Mini Normal 2139: No Flavor Allowed - Game Over

[Ircher]

Day 1 VC #9

Umlaut (0):
clidd (1): LuckyLuciano (32)
Hoctac (0):
Persivul (0):

Ragman Saul Rima (5) (L-2): farside22 (170), Persivul (172), Reundo (190), Klick (211), clidd (214)

valoneast (0):
brassherald (0):

LuckyLuciano (4) (L-3): Zulfy (38), SirCakez (82), Umlaut (125), Ragman Saul Rima (127)

farside22 (0):
Klick (1): Hoctac (135)
SirCakez (0):
Not Voting (2): brassherald (255), valoneast (274)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch a player.

This phase will end on May 19, 2020 1:00 PM EDT (GMT-4:00) or in (expired on 2020-05-19 13:00:00).

Moderator Notes

1. If you have regular weekend V/LA, you must either notify me each time or set V/LA tags each time.
2. This game will use a combination of manual and automated votecounts. (The automated ones are made using MathBlade's Vote Scrubber.) I will mainly start by posting an automated votecount and then edit in a manual one later. This allows me to spot errors in the automated votecount as well as build the voting history for the game.
3.

Please note the prod timers. You will be prodded after 32 hours on Tuesday-Friday.

4. brassherald replaces Atarashi Hajimari.

[valoneast]

A good scum player can pass off as town, so that makes any of my townreads this early meaningless.

Generally I like this, but isn't the point of D1 chat to see how people lean? The idea is that scum has limited information, so you for the most part you're just trying to decipher why people feel a certain way towards other. and their thinking behind it. I think at this point all 12 of us is just trying ask you how you lean.

[LuckyLuciano]

Im not really sure on the theory of mafia, but a quick D1 lynch isn't really town beneficial. I assume that you want to read people, see how wagon forms and such. You mentioned that you wanted a quick D1 lynch on post #14 and #26, so that causes for concern.

As the game's rolled on, it just sounds more and more like you took a shot in #36, where you mentioned that you've copied your town game, asking for an explanation how someone's thought process led you to believe that you were scum like. However this completely backfire as that argument itself made it scumesque. At this point I had a bit of scumread on you.

However, as I thought about it more and more, I realized that you were merely frustrated, and commenting on someone's argument of your "ploy" is actually quite logical, maybe executed poorly.

That makes sense. I'll correct you though and say that I wouldn't call my play a "ploy" and I wasn't expecting Clidd to attack it the way he did.

That

he attacked it, and

how

he did, I think is interesting, but I wasn't setting a trap for him. If I'm right to suspect him, then catching him was a happy accident that has nothing to do with my purpose in opening the way I did.

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

[farside22]

Note²: Ragman, describe your reads on the playerlist.

It's too early for me to townread anyone atm, I don't know anybody's metagames.

Scumread: Klick, Luciano

Why is it too early for you to town read people but not to scum-read them? By your logic, how would you know that say Luciano copying his town game wouldn't be something he usually does as town if you don't know his metagame?

I'm okay with Luciano copying his town game regardless of whether it's his metagame or not. I found #48 scummy.
A good scum player can pass off as town, so that makes any of my townreads this early meaningless. If I knew about how people would respond as town in other matches, I can back my townreads with better reason. Even without knowledge of anyone's metagames, it is possible to find AI posts, so scumreading can be backed with more reason early on.

Ragman, I need you to describe your impressions on players in addition to your scumreads. I can't Infer anything from your post 221.

zulfy's and clidds' openings seem to me like genuine curiosity to find scum. I find Hoctac's ISO pro town. Persivul, farside and sircakez look neutral to me.

Why is post 48 scummy?
Which post from zulfy seemed genuine?

@lucky: Your scum read on Clidd is all based on how you started the game and you think based on everything that happened he is scum reacting to your play that is no different then a game you played together....Is that the nutshell?

@Brass: What about Ragman's post made you unvote?

[valoneast]

You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately.

