Open 778: Nightless Vanilla [Game Over!]

[Isis]

I also think that if there are any doubts re: my alignment, lynch me now or never.

I didn't have any before this post!

Ugh wait the last time someone did this it was mislynch

I hate these kinds of posts ftr

[Isis]

townreads:
{Isis, HEM}
{Looker, GC}
{Elements}
{Deimos}

I am not gonna doubt Isis anymore. Fine with her for remainder of game.

This reads list needs firebringer at the bottom

[Isis]

How quickly can I learn finnish

[Isis]

Wait did I actually scumread norwee from day 1 and leave him alive for several dayphases to let him suffer?
I'm a monster
No wonder he hates me

[Isis]

It takes a 3 card townblock to win now I think?

I want to townblock with elements
He's an axolotl

[Isis]

I don't want to lynch anyone I townread like everybody

[Isis]

Ame says that Looker interacts with others less as scum.

Elements focuses on having a plan to win the game as scum so I would keep that in mind when reading him.

Firebringer is half fire, half canine

Green crayons seems like he's emotionally distant to an extent that matches scum, even though he's interested in the events of the game. It's hard to put to words

[Isis]

Those thoughts were all kind of prompted by "any tips for rereading"

[Isis]

Green crayons seems like he's emotionally distant to an extent that matches scum, even though he's interested in the events of the game. It's hard to put to words

is this even scum-indicative?

empirically, but I don't really have a thesis for how it relates to the scum wincon in sincerity

[Isis]

I would have been on ABR wagon if I was given time, I think. Maybe even votato wagon. Probably not Aliwagon, ultimately.

[Isis]

what was the tell on me earlier, I don't remember

I kinda wanna kill verdant Crayola

if Green Crayons is mafia I can upgrade my Firebringer townread to townlock.

[Isis]

Looker has crazy offconsensus reads of what he believes about the game as both alignments iirc.

[Isis]

D:

[Isis]

VOTE: Finals

[Isis]

VOTE: Finnish

[Isis]

VOTE: Firebringerscum

[Isis]

Unfortunately maths is one of my strongest subjects.

[Isis]

You wouldn't be postponing gameplay because stealing pagetops from northsidegal is gameplay

[Isis]

You townread Deimos? But you just wanted to kill him?

[Isis]

you have an entire week to sort antitown play

[Isis]

Getting to try to sort Looker would be another reason to go slow.

[Isis]

human are you scum?

[Isis]

You are scum for wanting to lynch someone different based on whether it's LyLo-X or LyLo-Y. It makes no sense at all from a town POV but makes sense for scum that needs a certain sized lynchpool for different gamestates.

[Isis]

So why don't you want to lynch Deimos right now if you don't think you ever vote him in LyLo?

I really don't like this whole x then y then z stuff rather than voting scum for being scummy it comes of xanatos gambitty

[Isis]

yes you are acting scummy you're lucky I trust Firebringer

[Isis]

every person in this game is scum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I'm not gonna say northsidegal is scum and I'm definitely not going to claim she has PT access and knew whether each lynch this game would flip town or scum.

[Isis]

That's what I'M saying. Now that we have two mislynches, I wanna lynch scum for being scummy — namely Looker. It's just that I don't trust my reads and I'm not about to lead town into my wrong reads if there's no allowance for mistakes.

ok so why did you want to play mafia incorrectly previously

you win mafia games by lynching scum

[Isis]

Deimos's alignment doesn't change when the game becomes "clutch". You make no sense. I generally presume anything that makes no sense to me is scum-indicative unless I can characterize it the other way around

[Isis]

Why can't Deimos GC be a scumteam?

[Isis]

I've proven that my reads are bad.

[Isis]

[Isis]

That's pretty compelling

[Isis]

I send Looker many friend requests but he never truly embraces our friendship

[Isis]

I think that's my favorite pair as of right now but I don't think this game is easymodo or anything

[Isis]

I've townread everyone in this game at some point this game except northsidegal

[Isis]

Well if he doesn't agree with a consensus monkey townread and sees himself with high mislynch equity, we're in a 2:5 nightless setup with no amount of scumreading scum so we have negative EV with negative dayplay factors on top of it. So yeah I think it would be objectively correct.

[Isis]

I didn't say his reads make sense, I'm just saying it follows from the premises that the game would be in a bad state.

[Isis]

I have some time right now, in a couple

[Isis]

Spoiler:

My name means Goddess not Terrorist.

Your name is the plural form of Ice. It's when you want more than one Ice - you get Isis

Isis who's your alt

L used to be my avatar as well

your mom

your mom is also your girlfriend

---

• @Norway: Please try harder than last time

VOTE: Green Crayons That is such a lovely name

This is a bit scum indicative for Looker, I think, he opened up with a sort of inorganic attempt to talk to everyone once when I saw him role scum and was more reactive in Purg.

Wait... so i’m the mafia?

Okay. VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

I'm thinking looker town atm and fire town

So far on page 4 these two have offered a grand total of approximately zero actual gamesolving content. Some people are proud about their ability to scumhunt through fluff. I am not. Why are these players town?

