Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Glitch]

Good evening folks,

Interesting. I would like everyone to know I am a Miller Mason. I have buddies but I won't be revealing who they are at this time. For now, I will act as their representative.

What is that even supposed to mean, act as their representative?

59 does not come from any town with an iq that has anywhere near 3 digits

Truth's immediate claim is kinda ballsy unless it's true. I feel 59 was just pushing back, why is it such a bad idea?

Changing gears, 44 isn't the greatest comeback with the whole fake millers are all mafia argument (if I'm understanding that right). That would be such a huge downfall for the scum if they identified together and then one gets lynched and we find out who they are. Of course we would take the rest down. That just sounds like a terrible strategy I would never think the scum would use unless they were complete morons. So VOTE: LicketyQuickety because scum aren't stupid and we have to hunt smart.

Lick, what would your strategy be as scum? Fly under the radar? Big and bold to seem fearless of dying? Something else?

[Glitch]

Sorry I'm new to playing online, what's SR?

[Glitch]

Yeah I have played for years face to face and have a lot of fun with it. That's how I've always played. If I suspect someone, I prod and ask questions to get answers and more to go on. You're the only one I see making an argument that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Glitch]

Lots to catch up on. I'll quote and respond as I read through.

Why would a neighbor claim mason if they were town? What's the motivation there instead of just straight up claiming neighbor?

I may have 1 buddy, I may have 2, I may have 3. Either way, I am going to use the plural form.

popo, why is it a bad idea to out if I'm just in a neighbourhood?

What's with the backpedaling? It seems like you claimed right off the bat and then realized it wasn't the greatest idea so you're going to leave it a little more open ended and open some other possibilities up. Why?

Either way, I am going to use the plural form.

Why? Don't you think that muddies the waters beyond reason?

No. It gives the mafia unnecessary information.

I second this. I'm pretty confident it's masons and not a hood. Mafia knowing how many are on whatever other faction this is would be disadvantageous because they would immediately know exactly what they're playing against. IE if they know there's 3 masons they know they have to be careful not to end up in a 4v3 where 3 of 4 town are masons or it all comes down to one swing vote, then they could plan accordingly. Whereas if they don't know how many they're up against it's just one less piece of information they have to strategize with. I would say let's leave it a mystery for now and figure more info on it out later in the game. If it were a neighborhood and there's scum in the hood, that means they know how many are in the hood and which ones are town right? So in that scenario it twists it up a little bit and it may actually be beneficial for us to have the conversation of who's in the neighborhood, because then we could have a narrower pool to draw from of who is scum. But that presumes one of them is scum (which I would think would be depending on the size of the neighborhood.) So if Truth were in hood, I think it wouldn't be smart to leave that info out. It'd be best to just talk about it. But if he were actually a mason, it's best to leave the number of masons unknown to the scum. It sounds to me like Truth claimed right off the bat a little too rashly, then backpedaled realizing he could be an early target and opened up some other options for scum to reconsider lynching him. Scum would see through this though because if it were a hood, chances are one of them would be in it. So honestly at this point I mostly believe Truth's original claim that he is a mason and I see no reason to push back against that claim.

I may or may not be in a neighbourhood. I am open to someone claiming neighbours with me which I will play along with. Of course, it might also be my real neighbour if I am in a neighbourhood. This would be the Wifom element at play, and should make it difficult for mafia to decide whether I am a Mason or a neighbour.

This argument didn't come into play until later. I'm pretty unconvinced there's a neighborhood going on. If I'm wrong, you are in a hood and you're scum and don't want to out all the other town in the hood because it would bring you under more suspicion. I don't think that's the case but we'll keep tabs on that as we go.

As I continue reading I see multiple comments like 131 and 132 saying masons are unlikely and it has to be a hood but I'm just not totally convinced of that. I can see it going masons if there's just two and Truth is bluffing. Or there could be three masons and scum has PRs to balance it out.

Or I'm wrong and there is a neighborhood going on and either Truth is the scum in it or there is no scum in the hood. But until we have more info on this, I'm strongly leaning masons and don't want a Truth lynch at this point.

Good evening folks,

Interesting. I would like everyone to know I am a Miller Mason. I have buddies but I won't be revealing who they are at this time. For now, I will act as their representative.

What is that even supposed to mean, act as their representative?

59 does not come from any town with an iq that has anywhere near 3 digits

Truth's immediate claim is kinda ballsy unless it's true. I feel 59 was just pushing back, why is it such a bad idea?

Changing gears, 44 isn't the greatest comeback with the whole fake millers are all mafia argument (if I'm understanding that right). That would be such a huge downfall for the scum if they identified together and then one gets lynched and we find out who they are. Of course we would take the rest down. That just sounds like a terrible strategy I would never think the scum would use unless they were complete morons. So VOTE: LicketyQuickety because scum aren't stupid and we have to hunt smart.

Lick, what would your strategy be as scum? Fly under the radar? Big and bold to seem fearless of dying? Something else?

Did you mean to say "fake masons" instead of "fake millers" in this post?

Yes my bad. First game online with a mason claim and I haven't worked through this before this game.

Glitch, I don't understand why in that post you voted for Quick. Maybe I'm misreading the post, but can you elaborate on your case for that vote?

I voted Lick cause I like to put pressure on people when they make me raise an eyebrow. People under pressure gives us more info. If they're scum under pressure, maybe they'll crack or slip a little and it'll help the town. If they're town, maybe they'll show us how they keep their cool or make a solid defense and it'll help the town. Unless they're just just shitty at playing, which we can also evaluate, it generally will help the town to lay on the pressure. I think a lynch this early would be stupid, but I'm not going to straight up be like, "Oh hey Lick I don't actually wanna lynch you but I'm gonna vote you for the pressure," cause that literally defeats the purpose. But that's why - stack some votes up and see what happens.

Do you think Truth is telling the truth about his role?

Why are you trying to avoid RVS?

---

VOTE: LicketyQuickety Consider it a reward for your...effort

Why with all this to go on would we still be in RVS?

