Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Spoiler:

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I may or may not be in a neighbourhood. I am open to someone claiming neighbours with me which I will play along with. Of course, it might also be my real neighbour if I am in a neighbourhood. This would be the Wifom element at play, and should make it difficult for mafia to decide whether I am a Mason or a neighbour.

Why did you claim Miller Mason? Why didn't you just claim the Miller aspect of your role?

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I have Quick as town and lean town on Nauci

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still, i dont think outing the hood, masons or not, is a good idea.

mason miller makes very little sense as a role no?

if a cop checks, masons can just come in and say he claimed miller to us in our masonry, then what...

Do you think Truth is telling the truth about his role?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

lean town on Nauci

You're just biased towards their avatar aren't you.

I thought her questioning Glitch was towny.

Although rereading the game today, I don't really think that's as ai as I thought it was

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Popopo. You will be my voting slave

Spoiler:

More than 2 masons in a mini setup sounds implausible. A hood would be more likely for that.

Truth has all but admitted it's a hood. It's a hood until proven otherwise.

Do you feel we have a legitimate claim 7 pages in?

Do you think Truth is telling the truth about his role?

Why are you trying to avoid RVS?

---

VOTE: LicketyQuickety Consider it a reward for your...effort

?

We were already comfortably out of RVS by the time I got to the thread

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Looker, why did you vote for Quick?

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I thought it would be a good idea if one of the Masons claimed so that doctors could be used on me. In hindsight I should have checked with my buddies first.

I mean, there isn't always a doctor

Also if you just claimed Miller by itself, the odds of scum nk'ing you were going to be so small. So if you didn't want to die, you should've just claimed Miller...?

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i meant to quote the whole post there.

So in case of a lynch without any info, we're more likely to hit town than mafia. Accordingly, we have to get more info on scum from the lynch than the value of losing a player.

I'm sure that we're marginally more likely to hit mafia with this method on the first day than a completely random RNG lynch but that is not the test IMO.

The real test is whether the net information gained from the reactions of people from being pressured outweighs the high chance of a potential loss of a townie. When I say net information I also mean to include negative utility information for town such as the fact that the mafia knows of the existence of a masonry when it did not need to.

This logic works better the more investigative roles there are in the game though because the more there are the more it makes sense to wait for a night.

I haven't seen anything yet to lose a townie in a 13 player game so far.

VOTE: NO LYNCH

Where have you played forum mafia before?

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I am okay with not lynching today. Going to even numbers alive on a day is bad, but if a doctor protects me we would actually be back on odd numbers. And not lynching on the first day is better than later on because of the proportion of mafia and town.

VOTE: no lynch

wat

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lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

I'm townreading Norway and I think osuka is townish. Still think Quick is prob town but he seems to have trouble getting his point across

VOTE: guiltylion

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Where's that early game energy Guilty?

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Well, does anyone have any strong feelings of mafia from any other players? I would be fine with lynching but it doesn't seem like anyone has any leads.

I am reading. I don't remember everything. I am suspicious of Osuka as well so I can help here.

VOTE: Osuka

What made you start suspecting osuka

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Truth didn't have any leads in 194 but then 6 posts later he's suddenly suspicious of you?

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I am reading. I don't remember everything. I am suspicious of Osuka as well so I can help here.

VOTE: Osuka

How could you possibly have missed that? It's on the same page you said people were too focussed on your claim that I pointed out Osuka is too focussed on your claim. How exactly DID you miss that?

he actually can be forgiven for missing your "push" because honestly I'm staggered that you dared call it a push in the first place

I didn't call it a push.

Osuka thinks this post by you was a backpedal because you said you were pushing him earlier in 195

osuka, why is that backpedal more likely to come from scum than town?

sorry altslip

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So I haven’t fully finished the read but wanted to comment about LicketyQuickety going after the miller/mason claim. In 84, you mention the two possibilities for going after Truth’s claim. I would argue it’s #1 and he’s new vs #2. Post 52 should tell you that. Truth saying he has his mason buddies coming forward to verify his claim, that would look horrible coming from scum. If scum!Truth is fake claiming miller/mason then his buddies would be scum. To 1) be scum and suggest his partners will verify his claim is one helluva gambit if ANYONE of them were to be lynched, you could easily link them together 2) to not know how that would sound saying he has buddies coming forward with players being skeptical of his claim and not being aware of the optics of this. This tells me that he hasn’t even considered how scummy it would be to say “hey guys. I have a private chat and will show guilty to a cop’s investigation, but don’t worry cause I’ve got people in that private chat to verify I’m town.” That sounds scummy af and Truth seems to just not have even considered the optics. Basically his 52 reads to me like someone being like I’m confirmed town cause my buddies will back me up without even considering scum could make the same exact claim with scum buddies backing that fake claim up. As of right now, I hafta accept his claim here (at least for now).

This is a good assessment

Why is it good though? I feel like he just wrote a block of text to say "scum wouldn't do what Truth did!"

[Cat Scratch Fever]

osuka, why is that backpedal more likely to come from scum than town?

he tried to make a point in a very obviously ingenuine fashion. why do you feel like you have to show someone "look at all these slots i pushed" if youre town when the number is clearly at least inflated?

Sense of self importance? Idk I can kind of see it with his personality this game.

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I think Quick and Osuka are TvT right now, and this back and forth is rapidly growing tiring to follow. Why don't we all hug it out and vote GuiltyLion or something

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Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Holy shit

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Truth said they play elsewhere so I don't think they're new

[Cat Scratch Fever]

hi i'm ofrhz

I just posted on the wrong account

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Lick - sketch at first, then was confused for a while, then the ugly page 9-10 osuka vs LQ battle I'm reading is just confusing. I think osuka has solid arguments and

This got cut off. What's your read on Quick?

