Open 88 - Polygamist Mafia (Game Over) before 650

[kloud1516]

vote: OpposedForce

What force are you opposing exactly?

[kloud1516]

Vote: Zoolander

With everyone else getting a vote, I didn't want anyone to feel left out.

I don't have a vote. We should lynch you for your lies!

Vote: Zoolander

With everyone else getting a vote, I didn't want anyone to feel left out.

String them both up! Lynch all liars!

@ Zoo:

your supermodel antics have earned you a big fat OMGUS vote that have nothing to do with you demanding one.

unvote. vote: Zoolander

for being really, really, really, really, ridiculously good looking.

[kloud1516]

Okay so just to get out of this dreaded random voting stage which seems to go on forever is anyone up for a lover's massclaim?

I am not opposed to a mass loverclaim, as I believe it will beneficial for us later down the road when it comes to avoiding confusion and hitting scum.

[kloud1516]

Meh, sorry guys for not posting. I have been busy this week, so I will do a reread of the last three pages and post something of value a little later. I see that we have established who are bunk buddies are , but I think it would be best for me to look over the partner claim a little better just in case I missed something of value.

[kloud1516]

Thoughts about the game thus far.

First things first:

Interesting that both Jebus and Zoolander chose to reveal their partners early while the rest stuck with the popcorn and pass on to the next person. So since two of these sets were scum that had to decide how they wanted to partner up, was there anything to learn from how the reveals happened? I'm not sure there is, actually.

I would like to readdress the fact that Zoolander claimed his partner before the popcorn idea was suggested, so I don't think that this would could as a strike against him. I do, however, find that Jebus' response to the popcorn idea stands out.

No need to popcorn it, just claim. Takes less time

Me + 3fj (he's god btw)

I can't put my finger on why I find this to be suspicious. Maybe it is because Jebus flat out refused to follow the popcorn claim pattern, or maybe it was simply the context of the post. I feel that Jebus was attempting to rush us through the partner claiming stage, and I find that to be suspicious considering the information the town can acquire from this. There is no need to speed through, as we aren't close to deadline (at least I don't think we are), and less information given to the town is only going to help scum in this case. When asked about it:

Why Jebus were you eager to claim and not do popcorn. Did you not see the bennifit of waiting to see who picked who and then ask why they picked that person?

Jebus responds with this:

Here's another thought: Random vote? Minus my pair, or yours as you may see it, there are 10 people. You have a 2/5 chance of hitting. After one lynch, that goes to a 3/5 chance. Odds are, we hit and win, or get caught in a stalemate doing so.

Thoughts?

Which to me seems like blatant evasion/avoidance of farside's question by means of changing the topic. This doesn't sit well with me. I am not sure the random vote is such a good plan either, for if we mislynch on the random vote, we are already in a lylo situation (I think), so the numbers you, Jebus, post above would be incorrect. I am not exactly sure why you are suggesting random lynch on page three either.

If I had to vote now, it would be for Jebus, but I feel there is still a substantial amount of time to find other things that stand out. If I had a read on Jebus' partner, 3fj, other than his vote on me in the random voting stage, I might be more willing to place a vote on the pair.

Multiple Wives of Suspicion (FoS): Jebus

for now though.

[kloud1516]

I think Jebus was the main one to suggest random voting now as opposed to scum hunting. Interesting he/she proposes it, defends it twice, defends a third time but gives in that "random lynch anyone but me" as factoring into the odds, and now asks to be replaced.

Jebus is opposed on this issue by multiple people but stands by the theory and that seems pro-town not being afraid to stick out of the fray and being called wrong.

Then again, the timing of this replacement request is right after losing an argument vs. the group and getting FoS'ed. To me the defense under pressure outweighs the replacement timing and the fact that the random lynch was a bad idea.

I do not agree with you here, Jahudo. Jebus suggested random lynching on page 3 (or page 2, I am not sure). This would provide the town with little to no information, and would force us into a lylo minus anything from Day 1 to go on. This is not pro-town imo, and continuing to defend the idea does not change this opinion. To me, the defense of a detrimental suggestion to the town continues to stand out. Anyone can defend a posistion, but that does not necessarily provide indication that they are town or not.

