Open 86 - Lovers Multiball (Game Over)

[SleepyPanda]

Pancake bunny!

Vote: Raging Rabbit

[SleepyPanda]

Waiting until later on to massclaim sounds good to me.

OpposedForce, curiosity killed the cat. Why still ask when told not to?

Unvote, Vote: OpposedForce

[SleepyPanda]

because it would invalidate the secret scumtell I have that

I won't announce

until we have three days on the books without a lover-pair massclaim.

Blame what OF did as carelessness? This was the only post of Adel's that she mentions her secret scumtell, and in the same sentence, she says she won't say what it is. To me, it looked like he was fishing for an answer from other players instead.

[SleepyPanda]

This scumtell discussion is just silly. Does knowing the scumtell make you less scummy? I don't know what it is, does that mean I'm scum? We have two people arguing that they know what the scumtell is and that the other is pretending to know, but they can't say it or it ruins it, so they can't prove if they know it or not. You're not getting anywhere.

Iceman, why are you talking about role PMs and saying that unless Crazy got a special message, he doesn't know what the scumtell is? There's no other way for Crazy to know what the scumtell is?

Crazy, how are you so sure that Adel is town? There are two scum factions. It's not possible for her to be in one and try to eliminate the other? How do you go from pushing for massclaim, then when Adel mentions the words "secret scumtell", you immediately know what she's talking about and go along with her?

[SleepyPanda]

@crazy: don't like the self vote/talk of suicide. It's bad enough in a normal game, but if you really are town you are dragging down a partner with you.
I also don't like the seeming last ditch effort to get iceman to reveal his tell (post 256).

vote: crazy

I agree with Admiral here. The self-vote is what confuses me most.

In another game I was in with Crazy, he criticizes someone for self-voting and says how anti-town that move is, but here he's doing the exact same thing. In that same game, he was the leading candidate for the lynch and he uses the defense that if he were actually scum, would he be fighting so hard to stay alive? In that game, he was of town alignment. Here, he's doing the exact opposite by voting for himself and basically giving up.

Crazy, you're also saying that it wouldn't be fair to farside if you get lynched since she's your lover, but a few posts later, you vote yourself. Does that make it more fair? You then go on to ask, retorically I assume, if you can quote mod PMs to get yourself lynched faster. I'm almost certain you already understand that if you are of town alignment, doing things like this doesn't help you or the town in any way, so it makes absolutely no sense to me why you're doing so.

Unvote, Vote: Crazy

Regarding farside, she agrees with Crazy on massclaim, votes iceman together, uses chainsaw defense on OF (even when Crazy said it sucks) when OF votes Crazy. I understand they're lovers, but they're almost in complete agreement with each other on everything. That seems more like scum play to me. Even if you're paired as lovers, I'd expect to see some conflict of opinion. Maybe it's just coincidence and they really are meant for each other, but I'm leaning towards the former.

[SleepyPanda]

In another game I was in with Crazy, he criticizes someone for self-voting and says how anti-town that move is, but here he's doing the exact same thing. In that same game, he was the leading candidate for the lynch and he uses the defense that if he were actually scum, would he be fighting so hard to stay alive? In that game, he was of town alignment. Here, he's doing the exact opposite by voting for himself and basically giving up.

You're taking that way out of context. That game was in lylo. And besides, it's still ongoing, you know, and the

person I was accusing is still alive in the game!

My self-vote was due to immense frustration. Nhat's wasn't.

Meh, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it since it's still ongoing, but I was making observations on only your play. Everything I've mentioned has already happened so I don't see how it would affect current gameplay.

Still, just to be on the safe side, ignore the points when I reference another game in my last post. My vote for Crazy is because of the self-vote and the farside paragraph still stands.

[SleepyPanda]

Picking up prod. Sorry, been a bit busy.

A couple notable things have happened. Firstly, what happened between Fire and RR.

If I choose to believe he honestly thought he had a secret tell, he pretty much has to be town since scum would know that they have a daytalking forum as well as town and would thus not think there's anything secret about it or that it's a scumtell.

If he's town, he knows that he has a daytalk. The game is also nightless. Why would he come to the conclusion that with a nightless game and town having a daytalk, that scum would not? Was he expecting that scum would have to PM each other separately, amongst 4 people, no less? Townies of 2 get daytalk, but a group of 4 does not? Honestly, it seems pretty illogical from both town and scum point of view to believe that was a scumtell. However, I do agree that it does seem like a risky move if he was scum to make up a tell and go with it for so long. For now, I'll unvote Crazy. Some of his behavior has been undeniably scummy, but I can sort of understand that it was due to being frustrated. Also, it seems there are bigger fish.

Unvote: Vote: Raging Rabbit

With Crazy & Farside claimed lovers. you seem to be defending them more than anything else... You give plenty of reasons to vote Crazy in your posts, yet at the end of several you say your happy with where your vote is... please explain?

This is post completely contradicts itself. RR is defending Crazy+Farside "more than anything" and at the same time gives plenty of reasons to vote Crazy? RR has been pointing out Crazy's scummy behavior, but RR believes that if Crazy believed (hope you're still with me) in his scumtell, then he would be town. I don't completely agree with that, but RR does, and if so, it explains why he hasn't voted Crazy. When Adel points this post out, Fire starts backtracking, saying that it was purely to test reaction. His following slew of posts after are of him mostly quoting himself and avoiding questions. Even if his vote was to test reaction, he has clearly not read RR's posts. To me, it seemed like he just got caught.

---

wow, four pages a day.

Don't have time to read but I know I have to...

unvote

vote: crazy

unvote

Why?

---

Regarding iceman, I don't really see the case on him. These are his two posts which everyone seems to focus on.

Additionally, crazy, unless you received some kind of special message after your role PM, the generic townie PM is available for all to see on the first page of this thread. It's the PM is received, so unless you got something extra, you're full of crap. Please vote and eliminate crazy-scum, it's clear now he's full of shite.

He never said anything about it being in a PM about a secret scum tell. Where are you getting this from? Voting patterns wasn't the only thing that is a secret scum tell in this game. There is a second part.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

When I first read 164, I was confused on what he meant by "special message". I had assumed that he was being sarcastic as he was arguing with Crazy that town gets the exact same messages. Even if he was scum, he would've known that town had daytalks. In post 164, he directly references the role PMs posted at the beginning, which include a line about quicktopics:

You may daytalk with your Lover here: [link to quicktopic]

Also, post 4 from the mod:

I've added daytalking to the setup and

will be PMing everyone links to quicktopics.

Also, note that I've amended rules 1 and 12.

Unless he did a Crazy (kekeke) and had selective reading, I don't see how he would've miss this as well.

If you could quote where I said I didn't know townies got a day-talk forum, I'll love you forever.

I asked Crazy if he got some sort of SPECIAL INFORMATION after his role PM, not the link to his daytalk forum. The link to the daytalk forum isn't SPECIAL INFORMATION because EVERYONE GOT IT. I pointed out after looking over the role PMs that the scum and werewolf PM's say "team" instead of "lover." You're either misreading or, as I've said, just making things up.

This post makes sense to me. It explains that he was referring to

additional

information to what everyone already received, albeit asking this isn't very logical to begin with as I don't know what he's hoping to get for an answer.

Firestarter is still my top scum candidate. Fire's last post says he was waiting for RR to respond, which he has, yet still hasn't moved his vote or give his thoughts on RR's response.

Unvote; Vote: Firestarter

[SleepyPanda]

Why?

Because my vote was the 9th and ThAdmiral's vote was the 10th, that's why.

Not following you. The 10th vote would be L-3. What's your point?

[SleepyPanda]

I think by now it should be clear that Firestarter

(now OP)

is my lover. His fabrication of that case was an attempt to derail the wagon growing on me - yes, it was poorly planned and executed, but I requested that he attempt to pull a few votes off of me - sadly, instead of backing my case on Crazy, as we discussed, he decided to start an entirely new wagon.

What's OP mean? Is that like V/LA or something?

Well I guess that works out. I'm happy to switch my vote to iceman if Fire is his partner. I'll leave it at L-2 in case anyone isn't paying attention and drops hammer.

[SleepyPanda]

Ah, I missed page 19 on my reread. Fire is still on the vote count though. x.x

[SleepyPanda]

This lynch has all the hallmarks of a lazy lynch by a town that has closed its mind to other options.

If you're town and you feel this way, why not point out other options?

"I think he's scum" doesn't

mean

anything. It should be obvious. It's not really a reason because it should apply to everyone you want to lynch. But by having it as an entirely separate reason, you've drawn attention to that obvious fact, something which I think is the behavior of scum attacking a scum non-buddy.

This is REALLY desperate and contrived.

unvote, vote: somestrangeflea

Are you saying this is where we should be focused on? A vote you placed because of one post? After you voted him, you have directed no additional questions towards flea. This is better than the cases people have built on Fire or iceman?

[SleepyPanda]

The test of this is easy. If you're right about your lynch choice, who will you attack tomorrow? If you don't have an answer, it's too early to end the day, because you haven't got enough information from today.

Oh, but I do. If Fire/ice (fire and ice, hurhur) do flip scum, I've already noted a couple people down as I done my reread.

I strongly suspect that the answer from most people, if Fire/Ice are scum, will now be 'Let's attack Dybeck tomorrow' but meh. There's a vast majority of people in this town from whom you have no kind of reading. And that's because too much attention is being pointed in a single direction.

I've made this speech too many times before, and usually end up getting lynched for it but, hey, maybe that's my lot in life.

And yes, you're right, I've been lazy this game too. The time for this speech was probably not so late in the day when, of course, it just smacks of trying to derail a scum bandwagon.

In most of this post, it looks like you're already making assumptions that Fire/ice IS a scum wagon. The jist I got from your previous post implied that you felt the town was looking in the wrong direction. You're right though, about not having enough information on some people. I still don't know where you stand as you haven't given your opinion on either wagons.

[SleepyPanda]

For the record, then, I may as well go on record as pointing out that both your bandwagons are baseless and I suspect the wheels will fall off as soon as somebody does something genuinely scummy.

Panda: I think I stated my standpoint on the wagons pretty clearly.

Hum, I'm sorry that I missed that one line. Again, if you feel that way, why not provide counter-arguements if that is how you feel? Why have you not been more vocal about looking at other avenues? I know that you've requested replacement, but you still seem quite active, giving your opinion of how poorly we're doing instead of actual scum-hunting.

[SleepyPanda]

12. Each Day will have a non-retractable 2 week deadline.

[SleepyPanda]

I'm not particularly suspicious of Darla's L-1 vote. I still think there's no reason to hammer before the deadline though. Some questions:

ThAdmiral, I can see your point of view, but I can also see that it wrong. Is looking at other options such a bad thing?

It's not, but dybeck has not been doing such. He placed a vote on SSF, then basically done nothing since. When asked, he had no other options to look into, besides pointing fingers at the lurkers. This behavior makes you think he's more likely town?

Finally caught up and had a wonderful nice post on why Iceman was scum and the damn site glitched, said bandwith was expired or something

I lost my post,

unvote; vote Iceman

will try to recreate the post asap!

Like charter has been asking, what happened to your reread on SSF? What made you suspicious of him in the first place? What are your thoughts on dybeck?

I like the Darla vote.

Like the vote but aren't switching? Why are you so eager for Darla's reread of SSF? What made you suspicious of SSF? Thoughts on dybeck?

I mostly agree with RR on that post (551). dybeck could so easily be setting up a "I told you so" Day 2. I also don't like being called a lazy town when it's not like dybeck has contributed half as much as other people. I'm not fond of hypocrites.

QFT.

[SleepyPanda]

Vote: Cerebus

Massclaim

Ice and Cerebus have used a couple of the same arguments against Crazy which were strikingly similar. I'm quoting the entire posts for clarity's sake. The bolding is the main focus.

IcemanE is fitting with my townie read on him I have at the moment. Still tentative though.

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is.

If there even

is

one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

vote: crazy

PANDA, IT IS SOMETHING THAT ONLY TOWNIES WOULD KNOW!!! I can't say anything more without revealing what it is. Not all townies might catch it, but THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT SCUM WOULD KNOW WHAT IT IS.

This is straight BS. Townies are LESS informed than scum. How could they possibly have info that scum does not?

If you want me to, I'll reveal what I believe the "secret tell" is - it's hardly a secret, it's something both scum and town could easily figure out if they thought about it for a minute, so knowing the tell does not prove either way that you're town or scum - that's the main problem I have with crazy's crazy bull. Like I have said many many times, unless crazy recieved some sort of special information the rest of us missed, there's not a game-specific "secret tell". The one I'm thinking of could exist in any game of this type. Additionally, it's not an unbeatable, bulletproof tell - it's as valuable as any other, and just as breakable.

Crazy's defense of "keep me alive until at least day 3 so you can see my secret" is trash. Also, the fact that he unvoted me just a few short posts after he said:

I am about 90% sure Adel is town. I am about equally sure Iceman is scum.

is ridiculous.

I think it's worth losing farside (who from my evaluation hasn't done anything awesomely protown or horrifically scummy) to lynch Crazy, who is quite clearly scum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont think crazy knows what the scum tell is. If there even is one, this game is open, so town have no information the scum don't.

That is incredibly not true.

The difference between townies and scum comes from the role PM they receive at the beginning of the game. As I said, unless the rest of the townies got some special message that I didn't, the tell is based on voting patterns.

Or, as you state, it's possible I am thinking of something different. Regardless, the tell I'm thinking of is only possible if the mass-claim doesn't happen for a few days, so I think what I've got in mind is accurate.

This post is crap. Those two paragraphs couldn't conflict with each other more. Wouldn't you think maybe I'm thinking of the same thing you mentioned in YOUR SECOND PARAGRAPH? And you're still voting me?

How can town think of that and not scum again?

Aww crap, I don't want to get lynched because that means that farside has to die, too, and that's not really fair to her.

And I don't want to get replaced, because then if the town wins then I don't win with them.

So the only option is thus to mega-lurk and post one-liners every 2 days.

See ya.

This is not what a member of the town says when they think they're going to be lynched.

Especially not when they're still 4 votes away from said lynch.

I'll amend my previous statement to say that if the

town

wants me to I'll talk about the scumtell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Cerebus goes on to agree with Neko and votes Fire here:

unvote; vote: firestarter

First, I don't see how RR has done much different than I've done, or others. Clearly, Crazy has acted scummy. Logically, however, it doesn't add up for Crazy to be scum, all things considered (see my last posts for reasons). So why, then, would it be scummy to acknowledge somebody's scumminess but not vote them because the argument for them being town is much stronger? (whew)

Additionally, you're attacking RR for defending somebody who you believe is town when, looking at the votecount, it clearly wasn't popular to do so.

And, the quoting of Adel's call for other bandwagons while saying you're not trying to make a case... I'm also wondering what the point of your vote is, as you're sending very mixed messages.

I think me and neko are on the same wavelength. I was gonna say that!

unvote, vote: firestarter

Continuing to push a wagon when the wagon is proven false is pretty weird.

But this is his next post:

I see where IcemanE is coming from. I mean, what started the firestarter wagon?

