to spend my time on, namely, scumhunting.

At this stage, I feel like there are many many many reads of mine which are, in various ways, having some flux to them, and I feel like that's important for me to go into depth about. It's mostly about townreads, and the doubts I have on them, and determining if those doubts are sound or if those doubts are just paranoia. (Most of my scumreads have pretty much no doubt.)

To reference my last readslist:

Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21
davesaz

Saudade
farside22/gobbledygook
Tchill13

Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers

Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

I have zero doubts about anyone in the Miss Lynch/OkaPoka tier and above. Nero Cain this game is absolutely never scum. No lynch/Voted is literally an innocent child and thus cannot be scum. Auro is also at locktown of locktown stages (and frankly deserves to be protected by a doctor given just how town he is--Vecna versus Auro would've been tough to choose on, but while TSE is just as town Vecna's a better gamesolver than TSE whereas Auro is comparable to Vecna); this is not him as scum. Vecna was firmly in his towngame and literally nothing TSE could do would ever ruin my townread there (not that TSE could, given that TSE is also playing to

his

towngame, too).

Miss Lynch was also in this tier due to everything being town, and also being town for Enter. OkaPoka's posting also continues the trend, as he is playing in a way that I don't think he does if he were scum.


When it comes to everyone below that tier, there's obviously doubts on everyone, save for Creature and Aristophanes (who I remain pretty sure are scum--not 100% absolutely, I do have doubts, but those doubts are paranoia more than legitimate).


Quick has been overwhelmingly acting as I would expect him to if he were town, from my memory of him as a player. Everything he does just radiates the aura of being town, and his progression in reads displays a nuance I wouldn't expect him to be able to display as scum. He has reads and reasons that show a trajectory of thought to them that, moonlogicky as they can be, have a reasonability to them that show what appears to be actual, genuine thought in them, in a way that I don't think he can fake as scum.

The doubt comes from a combination of not having seen him play in a long time, not being all to familiar with him now, not having perfect memory of him, others having displayed suspicion on him and many of said players suspecting him also being townreads and me wanting to trust their assessments of him, and that it's not utterly impossible for a scum player to play the way he has.

He is my strongest non-locktown read because while those aforementioned doubts are strong enough to keep him from being in the locktown tier, I feel like they are more in the realm of paranoia than reasonable doubt.


Hoctac is also equally as town to Quick, due to a similar presence. Hoctac's posts contain a unique mixture of shitposting and gamesolving in a way that is incredibly hard to balance as scum, and I can trace where Hoctac's more serious gamesolving posts come from as well as see why Hoctac's less serious posts are being made. Overwhelmingly, Hoctac radiates the aura of a town player who is at ease in this game, and I struggle to see how scum could do what Hoctac has done so fluently and naturally.

The doubt here comes from utter unfamiliarity with Hoctac as a player. I have no clue what Hoctac is like as town and scum, no frame of reference for whether this is normal from him as any alignment, no real idea of whether Hoctac is town or scum by meta. (Plus, multiple slots being suspicious of him and me wanting to trust that they're onto something with said suspicion, and him being a borderline-lurker.) I will say that, disregarding meta, Hoctac would be one of my strongest townreads this game, and it is only this lack of familiarity with meta keeping Hoctac from being locktown.

Given that, that suspicion is firmly in the realms of mostly-paranoia.


Elements might've initially struck my scumdar, but later Elements posting greatly improved this read, because it actually looked like what I expect from Elements when he is town: radiating the aura of mislynch bait, but with content that shows a town mindset to it rather than a scum one. This was enough for a reasonably strong read.

Nahdia since then has been largely net-neutral to that read, neither strengthening it nor really weakening it, doing pretty much nothing to the slot, outside of paranoia of "what if I was wrong?" due to Nahdia not being as gamesolvey as I would like. So maybe, maybe a bit weaker than when the slot was Elements, but if so, due to feelings that are more borne from paranoia than anything else. The doubts I get from Nahdia don't actually feel like they're alignment indicative, so much as it is I am probably doubting Nahdia for being...well, Nahdia. So given that the doubts probably spurn from paranoia rather than reasonable doubts, the townread remains fairly strong.


Alchemist21 is below Nahdia for good reason. I initially thought that this might be a lurker-scumgame from Alchemist, and that feeling hasn't entirely subsided. He's still overall fairly lowkey this game and things feel like he

could

be a scum player contributing to the scum planning. He's the first read where I feel like my doubts aren't paranoia, but actually reasonable doubts to have due to him not radiating town everywhere. With Alch, instead of radiating town, it's more like we get bouts, small bursts where he shows he's more likely town, followed by a bunch of posts (or even a lack thereof) that basically nullify that boon. There's also a number of slots that have held him as suspicious, too.

...But, that having been said: I just get the gut feeling that Alch is town here. He's one of the strongest gut-based townreads that I have in this game. If not THE strongest gut-townread I have. It's just, between not thinking this is his scumgame and thinking that he looks town, I get the strong sense that he is town.


davesaz is definitely below Nahdia, albeit not by much, but I'm not actually sure if he's below, above, or equal to Alch in levels of townness. I will say that, overwhelmingly, he does feel town to me, but I admit, this is actually more effort than I'd expect from davesaz in a game--that's counterbalanced though by it being more effort than I'd expect from davesaz

regardless of his alignment

, so that means regardless of town or scum, he's performing at a higher level than I would expect, meaning that tryharding is almost assuredly not a scumtell.

Basically, my doubts on davesaz come from: I'm not intimately familiar with his meta; I don't expect him to perform at this high of a level; there are many players suspicious of him and I want to trust that they are onto something; I don't think I have a historically good davesaz read-rate so my townread on him could be an erroneous one borne from me not knowing how to read him.

I don't think these fears are entirely unfounded, so it's not

entirely

paranoia, but I think it's so close to being basically paranoia that it might as well be paranoia. By and large, this feels like a case where he should be town, because my reasons for thinking he wouldn't be are, by and large, not solid, and self-evidently flawed. With the reasons to think that he's not town being self-evidently flawed, and the reason that I think he's town being fairly solid (he's putting in a strong performance here when he has little reason to as scum), that means that balance of probability, he is far more likely to be town than scum.


Saudade is where he is at for good reason. I'm tempted to die on a hill and double down on defending him here because yes I see he is being wagoned right now (I was caught up as of me starting to post, that is, I read everything before 3245--haven't read the stuff after that, will do so after finishing here), but truth be told he's one of my most-conflicted reads. This entire tier, him, the farside slot, FL (he's listed below in a tier but he's also among the conflicted reads), and Tchill, are precisely that;

Of all the reads in the game, these four are the three I am most back-and-forth on.

Saudade in particular, I did initially scumread him and his content, but his later posting showed a direction that I thought was town-indicative. But, I am very much not familiar with him as a player and there's a wagon on him driven by multiple players who I trust to be town, and also to be more familiar with him, and those are reasonable doubts to have.


farside radiated town to me, but never to the extent where I could locktown her as part of the locktown tier. She may have been one of my strongest townreads in the non-locktown tier, but Turkey has utterly killed that townread altogether--the turkey that I am seeing here is

not

the Turkey that I've come to know and respect as one of the best scumhunters in 2020. The Turkey that I know is hyper-active, a hyper-poster who produces boatloads of content and is one of the best damn solvers around. This Turkey has done none of that. The Turkey I know is utterly an overachiever, putting in a ton of extra effort into games; this game he...isn't.

This is pretty much entirely a debate of replacement versus original holder of the slot. If I were judging by farside's content, I'd call the slot rock-solid town; judging by Turkey's content, I'd call the slot arguably just as strong a scumread as the likes of Creature and Aristophanes.


Tchill's too low on the list as posted above, since he should be above both farside/Turkey and Saudade. By content and by meta, he'd be a townread because I've liked what I've seen and from what I know of his meta this looks to be him as town since it doesn't seem to match what I know of his scumgame. He's similar in Quick in how he's someone that is producing thoughts that, while I may not agree with, I understand where they come from and can trace the thought of, and is incredibly active, and has a meta that I have some awareness of but not perfect awareness of.

It is that lack of perfect awareness, similarly to Quick, where the doubt on the townread comes from. He is someone who could be hyper-active scum; of all the slots in the game, if this game were to have a hyperactive scum, he is by FAR the most probable contender. I am not intimately familiar with his meta, and his content is not something scum could never ever produce, and those who scumread him do bring up some valid criticisms of his play, and I want to have faith that they are onto something.

So, the doubts on him don't feel like they're paranoia, but on the other hand, in spite of the doubts feeling reasonable, not feeling like paranoia, they also don't feel right to me, because him being town feels right. He's definitely not the strongest gut-townread I have, but I'd say he's among them, because while I may not have any solid evidence that this is him as town, it

feels

like he's town. I still have twangs of doubt, where I think, "what if he's scum? He could be, given X Y Z", but overall he's more town than scum to me.


FL is...well. Flavor Leaf. If you think that he's an easy read in general, it's a dubious claim at best. Saying he's an easy read in

this

game would make you an outright fucking liar because he isn't. I still lean town on him more than scum, but like. *hitoshrug* It's very hard to get a read here.


50 Judge Powers is a read which is weaker so the low placement is appropriate, but unlike the reads above, this one doesn't have much doubt to it so much as it is, that's basically the only really appropriate read to hold I feel. I feel like Almost50's content this game isn't enough to earn him a locktown or lockscum status, but between my own read and wanting to trust the others' reads on him, I do think town is more likely than scum, albeit not to the same margin as some others who have him as town.


Jake the Wolfie is a case of a read whose contributions shifted overnight. On D1 Jake was a lurksack of lurksacks, doing absolutely fuckall of anything, being a worthless zero-content slot who never did anything. While the current Jake of D2 hasn't been the MOST content-filled, there's a night and day difference, because this Jake I get townie vibes from his posting and what he's doing, and that he's been giving things which look town.

If Jake has a meta of being a lurker as town and active as scum, my read on Jake would be that Jake was the N1 infect, originally town but currently not town. But otherwise, if that's not Jake's meta, then...fucked if I know. The improvement makes it less likely that he's an original groupscum, but I have no clue.


5G has done basically nothing town the entire game other than lurk. This isn't a lockscum read, but more a POE solve read, in that I have townreads on most of the other players and 5G is not among them.


momo, I feel like I had a legitimate initial reason for the scumread on the slot: momo confirmed, but never posted. Creature came in and then proceeded to...lurk. While Creature has stepped up more recently and his meta has changed, where he can have inactive towngames and hyperactive scumgames, he still has the tendency to, as scum, not give effort in a game until there is a need to give it--which fits this game.

Moreover, there is a particular thing that I look for from Creature when he is town compared to when he is scum--and even in his more recent posting, this is absent. I'll hint at this when I quote his posts in a bit (after I finish this wall, I've still got pages of pages to respond to and the content I am referring to is in there), but basically, there is a critical factor that is absent from Creature that I'd expect to see if he were town, and simply put, I haven't seen him yet.


Aristophanes is, simply put, in his scum meta. This is him as scum. I'm not referring to the utter lack of content from him, though that is a contributing factor; the content he

has

given is

still

his scumgame. Basically, there's Aristophanes scumtells unrelated to activity, and he's tripping them. (That said, yes, the lack of content from him is still, contrary to his assertions, an indicator that he's scum. Similarly to Creature above, just because his meta has shifted where he can be hyperactive as scum and can be a lurksack as town does not mean he doesn't have a predisposition to vastly favor being a lurksack as scum.)

[mastina]

Spoiler: Breakdown of reads on every single slot on the game

To reference my last readslist:

Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21
davesaz

Saudade
farside22/gobbledygook
Tchill13

Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers

Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

I have zero doubts about anyone in the Miss Lynch/OkaPoka tier and above. Nero Cain this game is absolutely never scum. No lynch/Voted is literally an innocent child and thus cannot be scum. Auro is also at locktown of locktown stages (and frankly deserves to be protected by a doctor given just how town he is--Vecna versus Auro would've been tough to choose on, but while TSE is just as town Vecna's a better gamesolver than TSE whereas Auro is comparable to Vecna); this is not him as scum. Vecna was firmly in his towngame and literally nothing TSE could do would ever ruin my townread there (not that TSE could, given that TSE is also playing to

his

towngame, too).

Miss Lynch was also in this tier due to everything being town, and also being town for Enter. OkaPoka's posting also continues the trend, as he is playing in a way that I don't think he does if he were scum.