So I haven’t fully finished the read but wanted to comment about LicketyQuickety going after the miller/mason claim. In 84, you mention the two possibilities for going after Truth’s claim. I would argue it’s #1 and he’s new vs #2. Post 52 should tell you that. Truth saying he has his mason buddies coming forward to verify his claim, that would look horrible coming from scum. If scum!Truth is fake claiming miller/mason then his buddies would be scum. To 1) be scum and suggest his partners will verify his claim is one helluva gambit if ANYONE of them were to be lynched, you could easily link them together 2) to not know how that would sound saying he has buddies coming forward with players being skeptical of his claim and not being aware of the optics of this. This tells me that he hasn’t even considered how scummy it would be to say “hey guys. I have a private chat and will show guilty to a cop’s investigation, but don’t worry cause I’ve got people in that private chat to verify I’m town.” That sounds scummy af and Truth seems to just not have even considered the optics. Basically his 52 reads to me like someone being like I’m confirmed town cause my buddies will back me up without even considering scum could make the same exact claim with scum buddies backing that fake claim up. As of right now, I hafta accept his claim here (at least for now).

It would be ballsy for scum to claim that all together but I feel like it would be too risky for them cause if we vote one of them off and they're scum then the rest that claimed with the lynched one would all get voted off too unless it was a hood with both sides on it. I just don't think that's a solid option unless the scum are really really wreckless noobs.

Mafia will know I am confirmed town because I am either telling the truth or lying and am mafia. So they would want to kill a confirmed town in the night.

Well shit
Maybe he is wreckless noob lol
wtaf

i meant to quote the whole post there.

So in case of a lynch without any info, we're more likely to hit town than mafia. Accordingly, we have to get more info on scum from the lynch than the value of losing a player.

I'm sure that we're marginally more likely to hit mafia with this method on the first day than a completely random RNG lynch but that is not the test IMO.

The real test is whether the net information gained from the reactions of people from being pressured outweighs the high chance of a potential loss of a townie. When I say net information I also mean to include negative utility information for town such as the fact that the mafia knows of the existence of a masonry when it did not need to.

This logic works better the more investigative roles there are in the game though because the more there are the more it makes sense to wait for a night.

I haven't seen anything yet to lose a townie in a 13 player game so far.

VOTE: NO LYNCH

Bro this is just really stupid. I get what you're saying about how important it is that our first lynch is as educated as possible and we want to knock out the right person. I get it. But to just give scum a head start like that when we have two weeks of discussion at our fingertips is a terrible place to start. And what's worse is that your vote isn't even being used as pressure against the person you're voting for. By nature of a NL you're genuinely wanting a no lynch. At least when you vote for a person you're not advocating to lynch them, you may just be pressuring them making them think they're up. Please use your vote as a tool, not waste it on a NL.

Do you feel we have a legitimate claim 7 pages in?

I don't think there is a rule that you can't claim within 7 pages...

What do YOU think about the claim? Do you believe they are millar?

I'm just gonna say Looker really bugs me with the very little contribution he has. There's nothing good he contributed here.

Just read 183. yup

Could I suggest we move on from this discussion for now and pretend it didn't happen?

This supports my argument of masons, not hood, above.

Then there's 273. Ew. LQ I really feel like you just raged so hard and were so upset with osuka that you SR'd him. Right on the heels of 271, osuka's playstyle makes sense. I feel like going so hardcore at each other isn't getting anywhere. Do you have any reads other than osuka that you feel solid about??

Reads
Truth - shit town mason. If I'm wrong neighborhood scum
Lick - sketch at first, then was confused for a while, then the ugly page 9-10 osuka vs LQ battle I'm reading is just confusing. I think osuka has solid arguments and
osuka - town but omg does this guy have any friends or does he just hate everyone lol
Looker - lurky and non-contributive, I want more content pls
Cat scratch - townyish but just based off a few things, I could sway

Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Could they not be performing an act of WIFOM? Where they intentionally push each other with reasons that seem legitimate, but it's because they know people will think they are town for doing them.

osuka appeared like he outright disbelieved me and thought I was mafia but then didn't push me or vote me. I feel the only reason for this is because he is scared for being suspected for it and wanted to see if others would vote me first.

Who do you think I should look at instead?

Truth bro stop asking people how you should play and what you should do, just do it. LQ vs osuka is freaking huge and dramatic and that would be a really bold move on scum. osuka's play in previous games matches up with what they're doing here so unless LQ and osuka are crazy skilled I really doubt we have 2 scum making an uproar in the thread to make us think they aren't together. Especially not this early.

SORRY FOR THE WALL

[Glitch]

Need more info to figure out this whole LQ vs osuka shitshow

I want to know more about LQ and his playstyle and see what's going on. LQ never answered my question at the beginning:

Lick, what would your strategy be as scum? Fly under the radar? Big and bold to seem fearless of dying? Something else?

My vote stays on you for now cause this whole thing confuses me and you're not looking squeaky clean

[Glitch]

Lick, what would your strategy be as scum? Fly under the radar? Big and bold to seem fearless of dying? Something else?

I don't actually want to answer this since I have a pretty sure fire way to win as Scum. No, this is not my Scum game because you wouldn't know I was Scum if I was Scum because I've never played with you before.

fair

299

Most of this is just IIoA without really committing to anything. I didn't even see a vote in this post, which concerns me a lot actually.

Cause you hadn't answered my question in 70 and you still haven't answered my question in 299:

LQ (...) Do you have any reads other than osuka that you feel solid about??

[Glitch]

I am reading. I don't remember everything. I am suspicious of Osuka as well so I can help here. VOTE: Osuka

How could you possibly have missed that? It's on the same page you said people were too focussed on your claim that I pointed out Osuka is too focussed on your claim. How exactly DID you miss that?

he actually can be forgiven for missing your "push" because honestly I'm staggered that you dared call it a push in the first place

I didn't call it a push.

Osuka thinks this post by you was a backpedal because you said you were pushing him earlier in 195

osuka, why is that backpedal more likely to come from scum than town?