"Gamesolving content" How pretentious. You think you're actually L, don't you? Do you feel that Albert, Alisae, and Elements are all town? Do you feel that either Cycle Men or NorwegianboyEE are scum?

Ehh. I’d prefer to base my reads around flips and wagon analyzis in a nightless. But i guess my weaker personal reads for go to scum would be fluffposter Firebringer and Lurkey Cycleman. Looker be looking kinda bad too. But he has an abhorrent towngame in my experience so anything goes.

So much effort.

Is this a serious vote?

Define "serious". If you're asking if it counted toward a lynch, it did.

Because some slots seem more like "town not giving a fuck" vs "scum intentionally not doing anything".

Which are which?

kinda waiting for looker to just do more

Anything specific? Got any questions for me? Or did you just want to come off townie with that comment?

Norwegian, who is scum?

Ehh. I’d prefer to base my reads around flips and wagon analyzis in a nightless. But i guess my weaker personal reads for go to scum would be fluffposter Firebringer and Lurkey Cycleman. Looker be looking kinda bad too. But he has an abhorrent towngame in my experience so anything goes.
A bit dissapointed Alisae hasn’t been on my ass more ever since that initial push. The fact that they pushed a scumread before becoming relatively toned down points to bad mojo if you ask me man.

I’m letting the game develop

I remember you being impossibly aggressive as scum

---

• Extraction is a pretty good movie on Netflix
  
• You guys sure do like to post

---

• @Green Crayons: Yes, I'm the FBI. Different country, but same thing.
  
• @Elements: Be my guest.

Forgive me if I don't banter with y'all, but...yeah.

I think that's a vote that Norwee vote looks bad postflip considering the timing and lack of effort. He goes on to maintain a narrative of being anti Norwee iirc but doesn't actually push Norwee and it looks planned associatives going wrong.

Nightless is kind of unfair

The WIFOM in complaining about a scum advantage is present on its face. What isn't WIFOM, though, is to be thinking about night at all, which is somewhat more likely for scum!Looker. Or I guess I should say, thinking about future phases. The WIFOM of being bold enough to complain about a town advantage cancels itself out but the topic coming up at all is a bit of black smudge.

@humandevouringamonkey:

Looker identified a nickname for me in an early post but didn't use it, but he kept using nicknames for you. I tinfoil if that could mean you're aligned with him and I'm not.

I don't understand this golden group thing.

This is a much more scum indicative way to comment about theory of partitioning a town than raising a more specific objection. It mimics paranoia to appear town without actually solving the implications that a false theory of the game suggests. Later he says he thinks it's a monkey + Firebringer conspiracy but it bothers me that he doesn't lead with that.

Are you drunk?

This struck me as a bit town indicative when it was posted. A more natural scum approach would be to just criticize rather than show curiosity about causation.

It would seem I scumread more of his posts than I can townread by volume. I guess I give him a harsh bar for scumplay/townplay if that doesn't make me excited to say he must be scum

[Isis]

I think u2 could be scum 2gether

[Isis]

I ship it

[Isis]

especially since he refuses to be my friend

Code: Select all

:(

[Isis]

what does looker say about me in the scum PT?

[Isis]

He has a much more appealing avatar, you shouldn't be surprised

[Isis]

i'm laughing out loud at Looker

Looker is amazing

I can't stop laughing

If making me laugh is scum-indicative I wanna gamethrow then

[Isis]

VOTE: greencrayons until he delivers

[Isis]

i think the point of the meme might be that i'm supposed to be voting HEM because it wasn't very organic to request the exercise. I don't know

[Isis]

Looker definitely doesn't catch his flies with honey

[Isis]

.3333333333333333333

[Isis]

Deimos please come scumread me I need it

[Isis]

I'm pretty iffy on the value of a vc in the 25th post

[Isis]

Shush. I'm making sure I know how to do the basic color coding.

you don't you didn't color my name green

[Isis]

I'm not a fly but I'm a butterfly, do you want me Looker?

[Isis]

gc pls sr me

[Isis]

i am hassing apple vodkas

[Isis]

u obviously haven't been listening to deimos my scumgame is to tmi bus my partners thats not a scum vca

[Isis]

deimos come scumread me

[Isis]

monkey you can scumread me it's okay

[Isis]

I'm stressed don't ask me!?!?!?!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Isis]

firebringer has really good readds

[Isis]

Is it wrong I want to kill GC the most?

[Isis]

I refuse to reread please scumread me for it

[Isis]

I've proven that my reads are bad.

[Isis]

really try to focus on the NKA as you reread

[Isis]

Is it wrong I want to kill GC the most?

i'll interpret that as a no

[Isis]

I'm not going to teach scum!votato how to play scum correctly when I want scum!votato to play scum incorrectly and pursue his godawful "mislynch the threats" thesis.

Presenting my arguments for why you shouldn't play that way would influence him to not to something that's going to expose scum!votato and get him redlynched.

[Isis]

monkey you've kind of gotten into your own head at this point.