When it comes to everyone below that tier, there's obviously doubts on everyone, save for Creature and Aristophanes (who I remain pretty sure are scum--not 100% absolutely, I do have doubts, but those doubts are paranoia more than legitimate).


Quick has been overwhelmingly acting as I would expect him to if he were town, from my memory of him as a player. Everything he does just radiates the aura of being town, and his progression in reads displays a nuance I wouldn't expect him to be able to display as scum. He has reads and reasons that show a trajectory of thought to them that, moonlogicky as they can be, have a reasonability to them that show what appears to be actual, genuine thought in them, in a way that I don't think he can fake as scum.

The doubt comes from a combination of not having seen him play in a long time, not being all to familiar with him now, not having perfect memory of him, others having displayed suspicion on him and many of said players suspecting him also being townreads and me wanting to trust their assessments of him, and that it's not utterly impossible for a scum player to play the way he has.

He is my strongest non-locktown read because while those aforementioned doubts are strong enough to keep him from being in the locktown tier, I feel like they are more in the realm of paranoia than reasonable doubt.


Hoctac is also equally as town to Quick, due to a similar presence. Hoctac's posts contain a unique mixture of shitposting and gamesolving in a way that is incredibly hard to balance as scum, and I can trace where Hoctac's more serious gamesolving posts come from as well as see why Hoctac's less serious posts are being made. Overwhelmingly, Hoctac radiates the aura of a town player who is at ease in this game, and I struggle to see how scum could do what Hoctac has done so fluently and naturally.

The doubt here comes from utter unfamiliarity with Hoctac as a player. I have no clue what Hoctac is like as town and scum, no frame of reference for whether this is normal from him as any alignment, no real idea of whether Hoctac is town or scum by meta. (Plus, multiple slots being suspicious of him and me wanting to trust that they're onto something with said suspicion, and him being a borderline-lurker.) I will say that, disregarding meta, Hoctac would be one of my strongest townreads this game, and it is only this lack of familiarity with meta keeping Hoctac from being locktown.

Given that, that suspicion is firmly in the realms of mostly-paranoia.


Elements might've initially struck my scumdar, but later Elements posting greatly improved this read, because it actually looked like what I expect from Elements when he is town: radiating the aura of mislynch bait, but with content that shows a town mindset to it rather than a scum one. This was enough for a reasonably strong read.

Nahdia since then has been largely net-neutral to that read, neither strengthening it nor really weakening it, doing pretty much nothing to the slot, outside of paranoia of "what if I was wrong?" due to Nahdia not being as gamesolvey as I would like. So maybe, maybe a bit weaker than when the slot was Elements, but if so, due to feelings that are more borne from paranoia than anything else. The doubts I get from Nahdia don't actually feel like they're alignment indicative, so much as it is I am probably doubting Nahdia for being...well, Nahdia. So given that the doubts probably spurn from paranoia rather than reasonable doubts, the townread remains fairly strong.


Alchemist21 is below Nahdia for good reason. I initially thought that this might be a lurker-scumgame from Alchemist, and that feeling hasn't entirely subsided. He's still overall fairly lowkey this game and things feel like he

could

be a scum player contributing to the scum planning. He's the first read where I feel like my doubts aren't paranoia, but actually reasonable doubts to have due to him not radiating town everywhere. With Alch, instead of radiating town, it's more like we get bouts, small bursts where he shows he's more likely town, followed by a bunch of posts (or even a lack thereof) that basically nullify that boon. There's also a number of slots that have held him as suspicious, too.

...But, that having been said: I just get the gut feeling that Alch is town here. He's one of the strongest gut-based townreads that I have in this game. If not THE strongest gut-townread I have. It's just, between not thinking this is his scumgame and thinking that he looks town, I get the strong sense that he is town.


davesaz is definitely below Nahdia, albeit not by much, but I'm not actually sure if he's below, above, or equal to Alch in levels of townness. I will say that, overwhelmingly, he does feel town to me, but I admit, this is actually more effort than I'd expect from davesaz in a game--that's counterbalanced though by it being more effort than I'd expect from davesaz

regardless of his alignment

, so that means regardless of town or scum, he's performing at a higher level than I would expect, meaning that tryharding is almost assuredly not a scumtell.

Basically, my doubts on davesaz come from: I'm not intimately familiar with his meta; I don't expect him to perform at this high of a level; there are many players suspicious of him and I want to trust that they are onto something; I don't think I have a historically good davesaz read-rate so my townread on him could be an erroneous one borne from me not knowing how to read him.

I don't think these fears are entirely unfounded, so it's not

entirely

paranoia, but I think it's so close to being basically paranoia that it might as well be paranoia. By and large, this feels like a case where he should be town, because my reasons for thinking he wouldn't be are, by and large, not solid, and self-evidently flawed. With the reasons to think that he's not town being self-evidently flawed, and the reason that I think he's town being fairly solid (he's putting in a strong performance here when he has little reason to as scum), that means that balance of probability, he is far more likely to be town than scum.


Saudade is where he is at for good reason. I'm tempted to die on a hill and double down on defending him here because yes I see he is being wagoned right now (I was caught up as of me starting to post, that is, I read everything before 3245--haven't read the stuff after that, will do so after finishing here), but truth be told he's one of my most-conflicted reads. This entire tier, him, the farside slot, FL (he's listed below in a tier but he's also among the conflicted reads), and Tchill, are precisely that;

Of all the reads in the game, these four are the three I am most back-and-forth on.

Saudade in particular, I did initially scumread him and his content, but his later posting showed a direction that I thought was town-indicative. But, I am very much not familiar with him as a player and there's a wagon on him driven by multiple players who I trust to be town, and also to be more familiar with him, and those are reasonable doubts to have.


farside radiated town to me, but never to the extent where I could locktown her as part of the locktown tier. She may have been one of my strongest townreads in the non-locktown tier, but Turkey has utterly killed that townread altogether--the turkey that I am seeing here is

not

the Turkey that I've come to know and respect as one of the best scumhunters in 2020. The Turkey that I know is hyper-active, a hyper-poster who produces boatloads of content and is one of the best damn solvers around. This Turkey has done none of that. The Turkey I know is utterly an overachiever, putting in a ton of extra effort into games; this game he...isn't.

This is pretty much entirely a debate of replacement versus original holder of the slot. If I were judging by farside's content, I'd call the slot rock-solid town; judging by Turkey's content, I'd call the slot arguably just as strong a scumread as the likes of Creature and Aristophanes.


Tchill's too low on the list as posted above, since he should be above both farside/Turkey and Saudade. By content and by meta, he'd be a townread because I've liked what I've seen and from what I know of his meta this looks to be him as town since it doesn't seem to match what I know of his scumgame. He's similar in Quick in how he's someone that is producing thoughts that, while I may not agree with, I understand where they come from and can trace the thought of, and is incredibly active, and has a meta that I have some awareness of but not perfect awareness of.

It is that lack of perfect awareness, similarly to Quick, where the doubt on the townread comes from. He is someone who could be hyper-active scum; of all the slots in the game, if this game were to have a hyperactive scum, he is by FAR the most probable contender. I am not intimately familiar with his meta, and his content is not something scum could never ever produce, and those who scumread him do bring up some valid criticisms of his play, and I want to have faith that they are onto something.

So, the doubts on him don't feel like they're paranoia, but on the other hand, in spite of the doubts feeling reasonable, not feeling like paranoia, they also don't feel right to me, because him being town feels right. He's definitely not the strongest gut-townread I have, but I'd say he's among them, because while I may not have any solid evidence that this is him as town, it

feels

like he's town. I still have twangs of doubt, where I think, "what if he's scum? He could be, given X Y Z", but overall he's more town than scum to me.


FL is...well. Flavor Leaf. If you think that he's an easy read in general, it's a dubious claim at best. Saying he's an easy read in

this

game would make you an outright fucking liar because he isn't. I still lean town on him more than scum, but like. *hitoshrug* It's very hard to get a read here.


50 Judge Powers is a read which is weaker so the low placement is appropriate, but unlike the reads above, this one doesn't have much doubt to it so much as it is, that's basically the only really appropriate read to hold I feel. I feel like Almost50's content this game isn't enough to earn him a locktown or lockscum status, but between my own read and wanting to trust the others' reads on him, I do think town is more likely than scum, albeit not to the same margin as some others who have him as town.


Jake the Wolfie is a case of a read whose contributions shifted overnight. On D1 Jake was a lurksack of lurksacks, doing absolutely fuckall of anything, being a worthless zero-content slot who never did anything. While the current Jake of D2 hasn't been the MOST content-filled, there's a night and day difference, because this Jake I get townie vibes from his posting and what he's doing, and that he's been giving things which look town.

If Jake has a meta of being a lurker as town and active as scum, my read on Jake would be that Jake was the N1 infect, originally town but currently not town. But otherwise, if that's not Jake's meta, then...fucked if I know. The improvement makes it less likely that he's an original groupscum, but I have no clue.


5G has done basically nothing town the entire game other than lurk. This isn't a lockscum read, but more a POE solve read, in that I have townreads on most of the other players and 5G is not among them.


momo, I feel like I had a legitimate initial reason for the scumread on the slot: momo confirmed, but never posted. Creature came in and then proceeded to...lurk. While Creature has stepped up more recently and his meta has changed, where he can have inactive towngames and hyperactive scumgames, he still has the tendency to, as scum, not give effort in a game until there is a need to give it--which fits this game.

Moreover, there is a particular thing that I look for from Creature when he is town compared to when he is scum--and even in his more recent posting, this is absent. I'll hint at this when I quote his posts in a bit (after I finish this wall, I've still got pages of pages to respond to and the content I am referring to is in there), but basically, there is a critical factor that is absent from Creature that I'd expect to see if he were town, and simply put, I haven't seen him yet.


Aristophanes is, simply put, in his scum meta. This is him as scum. I'm not referring to the utter lack of content from him, though that is a contributing factor; the content he

has

given is

still

his scumgame. Basically, there's Aristophanes scumtells unrelated to activity, and he's tripping them. (That said, yes, the lack of content from him is still, contrary to his assertions, an indicator that he's scum. Similarly to Creature above, just because his meta has shifted where he can be hyperactive as scum and can be a lurksack as town does not mean he doesn't have a predisposition to vastly favor being a lurksack as scum.)

To put that into an updated readslist:
Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21 + davesaz

Tchill13

Saudade
farside22/gobbledygook

Flavor Leaf
50 Judge Powers

Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower

momo/Creature
Aristophanes

Very loosely. As I said, Nero and Voted cannot be scum; Auro, TSE, and Oka weren't starting scum but god only knows who was infected.
Quick and Hoctac strongest townreads with virtually zero doubts; Nahdia, Alch, and davesaz pretty strong townreads but not to the 'strongest' townreads with slightly greater (but still more paranoia than not) doubts. Tchill probably town but with some small doubts; Saudade a townread but with doubts; farside/Turkey a literal divide in the occupier of the slot; FL and 50 Judge both weak town; Jake null; 5G nullscum; Creature and Aristophanes solidly scum.

[mastina]

So like, why does a post like that make me even more likely to be scum in your eyes?

It's part of a non-activity scumtell I have on you.

It's not an absolute 100%-guaranteed-accurate-lockscum tell, but it

is

a solid 75-90%ish sure indicator of you being scum here--and respectfully, I'm not your scumbuddy here so I am under no obligation to out it. I can, and will, if I need to. But I would prefer to lynch you without resorting to outing the tell, because I would

prefer

to lynch you based on the merits everyone can see about you and still have the tell in my arsenal in future games and not give you the chance to correct it.

Quoting the post is, at this time, the only hint you'll get as to the nature of the tell.

So, to answer you: if you are town, I understand why you are asking and the value that'd have to a town-you. But because I think you are more likely scum here, and I'd rather not out the tell if I don't have to, I must decline, sorry.

[mastina]

1. Creature - meta says scum, can't remember a single useful post
4. 5G Tower - scum tinted hammer, yet another slot with no explicitly town behavior
5. Jake the Wolfie - only on number 5 and this is the 4th slot with no useful posts
6. Aristophanes - fits in the category with Auro where there are some townish things but I'd be hard pressed to remember a stance from him
10. Alchemist21 - another in the Auro/Ari category where occasionally a post will look vaguely town but darned if I can remember them
12. Flavor Leaf - I'm getting a strong "buried in RL stuff" vibe. Lacks any purpose which could mean town given that he tends to actively drive chaos when scum
13. gobbledygook - replaced who? Has he posted?
16. 50 Judge Powers - feels town by meta. I feel confident I'd recognize scum 50

The lurkers need to post

useful stuff

or perish. That means taking stances on reads and backing those stances up with evidence.

