Open 784 - Hard-Boiled (Town Wins!)

[Deimos27]

VOTE: word321
To create a favourable vote distribution that precipitates effective scumhunting, of course.

[Deimos27]

Marashu what alignment did you roll

[Deimos27]

Hey word. Did you find my scum magnet? I seem to have lost it.

Ah right of course

[Deimos27]

pi, how do you feel about early wagons?

[Deimos27]

Midari you voting yourself is creating a suboptimal vote distribution that hinders scumhunting

[Deimos27]

It is of utmost importance to our winning chances that you cease this behaviour at once, excepting the case that your role PM contains the colour red.

[Deimos27]

I'm not about to have this conversation

[Deimos27]

Thanks, mod

[Deimos27]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ceejay
Townlean brassherald for making a high-quality RVS vote.

[Deimos27]

Hopefully the hill isn't too steep

[Deimos27]

Both are important, but I like initial even distributions since they're harder to return to later.

Regardless of which you prefer, self-voting is counterproductive because it denies info from the slot that is self-voting both in terms of their voting behaviour as well as from their reactions (since intentional artificial self-pressure isn't exactly notorious for coming from players that are likely to provide strongly AI reactions to said pressure).

[Deimos27]

ceejay do you have meta with Battle Mage?

[Deimos27]

My experience is also exclusively of town D1 self-votes

[Deimos27]

From what I've seen of you Battle Mage, it's completely within your meta to play suicidally in RVS, and I don't really know what I gain from voting you for that.

[Deimos27]

VOTE: word321
To create a favourable vote distribution that precipitates effective scumhunting, of course.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ceejay
Townlean brassherald for making a high-quality RVS vote.

Mind running this one by me? Feels like you're trying to stay neutral and keep even distribution, but I don't see to what end.

"Staying neutral" is an odd way to put it. I genuinely think my vote is currently in a good location, regardless of vote distributions.
If you haven't heard why even distributions are good in RVS, I'd rather not explain it, since that can undermine the strength of the technique.

[Deimos27]

I am assuming that brassherald's reason for voting ceejay is the same as mine. If not, I rescind my townlean.

[Deimos27]

I thought the cool kids were voting Midari, and you were trying to be a trendsetter by voting someone else

[Deimos27]

My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

[Deimos27]

I like pressure on ceejay here because he showed up for one RVS vote on what I perceive to be a suboptimal target, and then proceeded to disappear. I would like pressure on pi for similar reasons.

[Deimos27]

The lack of engagement with the game, despite there already being content to discuss, and voting outside the leading wagons. These things are off-putting to me.

[Deimos27]

Voting ceejay is cool.
Last time I played with him he was scum and I put him last on my PoE. Massive L.

[Deimos27]

Voting ceejay is cool.
Last time I played with him he was scum and I put him last on my PoE. Massive L.

except that was not the only time u played with cj; on Newbie 1998 u also played with cj, he opened the game with a oneliner vote and u opened the game late commenting about every player except cj, wich was town on that ocasion, so Im inclined to blv u r indeed aquatained enough with his playstyle to know his attitude is not alignment indicative nor will u get anything more for voting this early that guy. It is also a fact that effectiveness and optimality of a player r most of the time not related to his alignment too, so that is hardly an argument to heighten the scummness of a raw vote. So where does ur fixation for cj come from, rly?

I consider it obvious that unengaged, inactive players should be pressured to generate content so that they become easier to sort. And I'm not fixated on anyone. I thought pi would have been just as good as ceejay, but ceejay already had a vote on him.

[Deimos27]

The lack of engagement with the game, despite there already being content to discuss,

and voting outside the leading wagons. These things are off-putting to me.

I would say sorry but we both know what is happening here. Also why does it feel like there are a lot of just fluff in this game?

I'm not sure why you feel inclined to say sorry, but I'll expound on my initial statement there because it seems a little unclear still.
What I'm looking for in RVS is people voting strategically and making comments that appear to come from a gamesolving disposition.
Pi's and ceejay's votes lacked this.

[Deimos27]

Anyway since ceejay doesn't have meta with Battle Mage I'll assume he simply knows no better
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pi

[Deimos27]

This is much townier from Drew than our last game.

[Deimos27]

Midari, what's your experience with mafia?

