Micro 945 | CultD3 | Game Over!

[Oromis]

INSTALYNCH THIS NO BRAKES GG VOTE: votato

-Koba

[Oromis]

With my pro pregame scumhunting I must have landed correctly seeing the pivot above. Feels good to be good

[Oromis]

-Koba

[Oromis]

Its sunday and not everyone is on EU time ~~~
-Koba

[Oromis]

"Hey guys look im coming into this game with a town mindset haha please believe me im scumhunting already!!"
-Koba

[Oromis]

Hi everyone! This is the other half of Oromis. Dk and I made this hydra together basically just for fun. I've never played on a hydra account, so it should be an interesting experience. I think Dk will be the main person you guys will be talking to during the game, I'm going to let them do most of the posting and take more of a backseat, but I wanted to at least introduce myself. Both Dk and I started playing forum games on EpicMafia, which has a great but pretty small forum maf community. I'm still relatively inexperienced, but I've had good games as town and as scum--this is the first time I've ever rolled cult leader, though!

What are everyone's favorite foods?

- Joqiza

[Oromis]

My family is Indian, so I like typical indian cuisine--it's what I grew up with. My favorite dish is pretty basic, it's called palak paneer: basically just pureed spinach with cheese. I also like eating SCUM like you for breakfast! VOTE: Mohab500

~joq

[Oromis]

I hate all food. Why take a backseat?

I like the idea of just sort of hanging out in the background, reading over the game and giving my thoughts to Koba. I can have a strong thread presence if needed, but generally they're pretty good at inciting reactions and getting material.

Our avatar is from the book Eragon, it has a dragon rider and their dragon. Think of Koba as the rambunctious young rider and me as the wise, mysterious dragon.

~joq

[Oromis]

It's L-1.

~joq

[Oromis]

VOTE: mohab

Clearly a try hard trying to act townie, dominating the game with nothing but noise.

Plus your avatar is creeping me out.

Oh God no, Epic Mafia? Mohab, you are forgiven.

VOTE: Oromis

going from a semi serious vote(one with concrete reasons) to a flimsy reasoned vote? wa


also mohab latched onto what joqiza had told me... after he did it.. was a purposeful scumslip. There's not much content to go off of but I don't like Mohab's tone so far.
you're saying thats CL vibes when you're interacting with a hydra of which I myself will be actively posting. Seems to me you are just looking for a reason to needlessly shade me. Want to explain further since yours is the most recent and clearly a serious vote?


also we are at L-1, not L-2.

will be busy tonight so joqiza may be participating but tomorrow i'll be back after work.


Also I think the rest of the wagon is pure from first impressions.
-Koba

[Oromis]

In 63, DkKoba was referring to NorwegianboyEE's post here:

Yeah that sounds like cult leader material. "I'll just hang out in the backseat and make no trouble. Don't look my way please ;("
VOTE: Oromis

However, they accidentally got Mohab and Norwegian confused, and thought the above post was Mohab's. Hope that clarifies things.

Maybe to articulate Dk's thoughts here in my own words. When I say I'm going to take a backseat, I'm referring to my own, personal behavior, not the behavior of the slot. This is a hydra account. Your read here makes sense in the sense that DkKoba and I share a single voice: a voice in which I intend to be more reserved, less available, whereas they will be more proactive and direct. In some sense, I am the cult leader to his cult PR/goon: we are an organization within a single slot.

I'm sure it will difficult to evaluate a hydra account, I've never had to before. I simply wanted to let everyone know that I'm here too, as a courtesy. Our intention is to have Dk be the "face" of the account, with me hoping to pop in every now and again to say hi (assuming we're not speedlynched, that is).

Don't we all love being backseat drivers?

~joq

[Oromis]

we townread deimos after some discussion of his recent posts.

mohab having meta of soft gamethrowing gives us anxiety about the slot because we won't be sure if they're going to play towards their win condition, thus not sure how to read them.



I think there is value in a TSE wagon personally, as well as a Norwee one. joqiza agrees more with the norwee one and we're going to switch our vote accordingly.


VOTE: norwegianboyee
-koba

[Oromis]

What I'm looking for in a CL read mostly is for someone who is trying to avoid attention, as soon as they are dead the cult loses power.

So those people lurking in the shadows are my biggest concern. Also I'm on the lookout for players playing very purposefully scummy and lynchbaity as they are candidates for non CL cult who wish to keep attention off the CL.

I hope that is more clear to you Drew.

also I think i forgot to mention but I have a light TR on you from my discussions with joqiza.
-Koba

[Oromis]

I think there is value in a TSE wagon personally, as well as a Norwee one. joqiza agrees more with the norwee one and we're going to switch our vote accordingly.


VOTE: norwegianboyee
-koba

I should explain my reason for our vote.

Yeah that sounds like cult leader material. "I'll just hang out in the backseat and make no trouble. Don't look my way please ;("
VOTE: Oromis

This read felt surface level to me. Your premise, as I understand it, is that I intended and further intend to avoid attention.

- Look at 28. I'll make no claim as to whether joking about rolling cult leader has any bearing on one's alignment or role, but I dispute that the correct interpretation is "Don't look my way please ;("

- Look at 41. Does someone openly announcing their intent to stay in the background seem like someone who is particularly concerned with actually staying in the background, in the context of this social deduction game?

- There are legitimate reasons to suspect our slot, given my first two posts. Let's just say I wasn't surprised to end up on L-1, although it did happen.. a bit quicker than I thought it would.

- In sum, your 51 felt shallow and uncharitable, and was coming from a player who is clearly capable of decent analysis based on 80.

As I write this, I can see that perhaps your comment was based around an expectation of future behavior. Your clarification in 163 is helpful.

~joq

[Oromis]

You understood the refutation they offered, right? The slot itself can't be said to be sitting back when only one head intends to be inactive.

Yeah i got that.

Ok, I've misunderstood you then.

The reason I voted Oromis is that I think it's anti-town for the head that perceives himself less competent to be handing over the reins to the other head and keeping his reads undercover. Hydrae can be confusing but they're also helpful for town when played correctly because you get double the chances to sort the slot. It's ok to be less active, or to largely sheep his fellow head, but I'd prefer that Joq maintain high transparency to enhance the readability of the slot.

joqiza is not sortable early on regardless ~~ I'm mostly bouncing ideas off him and we're sorting slots ourselves. i.e. I'm the ego, he's the analysis.

He's going to be easily dwarfed by my posting habits so I believe that is why he said that

-Koba

[Oromis]

I don't do pedits and we didn't plan to be on at the same time btw LOL
-Koba

[Oromis]

Re-reads take note:

Seems there's some weight to the association
scum!Norwee -> scum!Mohab
and its contrapositive
town!Mohab -> town!Norwee

This is because I don't see that much equity in scum!Norwee making this early effort to interact with town!Mohab and establish them as having a scummy meta, since he'd be harming his own mislynch prospects for the slot. On the other hand, if they're scumpartners, it's very logical to improve Mohab's lynch resistance in this way.

This read, while thoughtful and concise, feels useless. The logic, when split into parts, makes sense, but intuitively, I think about the games I've played, and it doesn't quite seem to line up with reality. I've seen 1) scum defend town in this manner all the time, if they so feel the towncredit they'll gain is worth it, and 2) I actually doubt scum would risk building this sort of association with their partner so early in the game.

Also, just kind of something I'm thinking about, this sort of association/world-building seems kind of fruitless in a setup with conversion roles, where the read may not hold from day to day. Like, I'm disinclined to do this sort of thing before a flip anyway, but in a cult setup it feels particularly meh. This is my first time with a cult in forum mafia though, so won't pretend like I'm an expert.