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anyway I don't think a lot of great stuff happened otherwise in these 12 pages and I'd like to get more of a foothold in the game tonight, I'll be around for the next 3-4 hours so hmu and let's jam, especially the cats cause I want CSF to townread me

popopopopoppopopoppop I'm also townreading

haven't read the Glitch Wall yet but I did think that 'fake millers' in lieu of 'fake masons' thing was sketchy

Why are you townreading popo? I don't have a read there

I think I'd rather let norway respond to your case before i pass judgment

[Cat Scratch Fever]

So there would be info flowing from nearly every night which made it a good choice to NL without info.

Idk that site but MS definitely isn't a site where you should NL. Look at some completed games in this forum and you'll note that basically no game ends up with a no lynch on day 1

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Because i read you as scum and therefore i view all your interactions with extreme prejudice.

and that's not what you did in our last game together

this one!

I remember much calmer, more chill posts - such as this one!

Anyways, let's talk about Glitch. Why did you say he's a mislynch?

In that newbie with Micc you linked, Norway did kneejerk OMGUS Micc though.

I'm not really vibing your case on Norway. A lot of those things you're pushing as scum indicative often come from town too.

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I think Norway's reaction to your push on him rings towny too

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Nauci how are you reading Truth?

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here's my "taking a look at the whole game" reads for Norwegian:

Townies: CSF, Nauci, Lickety, Candy Shop
don't feel like voting today but maybe a scum: Looker, osuka
has not played the game yet: rozyroz
self-resolving: Truth
could see myself voting today: mavsfan, glitch
one of these two is scum: Norway, popopopopoppopopoopp

p-edit: What am I misdirecting away from? I replied directly to the latest two people that voted me

Why is Nauci town again? I feel like she’s been taking safe stances

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Candy Shop, what do you think of GuiltyLion and Norway?

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long wall post

Townread on Glitch

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If someone could explain to me why my suggestion was bad instead of laughing at it or dismissing it, I would be very grateful.

One slot hasn't even posted yet. I think we can stand to extract a lot more information out of today.

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I'll give you some action for now because of the post I called out earlier looking so, so bad

VOTE: GuiltyLion

If you don’t like the fact that your scumread then maybe you shouldn’t have played so bad and started the day off by pushing me for quite frankly, awful reasons.

Soo... IS the core of your case OGMUS?

I didn't like either of these posts

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I'll give you some action for now because of the post I called out earlier looking so, so bad

VOTE: GuiltyLion

If you don’t like the fact that your scumread then maybe you shouldn’t have played so bad and started the day off by pushing me for quite frankly, awful reasons.

Soo... IS the core of your case OGMUS?

I didn't like either of these posts

Her vote on GuiltyLion really surprised me. Based on her posts, I was expecting her to vote Norway.

The GL post Nauci is referring to isn't even that bad imo. It wasn't one of the posts from GL that pinged me anyhow.

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VOTE: popo

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I voted you because I think guilty is town, I don’t townread you, and there’s already a wagon on you

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We all know you’re just following Norway’s votes

The question is why are you doing that instead of following through with your own pushes

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I don’t think anyone is saying we should lynch now... except for truth lol

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What’s your read on me?

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Lol ill be phone posting all weekend but look at this dudes iso its all townreads and then a naked hop on me. Could be the worst vote on my wagon. This guy is straight cruising and found an easy spot to park his vote but I ain't mislynch bait like that bro.

Do you think you've done enough to be townread?

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Though thinking about it some more, accusing me of hardly doing anything this game when popo himself hasn't really done much this game is kind of hilariously hypocritical in a way that I think is probably townie

Who are your top scumreads popo?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

actually popo can you just post a quick readslist? I'd like to know where you are

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree

Are you talking about this?

Spoiler:

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever / rozyrozNDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Looker didn't even give reads - he just said which slots were good info lynches?

mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look

Why is this weird? He said he was in the middle of catching up earlier.

Cat Scratch Fever - scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

Which townreads do you disagree with?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm also curious why you don't think Looker's vote on Guilty was opportunistic

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Notice he doesnt call guilty scum here. Doesn't really provide a reason for his vote at all.

In fact cat scratch never calls GL scum, except he does post this

The reason why I voted was because of his lack of presence early game and was heavily implied:

Spoiler:

Where's that early game energy Guilty?

Because i read you as scum and therefore i view all your interactions with extreme prejudice.

and that's not what you did in our last game together

this one!

I remember much calmer, more chill posts - such as this one!

Anyways, let's talk about Glitch. Why did you say he's a mislynch?

In that newbie with Micc you linked, Norway did kneejerk OMGUS Micc though.

I'm not really vibing your case on Norway. A lot of those things you're pushing as scum indicative often come from town too.

I know Guilty like to make early game pushes as town because we just finished a game together.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

So here there is a push for more votes on guilty. He's never called guilty even scummy tho? But he's voted for him and called for others to vote him.

Uh yeah, I saw a shitshow of what I thought was TvT and did not want Osuka and Quick to continue arguing back and forth with each other and instead combine our votes to form a pressure wagon on someone who was conspicuously missing.

Then he votes for me, with no explanation of either his original guilty read or his new vote on me. He provided a reason for the vote on me when I pressed him.

If you want an explanation, you can just ask instead of making assumptions. Is this a newbie game where we scumread people for not explaining things?

I thought Guilty's meta defense of himself was convincing enough. His posting rate is higher as town than scum, and his contributions here pushed me to think he's town.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

BTW cats vote on me was sheeping GLs attack on me after already voting for GL and calling for others to vote there. A bizarre turnaround.

It's not bizarre because I thought he was town by the time I voted for you.

