Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[Raging Rabbit]

Vote Firestarter

, I think you're slightly more likely to use dice for the first time as scum.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm here, the massclaim discussion has reached it's conclusion already so we should give it a rest and get on with the scumhunting. I'm not sure about OP, I believe town is more likely to miss Crazy's "IF YOU ASK ABOUT THIS, I'LL THINK YOU'RE SCUM" note (not a good move, btw), since scum's inclined to look thouroughly into everything said about a secret tell.

Since I don't have the time to read them atm, can somebody who played/read 'em give a synopsis of those two polygamist games HP mentioned?

[Raging Rabbit]

Posts reveal what's on your mind at the time you write them: mine was focused on preventing ways for scum to protect themselves, while RR's was focused on scum investigating the "secret tell".

...after they claim their partner, they can just say "I don't think we should lynch him because he's my partner." It makes it too easy for the scum, IMO.

In order to prevent scum from protecting partners, you put yourself in the shoes of scum trying to protect a partner. This is exactly identical to what I did, in order to judge if OP's reaction was likely to come from scum. I don't see how it's even possible to scumhunt if you don't try to figure out how is scum likely to act. The example you quoted was a Freudian slip, and has nothing to do with the post your reason for voting me which is, as far as I understand, trying to gauge how scum would react to a certain situation. This isn't only hypocrital since you did the same yourself, it's also absolutely false.

I also agree with Crazy about your comments on the scumtell, it looks like you tried way too hard to make it extra clear to everyone that you know what it is.

Unvote, vote IcemanE.

[Raging Rabbit]

I speculate that farside and crazy are scumpartners and lovers attempting to beat the tell.

unvote - vote: Crazy

This post makes me very happy with my vote.

[Raging Rabbit]

Why, in particular?

'Cause saying two people who happened to vote for you for a similar resaon are probably "scumpartners and lovers attempting to beat the tell" is extremely far fetched. Do you really think a pair of scum lovers would act this obvious? Are any two people voting for similar reasons likely lovers? I think you were OMGUSing your attackers, using the Almighty Tell.

"I see an inherent difference between your post and mine because you implied an action which you could have been, and most likely were, doing at the time of writing your post. I was attempting to dissuade everyone from mass-claiming to prevent scum from being able to do something further down the road. "

Semantic arguments aside, we both tried to gauge how scum would react to a certain situation by putting ourselves in their shoes. There's no way to hunt scum if you don't try to think like them, your tell is completely false and looks made up since you did the same thing.

What's your point with this? I stressed that because I thought mass-claiming lovers was a bad idea.

Or possibly to make yourself look extra vauluable/innocent by acknowledging it (and your knowledge of it) so much.



Crazy is acting really, really odd. I need to reread him now that I know what he had in mind all this time, for now I'll only

FOS

since I very much like my Iceman vote.

[Raging Rabbit]

Did a quick reread on Crazy, he's acting all chaotic and, well, crazy really. The way he keeps flip-flopping ideas and opinions bothers me, especially how he kept swinging at his attackers after being wagoned (Iceman>Charter>Sekinj>back to Iceman, after which he voted himself), like he tried to throw some fire their way to dissuade them for persuing his wagon. I think scum is slightly liklier to be that OMGUSy and to vote themselves in frustration, but can see misguided town do that as well and Crazy certainly proved himself to be misguided, whatever his alignment is.

What bothers me most, though, is this post:

Aww crap, I don't want to get lynched because that means that farside has to die, too, and that's not really fair to her.

And I don't want to get replaced, because then if the town wins then I don't win with them.

So the only option is thus to mega-lurk and post one-liners every 2 days.

See ya.

In which he both blatantly appeals to emotion and informs us all that he's gonna lurk in plain sight.


Another thing is the way he immediatly changed his opinion on mass claiming after adel's post based on a far fetched idea for a tell. Town should've double checked this, so it could be he was scum eager to make himself look pro town by being the first one to "pick up" on Adel's tell. On the other hand, if he was scum and knew the "daytalk tell" is null all along, I doubt he'd argue so strongly for it, attack Iceman for having a different idea and essentially claim it when pressured. If I choose to believe he honestly thought he had a secret tell, he pretty much has to be town since scum would know that they have a daytalking forum as well as town and would thus not think there's anything secret about it or that it's a scumtell. The way I see it, the only real possibility for Crazy to be scum is if he knew he has a null tell all along and still to pretended he believes it in order to make himself look valuable or something, but considering the way he played this I find this quite unlikely. I'm therefore inclined to believe he is misguided town, despite all his odd and sometimes scummy behaviour.

Besides, I really like my vote on Iceman.

[Raging Rabbit]

All crazy voters -

Do you believe, like OF, that Crazy knew his "daytalk tell" wasn't valid all along, and just made it up when pressured in order for to look like he made a honest mistake? If not, why are you voting him?

[Raging Rabbit]

But you have to believe he was making the daytalk stuff up if you think he's scum, otherwise he can't be.

[Raging Rabbit]

Cephrir & Iceman - You claim that Crazy believed his daytalk tell was valid, but is still scum. But scum have their own daytalk forum, and thus scum-Crazy would

know

townies aren't the only ones with daytalk and thus

know

his scumtell isn't valid. I'd like you to explain how this is possible.

[Raging Rabbit]

It's not that I think he knew it wasn't valid; I don't see anything pointing one way or the other in that regard. It's that I think he was more concerned with using the tell to clear himself than to catch scum. I believe this because of:

1: His insistence that scum couldn't come up with the tell
2: His "it's better that I get lynched as town than reveal the tell" post, followed by revealing the tell once people started doubting him.

1 isn't scummy if he truely believed the daytalk tell, but I agree with 2 and find Crazy scummy for numerous other things. The reason I'm not voting for him is that it really seems to me that he earnestly believed the daytalk tell, and if he did he has to be town. This for me is stronger then all my suspicions of him, and I encourage Crazy wagoners to take this into acount. If you also think he honestly believed the tell, I can't see why you're voting him.

[Raging Rabbit]

I also don't like Crazy and Farside's attack on Charter. They're too united and OMGUSy, looks to me like they just chose a wagoner and attacked him in unison.

[Raging Rabbit]

Heres an idea.... why dont I get the feedback Ive called for from RR... thank you!

Well, Adel had to go off saying everything and spoil my fun (:P), just for the record I'd be all over you even had she not attacked you first. What she said is absolutely true - you attack me on something that's been explained in the very posts you refer to, and after being called up on it you basically say that it's not actually a case (huh?) and that voting for bad reasons is ok since Adel asked to explore other wagons. Bascially, a load of very scummy crap logic.

My vote on Iceman isn't doing much, so

unvote

(but IGMEOY),

vote firestarter

.

Firestarter, I noticed you haven't supplied as with even a word of your thought about the actual Crazy wagon. What do you make of it? Also, what's your read on Iceman?

[Raging Rabbit]

Firestarter asking for replacement looks like scum giving up, a townie's more likely to hang back and defend himself imo.

While I find Iceman scummy regardless of Adel's case, I'll delay judgment on it until she explains something that's really confusing me:

Adel wrote:

Crazy didn't know that the scum also got a second pm!



???

Two things about this post:
1. How do you know the scum also got a second pm?
2. Your entire argument crumbles at the feet of this point, as you've entirely contradicted yourself - you attempt to say I didn't realize everyone got a second PM with their link to the QT, and then you say scum also got one - so if I was scum, I would have gotten one, according to what you're saying here. Why then would I assume townies didn't?

This really does seem to contradict the rest of your case, please explain this and also how you know that scum got two PM's.

[Raging Rabbit]

Firestarter asking for replacement looks like scum giving up, a townie's more likely to hang back and defend himself imo.

FYI, Firestarter asked for replacement because he was in too many games, and was struggling to keep up with them. You should seethis thread. In this game, Firestarter was under lots of pressure in the beginning during day 1 in that thread, but captured scum, and is now in day 3. Firestarter did not seek replacement because of being under attack, just to make that clear.

Still, the fact that he asked for replacement in this particular game means something. You have an interest to say it's just because he was busy whether that's true or not, but I can't help but take into acount the fact that he did choose to be replaced out of this game immediatly after being attacked. It's a very minor scumtell though, I'd be voting him/you regardless because of the very scummy attack on me.

[Raging Rabbit]

Still, the fact that he asked for replacement in this particular game means something. You have an interest to say it's just because he was busy whether that's true or not, but I can't help but take into acount the fact that he did choose to be replaced out of this game immediatly after being attacked.

Just as a note, this game is moving at a faster pace than any game I've played before on this site. If I were forced to choose between this game and others, for time management's sake, I would drop this one, too. Farside sounds ready to drop it herself - is it less scummy that she's waited for the pressure to drop off of her lover to call it quits? I think it's simply an effect of the game's incredible pace.

It's possible, but his timing is still convinient and if what you're saying was the case I'd expect him to make a "sorry for replacing out but I'm overcommited" post, which is less likely to come from frustrated scum. Again though, this is a minor point.

