Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[cerebus3]

vote: farside

Random phase wagon go go go!

[cerebus3]

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull

False dilemma. Adel knowing about the tell and Adel being scum are not exclusive scenarios.

It also flies in the face of him saying that he knows what the scum tell is.

unvote, vote :Crazy

[cerebus3]

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull

False dilemma. Adel knowing about the tell and Adel being scum are not exclusive scenarios.

It also flies in the face of him saying that he knows what the scum tell is.

unvote, vote :Crazy

It is possible that someone can be town and not know about it.
It is not possible that someone can be scum and still know about it.

This is not a false dilemma. If Adel is scum, then she's pulling a really weird bluff.

uhhh.. that was the point crazy. You said the whole scum tell thing is bull if she is scum, which implies that you are judging the whole merit of the scum tell based on Adel's alignment and not on the actual scum tell itself, which does not follow you saying that you know what the scum tell is.

[cerebus3]

EBWOP: Never mind, I misread your post.

unvote

[cerebus3]

RR, that's not how a townie thinks

Serious though, I'm not too sold on Iceman, he did basically the exact same thing in the smalltown game and he turned up town. I still like my farside vote.

true story.

[cerebus3]

IcemanE is fitting with my townie read on him I have at the moment. Still tentative though.

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even

is

one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

vote: crazy

[cerebus3]

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even is one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

That is incredibly not true.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

This post is crap. Those two paragraphs couldn't conflict with each other more. Wouldn't you think maybe I'm thinking of the same thing you mentioned in YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH? And you're still voting me?

How can town think of that and not scum again?

[cerebus3]

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

[cerebus3]

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Hmm, good point. Either way Iceman is probably scum, though, for voting me

while

saying he *might* see this scum-tell.

Right?

No.

[cerebus3]

Crazy is so full of shit right now I fear for the next toilet that he encounters.

[cerebus3]

(How many PMs from the mod do you have in your inbox?)

Don't answer that now.

*headdesk*

[cerebus3]

@farside: Did crazy tell you what his scum tell was?

[cerebus3]

Aww crap, I don't want to get lynched because that means that farside has to die, too, and that's not really fair to her.

And I don't want to get replaced, because then if the town wins then I don't win with them.

So the only option is thus to mega-lurk and post one-liners every 2 days.

See ya.

This is not what a member of the town says when they think they're going to be lynched. Especially not when they're still 4 votes away from said lynch

QFT

[cerebus3]

This is polygamist mafia

[cerebus3]

This is polygamist mafia

Er..

not

polygamist mafia

[cerebus3]

thanks charter.

@ icemanE, cerebus3, OpposedForce,

charter

, & Cephrir

why are/aren't you still voting for Crazy?

icemanE, cerebus3, OpposedForce & Cephrir?

Gah, I keep going back and forth on this.

His scum-tell was a flop, but scum-crazy would have really had to pull that out of the nowhere don't you think?

That really depends on whether he saw the notice at the beginning of adding daytalking. If he didn't see it, I just don't know where scum-crazy would even come up with such an idea. It is possible that he saw Adel hint at a scum-tell and came up with this as scum, I guess.

If he did see it, then it becomes a question of whether scum crazy would actually come up with a scum tell that he knew would not work. The fact that he deliberated with farside about the scum tell means that maybe they could come up with it together.

As town, both he AND farside would have to have missed the notice that daytalking was added for everyone late though...

If crazy didn't know about that post, then scum-crazy would have to come up with that out of thin air, and if he did know about the post, then he would have come up with a plan to suggest a crappy scum-tell that he knew would not work in order to confuse people, which his posts do not seem that thought out.

I am confused, but it looks like it points at town crazy.... Am I over thinking this?

Take away the whole scum tell shenanigans, and crazy seems really scummy to me though, Voting for yourself is anti-town, and when confronted with a wagon, what does he do? He declares that he shall lurk on purpose.

Gah....

How many votes are on crazy right now?