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lol I'm happy with my vote

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I'm not nauci but yes

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i owe norwe big, more than owe him im in debt to him. the reactions i am getting for this schtick also has been and will continue to be fruitful

Town as fuck.

You have more experience with popo than me so I'm curious - why isn't this a post scum!popo would make?

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Is nobody really gonna post right now

Not our faults you live in an assbackwards timezone.

I don't even understand why you would say this, jokingly or not

It was like 11 pm pst, a fairly reasonable hour to expect some people to be actively posting

With that said I went to bed at like 7 AM this morning so my understanding of normal and time zones is skewed af

Why did you comment on this post?

Did my conversation with popo help you read either of us?

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Well first of all, i think it’s town to say he’s doing it for reactions. He also included a reads list afterwards which proves that point. Also i’m getting a distinct feel of his town meta from recent posts. As scum he would probably lurk hard and only pop in to say some irrelevant stuff or try to fake a different progression when he started being suspected/wagoned.

I don't think he's saying his original motivation for sheeping you was to get reactions - just that he chose to sheep you for whatever reason and then it so happened he got some reads out of it. I also think he only did a readslist because I asked him for one.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i owe norwe big, more than owe him im in debt to him. the reactions i am getting for this schtick also has been and will continue to be fruitful

Based on this, he seems to be saying it was a side effect rather than the cause for sheeping you

popo's last two scum games did have a drastically lower post count rate than this game already though so maybe you have a point.

Funny thing is I'm townreading GuiltyLion on the premise that his higher activity is town indicative compared to his past two scumgames. Can I get you to reconsider that slot?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

idk about "can't be scum with GL" since I don't bother with pre-flip associations but I want to wagon this

VOTE: Nauci

She seemed interested in figuring out popo's alignment earlier, but then this wagon on him built up to L-2

and

popo dropped a readslist and she pops in but doesn't comment on either at all.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That sounds awful. No rush, this game is just getting started. Hope you feel better soon!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@Cat Scratch Fever: what’s the case on Nauci? Her actions around the GL wagon are weird, sure. But in a very short span she votes GL, unvotes him. Later she mentions GL in 493 but also is critical of Norwegian in 494 & 496. I’m not sure scum!Nauci unvotes GL and makes 494 & 496. This seems to me like town reconsidering between the two whereas scum would’ve parked the vote and called it a day.

I don't think the unvote is super AI either way.

Town can unvote there because maybe they really think two people could qhammer. scum can also unvote because that's what they would do as town.

Unvoting there is super easy - it's really not hard for scum to fake that, so I don't think that's a valid reason to be townreading someone.

My case on Nauci is that she seems to comment on things that aren't game related when there's content to analyze. I would like to see where she lands once she gets more time to dedicate to this game.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'd like more votes on cat

his iso pre voting me is very poor as I've laid out.

The lack of self awareness is pretty astounding.

Where do you think my ISO is bad? You scumread me for townreading people too easily when you can't point to a townread that you thought was weak?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Quote from Looker

Where did you end up on Looker? You started out saying his post was shallow and then you liked one of his pushes.

RE: Truth - If Truth is scum, there are two other scum anyway, so you might as well pressure someone else. The reason is if you're wrong about Truth being scum and she is a Mason, then pushing Truth to lynch range will mean a mason buddy will have to reveal themselves as well.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It's predicated on your reading the thread without a scumhunting mindset

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Truth, what's your homesite?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think I'm nearing prod range so this is a prodge

my husband probably broke his foot yesterday so rl is busy right now

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Catching up

Hi Blair

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm a cute little townie this game :3

[Cat Scratch Fever]

As of page 35, I don't scumread Nauci anymore

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ND has this kind of strong Town assurance in themselves that is kinda intangible, but I don't see it coming from Scum the vast majority of the time. I also like his attack on GL. I might revisit that read based on what ND said because it seems I missed a few finer points about GL and might have TR GL a bit too early.

Quick since you're here: what were the arguments for scum!Guilty from ND that you thought were good?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar.

Why am I on your scum radar?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar.

Why am I on your scum radar?

There was literally zero progression from scumreading popo to scumreading me.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I interpreted the post as being annoyed they didn't have as many townreads as they would like, and picked you because of prior experience and not having posted as much as other slots.

It was this combined with what ND chose to quote from GL. I think the posts ND quoted from GL kinda speak for themselves.

idk it feels like reading scum motivation where there is none

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

lol? what do you think is similar between these two games

[Cat Scratch Fever]

CSF's ISO is full of:

A. Safe pushes

B. Clarifying questions

C. Mediation of misunderstandings

These are all things I reliably do as scum when I want to coast, and CSF and I just completed a scum game together so the mind-meld makes sense.

But that's not how I play scum

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I didn't get anything out of a quick and dirty skim of ND's meta

Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar.

Why am I on your scum radar?

There was literally zero progression from scumreading popo to scumreading me.

Before I move my vote, I want to know why/when Glitch started scumreading me and townreading popopo

[Cat Scratch Fever]

CSF's ISO is full of:

A. Safe pushes

B. Clarifying questions

C. Mediation of misunderstandings

These are all things I reliably do as scum when I want to coast, and CSF and I just completed a scum game together so the mind-meld makes sense.

But that's not how I play scum

lol, what kind of response is this

It’s not how I play scum and Blair just played scum with me

It is how I play town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk why Blair is scumreading me for making safe pushes. Which pushes seemed safe as opposed to me genuinely scumreading someone?

Why is mediation of misunderstandings a scummy thing to do especially if you think the two people arguing are tvt

[Cat Scratch Fever]

As of page 35, I don't scumread Nauci anymore

holy shit haha

and

I

thought i was late to this game

?