Why are they both town? As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it. They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake. I'm gut townreading osuka. Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

ofrhz these are all your posts so far. Do you have any reads that aren't on LQ or osuka?

[Glitch]

lol wow k

[Glitch]

Lick - sketch at first, then was confused for a while, then the ugly page 9-10 osuka vs LQ battle I'm reading is just confusing. I think osuka has solid arguments and

This got cut off. What's your read on Quick?

Quick feels scummy to me which is one of two reasons I didn't change my vote in that wall.

[Glitch]

I like GuiltyLion's case and may follow him for a while. Let's vote the person so he feels more pressure when he comes back and then has to respond while being a little self-conscious.

This is literally terrible, if it weren't for your mason claim I would have been scum reading you so hard this entire game. Literally all his reason to be self-conscious from your vote goes away now.

why is it a bad idea to out if I'm just in a neighbourhood?

There is nothing wrong with that at all actually. Just that it makes your play more complicated given you said it was masons when it wasn't. This could just be based on ignorance, but then again not because you claimed millar. Which means you knew on some level that your hood (never heard of a millar mason before) could be made of Town AND Scum. If that's the case, then perhaps outing the hood would be a good idea given if you really are millar there is likely one Scum in the hood. I can see a 3 person hood with one millar and one Scum and another just Town. That's actually not far from where I see things heading with hoods given mods have tended to use them so much. I could also buy that you are just Scum, thought the hood was actually a masonry, and claimed millar as a kind of "oops" that you couldn't have known how hoods work.

Glitch, I'd like your take on this post.

I agree with your evaluation but I really don't think it's a hood

and

Truth is town simultaneously. I feel like the odd man out with everyone talking about a neighborhood like it's a real possibility, meanwhile I've never played a game with a neighborhood and yet I feel pretty strongly that wouldn't be the case if truth is town. If it's a hood, from what I've read there's almost certainly scum in the hood. The scum player would not want their group to be outed and identified because that narrows down a pool to choose from for scum. I would assume the scum in the hood would promptly tell his neighbors not to out that they're in a hood. So it doesn't make sense why the others in the hood would be okay with Truth claiming, which Truth "as their spokesperson" is doing. It DOES make sense to claim mason because then it's all town. I just don't understand why everyone thinks there is a hood and thinks Truth is town too.

But if Truth

is

the scum in the hood with one or two other town then a neighborhood makes sense.

@Truth

- is there any reason not to suspect that you are the scum in the hood, so you claimed millar mason so if you were investigated by the cop you showed scum? Scum claiming millar seems like a super obvious play but your gameplay so far is just really terrible and I would believe this.

VOTE: Truth. Didn't think I'd do that but as I think through this neighborhood vs mason shit it's either masons and he's town playing horrible or a hood and he's scum, and I want some answers.

What's with the backpedaling? It seems like you claimed right off the bat and then realized it wasn't the greatest idea so you're going to leave it a little more open ended and open some other possibilities up. Why?

I was actually okay with being lynched so that I could be confirmed, and it would confirm my buddies as masons. But they suggested against this idea.

Why would your lynch be beneficial to the town if you confirmed your buddies? Are you now in agreement with your buddies who didn't agree with this plan, or are you still okay with being lynched to supposedly help the town?

I'm actually going to pull back on my SR of popo for ~reasons~

tf is this

Glitch and Looker, remind me why you two are voting Quick?

Cause he felt scummy and I wanted some answers to questions

---~---

GL vs NB looks like GL is grasping at petty things ("you're talking too fancy for you") on a mad scum hunt that's going in the wrong direction. I think pressure on Truth, popopo, and looker right now would be much more productive than continuing a squabble with NB. I also think if we can look through NB's attitude, that he's got some solid content (150, 186, 340).

[Glitch]

Truth let's look at all your votes so far.

I do not understand LicketyQuickety's reason to townread GuiltyLion based on him voting for Norwegianboy. Norwegainboy was yet to post.

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I would like you to elaborate on your reasons.

Still early. Easy time to vote with little consequences.

I am okay with not lynching today. Going to even numbers alive on a day is bad, but if a doctor protects me we would actually be back on odd numbers. And not lynching on the first day is better than later on because of the proportion of mafia and town.

VOTE: no lynch

This is either shit town or shit scum, either way it's shit.

I am reading. I don't remember everything. I am suspicious of Osuka as well so I can help here.

VOTE: Osuka

Sheeping and can't even remember why.

I like GuiltyLion's case and may follow him for a while. Let's vote the person so he feels more pressure when he comes back and then has to respond while being a little self-conscious.

VOTE: NorwegianboyEE

popo feels like mafia as well.

I already wrote why this is just terrible and doesn't successfully put pressure on anyone.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

Lazy sheeping.

Truth you look awful brozie. Do you have any scum reads that aren't sheeping someone else or lazy go-with-the-flow votes?

[Glitch]

I know I'm still talking about Truth right now while no one else is but I am really not convinced to stop reading him as scum yet so I have more questions before I can let this go.

Why would your lynch be beneficial to the town if you confirmed your buddies? Are you now in agreement with your buddies who didn't agree with this plan, or are you still okay with being lynched to supposedly help the town?

Because then if my buddies had to claim mason, you would know it's truthful and not mafia trying to get away with a fake claim.

I still think I would be an okay lynch. It would confirm us and it would stop people wasting time discussing me. But I will listen to my buddies and not self-vote or push for this.

Once again, this is terrible.

@Truth

- Why is a town death worth confirming your mason/hood buddies as town? If it's a hood, how do you know they're all town? If you claimed and then are okay with dying to prove your claim so that your buddies are shown to be legit, then why not just wait to get lynched or until one of you are on the chopping block? There's just no logical thought behind this at all. I feel like this has got to be scum in the hood but no one else is at peace with pushing this and I can't get anywhere as a one person wagon. Shifting gears:

Spoiler: Quote from Looker

do you have any reads

I feel you're just saying that because it's an easy thing to say.