I was pretty explicit about scumreading Norwee and wanting to sequence lynches differently from that anyway. If you want to swap wines and read the tea leaves in the way where that makes me scum, you can go for that, but writing a story where I said I scumread Norwee and sneakily didn't push him and hoped that no one would notice is pretty dumb. Please be not dumb.

[Isis]

it would be fun to be scumread intelligently like by paranoia that I TMI bussed Cycle Men like Deimos said once

too much of it goes against my wincon, actually any of it goes against my wincon, but memes are fun.

[Isis]

VOTE: Deimos

[Isis]

monkey
goodness
what is with you and thinking that games have one shot cult effects as they enter lylo

[Isis]

Green Crayons you can be my friend even if you're scum

[Isis]

I kind of feel like I want Deimos to be town but know I don't have a reason to believe it, but I have reasons I ought to believe Elements is town. And also want Elements to be town. So Deimos seems like a better lynch. But maybe he can ace a final and then megatownspew or something

[Isis]

I'm not gonna be convincing anyone here. I get it. The game is lost.

Is this genuine? You've believed I'm scum for 3% of the game, based on no new info, and "the game is lost"?

[Isis]

Spoiler:

Hem do you think I'm scum and if so have you looked at the contrast in my voting tendencies as town and scum?

Was there a reason why you picked those four games? It's not like I'm going to prove you wrong or anything, like I'm going to go through and snoop through your old shit.

I move my vote a lot as town
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=81277&user_select[]=32224
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80818&user_select[]=32224
I don't as scum
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=80513&user_select[]=32224
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=80648&user_select[]=32224

pls don't mod kill me

ohhh lol.

VOTE: Deimos

ITS TIME!

IF YOU BELIEVE IN ME. FOLLOW! IF YOU DONT STAY OUT OF THE WAY!

If deimos is scum. He isn't scum with Elements!

I'm confused. What exactly is happening?

• Because Elements linked some games where he moved his vote, he's town? Do the quality of the reasons in his town games match up to the quality of the reasons in this one?
  • I'm asking because I know I'm not going to read them - I can barely read this one.
  • Side note: Do you still think people are scum because of low post counts?

---

• HEM has proven me wrong, but I don't want to trust him. I need somebody else (other than Firebringer) to tell me that he's right.

Isis: Tell me that HEM is right and that I should kill you.

It's challenging to try to offset the biases that come from activity differentials.

As for whether I would be likely to be offwagon for every mislynch in a nightless setup I'll share some info about my mentality. Hopefully nsg will make a PT for all modkilled neutral survivors and I'll be able to hang out with Elements.
viewtopic.php?p=11280665#p11280665

In Deathlist I was onwagon for every single mislynch IIRC, in Starry Night it was bus-ML-ML- offwagon for ML - bus - got lynched while pushing a mislynch iirc

[Isis]

This post breaks site rules by mentioning that Nightless Vanilla is an ongoing game, nsg will be able to delete it and post her hyphen

"-"

-nsg

[Isis]

I told Deimos in the scum PT to be sure to meta me and see I bus a lot, so that people would interpret my hard defense of Elements the wrong way. Elements' next post in the scum PT was a cute meme of us hugging

[Isis]

are you calling me more skilled than you?

[Isis]

Norwee is a boy
The lynching votato first thingy was pretty dang bad

[Isis]

what if we compromise and I forever ignore your reads starting with when you said "I've proven my reads are bad this game"

[Isis]

why is gc towny?

[Isis]

uh, sure. Do you see my resistance to your lynch as being softer or less meaningfully timed?

[Isis]

well, I'm a softie

[Isis]

I think Looker meant "Did you think Deimos would be lynched before you got back were it not for the unvote"

Elements has probably exited his scumrange but not in a way that makes me feel confident and bold. Especially when I have too many townreads.

Has Firebringer just played the best scumgame I've seen out of him? Maybe that's what's going on.

[Isis]

Times I have talked about. The particular brand of openwolfing where he says he's townreading people purely on reciprocation is seeming too wolfy to be wolf to me

What if we lynched Firebringer then sheeped all his reads.
I think maybe I could be down for that by this point.

[Isis]

I feel like you are planning to flip script mislynch me after not pressuring me all game GC and that's like scarier than monkey rereading into a crazy pant-on-head scumcase

[Isis]

Monkey?

[Isis]

im so pocketed rn

[Isis]

im listening to john mayer and being pocketedddd

[Isis]

pretty nonsequitier HME

FB is probably the best at reading me on-site and RCEnigma is probably the best onsite at reading me+articulating why.

it's correlated but not coordinated capabilities.

Elements has like 9999 d1 ML's and i've only participated in such a d1 ML as scum so it's not an unreasonable stance for him to take I think.

It seems really inductive to draw an equivalence between articulating a belief well and being correct in it

[Isis]

VOTE: No Lynch

[Isis]

Sheep my vote tho

[Isis]

It's strictly better than your current vote status

[Isis]

I thought we had plurality lynch, but my statement is still true because hammering no lynch quicker reduces how much time we get total and data shows town wins more with shorter deadlines

[Isis]

Votecount 6.Final

Target	Wagon
Isis (1)	humaneatingmonkey (3129)
Firebringer (1)	Looker (2932)
humaneatingmonkey (1)	Elements (3290)
No Lynch (1)	Isis (3301)
Not Voting (3)	Deimos27, Green Crayons , Firebringer (3198)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Nobody was lynched.