After some discussion with Koba we decided we do TR this guy, mainly because the progression up to 86 feels natural and we buy it, for now. Also, the straightforwardness of 83 appealed to me, although I couldn't really explain why yet in clear terms.

~joq

-pedit: LOL

[Oromis]

FWIW, my statement that I would "stay in the shadows" has more to do with my personal schedule rather than any sort of deliberate strategy on our part. I usually have a strong thread presence in games I play (regardless of alignment) but my work schedule is keeping my busy for the next couple weeks.

~joq

[Oromis]

VOTE: Votato

sorry but the energy in this game is much different than votato's town games I've played with him in. this is my personal CL read atm based on the awkwardness so far.

we feel a little better about norwee. joqiza can probably elaborate on that(I think he did in his last post).

[Oromis]

VOTE: Votato

sorry but the energy in this game is much different than votato's town games I've played with him in. this is my personal CL read atm based on the awkwardness so far.

we feel a little better about norwee. joqiza can probably elaborate on that(I think he did in his last post).

im truly shocked that you think so. never have you ever deathtunneled me when i was town.

hmm actually, i assume that came from DkK because it talks about multiple games with me, but it also says "he" so that suggests that joq wrote the post.

That was Koba. I don't have a read on you at the moment.

~joq

[Oromis]

...

I know some people frown upon pre-flip associations but as tells I find them so much stronger than normal scumhunting that I've always liked pointing them out as I see 'em (less work to do in later days as well). You're right that in a gamemode like this they will lose applicability situationally, so it's gonna be less helpful.

Sure. If that's your style, and you make it work for you, then I don't have a problem with it. Thanks for explaining further.

We could always just hit scum today so we don't have to worry about whether they were the N1 convert.

We'd only have this problem if we're in the setup with the regular cultist, right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. If we lynch a cult PR, they'll flip as cult PR, right? So there's a chance that we could still know tomorrow if we hit the N1 convert, if we hit a cult goon and we end up in Setup A or B.

I'm probably misinterpreting, but I just can't help but wonder if you slipped that we're in setup C.

~joq

[Oromis]

we feel a little better about norwee. joqiza can probably elaborate on that(I think he did in his last post).

He didn't.

Youre pointing this out because you want people on the record saying why youre town, or because you think their reasons for townreading you are scummy?

I'm pointing this out because they seem to have changed their read on me, but never explained why.

I would not say my read on you has evolved dramatically, but I can give you the progression.

- Your justification for voting me in 51 was questionable.

- In response, we voted you in 88.

- I later outlined the issues I took with your read in 168. I explained that 163 was helpful, and at that time I told Koba I was fine with them pursuing other lines.

- To explain exactly what changed my stance in 163. When I first read 51, I thought to myself something along the lines of, "Seriously? That is what he thinks I'm trying to do here?" I didn't take issue with you voting me, but I found the way you characterized my behavior strange. In 163, you clarify the reason you voted in a way that now is believable. Your explanation in 51 is not a read on me, but rather a read on yourself. You are thinking back to what you did in that previous game, and pattern matching that against what you see here. You were scum in that game, and you acted the way I acted, therefore I am scum in this game. That is not a sufficient reason to lynch someone, but maybe it's a good enough reason to vote someone at the stage of the game in which you voted me.

I would not say I have a strong read on you at the moment. Logically, right now, I think you have chances of flipping town slightly above rand. Emotionally, I'm hesitant to give credit to anyone who I felt was uncharitable towards me.

~joq

[Oromis]

hey i have an idea..
What if we let kaif replacement hammer

[Oromis]

-Koba

[Oromis]

some players that prefer to maintain an impact on the game fight any lynch on them as either alignment. Im more prone to give up as scum getting lynched so i can let my partner carry via my misdirection. Its all meta how someone gets defensive over a lynch (: - Koba

[Oromis]

cult leader machine go brrrrrrrr also before anyone says it we dont need to wait on replacement.

-koba

[Oromis]

cult leader lynch machine ***

[Oromis]

Y'all should scumread me more so I don't get culted.
I s2g if I get culted.

joqiza literally mentioned that you would be good as towncore but it sucks that we wouldn't be able to trust you from D2 onwards, but I had to tell him that we don't have to worry abt that if we just lynch CL today

also porkens gives me town vibes. he seems too innocent to be cult here. I don't understand the push on them, but they seem um.. clueless? no offense obviously but i don't see them as cult here.

- Koba

[Oromis]

.

I'll wait on joqiza to get input on that slot since he's interested too but is busy at work rn ~~ I have a scumlean personally.

-Koba

[Oromis]

ugh didnt mean to butcher the quote but it was about the read on TSE

[Oromis]

is that hammer lmao
-Koba

please flip CL

[Oromis]

VOTE: Porkens
You know what you did.

[Oromis]

OG Cult reads for me(koba)(from most cult to least cult):

Porkens - 1000% chance of flipping cult
Norwee
Drew
Clidd(poe)
mohab
deimos
TSE
oromis

[Oromis]

Why TSE as your numero uno town read?

least likely to be scum with porkens from D1 interactions
-Koba

[Oromis]

a quick reread verifies that you indeed were the hammer
-Koba

[Oromis]

nope that was deliberate especially considering your progression on votato doesnt match up with the vote.

[Oromis]

its not a 1v1 lol. You're just confirmed scum ty

[Oromis]

Thats bullshit

[Oromis]

Since deimos wants to seed doubt about us, im gonna out what we know:
tse is CLEAR of being OG cult(assuming they arent CL who no culted n1) They visited no one

Thats why we softed him as town.

We think that we are actually in the rolestopper. It makes no sense for porkens to visit norwee here as FN. His claim is bullshit and we definitely already have culted PR.
Keep the wagon on porkens.

[Oromis]

nah norwee ur cult m8 nice try

[Oromis]

-koba

[Oromis]

oh and obviously thats a tracker claim^^^

[Oromis]

tse is CLEAR of being OG cult(assuming they arent CL who no culted n1) They visited no one

How do you know that? I thought it was pretty clear you must have tracked Porkens looking at the current state of things, so how do you know TSE did nothing?

Wasting our action on obv scum?
We were looking for cult / other PR

[Oromis]

they are hardclaimed scum bc the progression on their read on votato and intentional hammer before we could do anything. Also its more likely cult got rolestopper here and is claiming FN to be more believable

[Oromis]

it is not a stretch to say cult will do blatant scummy things. They just got lucky this time and were able to find PR n1. Considering its 1/3 odd thats not impossible.

[Oromis]

Stop playing dumb, you know what I mean norwee.

[Oromis]

I mean rolestopper. Go look at column B row 3

[Oromis]

I'm not buying the dumbtell here as long as porkens is hardclaimed scum

[Oromis]

You read the setup enough to see tracker in column A so you know theres the role i stated with tracker in column B. You're pretending to not have seen it to get "townpoints"

[Oromis]

lucky? Its a 1/3 chance
-Koba

[Oromis]

sure bud. Porkens is getting lynched here.

[Oromis]

we had a plan in case we were culted. This is similar to a gambit one would take as cult if they culted a PR. Magically the person who does the scummiest shit on D1 claims PR now? Yeah ok buddy. Nice try. Norwee scum with porkens.

[Oromis]

Micro 945 | CultD3

2D Fractals!

by: quaz0r

spiral texture

Back-up Mod: Datisi

I was gonna set the theme to actual cults, but every cult I found was pretty screwed up so I think fractals sets a lighter tone. Ok thanks i'm GeorgeBailey.