I can't help but also notice that this is the second time you have provided a defensive explanation of Jebus' actions, Jahudo, which is interesting.

[kloud1516]

Sorry everyone, school just started again and this week has been more than a tad crazy. I will have limited access until Friday evening, and I will be on almost continually (I hope) on the weekends. Now, down to business.

First of all: Welcome, Adel. Thank you for replacing in.

Second of all:

unvote

Thirdly: I feel that I am going to have to read over the last page and a half so that I make sure I haven't missed something. Hopefully it will not take me long. I will try to post something of value later tonight, but I am not making any promises. If I don't get something up, I promise I will tomorrow.

[kloud1516]

A random lynch to start off, at least, can help kick-start something, anyway.

This quote makes me think he wanted a day 1 lynch without any furthur attempts to scumhunt. You would have to guess if kick-starting meant he was more open to scumhunting in day 2 or not. Like I previously said his idea was bad and scummy, standing up for himself and not slinking into the shadows gave me a little doubt, but now he's been replaced so how does that factor into adel now?

In my opinion, while Adel is a replacement, all reasons for suspecting Jebus are now reasons for suspecting Adel. The fact that Jebus is no longer present in the game doesn't mean that her suggestions and actions are any less suspicious, and I personally will be viewing her replacement in similar regards until given reason to do otherwise.

1) Yes, the quote does indeed make it seem as though Jebus wanted a Day 1 lynch without any further scumhunting, but seeing as how she has been replaced we shall not be able to know if this was the case or not. I do not advise dwelling on Jebus' intentions, as it will only detract from conversation at hand. This is not to say that looking back at Jebus' provided content is a bad thing, as it may provide clues/indication as to her and her partner's alignment later on down the road.

2) Once again, I still feel the fact that Jebus stuck up for her random voting suggestion neither refutes the possibility of her being scum nor provides reasoning that Jebus was pro-town. A scummy suggestion is going to continue to be a scummy suggestion, even if the person who suggested it defends it.

The random lynching plan isn't that great. In addition to the stuff I put on my cons list against it, there's also the idea that if we randomly lynch day 1 we may attempt to non-randomly lynch day 2, which could cause mayhem, and easily lower our chances of winning significantly. There are simply more reasons and more benefits to scum hunting and trying to actually find and eliminate scum that way.

I think Goat has made is clear that he wanted scumhunting before a lynch, regardless of how long and in-depth we go to make our choices. He also seems to be against the random lynch day 1 and scum-hunt day 2 but again

I can only guess what Jebus was thinking.

[/quote]

Addressing the bolded phrase above: Yes, this is all we can do: guess, but I would rather accumulate evidence against a person and make a reasonable case against them then go off of guesses.

Sorry for taking longer than I promised to get a post up. I have taken notice of the back-and-forth between LF and OF, but I feel that I will need to go over the content provided in their posts with more scrutiny before I even attempt to comment on it.

[kloud1516]

EBWOP ^^ * chants *Preview button=ally* ends chants*

The random lynching plan isn't that great. In addition to the stuff I put on my cons list against it, there's also the idea that if we randomly lynch day 1 we may attempt to non-randomly lynch day 2, which could cause mayhem, and easily lower our chances of winning significantly. There are simply more reasons and more benefits to scum hunting and trying to actually find and eliminate scum that way.

I think Goat has made is clear that he wanted scumhunting before a lynch, regardless of how long and in-depth we go to make our choices. He also seems to be against the random lynch day 1 and scum-hunt day 2 but again

I can only guess what Jebus was thinking.

Addressing the bolded phrase above: Yes, this is all we can do: guess, but I would rather accumulate evidence against a person and make a reasonable case against them then go off of guesses.

Sorry for taking longer than I promised to get a post up. I have taken notice of the back-and-forth between LF and OF, but I feel that I will need to go over the content provided in their posts with more scrutiny before I even attempt to comment on it.[/quote]

[kloud1516]

First of all: Welcome to the game Karne!