Looker needs to give some reads/any reads

I think it'd be easier if you just voted me instead of pretending to scumhunt.

here's my "taking a look at the whole game" reads for Norwegian:

Townies: CSF, Nauci, Lickety, Candy Shop
don't feel like voting today but maybe a scum: Looker, osuka
has not played the game yet: rozyroz
self-resolving: Truth
could see myself voting today: mavsfan, glitch
one of these two is scum: Norway, popopopopoppopopoopp

p-edit: What am I misdirecting away from? I replied directly to the latest two people that voted me

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever /

rozyroz

NDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Why is Nauci town again? I feel like she’s been taking safe stances

I feel like {Glitch | Candy Shop | Mavsfan | Cat Scratch Fever |

rozyroz

NDMath | Osuka} are the safe ones.

---

VOTE: GuiltyLion How many people on your wagon are scum?

This whole post is kinda shallow and I don't think I've seen anything substantive from you prior to this. But after this, your posts seem to line up with what you claimed here:

I should have more time to post this weekend; sorry I've been so busy.

Breaking down your posts, you kept your word that you'll spend more time over the weekend on this. You have a pattern of a post in the AM and a post in the PM each day, but there's more content from you on your posts last night and today. I like the vibe of 544 ramping up and then 620 and 681 your push on popo is towny.

Should we quickly lynch

No. It doesn't matter what comes after or what completes this sentence. No.

Does anyone have thoughts on my push against Truth? Why are we dismissing it saying that it will work itself out when his play is so bad? I feel like maybe Truth as scum has come out publicly and the other scum in the thread are trying to push attention away from him and steer suspicion in other directions.

Is millar the same thing as miller?

Yes, and that's a semi Town-slip from you.

I don't want to lynch Truth today.

Can you elaborate please?
---

Spoiler: Quote from Nauci

I'll give you some action for now because of the post I called out earlier looking so, so bad

VOTE: GuiltyLion

If I were scum, what motivation would I have had to unvote before going to bed lol

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

After 530 where you buffed up your experience and abilities, I feel like this is shallow and poor reasoning. If you were scum, your motivation to unvote before going to bed would literally be so you could make this post pages later. If you're town, then of course your unvote is out of legitimate concern. But scum is perfectly capable of this too and your unvote would have looked more towny if you didn't try to play it to your advantage to make you look more towny.

I'm still reading through things, catching up from page 22. I'm about to read popopo's defense but gotta take a break and go eat some dinner. I'll write more when I get back.

[Glitch]

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

This post claiming issues with my vote is leaving out the VITAL fact that I am norwe's vote slave. In doing that, he completely misrepresented my supposed reasoning for switching votes. The push feels fake and based off a misrep. Norwe was cranking the pressure up pretty hard my man guilty needed a release.

Okay so now is the time to just stop with this whole vote slave bullshit. Start voting according to actual suspicions you have and not ones that are just spoon fed to you by your vote master. It is pro-town for us to get legitimate, un-tinted reads on you, not skewed and mixed up reads because we're trying to decipher between what's your genuine read on someone vs your vote master's read. Besides, if you're openly just casting votes to build up wagon numbers then the power of a wagon on someone is weakened. We have to maintain the pressure of a wagon and not sabotage one of our tools for getting scum to out themselves. Wagon people but don't defeat your own vote's power by publicizing, "I'm just following the leader with my vote to put people under more pressure." This is a variation of the exact conversation I had with Truth in my previous 2 posts.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

i mean who tf knows with this guy. He wants to nolynch, then he wants to quick lynch. Idk his alignment but certified VI

Can you actually make an effort rather than just being like "Omg Idk I just know you suck?" What would your reads be on him if he hadn't claimed mason? What are your thoughts on if he is the scum in a hood?

i owe norwe big, more than owe him im in debt to him. the reactions i am getting for this schtick also has been and will continue to be fruitful

When will you have to pick between loyalty to Norway or to this town and get off the fence? How long do you intend to continue this? We have a lot of discussion on your vote slave ordeal to discuss, now can you stop so we can get a different perspective to read you?

---~---

idk about "can't be scum with GL" since I don't bother with pre-flip associations but I want to wagon this

VOTE: Nauci

She seemed interested in figuring out popo's alignment earlier, but then this wagon on him built up to L-2

and

popo dropped a readslist and she pops in but doesn't comment on either at all.

This makes me want to iso Nauci. I'll be looking into.

---~---

Reading up p26 Norway v GL feels TvT even though I haven't been able to figure out my read on GL up until now. This interaction feels towny from GL but I still havent been able to sort out his previous 1v1 earlier on. I need to go back and re-read it to clear up some haziness I have there. I have a hard time reading GL's posts and comprehending what the point is.

---~---

Town reads are Noway and Cat Scratch right now. Norway vs GL recently gives off such strong scum hunting vibes from both sides and as an isolated argument feels TvT. I just want Noway to tell popopo to stop following his lead. I need to reread some of GL's earlier gameplay and then read through Norway vs GL with those revised lenses on. Cat has strong points and great townie questions in 537, 539, 548, 549, and 703.

Town lean to Looker as explained in 692
Town points to Quick on 521

Null on Candy shop. I started off by reading town but the lack of posts has me asking questions, particularly why is he still voting no lynch?? 442 was great questioning that sounded towny but there's been nothing since 473 and the vote is still on no lynch and that's just weird and gives me strange vibes.

Scum lean on popopo for everything at the top of this post
Scum read still on Truth for literally every post he's made

Interested in going back to reread up on Nauci and GL as I feel like there's some meat there I haven't gotten to. Struggling to keep up with y'all but doing my best.

tl;dr version: VOTE: popopopopo because I'm not down with a GL wagon until I go back and re-read, and popopo's defense has been shit basically just saying he owes Norway and he's doing it for reactions to talk about. Popopopopo can you stop being vague and irrational about when you'll stop voting with norway, and answer my questions above in response to your 555? It could very well be that you're scum trying to use this vote slave bullshit as a way to fly under everyone else's radar, and when it didn't work, the best way for you to push through a wagon on yourself is to stick to your guns and look like you've just been doing it for 1)loyalty to Norway, 2)scumhunting by getting reactions, or 3)shits and giggles all along. Pushing all this would be a great guise for scum except that you're twisted up in your own net and haven't been able to fly low.