---

1. TrueSoulEnergy
   
2. votato
   
3. Oromis (DkKoba + joqiza)
   
4. Deimos27
   
5. Doctor Drew
   
6. clidd
   Kaif
   
   
7. Mohab500
   
8. Porkens
   
9. NorwegianboyEE

* = Prod

Dead:

Spoiler:

Events

• 
  
• 
  
  

  ---

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=83&t=83261
playerList=TrueSoulEnergy,votato,Oromis{DkKoba+joqiza},Deimos27,Doctor Drew,Kaif,Mohab500,Porkens,NorwegianboyEE{Norwee}
replacementList=Kaif:clidd
moderatorNames=GeorgeBailey
dayStartNumbers=3,375
cleanDay=true
prodTimer=0,36,0,0
deadline=2020-06-17 06:37:58 -4.00
deadList=votato-1
flavor=[/align=center][/thumb=600][/thumb][/i][/url=][/url][/i][/align]
voteOverrides=
color=#8040FF

Spoiler: Vote Counter Settings

Living Players

Links

Day 1: Post #3

...

I know some people frown upon pre-flip associations but as tells I find them so much stronger than normal scumhunting that I've always liked pointing them out as I see 'em (less work to do in later days as well). You're right that in a gamemode like this they will lose applicability situationally, so it's gonna be less helpful.

Sure. If that's your style, and you make it work for you, then I don't have a problem with it. Thanks for explaining further.

We could always just hit scum today so we don't have to worry about whether they were the N1 convert.

We'd only have this problem if we're in the setup with the regular cultist, right? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something. If we lynch a cult PR, they'll flip as cult PR, right? So there's a chance that we could still know tomorrow if we hit the N1 convert, if we hit a cult goon and we end up in Setup A or B.

I'm probably misinterpreting, but I just can't help but wonder if you slipped that we're in setup C.

~joq

Btw we posted this purposeful misdirection to get VT read.
What you got for crumbs porkens?

[Oromis]

oops didnt mean to quote that vote count - Koba

[Oromis]

it wouldn't have been so short if someone didnt purposefully hammer

[Oromis]

sorry I don't listen to scum requests - Koba

[Oromis]

Why did you check TSE anyways? You seemed to have a lot of thoughts on Norwegian or maybe Drew, but TSE is a slot I don't think I recall you interacting with much. If you guys were really searching for scum, shouldn't you have hit someone you thought of more frequently? Is there a specific reason here why you went for TSE as opposed to say, Norwee?

tse was scummiest to us.

[Oromis]

I'll say something a bit dumb, but Porkens wanting to lolhammer/end D1 seems to be a general thing with the play. They also did that in our previous game, and talked about how much they wanted someone to go and lolhammer at the end of D1, or how much they wanted someone to flip. I don't rule them out as scum solely because of that but it's a little more NAI than just 'lolhammer = scum'.

Hey stop defending him before he can make his own case, aight?

[Oromis]

Even if thats the case thats a NAI fact about their meta. Its just a dumb gimmick in that case to cover up ones scumplay. His D2 start+ the shit claim has more solidified the read on him in my eyes -Koba

[Oromis]

you didn't crumb or even remotely have any sort of PR tell bc u are not FN lmao.

[Oromis]

I'll go for norwee. could flip CL but if it doesn't that means 1 less person wins with town.

[Oromis]

-Koba

(also joq said he is free this weekend and will be more active.)

[Oromis]

we're looking for CL so I don't care about TSE

[Oromis]

we're awaiting your big wallpost clidd I'm sure its full of content considering you came back 3 hours ago and have yet to follow up on your post

[Oromis]

-Koba

(also did you just add your location recently deimos?)

[Oromis]

oops wrong account xD Thought I was logged in on oromis

-Koba but that point stands

[Oromis]

we should be aiming for cult leader, not for the new recruit

[Oromis]

ideally I'd rather lynch someone who is town over a non cult leader bc then cult leader cannot taint another slot going into lylo. ofc that means we need to find cult leader tomorrow.
cult leader > town > cult PR > vanilla cult is the lynch preference order. call me crazy but the convert limitation of 3 works into this. (also I'd rather win with town as winning with cult would feel too easy as a PR here)

-koba

[Oromis]

aaaaargh I need to pay attention to where I'm logged into. I wish MS had a feature to only allow specific people to post in a thread like other forum mafia sites do xD

[Oromis]

the jump to rolestopper is bc I believe you to be OG cult thus a FN claim is 100% bs in that case, and the liklier option, from a tracker POV is that there was a rolestopper (:

[Oromis]

-koba

[Oromis]

ok that time it was avoidable LOL i need to unsubscribe off my account............. im sorry georrge

[Oromis]

norwee and deimos thinking quickhammering a wagon isn't scummy or valid enough to get a flash lynch on someone lol.
I'm sorry to say but deimos' sudden interest in shading us for something that isn't scummy to push on is making me believe that they indeed are the convert.

TSE lynch isn't happening. get over yourself.
-Koba

[Oromis]

Clidd, chime in on 663 and 638.
I feel like Drew is basically confscum because of D1 wagon analysis but unless scum is pulling some white flag gambit the speed with which he got to L-1 at the start of today casts some serious doubt on him being the CL.

this post reeks of bullshit

[Oromis]

Otherwise, i suggest you take a step back and look at Oromis and TSE interactions. I think there’s something to consider about that and their weird attack on Porkens just for hammering a wagon.

whats werid about it please DO elaborate
-Koba

[Oromis]

I like it because it’s a post helping town. But i’m not really townreading Orpmis after that tangent with Porkens.

come on norwee!!!
tell the class why this is.
-Koba

[Oromis]

ideally I'd rather lynch someone who is town over a non cult leader bc then cult leader cannot taint another slot going into lylo. ofc that means we need to find cult leader tomorrow.
cult leader > town > cult PR > vanilla cult is the lynch preference order. call me crazy but the convert limitation of 3 works into this. (also I'd rather win with town as winning with cult would feel too easy as a PR here)

-koba

Like this post though.
Cult leader is the top priority today. As if we get a cultist they can just recruit a new dude immediately.

This post is literally IIoA I don't know why you like it. Assuming by "like" you mean tr.

Deimos, IIoA is not a single post, please come back to reality instead of shading us for making a point that most town would not have been able to grasp.

is there any reason you're on the shade wagon for us suddenly?

[Oromis]

Cordial? No. You've angered the beast. There is no cordiality here anymore.
-Koba

[Oromis]

i don't think drew is an original cult. at worst he's converted here.

-Koba

[Oromis]

oh ffs I WAS LOGGED IN -Koba

[Oromis]

ok im so done with this LOL why does this let me posttttttttttttttttttttttt

but deimos do you think mohab's recent vote was town or scum?

[Oromis]

no. give me a solid answer. town, or not town? -koba

[Oromis]

you added on a "but" which is a different way of saying "yeah I COULD flip that read around fairly easily". so they're town right?


now whats the exact reasoning for you reading norwee as scum? since you're here I'd like an answer within 5-10 minutes please

[Oromis]

Cult is Mohab, drew, omoris.

I have spoken

I believe this to be at best a 1/3

[Oromis]

-Koba

[Oromis]

There is something Norwee has done that is blatantly scum that I see you've failed to point out. it's a bit more obvious from our point of view of course but it will be explained in a bit.

[Oromis]

hey porkens. question: what the FUCK did you expect would happen beginning of D2 after what you did D1?

[Oromis]

because you acting mad ignorant like the wagon on you wasn't warranted.

[Oromis]

also I disagree on drew being scummy. -Koba

[Oromis]

This is joqiza.

I want to rewind a bit because I need to get this off my chest and I'm still living in the past a bit. I've had time to chat w/ Koba, but haven't really had time to sit down w/ the game until now.

Let's go back to the Porkens hammer yesterday, if people are willing to.

After I saw votato was hammered, and I read the nature in which Porkens hammered him, I discussed with Koba and we agreed Porkens was most likely scum. There were a few things that struck me:
1. Porkens did not ask for a claim before hammering.
2. Porkens’ progression on votato felt unnatural in the context of how quick he was to hammer.
3. The hammer strategically denied town the ability to further scumhunt for any pre-conversion reads on Day 1.