[Raging Rabbit]

From my experience, making a poor case on someone isn't scummy - rather, it's just making a poor case on someone.

Town can make poor cases, true, but only scum has incentive to fabricate reasons to vote, and Firestarter's vote looks completely fabricated.

[Raging Rabbit]

Damn, completely forgot about the deadline. We have five days to decide on a lynch.

I'm waiting to hear from Adel about the various respones to her tell on Iceman, and from orangepenguin. The other inactives that Iceman mentioned would also do well to chime in.

[Raging Rabbit]

At the moment I'm not sold on Adel's Iceman slip, but find him scummy for his general behavior, especially earlier in the game. I could go either way on Iceman and Firestarter.

[Raging Rabbit]

I think by now it should be clear that Firestarter (now OP) is my lover. His fabrication of that case was an attempt to derail the wagon growing on me - yes, it was poorly planned and executed, but I requested that he attempt to pull a few votes off of me - sadly, instead of backing my case on Crazy, as we discussed, he decided to start an entirely new wagon.

So you're lovers? Excellent! That's two for the price of one. Asking your lover to fabricate a wagon is more likely a scum move, too.

Unvote, vote IcemanE.

That's lynch-2 I believe, we should wait for further input from inactives before hammering.

[Raging Rabbit]

Dybeck - you are

so

full of it. This day has been extremely fast paced and very informational, a large amount of analysis-worthy things happened and we definitely have enough to point fingers tommorow, especially assuming we go for a pinguin/Ice (death to the North Pole! ) lynch. Not only that, we are

four days

away from deadline. Do you honestly expect us to get off the well formed, strongest wagon and start voting for lurkers?
You never even bothered to explain what it is that you dislike about the wagon, only said that it sucks and indicative of a lazy town without bothering to refute any of the things the wagon's based on to prove that. It's like your goal isn't really to stop the wagon, it's to say "told ya so!" tommorow if they turn out town.
Also, your posts give an extra alignment knowledge vibe,

that only scum have

. When ThAdmiral said exactly that, you essentialy replied "yep, I am scum and have that knowledge. Whatever. Just get off the wagon I don't like!"

FOS

for now, penguin and Ice are still scummier. Also, you claim to have said similar things in other games. Could you link to one?

@RR- the post following the one where you asked your question answered your question.

I see, you're right. He'd still have to miss the mod's notification that he opened daytalking forums for

everyone

, but your explanation for his odd choice of words is as good as his if not moreso. Just one more reason to want PinguinIce lynched.

[Raging Rabbit]

Yeah you pretty much paraphrased EXACTLY what I said there. Great work.

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

This post has all the hallmarks of scum knowing a townie will be lynched so he can say "told you so" tomorrow.

Almost makes me want to get off the wagon.

Don't just talk about it, do it.

If you think he's a townie, stop voting for him. All it needs is a few people to jump off and we can really go scumhunting.

ThAdmiral said that your post looks like scum with predetermined knowledge, which made him want to get off the wagon. You essentially replied "sure, just get off the wagon!" and never said anything about his reason for wanting to get off it - that he thinks you're scum - which is almost like agreeing with it.

Way to ignore the rest of my post, btw.

[Raging Rabbit]

And Iceman's paraphrase is useless, if for some reason that's not clear to anyone.

[Raging Rabbit]

Me and my lover have talked about way more that just the infamous scumtell and massclaim. You make no mention of who you think might be scum, or who you think might be lovers, nothing like that. I'm quite sure that all townies have talked about more than massclaim and the "scumtell". Yes, quite sure you are scum now.

QFT. Maybe Fire & Ice just had a bad relationship, but the lack of DT content makes them look even scummier.

[Raging Rabbit]

He was always too busy with his other "games", never gave you any attention.

[Raging Rabbit]

Also, anyone read RR's post saying todsay was really informative like scum trying to keep a lynch from stalling? Almost makes me want to get off the wagon. FoS: RR.

I truely think today was very informative, this game's been going on for less than two weeks and we're on page *26*. Lots of content in these pages, too. Why would scum even want to put their necks out to "keep a lynch from stalling", when it's super obvious that the lynch is gonna happen at deadline anyways?

This same point makes me not-so-suspicious of DBE, who I think just made a mistake due to lack of paying attention. Scum has no incentive to do what she did with deadline looming in, it just drew attention to her. Therefore, I think it's just bad play and doesn't indicate much about her alignment one way or the other.

I agree with EA that Alabaska is being mostly useless and somewhat contradicts himself to boot,

IGMEOY

. I also dislike Crazy acting so very smug. Regardless, PinguinIce are still by far the best lynch imo.

The number of people who are suspicious of RR and yet are sharing a wagon with him are making me a bit nervous.

Huh? Who exactly are you talking about, besides Alabaska?

[Raging Rabbit]

ThAdmiral, is there anything wrong with discussing possible lynch candidates for tomorrow when there is obviously not going to be any alternative to the ice/op lynch today? I see discussion happening, not necessarily the setting up of lynches.

There's a fine line between discussing options and setting up lynches. I don't really think there's any danger of an actual chain-lynch being set up, but it's better to make sure of that by mentioning the possibility, methinks.

I don't see much wrong in discussing options for tommorow in our spare time, it's not like the mafia has any night choices this helps them with.

[Raging Rabbit]

Did a quick skim of the game, couple of things:

Crazy wrote:
Iceman, the following quotes show that you have no idea what we're talking about.

IcemanE wrote:
Yes to what adel implied. I would have preferred to keep it less obvious by sort of dancing around it a bit more, but it should work regardless.


IcemanE wrote:
Right - it's possible that from other similar games, she knows the tell, meaning she could be scum this game too.


You are pretending to see this scum-tell that Adel mentioned. I don't believe town would do that.

Unvote, Vote IcemanE


Can you explain why you go from saying Adel shouldn't have brought up anything to calling her possible scum for the tell then voting crazy for saying he knows what the claim is? Was he the only one to say such a thing? You seem in your own post to indicate you know what it means. I think your vote is hypocritical.

Why would anyone

ever

say that about a lover, and in game rather than DT to top? I really want to hear Farside explain what exactly she was thinking about, 'cause the only explanation I can think of is scum distancing.

About the secret scumtell - Adel brought it up, the only ones who claimed to pick up on it were IceScum and Crazy, who was dead wrong. I'm starting to think Adel made it up, especially cosidering how she recently forgot all about it and started encouraging a mass claim.

FOS: Adel

, the way she tried to use her influence to push the town to DBE at the last minute is scummy as well, especially since she said she's gonna be quiet and let people think for themselves a few posts before that. I think the massclaim should wait until Adel explains what exactly she was on about with the tell.

Also, I think ThAdmiral is intentionally flying under the radar. IGMEOY.

[Raging Rabbit]

I dislike how Adel completely ignored several points made against her and just commented on the mafia vs. werewolves thing (obviously, we should lynch whoever's most likely anti town regardless of faction).

Vote: Adel

, I'll reconsider this once she explains what's up with her flip flopping both on the "secret scumtell" and on Iceman's wagon.

[Raging Rabbit]

Has anyone noticed that we lynched scum before I flip-flopped on the massclaim.

So?

[Raging Rabbit]

Adel - if you've lost faith in it and it isn't gonna be of use anyway, please just tell us what it is. No use keeping it secret anymore, right?
Also, what made you lose faith in your case against Iceman so much that you switched to voting DBE because of her (L-1) vote on him?

I support the massclaim, will claim once I get the ok from my lover.

[Raging Rabbit]

potential scumtell: a player distancing himslef from his lover prior to claiming.
basis: scum tend to distance themselves from their partners, and could also distance themselves from their lover out of habit or reflex. A

fos

of a lover would be a particularly strong version of the tell.

I didn't lose faith in the iceman lynch, I lost faith in the informational potential of the iceman lynch, especially if it proved to be a mislynch. I also wanted to identify who was blindly following me, and to put some pressure on DBE to post more.

No idea why you didn't say this earlier, but this actually makes a lot of sense. I suppose there's no harm done about the switch to DBE since it obviously had no chance of changing the lynch, so you got some info to boot. What to you make of people's response to your switch to DBE, all the FOSes and such?

Unvote. Massclaim.

[Raging Rabbit]

We are in some sort of lovers conference, only we decided to lynch someone every day so that his partner will go all Shakespearian and kill himself. This is because we suspect that some of us are gangsters and/or werewolves.

Other than that, you should read the game and make up your own mind.

[Raging Rabbit]

ThAdmiral, you need to stop posting one liners and provide some more content. Who do you think is scum?

[Raging Rabbit]

We need to get this going if we want more time to discuss before deadline, and it's clear the majority of the town wants to massclaim. I'm gonna go ahead and start it.

My lover is WaltWishbone.

[Raging Rabbit]

Now that we know who all the couples are, I'll do a reread in the near future and try to form a solid case. For now, I'm not liking DBE/Admiral and Kloud/Alabaska.

[Raging Rabbit]

After a partial read on the people I felt are iffy,

vote Harvey Pew

. Him and cere have been playing it passive and did their share of distancing from IcePenguin without actually supporting their lynch, I think they're the other werewolves. I'll elaborate later, got an exam to study for.