And if that wasn't your plan, then your plan could have been to rile up all this nonsense and look so bold no one would think scum would do something so risky. Idk which way it goes, but each way I see at the moment looks messy unless you can just give us some original thoughts and original votes that aren't based on Norway and then we can get some un-tainted reads on you.

[Glitch]

Spoiler: sorry

Reading up p26 Norway v GL feels TvT even though I haven't been able to figure out my read on GL up until now. This interaction feels towny from GL but I still havent been able to sort out his previous 1v1 earlier on. I need to go back and re-read it to clear up some haziness I have there. I have a hard time reading GL's posts and comprehending what the point is.

---~---

Town reads are Noway and Cat Scratch right now. Norway vs GL recently gives off such strong scum hunting vibes from both sides and as an isolated argument feels TvT. I just want Noway to tell popopo to stop following his lead. I need to reread some of GL's earlier gameplay and then read through Norway vs GL with those revised lenses on. Cat has strong points and great townie questions in 537, 539, 548, 549, and 703.

I meant to combine these two paragraphs into one to be less repetitive. Sorry, I'm trying to not wall it up every time I post but I'm not able to get on here frequently enough to make smaller posts more frequently.

Quote from Looker

Where did you end up on Looker? You started out saying his post was shallow and then you liked one of his pushes.

Towny vibes but not strong enough for a solid read that way. Just town points. The point I was trying to make was that his promise of too busy during the week to being able to get into on the weekend held true, so his early posts were kind of useless but this weekend he has been contributing good content. His push against popo is what stood out as the difference in his play getting serious over the weekend, his 681 particularly. Decent vibes, need more like that and more in general before I would straight up town read him but town lean is fair.

[Glitch]

Truth's wincon is to get himself killed,
thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[Glitch]

Glitch, Truth is definitely not making it near LYLO so why don't you just focus on everybody else for now? That's why we're ignoring it—this slot WILL be resolved eventually but it's not terribly useful to do it today no matter how many scummy posts they make.

That's why I'm shifting gears to Popo and others. That said, it doesn't make sense to me why we shouldn't discuss something just because the majority has just dismissed it for tomorrow. If there's a legitimate concern that truth is scum, Ben the scummiest thing for his scum Partners to do would be to try and just put off the Mason discussion until further notice. It's not like it hurts the town at all to talk about these things. I'm opening up my discussion and evaluations two other players because it's obvious that we are not going to get a wagon formed on truth. But I really don't like your dismissal until tomorrow. I'll come back to that in a little bit and if truth ever what's scum this conversation will be important.

I'm on my way to work and I work in a breakfast and lunch restaurant. Father's Day is generally the busiest day of the year or close second to Mother's Day. Probably won't be back on until late this evening.

[Glitch]

I saw your vote but didn't realize you jumped ship on Norway. I wasn't tracking whether your votes followed Norway's, I just assumed they all were. I was focusing on breaking down and analyzing your play so far and this post I actually did miss:

@Popopo, can you tell me your actual reads now? Our contract is rescinded.

678 is shit though because there is no explanation as to why you stopped and it looks like "omg the town might lynch me if I don't stop following Norway now," but there was literally nothing added or explanation given, it was like a desperate attempt to just dodge and deflect. And if you're scum you've been planning your easy slide out of sheeping Norway to vote a nice easy one on Cat Scratch as you've planted shallow reasoning for Cat to be on your scum list since 536. Your whole argument is that CSF has more town reads and less scum reads but it's important to have solid town reads in a game too, not just SRs. Regarding my vote, I'm not opposed to your wagon. We have plenty of time to see you actually play your own thoughts out now that you've abandoned this vote slave complex.

[Glitch]

^This post is @801

[Glitch]

Spoiler: hit play then read along

Well you can tell by the way I use my vote
I’m a townie boy, no time to stop!

Hunting scum through the days and nights,
try to vote them out,
it's why I was born!

No we can’t stop
Hunting them
Gonna start a bandwagon

Then we’ll try
To understand
The’ffect of all the votes on them

WHETHER YOU ARE SCUMMY OR WHETHER YOU ARE TOWNIE WE’RE STAYIN ALIVE
STAYIN ALIVE

FEEL THE SCUMMIES SHAKIN’ AND EVERYBODY QUAKIN’ AND WE’RE STAYIN ALIVE
STAYIN ALIVE

AH AH AH AH
STAYIN ALIVE
STAYIN ALIVE

AH AH AH AH
STAYING ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE WOOOOAHOAH

Well now I read votes and I read lies,
And if I can’t read either, I guess it’s NAI

Got the scum team stringing’ up my noose,
But then I’m saved by doc, I just can’t lose.

It’s alright,
It’s okay,
I’ll live to see another day

We won’t stop
Until they die
Town 4 lyfe until we die

WHETHER YOU A TOWNIE OR WHETHER YOU A MAFIA WE’RE STAYIN ALIVE
STAYIN ALIVE

FEEL THE SCUMMIES SHAKIN’ AND EVERYBODY QUAKIN’ AND WE’RE STAYIN ALIVE
STAYIN ALIVE

AH AH AH AH
STAYIN ALIVE
STAYIN ALIVE

AH AH AH AH
STAYING ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE

Spoiler:

me and my sister play mafia in person all the time and we jammed it up with this years ago and I thought y'all'd get a kick

[Glitch]

That's a cool quote wall but it's a misrep of what I said in 812

And if you're scum you've been

planning your easy slide out of sheeping Norway to vote a nice easy one on Cat Scratch as you've planted shallow reasoning for Cat to be on your scum list

since 536.

popo knew his time was coming to abandon ship with the vote slave drama and if he's town he's genuinely been reading CSF scummy for a long time and therefore voted when he got off the vote slave ship,

or

he's scum and he's been planning carefully how to get off this vote slave ship since 536.

lean scum so my vote stays on him until I go back and re-read through some past stuff particularly on GL that I've been wanting to do for a while, and hopefully I'll be able to get in a full read in of the whole thread tonight.