See look my name is up higher in the VC because I'm better

[Isis]

Tell me more

[Isis]

im so pocketed rn

im listening to john mayer and being pocketedddd

What does this mean? Are you saying that you're irrationally siding with a player because you're listening to music? Is it even possible to be pocketed while being aware you're being pocketed?

I think I was drunk when I posted that, but I think listening to john mayer when I didn't really want to and townreading elements when I'm not sure it's right seemed like a metaphor for eachother at the time. I actually hate john mayer and feel like the personality projected by his music is the kind of person I probably wouldn't want to be friends with, there is creeping narcissism, and a world paradigm more boring than he thinks it is. Nonetheless a john mayer song I used to like was stuck in my head and I played a song one time to try to sweat it out

I do think in both cases, cognizance of what is going on doesn't help me.
Listening to the song was a bad choice

[Isis]

Where did you see that town does better with shorter deadlines?

VOTE: Firebringer

There was a mafia discussion thread about newbie queue winrates shifting a large amount on year when the deadlines transitioned to be much shorter

[Isis]

Elements i think could be town, he could have posted that post about his meta and was worried about being modkilled because he was mod killed for claiming he did a trust tell before, which makes me a bit nervous.

I think it's an NAI joke, I think he's worked out that that modkill was a once-in-a-decade awful moderation that doesn't generally happen.
If you want to scumread Elly this game I wouldn't get nervous over that.

[Isis]

I'm caught up now

I like Deimos's wagon analysis. I'm not even sure it's necessary to dock points for too many competing wagons, it's unlikely for dueling wagons to both be scum when there's only two wagons, but in gamestates where there are two scum wagons, going to a third does little harm. I was involved in a game recently where we were counterwagoning scum onto scum (it was green red red but kind of similar).

I mostly feel like HEM is town who is gamethrowing by scumreading me and it's a bit dispiriting. I think I need a lot of guesses at this scumteam because lots of people have projected a lot of towniness this game.

[Isis]

Elements if I was nullreading you, would you still townread me?

[Isis]

I can't

[Isis]

Isis-Hem-Elements could win the game except it doesn't because hem just wants to do nothing but lynch townies in exchange for his life

[Isis]

lonely tylenol

[Isis]

A man, a plan, a canal, Panama!

[Isis]

Firebringer is it ok if we lynch you and deadsheep your reads?

I kind of think you're mastermind scum

[Isis]

I think I'm leaning Looker here

[Isis]

VOTE: Firebringer

[Isis]

3389 is such goodposting

before the AtE
I was unaffected by the AtE
maybe

[Isis]

I like the Alisae quote he sourced

I am reminded of the time azuresky hard townread me and was so demoralized by my noncooperation with her that she repped out

[Isis]

I don't actually want to lynch you to sheep your reads per se. I feel like the possibility space where you are scum is the only one I feel worried about losing? So I need to lynch you. Like it has to do with a lot of associative patterns amongst the slots with scum potential. If you're not scum, I feel like I'm going to win anyway, I think GC scum really couldn't afford to amplify Deimos's voice a second ago, and then it's just like 2/2 in Looker Deimos (doesn't clear Deimos the way it clears GC because Deimos is more hailmary positioned).

[Isis]

And like, I was hard townreading you based on play itself yes but I ought to have some humility, and the way the uncharacteristically high content you've produced has led to scum lynches is, it hasn't led to scum lynches all that impressively has it? And for someone who effing loves to play scum, I really ought to check myself on how I interpret volume itself. In recent history you've been immensely lackadaisical as scum, pretty wet towel in apocalypse and chiptune, haven't remembered you having a good time since AvP.

[Isis]

I might be getting into recency bias too

I spend a lot of time thinking about how much of large theme scum winrate is the effect of recency bias on games of mafia

i'd say that's a digression but the extra wait for deimos week plus the missing nights kind of puts this game at a 18p's pace? so maybe it's not a digression


bias is bad, I might be throwing

will you still like me if I throw a game firebringer

[Isis]

I'm not demotivated, Elements was demotivated, by Firebringer

[Isis]

Firebringer if you're town there's scum in your townreads at this point so
we all lose sometimes
mafia is hard ok
cut me some slack

[Isis]

I think of dispiriting and demotivating as different

dispiriting means like the corners of my mouth are turning downwards demotivating means the actual will of me is being sapped and you would anticipate less action from me

the dictionary might say i'm factually wrong, that's whatever, but a minority single person in the town thinking i'm scum doesn't keep me from playing the game, so i'm gonna play the game, but when I go through the effort of really giving someone a fair shake when I really just want to vengemurder them for killing ali while I was afk and promising to get lynched if it's wrong yeah i'm unhappy enough to want some kind of four dollar word for it

[Isis]

a;fdlsjkl;

literally
I townread everybody for different things
which makes me kind of want to lynch one of the people that is on record with "lmao i'm cool with being lynched"
and those people don't get how that sentiment might start to develop
I can kind of follow the progression of just omgussing anyway
but it makes me pretty annoyed with having the playstyle of "lmao i'm cool with being lynched"

[Isis]

UNVOTE:

[Isis]

I think I'm uncharacteristically brave about casting my vote on a partner as scum at the right moment and manipulating my own VCA as scum.
I'm nothing special at managing associations in general.
Deimos determining that I'm not matching my general attitude towards partnership is insightful.
Since GC is focusing so much on the votes themselves I'm kind of sympathetic to your view he's being naïve, would be less sympathetic to calling Deimos naïve.