He agrees with ice and expresses doubt of the Fire wagon, yet doesn't move his vote.

I read through, but I don't really have much to say.

I think the firestarter/IcemanE lynch is the right move.

Darla putting IcemanE at L-1 while conversation is still going strong is noted.

I see what erratus is saying about Alabaska.

Anything else I forgot about that people want me to comment on?

This was his last post before deadline hit. After with agreeing with iceman almost the entire game, he decides that his lynch is the right move.

[SleepyPanda]

Also, I think ThAdmiral is intentionally flying under the radar. IGMEOY.

Also, he is not paying attention, as he voted dybeck who is no longer with us.


I don't think we need a massclaim yet. I think Adel is just trying to see how many people she can get to follow her. Yesterday mostly everybody agreed that waiting to massclaim for a few days was the best plan, now suddenly Adel changes her mind and there's a wave of massclaim requests.

So you don't want to massclaim just to not go along with Adel? You were FOR massclaiming at the start of Day 1. I assumed you switched to against because of Adel's scumtell which she said would be better after a few days. Do you believe she doesn't have a scumtell anymore? What is your reason now for not wanting to massclaim?

[SleepyPanda]

Also, Crazy, can you summarize and explain again how you thought your scumtell had any chance of working? I have read your posts regarding it several times and I don't get how you thought it could work.

Okay, here it goes:

I didn't know that the daytalk thingies were on the front page. Thus, I didn't know that scum had daytalk, too. So I was planning on waiting for a while and then having everyone mass-post their daytalk. We lynch the people that have less believable daytalk.

It still makes no sense to me why you'd come up with that assumption.

Crazy, pretty sure daytalk is going to be irrelevant now. After pointing out how iceman's was obviously not pro-town, scum are going to put more effort into forging it.

Also, is there any scenario where I'm not scum in your head? And what were the reasons you were suspicious of me again?

Need to discuss with my lover before voting.

I'd like to hear your case on SSF btw. Yesterday, you said you were willing to go for his lynch if possible. The only time you mention him is when you ask for DBE's reread and that you think he's scum.

[SleepyPanda]

I severely doubt Adel is scum. That would mean this whole "secret scumtell" is bull, which can't be, because I think I know what he's talking about...

Probably from this? He didn't need to understand what you or Adel was talking about with the scumtell. You're saying you don't think Adel is scum. Which means she has to be town.

[SleepyPanda]

@689: Oh noes, someone had a similar stance as scum, he must be scum as well! What about the other 10 people on the crazy wagon?

He agrees with ice and expresses doubt of the Fire wagon, yet doesn't move his vote.

How does that come across as me doubting the Fire wagon? I was supporting what IcemanE said, not doubting the fire wagon. I was saying that what IcemanE had pointed out was similar to what started the fire wagon, so I didn't think it was completely baseless.

Also, for the record, do you think I am IcemanE's scum buddy or on the other scum team? Because your pointing out my similar stance as IcemanE wants to say I am his buddy, but that doesn't fit with me "doubting the fire wagon" yet keeping my vote there, which would indicate me being on the other scum team. You can't have it both ways.

This was was you showing doubt of the Fire wagon.

I see where IcemanE is coming from. I mean, what started the firestarter wagon?

You're asking what started the fire wagon when you were on it. Does that make a lot of sense? It looks your vote on Fire at first was a distancing attempt and your quote above was an out to allow yourself to backtrack.

I believe you're scum partners with ice/penguin.

[SleepyPanda]

You're asking what started the fire wagon when you were on it. Does that make a lot of sense? It looks your vote on Fire at first was a distancing attempt and your quote above was an out to allow yourself to backtrack.

uhhhhh.... no. That statement was supposed to make people go, hey, that reasoning is similar to why we think firestarter is scum, so maybe there is something there. If anything I was supporting the firestarter wagon. (The question was rhetorical in other words, not literal.)

Is guilt by association all you have?.

What/who are you referring to by 'there'?

I'm going by what I see. Are you saying we shouldn't be trying to look for connections?

On another note, I don't buy Panda's case against Cerebus. As soon as he did a *headdesk* post immediately after I hinted at what my scum-tell was, I put him in my town list. (If you think about it, you'll understand why)

You've already labeled him as town because he found your scumtell to be quite dumb? I think at that point, the majority felt the exact same way. It's nice that you can determine a person's alignment so easily. I prefer to do some legwork, but I guess that's just me.

[SleepyPanda]

You're asking what started the fire wagon when you were on it. Does that make a lot of sense? It looks your vote on Fire at first was a distancing attempt and your quote above was an out to allow yourself to backtrack.

uhhhhh.... no. That statement was supposed to make people go, hey, that reasoning is similar to why we think firestarter is scum, so maybe there is something there. If anything I was supporting the firestarter wagon. (The question was rhetorical in other words, not literal.)

Is guilt by association all you have?.

What/who are you referring to by 'there'?

I'm going by what I see. Are you saying we shouldn't be trying to look for connections?

Maybe I would be more sympathetic if you had actually read what I was talking about panda. You clearly have no idea what was going on when I made that post, yet you call it scummy. did you even read page 17? I suggest you do, and stop blatantly ignoring context.

Dybek had just dropped a vote on SSF in a similar fashion that Firestarter did, and IcemanE called him out on it.

Maybe I would be more sympathetic if you hadn't left everything completely vague. I'm not ignoring context if you've never referenced it in the first place. You have never mentioned dybeck or SSF specifically in your posts, until now. When you said you agree with iceman, he made multiple posts in between yours. You didn't bother to quote anything. Your question asking what started the Fire wagon cannot be immediately recognized as rhetorical and it can be interpreted different ways. Am I suppose to be a mind reader?


The last question is rhetorical btw, but it's quite straightfoward though, so you probably already knew.

reading SSF's posts I can understand the suspicion. however, if we are basing it mostly on lurking, let's open our eyes a little:

Here a few of our lurkers:
Armix - I know, you are thinking, who? yeah, he has posted one time. he replaced someone who had posted 2 times.
DBE - Yes, adel brought attention to her by claiming she intentionally put ice at L-1. with a total of 10 posts to her name, I doubt she knew the votecount, and I really doubt voting her is going to encourage participation.
Harvey pew - 7 total posts. votes fire, then switches to crazy after pressure from ice... these look pretty scummy.
Walt - 8 posts... notice the self-congratulation after the lynch...

If we want to shine some light on these lurkers I'd like some answers from harvey pew expecially.

@harvey: Why did you switch your vote to crazy at the say-so of ice? what do you think of crazy now?

@sekinj, nice quintuple posting. An attempt to boost your total posts? Yeah, I'm on to you.

The only time armlx posted was to say he'll be back Tuesday. Just turned Tuesday though.

I agree with hearing more from Harvey.

@Harvey, at one point, you mentioned reading over the ice and Crazy cases at the time and said that you found Crazy to be worse and voted accordingly. When you said worse, did you mean in comparison to iceman? If you found iceman even a tad scummy, why call him an "inno"?

[SleepyPanda]

I'm lovers with arlmx. Still don't know what's with him. He hasn't said anything in daytalk since he left.

Mod, is it too early to prod him?

He's posting in other threads so maybe he forgot he was in this game.

@Cerebus and Harvey, so I'm guessing you two are lovers. Can either of you explain why Harvey voted Fire then said he had no idea what he was doing and turned around and voted Crazy? Did you discuss anything in your daytalk about voting Crazy or Fire? Why did you go your separate ways?

[SleepyPanda]

School started again so I don't have much free time. Will be post more thoroughly as soon as I can.

[SleepyPanda]

Finished catching up. I'm going to be addressing several people, so if I quote a post by you, I'm probably talking to you there.

I've read RR's case against Cerebus and his subsequent defense to it. I'm still not completely satisfied. Cerebus seems more interested in defending himself than doing anything else, and he don't even have the most votes on him. I saw that he was going to do a reread, so still looking forward to that.

Or adel is making it up completely, and you are running with it to buddy up to her.

Here he completely ignores that Iceman claimed to know the scumtell as well. If he really thought the scumtell was completely made up, why defend Iceman instead if treating him with the same amount of doubt he treated Crazy with? Then later:

Here, RR seems to think that my argument is tied to IcemanE, which it is not. I never said IcemanE would not be guilty of this as well if the scum-tell turned out to be a sham, but just because I am lazy, can you please show me where IcemanE says that he knows what the scum tell is? I remember him speculating that it would probably have something to do with voting patterns, but I don't think he ever said that he knew for a fact what it is.

How did you not know that ice also thought he knew the scumtell? That was the reason that started the whole discussion with Crazy and iceman arguing back and forth, which I believe is also when you voiced your opinion and said ice fit your town meta of him.

Harvey Pew...

I thought about point-by-point defence, but I don't see the need with such epic reaching. Essentially RR thinks I am scum because I haven't posted a lot, I voted incorrectly on the D1 lynch and posted the thinking behind my vote.

Ummm, what? This was the only thing you mentioned regarding your unvote of Fire:

Firstly, my Firestarter vote looks really weak. I apologise, I don't know what I read into your posts but I can't see it today:

unvote: Firestarter

I don't see how that explains much of anything. I thought you voted Fire because you and your lover decided so, but according to him, you haven't talked at all. Are you admitting that you hopped on a bandwagon for completely no reason?

@hp: I don't think you can take something like that back.

Sorry if I was unclear but the line I was taking back was "33% 27% 40% six off 22% two on 44% four on" which is meaningless without context

not

"you'd be better off scum-hunting in the nine lynchers than the rest."

The percentages are actually my thinking about that scum hunting. If there were no scum on the lynch then you should look in the non-voters, but there are two mafia factions and if the second faction put any weight into the lynch the percentages are about equal, and if the werewolves considered bussing its even better. Although I don't believe there was bussing, while one-on one-off would seem reasonable I'm not sure it would work as well in a lover game.

I don't know what the hell Adel is talking about. What exactly is he onto here? You're saying if no scum were on the Day 1 lynch, then the scum must be in non-voters (in addition to people who had votes that were not on iceman, I assume). Really. How did you ever figure that out? The two people with the most votes are OF and kloud (wolf). They both were not on the iceman lynch. What does that mean? Should we give up and start over? Iceman's wagon picked up pretty quickly, so scum could've stayed off and it wouldn't even matter. What difference does it make if we go after people who have been acting scummy instead? I also notice that you bring this up when both you and your lover aren't on the wagon. Quite convenient.

kloud we should have talked this over

not that your case is bad, but still

This is regarding kloud's post against pwnz. Why do you need to discuss it beforehand? If you are both town, how does voicing suspicions hurt?

That's about it for now. Will reread OF+wolf and some others after nap.

[SleepyPanda]

Quick post before school.

Basically, OF is deliberately misinterpreting Crazy's posts in particular, and is trying to jump onto a wagon that already died yesterday. His case makes sense, right up until you read the posts before and after those he "creatively interprets".

No. The case on OF is because he voted me for assuming that Adel was town in regards to the scum-tell. He claimed to not know what the scum-tell was, so how would he even know if it would clear someone of being town or not?

I still think that's extremely weak if your case is only built on that. I didn't know your scumtell when you mentioned it and I was fairly certain it wouldn't clear someone completely. Even Adel's super secret scumtell was based on speculation. It's not foolproof. Tell me one scumtell that would clear someone 100%, not just in this game, in any. If mafia is that easy, I don't think anyone would play.

[SleepyPanda]

Basically, OF is deliberately misinterpreting Crazy's posts in particular, and is trying to jump onto a wagon that already died yesterday. His case makes sense, right up until you read the posts before and after those he "creatively interprets".

Why can a wagon not be restarted? Once a wagon dies, that person is lynch-immune? I agree that from what I skimmed of OF's post, it seemed like he was making quite a bit of assumptions, but I don't see how trying to start a wagon again is scummy in itself, especially when people only got off Crazy's wagon to pursue other's that were more scummy.

[SleepyPanda]

@armlx - great. you've gone from irrelevant content to no content. nice.

Coming from the person who's last 5-6 posts are one liners with no content as well.

Why are you so adverse to having him post early game content? When you build a case on someone, do you skip over all Day 1 posts?

[SleepyPanda]

BM, who did you replace? And if it was someone scummy can we kill you now?

Sleepy Panda? And no, you cant kill me now. I'm an unlynchable Jester lover. Who just happens to lack his role pm at this point.

BM

Hey you. I'm still in the game.

[SleepyPanda]

Apparently not... 0.o

BM

Snifflesniffle.

But I don't believe you.

You know why you don't have a role PM? Because

you're

not in the game.

[SleepyPanda]

Anyone who places a vote on any of those three wagons from now to deadline is going to have to have a good explanation for it. I created a scenario where any last minute votes will have consequences. I am making last minute votes more accountable.

Doesn't explaining it now negate the entire purpose of it? What about the 8 people who aren't voting? What about the other 7 or so people that have the only single vote on a person? That's half of the players right there.

[SleepyPanda]

RR + sekinj have swayed me. That is an incredible amount of flip-flop.

unvote; Vote Cerebus

sekinj's post does illustrate cere's flip-flopping pretty damn well. Gah.

Please point out said flip-flopping for me. I'm inclined to believe that both of you are just hopping on the bandwagon without even bothering to check facts.

FOS: Cephrir+charter, KoC+Crazy

[SleepyPanda]

Post 1: votes crazy, goes after him about the adel scumtell thing
Post 3: unvotes crazy, says he misread
Post 5: says ice is townie, votes crazy again
Post 9: “Crazy is so full of shit right now I fear for the next toilet that he encounters.”
Post 15: dilemma about crazy knowing/not knowing the scum tell
Post 16: votes fire
Post 17: says he agrees with ice
Post 18: unvotes fire
Post 20: “I think the firestarter/IcemanE lynch is the right move”
(Then on Day 2 Cerebus has spent his time trying to defend his D1 posts)

It is just amazing to me how much cere’s opinion change from post to post. Look especially at his voting patterns. Also, in this huge game he has made a total of 29 posts. Talk about active lurking. He seems to only come back to place a vote, a vote that is opposite of where ever he was previously.

I read back, and it's all good.

Well, besides completely ignoring my question, you're also not going back to double check anything at all.

First of all, this is cerebus' post 18:

I have this warm in fuzzy feeling inside being in someone's sig.

Sekinj's case says he unvoted Fire here. I have no idea where she came up with that. He never unvotes Fire.

During Day 1, Cerebus' vote has only been on Crazy, besides when he switched to Fire. Show me where he has flip flopped on Crazy. He pushed for Crazy's lynch for the majority of Day 1.

Cerebus has also agreed with ice for the majority of Day 1. Besides when ice revealed he was lovers with Fire, show me where he has flip flopped agreeing with ice.

To Cephrir, charter, KoC, and Crazy:

if you think Cerebus is scum, which faction do you believe he belongs to?

And answer my previous question of where Cerebus has flip flopped.

[SleepyPanda]

Cerebus already explained his reasoning there before. I guess you skimmed over those as well.