Realtalk here by the way.
I know people are like, "policy lynches are bad!!!", but like.
Legitimately.

I feel like we net 2-3 of the original scumteam by adapting the policy of "Lynch All Lurkers".
Yes, we would also hit town with that policy, and a fair number of them, too. (Notably, I agree with the take on FL and I very much want to trust dave's take on Almost50 so if you remove those two, you get the lurker pool of {Creature, 5G, Jake, Aristophanes, Alch, Turkey}, and of those the only one I would defend myself is Alchemist, so in the pool of Creature/5G/Jake/Ari/Turkey I'd expect to hit 2-3 scum.)

But I sincerely feel that a strategic implementation of Lynch All Lurkers, scummiest lurker to least scummy Lurker, would net us the original scum. At least two of them but honestly? Probably just legit all three.

I really DO think that the scumteam this game IS in the lurkers, barring the possibility of one of them being in the outliers (e.g. the likes of Tchill/Saudade being scum).

[mastina]

If scum wanted to mislynch potential power town as defined by reputation alone, who are the top 3 candidates for potential power town?

Since you opened this question to others, figured I'd give an answer:
Nero Cain and Auro easily fit two of the slots for powertown.
FL in the minds of

some

players could be, but in my mind is not and even were he, in

this

game, wouldn't be.
Vecna and Miss Lynch could both have fought for the slot of powertown while here, but because neither is in the game anymore, the third slot has to belong to someone else as neither of their replacements qualify.

So the third powertown would be Turkey (gobbledygook).

Notably, you may note there's a huge difference between all of the other powertown (Nero and Auro still in the game, Vecna and Miss Lynch while they were in the game), and Turkey.

You can see then why Turkey has singlehandedly killed the townread I had on farside as a consequence--Turkey as I know him is indisputably one of the top three powertown in the game. The Turkey I've seen thusfar in this game?

...Isn't that.

[mastina]

mastina is really missing an important key that makes her feel like scum

This is my line for your play.

Yep, mastina is really skeptical

Oh my god, you suck. I retract my townread on EspeciallyALiar

Auro can die

like I pointed out it was the lack of scum motivation with ETL that made her town. VOTE: mastina

Still up for this, Tchill?

Both Creature and Aristophanes are highly likely to be scum here

That wasn't a great page opening...

are people still scum reading mastina?

I dunno, only post count and insane walls are making her look town

2. Auro
4. 5G Tower
6. Aristophanes
10. Alchemist21
12. Flavor Leaf
13. gobbledygook
16. 50 Judge Powers
17. mastina
19. Nero Cain
20. Tchill13
21. Saudade

These all contain some instances of what I mean. Of something being absent from Creature's play this game that'd be present in his towngame.

[mastina]

you know I TRIED to explain this same concept regarding ETL. You trying to use that same logic here to get others to tr you based on meta is what i was trying to do with etl based on percieved personality with ETL. You were having none of that.

Not exactly. Saying I was having none of it implies that I thought the argument of reading someone based on perceived personality had no merit. It's quite the opposite--I thought it had more merit than any other method in the game, but I thought that said personality indicated she'd be scum, not town.

And I stated as much yesterday; I went into why the perceptions of personality for ETL indicated she was more likely to be scum than town. You argued that it made her town, I argued that it made her scum. We were both using the same logic but coming to opposite conclusions using it. Obviously, yours was right and mine was wrong, that goes without saying--but that doesn't mean the logic used isn't solid logic to base a read off of.

[mastina]

Does mastina have BoP?

The funny thing is if you talk to the people who scumread me every single game they scumread me, almost unanimously they say yes I do; in almost every single game that players defend me, almost unanimously, they say no I don't. There are some fringe cases where people scumread me and say "mastina doesn't need to be wrong to be scum, she's just scum here anyway", and there are some fringe cases where people townread me and insist that BoP IS still valid, saying more or less, "yes, mastina is accountable to BoP, but she's still town here", and as is usually the case the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

In the last two years. From 2019 through 2020. I have had an

amazing

string of towngames. In like, what, 30 towngames over those two years? Some number around there, I can probably count on a single hand the number of games where I wasn't proud of my performance in them. That means that in less than six games, in 1-5 of about 30 games, BoP would've been erroneous on me because I sucked, but in the rest, ~25-29 of them, BoP to some extend did apply, where if I was wrong that could've been a scumtell but I

wasn't

wrong.

And yet.

It should go without saying that there's damn good reasons that in 2019 and 2020 I have not been nominated for Paragon of Scumhunters--because while I am

good

at being town, I am, most decidedly, conclusively, definitively, not at

Paragon

-levels of good. I am not a Paragon-level scumhunter who is right disproportionately compared to when I am wrong. Which means, in every game, every single game, I make mistakes. In every single game, every single towngame. I am wrong about

at least

one read, if not more. I don't have ANY perfect towngames where I nailed the entirety of the scumteam and called the entire town, town.

So in every game, even if I was 90% accurate, that inaccuracy is where the faultiness of BoP comes into play. Let's say in a game I was 90% correct, but the 10% I was wrong on was revealed first--if people tried to BoP me in that game, pointing out the 10% I happened to be wrong on, that'd be a disservice to the 90% I was right on.

My actual accuracy though is, of course, not nearly that high. If I had to guess, my reads usually have around a 60-80% accuracy rate. My townplay is much, much, much stronger and better overall in the last two years, but it is by no means perfect. It's

good

, and it's

better

, but it's to the point where instead of being "average at best" in reads, with me having reads on average that were below random in accuracy, it's more in the range of "probably

at least

average, possibly better than average".

I catch scum more often than not, and townread town far more often than not. (My townhunting is, very notably, much better than my scumhunting. I'd consider a single scum in my locktown to be more of a failure on my part than three town in my lockscum, because I expect to be wrong in my scumreads every game to some extent; I expect to be right in my strongest townreads every game with no exceptions.)

But,
1: I am inconsistent; one game I might only catch 1/3 scum and another game I can have all three dead in my sights;
2: I am imperfect even at my best, not having dead-on accuracy;
3: It needs to go in with the understanding that my solid townhunting is better than my scumhunting;
4: It needs to take into account the strength of my stated read. (If I am wrong about a locktown read, then you can probably BoP me--if I am wrong about a nulltown read, then you can fuck off with any accusations of "mastina was wrong about this townread, therefore she must be scum".)

So basically, CAN you BoP me? In very very select circumstances? Yes. There are some things I am disproportionately more likely to be right on than others.
In most circumstances? No, doing so would be a mistake.

[mastina]

we will start with this contradiction to begin with.

Those aren't contradictions; they are augmentations.
I am in fact, unfamiliar with ETL's meta as it is right now--I stated so on multiple occasions and never once stated otherwise.
I stated my understanding and experience of ETL's meta, and how my understanding and experience of ETL's meta made me think this was null-at-best, but probably scum from her.

These do not in any way contradict one another because I made it very clear I was working from my memory of her, while also making it unambiguous that, yes, I fully acknowledged that my memory of her was a flawed metric to judge her by--it just so happened to be the only metric I had available to me.

I only had the past metric at my disposal, and was using that past metric. I never once stated otherwise.

[mastina]

why are you entertaining setup spec from someone you KNOW is scum?

That post was the opposite of entertaining setup spec from ETL? No literally. It was shutting down the setup spec, not entertaining it.

[mastina]

Everything she's accusing ETL of is something anyone can do or achieve as scum.

Exactly my point?

You're arguing that I was calling ETL scum for things only ETL could do, when I made it quite clear that the things ETL was doing would trip my scumdar coming from just about

any

player.

[mastina]

That said, you have never seen me as Scum AFAIK.

Considering that I'm mastin2 and before that Mastin and you used to be LicketyQuickety, I'm pretty sure I have. Between alts, modding, games I was spectating, I don't think it's possible I never saw you as scum, that literally every time I watched you you were town.

[mastina]

ok mastina those are a lot of words but from a quick glance your reasoning for scumreads refer to metatells that im not aware of so ?

As always, my reads are not exclusively meta. My reads are things that I would be scumreading/townreading

any

player for, which happen to then either be significantly strengthened or significantly weakened by meta. In this case, mostly strengthened.

The content from players like Creature and Aristophanes would be scumread regardless of the scummer making them, but meta just so happens to make it so that their content gives them a much higher chance of being scum.

Similarly, the content from players like Auro, Nero, Miss Lynch's slot, Vecna's slot, and the like would be townread regardless of the scummers making them, but meta just so

happens

to support that, yes, that's their townplay rather than their scumplay.

[mastina]

mastina can you elaborate on why you like to elaborate so much

Sure can! It's due to being autistic, and feeling a compulsion to convey the concepts in my brain to perfect clarity. To put that in different words, I explain things as my first language being "concepts", and every time I type something, I am doing my best to 'translate' the concepts in my mind, into English words.

But things get Lost In Translation, because you can never perfectly translate things from one language to another, so some of the nuances, finer points, specifics, and so on and so forth from the original thought as it existed in conceptual form, are lost when I translate it into word form. And this 'corrupted data', so to speak, is something I strive to then try and recover. Sometimes successfully, often times not. Which is where the elaboration comes from.

That, plus on a different note--this is obviously mixed in a little bit with some Narcissism (or a concept close thereto; someone once linked to a concept not called Narcissism but which is a close cousin thereof and at the time they did I actually went "hey, that sounds a lot like what I am like"), in that I love to share details about myself to others, but also:

I believe there is a magic to be had in talking. Just talking to others. Mafia is many many many things, but it is in part a Social Game. Social games require interacting with others, aka, socializing. You socialize by talking. So to socialize...I talk. I believe there is a magic to be had in talking, that allows people who otherwise would have no common ground, to find common ground. Something they share in personality, media they like, careers they have or have had, aspirations they possess, the like. And that the more you talk, the easier it is to find these, and also to find differences that can be discussed amicably.

That balance, between what they find in common and what they have which differs, can with enough talking, spark a magical connection and it allows people to get to know each other better, establish friendships and the like.

Plus, I am inherently a very very very lonely person and talking about myself is in many ways--a desperate attempt to reach out and connect with others, a last-ditch hope effort to connect, to satiate that loneliness and find happiness where previously there was none. Talking about myself is thus one of the ways I try to gain companionship. So I talk and talk and talk and talk.

...Also?

Boredom.

[mastina]

Temporary V/LA

--I'm getting up relatively early tomorrow, and will be preoccupied most of tomorrow, so can't post tonight and probably not tomorrow. Obviously will post if I can, but if not, see ya Wednesday.

[mastina]

So I haven't read everything and I need to catch up, but to comment on the largest issue of Jake:

One the one hand, my faith in the mod to have consistent answers is basically nil; I can very easily see the mod having provided two different answers and in a panic attempted to prevent people from verbatim quoting these, more or less. My faith in the moderator is low enough where that inability to clarify mechanics we have every right to have clarified, is something that I see as viable, so yes, I can see different answers from different people.

On the other hand: even disregarding the contradiction between Jake's supposed answer and the answers everyone else is getting--even if we were to write it off per the above, and that's an 'if', given that Jake's apparently the only person to have gotten a different answer and that is in fact suspect. But let's give maximum benefit of the doubt, for the sake of my point right now: even if you did discard that point (and frankly, we shouldn't), then Jake's play has been suspicious enough overall that he'd still be in my lynchpool

anyway

. So, he's someone I'd want to lynch.

...But

back to the original hand

,

Alternatively, I am exactly the infected and thus would want to be lynched as an expendable.

Jake all-but outright claimed "I am the infected" here, which matches my analysis;

Jake the Wolfie is a case of a read whose contributions shifted overnight. On D1 Jake was a lurksack of lurksacks, doing absolutely fuckall of anything, being a worthless zero-content slot who never did anything. While the current Jake of D2 hasn't been the MOST content-filled, there's a night and day difference, because this Jake I get townie vibes from his posting and what he's doing, and that he's been giving things which look town.