[Isis]

I only bus the weak
unfortunately almost everyone is weak
when I roll scum with strong players I won't bus and will even defend them, like I did in apocalypse and monty hall

[Isis]

i'm skeptical you would think anyone would develop the personal philosophy of "bus literally everyone"

[Isis]

My philosophy is that for the most part each game has 1 deepwolf you can use to win the game, and sometimes you sweep, but really the sweep is a game the deepwolf would have won solo even if you modkilled one of the mafia. Keeping extra players alive has the benefit of keeping both players well positioned and in control of dialogue, and importantly increases the number of deepwolves you can select from as the game develops, as you can only select who that will be based on playerlist in the most extreme cases.

Cycle Men is an extreme case where Night zero I would see him as having no potential of being the wincondition. Norwee is not nearly that bad, as evidenced by his survival extra phases in that fusion game which is a pretty good performance when he was hobbled by being forced to tmi townread scumpartners who were playing awful.
I think shading Norwee so much it became very difficult that he could possibly endgame isn't quite in line with the way I'd want to play. Being on his lynch during the dayphase it actually occurred, yes, by that point it was definitely and clearly more likely that nsg would be listing my name as one of the living players when the game concluded compared to Norwee. But not so early in day one.

[Isis]

FL won ten scumgames last year with no bussing, there's just more than one way to skin a cat and different situations that call for different measures and mafia is a complicated game

[Isis]

GC and Deimos are both describing characteristics this bus would have had if it were a bus, and you're just responding with "bussing isn't TI for Isis". Yes that's true. That wasn't the argument though, the argument was about characteristics of busses.

[Isis]

the universe where hme is feigning this level of dumbness and gets a win with it is scary
but i'm going to sheep firebringer and some stuff I was thinking earlier that I don't remember well right now

[Isis]

also some sort of VCA thing deimos and gc were talking about

that I don't remember that well because VCA bores me I guess

[Isis]

The number of living scum is such that 2 people agreeing on something being townreadable is inherently worthy of authenticity but I hate when I have to rearrange the chairs in my brain about that.

[Isis]

you're not dumb as a characteristic but you are making some posts I consider dumb

[Isis]

im not dumb

i am

you're scum

[Isis]

like 3426 is a dumb post

[Isis]

I'm dispirited by HEM and that makes me motivationally unable to cast a vote on you even though it doesn't involve him

[Isis]

I don't know who scum is right now and am just gonna S_S my vote for a little bit

[Isis]

nsg could you color the names of town green in the votecount

[Isis]

yes you were, you were so interested you hit the quote button associated with it

[Isis]

elements it's not your fault that firebringer is a tsundere

[Isis]

I'm p surprised Looker's avatar is himself and not some minor celebrity. I always figured it was too attractive a person to not have been artificially selected.

[Isis]

I just finished gamethrowing a LyLo if you want to read that.

I don't deliberately mess with my playstyle in games, but I think as both town and scum my perception of whether it's desirable for me to be "leadery" changes a whole lot and that changes the way I play a whole lot. When I think back on some of my games I feel like I wonder if leadery games and followery games seem like more meaningful groupings than my scumgames and towngames. That's the only kind of playstyle modulation I spend much time thinking about

[Isis]

I'm going afk I plan to give more to the prompt than that


Btw

[Isis]

I think overall this game I've been more of a follower, and when I'm a follower I'm looking to amplify the points of ideas of people who are accurately casing the game and discredit the points and ideas of people who are off kilter. It becomes less important to propose fresh paradigms, if it was important to propose fresh paradigms, those are the games where I would have picked to be more of a leader this. This game is chock full of content and like not all of it is right.

Without going back through how you were casing me, partly because I'm lazy partly because it probably is more helpful to do it this way anyway, I think you're probably misreading me because my voting record is only one phase off of being a clone of what I'd have for a scum voting record and because I'm approaching this game wanting to discredit or megaphone people and it looks underhanded. In particular I really want to discredit you, and want other people not to listen to your own thoughts, and really maybe it'd be great if you stopped listening to your own thoughts and found some different ones. Lots of people discredit townies as scum to try to win because it's easier. I don't really do that as scum because it's a pretty consistent zero-wine-swaps thing to interpret as scummy.