Secondly:

my lover's single post. defintely a sign of a genius scum plot to convince the town to random-lynch itself into extinction.

So who is responable for pushing a case that the two rawest newbies in the game were trying to get the town to adopt a fatal strategy?

I never saif it was a large plot.

The first quote is you trying to shoot down suspicion on yourself and your lover by showing the absurdity of two newbie scum concocting a plan to win by having the town random lynch. In other words, your defense of their actions is the "There's no way they made that large plot" defense, which completely contradicts the 2nd post.

I think the issue, and what armlx was saying, is that you're strawmanning people's suspicion on you by taking 1 scenario (the pregame plot) and showing it to be absurd, but ignoring other possible scenarios (it wasn't a plot or a preplanned idea) in your defense.

QFT. Fallacy taken into consideration, I am not liking this initial post. I do not feel that anyone was necessarily pushing for their lynch (correct me if I am wrong), but I do see that people pointed out why they felt the suggestion was scummy while expressing the possibly detrimental results that could occur from random lynching. Even if they were newbies, as I said before in post, a suspicious suggestion is still a suspicious suggestion, no matter if the person who suggested it decides to defend it. I think this holds true for a "raw newbie" suggesting a scummy plan as well, for they are just as likely to be scum as anyone else, and are therefore just as likely to make mistakes. Not all newbies are as oblivious as you seem to be attempting to portray them.

More to come.

[kloud1516]

I dislike how the Adel wagon disappeared so quickly once

he

(I remembered) replaced in. I especially do not like kloud's unvote at all. No reason given. He welcomes Adel into the game and unvotes. This paired with the fact Adel random-voted kloud my initial suspects are the kloud team and the Adel team.

Also, the mod hasn't said it yet but I am replacing The Pope's Tiara.

I said it in the same post as the latest vote count - Mod.

I'm going to

vote: Adel

though I am happy voting 3fj, kloud, or armlx.

1) That vote on Zoolander was from the random voting. I unvoted because I did not feel as though we were still in the random voting stage, and would have done so earlier if I hadn't been so busy.

2) So it is wrong to welcome someone to the game?

3) We were just provided with paraphrased content from the Jebus/3fj, so I am not following your reasoning for suspecting Adel and me to be scum buddies; besides Jebus' vote in the random voting stage. Could you please elaborate?

[kloud1516]

I don't know if paraphrased chats should factor in much or at all, but it does sound like two typical newbies to me.

Newbie town or scum?

I think that townies would be more worried about finding scum than avoiding suspicion themselves.

Or is that just me?

QFT. I would also like to know what you, Jahudo, meant in the comment above. Were you referring to newbie town or scum? You might have already answered this, and if so I have missed it, so could you either respond/answer again please?

I kind of suspect that thier understanding of the setup was so incompleat that they (both of them) thought that as lovers they needed to avoid being suspected of being lovers.

That doesn't add up to me.

I said earlier the chat made them sound like newbies, but Jebus looks anti-town trying to be pro-town and 3jf looks anti-town trying to be

anti-town

with what he's suggesting.

The chat shouldn't prove what they are, but if 3jf is replaced their ideas shouldn't count against the replacements, right?

Do you mean that 3fj looks anti-town trying to be pro-town here? Just thought I should ask for clarity.

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting, but if someone replaces out, their replacement does not get a fresh start or a clean slate.

No not completely.

I just mean that Jebus' random vote idea and 3jf's inactivity are not strong enough tells to lynch their replacements. I can feel neutral on this group at this stage.

Even if they feel like a good instinct vote, it's not well reasoned.

1) I agree with Goat here; My own opinion of Adel in regards to replacing Jebus can be found in post 139. I still feel this way, and have not seen any reasons that indicate my suspicions of Jebus/Adel should deteriorate.

2) I feel as though you are contradicting yourself here, Jahudo, for you claim that the random vote idea and 3fj's inactivity are not strong enough to be tells, yet your vote is on 3fj due to said inactivity. This isn't adding up to me. You then go on to say that you feel neutral on this group at this stage, and if this is the case, then why is your vote still on 3fj?