If Jake has a meta of being a lurker as town and active as scum, my read on Jake would be that Jake was the N1 infect, originally town but currently not town. But otherwise, if that's not Jake's meta, then...fucked if I know. The improvement makes it less likely that he's an original groupscum, but I have no clue.

And OkaPoka himself more or less pointed out why an infected not even bothering to try and hide being infected could be optimal for their wincon:

its probably not worth lynching infected until the mafia are genocided, lynching infected is just a middleground tbh

theoretically since infected shouldn't be able to recruit it would be optimal for infected to claim they are infected so we can definitely lynch you because theoretically it would be optimal for town to lynch a claimed infected over anyone else due to nature of more town than scum

so just theoretically its optimal and to your win condition as infected to claim infected and in fact is bannable not to claim infected once you take into account town's mentality just saying

its possibly optimal for both parties to have infected claim and be lynched thereby creating some sort of nash equilibrium variant
the payoff of town lynching infected is not risking lynching a townie

the payoff of scum having infected claim and being lynched is changing another townie into an infected instead of possibly losing scum

To translate this into generic game theory, infected are tantamount to lynching a jester--it is not lynching the original groupscum, and it furthers the wincon of the lynched player as a consequence. (It's not an exact parallel, because the town needs all infected dead, but it's similar in that the real threat is the scum, not the infected.)

If Jake's basic admittance of being the infected is true, then it'd be suboptimal to lynch him, because lynching him wouldn't be lynching groupscum.

But back to the other hand

, there's the obvious counterpoint; what's there to stop mafia from fakeclaiming that they're the infected? Or to translate it into generic game theory, a mafiate pretending to be a jester, as to be seen as 'too risky' to lynch? There's nothing stopping that, and the fact that I made the conclusion that Jake could be the infected could've spurned Jake to fake the idea of being precisely that even while actually being original groupscum.

So what's this ultimately boil down to in conclusion?

I don't think Jake's the most optimal of lynches, but he's definitely an acceptable lynch. I'll vote him when we have all slots in the game filled and everyone is sufficiently caught up and has provided as much content as I feel like they are going to. (I'm willing to hold out for a replacement to get caught up. If we were waiting for the likes of Ari/Creature to give content? Nah, just lynch.)

[mastina]

(Basically, to summarize: There is a very very very small chance Jake is town, but that is unlikely. The most likely options are that Jake is either the Infected or is original groupscum. I think the former is overall more likely than the latter, thus, not the most optimal of lynches, but the chance of the latter is what makes the lynch acceptable so I will be voting there when I am satisfied that all the slots who will produce content, have.)

[mastina]

mastina would you like to solve some hard math problems with me

Depends on the nature of the math problem.

[mastina]

I mentioned this earlier, but the game has ended now so I can post about it. Ari’s play here so far reminds me of his play in Ginngie Pick 4 U. Ari’s play was lackluster there and it seems lackluster here but he has been putting in a modicum of effort similar to that game.

There is a difference though. Reading his iso from that game, I want you to find a single post. So much as a single post from his iso that game. Which looks like this post:

Why is no one at L-1 yet? Everyone on the ETL wagon is conftown.

How even do you figure!? XD

I have a wagon-cop-check. The ETL wagon returned and innocent.

Because

that

doesn't sound OP at all
Also, Godfathers and the like exist. Js.

And similar from this game.

[mastina]

So I definitely think there are scum on the ETL wagon.

EspeciallyTheLies (11) (HAMMER @ 2684): EspeciallyTheLies (1645), Nero Cain (1710), Hoctac (2449), Quick (2504), Miss Lynch (2558), Vecna (2589), Elements (2594), Auro (2597), Flavor Leaf (2638), mastina (2663), 5G Tower (2684)

It's not impossible, given that 5G is on the wagon and in fact was a lolhammer of it when nobody was expecting it--plus, there's a chance that FL is scum here even though I currently think otherwise.

But the vast majority of this wagon is pretty definitively town. Nero's definitely town; Auro's not groupscum; Vecna and Miss Lynch are not groupscum; Quick and Hoctac are very strongly town; Elements is also pretty damn town. The wagon is, self-evidently, town-driven. It

could

have scum on it, but it's probably one-at-most.

So given that.

Scum are more likely to overall be found off the wagon. (With the aforementioned exception of 5G, who could just legit be a scum lolhammering the wagon.)

[mastina]

(Something came up, will be here later in the day, sorry.)

[mastina]

Apologies. Had internet issues until just now, but with it being 3 am, continued content will have to wait until tomorrow.

[mastina]

I know she shouldn’t say it out loud but I kinda want to know what Mastina’s looking for from Creature.

Well since he's presumably siteflaked, I believe someone already hinted at it. I forget the word they used, but basically, I was looking for reads with impact, reads that resonated, good scumreads from him. Creature had several fairly decent townreads, which is a good start, but any scum player can have good townreads because being scum they know who is town and thus can defend town. So I wasn't looking for good townread from him; I was looking for good scumreads from him, scumreads that looked like they came from the town Creature that I know.

I never saw them, but with the replacement there and his siteflake, that's mostly null, sadly.

[mastina]

scum cant do that? Just because she has more time and effort she's town right? cool.

I'd be the first to say effort != alignment but you're being disingenuous as fuck if you're calling the people townreading me as townreading me for my effort when they have good reasons to townread me that have absolutely zero to do with effort.

[mastina]

Creature has zero "bite" in any of his posts so he is probably Scum here.

Oh this was the post I was referring to in someone having used a term which basically described what I was looking for. My 4329 can be summed up with this. I was looking for, as Quick put it, some 'bite' from Creature--he had none.

But with him apparently having siteflaked, that might not be scum-indicative, so I'll have to assess Blaire in more detail when I read/reread that section of the game. (As has been the case so far, I've read a lot of the game, but don't have perfect memory of it and I'm sure that there's some stuff that I missed, which is why I am back here moving along through the thread.)

[mastina]

But really, mastina is a masterful scum player! As such, one may almost never view her agenda while it is in progress.

It's kinda pathetic how my masteful scum play boils down to "let's lurk and let the town fight it out" and yet it works surprisingly well for me.

Her scumreads are so far off this game it seems very likely to me that she is scum, yes.

I've read many of her posts, none of them wow me and they seem to be excuses for her play which feel just off. Her quoting me as a bad example of meta usage gave me simply the weirdest vibes.

Btw Ari's scum for this post, too. For a start--he's using BoP on me when he's one of the players who should be saying BoP doesn't work on me. He's giving a nonexistent narrative of my posts being excuses for my play, and he absolutely

should

recognize my posts as having that wow-factor:
Even when he erroneuously scumread me in Ali v Pine, he was able to see that aforementioned wow-factor from my posts there. He still thought I was scum, but he recognized that there WAS that wow-factor, and it is just as present this game as it was that game.

[mastina]

I'm a little worried that tchill is bussing her b/c d1 busses are a hallmark of Mastina scum

AND

tchill is doing nothing but tunneling Mastina.

You have some awfully funny ideas of what you think I consider good scumplay given my stance is very much on the record.

did anyone see where i mentioned why Ari was town? nobody has disputed that yet i dont believe. It specifically had to do with how he handled the ETL wagon and his hop off of it.

I saw and discarded it because that hop-off is a scum indicator not a town one. Specifically for Aristophanes.

A town-Aristophanes is more likely to stay on the wagon. It's not impossible for a town-Ari to get cold feet and hop off the wagon, but I would expect a town-Ari to basically be gun-ho in willingness to, at an extreme, being willing to lollynch someone. I would expect a scum-Ari to be more cautious and not be caught pushing a mislynch and see more merit in defending the mislynch.

[mastina]

There, I confirmed a thing and the game won't end after endless NLs. So literally we should be conserving our numbers until we catch scum for sure and/or find a cure!
VOTE: No Lynch
Scumhunting should still occur as normen, but scum can only kill infected this way, keeping our town numbers optimally high!

Btw why this is objectively bad should be obvious enough, but this sort of cheeky stance to take is another thing that I think is, specifically, an indicator of Ari being scum.

[mastina]

@Everyone: In your next post, review the case on Jake, and either vote, or explain

why

you wouldn't vote him.

Honestly?

With the replacements coming in and y'all deciding to randomly wagon Quick, I don't see any reason not to do this:
VOTE: Jake.

Reading through things right now, I became more sure than I ever was before that Tchill is town. There might've been others who I also had increased townvibes from, but if so I don't remember any who weren't already locktown. (Nero and OkaPoka for instance. Both very town in this area of the game, but both already locktown.)

And I legitimately just think.
{Blair, 5G Tower, Jake the Wolfie, Aristophanes, gobbledygook} contains our original groupscum.

I'll need to give a hard think on Blair's contributions to tell for sure but I currently lean away from that direction.
So.

In {5G, Jake, Aristophanes, Turkey}, I think 3/4 of them are the original groupscum.

[mastina]

I will just not be on the Jake wagon so Cop can investigate me.

For the record, Quick's stance in particular oozes town who doesn't know the alignment of Jake but has decided to take a hard stance in spite of that lack of knowledge.

Regardless of Jake's alignment, I don't see Quick as scum here ever so the wagon on him is bad.

[mastina]

Wait why is everyone asking the mod a question?

(For the record--Turkey at this point is basically pretty much lockscum here from me. He might even be my strongest scumread, I just don't know how I'd manage to lynch him today. I don't know how to build a case on him other than "this isn't him as town", that his contributions this game are way way way too lackluster, but like. This just isn't Turkey!town.)

[mastina]

Wait why is everyone asking the mod a question?

(For the record--Turkey at this point is basically pretty much lockscum here from me. He might even be my strongest scumread, I just don't know how I'd manage to lynch him today. I don't know how to build a case on him other than "this isn't him as town", that his contributions this game are way way way too lackluster, but like. This just isn't Turkey!town.)

Basically, tone-wise Turkey's flat this game. He lacks the vibrant life I know from him and his posts this game are just dull and lifeless.

He's giving content, sure, but it's still lackluster. Turkey as I know him to be as town is one of the most vibrant, strong players I know, pushing very strongly, very aggressively, very actively being involved in everything; the Turkey of this game isn't. And I know that's not due to him being a replacement; I've seen Turkey as town plenty of times town it up and be a massive boon to the town where he was everywhere doing everything, with a level of energy that radiated town.

A town-Turkey I am basically instantly able to identify on sight.

And this is not the town Turkey I've come to know and love as one of the best town players in 2020. This is a Turkey whose frankly just a chicken. Who's basically just. Showing up and posting words, but there's no conviction behind them, no drive, no push, no life.

[mastina]

If FL is Scum, he was Infected.

I actually agree with this, honestly.

I don't actually think FL started as groupscum here, but he's someone who just about any scumteam would have as a high-priority infection target.

Does that mean he

is

infected? No, he could still be town with quite a high probability, but

if

he's not-town, it's because he's infected and was originally town.

So, he's either infected or town, and in either case: not someone to lynch here. If I had to guess, I'd say still town, not infected, but that's not an absolute guess.

[mastina]

1. Creature
4. 5G Tower
5. Jake the Wolfie
6. Aristophanes
11. Nahdia
13. gobbledygook
20. Tchill13

Scum should be be completely within this unordered-by-confidence list. I have reasons for townreading everyone else.
I won't be providing them in one place; if you disagree about a townread, I'll give you the reason.
Many slots are solidly town, but I won't be establishing the strength of my townreads - just the reasoning.

Good list, but I feel Tchill and Nahdia should be out of it because there are good reasons for Tchill and Nahdia to be town.

[mastina]

(Be back later, watching Persona 5 Royal stream.)

[mastina]

Jake's deal makes the most sense to me if he's infected. I'll go ahead and claim my role now because it doesn't seem like it will be very useful if I don't telegraph my night actions publicly, and it will be an insignificant loss if I'm killed.

I'm a Frail Partygoer.

Frail = I die immediately if I'm infected. Partygoer = I have to visit one player each night. If I visit an infected player I become infected and die. I asked the mod what my Night 1 visit was and it was Jake, so at least we know he wasn't infected when I visited him Night 1. I'll visit him again tonight.

Of course, scum could infect me tonight so I die and frame Jake, but... I think it will actually be more telling if that doesn't happen.

I also asked the mod if I become infected by visiting members of the original three mafia and the answer was "No."

I'm a Frail Partygoer.