[SleepyPanda]

And I did skim, but you're right. I asume sekinj mis-numbered, unless it was deliberate fabrication... explain, sekinj, or I'm looking really hard at you. I think Cerebus is a wolf,

and I wouldn't put it past sekinj and adel to be mafia now

going by this incredible bit of bullcrap, which instantly makes me think - LAL.

What makes you group those two players together?

[SleepyPanda]

54: Calls for people to make a relevant vote, but manages to miss Cerebus and Harvey completely.

Well it was pretty obvious who they'd be voting.

Yes, we both, without consulting each other, voted no-one. Obvious?

So...you intentionally didn't vote, correct? Tell me why you did so again?

Same question to cerebus,

did you intentionally not vote or did you miss deadline?

I'll try to read Sekinj and Cephrir tonight. I didn't read Darox's post as it seemed much like a summary. Sekinj's extremely weak "flip flopping" case on cerebus seemed to me as an excuse to hop on the cerebus wagon. Cephrir+Charter's agreement of said weak case also struck me as odd. Charter just seems to be following his lover and not giving his own opinion.

[SleepyPanda]

Blerrrgh. I'll have more time on the weekends to post.

So, I am gonna do what I did in said post

vote Harvey

and if you guys want a more in depth reason as to why..well...I'll have to do it later cos im miffed at MS at the moment.

I would like a more in depth reason...or just a reason...or anything.

I'd like to hear more from dbe and thAd

Anything in particular. I'm happy to answer questions by any and all.

I don't remember hearing much from you during Day 2, if at all, about your suspicions. Doing a quick look back, you didn't even bother to voice your opinion on the two major wagons, kloud and cerebus, or anyone for that matter. Your vote was on kloud for the majority of Day 2, placing it on dybeck at the start, then it remained there unchanged until deadline. You haven't said anything the entire day that was related, besides telling DBE to vote kloud as well. You were the first to vote dybeck, yet as his wagon slowly built, you've said nothing. Why play so passively?

Day 3, after 5 votes are on HP, you hop on the wagon for his "appeal to emotions", basically parroting what KoC has said previously. What I see in common between your votes is that you wait until others have built up a case, or at least place pressure on someone, before you decide to vote. In the same posts that you place your vote, your reasons for doing so are usually one liners and you don't really go into more detail. All of your votes so far seem extremely opportunistic.

When I have more time, I'll reread Admiral more carefully and some other people.

Vote: ThAdmiral

[SleepyPanda]

He has, and I still think he's a werewolf. But that doesn't change the fact that there are still two mafia out there and I'm happy to pursue them as well.

[SleepyPanda]

Yeah, I meant pairs.

I don't know if you mean Admiral's vote or mine. Admiral's vote isn't bad. Well it in the opportunistic sense, but otherwise, if scum is voting scum, I don't see what's wrong with that. HP already has majority vote. If I tack my vote on as well, what difference will that make? I think my vote is much better where it is.

[SleepyPanda]

Say HP and cerebus are lynched right now. If they are werewolf, great. But we'll be no closer to finding mafia. Mafia also wield more power. They hold more votes among them. Lynching the final werewolf pair pales in comparison to lynching mafia who are able to consolidate their votes.

[SleepyPanda]

In reference to my vote on Harvey, I voted for him mainly because of his exceptionally bad

post

in which he displayed hypocrisy (i.e. doing the thing he was accusing someone else of) and also quoted someone out of context, which in my mind is a no-no.

Your vote on him is mainly for

one

post of his? You don't care to reflect on any of his other posts?

Do you think HP is mafia or werewolf?

Secondly there are two examples of contradictory stances by yourself:
Firstly you say that I was playing passively on the kloud wagon, but you concede that I tried to get dbe to vote for kloud as well.

I'm pretty sure I included the adverb,

besides

, when referring to you telling DBE to vote. Only telling your lover to vote doesn't excuse doing nothing for the rest of the day. I don't see what argument you're trying to make here. You're telling DBE to blindly vote with you a couple day before deadline. Yeah, I'm sure that really sealed the case on kloud for everyone else. You didn't bother to give additional reasons for his wagon. You didn't bother saying what you thought of kloud's posts, if it supported your thoughts that dybeck was scum or not. That's not considered passive playing?

You also say that I vote opportunistically but concede that I voted for dybeck at the start of the day. In fact if you look back through the game you will find that I have hardly ever changed my vote off someone when I have placed it, which would indicate I am not just opportunistically putting my vote on whoever I feel.

I don't understand what you're trying to show me here. People that you voted were already wagons established by others, besides dybeck. Hopping on a wagon isn't opportunistic? With dybeck, you didn't feel the need to make sure that your vote was in the right place? In hindsight, you probably should've, right?

When I say that your vote on dybeck seems opportunistic, it's because during Day 1, when people were questioning dybeck, you only popped in to drop a few comments, which seem would help you determine your decision for the next day. First, you mention that dybeck seemed like scum trying to stay off the wagon of a townie. Then, you go on to say that dybeck seems more like trying to save his scum partner. If ice flipped town, what would you have done? Would you not have went back to your previous position, that dybeck was scum defending a townie?

These problems with your post probably come down to that fact, and you seem to admit this yourself in your last line, that you haven't really read up on my play before voting me.

I read your posts in isolation without bothering to look back at the context, and went by memory instead. I've read your posts before voting you. It only took 5 minutes, if that.

[SleepyPanda]

I can't account for Raging Rabbits voting habits.

Why would you feel the need to? You aren't even lovers.

You also say that I vote opportunistically but concede that I voted for dybeck at the start of the day. In fact if you look back through the game you will find that I have hardly ever changed my vote off someone when I have placed it, which would indicate I am not just opportunistically putting my vote on whoever I feel.

I don't understand what you're trying to show me here. People that you voted were already wagons established by others, besides dybeck. Hopping on a wagon isn't opportunistic? With dybeck, you didn't feel the need to make sure that your vote was in the right place? In hindsight, you probably should've, right?

So you're basing this off the two times I've voted, and one of them doesn't even back up your argument. Good point.

More like 3 votes out of 4? Crazy, iceman, and now HP. With dybeck, others were questioning his play the day prior. It's possible you tried to preemptively vote him in hopes of other people following. I mean, look at all of your votes. I might believe you weren't just hopping on wagons if you continue in the discussions, but you don't. You voted Crazy, useless post in between, switch vote to iceman. And the only thing you say to ice is, "convince me you're town", then nothing till his lynch. Vote dybeck, nothing till lynch.

When I say that your vote on dybeck seems opportunistic, it's because during Day 1, when people were questioning dybeck, you only popped in to drop a few comments, which seem would help you determine your decision for the next day. First, you mention that dybeck seemed like scum trying to stay off the wagon of a townie. Then, you go on to say that dybeck seems more like trying to save his scum partner. If ice flipped town, what would you have done? Would you not have went back to your previous position, that dybeck was scum defending a townie?

Probably not, in the same way that you probably would not be voting me right now if Dybeck had turned up scum. Lynch results will always determine what one does and different results generally lead to different outcomes.

Yes, I agree. But like you said, you stated where your suspicions lie. Up to Day 2, you found Crazy, ice, and dybeck suspicious. Ice was lynched, so your only other two suspicions were Crazy and dybeck. I'm guessing you'd have gone after one or the other. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you have any other suspicions at the time? Are you suspicious of anyone now besides HP?

[SleepyPanda]

neko summarised my Darox point perfectly.
People need to stop following Adel's opinion on everything - that much pull in the hands of one player is dangerous.

Who is doing that? Only Adel's lover is voting along with her at the moment.

[SleepyPanda]

I still prefer my vote on Admiral.
Even though DBE seems to have V/LA, the times that she doesn't and

was

suppose to have made a substantial post, she says she lost her post and then doesn't bother following up on it.

WWB, I assume that last post was directed to HP?
WWB's response to a little pressure does strike me as a bit odd. Why get so frustrated over two people voting you?

ace1217

, post a summary of your daytalk, even before completely reading through the thread.

Also you have managed to waste the entire day chasing after the runners-up to the previous day's lynch. If/when I die the town is going to have tremendous difficulty finding evidence for new suspects since today has just been a re-heat of yesterday with no new pairs subject to serious scrutiny.

Focusing on other people was the point. If we only focused on you, THEN it would be a wasted day.

[SleepyPanda]

Oh wait, guess you were talking to Admiral.

[SleepyPanda]

It doesn't matter if they were only pressuring you or if they thought you were really scum. They're still focusing on you, the result is the same.

It was the tone of your responses that seem odd. It differed from your play before you were under pressure. You started using more sarcasm and foul language.

[SleepyPanda]

They're not scumtells in and of themselves. If someone uses foul language all the time, then obviously it would be moot. I rather judge an individual on their own merits. The use of foul language and sarcasm is not odd by itself. It's the shift between your level-headed play prior and the much more aggressive tone you take up after being under suspicion.

How about telling me what triggered you to respond the way you did? Do you always play like that? Have you done so in other games when under suspicion?

[SleepyPanda]

I believe I already have.

They're not scumtells in and of themselves.

If someone uses foul language all the time, then obviously it would be moot.

I rather judge an individual on their own merits. The use of foul language and sarcasm is not odd by itself.

It's the shift between your level-headed play prior and the much more aggressive tone you take up after being under suspicion.

I'm not lecturing you. I'm not your mother. I don't care if you use foul language or if you patronize others. I'm noting you because I haven't played with TS as much as I have with you. I don't have anything to compare her playstyle with. Her first post was that she'd crack the game in 15 minutes. Maybe her playstyle is just wild.

Answer nao, pleez.

[SleepyPanda]

Where are my answers? >:[

[SleepyPanda]

TO ALL: I don't know where darla is either. I would also like her to post more. However - I don't really see why this makes us seem scummy. Why does more active = town? I'm trying to get on and talk as much as possible, but I am also trying to enjoy my holiday in new york - hence you may not get as much out of me as other people.

It's not entirely based on just activity that makes you two scummy. Even though she is V/LA, she can still read, right? She has done almost zero scumhunting. With her last two votes (for iceman and HP, she didn't vote Day 2), both times, she said she had a longer post, but the site had an error and it disappeared. With no follow up, it's basically placing a vote with no reason at all. I would even buy "I'm just following my lover" than the excuse she has given. I would still like to hear her reasons for her votes, but I'm guessing she'll say something like she forgot.

[SleepyPanda]

well i would apologise for my absence, but it seems i havent missed much. No Lover, No response to my accusation on Crazy/KoC. *cries*

BM

This is where i'm at. I dont see alot of point me continuing reading when you're the only person who knows i'm here, and you're not being totally helpful.

BM

You're not going to read anything if it doesn't pertain to Crazy and KOC? What about the other wagons? Do you think they're all town?

[SleepyPanda]

To be fair I think she has said that.

Nope, she didn't.

Scumish to neutral - Possible Werewolves or Mafia
Sleepy Panda/Armix (pm) - Niether Sleepy Panda or Armix voted for Fire/Ice either, Sleepy Panda made the same comment as OF regarding a vote on Ice at L2, however did not vote for him in the final count.

My vote was on Fire. When ice announced that he and Fire were lovers, there was no reason to move my vote as he was already the leading bandwagon by quite a lot.

If HP were to flip scum, would you find Cephrir's last minute arbitrary vote on HP more or less scummy? The result wouldn't change regardless.

Townish
ThAd/Darla - It is not so much I consider ThAd/dbe town as they just have not posted enough to make me suspect they are scum. I would not feel right voting for them on lurking and dbe's L2 vote alone, however there lack of participation is hurting the town's chance.

BattleMage (ssf)/Clockwork (ea) - I am really looking forward to reading Clockworks evaluation on the game so far. I think BM is just a litle too focused on crazy, however he has not done anything really that has made me suspect him or to join the wagon which has formed on him.

Why aren't these two filed under "scum to neutral" instead of "townish"? Why will they not be considered scummy until they do something scummy? If everyone were to lurk, would you consider them all "townish" then?

Vote ThAdmiral

, for sticking to the backround, jumping on all four significant wagons for unconvincing reasons while not doing any other real scumhunting, and only putting actual effort into self preservation after Panda attacked him.

The vote analysis above I believe is an attempt to appear to be actively scumhunting without having to really commit himself to anything, thus he supplies us with dry neutral information.

Aqree with this.

Vote:ThAdmiral

[SleepyPanda]

I don't believe Crazy is confirmed town, but I'm leaning towards him being town.

Posting daytalk sounds like a good idea.

[SleepyPanda]

Prod picked up. I've caught up on what I've missed but skipped the daytalk posts for now.

Just like you to take out everything else I said;

Please tell me how it benefits the town for me not to have read the game thoroughly and follow my lover blindly? To me Reading > Daytalk right now, until I get caught up.

This comes off as highly suspicious to me. Majority has already agreed to posting DT, and some have even done so when you posted this, but you feel the need to read through the thread first? Please tell me how it benefits town if your unwillingness to post DT is causing the game to slow down since we'd all have to wait for you to complete your read-through before you post your DT so we can continue. From how I see it, if you are scum and you replaced into the game, you'd be at a disadvantage and would prefer to finish reading the thread first, which is what you're doing.

Do you (that are town) not realize that you're being led right on into easy lynches? It happened the past two days, it will probably happen again today. I don't understand why townies in practically every game I play let this happen to them. They see something that they don't like or isn't what they would do, get tunnel vision, lynch the townie, then do it again the next day.

Doesn't this apply directly to how you're tunnel visioning on Crazy since like, Day 1? You act as if kloud and HP pairs have done nothing scummy. In fact, you even voted kloud at one point. So were you being led into an easy lynch, just following everyone else?

Like seriously, do you think Cephscum would have made up those times without, y'know, cross referencing charter's post to see how many posts I was supposed to have? Srsly.

Also, your post fails to address my 1686. What could possibly compel me to screw up the number of posts like that unless it were true. If you use the word WIFOM in your answer to this I will find a way to smack you through the internet.

If your DT times and posts do not sync up, that is your fault. Both you and charter refuse to combine them together and instead do it separately. You act as if we shouldn't be questioning it at all. Get ready to smack me. You're the one that is using it as a defense to say that scum would be more careful and since your time and posts don't match up, it must be a town tell. I hate to break it to you, but that is pure WIFOM. So you're saying I argue something like, since both of you decided to post DT posts and times separately, then make an obvious error that surely scum would never make, would, in fact, actually be something scum

would do

to try and outsmart town players into thinking they would not be so stupid, is a scumtell. Oh, and don't say it's WIFOM either, or I'll smack you.

DID YOU PEOPLE NOT SEE THAT I OMITTED DUMB STUPID OFF TOPIC POSTS? WE TALKED ABOUT NON GAME RELATED STUFF THAT I SEE NO POINT IN INCLUDING HERE.

Yeah, because you include such important and relevant posts such as "me-blast" and "me-i know". What was the point of leaving such inconsequential posts in and then deciding to remove other posts?

Well, I'll see who armlx scumpartners are.

Are you implying that you think we're mafia here? Because it confuses me with what you said in the same post below.