I was effectively inactive from this game for the last few days and was catching up

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Did you ramp up your posts because you realized that you couldn't fly under the radar as silent anymore once popo called you on it? Your change to Nauci feels like crap just trying to get po to not be so laser focused in on you, so you jump to Nauci when you don't even have that solid of an argument there.

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

I'd be okay with NDmath but honestly CSF is much scummier when you look back over the progression of the game.

Your case on me boils down to asking questions, not explaining my reads (lol), and being more engaged in the game when something directly involves me

My questions aren’t useless or lazy- if I think someone has posted something that was unusual, I usually prod for more information. Sometimes it ends up being a dead end but sometimes it leaves information to look back on in later days.

Granted it’s maybe lazy to not explain my reads unless someone asks me, but I’m always willing to oblige if someone asks me to explain a read.

I still stand by my earlier push on nauci- it was weird for her to come in and shitpost where popo and I were posting back and forth but I think that may just be because she was busy irl, because her posting improved later. I still think popo is town based on meta.

Why is it scummy for me to be more interested in the game when something directly engages me?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why does lazy = Scum tho?

If your goal is to fly under the radar and not draw attention, hoping to just wait the day out until others can devour each other, then vague contribution with little commitment and very low content that doesn't help us to get anywhere helps accomplish that goal. Once he was called on that, everything changed. Looks like scum trying to lie low and then when caught is like "oh shit let me immediately unvote the person who is SR'ing me and move my vote to someone who I don't even have a good case for."

Town can and does do that as well. So it's a moot point really.

I'm open to being wrong about these things as any games I play online I tend to be pointed out as the noob who doesn't understand the game, and oftentimes get SR'd for that. But it just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you not contribute and be wishy-washy, vote with a lame argument, and run from your SR when they start to SR you if your wincon is to find scum?

Why can’t I be town who started townreading popo because someone said he was less engaged as scum?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Fwiw I also thought nauci was a worthwhile push because reading one of her games, she was like almost immediately obvtown to me, whereas she wasn’t here.

I’m a meta dependent player, especially in low info day 1.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk I’m weirded out by me as a growing cw to NDMath

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm going to do a close read of NDMath's games

[Cat Scratch Fever]

this is a completely meaningless post

I elaborated in more detail in response to Glitch.

Glitch's case boiled down was basically the same as Blair's

[Cat Scratch Fever]

My main point I was trying to convey is that I think it's suspicious that Blair in particular would scumread me based on what she would do as scum

and not what I would do as scum

Not everyone can play scum with the same ability

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Mediation isn't inherently scummy (almost nothing is), but it's easy to coast on because you will get town points for doing it 99.5% of the time.

As for your scum meta, I actually thought your early posts were strikingly similar to your posts in our scum game together (and Glitch is not actually wrong that your tone did shift at a certain point) - enough so that I was actually scumreading you when I was skimming the game the first time I tried to sub in for Rozyroz.

I'm interested to hear why you feel you are playing differently here than in our last game together.

I think my questions there were noticeably bad that game, e.g. this post:

Spoiler:

If he genuinely believes weak openings are scum tells, that might explain why he avoided RVS althogether. It feels like he avoided early game so he could make pushes like this without any risk of looking hypocritical.

I like this reasoning overall I think

My one hangup rn is, if Maxwell is scum and (presumably) trying to survive, why handout a townread on rozyroz so immediately? If he's scum and rozyroz is town that's a fairly easy avenue to throw shade or pressure, Dunnstral already highlighted it, why does he instead opt for a townread which might make it harder for him to vote there later?

Doesn't this assume rozyroz is town?

Correction: none of those players have said enough to make me suspicious of them

I'm thinking a lot about the likelihood of scum vs town RVS voting me and then making this correction 1-2 minutes later

I think overall I want to say it'd be

really bold

as scum to plan to just outright vote me, a leading wagon, and claim: a) that I haven't posted anything, and then b) actually, it's that nothing I've posted has made them suspicious. Because they would know if I'm lynched I'm going to flip town and everyone is gonna look at this vote and critique why it was made.

At the same time, how can town read the game and not be suspicious of anything anyone has posted?? Why would town RVS vote instead of trying to at least take a stand on something and advance the game, even if only to an incremental degree?

Does anyone have any really strong thoughts here? I'm probably landing on the 'newbie town' side, but it's odd enough that I can't rule it out as scum.

Her second post seemed more like an ebwop/clarification rather than a bold declaration that you haven't made any content - I doubt she was actually claiming that you haven't posted anything. I think it's NAI

I'm not calling you a newbie! I just think your entire viewpoint on how people would play is something I would expect from one. If that makes sense.

Why was this a scummy thing to say?

Me posting a funny meme when there was serious discussion going on in-thead that maxwell called out was 100% true:

Spoiler:

I did accept it. You quoted my acceptance.

Okay, just making sure. Ironically that means a blair/t-bone team is pretty unlikely, seeing as my vote on rozy would give them the win while going after me would ensure a loss. Possibly they could just not be thinking about that possibility but I'd think they'd want to avoid that degree of direct confrontation. I still like my plan with my vote on rozy better (because cat scratch fever needs to die, especially after 191, and the thought of them being in final 3 annoys me) but I'll gladly consent to being the day 1 vote if town agrees to follow my plan (I'll post contingency strategies for scum killing a non-celeste space if that is what people decide on).

Biggest tell is me ducking out of the thread for long periods as scum to avoid real-time interactions... in a blitz game

[Cat Scratch Fever]

this one

[Cat Scratch Fever]

GuiltyLion recognizing I'm playing differently this game is the reaction I expect from people who have looked at my play in this game and the one I just linked (where I was scum)

[Cat Scratch Fever]

(Posting one at a time to make lion happy.)

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

What's there to not understand?