Frail = I die immediately if I'm infected. Partygoer = I have to visit one player each night. If I visit an infected player I become infected and die. I asked the mod what my Night 1 visit was and it was Jake, so at least we know he wasn't infected when I visited him Night 1. I'll visit him again tonight.

Do you know if it would trigger if you visit someone who is infected that night? As in, are you certain Jake wasn't infected night 1, but you visited him before that in action resolution?

I'll find out.

VOTE: Blair.
I have good reason to believe Blair is fakeclaiming. Namely, the thing Nahdia was alluding to? That's a detail in my original role PM. As in, details of whether my role interacts with infected players on the same night they are in my original role PM. I didn't need to ask the mod; the interactions were all laid out in my original role PM.

That Blair needs to ask about them suggests that Blair's lying about their claim.

[mastina]

Like, my role has, to paraphrase it, a clause specifying, "if your target has the disease (including on the night you target them)". This runs in stark contrast to Blair's alleged role, which according to Blair, not only wasn't specified, but after asking a question which should've been resolved in the original PM,

Update: My role resolves before an infection, in the event they occur on the same player in the same night.

...Doesn't match the resolution on my role.

Blair's claimed role lacks a specified interaction which is present in my role, and the alleged interaction is different from the one stated in my role.

So. Balance of probability--probably a fakeclaim.

[mastina]

I would suggest you ask the mod anyway.

I did and the mod told me that my interpretation is correct, that my role functions the way I described with that disclaimer.

[mastina]

You think Mastina 1v1s me here as scum, Quick?

Hard to say, actually. I just don't find any Scum motive in you claiming there *shrug*

What was the town motive? Blair's claim more or less meant nothing--it doesn't clear Jake of being scum and apparently if by Blair's role's wording Blair visits before the infection, it doesn't even clear Jake of being the infected.

So why the claim of a role that is basically identical to ETL's except for a modifier that's essentially 'weak', if it doesn't actually clear a player?

[mastina]

Post-ban TSE is a new flavor, less dominating and slower, that's why.

For the record this would also be why there's less anger on my end for people who should have every fucking reason to fucking know I am town, calling me scum. I DID get banned yaknow. I'm not eager to eat another one which forces milder responses.

Quick is pushing in every direction, paying minimal heed to his earlier thoughts. What scum motivation do you see in that play?

For the record I agree with this and it is in part why I am townreading Quick.

Wheres the town motivation? Sure you can disregard that when it comes to lurkers/trollers.

You know Tchill for someone who was defending ETL on the grounds of personality making the argument Auro is making about Quick, you sure seem to be disregarding the argument for personality when made about Quick.

That is to say, the very defense you used for ETL applies for Quick.

[mastina]

That's a detail in my original role PM

Ah! So you were infected last night!

mastina I think you should drop this.

listen to ur scum buddy!

Speaking of things I need a more subdued response to:

Spoiler: Response

Code: Select all

                     /"\
                    |\./|
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                    |   |
                 /'\|   |/'\..
             /~\|   |   |   | \
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            |   |   |   |   |   \
            | ~   ~   ~   ~ |`   )
            |                   /
             \                 /
              \               /
               \    _____    /
                |--//''`\--|
                | (( +==)) |
                |--\_|_//--|

 _____ _     ____  _  __   ____  _____ _____
/    // \ /\/   _\/ |/ /  /  _ \/    //    /
|  __\| | |||  /  |   /   | / \||  __\|  __\
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| | \|||  /_ |    /| \_/|                   
\_/  \|\____\\_/\_\\____/                   
                              

[mastina]

If anyone suspects you then you get mad and ad hommy. At the very least it's super immature.

Not everyone--just the players who have EVERY fucking reason to know better and are still pulling that shit.

I've given no grief to the likes of Nahdia scumreading me because I've no expectations of them to know better.

I have those expectations of you.

You also specifically said you had more than one pm. Whether you slipped intentionally or not doesn't matter.

I said no such thing.

I said that the details of how my role works are in the original PM--as in.
Not in a follow-through PM.
As in.
I didn't need to ask the mod and get a separate PM.

That's stupendously obvious.

[mastina]

I've given no grief to the likes of Nahdia scumreading me because I've no expectations of them to know better.

ouch

Not a statement of skill, so much as a statement of experience--you haven't played with me in years, so you scumreading me is something that carries no negative feelings of.

Nero has.

Also, there's the other layer to it, beyond experience; there's also strength of townread.

I don't react negatively to scumreads of mine scumreading me, and this goes up the latter. A townread which is weaker scumreading me will not give the same reaction as my strongest townread who I've been protecting the whole game going out of his fucking way to scumread me.

you did say original and role and pm in conjunction which does imply original is modifying role which is modifying pm rather than exclusively having original modifying pm or role modifying pm
vs just saying role pm you know? i really dont think you should be mad at nero here because if you were in his shoes, you'd probably pick something like that apart

Absolutely not, no.
Role PM is a PM in relation to your role. Clarifications to your original role are still role PMs--just not the ORIGINAL role PM. They are followthrough role PMs, they are clarification role PMs. So to separate the two, you need to differentiate them. Clarification role PMs, and Original role PMs. Or Followthrough role PMs, and Original role PMs. Or similar. You get the idea.

I wouldn't pick something like that apart because there's nothing TO pick apart. Original Role PM refers to the PM you got from the mod originally. Saying something in regards to your original role PM does not imply you have a fully new role PM (plus, as an aside, even if it did, that's not a mechanic I'd expect to be in this game; I'd expect infected players' PM to be along the lines of "You have been infected! Your wincon has changed to be the Infected wincon.", and nothing more--that's not a proper new role PM, that's basically a Results PM), it is specifying original role PM for clarity as to make sure there's no confusion of it being referring to a followthrough/clarification PM.

[mastina]

Subject: Maplewood Village - game over - [MATURE CONTENT!]

Mastina, after you finish the poem, of course, by when, during the day, must you submit your target?

The original role PM did not specify. I did ask, but I was told, "You can submit any time prior to a certain point (after which it will be random), and I will inform you 24 hours before that point comes". It was very vague, in that he specifically did not tell me when the cutoff was precisely.

only instance i can find mastina using this exact phrase

And guess what? It was used in the exact same way as I used here because that's what I fucking meant. Original role PM refers to the initial role PM you receive. And then there's followthrough/clarification PMs that are still part of your role, but were not the original. In that case, the original role PM did not specify an interaction, so I had to clarify in a followthrough PM.

In this case, my original role PM did specify the interaction, so I didn't need to clarify in a followthrough PM other than to confirm with the mod that, yes, what the original role PM said was in fact working the way I had assumed.

[mastina]

going out of his fucking way to scumread me

no I not.

She was town that game so maybe its nothing but I still think its weird wording-and her getting mad over being questioned/pushed on it was mildly scummy and immature. There's another reason that Mastina calling Blair out was iffy buy eh...

You were saying...?



...I feel I am very fucking much in my right to say you are going out of your fucking way to scumread me.
You are making every possible excuse to turn me into a scumread and discarding every possible indicator that I am town.

Especially when you've fucking played with me multiple times and have seen my townplay REPEATEDLY so should fucking know better than this shit.

[mastina]

I'll go ahead and claim my role now because it doesn't seem like it will be very useful if I don't telegraph my night actions publicly, and it will be an insignificant loss if I'm killed.

2.) Because I thought at the time that it would illuminate something about the leading wagon on Jake.

What did you think it would illuminate on Jake?

[mastina]

Is she known for elaborate fake claiming?

Blair? Like I know.

Me? I've made a truly fake claim which might've had some elaborance to it a grand total of once in my scum career; every single other time I was scum I realclaimed because my policy as scum is to never fakeclaim, to always realclaim your actual role or if not your actual role, the safeclaim the mod provided to you so long as the safeclaim is plausibly actually-safe. (If the mod's 'safeclaim' is a friendly neighbor, for instance, yeah, not gonna use it, I'd just claim VT. If the mod's safeclaim is a roleblocker when I am a tracker, yeah, not gonna use the safeclaim, I'd just go claim tracker. But if the mod's safeclaim is jailkeeper when I am a roleblocker fuck yes I'll use the safeclaim. So basically. I'll use the safeclaim unless it isn't actually a safe claim, and realclaim basically every game. Because my policy as scum is that the truth is the best weapon in your arsenal and that lying will fuck you over because you can be caught in a lie; you fundamentally cannot be caught in a lie when telling the truth because you weren't lying.)

So basically--I'm known for the OPPOSITE of elaborate fakeclaiming; I never lie about my role as scum. (Granted, yes, I do gambit on my roles as town on occasion, but I wouldn't call neighbor-->mason, bp-->macho, macho-->bp, and the like, to be 'elaborate' fakeclaims; those seem pretty simple to me.)

Granted, regardless of my alignment, I am known for elaborate claiming where I am very very wordy and explain things in a paragraph which could've been said in a sentence, but that's not due to alignment, that's due to me being me.

[mastina]

No one should be above suspicion.

Sure but you've gone out of your way to make things be suspicious that aren't. And have done so, repeatedly, for the entirety of this game, specifically in regards to my slot.

I'm not certain why you'd chose "original pm" over just something normal like "role pm"

Because 'role PM' does not describe what I was referring to. Again, a clarification/followthrough PM from the mod after you ask questions is still part of your role PM, but it's not in the original role PM. I had a need to specify it was the original role PM, emphasizing ORIGINAL rather than followthrough/clarification, so I needed to specify 'original' to make it clear.

[mastina]

I don't want to know your role, but could it not be possible you -say- KILL the infected? If so, kills resole AFTER the infection, while Visiting resolves before the infection. Come on!

So, uh.

Almost50.

Where'd you get this information from? Because per NAR:

Copy
Hide
Bus Drive
Block
Redirect
Protect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect

Kills resolve before recruitments do--and recruitments would be the type of action I'd classify 'infection' as.

Yes, the mod did say they weren't using NAR specifically, so using NAR to say kills come before infection isn't reliable, but I'm using it to say that your information cannot come from NAR.

So where did you get that information? It wasn't from NAR.

[mastina]

I think your argument that I'm going ou of my way to scum read you and "turn you into a scumread" is balls. u r doing a perfectly good job of that on your own.

Iso yourself and search for your posts in reference to me.

See how many players in the game agree with you versus disagree with you and see how many people follow through on what you said.

I'll wait.

[mastina]

Question to everyone in this game:

Would you infect me Night 1?

I can't say for absolute 100% certainty that I would--but is it a plausibility? Absolutely yes. You'd make the top-5 list for infections for sure, but I'd have to theorycraft some more and put some actual thought into it to figure out if I would put you as #1. (Would also probably depend on who my scumbuddies were.)

[mastina]

I don't want to know your role, but could it not be possible you -say- KILL the infected? If so, kills resole AFTER the infection, while Visiting resolves before the infection. Come on!

So, uh.

Almost50.

Where'd you get this information from? Because per NAR:

Copy
Hide
Bus Drive
Block
Redirect
Protect
Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect

Kills resolve before recruitments do--and recruitments would be the type of action I'd classify 'infection' as.

Yes, the mod did say they weren't using NAR specifically, so using NAR to say kills come before infection isn't reliable, but I'm using it to say that your information cannot come from NAR.

So where did you get that information? It wasn't from NAR.

New page for higher visibility because this be important.

[mastina]

Also, where did mastina go and why did she ignore my question?

mastina has been paying attention to her dearest of dear friends (one of the only ones she has and which she is terrified above all other friends of losing) and trying to help them out for the last two days while suffering from absolutely soul-crushing debilitating crippling depression that has hindered her ability to do things while still trying to juggle...well, doing things. She decided that helping out her dearest of dear friends was more important than any game of mafia ever could be.

In spite of that, I am still trying to be here. I really really really don't want to be here right now--but I need to be here anyway. (The friend doesn't need attention at this very moment--but you can bet your ass that, yes, I would disappear again in a

heartbeat

if need be to give them attention again.)

[mastina]

Mastina prob

IS

infected. That whole "your going out of your way to scumread me and get me scum read" is just so whiney. She'd also make a ton of sense to be infected n1. Sorry, FL.

Sure, go ahead and believe that if you want in spite of me having laid out exactly what I would do when infected. Makes perfect sense for me to have not changed at all between D1 and D2 in spite of the alignment change and me having explicitly told you precisely what I'd do if I were infected.