[Glitch]

Glitch's content has been objectively bad not really offering any new insights, and generally just jumping on the next popular wagon.

A good wagon is great, it gets results. You don't have to like that I jumped on the popo wagon despite explaining a solid case why. And it's understandable if the fact that I voted po pisses you off because it doesn't help you read me and my slot more. But it does help us read po and his slot more which is important too. We have time right now and I'm not so much concerned with getting you to hardcore TR me based on my vote record (or I wouldn't have jumped on popo and I definitely would never have gone after Truth), but more with getting reactions, breakdowns, thoughts, and high pressure situations laid out across the board.

I pushed Truth so much that he literally refused to answer any more of my questions. Reaction. Content to eval. I haven’t had time to do an ISO of popo in the past day or two but I am confident enough in his scum vibes that putting him at 4 votes was a good call, and once I finish reading through some of this game again I’ll be able to focus on more than just popo and Truth when I can get some sturdier reads. I’ll have more thoughts tomorrow. Still reading previous pages right now and trying to get through some of these 1v1s in the thread.

[Glitch]

Mavsfan, i suggest you join a substantial wagon such as NDMath. A lynch on me isn’t going to happen.

I agree. I’ve said as much in 884. I don’t want to vote NDMath just quite yet.

VOTE: NDMath

Alright Norwegian, I’m down to switch to NDMath. GuiltyLion’s 877 specifically point #5 I think is pretty townie. I think NFMath’s push there is in bad faith and I’m not a fan personally of 910 with the vote coming of GuiltyLion coming in 909. This seems like an extremely forced SR and vote.

So in 884 you set yourself up to change your vote but in 926 you're still not ready to. Then you post 4 hours later you vote ND. What changed in the 4 hours? At the time you wrote 926, had you not read GL's 877 that you used to sheep onto ND? If you had read it, what was the progression there to make you change your mind and become ready to vote?

[Glitch]

Also once you did read 877, whether it was before or after you wrote 926, why did point 5 seem townie? Why is breaking down your reads on different lines by how intensively you read them… scummy? We have seen that GL can eagerly jump on anyone who accuses him. In that light, why does GL's dislike of the fact that he was on the bottom tier of NDmath’s realist in 722 and pushing NDmath on that point, indicative that therefore NDmath is scummy?

[Glitch]

No. His defense has literally just been "I don't understand what y'all are saying," and "I'm self conscious, don't read me hard." And GL basically nails him with his own meta in 878 with quotes. Are you trying to pull my vote onto your wagon like you did with mavs?

[Glitch]

Looker is always weird.

Can you elaborate?

[Glitch]

No. His defense has literally just been "I don't understand what y'all are saying," and "I'm self conscious, don't read me hard." And GL basically nails him with his own meta in 878 with quotes. Are you trying to pull my vote onto your wagon like you did with mavs?

The way ND comes across... the way he has this kind of self assurance leads me to think he's Town.

I guess I'm just not seeing that. Are there specific confident points he makes that you're referring to and can point me to? I'm genuinely considering moving my vote there (knowing full well that will further your SR on me), but I'm seeing stuff like this:

1. I am a very self-conscious player. So yes I care how people perceive my entry.

6. I'm not comprehending this paragraph.

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

I need to first get a grasp on the game.

[Glitch]

I have cases to build and points to make but I gotta go for now. Late fathers day dinner. Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar. I want to ISO osuka and Nauci for a possible scum partnership because I think that conversation died too early. But for now, I'll help this wagon out until I can get back and make some other points. Unless we have more to go off of with NDmath that makes me want to keep it parked there. We'll see as it unfolds. bbl VOTE: ndmath

Quick I already know I just stirred your pot, lol. But my vote sits where it's most useful until I can get back and read up on my other scum leans as well.

[Glitch]

Starting my catch up momentarily.

Whoever is around right now: I was considering making a drinking game of every time someone posted something completely insane. Quick question - if I do this, will I die?

Truth would be charged with your murder

Welcome aboard

[Glitch]

Osuka did you have a scum lean on Nauci in 876? If so, what happened to that?

[Glitch]

Fyi I just finished a scum game, mini theme 2145.
By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

So then why are you playing this game the same way you played your scum game if you're not scum in this game? This post is either town, or caught scum. The only slot that wouldn't post this is lurking or undetected scum.

[Glitch]

I actually like CSF vs NDMath for today, so if anyone wants to help me make CSF a top-two wagon that'd be swell!

Sheep me!

I would prefer this over NDmath. I am not opposed to a lynch on NDmath but Cat Scratch would be a better choice in this event. I've been planning to come in here and make a case against Cat Scratch but haven't gotten around to it. I'll make my case here and join you on the wagon.

Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar.

Why am I on your scum radar?

There was literally zero progression from scumreading popo to scumreading me.

I still have a scum lean on po but when the push against him from the group seemed to dissipate and the desire to lynch disappeared from the town, it was time to move my vote to somewhere it can be used elsewhere to do more. I also have been working through a re-read of the game the last few days and that's where my updated SRs came from. I'm a big fan of wagons and think it's lazy playing to target people because they jump on a wagon. If you jump on a wagon without giving good and solid reasons or just paraphrasing what someone else said then sure, that's fine to make you raise an eyebrow. But pressure gives results and I like to push and build wagons. And I'll give you my honest thoughts in the process. If you scum read me for it, that's fine, that just gives more data for us to eval when you push me for pushing someone else.

My case against you goes further than Blair's though. My main problem with your play is your dramatic shift in playstyle after pressure hits you.

• Page 6 - Enter Cat Scratch, short winded and little contribution. Whatever, it's early.
  