[cerebus3]

unvote; vote: firestarter

First, I don't see how RR has done much different than I've done, or others. Clearly, Crazy has acted scummy. Logically, however, it doesn't add up for Crazy to be scum, all things considered (see my last posts for reasons). So why, then, would it be scummy to acknowledge somebody's scumminess but not vote them because the argument for them being town is much stronger? (whew)

Additionally, you're attacking RR for defending somebody who you believe is town when, looking at the votecount, it clearly wasn't popular to do so.

And, the quoting of Adel's call for other bandwagons while saying you're not trying to make a case... I'm also wondering what the point of your vote is, as you're sending very mixed messages.

I think me and neko are on the same wavelength. I was gonna say that!

unvote, vote: firestarter

Continuing to push a wagon when the wagon is proven false is pretty weird.

[cerebus3]

I see where IcemanE is coming from. I mean, what started the firestarter wagon?

[cerebus3]

I have this warm in fuzzy feeling inside being in someone's sig.

[cerebus3]

Sorry, I haven't posted recently. My schedule has been pretty hectic lately. (school + homework + work = one tired aardvark)

I should be able to get something up by tomorrow or saturday at the latest.

[cerebus3]

I read through, but I don't really have much to say.

I think the firestarter/IcemanE lynch is the right move.

Darla putting IcemanE at L-1 while conversation is still going strong is noted.

I see what erratus is saying about Alabaska.

Anything else I forgot about that people want me to comment on?

[cerebus3]

@689: Oh noes, someone had a similar stance as scum, he must be scum as well! What about the other 10 people on the crazy wagon?

He agrees with ice and expresses doubt of the Fire wagon, yet doesn't move his vote.

How does that come across as me doubting the Fire wagon? I was supporting what IcemanE said, not doubting the fire wagon. I was saying that what IcemanE had pointed out was similar to what started the fire wagon, so I didn't think it was completely baseless.

Also, for the record, do you think I am IcemanE's scum buddy or on the other scum team? Because your pointing out my similar stance as IcemanE wants to say I am his buddy, but that doesn't fit with me "doubting the fire wagon" yet keeping my vote there, which would indicate me being on the other scum team. You can't have it both ways.

[cerebus3]

You're asking what started the fire wagon when you were on it. Does that make a lot of sense? It looks your vote on Fire at first was a distancing attempt and your quote above was an out to allow yourself to backtrack.

uhhhhh.... no. That statement was supposed to make people go, hey, that reasoning is similar to why we think firestarter is scum, so maybe there is something there. If anything I was supporting the firestarter wagon. (The question was rhetorical in other words, not literal.)

Is guilt by association all you have?.

[cerebus3]

You're asking what started the fire wagon when you were on it. Does that make a lot of sense? It looks your vote on Fire at first was a distancing attempt and your quote above was an out to allow yourself to backtrack.

uhhhhh.... no. That statement was supposed to make people go, hey, that reasoning is similar to why we think firestarter is scum, so maybe there is something there. If anything I was supporting the firestarter wagon. (The question was rhetorical in other words, not literal.)

Is guilt by association all you have?.

What/who are you referring to by 'there'?

I'm going by what I see. Are you saying we shouldn't be trying to look for connections?

Maybe I would be more sympathetic if you had actually read what I was talking about panda. You clearly have no idea what was going on when I made that post, yet you call it scummy. did you even read page 17? I suggest you do, and stop blatantly ignoring context.

Dybek had just dropped a vote on SSF in a similar fashion that Firestarter did, and IcemanE called him out on it.

[cerebus3]

@panda: It was the thing that was getting the most attention at the time (to me anyway), so I didn't feel like it was necessary to quote anything, but whatever.

Now that you know what I was talking about, why are you still voting me?

[cerebus3]

Oh, and because I didn't say anything earlier, I am ambivalent towards a mass claim.

[cerebus3]

Me and harvey are just friends! it... it is a purely platonic relationship!

...

Oh, who am I kidding, Harvey is the love of my life!

I can't believe I admitted it out loud...