Oh, look at what I found, armlx wasn't on icemans wagon, and was on Kloud's and HP's. Now he's on another townie's as well! Are the rest of you guys going to let him get away with lynching townies at will? Seriously?

You're saying armlx wasn't on iceman's wagon. I'm guessing you're saying he's possible werewolf here then? Make up your mind. Do you think he's mafia or werewolf? I also like how you're completely ignoring me as his partner. Please go back and look at what happened on Day 1. I was pushing for a Fire lynch before they had even revealed they were lovers. How does trying to push a lynch on his lover suppose to help prevent their lynch?

Armlx and SP- even more sparse. The lack of dt before armlx makes sense due to pacman's nonexistence in the game, but the lack of dt upon his arrival is questionable.

I'm pretty inactive during the weekdays and I've never felt a need to converse with my partner before posting my thoughts. Most of my suspicions, I've just posted straight into the game thread. If armlx agrees or disagrees, he can just as easily say so after. I'm almost certain you can even see how our gameplay reflects how little we used our DT. Most of the time we aren't voting the same person or even on the same train of thought.

Also, from what I looked over, if you remove your Day 1 posts and all the sexually related off topic discussion in your daytalk, it would look almost as sparse as ours.

I am however, in complete agreement with armlx here.

Vote: charter

BM + CWR are next on the list Ceph.

And... why not first?

Zzz, why not after?
BM and CW have not even responded yet. Also, you're voting them.

[SleepyPanda]

How is voting you because you're buddying up to the extreme, and encouraging others to do the same, OMGUS? Only scum buddy, you could be a different scumgroup than Crazy, where did I say Crazy was town? I'm pretty sure I've never said or thought that this game, I don't know where you get that from.

Because armlx sez, lol

Because you are one of the sheep I'm talking about that is blindly following him because he's buddied up to you so well.

Sheep, as in he's town being led? Oh, what's this, KOC is lovers with Crazy. The same Crazy you believe is scum. Getting mixed up in your webs of lies?

Please read the game then get back to me.

Nice. How about actually contributing and tell me what isn't right?

[SleepyPanda]

No, please read the game and get back to me, find where I've stopped pursuing KoC and Crazy a while ago.

Because you're voting armlx now, it changes something? I see no mention that your opinion of Crazy has changed. Do you still think he's scum? If so, why do you say KOC is a sheep?

[SleepyPanda]

I like how you ignore my questions and just respond to what you want.

Because he is following armlx after armlx buddies up to him.

Wouldn't this strengthen your case on Crazy then? What made you believe armlx is more likely to be scum than Crazy?

Since you didn't answer my question of what scum faction you believe armlx is in or whether you think Crazy is still scum or not, what do you mean by buddying up? That armlx and Crazy are from different scum factions buddying up to one another?

Once again, what faction do you believe armlx is in? What faction do you believe Crazy is in?

[SleepyPanda]

Once again, what faction do you believe armlx is in? What faction do you believe Crazy is in?

That's right. Keep ignoring my questions and hope that I'll forget eventually so you won't have to answer. Sorry, but I'm going to include them in every post of mine until you do answer. See how long you'll continue to ignore me.

How about you take your own advice and read the game. I voted you. It's because I didn't unvote.

Unvote, Vote: charter

[SleepyPanda]

Once again, what faction do you believe armlx is in? What faction do you believe Crazy is in?

How about, if you lynch armlx and he isn't scum, I will vote for myself.

No, how about you answer my questions first. Why are you still continuing to post and ignoring my questions? You've responded at least four times already since I've asked you. Are they that difficult? You need some help? I know exactly why you don't want to answer them.

How about, if you lynch armlx and he isn't scum, I will vote for myself. Should be easy to lynch me if armlx comes up town. What do you have to lose?

What will we have to lose? If you're claiming to be town yourself and that you're willing to lynch yourself when we flip town, it's obvious what we will lose. That's plain idiotic. You've even admitted to not wanting to contribute if there's a chance you'll be lynched. That's downright unhelpful. If you are indeed town, which I don't see how would be possible, how you've played so far is absolutely horrible.

I hope not as they have done nothing useful the whole game (useful being trying to lynch scum).

Please, show me the massive amounts of contributions you have made to this game. I hope you're not going to include self-sacrifice and giving up in the list. Oh, and if you're actually still reading this,

answer my questions at the top of this post first.

[SleepyPanda]

You all are complete idiots.
Lynch armlx after me.
The end.

Still ignoring me. How obvious it is that you're scum?

[SleepyPanda]

Since it's apparent you're never going to answer me, I'll tell you why you don't want to answer.

You think Crazy is scum, and that he's not part of the werewolves faction as for the exchange between him and iceman on Day 1. You even mention this in your daytalk I believe. So that means that you think he's part of mafia.

Now, with armlx, you never explicitly said what faction you think he's in. But it's obvious once you put a little thought into it. You think he's scum as well. However, you don't think armlx and Crazy are in the same factions. You can tell because you repeatedly refer to armlx buddying up to Crazy. I really don't think you would use the term "buddying up" if you thought they were in the same scum faction. Also, you don't think Crazy is town either. You can find several times where you mention that you still think Crazy is scum, during Day 4. Put all that together and what possibility are we left with? That you believe armlx to be werewolf. But what do you say in the post below? Looks to me like a bit of contradiction.

Now that I think about that, I'm going to go back and find who were those pushing for lynching werewolves after day one.

I'd bet there's a pretty good chance they are actually mafia.

I think it's distinctively better for the town to not lynch werewolves next, as then the mafia know exactly who all the townies are. If we lynch mafia next, then all the scum are still guessing.

But hey, at least I agree with you on the bolded!

After being so positively sure that Crazy is scum, and I'm sure you still think he is, what made you decide to gun for armlx? Explain to me why you want to go after werewolves now. Explain to me why you call KOC a sheep. Explain to me why you aren't dead yet.

[SleepyPanda]

Also, I don't want to hear some BS excuse like, "I think armlx is 99% scum and Crazy is 98% scum, so it's obvious I would be voting armlx", that is if you ever decide to respond to me.

[SleepyPanda]

Getting lynched regardless, no use putting in the effort, etc. If people seem willing to listen to reason perhaps I will bother trying.

Once again, brilliant logic just the same as charter. You two were meant for each other.

I notice that everyone voting charter is dodging neko's question.

It's been answered. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me to why your partner continuously avoids my questions.

I refuse to vote for charter. I view with suspicion everyone on charter's wagon.

You're moving up to second place on my list as the other mafia pair once charter flips mafia.

Shouldn't be too hard to figure who the last werewolf pair once mafia is gone.

[SleepyPanda]

EBWOP,

If people seem willing to listen to reason perhaps I will bother trying.

Actually, I'm interested in what you have to say. I'm willing to listen, so talk.

Things to do/questions to answer:

1) Explain your case on armlx/SP
2) Explain your case on CW/BM
3) What are your thoughts of Adel/TS? TS has continued to post, but has yet to post their daytalk. Essentially, it's the exactly what CW/BM have done, which is not posting daytalk. Why do you not mentioning them?

[SleepyPanda]

vote armlx
LISTEN TO TS. SHE WAS TOWN. SHE WASN'T AN IDIOT AND KNEW THAT ME/CEPH ARE TOWNIES. DONT MAKE IT TWO GROUPS OF TOWNIES HAVING TO DIE BEFORE YOU FINALLY LYNCH ARMLX/SP SCUM PAIR.

OMG. ADEL WAS SAYING I WAS TOWN AND SHE WAS TOWN, SO THAT PROVES I AM TOWN. A+ for using great logic again.

Vote: charter

Honestly, I don't understand how no one else wants you dead.

Says the person who is STILL avoiding to answer my questions. You don't want to answer because you'd be writing your own death warrant since you wouldn't be able to explain what you've done.

[SleepyPanda]

I'm also not answering SP questions, whatever they were, I stopped reading his posts a while back.

Blatent lie? I've asked you those questions at least in two post with other additional questions which you DID respond to. You specifically avoided the ones I've been repeatedly asking again and again.

[SleepyPanda]

Why don't you respond to me? Because you think I'm scum? You've been responding to armlx this entire time. Why do you only ignore me? Because you have something to hide.

[SleepyPanda]

I agree with RR that scum could've read what Crazy wrote and just as easily PM the mod. It's a nulltell. I've even tried to get someone modkilled when I was town.

To neko and sekinj, what do you think of charter ignoring to answer questions?

[SleepyPanda]

Mod, prod on DBE please? Or even better, did she get enough prods to be replaced yet?

[SleepyPanda]

Gee, my defense is being totally ignored. There's a shocker. Curse you for telling me you might listen SP. Not surprised charter is too pissed to answer questions.

Because there really isn't much to respond to. Your cases on people who you think are scum can be summed up into one sentence. Either you or your lover said that someone was basing an entire case on you guys for your daytalk. Are you not applying the same principle to CW/BM? They still have not even responded to anything that's on the table yet and you're set to string them up as scum. I'd like to hear something at least.

You say that armlx and charter's exchange makes you think armlx is scum. How about being a little more specific?

I also happen to know that a protown player is suspicious of him.

Are you talking about charter here? I don't see how it helps anyone else by saying this.

So, if they are unwilling to do that, then they deserve ALL the suspicion they are getting! If they refuse to act like the rest of the town, I dont' see how we can assume anything but that they are scum...

If that's the only conclusion you can come to, why are you not voting them?

Also, I wasn't the one asking for your daytalk. It was WWB or RR that you misquoted. So to RR/WWB and sekinj who are still asking for their complete daytalk, Cephrir has already posted it, albeit after a long enough time.

[SleepyPanda]

After me poking him about it a few times, as I and he have said, he's not suspicious of Crazy anymore. I'm fairly certain anyway.

Also, I'd like to actually tell me where he has said this, either in daytalk or in game. I'd prefer to hear it from charter himself, but he said he's not going to respond to me anymore. And if it's true, I'd also like to know the reason for what changed his mind, after 4 days. It better be a good reason.

[SleepyPanda]

(daytalk goes here)

Why did you remove all mention of SSF in your daytalk? Seeing as how that's the person you're most suspicious of at the moment, why did you decide to cut the conversation pertaining to him?

40 me- who to vote today? harvey coming under fire. I think BM is scum, crazy thinks we're scum. I'd vote for any of the three.

After your lecture of town being led into easy lynches, you were willing to vote HP just because he was "coming under fire"? You're sitting there saying armlx was on two townie lynch wagons even though you were on kloud's wagon, as well as willingness to bandwagon HP just because others were? What is that?

[SleepyPanda]

In fact, charter was active all the way up to the point of HP's deadline lynch. Here's the deadline votecount as well:

.::] Final Day 3 Vote Count [::.
*Harvey Pew (8) - armlx, neko2086, sekinj, ThAdmiral, DarlaBlueEyes, Raging Rabbit, Knight of Cydonia, Cephrir
Crazy (2) - Battle Mage, Harvey Pew
ThAdmiral (2) - SleepyPanda, Crazy
Darox (1) - charter
Raging Rabbit (2) - Adel, Toaster Strudel

Not Voting (5) - starrie, ace1217, WaltWishbone, Darox, ClockworkRuse

Was your arbitrary SINGLE vote on Darox more important than placing your vote onto the majority bandwagon who you supposedly were suspicious of? Heck, even your other suspect of Crazy had 2 votes already. You had a better chance of getting Crazy lynched than Darox at that point. Did you want to stay off HP's wagon so you can use the argument that armlx was on two townie lynch wagons while you weren't?

[SleepyPanda]

ARE YOU RETARDED? I'M NOT, THATS WHY I WASNT VOTING FOR THE TOWNIES.

I have no idea which question you're responding to. Your own version of your daytalk said you were willing to vote BM, HP, or Crazy. Why did you not vote HP? Or even a better question, how did you know they were townies so to not vote them?

Because you're scum.

[SleepyPanda]

Wow, you are truly obtuse. I've tried saying this a bunch of times. NO ONE IN THIS GAME IS COMPLETELY INFORMED. NOT EVEN SCUM (ARMLX AND RR) KNOW WHO IS TOWN AND WHO ISNT. ONCE AGAIN, YOURE ATTACKING ME OVER NOTHING. I'm not doing anything scummy, I'm just pissed off and fed up with this game.

Explain your previous post then. Why were you not voting for "the townies"?

You have contributed nothing to help the town, and you will continue not contributing anything to help the town.

Who is the one asking questions and who is the one not answering them? How are you rating contributions to this game? People who have lynched scum? So is Adel the only one who contributed to this game since she was the one that found a pair of werewolves?

[SleepyPanda]

I'm just pissed off and fed up with this game.

Not an excuse. He can easily ask for replacement instead of doing nothing.

[SleepyPanda]

...and you're scum.

Glad we're getting somewhere.

[SleepyPanda]

I don't see why they would carry over. It's a new day.

[SleepyPanda]

What happened to Crazy scum and Darox scum you were so sure of? Oh wait, because that'd be too many scum.

[SleepyPanda]

Charter is being even more defensive, yes, and offering terrible appeals to emotion, yes, but BM/CWR are pretty much confirmed scum and should be priority lynch in my eyes.

I'm not asking if you think charter is a better or worse lynch than BM/CW. I'm asking if you think they are scum. Do you see any good reason for a townie to ignore questions directed towards them?

[SleepyPanda]

(daytalk goes here)

Why did you remove all mention of SSF in your daytalk? Seeing as how that's the person you're most suspicious of at the moment, why did you decide to cut the conversation pertaining to him?

Still like to hear answer for this.

[SleepyPanda]

So, if they are unwilling to do that, then they deserve ALL the suspicion they are getting! If they refuse to act like the rest of the town, I dont' see how we can assume anything but that they are scum...

If that's the only conclusion you can come to, why are you not voting them?

well, I'm definitely considering it, but I wanted to see how this discussion developed. I also want to see if BM or CWR are goign to return.

What about waiting to see if BM or CW returns? Not going to wait for a prod? Replacement? A response? How is refusal to post daytalk different than refusal to answer questions? The difference between CW and charter that I can see right now is that charter has been active the entire time, while CW has not.

What happened to Crazy scum and Darox scum you were so sure of? Oh wait, because that'd be too many scum.

I also forgot to include the BM/CW pair that charter believes are scum as well. So that makes 5 confirmed scum pairs. Charter is like, the best scum hunter ever.

[SleepyPanda]

I had been waiting and then I waited a little more. Now, I've seen enough and I voted. I think refusal to post daytalk is scummier than refusal to answer questions, although they are both very scummy. Obviously BM/CWR feel that just posting their daytalk might incriminte. While charter/ceph just did a bad job of it in the first place and are now still whining about it.

And obviously charter doesn't want to answer questions because he would incriminate himself.

You don't think a person who replaced in with some 60 odd pages would have less grasp of the game than someone who's been here from the start? I rather give CW the benefit of the doubt as he might not have fully understood the situation than lynch him when there could be a chance of error. You don't agree to this either, I assume?