[mastina]

Mastina prob

IS

infected. That whole "your going out of your way to scumread me and get me scum read" is just so whiney. She'd also make a ton of sense to be infected n1. Sorry, FL.

Sure, go ahead and believe that if you want in spite of me having laid out exactly what I would do when infected. Makes perfect sense for me to have not changed at all between D1 and D2 in spite of the alignment change and me having explicitly told you precisely what I'd do if I were infected.

For those too lazy to look:

As someone that normally finds Mastina scummy, I rather not lynch her today. OFC the inverse of that argument is that I don't want to have to worry about an infected Mastina (if I'm right that she's town) and lynching her would alleviate that.

Eh. If the scum infect me, it's their loss--literally. When I say there's a night and day difference between my towngame and my scumgame right now, that I fundamentally cannot get myself to put in more than the bare minimum,

I'm not joking

, so

there would be an immediate

stark

contrast in my behavior, where, sure, I'd still be posting once a day to avoid getting prodded, but my content would plummet off a cliff into nonexistence pretty much

.

Plus, scum infecting me would, presumably, be obvious when I'd flip as originally-town-that-was-infected, tantamount to the scum nightkilling me, soooo. If the scum want to spend what amounts to basically a factional nightkill on me, then who am I to complain? It means they saw me as a threat. That's an honor.

Also, her statements that she always makes that her scum game is oh so bad is not always actually the case.

I mean. Circa two years ago my scumplay was among the best of the best onsite, but I don't know what happened to it, a year and a half of having drawn almost exclusively town role PMs (I went over 20 games in a row without drawing scum!), and for whatever reason. I just. Haven't been able to play scum worth a damn this year. Give me a little time and I can give you some examples demonstrating the utter lack of ability to play that alignment. While, admittedly, many of these scumgames had extenuating circumstances which incentivized that lack of playing scum, not all of them had it and even ones which

shouldn't

have been that way, ones which I

should

have been able to play to my fullest at the level scumastina is known for.

Well.

I just.

Didn't

.

So.

My scumgame in 2020 is, yes, objectively--terrible, demonstrably so. I will admit. It having been objectively terrible in every single scumgame this year does not mean that I couldn't magically have a scumastina performance at the level I'm usually known for! It could happen! But it hasn't, multiple times, hasn't. Why, dunno. Just is.

Anyways, she is overwhelmingly more likely to be town here, but dont get too convinced on that fact without keeping that sharp eye.

I mean, cult game, so. I'm town today, but obviously I can't promise you that I'll

stay

town. (I mean. Scum's mistake if they infect me, but like. While it's obviously a mistake for scum to infect me. Scum aren't immune to making mistakes, so. Could happen in spite of how objectively terrible a move it'd be.) So like. Future days, keep an eye on what I am doing.

If I have a sudden inexplicable abrupt dropoff in contributions and activities, chances are

fairly

high that the cause is that I'm no longer town

.

Btw, infected should claim

I'm not infected yet!

That dropoff in activity hasn't happened yet. (Well. Not really happened. I am posting less than I would like, and I am still disappearing more often than would be ideal, contributing less than would be optimal. But, 1: I am still, very obviously,

trying

to keep up, and 2: there are some very big reasons for WHY I've had that dropoff so it's not sudden and not inexplicable.)

I'm still town and anyone targeting me to try and remove infection is wasting their action unless their action can cleanse an infection made on the same night (i.e. their infection cleanse resolves after the scum's infection action).

Same for Nero, same for Voted.

[mastina]

but it's still really weird though. Like, a simple "my role pm says...." would have been sufficient and made a ton more sense than "my original pm"

No, because 'my role pm says' is nonspecific. It is something that could be from any PM from the mod in relation to the role PM. To specific it is the original, you need to then either say 'original' or 'initial', for context that, yes, I am saying that in the initial role PM, NOT a followthrough role PM, the interaction is specified.

If you were to say 'my role PM says that this happens', I would have no clue if you're referring to something from your initial role PM, or if you were referring to a detail of your role PM that was laid out by the mod after clarification was in order. If you were to say 'my original/initial role PM says that this happens', it would be unambiguous that you were referring to the original/initial role PM, rather than a followthrough clarification PM.

That is to say, the very defense you used for ETL applies for Quick.

but my interpretation of quick is that this isnt the same as etls thing.

And just as I did with ETL I disagree with you on Quick.

Also the whole reason for pushing Blair kinda seems lie garbage? Like, Blair as a modifier that makes her die if she targets scum. OFC your pm will be different if you role pm.

Not entirely as different as it'd seem, since my role also deals in death with half of it. (Not the other half, but yes, half does deal with death. I could elaborate on this, but I shouldn't, obviously. Even this is a bit much to divulge and the main reason I'm doing so is only because with the likes of Almost50 positing it I figured that the jig was up and people had deduced it anyway. But while confirming what they basically already knew is probably harmless, specifying the exact nature of it is probably not a good idea.)

That having been said.

I will admit; a large portion of my hop onto Blair was specifically to push and prod Blair. I wanted to do so more heavily, until I was satisfied--and I'm not exactly satisfied. I still feel like there's flaws in Blair's claim, and Blair's been in the suspect pool for basically the entire game for good reason and Blair's content has not been enough to make me objectively think that assessment was inaccurate.

Objectively.
Objectively, I don't have any reason to clear Blair; I don't have any reason to feel satisfied; I don't have any objective reason for thinking Blair looks better now than when I cast the vote.
Objectively.

Subjectively, though. The vote has felt wrong since almost the minute I cast it. When I cast it, in a kneejerk reaction to the claim, being a kneejerk reaction, obviously it felt right to do in the moment but literally every bone in my body since then has been crying out "this is a bad vote and you should feel bad for it". Like I said. Objectively, I can't explain that. Objectively, there isn't any reason it's a bad vote. Objectively, I can't find a flaw in the vote. Objectively, it seems like there is reasonable logic backing me.

But subjectively everything about it feels wrong. Strong, overwhelming gut, 'this is wrong', so.
I'll trust my instincts here over my logic and go here:
VOTE: Jake.

Interestingly enough. Vice-versa applies to Aristophanes. Subjectively I still very strongly feel he's scum, but objectively I have doubts based on what he is doing. Push come to shove, I'd trust my gut over my logic here and would vote Ari again from it, but the

presence

of objective doubts is why my vote's going to Jake rather than Ari.

[mastina]

@Mastina: Recap on TChill and Nahdia town?

I would love to give details beyond a quoted post, but right now, all I can muster is to quote the post.

Quick has been overwhelmingly acting as I would expect him to if he were town, from my memory of him as a player. Everything he does just radiates the aura of being town, and his progression in reads displays a nuance I wouldn't expect him to be able to display as scum. He has reads and reasons that show a trajectory of thought to them that, moonlogicky as they can be, have a reasonability to them that show what appears to be actual, genuine thought in them, in a way that I don't think he can fake as scum.

The doubt comes from a combination of not having seen him play in a long time, not being all to familiar with him now, not having perfect memory of him, others having displayed suspicion on him and many of said players suspecting him also being townreads and me wanting to trust their assessments of him, and that it's not utterly impossible for a scum player to play the way he has.

He is my strongest non-locktown read because while those aforementioned doubts are strong enough to keep him from being in the locktown tier, I feel like they are more in the realm of paranoia than reasonable doubt.


Hoctac is also equally as town to Quick, due to a similar presence. Hoctac's posts contain a unique mixture of shitposting and gamesolving in a way that is incredibly hard to balance as scum, and I can trace where Hoctac's more serious gamesolving posts come from as well as see why Hoctac's less serious posts are being made. Overwhelmingly, Hoctac radiates the aura of a town player who is at ease in this game, and I struggle to see how scum could do what Hoctac has done so fluently and naturally.

The doubt here comes from utter unfamiliarity with Hoctac as a player. I have no clue what Hoctac is like as town and scum, no frame of reference for whether this is normal from him as any alignment, no real idea of whether Hoctac is town or scum by meta. (Plus, multiple slots being suspicious of him and me wanting to trust that they're onto something with said suspicion, and him being a borderline-lurker.) I will say that, disregarding meta, Hoctac would be one of my strongest townreads this game, and it is only this lack of familiarity with meta keeping Hoctac from being locktown.

Given that, that suspicion is firmly in the realms of mostly-paranoia.


Elements might've initially struck my scumdar, but later Elements posting greatly improved this read, because it actually looked like what I expect from Elements when he is town: radiating the aura of mislynch bait, but with content that shows a town mindset to it rather than a scum one. This was enough for a reasonably strong read.

Nahdia since then has been largely net-neutral to that read, neither strengthening it nor really weakening it, doing pretty much nothing to the slot, outside of paranoia of "what if I was wrong?" due to Nahdia not being as gamesolvey as I would like. So maybe, maybe a bit weaker than when the slot was Elements, but if so, due to feelings that are more borne from paranoia than anything else. The doubts I get from Nahdia don't actually feel like they're alignment indicative, so much as it is I am probably doubting Nahdia for being...well, Nahdia. So given that the doubts probably spurn from paranoia rather than reasonable doubts, the townread remains fairly strong.


Saudade is where he is at for good reason. This entire tier, him, the farside slot, FL (he's listed below in a tier but he's also among the conflicted reads), and Tchill, are precisely that; Of all the reads in the game, these four are the three I am most back-and-forth on.


Tchill's too low on the list as posted above, since he should be above both farside/Turkey and Saudade. By content and by meta, he'd be a townread because I've liked what I've seen and from what I know of his meta this looks to be him as town since it doesn't seem to match what I know of his scumgame. He's similar in Quick in how he's someone that is producing thoughts that, while I may not agree with, I understand where they come from and can trace the thought of, and is incredibly active, and has a meta that I have some awareness of but not perfect awareness of.

It is that lack of perfect awareness, similarly to Quick, where the doubt on the townread comes from. He is someone who could be hyper-active scum; of all the slots in the game, if this game were to have a hyperactive scum, he is by FAR the most probable contender. I am not intimately familiar with his meta, and his content is not something scum could never ever produce, and those who scumread him do bring up some valid criticisms of his play, and I want to have faith that they are onto something.

So, the doubts on him don't feel like they're paranoia, but on the other hand, in spite of the doubts feeling reasonable, not feeling like paranoia, they also don't feel right to me, because him being town feels right. He's definitely not the strongest gut-townread I have, but I'd say he's among them, because while I may not have any solid evidence that this is him as town, it

feels

like he's town. I still have twangs of doubt, where I think, "what if he's scum? He could be, given X Y Z", but overall he's more town than scum to me.

I can say that I do need to give an updated readslist, with my reflections thusfar.

The short version is that I'd vote any of Jake, Aristophanes, 5G, and Turkey right now, and that everyone else I have at least some reason to not be voting, but I'd need to compile another readslist to get into the full version of this.

[mastina]

Oh I left Hoctac in that list deliberately but forgot to include in the post above why; I meant to, in a tangent, point out that I am well aware of the wagon on him and exactly why I will not join it--not even at deadline. I'd rather no-lynch than lynch Hoctac.

[mastina]

(The inclusion of Quick is there, 1: as a reminder to the remnants of that wagon why I won't vote for him not even at deadline, and 2: because it is pertinent to the Tchill-is-town reasoning because many of the reasons I have for Quick being town are also reasons I have for Tchill being town thus necessitating the inclusion of Quick for the full defense of Tchill.)

[mastina]

Mastina would never infect me.

Not true. I would probably not have you as my #1-guaranteed-choice for infection. I would almost certainly have you in my top-5 choices for infection (depending on who scumbuddies were, possibly moving higher).

To put it simply, the players I'd be most likely to infect would be {0. ETL but she died D1 so couldn't be the N1 infect, 1. Turkey/farside either holder of the slot as players who're ridiculously good as town that are also still damn good as scum, 2. Miss Lynch but not OkaPoka for the same reasons as Turkey/farside, 2.5 Vecna but not TSE for the same reasons as Miss Lynch/Oka, 3.5 Almost50, 4.5 FL}.

Those six players would be my top infections.
ETL was lynched, wouldn't be here.
Vecna was replaced at the beginning of N1, and since I wouldn't infect TSE and had ample time to change any target if I were to have targeted Vecna, it wouldn't be there.

Which means that N1 my choices of infection would be {Turkey, Miss Lynch, Almost50, Flavor Leaf}. So. You make top four converts here definitively.