Osuka's posts comprise of the brief fight with Quick, a lot of posts facepalming at Truth which are mostly meaningless, and a very lazy and unsubstantiated push on me.

I scumreads the way that Osuka talks about my posting as "weird" repeatedly without ever explaining weird how—it's exactly the kind of shallow shade throwing without being able to come up with a proper case/narrative that signifies scum pushes vs town ones, especially at an opportune time when others like CSF were FoSing me.

He has repeatedly tried to misconstrue the way I have tried to explain his meta to the game as buddying, even though I've repeatedly told him and everyone else why I said what I did about him and wasn't at buddying. He's not engaging with my push at all or answering my question.

I read osuka's iso, I should have done that in the first place.

What conclusions did you draw from this? Did this impact your read on osuka or Nauci?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

l have a townlean on NDMath

Not like super confident about that, but I think he is a slow burn town player anyway, and his alignment will become more evident as time passes

But the main reason I think he's town is because of his interaction with Guilty. There's already more engagement here than what I'm seeing from his scum game

Spoiler:

I don't buy you thought that it was very scummy unless you can be more specific as to why.

alright, if you ask for it I will indulge!

1. first things first, I didn't like opening with the "let's see if I can remember why I quoted these posts!", feels really performative and buddying up to the thread. feels like you're mindful of how people are going to perceive your entry

2. next, a number of your questions are useless, they don't need to be answered and I don't see how they will generate useful content. Often because there's more content later that makes the answers to the questions irrelevant, or because they're just kinda empty things to discuss. It seems pretty clear that Quick thought at least the 'hood' aspect of Truth's claim was legitimate. CSF has posted a bunch of content to work with, who cares about "avoiding" RVS? Do you really think that's the most indicative thing you could comment on in the first 150 posts, or even the most indicative thing about CSF's play in the game?

3. You also make a number of really hedgey or pointless comments. "Usually pushing for NL comes from scum" (hard disagree btw), "but here it's probably closer to null". Okay? Do you scumread Candy Shop or not? "I find this a likely town mindset though not necessarily townie". What? What's the point of that comment at all?

4. Next, you just voted/unvoted and peaced out. I think town should be at least putting a vote down in that situation to advance the game, even if they're not fully caught up yet. you STILL haven't voted. What are you doing to actually help catch/kill scum? How does town benefit at all from your presence in the game if you're not participating in any wagons?

5. Finally, adding your next post into the mix, it's not really clear to me

at all

why you have any of the reads that you do. Your reads list has most of the players in the game in ambiguous nully tiers with no explanation given as to how they got to be there or where you'd feel comfortable voting. Why am I lower than Candyshop, who is lower than everyone else in the game? Do you think I'm more likely scum? If both myself and Candyshop were at L-1 and you were holding the hammer, you'd vote me over Candy Shop - why? Why are Glitch/Nauci below the four players above them? Would you vote to lynch either of those slots today?

6. None of it is content that is useful to me to help understand your thought process or suggests that you're taking initiative to solve the game for your benefit or anyone else's. It all feels very timid and blendy, like you're just posting a formulaic template of what you think town posts are supposed to look like.

(Numbers Inserted)
1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.
2. Funny enough, both examples you cite are actually looker's words due to it spoilering weirdly.

@Looker

3. Pushing for NL coming from scum is from personal experience it has come from scum more times than town. At the moment in time I wasn't sure, as of completing the catchup I scumread the slot. The comment on tstbs meant that I felt quick's mindset was that of a townie, but I believed it was probably something that mafia could/would fake. I decided to keep it I guess?
4. Voting was accidental due to looker's post quoting weird. I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.
5. The purpose of the readlist was to summarize the catchup and fill in what wasn't said in terms of reads. I'm more willing to hang the further down the list, and I tend to be a more defensive player in that I prefer not having my townreads hung to getting my scumreads hung.
6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

so I just tried to casually skim through NDMath town/scum to see if he always plays this poorly and it looks like this dude has never been scum yet on MS lmao

however, in his completed town games, he's definitely more goal-oriented in terms of votes/pressure and shows the ability to make insightful analysis, compared to what he's offered so far here.
<snip bc spoiler tag>
This is like page 7-8 or whatever of that game and ALL of these posts stand out more to me in terms of trying to sort players, generate content, and share reads to influence than thread than anything you've done here so far. I'll grant you that maybe it's been harder in this game because pages and pages were generated while you weren't around, but tbh if you're town in this game, you'd be far better served just quoting singular posts and giving takes like you did in 227 than doing the giant fluff walls filled with empty statements like you've given us so far.

I interpreted the post as being annoyed they didn't have as many townreads as they would like, and picked you because of prior experience and not having posted as much as other slots.

I scumread candyshop because of his no hang argument and lack of things I see town motivation in. Nauci/glitch I didn't like a few posts from and had them just under null. I strongly scumread you, mainly from your norwee interaction. But basically both of 5/6 are complaints that I didn't attach reasons to my readlist, and I don't see what's inherently wrong with that as it can be clarified and most of the reads weren't very strong.

I meant it more so as I need to first get a grasp on the game.

I guess I don't see/get the difference other than I haven't asked anyone for reads since everyone's given some.

If you look at NDMath's ISO in his scum game (it's very short I promise lol), his reasons for scumreading people feel vague (e.g. the "probably groupthink" line lol). He also interacts differently with his professed scumreads - his posts are dismissive in a way that doesn't encourage further back and forth conversation.

Spoiler:

Why do you scumread me?

Probably group think.
There isn't much I consider townie in your posts. The Albert to you to Dunn chain pass yesterday but then specifically focusing on Dunn to me, I don't really understand. I've already stated that your TSE interaction is looking w/w. Making a scum team entirely out of quiz 1 people, especially not including spring, looks crazy for you to actually believe. Your 'desperation' to be on the quiz today also looked bad.