[Raging Rabbit]

OK, my case on Cere & Harvey, who I believe are werewolves:

Cere

(post numbers are from "see all posts by"):

uhhh.. that was the point crazy. You said the whole scum tell thing is bull if she is scum, which implies that you are judging the whole merit of the scum tell based on Adel's alignment and not on the actual scum tell itself, which does not follow you saying that you know what the scum tell is.

Here he misinterperts Crazy for it to sound like the entire tell is based on Adel alignment, rather than what he actually said which was that Adel can't be scum because she knew about the tell that he perceived as secret. He then doubleposts saying that he misread Crazy and unvotes him, then one post later:

IcemanE is fitting with my townie read on him I have at the moment. Still tentative though.

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even is one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

vote: crazy

Basically, defending Iceman for unexplained reaons, which he did on other posts I'll leave out for brevity as well, and attacking Crazy without explaining what changed since the unvote for "misreading" him. In addition, there's the comment that he isn't sure the scumtell exists, which seems like wishy-washiness - he wants to attack Crazy, which was a popular target at the time, and back up Ice, without comitting himself on an opinion on the scumtell one way or the other. Seems odd that he throws out not being sold on the scumtell's existence as sort of an aside, I would think his opinion on Crazy would've changed substentially based on whether or not he thoght there actually was a scumtell for Crazy to pretend to see.

Next he goes on defending Ice and distrusting Crazy and Adel.

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Here he completely ignores that Iceman claimed to know the scumtell as well. If he really thought the scumtell was completely made up, why defend Iceman instead if treating him with the same amount of doubt he treated Crazy with? Then later:

Gah, I keep going back and forth on this.

His scum-tell was a flop, but scum-crazy would have really had to pull that out of the nowhere don't you think?

That really depends on whether he saw the notice at the beginning of adding daytalking. If he didn't see it, I just don't know where scum-crazy would even come up with such an idea. It is possible that he saw Adel hint at a scum-tell and came up with this as scum, I guess.

If he did see it, then it becomes a question of whether scum crazy would actually come up with a scum tell that he knew would not work. The fact that he deliberated with farside about the scum tell means that maybe they could come up with it together.

As town, both he AND farside would have to have missed the notice that daytalking was added for everyone late though...

If crazy didn't know about that post, then scum-crazy would have to come up with that out of thin air, and if he did know about the post, then he would have come up with a plan to suggest a crappy scum-tell that he knew would not work in order to confuse people, which his posts do not seem that thought out.

I am confused, but it looks like it points at town crazy.... Am I over thinking this?

Take away the whole scum tell shenanigans, and crazy seems really scummy to me though, Voting for yourself is anti-town, and when confronted with a wagon, what does he do? He declares that he shall lurk on purpose.

Gah....

How many votes are on crazy right now?

This is from when the Crazy wagon was starting to lose steam, after I explained why I don't think he's scum despite his odd behavior and Adel started questioning the Crazy voters. What I see here is cere making a big show of his inner conflicts on Crazy, somewhat echoing parts of what I previously said about him while at it, and then somewhat dismisses them by saying that he is "overthinking" and not moving away his vote. Basically, sets up doubts about Crazy that he can either keep ignoring but mention later after Crazy is lynched if the wagon continues growing, or use to unvote if it doesn't.

Then he votes Firestarter,

I think me and neko are on the same wavelength. I was gonna say that!

unvote, vote: firestarter

Continuing to push a wagon when the wagon is proven false is pretty weird.

Taken out of context there's nothing wrong with this post, but I think he was trying to distance himself from scumbuddy fire due to later posting.

I see where IcemanE is coming from. I mean, what started the firestarter wagon?

Here he responds to Iceman attacking dybeck for voting SSF out of the blue when discussion centered on other people. This post is very odd because:
1. There's a key difference between what Fire and dybeck did, which is that Fire's reasons were complete bullshit, and he didn't remove his vote even after people explained very clearly that his case had nothing to do with reality. This wasn't the case with dybeck, so the way he essentialy says the two did the same casts fire in a better light.
2. It feels like he is trying nudge others to move from Fire to dybeck, while staying on Fire himself. You have to wonder why he doens't move to dybeck or say anything further about him if he truely think he's the scummiest player along with Fire.
3. It's phrased in an extremely confusing way, that made panda understandably think he was dissmissing the Fire wagon completely. He then went on to say panda's suspicion of him is unjustified because he took this post as read.


Then cere disappears for a while, and a wagon forms on Ice. His next substantial post:

I read through, but I don't really have much to say.

I think the firestarter/IcemanE lynch is the right move.

Darla putting IcemanE at L-1 while conversation is still going strong is noted.

I see what erratus is saying about Alabaska.

Anything else I forgot about that people want me to comment on?

This post is really, really scummy. After defending Ice throughout the game, it becomes apparant he's gonna be lynched and suddenly he's "the right move". No explanation on this extereme flip flopping, this is the first negative thing he said about Ice since the start of the game, and there were like 4 instances where he agreed with him. I'd expect quite an exlanation for this big change of heart, cere doesn't provide one. He also keeps his vote on Firestarter, just to make sure he looks like a supporter while not actively contributing to the lynch. Also points fingers at Alabaska and DBE, perhaps so he'll look better when voting them in the future. Then:

@689: Oh noes, someone had a similar stance as scum, he must be scum as well! What about the other 10 people on the crazy wagon?

...
Also, for the record, do you think I am IcemanE's scum buddy or on the other scum team? Because your pointing out my similar stance as IcemanE wants to say I am his buddy, but that doesn't fit with me "doubting the fire wagon" yet keeping my vote there, which would indicate me being on the other scum team. You can't have it both ways.

No it doesn't, it indicates he tried to distance from Fire/Ice by voting Firestarter and passively supporting their lynch, and at the same time tried to make Fire look better without unvoting him and ignored how much he defended Ice in the early game. Also this entire second paraghraph gives me a terrible vibe, something I can't quite put my finger on reeks of scum trying to defend himself to me.

More lately:

Oh, and because I didn't say anything earlier, I am ambivalent towards a mass claim.

Goes for a safe place in the middle.

We have not daytalked at all tbh. I said a little about what I expected to see in this game up front, and then we haven't said a word to each other. I have not been really invested in this game, nor does it seem he has. So I can't really tell you why he has done anything. I will leave that for him to answer.

While feasible, this claim is more likely to come from scum since a lack of daytalk is far easier to fake.

*phew*, now to Harvey, which shouldn't take too long 'cause he's a lurker.

[Raging Rabbit]

Harvey Pew

:

First of all, he's a huge lurker. Has really stuck to staying behind the scene and not doing much. Scummy for that alone, although he certainly isn't the only lurker.

In his first 3 posts, says mass-claiming isn't a significant benefit and that there isn't a super secret scumtell as far as he knows. I would've considered this as town town if he'd have done it earlier since saying this takes some guts, but at this point Crazy's tell was revealed to be completely wrong and people's belief in it dwindled.

Crazy's play has been.. erratic, but firestarter's mistakes seem worse:

Vote: Firestarter

Votes Fire, echoing reasons given earlier.

You are right, icemanE, I haven't been posting enough.

Firstly, my Firestarter vote looks really weak. I apologise, I don't know what I read into your posts but I can't see it today:

unvote: Firestarter

All the current voting really originated with Adel's claim of a scum-tell. Whether she has one or not it was a markedly effective ploy... certainly against Crazy and icemanE.

Adel has really pursued icemanE over his apparent confusion over the forums (fora?). icemanE comes across as desperate and did make a mistake; personally I think he didn't read his PM closely enough. I agree that townies know less than scum, even with lovers' daytalking forum, it is the basis of the mafia game. I'm not sure of the skew the extra forums creates but I don't think it is enormous.

Crazy initially pushed hard for mass-claiming then converted to supporting Adel, or so he thought. He has a long series of posts about the scum-tell, curtailed when Adel says his actions are nonsense in relation to her tell. To later state "I obviously did not make anything up" is a terrible lie. Then he really attacks icemanE.

As I read through the posts by icemanE and Crazy I though both came across very poorly. They both tried to support Adel and their mistakes (or over-confidence?) have cost them dearly. I'm not sure it justifies a lynching as I don't really believe in scum-slips, but I do believe in townies being lynched for making a single mistake. But, Crazy's play seems worse so:

vote: Crazy

^Just the kind of action icemanE was hoping for when he called for more input!

Really scummy, for several reasons:
1. Mysteriously forgets about Firestarter's scuminess, states that he basically doesn't see anything wrong with him now. I think since attention was on Ice and Crazy he thought he could get away with dismissing Fire and hope that Iceman won't be forced to claim and draw attention back to Fire.
2. "Both Ice and Crazy come across poorly", but he seems to think that Ice made a honest mistake and Crazy intentionally made stuff up. I think at that point things looked completely the other way around, Crazy's mistake was far more believable.
3. Never actually explains why he chooses to believe Ice, never actually explains why he thinks Crazy's lying. Doesn't address the points I made against the Crazy wagon earlier. The length of his post makes it look like it has to contain actual points, but he basically just gives a summary of things that happened and then declares Ice is earnest and Crazy isn't without really establishing why he thinks that. I think he wrote this post with the intention to vote Crazy and move pressure away from Ice while appearing to have given him a close look.

icemanE wrote:
The case on Fire is pretty weak once you know he's my lover - he was defending me, albeit in a horrible fashion.