Granted. Honestly, being honest. You probably would be either third or fourth on that, because Turkey > Miss Lynch > you/Almost50 to have infected, with you being about equal to Almost50 in value as an infected. So you probably wouldn't be an N1 infect. Not unless I was scum with both Turkey and Miss Lynch. But saying I'd

never

infect you? Nah. I absolutely would, in the right circumstance. In this specific game, with this specific playerlist, on night one? While you make the top four, sure, yeah, probably someone else. But in general? I could and would.

Obviously not that relevant though given that I am neither groupscum nor currently infected, so. I digress.

[mastina]

Fucking LOL
Was that a slip Hoctac?? I'll hold my vote because I see a bunch and don't want to accidentally hammer XD XD

Doubts about Ari being scum, for the record, are absolutely

not

based on posts like this which is the type of post which reaffirms the gut-scumread I hold on the slot, by the way.

[mastina]

If she's scum, I think it's far more likely that she planted that language in there she she could argue that it wasn't a slip and is angry that she's getting pushed.

I suggest you look up Occam's Razor, as your arguments clearly lack an application of it.

I mean going from "fuck u nero" to "u r trying to go out of your way!" is just an overreaction and the later is just a mound of bullshit and kinda discrety.

It's not discredity; it is the objective truth, and your iso is proof of that.

Not once have you made a single post with me in anything other than a negative light. Not once.

Your arguments when doing so are, often, repeatedly, refuted--not just by me, but by many many many many other players who point out the flaws in your logic and your arguments.

And yet every single time, you continue to push me in that negative light and invent new reasons to do so.

That's not discrediting you. That's an objective truth of your slot's treatment of mine. It's literally there in your iso, for you to see if you bothered but of COURSE you won't because you don't want to fucking admit that yes I am right that yes you ARE going out of your way to paint me in negative light.

I offered you the chance to feel free to prove me wrong, demonstrating exactly how you could--but you didn't take me up on that offer because deep down you fucking know I'm right.

[mastina]

...are jesters possible in this game?

Infected pretty much ARE jesters. They advance the scum wincon by being lynched, because it keeps the original scum alive allowing them to infect more players, AND it prevents the town from curing infected players (which we are assuming is a mechanic because there's probably a logical reason why scum can kill infected players, i.e., a mechanic where the infected wouldn't necessarily stay infected).

So, if you see jestery play--that would be the obvious answer. As either Infected or scum-faking-being-Infected. (Notably, this is my opinion of Jake. I don't think Jake is town here right now; he's either Infected or he's scum that wants us to think he's infected. Without a way of clearly differentiating between the two, he's a fairly safe lynch. The chance of lynching scum makes the lynch worth it even if he does end up just being Infected and there's little drawback to it. If he is Infected, obviously, a scum lynch would be better, but if he's scum faking being Infected, lynching him > lynching town and just about any other lynch would be on town.)

[mastina]

...are jesters possible in this game?

Infected pretty much ARE jesters. They advance the scum wincon by being lynched, because it keeps the original scum alive allowing them to infect more players, AND it prevents the town from curing infected players (which we are assuming is a mechanic because there's probably a logical reason why scum can kill infected players, i.e., a mechanic where the infected wouldn't necessarily stay infected).

So, if you see jestery play--that would be the obvious answer. As either Infected or scum-faking-being-Infected. (Notably, this is my opinion of Jake. I don't think Jake is town here right now; he's either Infected or he's scum that wants us to think he's infected. Without a way of clearly differentiating between the two, he's a fairly safe lynch. The chance of lynching scum makes the lynch worth it even if he does end up just being Infected and there's little drawback to it. If he is Infected, obviously, a scum lynch would be better, but if he's scum faking being Infected, lynching him > lynching town and just about any other lynch would be on town.)

Basically, infected would be half-jester, half-traitor, in how their role would work. They are moderator-obligated to try and impede the town and help the scum, without knowing who the scum are. They know that they, themselves, are not the original scum, so lynching themselves is not lynching the original scum.)

[mastina]

Mastina produced significant content today, no? That should point to her being uninfected. The "original PM" thing is funny.

Correct. Not as much as I want to, not as much as is ideal--I still have a tab open for page 165 because while I read all of the content from that area of the game, there's still content from around that time that I wanted to respond to/point out which I haven't had the chance to do and I'm not sure I'll get around to it.

But I am still doing the best I can, just about every single day. I can't play perfectly here, not even 'perfectly given that I am mastina', as in, as good as I can play given who I am, in perfect-humanity-isn't-perfect fashion. I can't play at that level. But I'm still trying to get as close to that level as is currently possible. (Would say humanly possible, but the level I am striving for

is

humanly possible, just not CURRENTLY possible.)

but in response to wagon he is just kinda trolling and doesn't really care which i mean yeah

Which is a fairly strong indicator that Hoctac is town because, uh. Y'know. Only three original groupscum, scum need every single one of their members alive for as long as is humanly possible, and beyond that:
Who is defending Hoctac right now in a way that is plausibly a scumbuddy? I am, sure! But besides the fact that I am town, there's also generally a lack of Hoctac defense and near-universal support for Hoctac's death.

So you'd need to posit either the scum are perfectly okay with Hoctac's death and are bussing with Hoctac making zero effort to defend himself because he wants to die in spite of it losing 1/3 of the scumteam's original members' manpower when they need every member for as long as is humanly possible...

...Or, that scum are perfectly okay with Hoctac's death because Hoctac isn't scum, and Hoctac is okay with dieing because of not being scum.

The latter is far simpler than the former.

[mastina]

the slip is being that infected would die start of next night? i mean does any of the info we know lead to that conclusion?

For the record: I very very very sincerely doubt that infected would automatically die at the start of the next night--there's multiple reasons for this, my role among them.

As such, the supposed 'slip', if it were a slip at all, would actually be a townslip, not a scumslip, because scum would know the correct mechanic involving infection and not make the mistake of thinking infected automatically die at the start of the next night.

[mastina]

I don’t think both

you

and

Aristophanes

are Town.
I also don’t think both

Hoctac

and

Jake

are Town.

It should be fairly obvious which in both of those duos I think is town and scum.

Care to guess?

[mastina]

Mastina, are you accusing Nero of being scum? If you are not, then what is the purpose of this exchange?

I didn't respond to this because ironically enough: I didn't see the point of making it an exchange. It didn't seem like a question that'd have a productive answer and still doesn't. The answer though; Nero is not scum, neither infected nor original scum. The purpose is not something I can put to words.

[mastina]

so I don't make the cut for infection targets huh? Interesting

I forgot you in the list.
Yes, you make it, for the same reason farside/Turkey/Miss Lynch would.

With luck though we won't have to deal with paranoia of you being infected tho.

[mastina]

Ari is now a townread

I'll hate myself for backing out of this read if it turns out he's scum but I actually agree on that.

Notably, in a similar read reversal:

I would happily wagon pisskop, too.
I initially was satisfied with pisskop's activity as probably being a town entrance, where he couldn't immediately gamesolve due to being a replacement but was still making effort.

That effort has completely and entirely disappeared, shrinking to absolute zero--and I would expect that more if pisskop were scum, sooooooooo.

[mastina]

Oh hey! Guess what?

Also, her statements that she always makes that her scum game is oh so bad is not always actually the case.

I mean. Circa two years ago my scumplay was among the best of the best onsite, but I don't know what happened to it, a year and a half of having drawn almost exclusively town role PMs (I went over 20 games in a row without drawing scum!), and for whatever reason. I just.

Haven't been able to play scum worth a damn this year. Give me a little time and I can give you some examples demonstrating the utter lack of ability to play that alignment.

While, admittedly, many of these scumgames had extenuating circumstances which incentivized that lack of playing scum, not all of them had it and even ones which

shouldn't

have been that way, ones which I

should

have been able to play to my fullest at the level scumastina is known for.

Well.

I just.

Didn't

.

So.

My scumgame in 2020 is, yes, objectively--terrible, demonstrably so. I will admit. It having been objectively terrible in every single scumgame this year does not mean that I couldn't magically have a scumastina performance at the level I'm usually known for! It could happen! But it hasn't, multiple times, hasn't. Why, dunno. Just is.

Oh! Also.
I typed this up yesterday while I was waiting for the game to end (it was after the hammer vote, so I needed to wait for the mod announcement thus why I PMd the mods of the game to try and hasten their official ending of the game), in defense of myself. Sadly, the thread here locked before I got the chance to post it, butstill thought I'd post it all the same.

Btw I said a while back that I could prove fairly definitively that my scumgame in 2020 has been incredibly lackluster, but I only had two examples at the time I could legally link due to ongoing games (where my slot was flipped scum, so I wasn't condemning my slot by saying I had lackluster games, but couldn't reference them).

Well, now, fresh off the presses, I can finally link a third!

To wit, this was the entirety of my iso in Skyrim UPick.
Go take a look at that game and tell me I put in any amount of effort compared to this game.

This was the entirety of my iso in Saga Mafia.
Go take a look at that game and tell me I put in any amount of effort compared to this game.

And fresh off the presses, here's a third scumgame of mine this year.
I was in a hydra, so let me link you to every single post I made that game:
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4
Post 5
Post 6
Post 7
Post 8
Post 9
Post 10
Post 11
Post 12
Post 13

Those thirteen posts were the entirety of my contribution to the game, save for a couple of posts in the neighborhood. Those posts?

lets go with stoned

What a

weed

codeword to have chosen.

Alisae be a big bulli who bullied the mod.

Gotta say, not an avatar I associate with you RCE but it is certainly something which makes you much much much more town.

That was it.

I realize people tend not to click links, so let me put in spoiler tags the entirety of my thirteen posts in that game to show my contributions to that game as scum:

Spoiler: My scum iso that game

7. Claiming as the picker for another player's claimed character name, whether real or fake, in this thread is NOT ALLOWED.

Seems like a pretty silly rule to be honest because while claiming it might be forbidden, aint nothing stopping at you hinting at it heavily and it can be particularly obvious for certain people. (For instance, if someone had a MHA name, MHA avatar, MHA theme, etc., and they submitted a MHA character...gee, wonder who the MHA flavor was from?)

For instance, if my picks had won the RNG (Alisae and I both submitted two picks and asked the mod to RNG them, Alisae's picks got spot one and two), then it'd have been

pretty

obvious that they were from me.

Monster is the best anime ever.
If you disagree I'm voting you.

Says Monster is the best anime ever, has a FMA avatar, cognitive dissonance = scumtell.
VOTE: AbuHumanoid

Interesting.

Can I just say that I SO strongly associate L with Wisdom and Light with FL that even though I know there's a literal 0% chance of it I keep on thinking that you're a hydra of Wisdom and Flavor Leaf?

i was stoned as fuck when i made this decision

Naturally. No sober player would want this.

Did we all get tricked into thinking the upick was straight up?

Eh I saw it was a shuffle and deduced the probable nature of the mechanic, but I honestly was hoping I was wrong, not gonna lie.

I am so, so tired already.

Understandable!

God this game is gonna be a disaster already.

Is any game not?

Can you let me know when I should actually start reading?

I should pretty much be asking this question of others.

Honestly it did grow fast, but that doesn't really mean much

Pretty much, yeah.

People think "oh, fast wagon, must be bad", but that instinctive gut-reaction is honestly just...bad. Speed of the wagon is honestly 97% of the time utterly meaningless--doesn't make the wagon more likely to contain scum, doesn't make the person wagoned more likely to be town.

I will admit that Wonderful Deceit pushing a townblock at this stage of the game was unnatural.

Eh I wouldn't fault Ali for picking up one of my habits while hydraing with me.

I tried to seriously read the game but I ended up glossing over them. What do?

Mindlessly comment on shit, obv.

Why would mastina inactivity be AI?

It's usually not. It can be, but most of the time it's just rl+mental mindset/health determining activity.

Is it mastina catching up?

I thought that was obvious enough.

Still think I'm bullshitting about not being able to play scum this year after a scumgame like that one?

Still think that my play this game is comparable to my scumgames?

Remember this?

Yes well as it so happens there was one other ongoing scumgame of mine! I was flipped at the time but needed to wait for the game to end before I could officially link it (just like the UPick), but now that it's officially over, I can add it to the repertoire and say that I have

four

lackluster scumgames in 2020. FOUR lackluster scumgames. Four.

How many scumgames have I had that weren't lackluster?

Zero!