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Worcestershire, do you intend on playing the game?

[Deimos27]

Midari, what's your experience with mafia?

Specifically, have you rolled scum in forum mafia before?

[Deimos27]

Marashu, you got any reads yet?

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Worcestershire, do you intend on playing the game?

I'm already playing.

A naked vote on Battle Mage wasn't much of a contribution

[Deimos27]

Marashu, you got any reads yet?

Right now I've got Drew and votato as town. slight TL on word as well. Tuxedo Mask is giving me a gut scum ping. I'm having a hard time reading brass. Battle Mage is feeling off, but other people are saying this is normal play. Midari's play is erratic, but I'm gathering that some of that is a bit, and the on-topic posts have been pretty alright. Null pretty much everywhere else.

Why aren't you voting Tux, if he is your scumlean?

[Deimos27]

either way, I still dnt buy completely deimos attitude. I feel the particular questions he has made r too generic in nature, too general, and easily replicable as scum to feign an investigation of sorts (im talkin about things like 48, 168 and 173 as the most generic, others can be replicable). Im also not convinced of the actual intent behind the even distribution of votes; do u have any game when u have openly upheld such an opinion?
VOTE: Deimos
ninjaed by the above

I have openly upheld this opinion before and I can name the player I learned it from, which is LuckyLuciano. We are out of RVS so I can explain. Even distributions create possibly AI situations in who breaks the ties and how. This can then transition into wagons to create pressure. Immediate wagons are fine, but they bypass this extra step and the added info it can provide.

[Deimos27]

Battle Mage you're not serious with townreading someone for voting you, right?

[Deimos27]

pi, how do you feel about early wagons?

That depends on the context. If it so happened that four people voted a player because "well I wanted to" then that isn't giving us much game-related information. On the other hand, if someone gets voted by people early on for scumslipping, then that could be something that would be worth getting information from.

I was referring specifically to RVS wagons.

I've heard self- voting in rvs is almost always done by scum. Can anyone confirm that?

I feel like simply voting yourself would be something that would be done more by scum than by town, as scum would have more reasons to self-vote I think.

Since this self-vote occurred in RVS, I'm annoyed that you're generalising it to any self-vote (this results in examples like scum self-hammers entering the picture and making the RVS self-vote look much worse than it actually is). This is besides the point at best and shading Midari at worst.

[Deimos27]

Mind running this one by me? Feels like you're trying to stay neutral and keep even distribution, but I don't see to what end.

Marashu, if you remembered this coming up in Newbie 2002, why did you need me to explain it again?

[Deimos27]

I see what you're getting at.

[Deimos27]

My early gut townleans are on Drew, Midari, superbowl, Battle Mage, and Worcestershire.
Tux might be scum but pi is scummier.
Everyone else floating around null.

I am now accepting questions (though I won't answer them until tomorrow because it is late o'clock).

[Deimos27]

Explain BM?

I think townleaning Worcestershire based off a naked vote against him is pretty nuanced and not the easiest to fake as scum. And his reasoning there is quite resonant with me, now that I believe I've caught onto it.

It's not a strong read.

[Deimos27]

Midari Ikishima (5) - Tuxedo Mask, Midari Ikishima, Marashu, word321, Doctor Drew

This was your wagon at its peak (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'll pose this question to the group is scum on this wagon. I think that's likely. If so, who and how many? My gut says just one, between Marshu and Word. That or the wagon looked to carry it's self well enough, and scum wanted to avoid it.

I had the same thought about the Midari wagon, Tux, but I've been holding on to it.

[Deimos27]

Also, Deimos......your posting seems less analytical this game(besides one of your earlier posts). I have a gut feel that you are just giving reads for the sake of giving out reads. I guess I feel you are not trying to sort. I dunno, need to interact more directly with you.

I usually pick up in this department as the game goes on.
Please understand that I'm being just as analytical internally — the difference is in what I'm choosing to out at this stage of the game.

[Deimos27]

I've heard self- voting in rvs is almost always done by scum. Can anyone confirm that?

I feel like simply voting yourself would be something that would be done more by scum than by town, as scum would have more reasons to self-vote I think.