I agree, but clearly no-one else does. In fact it was funny to watch the votes pile up on you after I had said you were probably an inno and switched my vote to Crazy.

Defends Fire & Ice further, notice that "probably in inno" suggests complete lack of suspicion and a pro town read.

...Because I believe it is possible for townies to make mistakes and for it to be no more than that. I prefer to assume innocence. Jumping on every error screaming "scum!" does not appeal to me. You must have seen it yourself in the games where you are mafia: many town players grasp at a single mistake and build it into a case which you know is complete nonsense. As a townie I am certain that this has happened here/is happening here/will happen here in the future.

I am pleased we caught some mafia here but I think it was down more to good fortune than skill. As evinced by sekinj trying to make a case on D2 for me being scum, based solely on the fact that I didn't vote as he did. Since he FoS'd Crazy twice D1 and devoted a post to simply stating "FoS: Harvey" I'm not particularly moved.
...

Here he downplays his defence of Iceman, and creates a smokescreen by his theory discussion of townie mistakes. This enables him to avoid explaining what made him actively think Iceman just didn't read his PM closely enough while Crazy was evil scum, both of them made "townie mistakes" (Iceman's looked far

less

like unfortuante cofusion, if anything) and Harvey never explained the difference.

These are really the only susbstantial things Harvey said, which just shows how big a lurker he is. Been playing a very quiet game, his only signifacnt move being the attempt to derail the lynch from Ice to Crazy for reasons that, upon close inspection, don't exist.

[Raging Rabbit]

I apologize my case is so long, and hope everyone will still take the time to read into it. I really think I'm on to something here.

I somewhat agree with AE about Kloud/Ala as well, but to a much lesser extent. Dybeck defended Ice so strongly it actually makes me doubt they're partners, I believe he'd have gone more for distancing if that was the case. Alabaska is just acting really odd. I have them pegged as possibly mafia, but my case on Harvey and cere is much stronger imo.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm only gonna adress my major point, your interaction with IcePenguin, to keep this from turning into an overly long discussion only the two of us will read and to save time.

How is IcemanE fitting into my meta of him unexplained? People were voting him and calling him scum, and I said his play reminded me of his play in other games. Charter did this as well, so what do you think of him? Me and Charter can't both be IcemanE's scum buddy.

Charter said he "did basically the same thing" in previous games as town, you agreed and later said he "fits your townie read". "Read", as far as I know, hints at a pro town vibe that is independent or stronger than a pure meta call.

Here, RR seems to think that my argument is tied to IcemanE, which it is not. I never said IcemanE would not be guilty of this as well if the scum-tell turned out to be a sham, but just because I am lazy, can you please show me where IcemanE says that he knows what the scum tell is? I remember him speculating that it would probably have something to do with voting patterns, but I don't think he ever said that he knew for a fact what it is.

It's tied to Iceman because of the simple fact that Crazy wasn't the only one "running with it", and yet you chose to leave Ice completely out of the spotlight. It doesn't matter that you never said he wasn't guilty of this, you never said he was either and this convienient miss coupled with your "pro town read" makes me think you were at that point trying to defend a scumbuddy.

Iceman clearly saying he knows the tell:

Yes to what adel implied. I would have preferred to keep it less obvious by sort of dancing around it a bit more, but it should work regardless.

I think it was. Dybeck's vote on SSF was weak reasoning in my book, and looked very similar to what Firestarter tried to do. May I ask you how it was different?

There's a very clear difference between weak reasoning and bullshit reasoning that Fire kept holding onto even after people explained exactly how he was wrong. Saying the two are the same casts Fire in a better light.

a)If I was scum with IcemanE, Why would I keep my vote on my scumbuddy, when I have an equally sound reason to vote someone else? (I know this is going to be dismissed as WIFOM, but at least think about it. Even with wifom involved, it is still bad play for scum in my book)

It's called distancing.

b) You are overstating what I said. like really badly. Where did I ever say that Dybeck was the scummiest player in the game?

C) Why would I move my vote? Dybeck being scummy does not change the fact that Firestarter was scummy.

a. You're voting for Fire, and thus think he's the scummiest player.
b. You say Dybeck is guilty of the exact same thing Fire's guilty of.
Conclusion: you think Dybeck is the scummiest player along with Fire.

You did not necassarily have to move your vote, what you should've down cosidering that statement is keep an equal eye out for Dybeck and Fire.

Wowzers, what a misrepresentation. IcemanE became the right lynch when he was shown to be Fire's lover. I HAD been on the firestarter wagon for a long time, so this is in no way shape or form a flip flop.

You you had a pro town read on Ice that you never implied changed, and wanted him lynched only for being partners with Fire? Lets assume this position makes sense even cosidering you didn't bother saying so for the minute (not sure it does, I'm doubting Fire's attack on me made you

that

sure he was scum), why not, at this point, switch to Dybeck which is guilty of the same thing as Fire according to you and

doesn't

have a lover you consider pro town? I maintain that you wanted to be a (passive) part of a scumwagon.

when you can come up with a good reason to doubt the wagon of your scum buddy, it seems illogical to me to keep bussing

Untrue, both before the Icewagon grew where it's simple distancing and especially one their lynch became inevitable.

[Raging Rabbit]

I can understand that armlx wants to show us he's reading the game, but he threw tons of page 8 and earlier thoughts out there that have no relevance to the game whatsoever, which makes it harder to see if he's onto anyhing that hasn't been explained yet.

I'm not sure what I think about OF, his argument with Crazy gives me the vibe of two townies going for each other's throats. Can someone explain the case on him more clearly?

On another note, Knight of Cydonia's avatar is giving me a headache.

[Raging Rabbit]

RR - it's just an eye, blinking.

It's the blinking part that gets me, the constant movement on the side of the screen is really annoying when I'm trying to read. Maybe it's just me.

RR: I'm progressing through the game. I only got to page 14.

I completely understand that you can't immediately catch up, take your time. Thing is, nothing can be gained from your post since like 90% of it has already become irrelevant, why don't you wait with posting thouthts until you're finished reading through?

Harvey's post is an extreme misrep, anyone who takes the time to read will see my case on him has a lot more to it than being a lurker and wrong. Probably lazy scum who figured he can avoid a direct defense by just dismissing what I wrote as BS, happy with my vote.

[Raging Rabbit]

Also, RR, I don't believe my reading of your case is a "extreme misrep". The basis of your argument, not the mis-readings you add after quoting me, is that I have lurked and voted for someone other than "IcePenguin."

Way to strawman my argument. Not being on the lynching wagon clearly isn't a tell by itself, what gets to me is the way you mysterioiusly forgot about Fire and then went for Crazy because "his mistake seemed worse", without explaining why. It's the way you defended Ice, not the fact that you did so. cere, on the other hand, defended Iceman while trying to both vote Crazy and appear to have doubts about him, and then went for a passive bus on Iceman.

1. What made you suddenly decide your Firestarter vote was "really weak"?
2. Why did you take Ice's mistake as "confusion", while Crazy saying that he didn't intentionally make anything up is "a terrible lie"?

It's also funny how you said that lurking and not voting (read: defending in a very scummy manner) Fire & Ice are the only things I have on you and my case is thus no good, because you lurked so much that said things are essentialy

all you've done

.


I don't think some formula about who was on which wagon is gonna achieve anything, way too many variables for it to be anything but a tower of WIFOM cards.


armlx, what worries me is that any useful info in these reread posts will go to waste because no one's gonna bother paying attention to page 8 relevant opinions. I'd be completely ok with this if you'll do a full recap of everything you still think is relevant once you're finished.

[Raging Rabbit]

'Cause that way we won't have to sort through all the things you thought were relevant on page 8 and aren't anymore.

[Raging Rabbit]

armlx - I just thought said input would be far easier to read and thus probably more valuable if you'll make it easier for us seperate the outdated stuff, but do whatever you want.

[Raging Rabbit]

While I disagree with OF's case, I don't see what about it makes him all that scummy. Not sure at all that his misconseption of Crazy's read on Adel was delibarate.

Thanks for changing avatars, knight.

[Raging Rabbit]

WWB + RR = mild scummy. Mainly due to RR's not wanting me to post stuff...

Nice misrep. Never said I don't want you to post stuff, only that the method you use to tell us your thoughts is highly ineffiecient since you comment so much on things that have since become irrelevant that nobody's likely to reread everything you refer to just to check if any of them still has merit. Therefore, flooding us with info like that results in us being

less

likely to figure out what you actually think. You should filter through all that stuff and tell us what's still relevant to you, rather than expect every player in the game to check for himself in order to see if he agrees with you.