I think pink ball is a good choice. He’s been under the radar, but he doesn’t feel scummy(Nd)

Good job, you've finally got a firm scum read.

Approve quiz team

Let's see this go through. Another deny is proscum IMO.

I don't get why the chainleaders keep saying denying is Proscum? There's nothing to back that up, and info can be gathered for late game from split approve/denies.

He’s passing it to Dunnstral
If not, he’s giving it to Pink Ball
Mark my words

You are so smart.

I get the sense that he doesn't go after GuiltyLion if he were scum.

I think he's being scumread for largely NAI reasons (NAI for him), like forgetting to use his vote. He also generally seems to be a lynchbaity type of player who gets mislynched a lot

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

[Cat Scratch Fever]

As of page 35, I don't scumread Nauci anymore

holy shit haha

and

I

thought i was late to this game

I originally thought this post was shading me for being too slow to townread Nauci, which doesn't make sense. Can you actually clarify this?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I could potentially see NDMath as scum. 986 is particularly egregious.

Nauci could also be scum, but I feel like I need more from her to sort her.

Looker is prob-town

osuka is prob-town

Truth is newb-town

Norwe is prob-town

Popo is town-lean but again I need more from this slot to sort

Glitch could go either way

Quick is prob-town

GuiltyLion I could go either way

Mavsfan I definitely need more from to sort

I think that's everyone? If I missed someone they're null because I forgot about them entirely.

Why do you think osuka is town? What do you think of Nauci's meta-case on him?

I actually like CSF vs NDMath for today, so if anyone wants to help me make CSF a top-two wagon that'd be swell!

Sheep me!

Now that I think ND is town, I really don't like this post. It was also premature to be deciding which wagons we were going to end the day with considering Blair only replaced into the game like less than 24 hrs and hadn't had time to interact with me or ND afaict

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Cat scratch showing up and posting again on cue after Blairs push. Won't vote ndmath because *reasons* .

Seriously? I said why I think NDMath is town.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What did the modifier, "Now that I think ND is town," add to the logic of this progression?

It looks like you're corralling two Town wagons

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Cat scratchs hop on osuka is opportunistic as fuck. Notice how she only votes osuka after norwe indicates an interest

I’m not sure i’m feeling either a Glitch or CSF lynch today, but i could definitely go for either NDMath or Osuka.

Now osuka is a very easy wagon to park a vote on. This is because a) he has been tunneling truth for being stupid, which I think is NAI but also easy to point to as "scummy" and b) his posting other than that hasn't felt super engaged, which again i find NAI on day 1. And c) one of the most active players in the game just said they'd be fine with a wagon there.

Why wouldn't I just vote NDMath by your same logic?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What did the modifier, "Now that I think ND is town," add to the logic of this progression?

It looks like you're corralling two Town wagons

Ah, so that post is only scummy if both ND and CSF are town?

Given that it is Day 1 and we have zero flips in the game so far, wouldn't that make it objectively null?

no? there were many people in your readslist you had at null and below - why did you want wagons to form on us two specifically when we have several days left on the clock?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I've given up on quote tags, but this is 1153

Now as for the reason for voting osuka, cat scratch cited sheeping Nauci. Nauci isn't even voting osuka, he's voting NDmath, so you're sheeping someone who isn't even convinced of their own point. Id like cat to elaborate on the osuka read, is it just the push on nauci you find scummy cat?

Also cat calling the 3 votes on him as a counterwagon to ND is rich considering I voted her LONG BEFORE ANY ND WAGON and Blair replaced in and came with a fresh scumread. Glitch's vote is the only thing that could fit under that description and his reasoning was fine IMO.

1. This is a really stupid argument because I clearly said I was sheeping Nauci's case and not her vote. I think Nauci only hopped off osuka and voted NDMath because she wanted to form wagons and there was more interest in NDMath. I wouldn't presume osuka isn't her primary scumread, although she can clarify that herself.

2. Your 1 vote on me isn't much of a wagon dude, but I'm not going to argue what constitutes a wagon and what isn't

the primary reason I'm scumreading him for is because he's more engaged in his towngame than his scumgame, and this game looks more like his scumgame. after his early argument from Quick, his impact on the game has decreased

I don't think osuka's push on Truth is productive or just NAI as you say, since nothing is going to change that we aren't lynching her today. One of the things that made me think Glitch could be town is because he dropped pushing Truth once he realized that wasn't going to go through.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I know how long it usually takes to slog through a Day 1 wagon if it's actually on scum - we are at the point in the time line when we need to narrow down our options.

"There's still time!" is a favorite shield for scum, because so many townies actually believe it's anti-town to not use every last ounce of the deadline.

Are your replace-in reads usually accurate or something?

I think your rush to form two wagons when you haven't had the chance to really affirm or challenge your read is scummy.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

When did I forget to use my vote? There are 5 days til deadline and more than one viable wagon

this is a scum post

Spoiler: Newbie Crosswords

Subject: Newbie 1943: Crosswords (Game Over)

Alright might as well mediumclaim:

I know 300% Phone's "claim" is a fakeclaim

this isn't a mediumclaim, it's a jk claim. the only town PR that cannot coexist with a cop in this setup is jk

i've stopped reading at this post and since i havent seen anyone cc, UNVOTE:

you voted in post 1013 only to unvote again in 1033, even though the mod didn't count the unvote for some reason.

your next serious vote is on 1661. basically in your scumgame, you didn't have your vote in play for ~1000 posts (40 pages).

And I'm not saying you're the only viable wagon? This was me telling Quick I'd rather not vote Glitch atp.