Since this self-vote occurred in RVS, I'm annoyed that you're generalising it to any self-vote (this results in examples like scum self-hammers entering the picture and making the RVS self-vote look much worse than it actually is). This is besides the point at best and shading Midari at worst.

uhm, not at all what i said. obviously scum self-hammers mostly come from caught scum. i'm talking about votes that aren't self-hammers though, particularly early votes or even RVS votes. FoS deimos for choosing such a bad way to defend the self-vote.

Are you aware that I am quoting pi in that post? It has nothing to do with you, votato.

[Deimos27]

Isn't it weird that you talk about RVS self-voting, because that's what happened in this game, and he responds with reference to a more general "simply voting yourself"?

[Deimos27]

I'm sort of just waiting on pi to play the game. In general this is a disappointing lack of activity for a 13p.

[Deimos27]

@Mod

, superbowl is counted twice in the last VC

[Deimos27]

Anyone online?

[Deimos27]

Lemme check

[Deimos27]

I get noobtown vibes from Midari. The most recent posts are weird but consistent with the image I have of her. I actually somewhat like the lack of self-awareness from newer players. But there was one post in particular that I thought was town-AI, let me pull it up

[Deimos27]

This was your wagon at its peak (correct me if I'm wrong), so I'll pose this question to the group is scum on this wagon. I think that's likely. If so, who and how many? My gut says just one, between Marshu and Word. That or the wagon looked to carry it's self well enough, and scum wanted to avoid it.

I haven't sorted Marashu out yet roughly a null read at the moment. Word does seem scummy for other reasons and I don't believe there was more then one on my wagon. You could say Drew could be scum for the hop back onto it after not liking me posting anime gifs. I'm

Fos: word

For the moment but I'm much happier and interested in Pii due to just not really doing much thus far and raising questions.

I liked this from Midari. I think noobscum are more inclined to anti-omgus their voters but she brings up multiple possibilities for who the scum on her wagon might be and I have my own suspicions of word and pi so those resonate with me.

[Deimos27]

Interesting take. That's not how I interpreted her use of "clueless", but I could be wrong so I would like to see how Midari explains that.

[Deimos27]

The "I don't plan on changing that" is also a disgusting thing to say in general.
I just don't really put much weight in tonal gutpings from what I perceive to be newbie slots.

[Deimos27]

Midari, what's your experience with mafia?

Specifically, have you rolled scum in forum mafia before?

I have a few games on site if you wanted to look for meta. But I don't believe in meta. If that's what you are asking.
I think we can all change the way we play from one side to another and has no bearing.

And I've been scum before and I've been town and some PRs.

Based on this post it does actually sound like she has off-site experience so maybe I should be more suspicious than I am.

[Deimos27]

Not sure if "side" is a typo for "site" cause that sentence doesn't really make sense as "side"

[Deimos27]

deimos, are you enjoying this game so far? give details

I was quite unsatisfied with the lack of engagement from other players. I'm glad to see that there's at least about two pages of content since yesterday.

I'm having marginally less fun playing mafia in general in the last few days, mainly because I'm the kind of person who obsesses about one thing at a time at the expense of all other commitments and right now I'm studying contemporary metaethics.

If you are hoping to glean AI content from this post I'm sorry to disappoint you because I can tell that the reason you're asking me this is because I mentioned last game that I don't like playing scum. And I can confirm for you that I am enjoying this game more than I would be as scum, that's for sure.

[Deimos27]

Big bad catch-up post:

This is word for word what I said during D1 of Newbie 2002 after my V/LA and it's slightly disturbing.
.

[Deimos27]

BM def town btw

[Deimos27]

Or at least, his push on Marashu here makes me feel a lot better about that read. Because I've been getting tonal gutpings from Marashu since the start and we clearly have resonance about that.

[Deimos27]

I think it's very likely that scum was on the Midari wagon and that scum is on the Pi wagon. Unless the scumteam is completely in {piisirattional,votato,brassherald,Worcestershire} scum was on at least one of those wagons.
Looking at the Pi wagon, I'm not liking the way cj and BM joined the wagon.

How do you reach the conclusion that scum was on both Midari

and

on Pi?

[Deimos27]

Is Pi due for a prod soon?

[Deimos27]

I need to read through the early part of the cultd3 game, maybe my judgment is clouded because I was scum that game but your posts here lack that Deimos charm I remember.