@Cerebus and Harvey, so I'm guessing you two are lovers. Can either of you explain why Harvey voted Fire then said he had no idea what he was doing and turned around and voted Crazy? Did you discuss anything in your daytalk about voting Crazy or Fire? Why did you go your separate ways?

We have not daytalked at all tbh. I said a little about what I expected to see in this game up front, and then we haven't said a word to each other. I have not been really invested in this game, nor does it seem he has. So I can't really tell you why he has done anything. I will leave that for him to answer.

[cerebus3]

I

really

need to reread this game. For now I will just respond to the case against me. Hopefully I will be able to actually contribute tonight.

OK, my case on Cere & Harvey, who I believe are werewolves:

Cere

(post numbers are from "see all posts by"):

uhhh.. that was the point crazy. You said the whole scum tell thing is bull if she is scum, which implies that you are judging the whole merit of the scum tell based on Adel's alignment and not on the actual scum tell itself, which does not follow you saying that you know what the scum tell is.

Here he misinterperts Crazy for it to sound like the entire tell is based on Adel alignment, rather than what he actually said which was that Adel can't be scum because she knew about the tell that he perceived as secret. He then doubleposts saying that he misread Crazy and unvotes him, then one post later:

I admitted to misinterpreting him, so do not try to say I was strawmanning him. Saying it is one post later is misleading. There was a whole page of posts between those posts between them. He continued to insist that only townies would know what the scum tell is, and also refused to elaborate on it. but when I looked at my townie PM I didn't see anything that only a townie would know. Sure, the PM did not contain a link to the daytalk thread, but I thought that was true for everyone, and it was public knowledge anyway, so I decided there was nothing there that only townies would know, and that he was full of crap.

IcemanE is fitting with my townie read on him I have at the moment. Still tentative though.

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even is one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

vote: crazy

Basically, defending Iceman for unexplained reaons, which he did on other posts I'll leave out for brevity as well, and attacking Crazy without explaining what changed since the unvote for "misreading" him. In addition, there's the comment that he isn't sure the scumtell exists, which seems like wishy-washiness - he wants to attack Crazy, which was a popular target at the time, and back up Ice, without comitting himself on an opinion on the scumtell one way or the other. Seems odd that he throws out not being sold on the scumtell's existence as sort of an aside, I would think his opinion on Crazy would've changed substentially based on whether or not he thoght there actually was a scumtell for Crazy to pretend to see.

How is IcemanE fitting into my meta of him unexplained? People were voting him and calling him scum, and I said his play reminded me of his play in other games. Charter did this as well, so what do you think of him? Me and Charter can't both be IcemanE's scum buddy.

At that point, I did not think the scum-tell could not exist in the fashion that Crazy was describing, and was inclined to believe that crazy did not know what the scum tell was, and I was not very sure that if a scum tell even existed in the first place. The fact that he did have a scum tell in mind completely derailed this line of thinking.

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Here he completely ignores that Iceman claimed to know the scumtell as well. If he really thought the scumtell was completely made up, why defend Iceman instead if treating him with the same amount of doubt he treated Crazy with? Then later:

Here, RR seems to think that my argument is tied to IcemanE, which it is not. I never said IcemanE would not be guilty of this as well if the scum-tell turned out to be a sham, but just because I am lazy, can you please show me where IcemanE says that he knows what the scum tell is? I remember him speculating that it would probably have something to do with voting patterns, but I don't think he ever said that he knew for a fact what it is.

Gah, I keep going back and forth on this.

His scum-tell was a flop, but scum-crazy would have really had to pull that out of the nowhere don't you think?

That really depends on whether he saw the notice at the beginning of adding daytalking. If he didn't see it, I just don't know where scum-crazy would even come up with such an idea. It is possible that he saw Adel hint at a scum-tell and came up with this as scum, I guess.

If he did see it, then it becomes a question of whether scum crazy would actually come up with a scum tell that he knew would not work. The fact that he deliberated with farside about the scum tell means that maybe they could come up with it together.

As town, both he AND farside would have to have missed the notice that daytalking was added for everyone late though...