• Page 9 - Posts are all literally useless
  
• Page 11 - 274 useless
  
• Page 12 - Just lazy and useless, TvT reads osuka vs LQ
  
• Page 16 - Once again, no meat to you posts, just shallow and useless
  
• Page 20 - TR me but literally no reasons
  
• Page 21 - Your lack of substantive contribution 21 pages in is astounding
  
• Page 22 - 537 is lazy, 549 is so scummy. Just a straight up dodge and push back on popo for his vote on you
  
• Page 23 - popo announces you as his top SR and calls you on your trash ISO as listed above, then a noticeable change in playstyle begins. Uptick in posting and content begins as seen in the rest of 23, which is partially because you're discussing this with popo and answering reads on you, but this is maintained throughout the rest of the game.
  
• Page 25 - You suddenly have stopped spamming shallow questions and coasting content as you did up to p23 and then jump to Nauci. Scummy. Play lazy all game, pressure is on you, flip over to Nauci with mediocre reasoning at best (609)
  
• Page 29 - You defend your Nauci push with a weak ass argument, no quotes, no supports, just saying she doesn't think hard enough but you'd like to see where she ends up (scum wishy washiness, leaving yourself an easy out or an easy way to stay on her)

TL;DR version:
23 pages of lazy and non-contributive posts until you're called out, at which point you ramp up your post volume and make a weak shift from voting the guy who is SR'ing you to a weak argument for Nauci.

Did you ramp up your posts because you realized that you couldn't fly under the radar as silent anymore once popo called you on it? Your change to Nauci feels like crap just trying to get po to not be so laser focused in on you, so you jump to Nauci when you don't even have that solid of an argument there.

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

I'd be okay with NDmath but honestly CSF is much scummier when you look back over the progression of the game.

[Glitch]

Actually Blair, unless you plan to case CSF hard and get a lot of people on your side, i'd much prefer it if you joined the NDMath wagon since it's got more votes and game needs a lynch right now. I sense apathy with the lack of posting lately.

this is an odd post from a slot that is otherwise fairly towny

Why is this scummy now but these posts weren't?

I think you’re missing the point. NOBODY townreads NDMath. So why are we just pretending like that slot isn’t an issue? He needs votes.

Mavsfan, i suggest you join a substantial wagon such as NDMath. A lynch on me isn’t going to happen.

*drink*

i'm only two beers deep and honestly i can tell you it is not enough for this shit

Your push on Truth is ass.
Vote NDMath.

[Glitch]

Why does lazy = Scum tho?

If your goal is to fly under the radar and not draw attention, hoping to just wait the day out until others can devour each other, then vague contribution with little commitment and very low content that doesn't help us to get anywhere helps accomplish that goal. Once he was called on that, everything changed. Looks like scum trying to lie low and then when caught is like "oh shit let me immediately unvote the person who is SR'ing me and move my vote to someone who I don't even have a good case for."

[Glitch]

Why does lazy = Scum tho?

If your goal is to fly under the radar and not draw attention, hoping to just wait the day out until others can devour each other, then vague contribution with little commitment and very low content that doesn't help us to get anywhere helps accomplish that goal. Once he was called on that, everything changed. Looks like scum trying to lie low and then when caught is like "oh shit let me immediately unvote the person who is SR'ing me and move my vote to someone who I don't even have a good case for."

Town can and does do that as well. So it's a moot point really.

I'm open to being wrong about these things as any games I play online I tend to be pointed out as the noob who doesn't understand the game, and oftentimes get SR'd for that. But it just doesn't make sense to me. Why would you not contribute and be wishy-washy, vote with a lame argument, and run from your SR when they start to SR you if your wincon is to find scum?

[Glitch]

My reasoning is not solely based on that though. I think you're misunderstanding my reasoning. The lack of quality content and original thinking is not my primary reason for SR'ing Cat. It is an element that plays a part, but the main suspicion comes in with literally backing off her main SR when he starts to push her and jumping onto Nauci with a weak-ass argument she isn't even fully convinced of herself. She sets herself up to stick with Nauci for a while if needed, or to jump ship easily too. There's no commitment and no resolve.

My case on Nauci is that she seems to comment on things that aren't game related when there's content to analyze.

I would like to see where she lands once she gets more time to dedicate to this game.

Right there. How is this not scummy AF?

[Glitch]

So a total change of playstyle when pushed, +unvoting your main SR when that person pushes you, +a vote for someone you have a weak ass argument on, +703... is all NAI?

[Glitch]

Today was a hectic day irl and I'm struggling to keep up with so much to read but I'll be able to get fully caught up and post tomorrow afternoon/evening.

[Glitch]

I am trying hard to follow and understand the push against osuka, for real, but it's just not clicking with me. I've had him null for so long and still going through his iso there's so many things that pull me both directions I just have such a null read on him. His lack of voting is sketch at best, and yet these posts are spot on:

The only noteworthy read of Osuka right now is CSF!Scum. And he's basically done nothing to convince us of it other than say "he be playing scummy". And saying scum is on his wagon. (no indication of who though)

i honestly don't know for sure who exactly is scum on the wagon, but i can tell you for a fact that it either started with scum motivation, or was put into overdrive by scum. As previously pointed out by someone other than me, wagons rarely pick up this quickly and sustain themselves for this long without some scum motivation

Should we hammer osuka now? I would like to get to the next day.

Reminder for doctors to protect me please!

do you see this shit? this is a scumpost

there is a wagon most people are happy with on L-1 and there are days until deadline AND there is a very active discussion happening around said wagon. If this is not a very deliberate attempt at ending discussion early, i don't know what is

I don't think there's enough valid content from osuka to make a definite judgement that he is scum, while there is even more reason now to suspect Cat Scratch. Can we break down CSF's progression on osuka?

Spoiler: Cat Scratch Fever on osuka

lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

I'm townreading Norway and I think osuka is townish. Still think Quick is prob town but he seems to have trouble getting his point across

VOTE: guiltylion

I think Quick and Osuka are TvT right now, and this back and forth is rapidly growing tiring to follow. Why don't we all hug it out and vote GuiltyLion or something

Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Holy shit

So here there is a push for more votes on guilty. He's never called guilty even scummy tho? But he's voted for him and called for others to vote him.