I want to extend my sincerest gratitude to you Drew for describing me as charming, because I believe that makes you the first person in my entire life, excluding my current girlfriend, to express that opinion.

Was it the unsuccessful memeing? The rubbish sense of humour?

[Deimos27]

VOTE: Marashu
I'm down to explore this one, pending Pi's return.

[Deimos27]

I liked that Tux accepted a real time interaction with me and I liked how he was approaching Midari. I also changed my mind about the way he was flinging his vote around and decided that scum is actually typically quite loathe to do that due to self-awareness about voting patterns.

[Deimos27]

I think word has a point on superbowl. That justification was so weak that the wagon hop comes off as extremely artificial.

[Deimos27]

All three of those slots are pretty good for pressure atm. Pi, Marashu, superbowl.

[Deimos27]

I'll read through this RVS soon and if there's anything worth pushing

I've been waiting on further engagement since this

[Deimos27]

I think word has a point on superbowl. That justification was so weak that the wagon hop comes off as extremely artificial.

On second thought superbowl literally says "wagon hop" in that post so I think he's aware that he's just shifting for the pressure wagon and the reasoning isn't meant to be deep, which weakens the tell.

[Deimos27]

Yeah I get the main point. Scum tend to be self-conscious about their votes and feel the need to give justification, plus superbowl's justification was straight up bad so it checks with a contrived scum agenda. In this case it looks close enough to a RVS style townie pressure/momentum hop that I don't consider the tell all that strong, but it's sufficient to make him a good slot for pressure. I'm not super impressed by superbowl's content so far anyway.

[Deimos27]

Third Party

Doctor Drew

Good read

[Deimos27]

Originally I felt surely scum would be quite happy being buddied, and at least not try to 1v1 the guy doing it which seems counter-productive. But on reflection, it's quite an easy way to get into the game on the front foot by attacking them (and also being buddied might make them nervous of extra attention anyway).

Battle Mage, were your 345 and 357 reaction tests to see how I'd respond to buddying?

[Deimos27]

In response to (62) and (145), I'm curious to hear his thoughts on vota.

My approach to votato so far has just been to sit back and observe. I don't think any one of his posts is outside his town range, but I've noted that this is the first game I've played with him where I'm not sold by his tonality early on.

What causes the townlean on superbowl and Worcestershire (237)?

I liked superbowl's 77 and the tonality of some of the fluffier posts (180, 194), but this perception has faded as we have gotten farther from RVS. My townlean of Worcestershire was based solely on a page 7 naked vote entrance being too scummy to be scum, but his gameplay hasn't picked up since and I take your point about the larger cognitive load so I'd relegate that slot down to somewhere around null, and below superbowl, who at least has some analysis and semi-respectable comments.

Why is word suspicious?

When I say that I'm suspicious about someone, that generally means that I think that person is worth investigating, not that I think they are necessarily scummy. There was something about word's tonality and his early vote on me, as well as 222 where he contributes to the Tux case but isn't on his wagon, that gave me pause. There's also a bit of an associative with Marashu/Pi that enters into my emotional interpretation, but is independent of his individual scumminess.

For the most part his analysis is quite deep and resonant with me, especially recently in 375, so I'm happy to exclude the slot from any D1 lynchpool.

[Deimos27]

I'm pretty convinced Battle Mage is town at this point.

[Deimos27]

If anyone who has meta with him would like to contest that notion and assert that he is within his scum range still, I am all ears.

[Deimos27]

I didn't understand the line about cognitive load.

Having a larger cognitive load is a characteristic of scum that can become exceptionally apparent in less experienced players, whose posting habits end up suffering from brevity and scarcity.

[Deimos27]

Battle Mage gives me like 16 tonnes of resonance every time he posts. He's active and engaged, he's scumhunting, he's tonally squeaky clean.
I don't have substantial logical reason for why he is town, but this is one of the stronger gutreads I've had in my mafia career.

[Deimos27]

I don't immediately see any problems with hypoclaiming hider targets. They will become slowly outed by PoE due to not dying after visiting scum or the NK target, but I don't know how long we'd need the hider's identity to remain secret anyway.