[Raging Rabbit]

Unvote, vote cerbus3. Consolidating votes with Panda.

[Raging Rabbit]

Make that

unvote, vote cerebus3

.

[Raging Rabbit]

Yes, because my disagreeing on the best way to share info =/ "not wanting you to post stuff". Disagreeing with me is one thing, twisitng my words and using them as a scumtell is another one altogether.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm going on a trip tomorrow, no access for about a week 'till next Saturday/Sunday. I apologize in advance and hope you don't replace me in my abscense.

[Raging Rabbit]

Good luck with lynchign HP/cere, see you guys next Sunday-ish.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm back, had to stop my reread at page 47. Misslynch was a shame, especially since it would've gone the other way around had Crazy remembed to unvote if I'm not mistaken. I'll finish my reread when I can, probably tommorow. I'd vote cere/HP now but I prefer to wait 'till I'm read up and know that nothing dramatic happened.

[Raging Rabbit]

Read up, though I have an annoying cold so my attention span isn't at it's best. Darox and replacement are fairly pro town imo, charter and Ceph I'm not sure about. ThAdmiral and DBE are my number one choice for mafia (I agree with most of what Panda said about them), but I like HP/cere for werewolves better. In the week I was gone cere disappeared and HP is continuing to act scummy, both with the completely worthless "you appeal to emotion too!" attack and saying that he already responded to my case, which he didn't:

I thought about point-by-point defence, but I don't see the need with such epic reaching. Essentially RR thinks I am scum because I haven't posted a lot, I voted incorrectly on the D1 lynch and posted the thinking behind my vote.

I really don't see that RR and sekinj's behind-the-post thinking--in that a vote for the D1 lynch clears someone and a vote elsewhere D1 is incriminating--is in any way credible. There are fifteen players who were not on the lynch, twelve if you wish to be pedantic. No scum in on the lynch? So unlikely I can't give it any credence--you'd be better off scum-hunting in the nine lynchers than the rest.

While misreping cases against you as complete bullshit is fun, dodging isn't an actual answer. It's not the fact you were on the wrong wagon that got to me, it's the manner in which you did so which should've been obvious if you actually read my case. Your lurking is part of the reason I'm voting you, but the entire second paragraph has nothing to do with what I said. And saying I suspect you for "posting the thinking behid your vote"? Please. This is not a defence, you never actually made any sort of sort of defence that isn't strawmanning the things said against you, and saying that you didn't vote the person you thought was scum yesterday because you didn't want to look bad doesn't sit well with me either.

I think I'd go with Harvey at this point even if it wasn't for cere being really scummy as well.

Vote Harvey Pew

.

[Raging Rabbit]

Also note that HP/cere weren't comepletely on the wrong wagon, cere passively supported Ice's lynch by voting Fire and staying there (which to me stinks of distancing), and Harvey voted Fire at some point and his suspision mysteriously fizzled in his following post.

[Raging Rabbit]

Well Harvey, if you're gonna keep ignoring the fact that you didn't answer reply to what I

actually said

, naturally I'm gonna keep bringing this up.

[Raging Rabbit]

A big at Toaster Strudel's scumhunting technic. I'd like to hear what he thinks of all these fussy little words people keep insisting to write between one vote and the next. Also note I voted for Harvey like 4 posts above his.

[Raging Rabbit]

BM, if you'll read past post 300 you'll see why we think he's town. I don't see him as completely confirmed, though.

[Raging Rabbit]

Why not completely?

Because like Crazy himself said, there's a chance he's very clever scum who took a gambit and faked ignorance. Admittedly very unlikely, but enough for me to dislike calling him "confirmed".

@ RR, what are your thoughts about scum bus'ing each other right out of the garage depot?

Quite a cunning trap you got there. I think it's extremely unwise in this particular setup, since there's another scum team you can be suspected as part of. Both Fire and Ice attacked me for poor reasons, obvioulsy I can't tell you why. Does anything other than that make you think I was busing?

[Raging Rabbit]

I guess neko has it right, but acounting for RR's voting habits happens to be quite easy in this case - I was gone for a week and then voted Harvey, a few posts above the one where Toaster attacks me for not voting. Wouldn't it be easier for Darox to just mention this if we were scumpartners?

What does this sentence mean?

"since there's another scum team you can be suspected as part of"

Scumteams use busing because it makes the buser look innocent, since it's unlikely he'd attack a scumpartner. Here, however, we have two scumteams rather than one, so busing does a lot less to clear you - a werewolf who bused a buddy could still be easily suspected as part of the mafia, and vice versa. The gain is thus too small to make it a wise move here.

[Raging Rabbit]

While Adel has had a ton of influence in the past, in this instance I so far just see Adel agreeing with lover on a far fetched theory. The rest of the town has yet to follow, and I'll be very disappointed if they will. The "TS and I have over 10k posts" argument is complete and utter bs, by the way.

(Out of curiousity, Adel, who's your alt?)

[Raging Rabbit]

Did you just confess scum?

Yup, obviously only scum are disappointed at being lynched.

I dont get it. And me reading that far might be a long-shot, so if you can explain succinctly now, that'd be helpful.

I'd really prefer if you'll do us the favor of reading the entire game instead of hoping to get spoonfed.

BM, RagingRabbit is scum who hates to see confirmed townies and needs to instill doubt about their alignment.

You're getting paranoid. Crazy himself said he isn't completely confirmed, and I was the one who originally brought up the "Crazy can't be scum if he earnestly believed the DT tell" thing. BM is the one attacking him here.

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

Whatever we're most sure of.

Bus'ing is the intentional pushing for, or even leading, your buddies' lynch. A werewolf can't bus' a mafiate or vice-versa.

I know that, my point was that busing your werwolf buddy doesn't help much because even if it does make the town think you can't be a werewolf, you can still get lynched for being mafia if you act scummy. Busing your only partners for that not very substancial benefit is a folly.

RR's trying to get me to post less info on people definitely wasn't the towniest thing all game.

I wish you'd stop saying that the disagreement we have on how to best make your posts readable was me trying to get you to post less info.

[Raging Rabbit]

True, there's also almighty 10k game posts.

[Raging Rabbit]

We've already killed werewolves. Today, should we go after werewolves or mafia?

Whatever we're most sure of.

[Raging Rabbit]

I personally am not a werewolf, but assuming you meant "them" - a mixture of general scummy behavior and interaction with Fire & Ice, I suppose. You can see the way I work with this by rereading my case on cere & Harvey.

[Raging Rabbit]

Whatever, I'll entertain 'ya.

1. Early in the game Walt wanted to go after Adel, I figured since two other people acknowledged her scumtell she must be on to something that we're not seeing.
2. I thought Walt's "my lover needs to shave" post was a mistake, hinting at a claim too early. Walt said it was just a joke.
3. Walt suspected Crazy, after I brought up a defence on him said he was torn.
4. Walt figured since Adel and Crazy agreed about the existence of a secret scumtell in posts 45 minutes apart, they may be scumpartners. I didn't think so and said timing is irrelevant.
5. I suspected ThAdmiral, Walt had him at the bottom of his LoS. Both of us wanted to know the reasons for the other's opinion. Walt figured they seem to be working "alone together", and not as part of a group. I was irked by ThAdmiral's active lurking.
6. After my case on cere and Harvey, Walt said it was a great post but that he wasn't sure if they're scummier than dybeck/Ala. Also figured them for mafia instead of werewolves. I said that if they're mafia the passive distancing I saw from Fire & Ice would be a null tell. We still appear to disagree on this.
7. Walt said he didn't buy DBE's site error since other people posted at that time, I said it makes sense and happened to me as well. I suspect ThAdmiral/DBE because of Admiral and have a neutral read on darla, while Walt seems about the other way around.
8. Walt expressed outrage at not being sent a postcard from my trip.

But why focus on the negative? We have a good, healthy relationship, truely!

[Raging Rabbit]

Clarification for 1 - Walt figured that since both of us had no idea what the super secret scumtell could be, Adel must be making it up.

[Raging Rabbit]

We never discussed which faction we should go after in our DT, I didn't reread his game posts and don't reacall him saying that. No, I don't quite see what you're getting at here.

[Raging Rabbit]

Walt's posts may be a little hard to read because of his somewhat pissed off tone (and I certainly understand where that's coming from), but what he's trying to say is spot on.

Thanks RR! That was great!

Why didn't you mention his plan of pretending to go after werewolves that he presented in the thread?

Can you see why my vote is on you now?

Here I believe she's saying "Gotcha! You didn't disagree with Walt in your DT about him wanting to go after werewolves despite the fact that you yourself claimed to not care which faction we go after, thus Walt was surely only pretending to go after werewolves and is a werewolf himself! QED". This is completely worthless because:

posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:08 am Post subject: 23

I think we should be able to figure out who the other werewolves are out of those who didn't vote for them in the final lynch;

HarveyPew/Cerebus
Armix/Sleepy Panda
oppossedforce/Darox
adel/Pwnz

adel/pwnz both voted for them originally and adels case pretty much hung iceman in my opinion so I'm not really considering them. With Harvey Pew and Cerebus, again they seemed completely unaware that ice and fire were lovers and seemed ready to lynch fire. I am going to re-read OF/Dar and SP/Arm isolated to see if I see anything unordinary.