[SleepyPanda]

I think we are really just arguing over whom to lynch first, which I really don't see the point of. I think both pairs are very scummy.
I just don't understand why BM/CWR couldn't just post daytalk, even if he hasn't read the game and even if he don't understand what is going on. Just cut and paste what is there and paraphrase, either that or if it is true, come out and say their predessor's had no daytalk, but to just be mute?? At first I WAS more suspicious of charter/ceph becuase they were active, but hadn't posted daytalk correctly. But after I saw that they HAD posted daytalk, BM inched ahead of them. I still don't have any sort of defense for charter/ceph, I just think not posting daytalk at all is a worse offense.

Are you really giving BM/CWR a free ride becuase they havn't posted daytalk? after your last comment I am very curious about exactly how scummy you think BM/CWR are.

Doing something scummy and being scum aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not satisfied with lynching BM/CW just because CW refused to post daytalk. I'm not going into further depth now as I really want to hear from BM/CW first instead of giving them excuses they can use.

Also, with someone who I think is almost surely scum voting that pair, it makes me more hesitant. There's no way I'm going to switch my vote from someone who I believe to be confirmed scum to someone I still have questions about. It's possible that they're both be scum, just in different factions, but it's also possible they aren't. Why risk a mislynch if you can take an alternate route?

As it stands, if charter does flip mafia, you and neko are my top suspects as their partners. Looking at the charter/Cephrir pair interactions with everyone else, and vice versa, it rules almost everyone else out except you two and maybe ThAdmiral/DBE.

[SleepyPanda]

Obiviousley if BM/CW flip scum, then it would only be two of these three. Going back to the whole werewolves discussion, if we don't believe there was any bussing the only couples left who did not vote for Fire/Ice are;

SleepyPanda/Armix
Darox/Starrie

You do realize my vote WAS on Fire Day 1? You continue to push this even though I've corrected you before. You also act as if daytalk is so immensely hard to fake. What armlx posted was the jist of our daytalk. In fact, we still haven't said anything in it since he posted it. I see no need to, and apparently he feels the same.

[SleepyPanda]

Not letting what go? That my vote wasn't on Fire or Ice? Because that makes no sense at all, since it was.

[SleepyPanda]

Not letting what go? That my vote wasn't on Fire or Ice? Because that makes no sense at all, since it was.

I know you voted for Fire.

Then I'm not understanding why you include my name for people who didn't vote Fire/ice.

[SleepyPanda]

I fail to see the difference. If Fire had been lynched, then they both would have.

[SleepyPanda]

DGB replaced starrie, not DBE.

Alright I'm back, this time, different costume.

You can start unvoting charter right now.

I'm pretty sure that armlx and RR are scum.

I'd like to hear your reasons as to why you think charter isn't scum. This was all you said before,

To wit; he's saying the kinda thing townies say.

And? Scum won't say anything they can when they are going to be lynched?

[SleepyPanda]

I'd like to hear your reasons as to why you think charter isn't scum. This was all you said before

I can't coat it with catchphrase town tells. His frustration is totally genuine. I can sense it in every word. There's no other way to explain it, it's an emotional response.

Not to mention that the so-called case on him is complete and utter rubbish.

Then why don't you give me a good reason as to why he refuses to answer questions. He wasn't fustrated when I first asked them, at least not with me. He seemed to be fustrated with the daytalk business and his exchange with armlx, but the questions I ask him have to do with neither. I approach from a completely different angle and yet he ignored them, and continued to ignore them. His "fustration" is probably more of an excuse to just actively lurk.

I'd also like to know if you're just solely going off charter's suspicions now or if you came upon them independently. What makes you believe RR is scum as well?

[SleepyPanda]

@ThAdmiral, I want to hear what you think of charter/Ceph and BM/CW or whoever replaces him.

[SleepyPanda]

charter - *sigh*

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly. The way you seem content to just say empty stuff like "BM is huggable" makes it look like you're scum who's just out for townie credit if they turn town. If charter wasn't so very scummy I'd reconsider my vote, but anyways, a more coherent explanation would be nice at this point.

The only case against Charter is that he is getting frustrated by the votes on himself.

I want to hear what brought about your change of heart. What did DGB say to convince you? Because she hasn't said anything new since she replaced back in. You seemed so confident that charter was scum and now you are saying he's town? What are the reasons for voting charter before?

[SleepyPanda]

charter - *sigh*

DGB, you say you strongly think both charter and BM are town. If I were to think the two almost automatic lynch candidates were wrongly accused, I'd make a lot more of an effort to show why exactly. The way you seem content to just say empty stuff like "BM is huggable" makes it look like you're scum who's just out for townie credit if they turn town. If charter wasn't so very scummy I'd reconsider my vote, but anyways, a more coherent explanation would be nice at this point.

The only case against Charter is that he is getting frustrated by the votes on himself.

I want to hear what brought about your change of heart. What did DGB say to convince you? Because she hasn't said anything new since she replaced back in. You seemed so confident that charter was scum and now you are saying he's town? What are the reasons for voting charter before?

I was voting Charter because he was doing nothing but spouting hot air.

Uhhh, isn't this the reason you're unvoting him?

I like how your responses to why you think charter is town is remarkably similar to DGB's reasoning. That charter is just a frustrated townie. I fail to see how "Oh, he sounds like a townie now because that scum wouldn't say stuff like that" is a valid reason to void his previous actions.

When did this game become so full of WIFOM reasoning and poor logic?

[SleepyPanda]

1) Ignoring questions
2) Using crap logic *
3) Contradictions**
4) Active lurking
5) Willingness to bandwagon

*Example:
-Concludes that armlx was on two townie lynch wagons, so he must be scum. Ignores the fact that he (charter) was on the first townie wagon, as well as expressing intent to vote for the second townie wagon.
-Uses lynched townies' suspicion as part of case. The only information you gain from confirmed townies is that they have no hidden agenda. They are just as susceptible to being incorrect.

**Example:
-Says that lynching mafia would be the best move. However, hints that he believes armlx/SP are werewolves.
-Named at least 5 pairs he believes are confirmed scum. All recently, Day 4.
-Believes Crazy/KoC are scum, yet calls KoC a sheep, as in he is town blindly following scum.

I'm sure there are more examples, but these are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.

[SleepyPanda]

Question for everyone, if me and ceph are lynched, will you then proceed to lynch armlx and then RR the next two days?
If BM/CWR are lynched today, are you just going to lynch me and ceph tomorrow?
A simple yes or no will do for each, I don't want any explaination.

I say that no one should even answer him.

You have contributed nothing to help the town, and you will continue not contributing anything to help the town.

If you're just going to sit there, it makes no difference either way.

[SleepyPanda]

I say that no one should even answer him.

Why? What harm is there in doing so?

There is none. But if he won't even bother to take the time to answer questions, why should we answer his? Even if everyone answers, will he actually start doing something? Probably not.

[SleepyPanda]

Yes. Especially when he's asking questions that do nothing to help move the game forward. In fact, how can you even answer it so confidently when you don't even know what will happen from this day to tomorrow's lynch? They're useless questions to only satisfy his own curiosity.

[SleepyPanda]

You're one to call out ridiculous logic. I'm sure not answering questions that are completely pointless, as well as being addressed to all players, and not answering questions that are relevant to the game, and directed to you specifically, is exactly the same.

Yeah, I don't care about anything which is why I bother to ask questions in the first place. How is setting up future lynches protown at all? Let's completely disregard everything now to tomorrow's lynch. In fact, let's set up Day 7's lynch now.

[SleepyPanda]

Other's have made cases on you, I agree with them. I don't have enough time to go through 80 pages and make a massive formal case that no one will read anyway.

Formal case? You haven't even made an attempt at any kind of case. How about you just list reasons as to why you think people are scum. That doesn't even require you to read through all the pages. You should know why you think people are scum, and if that's so, it shouldn't be hard at all.

[SleepyPanda]

@charter: why would you jsut want a yes or no and no explanation? That just seems like you are fishing to take someone out of context.

It was mostly because I'm just trying to gauge the town's (as a whole) opinion. I didn't want someone to list a bunch of exceptions or reasoning and make it all complicated. I'm not looking for the reason behind anyone's answer, and I'm not going to try and change you answer.

In other words, useless.

How about you just list reasons as to why you think people are scum. That doesn't even require you to read through all the pages. You should know why you think people are scum, and if that's so, it shouldn't be hard at all.

Are you going to do this? If you are town as you claim, why not do this to convince everyone else? I see no reason for you not to, even if you think I'm scum.

[SleepyPanda]

We're not desperate, we're trying to do what's best for the town, and that is not getting lynched.

Hehe, you're funny.

[SleepyPanda]

Can we switch lovers Neko? You guys are swingers right?

Just kidding hunny bunny. Wink

I don't think they would have the time for you anyways. I'm sure they're too busy swinging with another couple already.

Why? Because it's the protown thing to do, isn't it? You get on his case for not answering questions and then you won't do the same? Way to take the high road.

It's because his playstyle is driving me insane. I honestly do not want to play with him in another game at all. He's doing absolutely nothing.

I've already explained why my questions and his are different. How about answering this question; are you going to lynch thAdmiral/DBE on Day 7? How about Day 8? Day 6? Day 10? Your opinion can change each day from what happens on said days. It's useless to answer questions like that.

I say that no one should even answer him.

Who put you in charge?

No one. I just feel like being an ass. And are you seriously going to bother responding to posts like this? Is this post more relevant to the game than my post on why charter is scum? How about you respond to that one instead. Do you agree with the points I've brought up against him or not?

Also, you are starting to make assumptions (italicized portion).

And? Show me where I'm wrong in my assumption. Did charter explain what was so extremely protown about asking those questions? No.

I've asked him to list reasons for his top suspects, just off the top of his head, since he's too useless to go look through the pages to back them up, and what does he do? Nothing. What reason does a townie have, to not say why he think is people are scum? Whether he's scum or town, there's no plausible explanation for not doing so. If he's scum, he only hurts his own team. If he's town, he's hurting everyone else. At this point, he's not playing the game at all.

[SleepyPanda]

Regarding DarlaBlueEyes' replacement, I have offered her the chance to continue playing but if I find a replacement before she accepts she will be replaced.

That's actually good, even though she has been scarce it is so much better then finding a replacement... Armix also commented, we active players (TOWNIES) to make a good vote...

ThAd - Why don't you buy that pretty girl a nice bouquet of flowers and get her to actually play? Give her one more chance?

How is this good? I would very much prefer her to be replaced than her staying in the game and barely contributing.

[SleepyPanda]

Who are you? The opinion police? I can't give my opinion anymore? She reached 3 prods, she should be replaced. In the 5 days that we played, how much has she contributed? How many times did she vote? Like 2 times? Yeah, let's keep an inactive player than replace with someone who will actually participate.

[SleepyPanda]

@Slepypanda - why don't you want someone familar with the game, who has read teh post who may potenitally be town and have an idea who scum is to continue in the game?

Wow, what do all these assumptions for? How do they help? DBE MAY potentially be scum also. She MAY be town and just plain useless. Tell me why you prefer someone who doesn't participate to stay in the game instead of having replacement who will. Having someone familiar isn't a reason.

Just because she did not contribute because she was hit by two hurricanes? And had two posts lost due to the CPU rpoblem here on MS? Do you really want to wait 6 days for a replacement when your partenr Armix contradicts your feelings on this matter by stating he is upset that we do not have enough townies here to vote?

Yeah, so she was hit by two hurricanes. Sure, I hope she's ok and all, but we're playing a game here. If she can't contribute due to real life problems, then the best thing to do would be to give up her spot so that someone who CAN contribute can take over.

She had two post, which was supposedly the two largest posts she made in the entire game, and coincidentally, both times it failed to post. And for some reason, she never felt the need to rewrite the simplest explanation for why she was voting so.

Where does armlx say that there are not enough townies voting? Where does armlx say that he doesn't want DBE replaced? I don't need to daytalk with armlx. He can have his own opinions. I'm not the opinion police like you, you bully.

Facts are facts - go have a daytalk with Armix if you disagree.

What are these facts you speak of?

And at the point, do you think DBE/ThAdmiral to be scum or town? I'd like cited reasons as well please.

[SleepyPanda]

EBWOP: fixing grammar errors from previous post. too sleepy.

Wow, what do

are

all these assumptions for?

And at

this

point,

In the 83 pages we've played so far, DBE has only contributed about 1/2 of ONE page. That's not even 1%.

[SleepyPanda]

[quote="WWB]Dude, I don't want someone to read 2000 posts and join the game... "And no one answer his other genius like questions" [/quote]
If someone is willing to replace in, I'm sure they'd have notice that the game was already at 83 pages. I also assume since they're willing to replace in, it means that they're willing to read through.

Tell me whether you think DBE is town or scum. You don't even have enough information to make that judgement call.

[SleepyPanda]

Dude, quit trying to suck me into your bullshit wifom....

I dont want her replaced, I dont want someone to read 2000 posts before voting, when she already has...

Tell me how you know she has even read through all the posts. DBE last post was 9/19, which is around page 65. 19 total posts, 65 pages. That's about one post every 4 pages. She doesn't even touch on all the topics at the time of her postings.

The vote count is 6-3. One vote won't change anything. You're also voting charter. What does someone having to read 2000 posts have to do anything with their vote? How much will that one vote effect? Will DBE even vote before deadline?

you who are perhaps scum want a rookie in that you think you can pull into the same type of virtual biggest "E-Penis" game with me, but you better bet your ass you two will lose against me! I ain't Charter!

If I was scum, I'd probably prefer someone who is not contributing. How much harm can a lurker do? And what are you going on about here? I'm voting charter because I think he's scum. You go play with your penises all you want.

[SleepyPanda]

I am gonna do the "sleepy panda" at this point...that has been a new dance created by you and Armix that is the WIFOM of the fucking century against Armix....

Why do you keep saying WIFOM when I talk about DBE's posting activity? Has she not posted only 19 times? Has she not posted less than 1 page? It's not WIFOM. It's fact.

Dude, dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees, end of convo, 1 vote yes, you 1 idiot votes no. Wink

so tis a tie so far. Wink

Says the person who criticizes me for messing up quotes while doing the same thing in the same post. Only person who has said they wanted DBE to stay in the game so far: you. Since when do you make up the rest of town?

[SleepyPanda]

You're the only one playing a completely different game what with your penis games, your last post games.

dbe should stay if she wants and the rest of the town agrees,

Show me who else has said they want DBE to stay in the game. It's only been you if I'm correct.

[SleepyPanda]

You're the one who is saying "the rest of town agrees". Who are you referring to?

I'm not even responding anymore. This is completely pointless.

[SleepyPanda]

This is what I wrote, dbe should stay if the rest of the town agrees - Sleepy pandas definition of this is I have spoke for the town which I did not! He is scum! Charter has been right all along in my humble opinion.

You need an english lesson. That is not what you originally said.

Oh, and nice attempt to try to strawman.

[SleepyPanda]

@WWB, if you still want to argue about the english lesson, go ask RR. I'm sure he can explain it to you. Or I probably will when I make a formal case on you soon.

VOTE: Armix

DGB/Darox, BM/CW if you wanted your shot at saving Charter/Cephrir it is right now and only now...