It was, and remains, difficult for me to construct a town mindset behind Porkens hammering votato in the way he did. Let me be clear that it is not votato's alignment that makes Porkens' hammer scummy. I scumread the nature in which ithe hammer occured. Furthermore, Koba informed me that Porkens is not a novice player. There is no reason to quickhammer yesterday at the moment or in the way that Porkens did. He robbed us of our Day 1 and I find myself getting frustrated thinking back to it. The scumhunting we were doing on that day was important. The reads we were making on that day were valuable, and any read we make today will now be polluted by the element of conversion. It makes far more sense for non CL cult to hammer and out themselves than it does for town to imitate the same. If Porkens is cult, all is forgiven; if he is town, he can go on my dodge list.

When I find myself thinking along the lines of “Jesus Christ, if this guy is town he might the worst town player I’ve ever played with,” the guy in question usually flips scum. In a way I am being charitable here by assuming he is scum. That he engaged in whataboutism at the beginning of Day 2 as his defense does not endear him to me either, although I don't find that AI.

The fact that he has a “meta of quickhammering” is extremely difficult to swallow and I’m somewhat incredulous how easily both Norwegian and Deimos seemed to buy that. A “meta of quickhammering” in an experienced player should have been weeded out long ago via policy lynch. It’s garbage play and the proper response to hearing a meta claim like that is skepticism. I remain skeptical. In the case of town!Porkens this will likely be a case of scum!Norwegian and/or scum!Deimos knowing he’s town because they’re looking at the answer key. It has yet to be established that this is even his meta. Even if it is I may not let that inform my reads because I refuse to in any way encourage that sort of behavior.

Despite what I've said above, Porkens is obviously not the ideal lynch today. Reasons:
1. Porkens is unlikely to be CL
2. Porkens claimed FN, a role which can mechanically clear itself

Despite Porkens being our top scumread during the night, both Koba and I agreed he was unlikely to be CL due to audacity. (If Porkens is CL I respect it.) We decided to track TSE—I didn’t particularly teamread Porkens/TSE, but I felt TSE was independently scummy, mostly due weakly justified “pool reads." He was an important slot to resolve, as his nv brings information to town about a slot that was, as I understand it, widely scumread.

Given the conversion limit of 3, and given the fact that Porken’s quickhammer makes him one of our top non!CL reads, he is not the optimal lynch for today. Koba outlined the logic earlier, but essentially, I would rather hit either 1. CL, or 2. town here.
With the nv on TSE, I’m going to go ahead and discount him as CL. That leaves me looking at 5 slots:
- Deimos
- Norwegian
- Mohab
- Clidd
- Drew
Of the five, I think the three I want to examine the closest are Norwegian, Mohab, and Drew. I think both Deimos and Clidd are potentially cult, but more likely to be converted than CL. I will pressure each of you for alignment tells as best I can, and I hope you will humor me if you are town. There is limited information from Day 1 to work with, and there is the complication that any recruited cultist has the incentive to scumtell here to draw attention away from their cult leader.

~joq

[Oromis]

I want to clarify a theory that Koba’s been playing around with in our chat, because I see that Koba has made some references to it in the thread without (imo) fully explaining it. I actually didn’t really understand this at first, but essentially Koba proposed to me a universe in which Porkens is scum, and a PR is culted, but the culted PR is NOT Friendly Neighbor.

Koba believes that we may be in the setup with a tracker and a rolestopper. The reason they believe this, as I understand it, is because of Norwegian’s 460. This post is notable because in it, Norwegian seems to automatically assume that we tracked Porkens rather than TSE. It is as if he knew we were tracker before we claimed tracker, and as if he assumes here that our push on Porkens to begin the day is because we caught him in a visit.

I’ve been playing around with this theory and I think there might be a bit of meat to it, though I don’t fully buy it. On reread, it does seem like Norwegian potentially associated our push with a tracker push, and being able to make that leap suggests that he may be informed. A cult that knows they have a rolecop and knows they have a converted rolestopper would also know there is a tracker. (Similarly, although Koba didn’t consider this, a cult that knows they have a roleblocker and knows they have a converted jailkeeper would also know that we have a tracker).

The tl;dr of this is that 460 can be viewed as a sort of “slip” in which Norwegian reveals that they were reading us as tracker before we claimed it.

I personally doubt the theory, though I think elements of it, particularly its look at 460, are worth consideration.

Mainly, I doubt that a cult team would have Porkens claim FN instead of the culted PR. A PR claim is still strong even if it’s not FN; the FN claim, by contrast, leaves cult!Porkens with limited flexibility in the coming days.

Secondly, I think that 460 is difficult to strictly interpret. I am not really sure this is a slip of knowledge, as opposed to simple confusion. (Norwegian could clarify this.) I am also not sure that reading us as tracker necessitates him being cult and fully informed, as in a universe with town!Norwegian and town!Porkens, he may have been able to make a tracker read on us based simply on an FN system message.

This is all a lot of verbiage to explain Koba’s read, and to say that I don’t necessarily agree with it. Please note that, even though I don’t necessarily buy the Rolestopper Theory, I still think Norwegian may be scum. I am still stepping through Deimos’s case at the moment. I think if we had decided not tracked TSE, I would have petitioned Koba for either a track on Norwegian or Drew.

~joq

[Oromis]

whatever, maybe its not a load there are some points there. but you hurt my feelings.

I would be lying if I said this was not the intent of my post. Mainly, I wanted to express the exact nature in which I am reading you. As town, my weapon is honesty, even when being honest is cruel.

If you are town we still have the opportunity to find CL today, and then you have the opportunity to clear yourself. After the game, we can go our separate ways.

I'd like to say that I do not want anyone at the table townreading me here simply because of viciousness. A bit of self-meta: I am a dick as either alignment.

~joq

[Oromis]

every town has to be voting correctly today if we vote CL btw.
-Koba

[Oromis]

as of right now, I wanna share how I stand with my reads, on slots I feel are sorted, looking at D1 original cult members mainly:


Oromis: obv PR from our D1 crumb, shouldnt be doubt about us being actual PR
TSE(mechanically unless he pulled a no cult n1 gambit.) Joqiza and i DID discuss that it may have been optimal for a rolecop to not use their power n1 knowing theres 2/3 chances of getting caught by a tracker.
Porkens- after pushing them I feel that they are solidly real here. sorry for the aggressive push but we were really unsure on ur slot but I myself am more confident.
Drew- i maintain drew as town from d1, although it may warrent a reread. I don't feel scumvibes from them. I'm pretty sure they are not original cult here.

slots that are in between:
Norwee. joqiza's counterpoints make me feel that if anything, this slot is the convert.
Mohab: i really dont fucking know how to read this slot still. I want to say they are town but its hard to tell. I would like more solid reads out of them.
scum:
Deimos: seemingly towny attitude d1 but that has devolved over the course of the game. I don't find their tone genuine at all going into d2.
Clidd: has been mostly in the shadows, prime CL material whos trying to dodge a lynch. also same as mohab, would like more solidified reads from this slot that can helps us better PoE scum if it indeed doesnt turn out to be them.

[Oromis]

-Koba

[Oromis]

VOTE: Clidd

[Oromis]

also there's the possibility that no one was culted on n1 to protect CL.... which is a gambit i would have taken on my own. but we can discuss that on d3

[Oromis]

It was Norwee who mentioned that they gamethrew, and since then Mohab has been much more focused......and under the radar.

I might need to sleep on this, again a bit drunky, but I maybe Mohab lynch a go go?

This would also support Norwee as cult.