More later.

1. I'm for lynching whoever we're surest is scum, regardless of faction. Walt here says he thinks it easier for him to catch the werewolves, which he believes is one of the above four couples. Since this is his best read, how does this conflict with what I said exactly?
2. This was posted on September 2nd, when I was abroad. Even if I did disagree with this, how are we supposed to have a DT argument when I'm not even there?

[Raging Rabbit]

Vote Firestarter

, I think you're slightly more likely to use dice for the first time as scum.

This was your first post in the game. And Firestarter was scum. You're scum too, it's a rookie mistake I know, but I caught it. Bus'ing right out of the garage. That irrepressible instinct that scum has to immediately distance.

I think you're a werewolf.

Wahey!!!

First post in...

Ok...

Original Roll String: 1d23 (STATIC)

1 23-Sided Dice: (20) = 20

vote: Firestarter

for using dice.

If the random voting stage is truely random then it will not yield information. Why don't you want to risk making a pseudo-random vote that could yield information?

This is Adel's first post in the game. And Firestarter was scum. She's scum too, it's a rookie mistake but I caught it! She just couldn't fight the irrepressible instinct!



This case is based on nothing but Adel's lame trap, your repeated use of appeal to experience and a vote count analysis with a pregone conclusion.

[Raging Rabbit]

hmmm.... which one of us voted first??? and who followed and repeated the first voter's point?

It's actually not quite the same point,

always

using dice on your random vote is anti-town but not really a scumtell, quite a few people do this is a playstyle. After Fire said he chose to try this for the first time here, I figured he may have wanted a "truely" random vote rather than one that yields information

in this particular game

and is thus slightly more likely to be scum. Anyways, so what if my post came later? Do you seriously believe my vote (that's based on more than yours) is somehow a scumtell while yours isn't?


The way Harvey continues to bluntly deny the case on him makes me super happy with his lynch.

[Raging Rabbit]

TS, what do you make of cere/Harvey?

[Raging Rabbit]

Harvey, you're the leading candidate for a lynch by a longshot with less than 3 days to deadline. I'd expect you to actually comment on the things I said (which are most probably at least part of the reason others are voting you as well, and are not only related to you picking the wrong horses as you keep implying), rather than just say my case is "weak and reaching" which is about as good a defense as "I rubber, you glue".

I haven't forgotten about Admiral, he can wait a bit longer.

[Raging Rabbit]

Harvey, in case it wasn't obvious, I expected you to

explain

your actions rather than just repeat with more words the general statement that voting for the wrong person doesn't make you scum. From the top of my head:

1.

Why

did you suddenly feel you made a "mistake" about Fire? Didn't his odd vote for me look scummy anymore?
2.

Why

did you believe Iceman's slip was an innocent mistake?
3.

Why

do you think Crazy's confusion about his DT tell was made up?

[Raging Rabbit]

BM, have you read the whole game yet?

[Raging Rabbit]

People will take you more seriously when you're read through and see the same picture we see. Your case on Crazy is perceived as lacking because you don't have the same amount of info we have, and is thus ignored. If you want yourself heard you should acknowledge the reasons we think Crazy is innocent despite his odd behavior early in the game, but it appears you don't even know them yet.

[Raging Rabbit]

It's not a haysack, it's a game you chose to replace into and I believe it's every replacement's duty to first and foremost go through the trouble of reading the thread. There are some non Crazy-related stuff in there you may find important as well, you know.

[Raging Rabbit]

The game your playing jumped from around page 8 to page 50 something, you haven't seen all the evidence and it's not our job to fill the gaps for you.

[Raging Rabbit]

Dissapointing outcome, was pretty sure they're the last werewolves. I'm gonna do a LoS to sort some things out for myself.

List of lovers:

-Crazy & Knight of Cydonia
- starrie & Darox (replacing OF & wolf)
-Adel & TS
-Cephrir & charter
-neko & sekinj
-ClockworkRuse & BM (replacing Erratus Apathos & SSF)
-ThAdmiral & DBE
-Panda & armlx

(- Myself & Walt)

3 of these 8 (not counting myself) are scum, meaning I'm getting paranoid.

Very probably pro town:
Crazy & KoC - because of the whole D1 business
Panda & armlx - very strong pro town vibe from Panda

Probably pro town:
neko & sekinj - neko especially is playing a pro town game imo, though I have a gut feeling they could be mafia

Neutral:

Darox & starrie - unclear really, I need to reread them
Clockwork & BM - had a good vibe from EA, but ssf played oddly. BM is just being BM, I don't think his behavior thus far is really indicative of alignment


Scummy:

Charter & ceph - didn't like charter's play yesterday, I need to go back to their earlier play and see what I think
Adel & TS - Don't like how Adel's leading the town, the last minute switch to dbe d1 was iffy even if she did provide a good explanation, completely swayed d2's lynch (possibly that power is due to having 3 partners rather than 1), really didn't like the combined bs attack on me yesterday. pwnz was really anti town as well, but maybe it's just his playstyle. There's no way they're werewolves, but very possibly mafia.
ThAd & darla - darla hasn't done a thing all game and ThAd's actively making an active effort to stick to the backround, interesting mafia paring with Adel & TS there.

I'll reread when I have the time and hopefully come back with a case.

[Raging Rabbit]

Please... Every full LoS is bound to include the people you think are pro town. No idea why you pounce on me like that, other people did this earlier this game as well.

And I'd like you to go through the trouble of making a case, yes.

[Raging Rabbit]

Dude, RR had no access at the time. That's hardly active.

Reread charter and Ceph, I still find charter's play yesterday very scummy but other than that the only thing he did that caught my eye was pushing Crazy too hard d1, not sure that's enough to condemn him. And Ceph hasn't really done anything suspicious that I can see, so I don't find them particularly lynch-worthy. Will reread my other candidates soonish.

[Raging Rabbit]

Vote ThAdmiral

, for sticking to the backround, jumping on all four significant wagons for unconvincing reasons while not doing any other real scumhunting, and only putting actual effort into self preservation after Panda attacked him.

The vote analysis above I believe is an attempt to appear to be actively scumhunting without having to really commit himself to anything, thus he supplies us with dry neutral information.

[Raging Rabbit]

As for Crazy, I've stated my beliefs on him.

I think he is town but not 100% confirmed.

This.

That.

I support my DT posting if the mod doesn't object.

[Raging Rabbit]

I think the sooner we get the mass DT posting going the better, all this fussing around and waiting for full consensus is giving the scum too much time to make up something believable.

[Raging Rabbit]

This argument on Crazy is getting really redundant, what exactly are you guys trying to achieve? Everyone thinks he's town and he isn't getting lynched anytime soon, so I don't see the point in arguing semantics for so very long.

[Raging Rabbit]

We've already decided on all, as far as I can tell.

[Raging Rabbit]

I agree that we shouldn't comment about the daytalks 'till everyone's done posting theirs.

[Raging Rabbit]

Clockwork, could you take a break from rereading and paraphrase your daytalk?

[Raging Rabbit]

He isn't though, and the faster someone does that the quicker the game can continue. It's not like you need to be read through or have any opinions for that, it's just a matter of paraphrasing.

[Raging Rabbit]

Getting caught up should have nothing to do with paraphrasing DT, unless you're scum and need to make up a more believable fake one.

[Raging Rabbit]

Still waiting for BM/Clockwork and TS/Adel replacement.

[Raging Rabbit]

Unvote, vote charter.

As much as it pains me to give Admiral another break, Walt has me convinced.

[Raging Rabbit]

What armlx said. Especially since Clockwork posted said he wants to finish reading the thread before posting his daytalk, which makes no sense for town.

[Raging Rabbit]

Why shouldn't DT be considered a tell, again? I mean other than the fact you flaked it?

[Raging Rabbit]

Big FOS: TS

, for posting a one liner on charter (without even an explanation on what makes his extreme overagresivness a towntell, I consider it a scumtell personally) instead of daytalk.

[Raging Rabbit]

I don't see why people are blaming Crazy for TS's idiocity, what he did isn't a scumtell. Scum coudl've just PM'd the mod.

I want to take a look at Ceph's refined daytalk and see how believable it is before revoting, just to make sure, but it's very unlikely to change my mind. Charter really needs to die here.

[Raging Rabbit]

Vote charter

.

I agree with armlx, both charter and BM are pretty much auto-lynches in my mind, and I'd rather lynch charter first to shut him up and clear the thread.

[Raging Rabbit]

Agreed.

Lynching charter now will get the noise turned down, and enable us to discuss other things tomorrow as well as wait to hear some sort of defence from BM/CW/replacement(s). I also don't find him less scummy than them, at least with Clockwork there's a chance he was just being lazy and doesn't care.

I also still want Admiral lynched, but all in good time I supoose.

[Raging Rabbit]

An exlanation would be nice.