Wow, if this isn't blatent buddying up, I don't know what is. Why are you only addressing Darox and BM couples when there are other couples you don't even mention?

You want to "save" charter now? Do you think he's town all of a sudden?

...you know as far as I am concrened neko/sekinj are my top town reads, there has been no case whatsoever, this entire game presnted against them.... why do you Sleepypanda and Armix keep insiting there is? Give me one tangible fucking fact and I might change my vote.

I find this very interesting. Why do you bring this out of the blue? I don't recall armlx ever mentioning them as suspicious, but I did. You also fail to address the context in which I believe they are scum. I said they are most likely charter's scumbuddies. Go back and look at interactions between every pair and charter/Cephrir. The only two couples who do not attack charter/Ceph quite visibly, or at all, are ThAdmiral/DBE and neko/sekinj. I was role fishing when I continually called neko scum. I wanted to see how'd they react. In fact, I think I made a mistake somwhere. WWB/RR and neko/sekinj seems more likely to be a mafia pair than charter/neko. Charter is probably the final WW pair.

With WWB's erratic posting, constant voting and unvoting, attempts of buddying, strawmanning, it's a whole plethora of scumtells. I still need to reread and get my thoughts straight though.

[SleepyPanda]

@WWB, if you still want to argue about the english lesson, go ask RR. I'm sure he can explain it to you. Or I probably will when I make a formal case on you soon.

Dude, that page was the funniest page of the thread, imo and there was little to no coherent or intellectual thought, it was a pissing contest over semantics. The comment reads clear to me and if it did not read clear to you at first then I hope with my explanation you now understand.

I know what you were saying when you actually rephrased it so it actually made sense the way you meant it to be. I don't buy that it was just a pissing contest. You weren't testing to see if we were possible scum. You seemed to have been legitamately trying to convince others to vote armlx. To me, it seemed like you were trying to see what you could get away with. When no one agreed with you, or you discussed it with your lover(s), you gave up and started restating that you think charter and BM are scum.

I need to re-read their interactions with Sek/Neko and Thead/dbe, I didn't notice anything odd but I will take a look.

That's exactly the point. Almost no other people (that is alive) besides me, or RR, have tried pressuring Th/DBE, which shouldn't be, when they've been practically lurking the entire game.

I was asking a question, however as a few people have pointed out our opinions are irrelevant. It is the Moderators decision which is great.

Our opinions on DBE being replaced are not irrelevant. DBE is still posting at other games, EXCEPT THIS ONE. It's either active lurking or being useless. Neither benefits town. The only way it can possibly help town is if she is actually scum. One pair with both players having little to no contribution. If we go to LYLO, I DO NOT want them to be one of the other pairs.

[quote="BM]I dont use the Watched Topics feature of the site. I dont have any mafia related things on favourites.[/quote]
I find this hard to believe. How exactly do you keep track of your games? You have to be in at least over 5 games. Do you write the internet addresses of the game threads on a piece of paper or something? What if one of your games fall to like page 30 in the forums? Do you look through each page for it? Is not having this game on your 'Watched Topics" the reason for not posting?

[SleepyPanda]

I think I've already explained it in other posts but:
- Against charter wagon because I think his reactions to his wagon were what a frustrated townie would do.
- Against BM wagon because I think not submitting his daytalk is a null tell since it wouldn't be in the best interests of scum or town.

How come this isn't included?
-Against Crazy wagon because pointing out someone who has broken a rule does not connotate scummy or town behavior. It's a null tell.

Why are we even still talking about this?

Trying to stop flow of information. How does them talking affect you doing nothing?

So when there's something fishy about my daytalk times, I'm scum, but when it's yours, there's a perfectly logical explaination for it? Unlikely. You're just trying to weasel your way out of your plan that backfired.

Once again, you're making little to no sense. People were commenting on YOUR daytalk times, not the mod's.

I've added daytalking to the setup and will be PMing everyone links to quicktopics.

He added daytalk at 9:17 PM. That means ALL daytalk topics were already created. The times you're referencing is not the time of the daytalks being created, it's the time of him POSTING a message in it. What is more suspect is if times of said post is the same between lovers as I assume scum would all be using the same daytalk, thus having the same time for the mod's first post.

[SleepyPanda]

VOTE: BattleMage

For the last few weeks, there have not been any tangible and/or reasonable "scum" cases other than Charter/Cephrir and Battlemage/CW presented within this game in my opinion. I am starting to agree that Charter/Ceprir's reaction is more likely to be fustrated townie then scum. I still have questions however, I do not think they are a good lynch. I think if you connect the dots; Battlemage is the best lynch today. His relentless pursuit of crazy is odd to say the least, the fact that he took so long to present his daytalk and yet it still seems contrived as well as thin. He has been quite clearly an active lurker, barely avoiding prods and contribuitng little to the scumhunt. I am not completely convinced they are mafia partners with Sekinj/Neko, but I do feel they are the most likely scum.

I like how almost all your decisions are affected by the mod's daytalk time even though you say this,

Thanks, but I tend to agree with Armix for the most part. I don't think it's that cut and dry a scumtell, I think we need more connections to build a case as convincing as the one Adel built against Ice in my opinion.

[SleepyPanda]

I just spent the last hour re-reading and the evidence is stacked against BM/CW if you connect the dots and in my opinion it is the right lynch. I could elaborate more and will after others contribute, but I have spent far too much time on this game today already and have made my thought process known by posting in the thread as the day has progressed.

Looking forward to it. As of now, I'm not convinced, and will not be switching my vote.

[SleepyPanda]

wow... yes, that does look like a logical step regarding the times the mod posted the daytalk. and i DO think that BM is scum... however, knowing that I am not, I have to disagree with the next step being neko and I as scum.

How can you agree that it's logical to deduce scum from the mod's daytalk post time, then list yourself as an exclusion as if it's illogical? This is a black and white issue. There's no gray.

If you are an exception to the mod's post time, why are you so sure BM is scum from it alone and that he isn't an exception as well?

Also, refer to this:

I've added daytalking to the setup and will be PMing everyone links to quicktopics.

He added daytalk at 9:17 PM. That means ALL daytalk topics were already created. The times you're referencing is not the time of the daytalks being created, it's the time of him POSTING a message in it.

He created all daytalks together, then he decides to send messages to all scum daytalks that it's opened and not the town daytalks until later? That doesn't make sense.

[SleepyPanda]

SP, why are you defending BM so fiercely?

Because I'm sharing my thoughts. My post to sekinj isn't even defending BM as much as it is questioning sekinj's reasoning.

And why are you so ready to jump on his wagon? You're taking a gamble to see whether he's scum or not, but then again, you're scum as well so it probably wouldn't matter to you either way.

Your lover has been pushing his lynch for awhile now, and you have not changed your vote on him until now, which I'm assuming is because he hasn't convinced you BM is scum, yet this does?

[SleepyPanda]

SP, why are you defending BM so fiercely?

Because I'm sharing my thoughts. My post to sekinj isn't even defending BM as much as it is questioning sekinj's reasoning.

And why are you so ready to jump on his wagon? You're taking a gamble to see whether he's scum or not, but then again, you're scum as well so it probably wouldn't matter to you either way.

Your lover has been pushing his lynch for awhile now, and you have not changed your vote on him until now, which I'm assuming is because he hasn't convinced you BM is scum, yet this does?

Whoa there. Where am I "so ready to jump on his wagon?" I don't know where you're getting all this Charter is going to vote BM stuff from when there seems to be some good evidence coming up against you.

Here is an example of some actually scummy behavior, not whatever you invented against me and Ceph.

I confused your Crazy's post with yours.

Vote: WaltWishbone

I've found some scum guys!

No, you haven't.

WWB is a genious. There is the proof of scum from daytalking, not me and ceph.
This is destructor's first post time for our thread. I imagine all town's is the same (give or take a few minutes) 08-03-2008 10:07 PM ET (US).

This post, then Crazy saying the exact same thing then voting him.

You're not voting him, but this alone has convinced you that he is scum. "Proof as scum", what else does that imply?

[SleepyPanda]

How is everyone that is now voting BM based on the mod's first post in daytalk ignoring or not commenting on what I've said?

I've added daytalking to the setup and will be PMing everyone links to quicktopics.

Also, note that I've amended rules 1 and 12.

This post was made at 9:17 PM. This post is saying he's adding daytalks for

everyone

. That means the daytalks for town AND scum have all been created at 9:17 PM.

9:42pm - Sekinji/Neko & BattleMage/Clockwork
9:45pm - Armix/Sleepypanda & ?
10:07pm - crazy/KoC, Darox/DGB, ThAd/dbe, Charter/Cephrir, & WWB/RR

These are the times WWB gathered from the mod's first post in each daytalk. If by 9:17 PM, all daytalks have already been created, how does the time when the mod first posts in the daytalk prove anything? At 9:17, all daytalks are made, and the mod tells everyone [bin game[/b] that all the daytalks are open, yet in the actual daytalk topics, he only tells the scum that can use it? This is so completely asinine, it's not even funny.

[SleepyPanda]

Who is EA asking about SSF? It seems odd he would ask the Moderator here three days later, so is he talking to his scum partners?

Why is this odd? To me, after 3 days of his lover not saying anything, EA was unsure whether or not SSF had gotten the daytalk topic and was asking for clarification. If you look at SSF's post in this game, he has made posts on 8-04. If he was posting in game on the 4th, and does not post in the daytalk all the way until 8-06, would that not be a valid question to ask?

- Post 4: EA bollocks SSF for acting scummy.

This is valid. But then again, charter and Ceph have done the same thing. Ceph was advising charter to not push too hard for (someone's, if forget who) lynch or else it will seem like OMGUS, if I recall.

There is something odd about the fact, a little under 1/4 of his posts on 8/28 come before he is even replaced into the game.

I don't quite understand this. Can you rephrase it?

Post 8: 08-30-2008 01:19 PM ET (US)
- Post 8: I request prod on EA.
Post 9: 08-31-2008 11:01 AM ET (US)
- Post 9: I rant aggressively about him not talking to me.
Post 10: 09-11-2008 11:48 PM ET (US) (by this point, i'd long lost the link to the QT)
- Post 10: Mod announces ClockworkRuse is replacing EA.
Post 11: 09-16-2008 09:41 PM ET (US
- Post 11: ClockworkRuse asks me for help catching up, rather than reading 60 pages.

This seems to completely contradict this.

Clockwork, could you take a break from rereading and paraphrase your daytalk?

I'd really rather finish reading, I haven't really said anything to BM yet anyways and I've barely looked over the day talk. I'm more focused on forming my own opinions on the game first. He should be able to do it as I'm reading though.

Clockwork wrote this on Sept. 21, 2008 and seems to imply that he wants to read the entire thread and form his

own

opinions, however in daytalk he asks Battlemage and probably "his partners" to do it for him? Clockwork also states that he hasn't really spoken to BM nor read daytalk, however clearly he has seen the daytalk and posted there. It also comes across to me that clockwork feels the daytalk is lengthy, however there are only 11 posts at that point.

You seem to be reaching. Can this not also be explained if CW asked for BM's help at 9-17, post 11 in daytalk, and after BM has not responded in the daytalk, he thus has to reread all pages on his own, which would explain his response to RR? Where do you get that he has not read daytalk when in the same post you're quoting has him saying he skimmed the daytalk?

I agree with you that BM and CW have not really partcipated as much after they both replaced in, but I do not see this as a definitive reason to change my vote on them. They are becoming what ThAdmiral and DBE have been the entire game.

[SleepyPanda]

Panda, Clockwork's refusal to post daytalk = 100% scum. That's enough for me.

And it's not enough for me. The possibility of him not having realized that everyone else has already agreed to post daytalk is enough of a doubt that I don't want to switch my vote off someone who I believe is confirmed scum.

[SleepyPanda]

DarlaBlueEyes has agreed to continue playing! She's continues as if she had 3 prods.

*sigh*

Vote: charter

[SleepyPanda]

I forget, am I supposed to be a werewolf?

I don't know, check your role PM.

[SleepyPanda]

The one thing we all share; scum and town is we each got an introduction post in the daytalk thread from destructor. The times would be the same for scum and town alike in their individual threads. According to the posted daytalk, the following times were given for the introduction post.

9:42pm - Sekinji/Neko & BattleMage/Clockwork
9:45pm - Armix/Sleepypanda & ?
10:07pm - crazy/KoC, Darox/DGB, ThAd/dbe, Charter/Cephrir, & WWB/RR

All the other daytalks were made at the same time as well.

Still not any kind of conclusive evidence that Sekinj is scum.

No, they were made at 10:07

How many times does this need to be said? Those times you listed for everyone,

they are not indicative of when daytalks were made

. They are the times of the mod's

first post in the daytalk

. The mod added daytalk for

everyone at 9:17

.

[SleepyPanda]

I am not going to go into too much detail and quote the entire case made by Charter/Cephrir, however it was a good case. I am going to add my opinions on several issues and elaborate a bit on what they have already stated.

Good case by charter/Ceph? I'd prefer if you actually did go and quote this so called "good case" they had on us, because if my memory doesn't fail me, charter's case was based on using poor logic and "SP/armlx is scum, lynch them" being repeated about every other post of his. I've asked charter to list the reasons he wanted to vote us. He did not.

SleepyPanda
Regarding the Iceman lynch; I have brought this up before. Neither Sleepypanda or Armix voted for Iceman, I do not think there was any bussing on that lynch and I believe Icemans scum partners stayed off his wagon. SleepyPanda has responded by claiming that because he was on the Firestarter wagon and the Iceman wagon had enough votes, that this is a null tell.

How are you so positive that no one bussed? Give me any conclusive evidence that will back up that reasoning. You're just assuming with nothing else. I'm sure you're eventually going to say that you feel neko/sekinj bussed BM/CW though, with no more reason than you're giving here. You're basing your suspicions, and cases, on the mod's daytalk times. You say you aren't, but you clearly are.

There were only eight votes on Iceman at the time he voted for Fire; the wagon could have been easily derailed, especially after he commented on the quality of Adel's case. If he felt Iceman was the best lynch, why did he speak against Adel's case and why did he not vote for him?

Because iceman didn't reveal he was lovers with Fire until long after Adel first made her case against ice? Are you even bothering to take the time to look over what you're reading? I thought the case on Fire was solid; iceman's was not. If lynching ice meant Fire would be lynched, then obviously either would be the best lynch.

Iceman's wagon picked up pretty quickly, so scum could've stayed off and it wouldn't even matter.

Sleepypanda was perfectly aware of how quickly the iceman wagon formed and was extremely safe placing a vote on firestarter as it was dying while at the same time not voting for Iceman. He was quite safe "distancing" himself from Firestarter and iceman while still holding out hope they would avoid being lynched.

When I placed my vote on Fire, it was 5 votes on Fire, 9 on iceman. There were still a number of people on the dying Crazy wagon, as well as people who have not even casted a vote yet. You're saying I knew what those people thinking and that they would not join the Fire wagon? Once again, completely baseless. The people on the Crazy wagon or the people who have not voted could have easily went on the Fire wagon and pushed it over iceman's.