I think this is the worry we all have, why bother revealing this idea anyways? Why not just NOT bring of this argument. IMO I think you were trying a new move and are genuinely frustrated that people are fixated on this idea that you had to "copy your town game to seem town" for whatever reason that is. Your past posts have been all about defending that, and you sound genuinely annoyed/frustrated. Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

[valoneast]

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

Huh? Im not sure what you mean when you say Meta. But I think you're talking about my "theory"?

When I play mafia in real life, we generally just chat to see how people feel about each other, the idea is that since the mafia does know some information, they might lean heavier to one side or not, and the general public has no reason to lean any side at all.

I remember that playing in my first game here, but that was 7-8 years ago. What I don't understand are the terminologies. So I started this game quite quiet, as I couldn't contribute to people's playstyle, what "Advanced OMGUS" means and such. And I was genuinely confused as to how to even follow the conversation, let alone how to contribute to it. Leading to my little outburst.

[LuckyLuciano]

@farside, it's slightly more nuanced than that. Clidd attacked my opening under pretenses that he knows to be false. He explained that it was a reaction test, but my experience with him doesn't lead me to believe that he's the reaction test sort of player. The timing in which he switched from pushing me to defending me lines up with when I called him out on knowingly making a false attack. I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith, and that he seems to believe that I will be killed N1. I'm pretty sure he's said in another game that he would kill me N1 if he was mafia, so him already thinking about that this game is concerning to me. It also requires him to assume that I am town, which doesn't align with reaction testing me, and his presumption of guilt when engaging in the reaction test.

[Umlaut]

Lucky, I think you just need to explain what you were trying to do with copying your previous game, because it's going to be a constant distraction until you do and at this point almost certainly isn't going to accomplish whatever you were trying to do in the first place.

Zulfy, any updated thoughts? I liked your initial call-out of Lucky and I still like it but I'm starting to waver on actually scumreading him, are you still confident there and why?

[valoneast]

I find farside more and more towny as the game goes on. Decent questions, always asking for an explanation on why a certain decision was made. I guess scum can replicate this as well, but they mix in their opinions and really try to understand others and what they're saying.

[valoneast]

I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith

Why not? Isn't the point to see if any scum alarms get alerted when doing said reaction test? If you don't trigger it, then the assumption goes away? I'm confused about this.

[LuckyLuciano]

You can take my word for it and keep it in mind later in the game when it's more relevant for me to explain myself, or you can push for my reasoning immediately.

I think this is the worry we all have, why bother revealing this idea anyways? Why not just NOT bring of this argument. IMO I think you were trying a new move and are genuinely frustrated that people are fixated on this idea that you had to "copy your town game to seem town" for whatever reason that is. Your past posts have been all about defending that, and you sound genuinely annoyed/frustrated. Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

It seemed easier to indicate that my posts were near-exact copies of my posts from a prior game that Clidd was in to illustrate the bad faith in his push.

Could you clarify what you meant when you said that you, once again, had to clarify that you couldn't participate in meta discussions? As far as I'm aware, that was your first time mentioning it.

Huh? Im not sure what you mean when you say Meta. But I think you're talking about my "theory"?

When I play mafia in real life, we generally just chat to see how people feel about each other, the idea is that since the mafia does know some information, they might lean heavier to one side or not, and the general public has no reason to lean any side at all.

I remember that playing in my first game here, but that was 7-8 years ago. What I don't understand are the terminologies. So I started this game quite quiet, as I couldn't contribute to people's playstyle, what "Advanced OMGUS" means and such. And I was genuinely confused as to how to even follow the conversation, let alone how to contribute to it. Leading to my little outburst.

Meta refers to a player's overall tendencies, beyond this particular game. The post I'm talking about is,

Heard my name.

You guys are absolutely going at breakneck speeds here. I know the newb card will get me more flak, but I've been reading every post so far, trying to follow along. I mean, about 50% of the argument is linked to your prior game(s),

which once again

, I CAN'T CONTRIBUTE IN.

Not sure how you guys play your games, but when I've got something to contribute. I will.

Emphasis on the bolded part. You never mentioned that you couldn't contribute to discussions about prior games before, so I'm trying to figure out what you meant when you said, "once again".

[LuckyLuciano]

Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

Where did you first hear the term breadcrumbing? And since you seem to think my breadcrumb is obvious, why not share it with the class?