[Raging Rabbit]

The more you go on talking instead of posting your DT, the more I want to lynch you.

[Raging Rabbit]

You mean you don't already want to lynch him as much as you possibly could...?

I'm still somewhat interested in seeing their daytalk and some sort of defense, the continued lack of both makes the small chance for them to be townies smaller and smaller in my mind.

[Raging Rabbit]

How about both him and CWR refusing to paraphrase daytalk?

[Raging Rabbit]

...Which is exactly why I can't see how you got that feeling, DGB said she suspects myself and Panda/armlx. Paranoid much?

[Raging Rabbit]

charter - *sigh*

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly. The way you seem content to just say empty stuff like "BM is huggable" makes it look like you're scum who's just out for townie credit if they turn town. If charter wasn't so very scummy I'd reconsider my vote, but anyways, a more coherent explanation would be nice at this point.

[Raging Rabbit]

Darox suddenly forgetting the case on charter is extremely weird.

I support auto lynching BM/CWR if CWR's replacement's first and quick post isn't a full paraphrase of their daytalk.

[Raging Rabbit]

1. What's BM's scuminess got to do with my own?
2. Doesn't his and CWR's refusal to post DT count for anything?
3. What makes you think the frustration in charter's tone can only come from townies?
4. In your daytalk, did you explain your reasoning more in detail and convinced Darox to follow your lead?
5. Why am I scum?
6. Why is armlx scum?
7. Why do you keep not explaining yourself?

[Raging Rabbit]

1. What's BM's scuminess got to do with my own?

2. Doesn't his and CWR's refusal to post DT count for anything?

3. What makes you think the frustration in charter's tone can only come from townies?

4. In your daytalk, did you explain your reasoning more in detail and convinced Darox to follow your lead?
5. Why am I scum?
6. Why is armlx scum?
7. Why do you keep not explaining yourself?

Bolding mine.

Why do you like asking loaded questions?

What's loaded about them? Words "refusal" and "frustration" are clearly warranted here, I don't think even DGB would argue about that.

charter, have you ever even made a case against armlx and/or myself that isn't just repeating that we're scum ad-infinitum? Other than vote you, what do you actually think we've done that's scummy?

[Raging Rabbit]

The only real case made on me was Adel and TS's, which was revealed in their DT to be nothing but werewolf bait. There's no case for you to agree with, therefore I belive your "scumhunting" is insincere and you just pulled that excuse for the OMGUS attack on me out of nowhere.

[Raging Rabbit]

What they said. Also her saying she thinks BM is town despite his constant refusal to post daytalk warrants asking about it.

[Raging Rabbit]

A big at page 83.

Not convinced by BM's daytalk at all, am contemplating switching to them but would still rather give them the time to say a bit more than give it to charter who's gone manic. BM, post times asap.

I think I might have had a pro town read on ceph if charter wasn't so completely scum.

[Raging Rabbit]

Um, why exactly are you voting Crazy? Any thoughts on charter and ceph?

[Raging Rabbit]

I don't think Crazy is confirmed, but I think he's probably town. Do you seriously think the above is the best case out there?

To be honest no. But I don't really like the other two options either.

Why not?
Why is it a scumtell that everyone thinks Crazy's town, are you saying we're

all

his partners? Do you really think he deserves to be lynched for alerting the mod on foul play?

BM, what do you think of charter?

[Raging Rabbit]

cephrir. Are you even reading the game?

[Raging Rabbit]

I don't think the times are much of a tell, however Walt's points about BM's contrived daytalk are spot on. What with his constant refusal to read the game, actually explain his absurd suspicion of Crazy, and post daytalk, along with the unconvincing paraphrase he eventually suplied us with, I consider him about as confirmed scum as charter if not moreso. I was willing to give it a rest in the beginning becuase of him being BM an' all, but this is just too much. CWR makes them look even worse. The only margin of error requires them both to be lazy and assinine to such an incredible amount, I believe it's extremely slim.

I was hoping that lynching charter first will give them the time to try to defend themselves properly, but I guess they've basically said all they're going to and with their DT being so flawed I don't much care. As for charter, there's always tomorrow.

(They're also obviously gonna be today's lynch regardless of what I do, so no harm speeding up things a bit).

Unvote, RAGE, vote battle mage

.

[Raging Rabbit]

Yay!

I'm unlikely to vote anyone but charter, but I feel I owe this game some sort of a reread. My read on too many people is getting fuzzy. Starting on in now.

[Raging Rabbit]

I reread the first 20 pages, very strong town vibe from Crazy (would have to be a genious actor to pull off such a stunt as scum) as well as sej/Neko, and to a lesser extent Panda and OpposedForce (Darox). Charter opposed massclaim, pushed extra hard on Crazy and then moved to Ice when his death started looking inevitable. ThAd was just as useless then as he is now, I'm franktly surprised he's lurked his way to day 6 with such relative ease.

I don't see a lot of merit in the mod's first post as a tell, especially after he 'bitch slapped' the theory. Also the excel discussion is pretty redundant. What's much more of a tell is charter excluding posts from his paraphrase and not posting the times, but people seem to have forgotten about that just because it's been a while.

Vote charter

.

[Raging Rabbit]

I sorta agree with Ceph here, this should be left alone. I'm not gonna let Microsoft decide the lynch.

[Raging Rabbit]

I reread the first 20 pages, very strong town vibe from Crazy (would have to be a genious actor to pull off such a stunt as scum) as well as sej/Neko, and to a lesser extent Panda and OpposedForce (Darox). Charter opposed massclaim, pushed extra hard on Crazy and then moved to Ice when his death started looking inevitable. ThAd was just as useless then as he is now, I'm franktly surprised he's lurked his way to day 6 with such relative ease.

I don't see a lot of merit in the mod's first post as a tell, especially after he 'bitch slapped' the theory. Also the excel discussion is pretty redundant. What's much more of a tell is charter excluding posts from his paraphrase and not posting the times, but people seem to have forgotten about that just because it's been a while.

Vote charter

.

So I am curious, you claim the ThAd is useless and you are surprised he has been able to lurk his way to day 6, yet Neko only has 46 posts, less then ThAd and yet you have not stated that you think he is useless and why you are surprised how he has been able to lurk his way to day 6?

It's a matter of quality over quantity. I think neko has overall been making sense and appear to be earnestly scumhunting, even if he hasn't said that much, while the majority of ThAd's post are close to useless one-liners.

[Raging Rabbit]

armlx - There's also the unmatching number of posts because charter "left out some off topic ones". And scummy d1 behavior, and going after everything that moved d3 (iirc). I just don't get how OMGUSing the shit out of everyone voting him somehow took him almost off the limelight like that.

For the record, I'm not convinced by Walt's case, nor do a recall a case against Panda/armlx by charter that wasn't pure OMGUS.

[Raging Rabbit]

What I don't like about charter/ceph is how they try to get anyone but themselves lynched...

Really? Don't think mine or ceph's vote has been on anyone but scum or armlx/SP (also scum) for a very long time. It was on you momentarily, per the logic I already cited, but then we changed it to where it actually belongs.

Actually ceph was voting BM, and you've done your share of attacking me, spent the entire early game locked on Crazy, and I'm sure would move your vote to anyone else in the game as long as it diverts attention.

[Raging Rabbit]

Oh, wasn't BM scum? Yes I believe that falls under the we've been voting scum part of my statement. Good try though RR.

True, I missed the word 'scum' in that post. Nice job ignoring the rest of what I said though, you've shown willingness to attack anyone but yourselves. I also think you're more likely werewolves, so lynching BM was probably all the same to you.

This is actually quite sad. Opinions are extremely important, so what if we throw our opinions out there? That's how mafia is played.

What he said was that it isn't a proper case, which includes more than just opinions.

[Raging Rabbit]

You are clearly the master of taking the parts easiest to disprove and ignoring the rest. Other than your unvote on Sej, I think Knight is spot on there.

[Raging Rabbit]

Sej? is that me? interesting apprev, but I'll take it

I'm having trouble remembering the exact spelling, so I went with what rang best.

[Raging Rabbit]

You're both going into an infinite circle discussion. I think it's quite obvious at this point that Walt has said all he's going to about charter/Ceph's case, so I don't see what you think the continuing questioning of it is achieving, Panda.

The more you hold onto opinions, citing them as legitmate reasons, to try and get us lynched is only convincing me that you are indeed the

other

scum pair.

I guess it's possible you cosider charter completely confirmed scum, but that sentence still doesn't sit too well with me.

[Raging Rabbit]

He's the person who I'm most sure is scum. I have no reason to think otherwise.

Are you telling me you are voting charter when you have doubts whether or not he's actually scum? If you have doubts, I'd like to hear them.

He's my best suspect as well, by far, and I'd really like to finally see him lynched. That does not mean I'm sure enough to auto-assume he's scum before I see the results, being 100% sure of anything in a setup with no power roles is never the right move.

Actually I think it's pretty clear that charter and I are not mafia. My bussing of BM yesterday would have, from my perspective at the time, been complete suicide.