FoS: Jahudo

I feel as though you have continued to flip flop on your opinions. First you suggest that because Jebus defended the random lynch proposal that he/she was pro-town/not worthy of the criticism and suspicion being given, and now you are claiming that both Jebus and 3fj are/were pro-town trying to appear anti-town. You seem to be trying to maintain a position in neutral grounds, and I am not liking it.

This being said, I have not found anything that OF has done/said to particularly stand out, so this detracts slightly from the thought of the Jahudo/OF pair being scum. For now, that is.

[kloud1516]

Unless you were ready to lynch Jebus and 3fj before Abel replaced in

I was.

ah, so Armix is all about lynching newbie for making a mistake based off of inexperience, and keeping this day limited to one wagon. got it.

unvote, vote:armix

Ah, so Adel is all about lynching a player while once again strawmanning his case in order to justify the vote. Got it. That would be the second time Adel has employed fallacy-induced arguments/reasoning into the game.

vote: Adel

I am going to directly quote from my post 163:

Even if they were newbies, as I said before in post, a suspicious suggestion is still a suspicious suggestion, no matter if the person who suggested it decides to defend it. I think this holds true for a "raw newbie" suggesting a scummy plan as well, for they are just as likely to be scum as anyone else, and are therefore just as likely to make mistakes. Not all newbies are as oblivious as you seem to be attempting to portray them.

This still applies. Jebus and 3fj both agreed on a plan that was suspicious in itself, but with the paraphrased conversation you provided, you have just revealed that they had no intentions of it being a random vote, as Jebus intended on targeting someone (me) in particular while 3fj thought it best to vote someone else in order to avoid suspicion. I would like to note that even after saying this, 3fj still voted for me, which leads me to believe that they both intended on keeping their votes on me in the "random" Day 1 vote as shocking as that might be. This is scummy play, no matter how many in-game posts either of them have.

[kloud1516]

I too am trying to catch up. Sorry everyone.

[kloud1516]

Finally done. And I'm almost gone out of this game.

First of all, can't you all think? You are all following one player of one lover pair, while we have 4 good lover pairs and one bad one consisting out of 4 people. But all you have been doing is commenting on Adel/Jebus play. This is what I call tunnel vision. Didn't you guys say that the town loses with two mislynches? Then tell me why you are all focusing on one group?

This is not necessarily true. If it were, Llama and OF would not have had their back-and-forth, and I would not have commented on what I found to be suspicious with Jahudo's play thus far in the game. I personally am focusing on the Adel/Jebus and 3fj/you wagon for reasons I provided in posts 139, 163, and 192. I feel this group is the most suspicious, and continues to act in a scummy manner.

Next would be Llama's discussion with OF. Many didn't even follow it, or they did but didn't say a thing. After a few large posts, there are some who are going to read it through, however nobody gives a comment about it. Can anyone explain me why?

I must admit that I completely forgot to read back over it as promised. I will go back and do this right now.

What are your opinions of the back-and-forth between Llama and OF?

Then we have the post of the lover pair 3fj and jebus. I don't know if you have seen it, but there are only two people talking. NOT FOUR. Also they are talking about catching mafia. Strange enough, nobody notices that. But other things were boldprinted sometimes. In this post you can also see what the plan of Jebus was. I'm talking about the random lynching plan of which you gave a lot of comments on, that it's not helpful. However as you can see Jebus thought it was useful. It also explains why Jebus didn't wait for the popcorn claiming.

Mana_Ku, are you trying to intimidate us into unvoting you? Heavy amounts of pathos do not help your argument. Heavy amounts of logos do, though.

Then we have the post of the lover pair 3fj and jebus. I don't know if you have seen it, but there are only two people talking. NOT FOUR. Also they are talking about catching mafia. Strange enough, nobody notices that.

Do you

really

expect us to believe that the scum would forget to cut out their partners in their daytalk?

Really

? And, do you also expect us to believe scum would be 100% truthful in their daytalk if it incriminated them?