A lot of Firebringer's assessment of the game has made lots of sense, with the "Golden group" thing making a lot of sense at the time it was proposed with mainly only GC tossing town equity overboard away from that. With the current size of the game it kind of PoEs Firebringer himself to be scum and I've explained plenty of times why that's not a problem to me the way it would be for someone with a different username. Sometimes scum just give you the right answers. In purgatory I started townreading Ank and explained why, and she told me why all my reasons weren't really internally consistent and well supported. Her reasoning was really logical so I believed it and later I redlynched her. Like you can get so far, so so far, if you just look at the quality of ideas presented in a game, on their own logic, and just follow the ones that are good logic.

For example earlier in this game I correctly identified a feature of Norwee's play that was scummy. You have a confirmed townie who agreed with that analysis, since you murderlated Alisae. Beeteedubs, would be really great if you played in a way that internalized that you mistakenly murdertunneled Alisae and e flipped town because it strongly seems like you are not doing that especially with respect to how you are not also shifting to a follower playstyle as a result, there is surely someone in this game presenting an accurate paradigm for the game that you could follow and that should be a good idea if things haven't gone well for you on the same playing feel.
But anyway what I was saying with the post, is it was an accurate idea. Forget about whether I killed Norwee the same dayphase I presented it or did it later or the wifom of saying he's scum and I'll kill him later. The idea is correct. Ideas matter, and they're worth paying attention to. Whether I would present an idea that accurately scumcases a partner is its own WIFOM. Skip that, I'm a bit sick of the WIFOM. Is the likelihood I think of the analysis (one a townie is confirmed to have resonated with) higher or lower if I'm town versus scum? It's town indicative.
It's only a morsel admittedly but towncasing oneself is pretty hard. I'm trying to figure out which players has the right paradigm for this game and get their article on the front page of the newspaper. That was exactly my approach to the game in Fusion Mafia, the game with Norwee, that keeps getting brought up, where I thought Ank's assessment of the game seemed pretty good and I planned to sheep it until such a point as it had been disproven. In this game it's less obvious to me who the hero is. GC is making too much damn sense lately, I'll tell you that. I have some reservations about a lot of his past play e.g. votato lynch and I'm running into some WIFOM of how he might be PoEing himself out of the game, but I have little reason to doubt his ideas so I want us to really consider. That means townblocking elements even though he is like, well he's elements it's hard to do that sometimes. Whether GC is scum is pretty irrelevant if the ideas are developed well. None of your ideas, at least for tunneling me, are developed well, which is why at least 3 people have told you you're not making sense and that's too many that they're all scum. It's going to benefit me if you recenter. Even if you're scum! Which isn't fully ruled out. The deathtunnel is too dumb and if I let you vanity wagon it when it's not supported I'm gonna give you a lot of room to hide which is why this seems worth wallposting a little bit because maybe you can townread me as town or at least I'm gonna force you to do some feignwork about reconsiderations

[Isis]

does watching my games include scumsman btw, it was a hydra game so my username wasn't available

[Isis]

regardless of whether Deimos is the next lynch I wanna play more forum mafia with him this day phase

[Isis]

Don't say that it'd be town indicative for you

[Isis]

don't you want to be scum?

[Isis]

-hug-

[Isis]

I'm an entire phase off from my actual scum voting pattern, norwee push never gets delayed to the phase it was if I'm scum

[Isis]

I really have to be most interested in lynching Deimos out of those options but I'm not happy about it he's so fun

[Isis]

The timing of norwee's lynch is off for how I'd play scum, but even ignoring that, why don't you realize that some games you would have had the voting record no matter what you rolled? I was scum with N_M in deathlist and I killed him as the third lynch because he's worthless. I was town against N_M in permanent marker and I red lynched him as the third lynch because he's worthless.

What about this game makes you think my belief that norwee was probscum wasn't genuine?

[Isis]

FB when I voted you u made me feel bad with AtE :/ you're not being fair

[Isis]

Deimos FB looker gc is my lynch order atm. But I will say that you sound like you're describing a lot of people being, like "I think x is a little scummiest than Y but I want to keep sifting" whereas I am more so at "I think x y and z are dead ties so that's why I don't want to lynch."

[Isis]

VOTE: firebringer don't be a firerunt about it this time

[Isis]

But also maybe just visit the thread less often firebringer? Like I kind of want to play mafia with people who are playing at more of a 2008 pace. Measuring game pace based on 8 thread checks per day when others are at 1-2 isn't exactly fair


Just because I'm at 8 thread checks too doesn't mean I want to to push at a disproportionate pace

[Isis]

This is a game that lynched like 2 people without me getting up to date while I wasn't remotely proddable I still remember that

[Isis]

I think gc looks bad if Deimos is town because gc kind of pushed towards him as lhf d1 iirc
I think I'd be a little relieved about firebringer if looker was scum?
If GC is scum that makes me think firebringer is town and it makes gc lynch appealing but I've largely given up on it.

[Isis]

I think he's scum. I don't know he's scum. Sometimes it's more important on making the right choices in an unlikely universe where you can make a change than it is to try to bruteforce everyone into joining a likely universe no one is interested in.

[Isis]

Deimos FB looker gc is my lynch order atm. But I will say that you sound like you're describing a lot of people being, like "I think x is a little scummiest than Y but I want to keep sifting" whereas I am more so at "I think x y and z are dead ties so that's why I don't want to lynch."