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

Battle Mage gives me like 16 tonnes of resonance every time he posts. He's active and engaged, he's scumhunting, he's tonally squeaky clean.
I don't have substantial logical reason for why he is town, but this is one of the stronger gutreads I've had in my mafia career.

Got it, but be careful not to ride gutreads too far! They can be your best friend and worst enemy

lets be honest, everything is a gutread. sometimes we just pretend we have better reasoning.

This is true, which is why aside from townblocing people for shorter amounts of time, it's good to be able to change your reads. Hence deimos should not ride this very strong townread the rest of the game without examination

do you think deimos was doing that? what are you trying to get at here?

Nah, I agree that BM's posting resonates with me quite well and touches all the points I would want to touch, I am just worried about setting them as town for that - I think scum could do the same thing. I don't want Deimos to fall into the trap of hearing resonant posting and townreading for the whole game because of it. Stuff like that is how good scum easily win games.

Everything I determine today is susceptible to change once we have flips and I have more rigorous logic to turn to.

[Deimos27]

How do you reach the conclusion that scum was on both Midari

and

on Pi?

Tuxedo was on Midari. Pi looked to me like a good place for scum to hide because Pi seemed an easy, inactive wagon.

You seemed to implicitly assume that Midari and Pi are town. I'm especially confused about the latter.

[Deimos27]

+1 to Battle Mage's hider plan

[Deimos27]

hmm, some of this townbloc is townie. but i dunno what worce did to get into the townbloc... you could make the case that the lurkiness is NAI, but theres no townie content in any of the posts. no gamesolving, nothing.

I don't usually give an opinion on something I'm not a part of anyway but I agree with votato.

+
Bm plz explain

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

Regarding my participation in the game, I have nothing relevant to share and I do not intend to invent anything to create the false impression of activity.

So you have no thoughts on the game.
Awesome. Great job. Happy with this thus far.

The fact that we can't look past a little slip of not seeing something and me moving because "heat" I find a bit disturbing as I'm not sure how many games you have been apart of where "oh that was a hammer" has happened in games you have been in. I've been around long enough to have it happen more times then I want to admit. Call it what you want. It's mildly infuriating.


I don't understand what superbowl9 is getting at roughly with the town block and what have you and what not l. Maybe I'm a bit delusional but I would expect everyone's reads to change at some point in this game otherwise this is going to get ugly quickly.

Heavy townping from this, don't think noobish scum with heavy cognitive load would see big backlash from a clear mistake and say "Why cant we move past this little slip??" Scum would try to justify more

I like this

[Deimos27]

I would like to officially issue superbowl his acceptance letter into the townblock.
Word I grant a provisional position.

[Deimos27]

I'm doubtful about this Midari wagon. I think the voting from Marashu to Worcester is perfectly well explained by the fact that Marashu got to L-1. Further, I just get this sense of foreboding from Midari's lynchbaitiness that she is scum's designated D1 mislynch. I am open to reading a case of her, but for now I think the Marashu wagon is perfectly functional. He continues to lack engagement with the game and his high-frequency absences do nothing to alleviate that.

[Deimos27]

Ok I'ma re-evaluate this Midari situation

[Deimos27]

Or I would if this damned forum would cooperate and actually load pages today

[Deimos27]

Sorry for not playing the game, I tried in the morning but something was up with either the servers or my internet. I'll be back later this evening.

[Deimos27]

Word wrote so many words (how fitting) last page and I'm really not in a state of mind to do analysis right now, so I'll post more substantively regarding Midari in the morning.

[Deimos27]

Looker how much does meta play into your reads?

[Deimos27]

I like the divisiveness of a counterwagon, and I don't understand why Marashu unvoted.

What does liking the divisiveness of a counterwagon even mean? What don't you understand about Marashu's explanation for his unvote?

Neither of these comments, as phrased, particularly elucidate for me why you're on this wagon.

[Deimos27]

UNVOTE:
Doesn't feel intellectually honest to stay on Marashu until I get my thoughts in order regarding this vs Midari.

[Deimos27]

Yoyoyoyoyo I've harnessed the energy to actually play the game

[Deimos27]

And by "play the game" I mean read up and maybe give superficial thoughts because it's high-key almost 5am and I need sleep lmaooooo

[Deimos27]

Spoiler:

Regarding my participation in the game, I have nothing relevant to share and I do not intend to invent anything to create the false impression of activity.