This. QFT. The whole shabang. It is perfectly plausible that posts made by their scum partners could have been omitted, as well as the possibility that all things that could look suspicious were taken out as well. We have no way to prove this, but it

is

a possibility, so I find your argument flawed.

I hope that you don't mind that I'm writng this with anger for it pains me that I see all these false arguments about the ones who Adel and I have replaced, while you weren't searching for the real scum.

My vote wasn't solely based off the actions of Jebus. Adel was trying to downplay your replacements' actions, and when called out on it rebutted the claims with fallacy. The arguments used to justify their actions were just as suspicious, if not more suspicious to me than the actions themselves.

[kloud1516]

I used Adel's voting post against armlx in post 192 to make it clear what I felt was Adel using the strawman fallacy for the second time since replacing into the game. That first paragraph right after the quote I believe explains that.

[kloud1516]

unvote

My lover said it best; the chart could prove to be a benefit, even though I didn't have a clue as to what was going on when I looked at the ones you have made before.

[kloud1516]

Responding to prod. Doing reread and will get back to you shortly. Weekdays = irregular schedule. Sorry.

[kloud1516]

With three days to go until deadline ti is looking like my odds for survival are slim.

This is a setup that sharply penalized towns that go for the lazy day 1 lynch.

I really hope that all townies give some thought to the posts I've made since the diagram I posted. The reason I kept on asking who could possibly be scum with me was because, as I see it, each other townie couple should be able to conclude that there is one and only one other couple that I could possibly be scum with. By lynching that couple, my townieness could be confirmed. I was hoping for some clear thinking and good posting by other townies, but that isn't happening. I do not like the shift from Empking to armlx, but I am supporting the armlx lynch because he is not me. Empking is not an "easy mislynch" and my opinion of his alignment is not based off of the formatt he uses to make his posts. At this point, that seems to be splitting hairs, when the majority of the town seems to be unaware that my wagon is leading to a pretty obvious mislynch.

Bussing in this game is suicide, and Empking placed me at lynch -1 without

anyone

doing anything to defend Mana_Ku and me.

It is horribly ironic that the townies on my wagon are making the same mistake that Jebus made: not understanding the set-up.

I agree with you Adel, but my problem is I'm a lone voice in this maddess.

QFT. I think Adel's reasoning is both solid and logical, which is making me lean more towards Adel being town that I earlier thought. The facts Adel provided make sense to me, and the thorough explanation of his position in addition to information we can gather from the chart make me feel uneasy about an Adel lynch. More to come a little later, I am still a bit busy.

[kloud1516]

vote Adel

I am not sure of Adel's alignment, and I am leaning towards him being pro-town. This being said, however, I know that both armlx and I are town.

[kloud1516]

vote Adel

I am not sure of Adel's alignment, and I am leaning towards him being pro-town.

Then why did you just vote him?

I am also interested in the answer to this question.

Because it is either:

a) Allow myself to be killed as a direct result of armlx being lynched
b) Vote Adel and tie it, so that maybe I won't die.

I am leaning towards Adel and Mana being pro-town, yes, but while I can't be certain of their alignment, I know armlx and I are town, and would rather lynch possible scum than town.

[kloud1516]

I am here, sorry everyone. Doing a reread and will post shortly.

[kloud1516]

Kloud: Post 112 I never realized till he appologized that he is hardly around. Just something noteworthy. Post 139 I don't know how you expect Adel to answer to someone else's thought process.

1) In what sense is that noteworthy. I posted similar things in all of my games, as I was (and still are) extremely busy on weekdays. This was directly effecting my activity in the game--a deterioration in activity level that made it hard for me to actually contribute to the game as I wanted to. I felt my absence warranted an apology to the town, as I was not there to help out as much as I could have.

2) My point was not that we should expect Adel to have to answer for Jebus' thought process--as there would be no way for her to do so. All I was saying was that, despite Jebus no longer being in the game, casting all suspicions of her aside simply because Adel was replacing in would not be smart. I believe I have said this several times now: scummy behavior is scummy behavior, and this behavior doesn't/shouldn't vanish when that person is replaced; instead, the replacement should be analyzed with pre-made cases/suspicions still in mind. The town can then put suspicious behavior of the previous player with the actions of the replacement, and more effectively determine whether or not this player is indeed town or scum. Does that make sense?