OMGUS votes; SleepyPanda accussed Charter and Cephrir or omgus, yet he has done the same things. After writting in his daytalk that he felt me and RR were town, he threatend to make a case against me because of a pissing contest with no substance that he contributed to just as much as myself. After Charter voted for Armix, he became his prime suspect and SP has dedicated most of his free time to seeing him lynched.

Haha, oh god, are you serious here? You're comparing what was said in daytalk to something that happened recently? Yes, I said I thought you two were town in daytalk. When was the date of that comment? 9-16. That's around

PAGE 60

. My opinions can't change once I make them?

Oh look, you say you think we're still town on Oct. 5, which was 4 days ago. Yet now, you're completely convinced we're scum. Sounds like OMGUS by your definition.

I never OMGUS vote only for the purpose of others voting me, or my lover in this case. I voted charter because I thought the case on him was sound. This is like saying everyone who first votes someone is immune to getting voted back. For example, regarding what happened with Fire voting RR on Day 1. RR's vote on Fire is not considered OMGUS to me as it was driven by reason, even though Fire voted RR first.

Armix

The daytalk prepared by Armix is extremely thin and seems contrived, as I have mentioned before. I believe he removed every post between August 2nd and September 3rd. Armix made the following comment in response to my comment regarding his thin daytalk.

And I've already explained why it was thin. We felt no real need to use it. It's that way because it is. There's nothing we could do about it.

Vote stands for lack of D/T

He states he is keeping his vote on Charter/Cephrir for lack of daytalk. He can't have it both ways.

I'm almost positive you're quoting this out of context. He was referring to how charter did not include the times when he posted his daytalk.

I'm lovers with arlmx. Still don't know what's with him. He hasn't said anything in daytalk since he left.

Mod, is it too early to prod him?

He's posting in other threads so maybe he forgot he was in this game.

Again, I believe, they simply deleted every post between August 3rd and September 2nd that included their interactions with Fire/Ice.

Once again, you're not bothering to check what you're reading, or simply misrepping. I was referring to armlx's first post, saying that he will be back "on Tuesday", which would've been on Aug. 18th. The 18th came and went without him having said anything up to the 21st.

Hi, see sig. Will be back to reread and what not by Tuesday.

I thought the case Charter presented had merit and his frustration that it was not given much credibility is even more understandable now. On the otherhand, SleepyPanda has seemed to come unglued since the timestamp post and is even more defensive then he has been this entire game. I think if you connect the dots, along with the timestamp of Destructors post in their daytalk being at 9:45pm, which was more then likely Fire/Ice's, I think they are the right lynch.

When you say "more defensive", you mean because I'm responding to cases against me? How should I handle them? Ignore them instead, like charter? Go ahead, make the same case on sekinj for being "more defensive" as well for responding to points you bring up against her too. She's defending herself, obvscum.

[SleepyPanda]

There were only eight votes on Iceman at the time he voted for Fire; the wagon could have been easily derailed, especially after he commented on the quality of Adel's case. If he felt Iceman was the best lynch, why did he speak against Adel's case and why did he not vote for him?

Because iceman didn't reveal he was lovers with Fire until long after Adel first made her case against ice? Are you even bothering to take the time to look over what you're reading? I thought the case on Fire was solid; iceman's was not. If lynching ice meant Fire would be lynched, then obviously either would be the best lynch.

And to elaborate more on this as I missed the other question.

Ice claimed he was lovers with Fire when he was at or around L-2. At L-2, there was no reason to place any additional votes onto him when there were still people who have not given their opinions. Did you see how that went? When DBE came back, she immediately voted iceman without bothering to look at the votecount, and placed ice to L-1. If anyone else had put ice to L-1, DBE would've unintentionally hammered him, even though in hindsight, it would've been the right move, but regardless, the point is we didn't know ice's alignment at the time, and giving everyone a chance to voice their opinions is important, as least to me.

[SleepyPanda]

Good case by charter/Ceph? I'd prefer if you actually did go and quote this so called "good case" they had on us, because if my memory doesn't fail me, charter's case was based on using poor logic and "SP/armlx is scum, lynch them" being repeated about every other post of his. I've asked charter to list the reasons he wanted to vote us. He did not.

Everybody here has read the case against you, my opinion is after re-reading is it's a good case.

Seriously, I'd like to read it again. If you want people to vote for us, and their case was so great, why not requote it so you can convince everyone else?

How are you so positive that no one bussed? Give me any conclusive evidence that will back up that reasoning. You're just assuming with nothing else. I'm sure you're eventually going to say that you feel neko/sekinj bussed BM/CW though, with no more reason than you're giving here. You're basing your suspicions, and cases, on the mod's daytalk times. You say you aren't, but you clearly are.

You Are correct, the TIMESTAMPS are a big part of the case, however as I have stated all along they are not the complete case. You not voting for iceman and then the BS you fed us afterwards and again today really makes me believe you are the other werewolves.

If it's BS, it's only coming from you. Saying that since I wasn't on the ice wagon means that I'm their partner holds as much water as me making a case saying that you are the last WW pair because you bussed ice. It's completely WIFOM, yet you're holding onto it as if it were the smoking gun.

What are you saying is BS? Did DBE not unintentionally place a vote without bothering to look at the vote count? Why did she immediately unvote when she realized it was L-1? Why did others criticize her for putting ice to L-1? It was because ice's lynch was pretty much guarenteed. There was no need to speed up his lynch when it was inevitable, and when people have not had a say yet. The only other leading wagon was Fire's. During Day 1, there had been no other competing wagons, besides Crazy's which died down when ice's came around. You're pushing BS points like this because of the daytalk times. Nothing else. You're trying to make something out of nothing and hope people follow.

No, once again you are manipulating the context of the conversation. you LIED, you posted in daytalk with Armix before September 2, however did not include it when you were asked to present your daytalk.

Your pony tricks don't work; it's all smoke and mirrors. I think your explanations are a weak attempt at saving your hide and I am not removing my vote from you.

Wait, who's the one manipulating context? Why are you not commenting on most of my response to your other post?

I'm lovers with arlmx. Still don't know what's with him.

He hasn't said anything in daytalk

since he left.

Mod, is it too early to prod him? He's posting in other threads so maybe he forgot he was in this game.

Hi, see sig. Will be back to reread and what not by Tuesday.

What exactly are you not understanding here? What does the bolded mean? He left and was suppose to come back Tuesday the 14th, yet by the 21st, he still hasn't returned. I'm saying he's not posting in game, or in daytalk.

In fact, you seem to ingore anything that doesn't help your case, regardless if it has merit or not. You completely ignored the prod that I asked the mod for. How is asking for a prod not indicative of absence?

[SleepyPanda]

I don't have all day to post here; reading here and daytalk, posting as much as I have take a lot of time. Everybody has read the case and points and can make up their mind from memory or go re-read themselves. My opinion is it was well thought out, had merit, and you are scum.

No, the reason why you don't want to quote their case is because it's nonexistant. Charter's case was entirely bad logic. How hard is it to set it so it only shows charter or Cephrir's post, then click the quote button?

Way to only highlight the part of the comment that works for you. Wink

Really scummy not highlighting SINCE if you are going to tell me you included that word in the statement for any other reason then to indicate that you had spoken in daytalk prior to your September 3rd post you are full of it.

Go ahead, continue arguing over semantics. When the game ends, and if daytalks are posted, go take a look.

[SleepyPanda]

No, it is because I am willfull and lazy and it does not need to be reposted, as everyone is free to go read for themselves and decide if it is a case with merit or not. Quite telling me, what I am think or why I am doing things when it is so obvious, my opinion is it is a good case. Wink

I'm going to start a wiki entry and dub it the "Charter defense"; "I'm to lazy to do so and so", "I can't be bothered to contribute in a game I joined", that'll be great.

Stop putting words in your mouth? You don't like that? How is that different from your supposed case against me? "Oh, you're lying here", "This is what you really meant when you said this". Yeah, I'm not going to stop. You won't quote their case because it's nonexistant.

At least summarize their case then, in your own words. No need for quotes, no need for referencing. You HAVE to remember their case if you thought it was so great. Don't even try and use the charter defense now. You have time to constantly reply to my posts, you should have time to sum the major points in their case.

[SleepyPanda]

yeah, so all the knowledge you gained from reading, you won't even share any. Great help that is.

I feel like I'm a parrot. What difference does it make if you believe I'm scum? Other people are not convinced. They can't all be scum as well. If the case was as great as you say, what harm would repeating it do?

Excuses piled on top of BS. Need to include an addendum in my wiki article.

[SleepyPanda]

@SleepyPanda - I'll tell you what, I will probably have some free time later this evening or tomorrow, I will go back and post the merits of his case if you do something for me. Can you reword this for me.

Go ahead, continue arguing over semantics.

To me, it sounds like you are saying this;

"Yes you are correct WWB, by using the word since, my comment does imply that I talked to Armix in daytalk prior to September 2nd, however thats not what I meant it was a semantics error on my part."

Can you please reword that for me?

You're saying the word 'since' implies that we have talked in our daytalks before. I'm saying it doesn't. We're arguing over the definition of the word. Thus we're arguing over semantics. Do I need to hold your hand so you can go to the bathroom as well?

@Sp - So can you quote for me your case against charter?

I've done this before already. My post #93.

[SleepyPanda]

It does, you are wrong. When you finsih school and actually graduate, then you can tell me all about it. Wink

English isn't my first language, but I'm still pretty sure I have a better grasp of it than you do.

English 101. The word 'since' specifies a time between a given point, which in this case would be when "he left", and the present. The action would be "posting in daytalk". Is there any mention about what happens before he left? No. From then on, it's assumptions, which seems to be the only thing you're good at.

I have an idea, wanna get my goat and end this argument. You are town right, why don't you post your daytalk right now prove me wrong, you will be modkilled and if you are town, we will look really stupid.

I have to say, your logic is quite something. It's right up there on par with charter's.

I'm also waiting on my summary of charter's case.

[SleepyPanda]

Because I asked him twice over the weekend and at the beginning of the week and he completely ignored my question, so, why should I answer his request?

That's right, it's a request. A request that benefits me in no way. If it's a good case as you say, it strengthens your own. You're not hurting me by not posting it. And even so, you refuse to post it multiple times, as well as asking for something in return, as if this is a trade.

[SleepyPanda]

Yes, it does benefit you if you are town and we catch scum. If you have a case against them why are you not posting it?

I was only talking about charter's case, not neko and sekinj. Why are you just repeating everything I've said about you and charter's case on us? If you're saying we're scum, I see no reason for you to be so reluctant to post charter's case, which is what I've been saying this entire time.

Regarding sekinj/neko, I never got around to making a formal case. I'm not holding anything back. You're lost in your own world again. I've already explained that I was only fishing for a response from them, and I'm positive I've said this before and that you even acknowledged it. I only had a feeling they could be possible scum. It was also due to their interactions, or lack of, with charter/Ceph. I also noted the same lack of interaction between charter/Ceph and Admiral/DBE, which is what also made me unsure to pursue it further. And obviously since BM flipped mafia, that point is now moot.

[SleepyPanda]

I am not reluctant, the case I prepared has plenty of merit on it's own.

If you think your case has plenty of merit, so be it. We're not talking about your case, we're talking about charter's. You refused to quote or summarize their case at least three times. Then you tried to barter for it, telling me to do this and do that and then you'll post it. If you weren't being reluctant, you would've posted it the first time I asked.

What is the first huge quote suppose to be? Armlx is pointing out charter's scummy behavior and then charter follows it up with his broken record response. How about you say what points they are trying to bring up in each one because I have no idea what I'm suppose to be looking at.

Oh, look at what I found, armlx wasn't on icemans wagon, and was on Kloud's and HP's. Now he's on another townie's as well! Are the rest of you guys going to let him get away with lynching townies at will? Seriously?

This has already been beaten to death. All the reading you said you've done, you should've seen this discussed many times. Do you actually see that charter was on kloud's wagon? He also said he was willing to vote HP just because everyone else was. However, at the end of the day, he chose to put his vote on someone who had no other votes, making it completely useless. RR was on both townie wagons as well. This must mean both of you are scum.

And again, I have no idea why you're just quoting the block of text from Cephrir. How is him answering my questions a case against me? Unless you're referring to this one specific line here?

This post strikes me as an attempt to look town while lynching a townie but I will answer nonetheless.

Do you realize how many people in this game won't contribute unless asked to? I hate to break it to you, but this is not a case. Even if he's scum, he can offer valuable clues as to who his scum partners are. If this is what you think is noteworthy, might I remind you of what you just tried to do? You tried to leech information about sekinj/neko from me while still advocating my lynch. Sounds like the above.

[SleepyPanda]

So when I ask you to show me charter/Ceph's case, you say these are the major points?

Honestly, I don't understand how no one else wants you dead.

This post strikes me as an attempt to look town while lynching a townie but I will answer nonetheless.

These are opinions. You keep saying they hold merit. Opinions are not facts. They are not points; they are not evidence. I find it hard to believe you have trouble telling the difference. I disagree with you, you call it smoke and mirrors. You're using daytalk times as a crutch to build a flimsy case on it, as well as even using opinions to support it.

Go ahead, ask other people. Are the quotes above opinion?

Here, I found some more quotes for you from charter that you can use for your case:

Hey, look at that, armlx has found the next few scum for us too!
I can't belive people are buying in to his bs.

Iceman was scum. I am not.

RR and armlx are scum. Lynch them.

[SleepyPanda]

This is actually quite sad. Opinions are extremely important, so what if we throw our opinions out there? That's how mafia is played.

This seems like something scum would say so they can form a case on nothing but opinions. This is only my opinion, but hopefully if I repeat it enough, it will eventually convince everyone else. Let's all vote charter because of this.

Opinions alone do nothing. Opinions supported by facts, combined to form a case is different.

I had a feeling that nek/sekinj were scum. Is that alone enough to vote them? If you say yes here, that is sad.

[SleepyPanda]

Wow, you are total scum Sleepypanda. You just totally manipulated my entire fucking post, only scum do that. Everybody is free to re read my post for themsleves, not your diatribe, and it clearly illstrates the merits of their case are between septemeber 23 and 25th, not just those two points.

I asked you for charter's case because I did not see it. You reply by saying you don't need to because your case has enough merit. This is not a reason for not posting his case. The two are not related. When you eventually agree to post "points" from their case, they are nothing but opinions. You also add no addtional commentary, only quoting their posts in their entirety, as if that alone is sufficient. You also keep saying just to read everything between the 23-25th. I see nothing there besides more opinion filled posts like what you have quoted.

Instead of just vaguely referring to the posts between the 23rd and 25th, how about you actually post their case

in your own words

. Can you not do this because their case is only filled with opinions instead of actual reasons? You keep repeating that they had such a great case. Why can you not summarize it into specific points?

@Knights - So Sleepypanda/Armix, Sekinj/Neko should get a free pass to the end of the game? You refuse to vote based on the timestamp theory. So you wanna lose this game on principal. I layed out a good case against Sleepypanda/Armix, I really wish you would please read it again.