Why is this a scumpost?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You only believe that because I rushed to form them on you and someone you're suddenly townreading. (Your words, not mine)

I mean, true it's something I thought was suspicious only after I thought NDMath was towny, but there's scum motivation in building competing wagons on town

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I know I'm town and I think your case on me is pretty weak. I also think I'm playing a very different game to my scumgames which you've seen.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Osuka I am bewildered more than anything. The extent of his truth interaction doesn't make sense to me for either alignment. There's nothing wrong in the nature of the attacks on him but the points are fully in his control and scum!osuka probably(?) wouldn't have played into that situation in the first place. (Grant, I have no experience with osuka.)
<...>
Blair's iso isn't anywhere near as bad as I thought it was.

Glitch looks like a scum player who makes attacks on not-necessarily-scummy inconsistencies and similar.
VOTE: Glitch
Like you said nothing which rings as town-motivated analysis.

Towniest
Quick Norwee
Looker
Catscratch
Mavs popo nauci --null
osuka Blair
Guilty Glitch

bro why are you voting the only guy in your bottom 4 that doesn't have any other votes on them?

also how are osuka and blair in your second from bottom tier based on your explanations?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why is osuka siding so hard with Blair here and then voting for CSF when CSF isn't Scummy?

CSF is scummy though

write a spicy narrative for why you think i'm scum

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Those of you who are scum, good job getting my wagon to this point

Those of you who are town, please get in your head that you evidently can’t read me

Why should we townread you

[Cat Scratch Fever]

UNVOTE:

I would like time to think if scum!osuka would go all-in on Truth here before he claims

and also there's like 3 people who haven't said anything about the osuka wagon lately

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why is osuka siding so hard with Blair here and then voting for CSF when CSF isn't Scummy?

CSF is scummy though

write a spicy narrative for why you think i'm scum

Those of you who are scum, good job getting my wagon to this point

Those of you who are town, please get in your head that you evidently can’t read me

Why should we townread you

I'd like to see these answered

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why is osuka siding so hard with Blair here and then voting for CSF when CSF isn't Scummy?

CSF is scummy though

write a spicy narrative for why you think i'm scum

I'd like to see these answered

everything until 221 is shallow but im willing to forgive that since the beginning of the game can be slow
221 you have a tr-ish on me
227 you sound suspicious of truth
231 iioa
276 you think me vs quick is tvt
499 tr on glitch
537 is bad justification for a vote that feels is just meant to put more momentum behind a wagon
562 you still mention me vs quick as tvt
1054 you say that your read on nauci actually flipped
1147 you vote me

you literally never engaged my slot directly and the only mentions of anything resembling a read on me implied or meant I was town in your opinion. this strikes me as very opportunistic for a few reasons:
1. glitch made a big case on you in 1090 and put you at 3 votes (second most at the time)
2. you never expressed a scumread on me
3. GL had voteparked me, so you wouldn't be The Only Vote™ on me

Why is my progression

scummy

If I think Nauci started townposting and made a good case on you while I was gone, there's no reason for me to

not

shift my opinion of you. I was away from the thread for a few days - at what point do you expect me to have engaged you? I would like you to point this out.

I don't think I need a reason to engage you before voting you. I can always engage you after voting for you. After all, here I am, still talking to you.

of particular note is the fact that norwi voted me not a minute after that,

and

he was previously on your wagon (distancing?)

He wasn't, he was on NDMath before that.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This reads as shit. Clear TR on osuka while it's easy up to halfway through the game, then drop off and say nothing about him. Let a long time pass and then as soon as osuka pushes even a little bit on you, you vote against him for bs reasons. That's some scummy shit setting yourself up to be able to say, "Well I had good reasons, Nauci just said them already," but that's just an easy excuse not to make your own case or bring original content or reasoning to the table. Why we would lynch osuka who is confusing AF as opposed to CSF who is clearly scum doesn't make sense to me.

Do you think osuka did enough to sustain my early TR on him? His engagement dropped off at some point, and it made perfect sense to reverse my read there.

The idea that people need original reasons to vote someone is very wrong. It's important to recognize a good case when you see it, so town doesn't run around in different directions like headless chickens.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i never said i think your progression is scummy. I said that there was zero progression to begin with, genius

the fact that you didnt engage my slot for 500 posts means that either your read on me is fabricated, or you had a scumread on me that you literally never thought to discuss with town. I find the second one much more difficult to believe

I barely posted for like >300 posts, so this is very not the argument you think it is.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

*I barely posted for like >300 posts in that very interval you are talking about

Why are you ignoring this?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't think I need a reason to engage you before voting you

this in particular is just really, really sad

Why? I was like the second vote on you - there was going to be ample time afterwards to talk to you and evaluate you on your play.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't think I need a reason to engage you before voting you. I can always engage you after voting for you. After all, here I am, still talking to you.

HOL' UP

...!!!

Didn't you shade me for voting for you without taking the time to engage with you first?

I shaded you for directing town onto two wagons when you first replaced in

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It was also premature to be deciding which wagons we were going to end the day with considering Blair only replaced into the game like less than 24 hrs and hadn't had time to interact with me or ND afaict

I mean, I wasn't telling people, "Today's wagons should be between osuka and NDMath!"

I wasn't saying today's wagons should have between osuka vs anyone

at all

.

That's a big part of my argument, and you're stripping some of the nuance from it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You specifically said it was because I hadn't had time to interact with you or ND yet. (see quote above)

Yet here I am, interacting with you now. Which is your precise defense to osuka.

Yeah I appreciate that you're taking the time to engage me. I'm not really sure you're trying to understand my thought process though.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Everyone is stripping all of the nuance from my original vote for you so why do we suddenly care about nuance now?

I voted for you even though Norwe wanted me to vote for NDMath. I said this was because, even though Norwe wanted to settle on an NDMath lynch, I was ok with the lynch being between NDMath and you.