[kloud1516]

Doing a reread. Should I go ahead and claim next since armlx just went?

[kloud1516]

Armlx summed it up thoroughly. As he said, our conversation was short and to the point. Summary:

>Me: Hi
>Armlx: Forgets about discussion. Says he replaced in to another Polygamist Mafia, but doesn't find a whole lot to base scumhunting tactics off of when it comes to set up.
>Me: I say that I haven't had any experience with the set-up, but noticed that voting patterns were a key part in hitting scum in previous games.
>Armlx: Agrees.

>Game starts.

[kloud1516]

You stated you just joined one, but kloud just said to look at votes. Seems like an out of the blue comment to make.

I assume he quickly skimmed the other games.

This. Refer to post 629.

[kloud1516]

>Me: I say that I haven't had any experience with the set-up, but noticed that voting patterns were a key part in hitting scum in previous games.

Are you talking about previous games with identical or similar setups to this? Did you specifically mention it in pre-game because of the setup or would you have said this for a newbie game, etc.?

Yes, I was referring to Open 76, which was the same set up as this game. I mentioned it in pre-game conversation specifically for this game, for since the town won in Open 76 I thought it would be a good foundation to start from.

[kloud1516]

The question is why wouldn't you talk about the game. The question should be why didn't you talk about the game. To me those being vague on there discussion is more suspect.

Again, my question is what the hell is there to talk about. The main reason to talk to a mason/scum partner outside the thread in a normal game is information that you don't want revealed at that time. There was no information in pre-game.

Unvote, Vote farside

for making a bull shit case.

Looks like a OMGUS vote to me. Why would you not talk more with your lover knowing it would be the only chance to talk about what scum could do. What to look for and best ways to find scum?

Because the best way (imo)

was

brought up in our discussion [voting patterns].

[kloud1516]

WIFOM? Seriously, caboose, that's what you've got? What you're suggesting is that scum are refusing to

win the game

immediately, to make it easier to win the game later. Now farside's argument is at least feasible, scum may simply have not had a chance to to quickhammer.

The longer those votes stay, though, the less feasible that argument is going to get.

Just looked at Jenthron and Kloud's profile. Kloud has been around posting elsewhere since his last post on this game. Jenthron's computer went down it seems and has not posted since the 23rd. So if Kloud votes does the fact that no one quick hammer look less scummy knowing one player is out of commision? Makes it harder for the scum to do a quick hammer if one of there own are MIA.

Like I said I experience this myself in Poly game where Grimmy went MIA as well so right now the idea of scum hammering looks WIFOM to me based on the two low contributers.

You make it sound as if I have been absent from this thread for a lengthy amount of time, which isn't the case at all. I my last post was TWO DAYS ago, so you claiming that I am just waiting around for others players to return is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. I have made a grand total of eight posts since my last submission in this game, and most of those have just been indications of me rereading. I have already said before that weekdays are hectic for me, and so I do not feel this point holds much water.

I find it interesting that you are so quick to try to build a case based on activity against me, when in fact your own partner was MIA for a span of five days and posted an approximate total of 25 posts in other games before posting today. Which stands out more to everyone; two days and eight posts, or five days and twenty-five posts out of this thread? In the period of Caboose's absence, it appears to me that Farside was attempting to make several cases on several different players based off of pre-game chats. The arguments she used do not seem to have a solid foundation, which makes me feel that she was simply trying to use anything she could find to condemn armlx and I for our pre-game chat. We may have not discussed much, but we this was because (imo) we felt that the most efficient tactic for scum hunting (vote patterns) was brought up.

Now Farside's is arguing that I am scum because of inactivity, a fallacious argument due to the evidence I have pointed out. I feel that this is a ploy by Farside to deflect attention away from her own partner's absence, as her arguments based off of the pre-game discussions was a means of making it appear that she was contributing to scum hunting while she had no one to support/defend the accusations she was leveling.

vote: Farside