Pre Edit: If that is a gambit you would do as CL.......why the hard town read on TSE?

Because i find it unlikely anyone else would do so. Its a highly risky gambit

[Oromis]

I really need to stop leaving tabs open with this thread because I keep forgetting. I WILL get the hang of this someday

-Koba

[Oromis]

Oromis, if you believe Porkens is real and I was likely real on D1 at least, do you not believe this makes Drew likely scum? I've asked you this before about the wagon analysis but I don't believe that you responded.

I don't really follow your wagon analysis (I'm not a big believer in wagonomics, generally), but I agree that town!Porkens, town!Deimos, and town!TSE starts to implicate Drew simply through PoE.

Koba has a TR on Drew at the moment, but we haven't discussed this in depth and I don't really agree.

My thoughts on Drew are limited, and are as follows:

- I did not find his defensiveness in reactions to Porkens AI.

- The main thing that I wanted to look at again was 236, specifically his post edit w.r.t. his townreading us. I wondered if his progression on me was natural. For reference, the main post he would be looking at would be 235, in addition to 168, 171, 186, and 221. It is sort of difficult for me to gauge my own towniness in a way--this is one where I'll need others to weigh in. The main question is whether the reversal is natural in the context of my posts or whether the townread came because he was assessing my slot through mafia goggles and felt I was no longer an easy mislynch. On Day 1 I was inclined to believe the former, but I want to revisit it now.

- Day 2 I have not loved Drew so far. 582 is where he reverses on us and positions himself around our fight with Porkens. His read on Mohab there is weakly justified, and his justifications for FOSing Clidd and Deimos equate to "too towny, might be scum." (To be fair, I have my own paranoid considerations of CL!Deimos and CL!Clidd.)

- The end of 582 and 591 are ostensible townslips, but feel less natural than Mohab's. I honestly am not buying townslips from anyone at this stage of the game and they will probably end up a minor factor in my reads.

- 747 is weird in that he claims to have had a gut impulse of "scum theater" in response to the interactions of the two uncc'd PRs, at least one of whom must be town.

- 750 is also odd in that Drew considers us as CL. I understood his position before this to be that we were town on Day 1, but potentially converted. His read on us feels inconsistent here.

~joq

[Oromis]

The reason I bought the Porkens quickhammer easily is that I have been in a few games with quickhammers and it's always been town (pre-LyLo). I can directly reference you to these games if you wish. It was consistent with my mental image of Porkens' playstyle that he would be capable of a similar play.

Link them.

[Oromis]

The reason I bought the Porkens quickhammer easily is that I have been in a few games with quickhammers and it's always been town (pre-LyLo). I can directly reference you to these games if you wish. It was consistent with my mental image of Porkens' playstyle that he would be capable of a similar play.

Also why are you incredulous about Norwee buying it, he claims a FN message from that slot lmao

Hm. Yeah, I didn't consider that. I still find the way this meta claim has been advanced weird.

A thought I'm having is that Norwegian seems to have made a lot of assessments of people based on meta. I'm thinking of his Mohab read and his Porkens read. His early shade on us was justified through a sort of meta read as well. I believe he made a metaread on Koba earlier but I'd have to go find it. Not sure if it's AI.

~joq

[Oromis]

If it's AI at all it's probably scum-indicative to the extent that it supplants direct analysis of the current game.

~joq

[Oromis]

[Oromis] [Deimos27]

[Porkens] [Mohab500] [NorwegianboyEE]

[TrueSoulEnergy] [Doctor Drew]

I need to review Clidd but this is the post that pinged me. It is strange to me that he has us in his top TRs while simultaneously having TSE in his top SRs, given the fact that we have a no-visit on TSE. Either he thinks TSE no-visited as cult, or he is ignoring the mechanical nature in which we clear TSE here. We should be lower, or TSE should be higher. The position is inconsistent.

I remember liking Clidd from Day 1 but need to revisit. Another reason I suspect his slot today is that I think he's a likely convert choice. It's difficult for me to really assess strategy as this is my first cult game, but I believe my main priorities as CL would be the following:

1. cult a PR
2. cult a player with influence over others
3. cult a player I perceive as competent, in order to deny town that asset

The most important factor seems like culting a PR: a culted PR is an immediate and huge blow to town. I think my main PR read from Day 1 was honestly Norweigan, but Clidd could potentially have been seen as PR. I believe both myself and Deimos were serving up VT vibes (ours, intentional; Deimos, mainly through activity/post volume).

I think Clidd would have been perceived as a competent player based on Day 1. I remember his contributions as limited (due to his late entry) but noticeable. Lastly, that he came into the game late is another factor in itself. A CL might've made the assessment that a change in behavior would be less noticeable in his slot. Compared to a slot like Deimos, who as town on Day 1 and converted cult on Day 2, would have to be able to replicate his post volume and general behavior with a different alignment.

[Oromis]

I am going to VOTE: unvote for now, until I have time to discuss further with Koba.

Things to do:
- Review Norwegian and Drew, and decided what our final vote will be. I think CL will be one of those two, at least based on my own reads.
- Review Mohab, to make sure I'm not overlooking something.
- Koba has asked me to take another look at Day 1 Deimos, and I myself feel the need to hash out his statement of us as having converted cult equity before we proceeed.

~joq

[Oromis]

I mentioned this to joqiza, but we should be careful about running up someone to L-1 as if they are non CL cult they will likely just self hammer as they retain their numbers (and gain another scum).
has anyone been at L-1 yet btw? - serious question.

also I would like Norwee to give concise answers on:
clidd. is their fallen off behavior from d1 scum to you? what is your read on them? do you find them town or scum? (no null. I want a solid read.)
why are you still voting TSE after we cleared him of CL?
Do you thnk we are converted tracker?

Do you think mohab is town today? Their behavior has also changed between d1 and d2.

What do you think about Porkens quickhammering, is it town or not? Do you think he's potential CL/cult PR? I myself have concluded he is town, but he's still scummy to me
How do you read us? Do you believe our tracker claim? Why?

I'd like answers to all those questions ^ others may answer as well but this is mainly directed towards norwee. I ask no one spoonfeed any analysis for him so we can get a genuine response.

VOTE: Norwee L-2
no one else vote else if they are non cult leader they are liable to self hammer.

-koba

[Oromis]

norwee I want YOUR insight -Koba

[Oromis]

What do you think about Porkens quickhammering, is it town or not? Do you think he's potential CL/cult PR?

I already told he sent me FN message. He can’t be cult leader.

that part was a test and you passed

[Oromis]

but the other stuff is important, namely Mohab + Clidd questions

[Oromis]

we're past that. you havent really made much meaningful analysis today and I'm asking you to make some.

[Oromis]

hey Deimos, we have a gamesolve you might be interested in. I'm going to out it but I want norwee to finish interacting with me first. -Koba

[Oromis]

disappointing but expected.

[Oromis]

alright since norwee gave all they were probably going to give, here's my solve as of now:

Drew: Cult Leader
Norwee: Cult PR
Clidd: Converted Town

[Oromis]

mostly gathered through PoE by finding town. Mohab can be swapped for Clidd for convert, Mohab is in joqiza's PoE scumpool.

[Oromis]

UNVOTE:
Ok that's a bit too fast. I still suspect the slot, but wow.

[Oromis]

such bus. such wow

[Oromis]

VOTE: unvote

[Oromis]

alright since norwee gave all they were probably going to give, here's my solve as of now:

Drew: Cult Leader
Norwee: Cult PR
Clidd: Converted Town

Yayyyy it's the same as my curret solve! Except I had Norwee as CL and Drew as Cult PR.
Walk me through that dynamic?

Norwee is playing more "suicidal" right now in a lynchbaity sense. So I do not think they are the CL here.