I like how armlx + SP + sekinj = almost everyone who wants to lynch us today.

Also, SP is such frustrated scum. I kinda feel bad because his points actually make a lot of sense

Not a singe one of these sentences makes any sense.

[Raging Rabbit]

While I disagree with Walt's case, I'm starting to dislike how Panda keeps using a patronizing tone that's goading him on. This back and forth stopped being informative a long time ago and is now just an absurd lash out.

[Raging Rabbit]

I never called him confirmed scum. I never called you confirmed scum either. I was making an educated guess.

The way you seem to be looking for the

other

scum pair now implies

knowing

who one scumpair is, imo.

I disagree that it is not informative. Some bits might be irrelavent, but I'm able to get a better read than I would if he stopped talking.

You seem to just want him to stop talking altogether. What for? What else is on the table now that needs discussion? Do we all have such a one-track mind that we can only have one discussion going at a time?

I'd rather go back to discuss things that have any sort of value rather than watch you two have a pissing contest. None of your responses to Walt in this post go anywhere near anything actually relevant.

[Raging Rabbit]

Who else was on two townie wagons so far? RR, ThAdmiral and oh, your lover Cephrir. This must be undeniable fact that you two are scum.

Actually I was on only one town wagon, Harvey's.

Darox/DGB have gone real quiet, I've got a feeling either them or ThAd/DBE are scum that's having fun sitting back and watching us attack each other.

Crazy - what about the mod specifically saying timestamps have nothing to do with alignment? Also, if you believe it to be true, why sej/neko rather than armlx/Panda? Both are proven scum if we were to believe it, since everyone but them have the 'townie' first post timestamp.

[Raging Rabbit]

Actually SP, me and ceph's combined on town and on scum votes are about 50% each way. Undeniable proof that we don't care which scum gets lynched because we are town.

lol.

[Raging Rabbit]

And according to this theory, who else could be Iceman's partner other than armlx?

[Raging Rabbit]

Why would all townies possibly have the same timestamp except for one pair?

And I pretty much agree with Knight there.

[Raging Rabbit]

Silly me, I thought we were lynching people based on scuminess...

[Raging Rabbit]

Your own lover doesn't, alone with Walt who came up with the timestamps thing and generally most of the people in this game. Stop with this 'anybody' BS.

Why do you find her scummy? Also, doesn't Destructer going out of his way to say that timestamps don't matter count anything?

[Raging Rabbit]

Your own lover doesn't, alone with Walt who came up with the timestamps thing and generally most of the people in this game. Stop with this 'anybody' BS.

Why do you find her scummy? Also, doesn't Destructer going out of his way to say that timestamps don't matter count anything?

You fail.

Explain how sekinj could possibly have the same timestamp as BM. If you can come with a

probable

reason, then I will withdraw my case?

Can't? Hmph.

Alright, here's one that makes perfect sense. SP and sekinj are the only ones that replaced people who signed up to play right off the bat (along with Adel, but we don't know what timestamp she got). The mod simply took a little longer to check who signed up to replace and title their forum appropriately. BM lied. I'd much rather believe it was him than the mod.

[Raging Rabbit]

No, this fails. For one, neko and sekinj have an earlier timestamp than most players, not later.

And if BM was going to be bothered to lie, don't you think he'd at least lie and say 10:07?

Ok, so say he checked who they were and posted their DT earlier, then took and a shower and posted in everyone else's. It's not like scum opening post has to be phrased any differently than town's, so he could probably just copy-paste the same message for scum as well as town if he wanted to. BM could've chosen a random player to copy from, or figure out the tell and use it to get an innocent lynched in the future. Again, who's more likely to lie - a player or the *mod*?

[Raging Rabbit]

Can't believe charter is getting away again. All of his scumtells are no more opinion than having different timestamps

meaning anything

is. This whole game is based on opinions. The mod specifically said timestamps mean nothing. Why not lynch the scummiest player?

[Raging Rabbit]

armlx's lynch tests the theory just as well as sekinj's. I'd rather lynch the scummiest player, though.

I like how Darox completely disappeared until his lover stated posting again. Also, darla needs to either post or be replaced asap.

[Raging Rabbit]

I fail to see the difference. Either having a different timestamp means you're scum, or it doesn't.

[Raging Rabbit]

If townies and scum have distinctive timestamps, both have to be scum. If there's no indication, like the mod said, it doesn't matter for both. No, I don't see a difference.

[Raging Rabbit]

Can we hear that other case you had on armlx/SP that convinced Darox so well now?

[Raging Rabbit]

You do if that person is acting scummy as hell and is everyone's top suspect. Tons of reasons why you're scummy have been provided, DGB has yet to show why she thinks they don't apply.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'd restate all the reasons why charter is scummy as hell, but I don't think it'd help any. This 6-6 with Crazy leaning towards SP looks like a deadlock to me. Would still really like to hear from DGB about her mysterious case, and hopefully DBE will be replaced before deadline.

[Raging Rabbit]

But I'm sure the same people who would say this are also voting us based on the timestamps theory, which would imply that we are not mafia, but werewolves.

That theory clearly implies you're mafia (same timestamp as BM), no idea where you're getting this from.

If we are lynched, I'm still recommending everyone look at charter/Ceph pair. Besides them, the most likely scum pair I believe are WWB/RR or sekinj/neko, and possibly Darox/DGB for how they've played recently.

That's everyone but lurkers ThAd/Darla. Not too keen.

[Raging Rabbit]

You're right, confused you with Sej/neko. Apologies.

We've had our share of (poorly based) attacks, both from Adel/DGB and charter. Do you think not being attacked 'enough' is in any way a scumtell?

[Raging Rabbit]

Why did you take a look at charter if you thought he was your lover and thus (supposedly) guaranteed pro town?

Yes, we claimed. The pairs are:

Charter & Cephrir
armlx & Sleepy Panda
sekinj & neko
Crazy & Knight of Cydonia
WaltWishbone & Raging Rabbit
Darox & DGB
Admiral & Xtoxm

[Raging Rabbit]

Yup. Today's essentially a choice between charter and SP, making up your mind quickly could save us a lot of time. You should have a full picture before deciding, though, how much did you read so far?[/reverse]

[Raging Rabbit]

Your lover isn't exactly paying the closest attention himself. Even if you can't read the entire game, I think you ought to do more than skim 10 pages of it.

[Raging Rabbit]

I understand that, but you still need at least a basic understanding of the context of what's being talked about to be able to start your directly playing.

[Raging Rabbit]

Walt first explains it at the last post of page 85, that would be a good place to start if you want a full picture of the timestamp discussion.

[Raging Rabbit]

That was a bad move. While on the one hand it does save us a week since with Xtoxm not thinking charter is scum the lynch essentially can't go any other way, on the other DGB and Darox still had a lot of explaining to do and hammering someone to test a theory you're not sure you believe in without reading the rest of the game certainly isn't brilliant.

Also, that's the third time charter somehow avoids a lynch.

[Raging Rabbit]

It's not like there's anything important to be said, it's a vanilla nightless...

So? There's still value in getting this feedback from DGB before we know armlx's alignment.

[Raging Rabbit]

I suspect you not using this post to finally explain your case.

FOS: DGB

.

[Raging Rabbit]

Not much fun to win like this, but after such results I see no reason not to test the theory further.

Vote Sekinj

.

[Raging Rabbit]

This win does feel a little sore, but it was a great game nonetheless.

The setup is imo very well balanced, no need to change it in any way except disallowing the quoting of timestamps off course. I loved there being no nights and the game being (in theory) based on pure scumhunting, adding a night phase would defenitely hurt this and the numbers are just fine. Excellent design, Adel.

I was strongly biased against the timestamp tell since it made everything so much less interesting, and that coupled with my pro town read on both scumpairs in addition to the mod specifically saying it wasn't true (which I don't think was good move, a mod should never lie to the town) convinced me to ignore it. Obviously not a good call in hindsight.

The dealine policy was excellent, I'd keep it this way in any large game. The game could otherwise turn into a monster and everyone would have trouble staying focused. Activity requirements are good too, though something needs to be done to prevent people from posting one liners once in a while and dissapearing again.

I'm ok with posting our daytalk.

Props to destructor for being an awesome mod overall, this game was really well managed, and also to armlx/Panda and Sekinj/neko who played brillitantly and I honestly think were likely to win if it wasn't for TimeStamp. And off course to Walt (did I mention he's my lover? ) for winning us the game.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with the balance as it is, keep in mind that a full one third of of the players are scum d1, which gives them tons of voting power. Being split into two faction makes a difference, but I still estimate the win percentage to be something around 50-25-25%. Picking the two most pro town looking couples and lynching their way to endgame doesn't guarantee a town win at all, in fact I'm almost sure one of the scum pairs would've been selected if we were to decide to use this strategy without the timestamp tell. A single pair that does a good job looking pro town can very possibly win this imo, especially after a well coordinated bus.

The daytalking was pretty useful and definitely added fun to the game, I enjoyed being able the converse with Walt the danger of anything we say being used to lynch us, and enjoyed gaining insight into how he thought about things.