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm also worried that he seemed to have operated under the assumption that I was scum prior to engaging in the reaction test, which doesn't show good faith

Why not? Isn't the point to see if any scum alarms get alerted when doing said reaction test? If you don't trigger it, then the assumption goes away? I'm confused about this.

If you are assuming that the person you are testing is scum, you are giving in to confirmation bias. This also ties back to Zulfy's post asking Clidd if there was any reaction I could have given that wouldn't lead him to arguing that I'm town. Clidd didn't seem to have a coherent idea of what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am town, and what sorts of reactions would indicate that I am scum. It felt more like he was scumpainting and he backed off when I called him out on it.

[brassherald]

@Brass: What about Ragman's post made you unvote?

It's very hedgey, to me. He's going out of his way to say that "Hey, look I have town reads, but also later on, if I decide to lynch my town reads without any reasoning, it's totally cool because it's day 1."

Makes me uneasy to be on the wagon with him.

[brassherald]

As an addendum, we do have plenty of time to figure this out, I would probably not have unvoted if we only had like 3 days left.

[valoneast]

@brassherald, while I don't mind your semi list of thoughts, and I understand that reading a forum is hard not in real time, could you maybe state why you think for example Clidd is okay here? or like why people seem scummy. It just seems to me that you haven't really contributed anything since you came in. Even though your iso has been like...10+ posts.

[Umlaut]

I'm going to keep my vote where it's at for now, but I support the Ragman wagon.

Why is this? Why not support the wagon by voting on it? I get that it would be L–1 but is that the only reason?

[SirCakez]

I feel like i did when i created a game where everyone had 2 votes that they could use to either vote a player twice or split their votes between 2 scum reads. If i could do that I'd vote for cakez too right now.

Talk to me about this read because I'm not seeing Cakez scum at all. He could certainly be efforting more (hey Cakez, you really need to effort more) but he just seems like low-energy town. His tone is pretty free and his impressions of the game look natural and unforced, and he's transparent about being sort of lost.

Cakez makes more of an effort typically. The lack of follow through and really good reads or free following thoughts are missing from him.
IE: this game not the typical town cakez.

I'm disengaged :/
Trying to effort more now

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.
I like Lucky's recent posts better. I think it's plausible that he just had foot in mouth.
Klick has done nothing to improve my read there so
VOTE: Klick

[SirCakez]

would like to see Zulfy progress past the Lucky push from opening

[brassherald]

@brassherald, while I don't mind your semi list of thoughts, and I understand that reading a forum is hard not in real time, could you maybe state why you think for example Clidd is okay here? or like why people seem scummy. It just seems to me that you haven't really contributed anything since you came in. Even though your iso has been like...10+ posts.

Have you ever played with Not_Mafia?

He's my hero.

[SirCakez]

valoneast reads really earnest and town. Like he wants to get back into scumhunting.

[valoneast]

Breadcrumbing (I think that's what is called) a little less obvious next time, if you're actually breadcrumbing.

Where did you first hear the term breadcrumbing? And since you seem to think my breadcrumb is obvious, why not share it with the class?

Like I said, here, I remember an example of it when I played here 7-8 years ago. There was a post on the wiki dictating how someone pieced so that each of the first letters in their first post so they spelled "I'm the doctor"

Or something cringey, I forgot. But the idea of it was so you can refer to it later on. I think you meant to do it less obvious, and not have the entire town come after you. I'm not trying to criticize the way you play, but I'm just thinking that it kinda defeats the purpose of this.

As for what you're breadcrumbing, no idea, but something that requires you to seem town in the beginning, not sure however WHY you'd want to do that by just stating it out loud. Thats why I think some people are angry at you and getting scumreads from doing this.

[valoneast]

valoneast reads really earnest and town. Like he wants to get back into scumhunting.

TBH I realized my previous outburst isn't actually helping anybody at all. I really just forgot how to play this game in the beginning 5 pages or so. Not being lynched isn't the goal, but if I can help out with the reads and leans then awesome.

[brassherald]

brassherald is not improving my read on the Atarashi slot. Hate that entrance.

I'm sorry you don't like my stand up specials, I also do magic.

[clidd]

I'm back, reading soon.