Notice the fact that these are all dead ties, but she has never really made any effort to sift through this lynch order who is scum.

The prime lynch candidate is the least active player and I'm trying to get more information to work with.
There's no post I can make in this thread and forward to finland that would get Deimos expelled

[Isis]

on the topic,

@nsg Deimos proud in sixty minutes or less

[Isis]

why did you townread me for the first portion of this game, again, hem?

[Isis]

prime according to popularity, not according to me. You're correct that it doesn't matter that he's prime, if anyone in the tie was inactive I'd want more play before lynching.

[Isis]

That sounds like the sort of thing you don't want to answer in front of scum!any of them

[Isis]

I don't ask very many questions as a part of my playstyle so if you're looking at that as a delta to other peoples' behavior you'll get a false positive

[Isis]

Elements you have broken my heart

[Isis]

I like Elly

[Isis]

Am I allowed to unvote yet, firebringer?

[Isis]

But I can't love anyone else's scumminess the way I love yours fire

[Isis]

VOTE: green crayons

Why did you stop townreading green crayons, fire?

[Isis]

VOTE: Deimos

[Isis]

Am I allowed to unvote yet, firebringer?

FB IS ONE OF YOUR "EQUAL SCUMREADS". WHY DID YOU UNVOTE AT L-1?

He was acting towny. That breaks the equality

[Isis]

It's stated in thread, already, disinterest in the game is town-indicative for firebringer. It should mitigate that somewhat that he's aware of it, but I'm not sure he cares enough to mitigate his own meta? Of course if he's scum, he cares more, that the paradox.

It's. It hard to break a tie, that's why it's a tie.

[Isis]

We only no lynched once

[Isis]

Playing to a draw isn't playing to your win condition. I'm a little irked by the presence of the feature in this game but I would rather lose then draw

[Isis]

If you draw, you did not win. If you lose, you did not win.

Draw means "both sides lose".
It doesn't mean "both sides win".

[Isis]

Assuming without deciding there's anything desirable about a draw, the ninth rule of the site says you're not allowed to pursue it since it disables your win condition.

Mafia is "guess what win condition everyone is playing to" so not playing to it makes it as fundamentally unplayable as Mario brothers with no jump button

[Isis]

I'm voting Deimos atm

[Isis]

GC is pocketing me

[Isis]

I actually think GC is just probably town but i want to be pocketed and treasured

[Isis]

<3 Deimos

[Isis]

VOTE: Firebringer

[Isis]

If I can garcia, AKing is "Answer Keying" and it means knowing the correct answer due to being mafia and working backwards.

[Isis]

now that there is only 1 scum, scum!Firebringer is always goldengrouping a full town group which I've explained several times this game why that fits my concept of his personality and how he'd want to play scum.

[Isis]

wao

[Isis]

if this flips green the next lynch is a slow lynch

[Isis]

I think my self-excluded winning townblock at this point would be Elements-HEM, but I want to give thought to whether GC to move in amongst them.

I wish I could townread Looker more, he's had plenty of fun takes but I just don't think I've encountered strong reasons to believe he's town, just weak ones.

I think it's worth noting that Deimos, Clemency, and Norwee is a set of three players with pretty low "charisma", as the term has been bandied on MD from time to time, pretty low alignment independent capabilities of avoiding lynch. Putting Elements or Looker as the fourth means interpreting this whole game as one where nobody on the whole scumteam had good charisma, putting HEM or GC as the fourth means interpreting the game with three more endangered players and a fourth with a lot more tenacity.
I'll avoid reviewing my own restaurant and leave the fifth possibility as an exercise for the reader

[Isis]

If only one of those two things is true, you could select correctly and always make a gamewinning townblock

I'm not big pictury enough to confidently do that, I think, but maybe I'll take attempt at it. It's something I plan to think about later

[Isis]

elements sing me the beautiful songs of your people what is going through your brain ments?

[Isis]

You sometimes don't have any experience with a player beyond the current one to ascertain whether a player probably has high "ability to bullshit", we'll go with your preference of term, it is indeed a very good approximation

Clemency and maybe Deimos might would be tone deaf to it, but Norwee is someone I think who would pay attention to the competency of each of his partners and think ahead to what a winning gamestate for his team looks like.

[Isis]

*don't have to have

[Isis]

wtf is 3661 lol

[Isis]

yes you have high charisma, i'm not going to take a krazy game as a counterexample that's kingkong knocking out godzilla

[Isis]

I feel like Looker's phrasing of his point might be weird or whatever but the whole game your attitude towards your own death has seemed very performative and if you're town you should really tone it down next time you play mafia it's not a helpful way to express your alignment

[Isis]

Tbqh it’s looking like Looker then Isis is my lynch order.

Looker if you want to explain why it’s Isis and not you please lmk.

I’m still going to do real work tonight.

Why the heck would you care about input on the order more than input about the final set of game survivors?

[Isis]

Because Elements and HME are my most solid town reads.

Then just don't ask anything I guess? There's no scenario where the order of the next two lynches matters, ever.