[Oromis]

also all unsigned posts are Koba, I post so much I forget to sign LOL

[Oromis]

VOTE: Drew

[Oromis]

That's L-3. And hopefully soon L-2

[Oromis]

CL lynch machine go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Oromis]

how long did that last for?

[Oromis]

we're awaiting your big wallpost clidd I'm sure its full of content considering you came back 3 hours ago and have yet to follow up on your post

^Awful post.

[Oromis]

must...resist...AtE....
-koba

[Oromis]

how about instead of AtEing us you give us something concrete to work with?

Where is your understanding of the game state? How do you read the wagon on you?

[Oromis]

TSE stop splitting the towncore wagon. We need ALL town on the wagon to lynch CL today.

[Oromis]

also Porkens, we need to talk about night actions. you go on random, that isnt us or norwee.


we WILL be tracking you.

and we will out who you FN'd at daystart. In fact I make a promise to be there at daystart to insta out our report so theres no doubt about a theoretical situation where we were cult and our cult partner was the FN target and told us.

[Oromis]

Listen, everything I said in my rant post from D1 is true. I didn't start the game as cult and I haven't been converted.

But, and has been mentioned, killing a VT isn't really terrible and you guys would know going in to tomorrow that at the very least there are no new cultists.

So feel free to run the train on me.

Personally, I am okay with lynching Drew based on this post. I don't think this is cult PR or cult goon. This feels like either CL WIFOM or this is just a VT.

In the event of a townflip or CL flip, I think we can do a neat thing with night actions. Consider the following. Porkens WIFOM visits between townreads (not us). So maybe visit Deimos, maybe visit TSE, idk. Don't tell us or indicate who you're gonna visit, except you don't want to visit cult. We track you. Tomorrow, if someone receives a FN message, don't out it immediately--wait for us to out our tracker report FIRST. This won't clear our slot mechanically, but it should solidify our claim, or at least establish some sort of cc. Let me know if anyone has any objection to the plan.

It becomes less meaningful in the event of a non-CL cult lynch, other than it shows we were not culted today.

Post edit: Koba beat me to it, but that's the plan I just discussed with them.

~joq

[Oromis]

My main two issues with the solve rn:
- If Clidd is the convert to Drew's CL, then Clidd put his CL in his top scumreads next to TSE.
- Norwegian would have had to defend town!Mohab on day 1. I can see CL!Norwegian doing this for towncredit, but it's less likely from the expendable member. Maybe the rolecop is not seen as expendable on Day 1. I'm not sure.

I sleep on it.

~joq

[Oromis]

>.>

[Oromis]

No. Why are you so desperate to switch, TSE?
-Koba.

[Oromis]

uneasy isnt a reason.
give us why.

[Oromis]

And what about it? Is it town? Why? I find AtE NAI.

[Oromis]

And what about it? Is it town? Why? I find AtE NAI.

[Oromis]

We still have 6 days left so there's no need for a CFD on anyone. Let's just do our best to find CL and if we can't it is what it is.

This setup strikes me as sort of swingy and, at this gamestate, pretty much cult-sided. Like Deimos said, we have to find the CL in the presence of two cultists who have every incentive to play as jesters. If we lynch non-CL cult we gain almost nothing, as it'll end up being 3v4 tomorrow anyway, and town will actually lose out in the fact that another slot gets polluted. Even if we lynch two cults back to back from here, we still lose because it'll be 3v3. The only real option for town is to try to identify a sort of top 2 CL pool and execute that and basically pray it hits. It would help if we didn't have an abbreviated Day 1, but as it is we basically have no clean material to work with.

Worth noting that if all agents were playing rationally we really only have 1 shot to hit CL, not two, because if it's 3v4 tomorrow, one town just allies with cult to lynch a non-CL cult, making it 2v4, in exchange for the conversion, making it 3v3. The fact that town is already so boned at this point means Koba and I are never going to do this, because it's just a cheap win, I'm just pointing out how absolutely fucked we are. It's somewhat absurd that cult has a way to win there by blitzing on one of their OWN members if a single town votes wrong. We have the same about of MLs in a regular game, except you can't just hit mafia, you have to specifically hit ONE member or it's worthless, and every time you mislynch you have to re-evaluate every slot.

Anyway, my point is, town is probably fucked no matter what you do. Go back, read, decide who you think is most likely to be CL, out some kind of order in the thread, don't worry about hitting VT because it's honestly better than hitting a non-CL cult, and if the chance arises hope that the CL takes pity on your soul and converts you.

~joq

[Oromis]

Like, you should not be reading for town/scum at this point. It's secondary. The only important metric is the extent to which someone is likely to flip CL. If you have a CL/VT read you always lynch that here over the person you think is more likely to just flip scum.

~joq

[Oromis]

Deimos and I are towncore and its just embarrassing that town wants to go against what we are pushing for.
-Koba

[Oromis]

norwee u are scum. ur opinion doesn't count

[Oromis]

But being town doesn't absolve you of having bad/wrong reads, or make your wagons always the right choice, so no, this argument makes no sense.

either you trust our tracker claim and us not being culted or u dont. there's clear crumbing of us purposefully "VT slipping" on d1 and all town needs to be on a wagon today to lynch CL because its 3 v 5 and it takes 5 to lynch.

[Oromis]

strong words for someone whos in everyone who we read as town's PoE. -Koba

[Oromis]

Fighting against the obvious tracker claim is a hot take and you're just open scumming. -Koba

[Oromis]

is that scum behavior? - Koba

[Oromis]

Ok. You gonna elaborate? Or just throw pointless shade?

[Oromis]

Ok obvscum.

[Oromis]

ok. clidd is not happening. nice try!

[Oromis]

you have yet to provide a case on Clidd!

[Oromis]

"if you really are town"
are you telling me you don't have a solid read on us rn?
-Koba

[Oromis]

Part of me just wants to turbolynch Drew -> Norwee and if neither of them flips CL it's a deserved loss (and maybe I at least get converted out of pity).

Then the rational part of my brain steps in and tells me that every day phase needs to be milked for maximum content and analysis.

So alas I sit here and suffer from endless WIFOM speculation.

overthinking bc of others slanking is exactly why slanking works often lol.

I'm thoroughly frustrated that people won't consolidate on drew though. the resistance to his lynch is really annoying.

[Oromis]

norwee is flipping scum but why do u want to flip non CL scum

[Oromis]

I was on a solo Norwee vanity wagon for so long, and now when I finally return to Drew everybody else wants Norwee/clidd.

What is life

was that on d1? bc d1 a norwee wagon woulda worked.

[Oromis]

clidd wagon has 2 scum on it. porkens you better reconsider. - Koba

[Oromis]

Rationally speaking, we must discard my lynch today. We can agree that I am unlikely to be CL, and the collective goal regardless of who scumreads me or not is to hit CL.

What makes you you unlikely to be CL?

~joq

[Oromis]

I think Clidd might actually have a higher chance of being CL than convert at this point.
VOTE: Clidd

Koba does not agree with me on this one, at least not yet. And maybe I'm just getting WIFOM'ed out. But I feel like we might be truthing here. We have two likely cult members, both voting Clidd atm, either getting lynched today. Couldn't this be distancing?

The above post is weird, because here Norwegian is referencing the current solve, and specifically 788, where we have agreed Clidd is a likely convert, but are arguing over whether Norwegian or Drew are more likely to flip CL. So he's working within this solve, but not disputing the fact that he is a member inside it. Makes me feel like he knows, specifically, he is caught, and is trying to obfuscate which player is CL, whether that is himself or someone else.

And I am also remembering this post:

[Oromis] [Deimos27]

[Porkens] [Mohab500] [NorwegianboyEE]

[TrueSoulEnergy] [Doctor Drew]

Wouldn't CL!Clidd try to tie himself to town!Deimos and myself, as the two people who arguably will have the most influence over the final lynch today?