How many towngames have I had that were lackluster? Well, depends on your definition. Lackluster in terms of result--one, doubles mafia, where I was playing incredibly suboptimally and the game is the first objective failure of the year on most metrics. (I was obvtown plenty enough, but that was my only real saving grace from otherwise fairly self-evidently shitty play.) Lackluster in terms of activity? Also one, but a different one; that'd be Krazy's Upick game.

How many towngames have I had that were similar to this one? Five!

You can check the games I've played in the last six months for yourself if you think that self-meta is in any way invalid.
But to reiterate--every scumgame is linked conveniently in this post with a link to my iso or even quoting the entirety of it in one case.
So you can easily compare those scumgames to here.

And then also compare here to the numerous towngames.



When I say there's a night and day difference between my towngame and my scumgame.
There's a fucking night and day difference between my towngame and my bloody scumgame.

And it's literally there for the record, in easily-digestible, easily-factchecked, easily-confirmed fashion, with just as easy a comparison to my play in this game. And that's just the recent six months, but if you extend it back further, nothing in that meta changes within the last year and a half at least.

[mastina]

Oh hey! Guess what?

Also, her statements that she always makes that her scum game is oh so bad is not always actually the case.

I mean. Circa two years ago my scumplay was among the best of the best onsite, but I don't know what happened to it, a year and a half of having drawn almost exclusively town role PMs (I went over 20 games in a row without drawing scum!), and for whatever reason. I just.

Haven't been able to play scum worth a damn this year. Give me a little time and I can give you some examples demonstrating the utter lack of ability to play that alignment.

While, admittedly, many of these scumgames had extenuating circumstances which incentivized that lack of playing scum, not all of them had it and even ones which

shouldn't

have been that way, ones which I

should

have been able to play to my fullest at the level scumastina is known for.

Well.

I just.

Didn't

.

So.

My scumgame in 2020 is, yes, objectively--terrible, demonstrably so. I will admit. It having been objectively terrible in every single scumgame this year does not mean that I couldn't magically have a scumastina performance at the level I'm usually known for! It could happen! But it hasn't, multiple times, hasn't. Why, dunno. Just is.

Oh! Also.
I typed this up yesterday while I was waiting for the game to end (it was after the hammer vote, so I needed to wait for the mod announcement thus why I PMd the mods of the game to try and hasten their official ending of the game), in defense of myself. Sadly, the thread here locked before I got the chance to post it, butstill thought I'd post it all the same.

Btw I said a while back that I could prove fairly definitively that my scumgame in 2020 has been incredibly lackluster, but I only had two examples at the time I could legally link due to ongoing games (where my slot was flipped scum, so I wasn't condemning my slot by saying I had lackluster games, but couldn't reference them).

Well, now, fresh off the presses, I can finally link a third!

To wit, this was the entirety of my iso in Skyrim UPick.
Go take a look at that game and tell me I put in any amount of effort compared to this game.

This was the entirety of my iso in Saga Mafia.
Go take a look at that game and tell me I put in any amount of effort compared to this game.

And fresh off the presses, here's a third scumgame of mine this year.
I was in a hydra, so let me link you to every single post I made that game:
Post 1
Post 2
Post 3
Post 4
Post 5
Post 6
Post 7
Post 8
Post 9
Post 10
Post 11
Post 12
Post 13

Those thirteen posts were the entirety of my contribution to the game, save for a couple of posts in the neighborhood. Those posts?

lets go with stoned

What a

weed

codeword to have chosen.

Alisae be a big bulli who bullied the mod.

Gotta say, not an avatar I associate with you RCE but it is certainly something which makes you much much much more town.

That was it.

I realize people tend not to click links, so let me put in spoiler tags the entirety of my thirteen posts in that game to show my contributions to that game as scum:

Spoiler: My scum iso that game

7. Claiming as the picker for another player's claimed character name, whether real or fake, in this thread is NOT ALLOWED.

Seems like a pretty silly rule to be honest because while claiming it might be forbidden, aint nothing stopping at you hinting at it heavily and it can be particularly obvious for certain people. (For instance, if someone had a MHA name, MHA avatar, MHA theme, etc., and they submitted a MHA character...gee, wonder who the MHA flavor was from?)

For instance, if my picks had won the RNG (Alisae and I both submitted two picks and asked the mod to RNG them, Alisae's picks got spot one and two), then it'd have been

pretty

obvious that they were from me.

Monster is the best anime ever.
If you disagree I'm voting you.

Says Monster is the best anime ever, has a FMA avatar, cognitive dissonance = scumtell.
VOTE: AbuHumanoid

Interesting.

Can I just say that I SO strongly associate L with Wisdom and Light with FL that even though I know there's a literal 0% chance of it I keep on thinking that you're a hydra of Wisdom and Flavor Leaf?

i was stoned as fuck when i made this decision

Naturally. No sober player would want this.

Did we all get tricked into thinking the upick was straight up?

Eh I saw it was a shuffle and deduced the probable nature of the mechanic, but I honestly was hoping I was wrong, not gonna lie.

I am so, so tired already.

Understandable!

God this game is gonna be a disaster already.

Is any game not?

Can you let me know when I should actually start reading?

I should pretty much be asking this question of others.

Honestly it did grow fast, but that doesn't really mean much

Pretty much, yeah.

People think "oh, fast wagon, must be bad", but that instinctive gut-reaction is honestly just...bad. Speed of the wagon is honestly 97% of the time utterly meaningless--doesn't make the wagon more likely to contain scum, doesn't make the person wagoned more likely to be town.

I will admit that Wonderful Deceit pushing a townblock at this stage of the game was unnatural.

Eh I wouldn't fault Ali for picking up one of my habits while hydraing with me.

I tried to seriously read the game but I ended up glossing over them. What do?

Mindlessly comment on shit, obv.

Why would mastina inactivity be AI?

It's usually not. It can be, but most of the time it's just rl+mental mindset/health determining activity.

Is it mastina catching up?

I thought that was obvious enough.

Still think I'm bullshitting about not being able to play scum this year after a scumgame like that one?

Still think that my play this game is comparable to my scumgames?

Remember this?

Yes well as it so happens there was one other ongoing scumgame of mine! I was flipped at the time but needed to wait for the game to end before I could officially link it (just like the UPick), but now that it's officially over, I can add it to the repertoire and say that I have

four

lackluster scumgames in 2020. FOUR lackluster scumgames. Four.

How many scumgames have I had that weren't lackluster?

Zero!

How many towngames have I had that were lackluster? Well, depends on your definition. Lackluster in terms of result--one, doubles mafia, where I was playing incredibly suboptimally and the game is the first objective failure of the year on most metrics. (I was obvtown plenty enough, but that was my only real saving grace from otherwise fairly self-evidently shitty play.) Lackluster in terms of activity? Also one, but a different one; that'd be Krazy's Upick game.

How many towngames have I had that were similar to this one? Five!

You can check the games I've played in the last six months for yourself if you think that self-meta is in any way invalid.
But to reiterate--every scumgame is linked conveniently in this post with a link to my iso or even quoting the entirety of it in one case.
So you can easily compare those scumgames to here.

And then also compare here to the numerous towngames.



When I say there's a night and day difference between my towngame and my scumgame.
There's a fucking night and day difference between my towngame and my bloody scumgame.

And it's literally there for the record, in easily-digestible, easily-factchecked, easily-confirmed fashion, with just as easy a comparison to my play in this game. And that's just the recent six months, but if you extend it back further, nothing in that meta changes within the last year and a half at least.

Pagetopping this.

[mastina]

And, I promised an updated readslist. Here's the short version, I'll quote this post with explanations of relevant read shifts in a moment.

Nero Cain
No łynch/Voted

Auro
Vecna/TrueSoulEnergy
Miss Lynch/OkaPoka

Quick
Hoctac
Tchill13

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21 + davesaz
Flavor Leaf
Almost50
momo/Creature/Blair
Aristophanes



Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower
Saudade/pisskop
farside22/gobbledygook

Thereabouts, will explain in a sec.

[mastina]

Quick
Hoctac
Tchill13

Elements/Nahdia
Alchemist21 + davesaz
Flavor Leaf
Almost50
momo/Creature/Blair
Aristophanes



Jake the Wolfie
5G Tower
Saudade/pisskop
farside22/gobbledygook

Thereabouts, will explain in a sec.

The first read here to explain is Tchill--he's moved up to the strong town category. (The Auro-Oka tier is the locktown tier; the Quick-Tchill tier is the strong town tier.) Everything I've been seeing from him over and over and over again suggests that he's just town here and honestly the strength of the Quick/Hoctac/Tchill reads are interchangeable because all three are so town that they're almost locktown and in fact I am actually considering just moving all three up and removing the strong town tier altogether.

That, or turning it into the Nahdia/davesaz tier, because both are pretty damn good townreads here, albeit not to the same extent as Quick, Hoctac, and Tchill are. Nahdia's content just oozes town and similarly so for davesaz's.

I remain cautiously optimistic that this is a town Flavor Leaf and similarly so for Almost50.

Blair has, as I mentioned, overwhelming gut reaction of not being scum.

Aristophanes is the read which has reversed in that I think that his more recent posting

does

show the strong signs of life I'd expect from Aristophanes as town.

Which leaves the bottom four.

Jake is outright claiming infected as close as he can within the rules of the game. He's doing as much as he can to say he is infected. This means either he's infected or he's scum faking infected. I lean the former over the latter, meaning he's not an optimal lynch, but I'll take him if I can't get any of the others.

5G's content this game is dismal. Active lurking, no scumhunting, opportunistic-as-fuck stances voting for convenient wagons. The slot has an INCREDIBLY high chance of being scum.

pisskop/Turkey are both replacements that are not living up to my expectations of them and are doing what I'd expect to see from them as scum. (Well, in the case of pisskop, at least. This is looking an awful lot like the pisskop I was spearheading the scum lynch of in TemporalLich's game since pisskop's done basically identical in this game what he did in that game.)

This is the short version, could do the longer version if given more time tho.

[mastina]

one, doubles mafia, where I was playing incredibly suboptimally

Didn't you arrive at the correct PoEs along with me and Vecna in Doubles?

Oh I was working with you and Vecna alright but I locktowned Molla, who was scum (as I have said; calling town scum? Not a failure from me--calling scum locktown? Utter failure on my part) and Not_Mafia was, if you're being generous to me, null.

I did have Ceph in my poe, sure, and if you're feeling generous, you could say I had Gamma there too (but that'd be awfully generous given that he was more nulltown), but requiring half of the scumteam to be null IF being generous, with one scum as locktown? Means that uhhhh. Yeah. A bit lackluster in reads, no? It is the first game in 2020 I've felt bad about for good reason; it's the first game where I felt I was not performing at the level I

should

be. Granted, yes, I did one thing right, being obvtown, but reads-wise, not so much.

[mastina]

if jake wasnt actually lynched can we lynch 5g actually. like i get the point about introducing new wagons but i feel like that slot really needs rope and idk why it hasnt happened.

Not gonna lie--right now I want to focus on anything other than this game, but I'll at least say that if I do focus elsewhere I'll still be reading here so if a wagon forms on any of my three scumreads, fuck yes I'll join it.

But lacking ability to do so, Jake is just the best option because Jake isn't town. I do feel sorry for him, he's tried to say as clearly as he can that yes he's the infected and overall, I do believe him, but lynching him would be better than lynching town.

[mastina]

So did Mastina.

I really didn't since my role couldn't permanently prevent a person from being infected, the prevention was very temporary, but if you killed me believing that my role would make it permanent then I'd say me baiting one of scum's only two nightkills was mission accomplished.

(I knew my role, only giving temporary immunity, could NOT trigger in any way shape or form the town's alternative wincon--therefore my death would be preferable over a town PR who COULD bring the town's alternative wincon forward. Also my role was half-vig and fuck playing a vig.)

[mastina]

hah, i knew something was iffy about you auro, but somehow I let you and mastina change my mind.

I shoulda pushed more or Auro. I knew something was up when he was town reading me for the first time ever.

And you did somehow manage to get me to at least not scumread you, despite my better judgement.

Auro's quantity of posting is probably the biggest factor in not attracting an outright scumread from me. I do think that I called it correctly, he was pushing reasonable but wrong stuff which matches the BTDT game.

Very amusing

Indeed, don't see ME trying to make excuses, I'm just owning up to having flat-out outright having made the mistake, no excuses allowed, it was an error on my part.