Why do you keep repeating that we're getting a free pass? Who else besides you agrees with this? The only thing KoC or RR have said is that they think charter should be the lynch

TODAY

. They're not talking about tomorrow, or the day after that. You act as if we do not get lynched today, we'll never get lynched. The only reason you're attempting to build a case against us is because of the timestamps, which the mod has already spoken against. I also suggest people reread your case, to see how poorly it has been done.

[SleepyPanda]

@walt - I think your suspicion against SP is justifed, but I think charter/ceph is the better lynch today. charter/ceph have been acting a lot scummier for a lot longer that SP. it may very well be that charter/ceph are mafia and SP are werewolves.

You say I've been scummy. Please point to examples instead of just saying so.

[SleepyPanda]

Ok you obvilousley don't get it. Perhaps because English is not your first language, but I made the points I wanted to make in a very long post that took a lot of time to compose. I illustared the points I wanted to make on Charters case/Cephrir, I did not expcet you to say, yep I am scum and I never said they were a huge part of the case. I have answered your question to my satisfaction and in a way it is clear to the others who are considering voting for you.

Stop bringing up that I might not understand because English isn't my first language. I understand. There's no language barrier.

What you've illustrated were charter and Ceph's opinions. Tell me if I'm wrong. Do you think they aren't opinions? Quoting opinions does not make it clear. That's why I'm asking you to summarize their case in your own words. You ignored my request once again, which I assume means you won't be doing it. Why not?

The more you hold onto opinions, citing them as legitmate reasons, to try and get us lynched is only convincing me that you are indeed the other scum pair.

[SleepyPanda]

I was waiting for the OMGUS, you STOP bringing it up then. I have answered your question clearly, if it is not to your satisfaction there is nothing I can do, however nobody here expected you to say yes we are the scum.

The boy who cried OMGUS. Am I voting you? Am I saying you're scum for no apparent reason?

If you did not say either "I think they are opinions" or "I think they are not opinions", you have not answered it clearly, or at all from what I can tell.

You address everything in my post except about summarizing charter's case. Guess you really can't do it.

[SleepyPanda]

The more you hold onto opinions, citing them as legitmate reasons, to try and get us lynched is only convincing me that you are indeed the

other

scum pair.

I guess it's possible you cosider charter completely confirmed scum, but that sentence still doesn't sit too well with me.

He's the person who I'm most sure is scum. I have no reason to think otherwise.

Are you telling me you are voting charter when you have doubts whether or not he's actually scum? If you have doubts, I'd like to hear them.

[SleepyPanda]

Walt, stop misreping me. I never said I would never vote for SP/Armlx or Sek/Neko, I said I couldn't see any valid case against them at this point beyond the timestamps, and that I wouldn't policy lynch based on timestamps alone.

It's not misrepping you, it's a question, thanks for clarifying.

Nice attempt to try and downplay it. It seemed like you were asking a pretty rhetorical question to me.

The only person who I can see that is willing to give a "free pass" is you. With charter, who majority seems to agree that he has been quite scummy at one time or another, you on the other hand, are willing to attribute all he has done to him just being frustrated. Even with what happened in Day 1 regarding Crazy and his scumtell, you were not willing to let Crazy get a "free pass". Why now? Why charter? The possibility of him being a frustrated townie has been brought up before long ago, and even so, at that time, you continued to vote charter, pressed for his lynch, but now you're doing a complete 180. This seems very much like an attempt at buddying. No one else is defending charter. However, suddenly you decide to; you vote with him, you say what a great case he has presented, out of nowhere. Scum attempting to work together? Mhmm.

SCUM ARMLX/SLEEPYPANDA

Just make sure you lynch them after me, I'm not going to make a huge case because no one will listen to me anyway, pretty much the whole reason I haven't said anything of merit for a while now, but rest assured that they are, in fact, scum.

No one listens to you because every one of your posts has no real content. How does this post differ from the dozens of copies you've been posting over and over? More excuses to try and explain why you've been completely useless too, I see.

[SleepyPanda]

I like how armlx + SP + sekinj = almost everyone who wants to lynch us today.

You mean as opposed to everyone else who is only voting so because of timestamps? Silly us for using our heads.

Nice attempt to create an issue out of thin air.

Haha, if you say so. Creating an issue out of thin air is still infinitely better than creating a case out of opinions.

Although fine, if I misrepped, then your statement about posting in daytalk to Armix becomes valid. You can't have it both ways or only the way that works best for scum ajenda. In otherwords, you can't use a semantics defense for your comment if it does not work for mine. We can argue these issues until we are blue in the face, in the end you have to connect the dots and make your own opinion on what is an actual error and what is bullshit.

Yawn. Logical fallacy.

I have not given him a free pass, if after your lynched, if for some insane reason you flip town. Charter/Cephrir would be one of my top reads going into the day. However, you are not going to flip town. This "scum working together" is the most absurd comment of the day, you don't think very well do you? So the two oppossing scum teams are working together now, what are we using secret code?

If we do get lynched, I want a 5 page essay of you apologizing.

Yes, you're using secret codes. That wink was just a secret message. You don't need communication to just vote along with them. As long as it's beneficial to you, you can just follow behind him, which is what you're doing.

As it is, I think you will get your wish, Charter and Cephrir are going to be lynched and if they flip town I am going to drop on you like a ton of bricks if they do.

Well, why don't you speed up the process and vote him then? Even though charter is the deadline lynch, you won't because you want to keep him alive.

[SleepyPanda]

He's my best suspect as well, by far, and I'd really like to finally see him lynched. That does not mean I'm sure enough to auto-assume he's scum before I see the results, being 100% sure of anything in a setup with no power roles is never the right move.

I never called him confirmed scum. I never called you confirmed scum either. I was making an educated guess.

Emperical evidenve or absolute truth is based on fact, in otherwords something tangible that can be proved such as a "Telephone record". It can be proved someone lied about calling someone else if a telephone record is produced. There is little such luck here with the exception of the TIMESTAMPS. That is FACT and the only FACT that has been introduced this entire game. I agree it can be argued and there are certain things that could make it not indicative of scum, however very few. So my OPINION based on this FACT and the other evidence collected against you is that you are scum!

What exactly are you talking about here? How are a player's actions not considered a "record"? I'm voting charter right now. Is that not fact? Are you going to argue that I'm not voting him? This one and only FACT you are basing your opinions on, it is the same FACT that the mod DISPROVED?

I didn't think you would agree your town right? Wink

Go wiki logical fallacy. It has your name all over it.

Now you think we are using secret code? Talk about a stretch.

It was sarcasm. Notice the sentences immediately after saying the complete opposite?

While I disagree with Walt's case, I'm starting to dislike how Panda keeps using a patronizing tone that's goading him on. This back and forth stopped being informative a long time ago and is now just an absurd lash out.

I disagree that it is not informative. Some bits might be irrelavent, but I'm able to get a better read than I would if he stopped talking.

You seem to just want him to stop talking altogether. What for? What else is on the table now that needs discussion? Do we all have such a one-track mind that we can only have one discussion going at a time?

This is a weak argument, and frankly sounds a bit desperate.

Desparate how? To get charter lynched? When he is already majority lynch at deadline?

Basing a case solely on opinion is weak. You seem to disagree. So is basing a case on opinion alone perfectly fine?

[SleepyPanda]

I obviously can't "prove" anything, but I will once again repeat the fact that they are actually scum (go ahead and call me out for it again SP, I'll go ahead and not respond again). No one can in this game, there's no cops or power roles, but this will be the third townie lynch they've been on. They will have been on half of one scum wagon. That will be their entire contribution to this game. Three mislynches and half of one correct lynch. How is it possible to ignore that blatent of not helping the town?

Go ahead and continue being absolutely useless by repeating the same thing over and over.

Who else was on two townie wagons so far? RR, ThAdmiral and oh, your lover Cephrir. This must be undeniable fact that you two are scum.

[SleepyPanda]

People are still voting charter???

And I assume you're still saying he's town based on gut feeling?

@WWB, that's right, continue being a complete idiot and arguing about semantics. I'm sure everyone here besides you accepts the term 'fact' when referring to actions or something that has happened in this game. Not something like, "Oh, WIFOM cannot be proven so that means it's not a fact, hurdur."

What are scumtells? Actions that are commonly used by scum. All of the things you've mentioned, why are there already accepted names for each of those specific actions? Because they're common scumtells. Of course scumtells aren't 100%, but what is? Even if it's not 100%, it's a tool to use as a gauge. Show me one game that doesn't mention WIFOM or OMGUS or bussing or distancing or bandwagoning. None can be completely proven, but it's still widely referred to.

Go on, I know you want to start arguing about what opinions mean now.

[SleepyPanda]

Because apparently we're not playing Mafia, we're playing TimeStamp.

Oh, who didn't want to post the times? Oh that was Charter? Stop whining about it.

Sometimes I wonder if you are actually being serious.

DarlaBlueEyes hasn't posted in over 48 hours and will be replaced. =/

DBE hasn't posted in 4 days shy of

a month

, not just 48 hours. About time, I say.

Ah! I get it. The time that the QT was started. Well I have 10:07, too.

Thus we should lynch armlx/Panda.

Not charter. At least, there is no reason to lynch charter yet. Note that both armlx and SleepyPanda are voting against charter.

Two more votes on Panda, please.

And why is it of note that we are voting charter? Charter has been scummy for a long time. We were voting charter even before this timestamp business. I don't know where you're going with that.

You still have not given any reason to not vote charter. What did you say to convince Darox? Why won't you tell everyone else? Are you going to continue telling everyone to stop voting charter and at the same time keep stalling on your reasons for doing so?

[SleepyPanda]

You still have not given any reason to not vote charter.

Scumlogic.

And this is an attempt at strawmanning.

Someone is scummy. Someone else says don't vote them. So the first person should unvote automatically? Because they were told to? Please. You play a better game by just repeating we're scum constantly.

[SleepyPanda]

Obviously the explanation is you don't think they are scum.

Continue strawmanning.

I think you're scum, and have been saying so for quite some time. Darox recently said DGB has a compelling case that you are not. What are you having trouble understanding? If DGB has a case that proves you are not scum, why should I not be asking to hear what it is?

I don't know why I'm explaining this

zzzz.

[SleepyPanda]

I'm going to go ahead and say this is quite sad. Please tell me how we're scum with how we've played. Armlx was one of the first, if not the first, to say that Crazy was confirmed town. Last time I checked, scum want people dead, not call people confirmed townies. I've been wanting DBE replaced for a long time. WWB managed to convince the mod to let her stay, and what use was it? We were stuck with a useless player for a month. How does trying to get a person who isn't contributing replaced suppose to benefit scum? With CWR and his not posting daytalk, I was probably one of the most staunch people to oppose lynching him on that alone. Granted it was the right move, I felt it was a bit too premature to lynch only based on that. How does trying to prevent an easy lynch helpful to scum? If you want to say we're their mafia partners, go ahead. But I'm sure the same people who would say this are also voting us based on the timestamps theory, which would imply that we are not mafia, but werewolves. I see no reason for one scum faction to defend another. I've also been oppose to his lynch prior to the timestamp theory being made public, so if we are indeed werewolves, we have no knowledge that they are mafia.

With how lazy most of this town is, I'm sure you'll all have tons of fun trying to find the rest of scum. If we are lynched, I'm still recommending everyone look at charter/Ceph pair. Besides them, the most likely scum pair I believe are WWB/RR or sekinj/neko, and possibly Darox/DGB for how they've played recently.

[SleepyPanda]

Charter... not so much. Considering that you've done most of what you're accusing armlx of, I'd say you're still scummiest.

Where have I buddied up? Where have I been on all the townie lynches?

You haven't been on all townie lynches, but Cephrir has. Where are you going with it? I'm so sick of your ridiculously horrible logic.

[SleepyPanda]

But I'm sure the same people who would say this are also voting us based on the timestamps theory, which would imply that we are not mafia, but werewolves.

That theory clearly implies you're mafia (same timestamp as BM), no idea where you're getting this from.

And where do you get this from? We have different times than BM. Show me otherwise.

If we are lynched, I'm still recommending everyone look at charter/Ceph pair. Besides them, the most likely scum pair I believe are WWB/RR or sekinj/neko, and possibly Darox/DGB for how they've played recently.

That's everyone but lurkers ThAd/Darla. Not too keen.

I worded that wrong. I'm saying those pairs deserve more attention. Besides me, I see no one else pressuring you or WWB, practically this entire game.

[SleepyPanda]

Congrats to town. Even with the timestamps, I still had a lot of fun playing this game.

Good job to WWB for spotting the timestamps tell and to charter for sticking to his decisions. I still think your case was extremely weak, but you made the right call:D. I apologize if I came off rude at times, I was just playing the part.

Great job as well to neko and sekinj. I really didn't have them pegged as the second mafia pair before the timestamps. The early bussing completely threw me off. Did you buss your partners that early because they were so inactive or did you all agree that that was the best move?

I thought the daytalking worked well. In retrospect, I don't think allowing even paraphrasing was a good idea. It detracted from the content in thread and turned the game into something other than Mafia. While the fake day talk sek/neko and armlx/Panda produced sounded pretty convincing, it was an unnecessary burden that didn't really enrich the setup and made a difficult game to win even harder.

I'd like some feedback about the deadline policy. I think it was necessary to contain this game and stop it growing to hundreds of pages, but I noticed some criticism of it earlier in the game.

Also, I've used activity requirements in other games I have/am modding and I'm still trying to figure if they're helping. How did you guys feel about them? Did they help? Did they make the game better? Worse? Did they have no effect?

With the daytalk, even though we didn't use it much, I like the idea of it. I agree that paraphrasing shouldn't be allowed. As scum, like you said, it was an unnecessary burden. Even as town, I still wouldn't like it. I think it takes too much away from the actual game itself.

I liked the deadline policy and activity requirements. I don't know if it's regular to have that many people replace in a game this size, but besides having to constantly double check to see who's replacing who, I don't have a problem with it. You did a great job of having to replace so many. Thanks for modding as well!

[SleepyPanda]

Good catch on the SP "since" slip, it actually was a slip. I completely forgot about that post when doing the day talk summary.

How I explained it was what I originally meant. I don't see how it's a slip either. You did include the 9-02 post in your daytalk paraphrase. We also never spoke before that.

[SleepyPanda]

I started a thread in mafia discussions about the utility of daytalking and scum communication & team work: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9656

I think if I was town, I would've used the daytalk more. That or if both scum pairs are alive. With only one scum pair alive, there's not much coordination needed. Everyone becomes a lynch candidate. The only probable teamwork needed would be pairs that would be beneficial to keep alive.

[SleepyPanda]

You mean like, if one scum is lynched, they can decide who their lover is among the other 3? That does sound interesting. I'm sure it would add more depth and strategy to the game.

[SleepyPanda]

I suppose an early massclaim would just break it down to the same mechanics of this game. I don't really see it as disastrous though. The scum pairs would just claim lovers with one another. If one scum goes down, they would have the option of picking who goes down with them.