So you have no thoughts on the game.
Awesome. Great job. Happy with this thus far.

The fact that we can't look past a little slip of not seeing something and me moving because "heat" I find a bit disturbing as I'm not sure how many games you have been apart of where "oh that was a hammer" has happened in games you have been in. I've been around long enough to have it happen more times then I want to admit. Call it what you want. It's mildly infuriating.


I don't understand what superbowl9 is getting at roughly with the town block and what have you and what not l. Maybe I'm a bit delusional but I would expect everyone's reads to change at some point in this game otherwise this is going to get ugly quickly.

Heavy townping from this, don't think noobish scum with heavy cognitive load would see big backlash from a clear mistake and say "Why cant we move past this little slip??" Scum would try to justify more

I like this

I couldn't disagree more. I find it infinitely more likely that newbie-scum would prefer to play something down and plead for people to look the other way, rather than properly defending their actions. It's an approach designed to avoid scrutiny. Further, the fact Midari terms it a "slip" pings me, as well as the general language use. "Disturbing"? "infuriating"? It's all unnecessarily emotive language.

I see your point, but I don't think scum want to get emotional when someone pushes them. I do think noob scum would try to divert attention, but I think they would at least try to explain it - I'm almost making a too scum to be scum argument here ig.

I'm reviving a pretty outdated argument but I wanted to comment on this because I feel like there's merit to the idea that scum would be self-conscious about describing their behaviour as a "slip". Like the general emotive stuff can be an NAI personality trait but going so far as to say what they did was a "slip", a hella charged term in mafia, is a pretty weird attempt at AtE or avoiding scrutiny.

[Deimos27]

No matter how many times I read word's case I don't really see how anything Midari said is outside their town range, judging by what I expect from the personality they've exhibited (and personality/competence really is what I'm referring to when I say they come off as "noobtown", not experience). Some stuff is surface-level scummy like flinging their vote about sort of opportunistically with flimsy reasoning, but how often does that behaviour actually come from scum. I at least don't recall seeing anything so brazen.

[Deimos27]

PenguinPower, teach me how to read Looker

[Deimos27]

PenguinPower, teach me how to read Looker

It's pretty extraordinary that you've already got a tr

[Deimos27]

Ok I sleep now, more content tomorrow I

promise

[Deimos27]

Well, I am claiming VT, so what happens happens. My elimination might not be a bad thing in that regard (except for the fact that it's a miselimination), because it should at least give context to my wagon and some of the reads on me. I'd rather be an early miseliminationthan than a late miselimination, and more than either I want to win, so if my elimination helps town get the info we need to win, then so be it.

I'm surprised by how confident some of y'all suddenly are in town!Marashu. To me this paragraph screams LAMIST.

We're definitely not no-eliminating. If someone prefers an alternative wagon they should pitch it ASAP.

[Deimos27]

They should crumb their hide each day before deadline in an obvious enough way (while remaining covert).

Way

easier said than done mate

[Deimos27]

Aristophanes who's your ideal lynch? You were defending Marashu quite adamantly there for a few pages and now you want to flip him.

[Deimos27]

I think it's informing when we have two major wagons going on at the same time. At the time of my vote, it was Marashu vs PenguinPower - I think Marashu is more likely to flip scum than PenguinPower.
I don't see how "I think I've come around on" this person is an explanation.

I'm trying to prompt you into giving more detail on your sr of Marashu than that he didn't signpost a progression.

[Deimos27]

Aristophanes who's your ideal

lynch

elimination? You were defending Marashu quite adamantly there for a few pages and now you want to flip him.

EBWOP
I've already slipped noooo

[Deimos27]

Fakeclaiming once does not imply always fakeclaiming. Whether you fakeclaim depends on whether the elimination on you can be derailed or not. And I'm not arguing in favour of eliminating slots that are +town, since I don't think Marashu is +town.

No eliminating is almost always -EV in mafia, at least D1. This is the only time town controls who dies, and the only time there's a chance of killing scum. No eliminating denies so much info on the flip and surrounding wagon analysis. This is especially unacceptable to me since my playstyle relies on VC/wagon analysis.