If crazy didn't know about that post, then scum-crazy would have to come up with that out of thin air, and if he did know about the post, then he would have come up with a plan to suggest a crappy scum-tell that he knew would not work in order to confuse people, which his posts do not seem that thought out.

I am confused, but it looks like it points at town crazy.... Am I over thinking this?

Take away the whole scum tell shenanigans, and crazy seems really scummy to me though, Voting for yourself is anti-town, and when confronted with a wagon, what does he do? He declares that he shall lurk on purpose.

Gah....

How many votes are on crazy right now?

This is from when the Crazy wagon was starting to lose steam, after I explained why I don't think he's scum despite his odd behavior and Adel started questioning the Crazy voters. What I see here is cere making a big show of his inner conflicts on Crazy, somewhat echoing parts of what I previously said about him while at it, and then somewhat dismisses them by saying that he is "overthinking" and not moving away his vote. Basically, sets up doubts about Crazy that he can either keep ignoring but mention later after Crazy is lynched if the wagon continues growing, or use to unvote if it doesn't.

Hmm... I think what gives weight to this argument is that I did not unvote. You are claiming that my indecisiveness is me just trying to go with the path of least resistance, which I must grant is a plausible interpretation of my post. All I can say is that I really was unsure of what to do at that point.

Then he votes Firestarter,

I think me and neko are on the same wavelength. I was gonna say that!

unvote, vote: firestarter

Continuing to push a wagon when the wagon is proven false is pretty weird.

Taken out of context there's nothing wrong with this post, but I think he was trying to distance himself from scumbuddy fire due to later posting.

You admit there is nothing scummy in this post, so why do you present it as evidence that I am scum? Yes, it is

possible

I was bussing, but there is no evidence to that in the post itself. This does nothing for your case.

I see where IcemanE is coming from. I mean, what started the firestarter wagon?

Here he responds to Iceman attacking dybeck for voting SSF out of the blue when discussion centered on other people. This post is very odd because:
1. There's a key difference between what Fire and dybeck did, which is that Fire's reasons were complete bullshit, and he didn't remove his vote even after people explained very clearly that his case had nothing to do with reality. This wasn't the case with dybeck, so the way he essentialy says the two did the same casts fire in a better light.

I think it was. Dybeck's vote on SSF was weak reasoning in my book, and looked very similar to what Firestarter tried to do. May I ask you how it was different?

2. It feels like he is trying nudge others to move from Fire to dybeck, while staying on Fire himself. You have to wonder why he doens't move to dybeck or say anything further about him if he truely think he's the scummiest player along with Fire.

What?

a)If I was scum with IcemanE, Why would I keep my vote on my scumbuddy, when I have an equally sound reason to vote someone else? (I know this is going to be dismissed as WIFOM, but at least think about it. Even with wifom involved, it is still bad play for scum in my book)

b) You are overstating what I said. like really badly. Where did I ever say that Dybeck was the scummiest player in the game?

C) Why would I move my vote? Dybeck being scummy does not change the fact that Firestarter was scummy.

3. It's phrased in an extremely confusing way, that made panda understandably think he was dissmissing the Fire wagon completely. He then went on to say panda's suspicion of him is unjustified because he took this post as read.

What part of this point makes me more likely to be scum in any way shape or form?

Then cere disappears for a while, and a wagon forms on Ice. His next substantial post:

I read through, but I don't really have much to say.

I think the firestarter/IcemanE lynch is the right move.

Darla putting IcemanE at L-1 while conversation is still going strong is noted.

I see what erratus is saying about Alabaska.

Anything else I forgot about that people want me to comment on?

This post is really, really scummy. After defending Ice throughout the game, it becomes apparant he's gonna be lynched and suddenly he's "the right move". No explanation on this extereme flip flopping, this is the first negative thing he said about Ice since the start of the game, and there were like 4 instances where he agreed with him. I'd expect quite an exlanation for this big change of heart, cere doesn't provide one. He also keeps his vote on Firestarter, just to make sure he looks like a supporter while not actively contributing to the lynch. Also points fingers at Alabaska and DBE, perhaps so he'll look better when voting them in the future.