@Clidd I need to review you. I'm just considering a universe in which you are CL. I'm not sure whether it holds water yet, but I'm considering it, and I don't think it can be discounted.

~joq

[Oromis]

Thread presence is a factor of my reads, but no. Mostly it is PoE.

I have a view of why you are cult. Once I narrow down the pool, I am looking for CL within the possible teams. I usually don't like doing these sorts of pre-flip association reads, but we are forced to by the situation.

Who is your CL read(s)?

Something I'm reminded of. The fact that Norway and Drew are both pushing CL!Clidd, while also claiming they read my slot as tracker, is doubly odd. Because if I am cult, culted tracker or otherwise, the obvious choice for CL is TSE. But somehow this possibility has occured to neither of them. They are both just pushing clidd.

~joq

[Oromis]

It is circumstantial the connection you suggested between my reads on post 561 and your insinuation that I would be strategically townreading you and Deimos. I am willing to help solve the game because I am still town, and I just suggested that regardless of whether or not you have a scumread on me, it is more likely/logically for you to consider me as a possible conversion than a scum-base.

That's fine. We have 6 days, so there's no rush. But yeah, I'd like to know your thoughts.

~joq

[Oromis]

Then I apologize for slandering you.

~joq

[Oromis]

cidd any reason you think obvscum norwee is gunning for you?

[Oromis]

Sorry, meant to post that on Oromis ^^^

[Oromis]

Porkens who is original Tracker if we are CL?

[Oromis]

My fucking whole reaction to you daystart is literally predicated on us being fucking PR and you want to pretend like we are fake. ur case sucks. try something else.
-Koba

[Oromis]

like we literally talked about how we thought u were scum bc it was really rolestopper bc it was from a tracker POV we were convinced u were fakeclaiming and now u wanna be dishonest about our genuine PR telling daystart??

and yeah like joqiza said we didnt want to play to scum condition, we wanted to win with town because its a challenge. if I were on scum team we would have had scum fake guilty someone and keep us out of it so that we could just go into 7 way with 3 scum with the highest likliehood. so no. your theory of us being cult leader sucks ass and you need to look elsewhere.

[Oromis]

I gave the game a once-over, and my current solve remains: {Norway / Drew} as starting scum, with {Clidd} as the most likely convert. I still think both Norwegian and Drew pushing Clidd today is odd, but I think it's just as likely that they are distancing their convert here as distancing their CL. And I townlean Clidd's Day 1. I do not have a strong read between Norwegian and Drew as CL to Cult PR, to be honest. I think it could be either.

Much that needs to be said has already been said, mostly by Deimos. I will include a few relevant posts I found during my rr, as well as an explanation for my Poe (townreads/townleans).

The first post I found which is worth mentioning is Norway's 159. I missed this, somehow, but this is a scummy reads list in retrospect. "TSE is TSE." "Votato is weird idk." Maybe mine this one for teamreads, I couldn't get anything conclusive on that front.

The other post worth mentioning is Clidd's 363. I think Clidd has a series of decent posts on Day 1: nothing that couldn't come from scum, but what he had felt decent, and this post is interesting in that I believe he's the first to suggest the possibility of a Norway/Drew team. Another possible reason for them to convert him: he was stumbling closer to the truth.

Norway voting Drew today, but also trying to push the wagon off them (specifically, while talking to Deimos): 430, 438, 650. My main takeaway was how difficult it was to read Norway/Deimos as a team here: there is a layer of abstraction needed to view their interactions as theater. And, of course, it contributes to the current teamread.

My read list:
Townread: TSE (mechanical), Deimos
Null/light-townlean: Porkens (mechanical), Mohab
Null/light-scumlean: Clidd (d2)
Scumread: Norway, Drew

The read on TSE is simple enough. In order for him to be original cult from our POV, he is either CL who no-culted, or cult PR who no-visited. The latter is less unlikely, but still--it would surprise me if this ends up being the case. There is a chance he was town but culted, but I consider it unlikely given his lack of towncredit garnered on Day 1.

Deimos has towntold on both days. It would not shatter my universe if he were to flip convert or even original scum. I do not TR him with my soul like I have with other players in previous games. But given the relative towniness of the table, scum!Deimos is playing at a level where he will not be caught. My main reservations are that I felt some of his logic day 1 was pretty, but flimsy, when held up to the light, and day 2 I found his push on us odd. To be clear, I think we did have converted cult equity when we were TRing TSE without explanation. But once we outed as tracker, that read no longer makes sense. Deimos has a couple of posts after that, particularly 522, which I find odd. "this level of certainty is so weird compared to the previously calculated nature of Oromis," at this point in Day 2, I had not posted yet. The "calculated nature" I believe to be clearly referring to me--when was Koba ever calculated on Day 1? The statement is odd, of course the tone was different, a different head of the hydra was leading. I'd also have expected Deimos to be able to follow, or at least consider, the logic I outlined in 788 without me having to state it.

To be clear, I think there are acceptable reasons to believe we were culted at that time:
- "I think Oromis was culted, because of their weird TR on TSE" would have been acceptable, before we outed as tracker
- "I think Oromis was culted, because I expected one of us to be culted, but I was not culted" would have been acceptable, and this is probably what town!Deimos was thinking, but my issue is that he phrased it as if he expect

ed

us to be culted rather than him, specifically, as if he were waiting at night, thinking to himself, "Yeah, I bet Oromis gets culted here."
- even, "I think Oromis might be culted, because joqiza hasn't posted yet" would be somewhat acceptable.

This is all a lot of nitpicking to say that I still townread Deimos, mainly because he has contributed actively to a solve, many of his analytical posts further into the game hold up really, really, well, and he's had the right emotional reactions at the appropriate moments. I can't speak for Koba, but I'm personally fine with staking the game on Deimos being town at this moment. I just probably wouldn't stake money, or pride.

I have made my position clear on Porkens in previous posts. I think the FN claim is quite strong mechanically, because it will help us establish universes tomorrow.

I reviewed Mohab. I remembered that 89 pinged me way back when, because the "maybe I'll try" thing felt like it might be scum trying to cover up their scumgame. Ultimately, I do find Mohab's town somewhat genuine on both days. His townslips are decent, and more importantly, he has good reactions in the appropriate places. I particularly liked 512. I think both the tone and the read itself are town-indicative.

Those are the reasons why Clidd, Norway, Drew are established as my own PoE pool. I do not particularly SR clidd today, and like I said, his day 1 is decent. So I'm open for conversation. But he does slot nicely into the Drew, Norway teamread as a convert here.

~joq

[Oromis]

porkens when ppl in this thread are saying that ur accuracy sucks maybe sit back and realize that towncore has it figured out better than u and let us bring you to victory by being a good lad and voting with town.

[Oromis]

if clidd is "converted tracker" who is the cult PR porkens?

[Oromis]

at least who do you have by PoE? if not a solid read

[Oromis]

There was no "trigger." I was going through the game / making this post anyway. I am ignoring Porkens as he is either scum or irrational town.

~joq

[Oromis]

(unsigned posts are koba)
-koba

[Oromis]

Is the explosion of activity after Porken's theory a coincidence ?

I think we both have been active for most of today. That you're portraying it like this makes me more certain of your alignment, tbh.

~joq

[Oromis]

Is the explosion of activity after Porken's theory a coincidence ?

mine? no. I shut down any shitpushes as soon as I see them pop up. not my MO to let people make dumbass theories and let wagons come out of them.

the fact that not only are we cultread here... but CULT LEADER read is a joke.

porkens looks to no longer be plaiyng towards a town condition the way they are playing / openscumming potentially if they want to push such a terrible theory of us being CL.
Pretending like us as CL wouldn't cult deimos.

pretending like us as CL would be the ones to claim tracker.

pretending like us as CL would make any sort of dumb role "slip" play on d1 and point it out as intentional on d2.

its a terrible theory and it deserves to be called out as bad.

joqiza's activity is because they were going to be active anyways.