For some reason you and Quick have transformed this into a magical narrative where Blair mind-controls the entire thread into only voting for NDMath or CSF - even though I only gave that dichotomy as justification for my own vote.

I admit I don't think you ever said we needed to

end the day

on me & NDMath, which is why I haven't further prosecuted this point.

I did have the impression that you wanted to end the day with these wagons at the time though.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

unfortunately I can't really tell you why you should townread me other than the fact that i'm town and i've been playing wincon, so i can tell you for a fact that everything i've done this game was from a town mindset. i can't read myself _and_ i got a role PM that tells me my alignment so I'm doubly biased, that's a fucking loaded question

Going back to this, I don't think my question was loaded. (for reference, my question was "Why should we townread you?")

You accuse people of being dumb town or scum for voting for you. Do you think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you here? Is this game a deviation from your town meta etc etc

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I admit I don't think you ever said we needed to end the day on me & NDMath, which is why I haven't further prosecuted this point.

I did have the impression that you wanted to end the day with these wagons at the time though.

Here's what happened:

I subbed in.

I voted for you.

Norwe said something akin to "That's fine but you should really just help us lynch NDMath"

I responded that I was ok with NDMath and CSF being the competing wagons for the day.

Since then other people have jumped in and screamed at me that I'm an anti-town psychopath for implying we should even be considering competing wagons yet (while suspiciously not pushing Norwe for giving me the impression we were ready for that in the first place).

Norway has been in the game from the beginning and engaged with multiple people by the time you replaced in though.

Meanwhile you replaced in and had read a bunch of content, so I expected you to need some more time to get your bearings first if that makes sense

I don't think your two situations are exactly the same thing

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Do you think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you here?

You have some gall to ask this question when your entire game has been lackluster and full of fluff. Do

you

think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you? What are you top pro-town moves in this game? Sheeping onto wagons with no thoughts of your own?

If osuka thinks he's played his usual towngame, then I can see why he thinks people voting for him are stupid (or delusional, to use his exact words).

If osuka acknowledges that he hasn't played to his usual level as town, then I don't know why he's calling the people voting for him stupid. He's admitted that he's being lazier than usual this game, so I thought it was worth asking him whether he thought the metareads on him had any merit. His answer wasn't that useful though.

My question literally had nothing to do with how I think I'm playing. I don't think I've called people voting for me stupid

I think I am well within my town range and easily out of my scum range, but this playerlist doesn't have that much experience with me.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think I'm town because:
- I try to understand people's thought processes. If I were scum, why would I bother engaging osuka in this scenario? osuka was at L-1 and multiple people had stated they were ready to end the day.
--- do you think I'm engaging people in good faith?

- I actually have real-time interactions instead of just posting in thread and ducking out
--- My stances are clear, and if you need them explained, I can explain them to you without having to think for a long time like I do as scum

- I take the time to look at people's past games like GL, popo and NDMath

- I don't care how I look, e.g. by putting popo to L-2.

I disagree that I'm a fluffposter. Maybe this was true early game or even mid game, but by now, I think I've posted enough readable content.

My meta is available for everyone to see. I even alt slipped

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What are you top pro-town moves in this game

btw, you say osuka not wanting to end the day quickly is pro-town in 1411. Sure I agree in principle - but is this hard to fake as scum? Furthermore, since osuka was the most likely one getting lynched when he said that, do you not think scum!osuka would very much say this as well?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Shrug

I think you’re in a bad tunnel if you think all of that is NAI

That’s not what I meant by good faith btw. People can get frustrated or even rude and still push in good faith. really what I meant was am I absorbing new information and reassessing my reads. Am I engaging people with the intention of making them look scummy or am I really trying to figure out their alignment or something to that effect

[Cat Scratch Fever]

1. Engaging osuka: If you were town, you'd do it because you were scum hunting. If you were scum, you'd engage osuka because scum's job is to be undetected and when osuka flips town you'll be able to point back to this and say, "Look how town I was, I was really trying to figure out if he was scum and I was just wrong." There's a motivation both ways so your first point is NAI.

Also I think I am/was the next highest wagon after osuka

If pressure is relieved from osuka in part because of my unvote, it’s very evident the tide would shift onto me.

So I wouldn’t give up pressure on osuka in my position

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think I'm town

OMEGALUL

Really

I obviously meant it as “I think you should townread me because”

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: osuka

L-1

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i never said i think your progression is scummy. I said that there was zero progression to begin with, genius

the fact that you didnt engage my slot for 500 posts means that either your read on me is fabricated, or you had a scumread on me that you literally never thought to discuss with town. I find the second one much more difficult to believe

I barely posted for like >300 posts, so this is very not the argument you think it is.

*I barely posted for like >300 posts in that very interval you are talking about

Why are you ignoring this?

Your scumcase on me is basically debunked by the fact that I was away from the thread for a few days

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think I'm town

OMEGALUL

And this post is scummy

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This is false and a blatant misrep

Why? You accuse me of having zero progression before voting for you but what trajectory do you expect if I were away from the thread

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I want to know why you're

so convinced

that I'm fabricating this, if this is a real thought from you or if this is something you're just saying to sway the lynch

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Norway what do you think of his claim? I'm a bit surprised he claimed VT as scum here

[Cat Scratch Fever]

your read went from town to "let's lynch this"

I think more accurately, my read on you went from town to scum, but I wasn't ready to lynch you until like the previous page

vote first ask questions later blah blah

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think he's just town. I doubt he would stick around post hammer if he were scum

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why do you think GuiltyLion is scum again?

Agreed on Norway still being town. town!osuka doesn't really change my read there

[Cat Scratch Fever]

GG scum

Thanks for modding Deimos! The game was modded very well