[Deimos27]

I didn't think I'd have to explain why no-eliminating is bad in a game outside the newbie queue.

[Deimos27]

Nash, who do you prefer rather than Marashu. We have over two days and there's no reason for you not to use that time pushing your stances. If you fail to get your favoured elimination you can always default to your no-eliminating, after all.

[Deimos27]

I'm also willing to hammer Marashu. The only thing that gives me pause is that despite our stalling, I haven't seen a counterwagon emerge. Presumably this means that if Marashu is scum he is either being bussed or his teammates are relatively uncharismatic.

[Deimos27]

Aristophanes, I asked for who you'd prefer to lynch because I'd rather not let scum get away with the whole "oh I didn't like this wagon but I'll compromise at deadline if I have to". I want your reads so I can hold you accountable to them, even if it's basically set in stone that Marashu will be the lynch at this point.

[Deimos27]

Imagine I was using the word "eliminate" there.
Old habits die hard okay

[Deimos27]

I agree with word. It's easy for scum!Nash to just continue voting town!Marashu. To 180 there and go to voting No Elim would be... unorthodox, to say the least.

[Deimos27]

So for Marashu to choose to push there feels a little off

[Deimos27]

I Marashu town I'd be more inclined to look at Aristophanes

[Deimos27]

He spent a lot of time defending Marashu without pushing an alternative wagon and now he's cool with hammering that because deadline, but still doesn't want to share reads.

[Deimos27]

I Marashu town I'd be more inclined to look at Aristophanes

If* Marashu town

[Deimos27]

Where do you see Nash feeling trapped/caught? What behaviour are you referring to?

[Deimos27]

H-1
As has been pointed out, you don't know that you're making it to D2, if you're town. So your reticence about reads is

very

unnerving.

[Deimos27]

I was arguing to get a case from people because I did not see scum motivations, not because I townread the slot.

Here you have no tr, now you say he's flipping town

[Deimos27]

We have 39h left. Gypyx is still catching up. We have time to explore Nash, even if it is just to set up for D2.

Dhit, this is a very town post.

And this is the only sign of progression that I see?
How is this post townie??

[Deimos27]

Marashu what was your alignment?

[Deimos27]

Does this answer your questions and/or quell your concerns?

Eod reads are silly
Marashu did more things so now you tr them

No, you've quelled few concerns. I will await elaboration on these tomorrow.

[Deimos27]

Where do you see Nash feeling trapped/caught? What behaviour are you referring to?

I wish we'd given Mara time to elaborate on these

[Deimos27]

I have noted the recent absences of Tux and Drew.

[Deimos27]

Add Aristophanes to that list please. He replaced in 3 days ago and the extent of his engagement has been a soft resistance to the Marashu wagon. He mentioned that he prefers Nash, in passing, but never made an effort to make that happen.

[Deimos27]

Reason there isn't scum!Mara speculation is because we are already in very good shape if Mara is scum.

[Deimos27]

Sorry for being lurky. I did my best, and leave the rest to you.

this feels like a scumclaim?

I assume based on the fact that he didn't elaborate on the questions I asked him and that he didn't respond to whether he's town that this is a scumclaim.

[Deimos27]

I think we need to think this through a lil bit more than proposing a list for D2 beforehand

There is plenty of thinking to do tomorrow. People make eod lists because they're worried they'll be NK'd and won't get to express their opinions the next day.

[Deimos27]

Nash is definitely high priority in that event

[Deimos27]

Townblock too strong
Great game all
Honoured to be N1 nk

[Deimos27]

We win.

Right there there's 9 people alive, 4 of which can't be mafia

If Nash is town and mafia kill Drew + Ari and I get an innocent tracker result...

6 people alive, 4 of which can't be mafia (Tracker + 2 clears + Psychologist) - both candidates can be eliminated before a loss

If mafia kill me instead and Drew gets an innocent on Ari...

7 people alive, 4 of which can't be mafia (Tracker Clear + Hider Clear + Hider + Psychologist) -

all 3 candidates can be eliminated before a loss

The bit in bold is not necessarily true with the presence of a hider. As such, scum could theoretically have still won this game, and the giving up was premature and needless. I've won as scum in a worse position than this.

Nah it was gg as long as hider hides in the PoE cause any 2-for-1 then also saves town an elim