Wowzers, what a misrepresentation. IcemanE became the right lynch when he was shown to be Fire's lover. I HAD been on the firestarter wagon for a long time, so this is in no way shape or form a flip flop. I did not move my vote because he was at

L-2

. Also, you are claiming that I am saying I see the point of the Alabaska wagon to remain popular, which is once again not evidence that I am scum, merely an possibility for why something happened. It is also possible that I, you know,

actually agreed with them

.

Then:

@689: Oh noes, someone had a similar stance as scum, he must be scum as well! What about the other 10 people on the crazy wagon?

...
Also, for the record, do you think I am IcemanE's scum buddy or on the other scum team? Because your pointing out my similar stance as IcemanE wants to say I am his buddy, but that doesn't fit with me "doubting the fire wagon" yet keeping my vote there, which would indicate me being on the other scum team. You can't have it both ways.

No it doesn't, it indicates he tried to distance from Fire/Ice by voting Firestarter and passively supporting their lynch, and at the same time tried to make Fire look better without unvoting him and ignored how much he defended Ice in the early game. Also this entire second paraghraph gives me a terrible vibe, something I can't quite put my finger on reeks of scum trying to defend himself to me.

I was thinking from the perspective that passively doubting the lynch was something scum on the other team would do when they expected him to flip town, when you can come up with a good reason to doubt the wagon of your scum buddy, it seems illogical to me to keep bussing, but that is really WIFOM anyway. I can't defend against vibes.

More lately:

Oh, and because I didn't say anything earlier, I am ambivalent towards a mass claim.

Goes for a safe place in the middle.

I did not really care whether we claimed or not

We have not daytalked at all tbh. I said a little about what I expected to see in this game up front, and then we haven't said a word to each other. I have not been really invested in this game, nor does it seem he has. So I can't really tell you why he has done anything. I will leave that for him to answer.

While feasible, this claim is more likely to come from scum since a lack of daytalk is far easier to fake.

I knew someone would say this, but all I can say is that it is the truth. Neither me nor Harvey have been that active in this game

That was much longer than I expected it to be...

I shall return tonight.

[cerebus3]

Charter said he "did basically the same thing" in previous games as town, you agreed and later said he "fits your townie read". "Read", as far as I know, hints at a pro town vibe that is independent or stronger than a pure meta call.

Ok, what about the phrase "Still tentative"? If you are going to go all semantics on me, at least acknowledge that I said that my read was unreliable. And now Armlx has also said that Iceman was just acting like Iceman in the post above yours. You have to admit this was not coming out of nowhere.

Iceman clearly saying he knows the tell:

Yes to what adel implied. I would have preferred to keep it less obvious by sort of dancing around it a bit more, but it should work regardless.

Hrmmm... I did not see this post, but yes, now that I have seen it, IcemanE would also be guilty of faking it.

You you had a pro town read on Ice that you never implied changed, and wanted him lynched only for being partners with Fire?

As I said, I did not think that my read on IcemanE was reliable, and it is not like the only thing to have happened between then was that Fire was revealed at Ice's lover. You keep acting like I had said that IcemanE was obv town or something. I did no such thing, merely that he fit what I thought he would do as a townie, and that was MUCH earlier in the game anyway. Stop taking my statements out of context.

Lets assume this position makes sense even cosidering you didn't bother saying so for the minute (not sure it does, I'm doubting Fire's attack on me made you that sure he was scum), why not, at this point, switch to Dybeck which is guilty of the same thing as Fire according to you and doesn't have a lover you consider pro town? I maintain that you wanted to be a (passive) part of a scumwagon.

Now you are the one trying to cast the Fire and Dybeck cases in the same light in order to make me look bad. I merely stated that I thought the way he voted for SSF was very similar to the way Fire voted for you. Fire had continued to act scummy after the fact, a fact that you only seem to bring up when it is convenient for you. You admit that the Firestarter case is stronger, but call me scummy for sticking with him. What kind of total bullshit is that?

[cerebus3]

Hey guys, I am at about page 12 of my reread. I will finish tomorrow.