The reason we are so adamant about it is bc we need all 5 votes from town to lynch correctly today.
-Koba

[Oromis]

because porkens is a bad town player and it infuriates us when someone plays like they are. quickhammering on d1, going against towncore out of ego, joqiza said as much to me that they had some not so nice things typed up they held back on because they were mad at it too and left it to me to deal with it.
Porkens I'm going to continue to poke holes in your terrible theory until you give it up btw. because even though we dont like it, we still need your vote to lynch correctly.

[Oromis]

had porkens not claimed uncc'd PR this game they were going to be discounted as scum for the rest of the game.

[Oromis]

ok porkens. what have we done that is scum?

please point it out.

what about our case is false?

[Oromis]

I know that logically we will reach a point where you must accept we are town so either you can do this the easy way and not waste our time on this or you can do it the hard way and hit your head against the wall.

[Oromis]

I thought it was you from PoE but I feel TSE fits the bill better from their actions.

not that I trust you still but there's no way you are CL here imo

[Oromis]

Porkens u literally sound like a conspiracy theorist malding when someone points out the logical inconsistencies in their theory. If you have a case? Present it. We will defend ourselves. Your refusal to engage with my requests/questions show that you don't really belive we are scum, or if you do its a terrible tunnel that is based on either ego and/or anger.

[Oromis]

[Oromis]

This is how cult leader operates^^ anyone who wakes up to the plot is labeled a “conspiracy theorist” and discredited/ humiliated. Make no mistake I have no ego in this I’m righteous and pure and acting for the town best interest.

this literally reminds of times I argue with anti vaxxers LMAO
-Koba

[Oromis]

I already gave you the promise that I would out the report tomorrow AT THE TIME of flip to prove I'm not CL and you still want to think that "oh this is CL" like deadass get out of here.

[Oromis]

also you still haven't answered the question: whos other OG cult? I.e. our supposed cult PR?

[Oromis]

Porkens, although the case is possible, is still weak argumentatively. It is more beneficial if we work with the lynch pool {Drew/Nowergian} today, from a logical point of view. In a flip town scenario, we can return to that theory tomorrow.

the theory will be proven impossible tomorrow. So its a moot point.

[Oromis]

Your case conveniently clears you and the other members of your “towncore”. That’s just a little too convenient. Sure you have explanations up and down but we will see how the other players feel about it. Let them decide I’ll bow to the majority.

YES THAT IS WHAT A TOWNCORE IS. WE LITERALLY PUT YOU IN IT TOO AND YOU ARE BEING OBTUSE ABOUT IT!! -Koba

[Oromis]

porkens when the obvscum is siding with you you should know its time to give it up

[Oromis]

Deimos so i have thought about it and we have the ability to override porkens and not need him. Unfortunately this means we have to wait till deadline.

[Oromis]

We get 4 town on a wagon and we just have the majority wagon at deadline that was first meaning that they cannot override it

[Oromis]

this was something I discussed with joqiza but I think i need to out this now so we can work with the assumption we can ignore 1 town being a shitter

[Oromis]

I'd also like to point out the notable slank coming from drew now

[Oromis]

This is how cult leader operates^^ anyone who wakes up to the plot is labeled a “conspiracy theorist” and discredited/ humiliated. Make no mistake I have no ego in this I’m righteous and pure and acting for the town best interest.

VOTE: oromis nah fucknit see you in six days or whatever. After all, you don’t need me.

[Oromis]

Porkens did you read my 991?

[Oromis]

This is joq.

[Oromis]

Porkens, norwee, Mohab, clidd this is the bulwark. this is the bloc, unassailable and untouchable. We need 0nly find our last brethren to break the wrist of those who would steer our destiny.

Can you elaborate on why you think deimos is scum?

[Oromis]

If none of this gets through to you, consider the following: we are a role which can mechanically track you. If you believe we are CL, you have the opportunity to WIFOM us out, because we can track YOU tonight, and out the report as I mentioned earlier. If you catch us with a wrong report, you've confirmed us FYPOV. In the situation that we hit non-CL cult, I'd rather track for CL, but we can track you in this way if you are really suspicious enough.

Porkens, this is the part I most want you to look at again.

I already find the way you are advancing your theory strange, because you are only arguing why me being CL is a technical possibility, instead of why it is more LIKELY than other universes. It would be one thing if you were saying "This theory is the most likely because X" or "I have eliminated theories X, Y, and Z, and this is all that remains." Those would be acceptable. But instead you're doubling down on a theory which should be well above and beyond Occam's Razor., without further explanation of why This Solve is more likely than other Solves. It is difficult to TR you here, despite the strength of your claim. And I don't know how to reason you out of your theory, because I can't understand the logic by which you arrived at it.

But let's ignore all that for now. The fact is, it should be mechanically optimal FYPOV to not vote us today, even if you place confidence in your theory. Because what will happen tomorrow FYPOV? There should be two universes you are considering:

1. We out an incorrect report, and you will have us as a direct cc, meaning your theory will be directly confirmed. True, the gamestate will be worse in this case, in that there will be one less town, but ultimately, what would be the difference between this battle today or tomorrow? The difference will be that you'd have us as confirmed not!tracker, and you are likely more clear tomorrow by virtue of your second visit.

2. We out a correct report, meaning either your theory is wrong, or the person you visited is also cult, OR we just big-brain guessed who you visited.

In terms of universe building, if you have even a shred of doubt that we are CL it is suboptimal for us to be lynched today, based on this logic. Hint hint, if you are town, #2 will happen.

So the fact that you are pushing this theory with no justification, against what should be the mechanically optimal play fypov, is really bad. I think if you are not scum here, this is sort of gamethrow account levels tbqh. It's one thing to have bad reads, I understand that, but lynching the uncc'd tracker claim on an ML in a situation like this is really, really bad play.

~joq

[Oromis]

I'm so terrible at making sure im logged in on the right account zz

[Oromis]

U are sorting slots based on "is this person nice to me" not "is this person scummy"

[Oromis]

what is your read on drew, Porkens?

[Oromis]

because the reason we are upset with you is bc you seem to be adjusting your reads just to fit your theory rather than reading to adjust your theory, because you have only used your theory of us being scum and citing something that is especially indicative of my townplay(optimal play, being strategic, etc. I don't like to use wifom unless I need it to manipulate mafia to adjust their nightkill and look "scummy" but this isn't even a regular mafia game)

since this is clearly a pattern in your games, like i said, the common denominator is YOU because this is not something I myself experience and I am fully capable of townreading someone unfairly pushing on me(see Newbie 2007 which just recently finished where Votato was shitpushing on me but I still locktown read him because I can think objectively!) - Koba

[Oromis]

And do you not think a CL would lay low during a shitstorm to avoid attention??

[Oromis]

while I'm much more wavery on CL!drew read after discussing with joq (he thinks norwee is still a prime candidate), While there's nothing specific we pin down on Drew, there's PoE based on us reading the slots around him. Had we not tracked TSE, he would have been our top CL read.

[Oromis]

Out of sheer curiosity. It seems like you outed your theory, and to you, our reaction confirms that we are cult. For contrast, how would you envisioning town!Oromis reacting?

~joq

[Oromis]

If Mohab is playing the best game of her life as CL, for instance, then we probably lose.

Tbh. This post has been bugging me a bit. Because I TR mohab too, but not quite to this extent, and I probably wouldn't express it this way. And I look back through your ISO, and the progression seems a bit sudden.

~joq