[Isis]

Looker can never improve your ability to get it right by explaining a reason to vote me over him >_>

[Isis]

Speaking of
"how do you feel about elements"
I wanna be Deimos 2.0 and ask if this day phase can go until like, at least, next Wednesday, because my resignation takes effect Friday and I'm hoping when I move into a different headspace I'll be able to do some divings that I don't think I could do before this weekend. Maybe I won't want to do anything but watch friends reruns actually and you won't get much I don't know how I'll feel for sure.

But anyway.
I

think

his wagonomics don't fit the way scum!Elements would be in this game but I wanted to re-look at the games I played/modded with him maybe and nail it down even more. If nothing else because his isos are so short, I'd read some context not all.

There's something delightfully transgressive about betting the game on someone like Elements being town so it makes me want to be excited about the VCAs you've done.

[Isis]

"kill" in that thread means "nightkill", it's not a great way of describing things to say that mafia will always try to mislynch the most charismatic player in nightless. The most charismatic player is the hardest to lynch, so while the reward is highest, the risk is highest too, it's a longer process with high exposure.
If a player that is usually charismatic is acting unusually uncharismatic temporarily, scum would definitely want to lynch such a player, and do so quickly, it's kind of a pseudonightkill, I can kind of see where you might be going with that. When Hectic was slightly unpopular for a moment in nightless man did I try to kill him so fast. This looks the worst for people on Ali's lynch imo, ABR does not count as charismatic for this game because he made a very clear break from his meta that showed he wasn't going to ever be charismatic this game. Ali promised to have a dynamic game ahead of em though.

Man I am looking at votecount 4.final and seeing that either I am townreading scum when I townread Elements or votato was a quadscum lynch with only one townie on the wagon. My brain.

[Isis]

Part of my incentive with the Firebringer quicklynch is that if town!Firebringer sees drawing as a reasonable way to play in 3p LyLo and cooperates with scum that expects to be the LyLo's solve then I don't get my win condition.

I don't mind getting mislynched and losing for because of that and would much likely experience that than very frustrating bizarre crap that comes up from the play to a draw stuff.

[Isis]

Part of my incentive with the Firebringer quicklynch is that if town!Firebringer sees drawing as a reasonable way to play in 3p LyLo and cooperates with scum that expects to be the LyLo's solve then I don't get my win condition.

I don't mind getting mislynched and losing for because of that and would much likely experience that than very frustrating bizarre crap that comes up from the play to a draw stuff.

What's the other parts of your incentive?

I thought he was >rand to flip scum after seeming really inconsistent the previous day phase. Not pushing the scum we were lynching and acting sad yes, but bitching about game tempo without bitching about how his hypothetical scumpartner was responsible for game tempo gave me some heebiee jeebies.

[Isis]

Isis can you like, whatever you alignment is, can you teach me how to be a better town? I don't want to be another Looker on this site. What should I be doing right now?

I don't accept the premise that Looker is bad at mafia

[Isis]

Do I have to accept a premise that I'm better than you at town?

[Isis]

I snickered.

Some gamestates are about persuasion and some are about acumen and I have a feeling this one is about acumen. Five players in a nightless is enough that I have a comfortable number of guesses/range even if I'm to be lynched, it's a remarkably different feel from a 5p with night. But I don't think it's obvious who the scum is, the way this game has played out. At least, it's not obvious to me. If you are town, it's more likely than not for you to continue to be townread, and likely so much so you are decidering in 3p, so figuring out the correct answer to that 3p is important.

I think you are too far up your own head on me to have any hope but meaningfully sorting between GC-Looker-Elements is relevant even if you never re-evaluate that.

In this phase of the game it can be really helpful to try to do reads by like, the "end of the monk episode" perspectiving or "end of a danganronpa chapter" perspectiving. Where you kind of say, if X is scum, I know the entire story, what story is being told, how well does it fit? I can't remember the last time I won as town in a similar gamestate since I hammered wgeurts in old newbies, and I remember doing something like that.

[Isis]

You don't necessarily have to reread. Maybe it's a midcareer crisis but I'm kind of wondering how good rereading is and how it impacts confbias. I think maybe it is most important to reread sections that you don't remember all that well and that rereading can maybe be harmful. When you need to review sections based on how different flips impact something, that's something different, for sure.

In my town game I just threw, one thing I was doing on the correct side of my T-charting that I didn't actually vote according to was, "If X is scum, what did they accomplish, does that type of accomplishment make sense?" Sometimes it can control and filter for the tone and manner in how they reached the objectives they reached and instead give you a look at what they actually got. One situation where it can be a big course correct is when a read is fundamentally based on a concern about lamisting, and then you see that the player did not actually get everyone to look-at-how-town-they-are, and then pending that you can come around that that player themselves would have anticipated that unwhelming level of cred you can correct your gut.

I am a bit paranoid about your slot because vanity tunneling me day phase before last

accomplished

a lot of distraction away from Deimos lynch even if the manner and tone of your tunneling generally seems genuine

[Isis]

What do you mean?
Definitely reread if you want to reread, the idea of rereading being harmful is definitely a spicy-probably-too-spicy-to-be-true recent musing.