Uh yeah, I saw a shitshow of what I thought was TvT and did not want Osuka and Quick to continue arguing back and forth with each other and instead combine our votes to form a pressure wagon on someone who was conspicuously missing.

Then he votes for me, with no explanation of either his original guilty read or his new vote on me. He provided a reason for the vote on me when I pressed him.

If you want an explanation, you can just ask instead of making assumptions. Is this a newbie game where we scumread people for not explaining things?

I thought Guilty's meta defense of himself was convincing enough. His posting rate is higher as town than scum, and his contributions here pushed me to think he's town.

As of page 35, I don't scumread Nauci anymore

holy shit haha

and

I

thought i was late to this game

?

I was effectively inactive from this game for the last few days and was catching up

this is a completely meaningless post

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

UNVOTE:

I would like time to think if scum!osuka would go all-in on Truth here before he claims

and also there's like 3 people who haven't said anything about the osuka wagon lately

Let's break each quote down.

• 221 - Early game towered on osuka
  
• 276 - Reads the Quick v Osuka fight as TvT
  
• 280 - osuka is Towny independent of the Quick v Osuka fight,
  AND
  is Towny because he’s TvT,
  AND
  on top of that he is gut reading osuka as town
  
• 562 - Reaffirms TvT read on osuka/Quick
  
• Absolutely nothing
  from CSF regarding osuka for the next 500+ posts
  
• 1107 - osuka throws a little shade in Cat’s direction
  
• 1118 - osuka throws more shade at Cat
  
• 1147 -
  Cat Scratch out of the blue votes for osuka
  openly sheeping Nauci and for not using his vote.
  
• 1425 - Unvotes when the wagon gets serious and there’s an actual chance of lynching osuka.

This reads as shit. Clear TR on osuka while it's easy up to halfway through the game, then drop off and say nothing about him. Let a long time pass and then as soon as osuka pushes even a little bit on you, you vote against him for bs reasons. That's some scummy shit setting yourself up to be able to say, "Well I had good reasons, Nauci just said them already," but that's just an easy excuse not to make your own case or bring original content or reasoning to the table. Why we would lynch osuka who is confusing AF as opposed to CSF who is clearly scum doesn't make sense to me.

Additionally, I think osuka makes a strong, pro-town point in the second quote at the top (1411). Earlier in the thread there was a discussion on why it's pro-town

not

to use all of our time, and I think I read a counter argument that it is pro-town to use the time if we have it. Muddying up the waters with tons of posts that make it hard for us to go back and read is not a solid argument, though, for ending a day early. The way I see it you have two options that determine whether or not ending the day early is pro-town or not.

First, if the discussion is dragging out, dying, and stalled... then yes, it is pro-town to end the day and keep things moving. If town is not in the drivers seat and no one is driving at all it gives scum an opportunity to take the reigns and control the conversation, spam up the thread, and wait it out until the end of the day when everyone panic-votes themselves into a mislynch. Second scenario, discussion is alive and active with strong content being produced and active gameplay dominated every RL day. This creates an difficult environment for the scum to survive, because they're forced to participate in the open or be suspected for trying to coast under the radar. It gives us more opportunity to evaluate our options and avoid a mislynch. For example, hypothetically I'm thinking if so many are on board with an osuka lynch (one that isn't totally solid), then it is

pro-mafia

to try and end the day early rather than giving everyone time to sort through this case and giving osuka a chance to explain. It is pro-town to take more time to let the scum hang their own noose, like I have clearly set out above with Cat Scratch's cheap shift onto osuka that we would not have had a chance to dive into had we ended the day early.

So it's not a hard-and-fast rule that ending the day early is pro-town. It is pro-town to let the day go on until we are confident in a scum lynch, and if that means it takes a long time, that's fine. If we get to that point sooner rather than later and there's not much more to talk about, then end the day early and get to business. But the latter is not the case in our game. If it creates more content for us to sift through and makes our job harder because we have to do more reading, then man up and just deal with it. You have more stuff to evaluate. That's a good thing. Maybe this is just a longer game that takes more time than a normal one. Don't be lazy, work hard to find the right lynch.

Vote stays on CSF and I'd encourage y'all to move your votes too.

[Glitch]

Do you think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you here?

You have some gall to ask this question when your entire game has been lackluster and full of fluff. Do

you

think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you? What are you top pro-town moves in this game? Sheeping onto wagons with no thoughts of your own?

[Glitch]

@Norway

- In addition to the case I made that CSF's vote on osuka is bullshit with terrible reasoning, why do you -- when you are wishy-washy on your read of CSF and don't fully trust that CSF has the town's best interest at heart -- immediately move your vote to osuka like this? You follows Cat's vote which was cast because Nauci made a

"~good argument~"

against osuka and yet all along you've read Nauci as scum. If you don't think CSF has the town's best interest in mind, and if you're not sure if CSF has the town's best interest in mind, why would you follow both of them onto voting osuka whose iso reads out confusing and null AF? Genuine question and open to having had missed a discussion on this or being wrong here but this didn't sit well with me. You've been my top TR this whole game and I like your genuine hunt, but this confused me.

I don't explicitly townread CSF as strongly as my other townreads.

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

You convinced me.
VOTE: Osuka

[Glitch]

Do you think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you here?

You have some gall to ask this question when your entire game has been lackluster and full of fluff. Do

you

think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you? What are you top pro-town moves in this game? Sheeping onto wagons with no thoughts of your own?

If osuka thinks he's played his usual towngame, then I can see why he thinks people voting for him are stupid (or delusional, to use his exact words).

If osuka acknowledges that he hasn't played to his usual level as town, then I don't know why he's calling the people voting for him stupid. He's admitted that he's being lazier than usual this game, so I thought it was worth asking him whether he thought the metareads on him had any merit. His answer wasn't that useful though.

My question literally had nothing to do with how I think I'm playing. I don't think I've called people voting for me stupid

I think I am well within my town range and easily out of my scum range, but this playerlist doesn't have that much experience with me.

1472 isn't about osuka, it's about you. If you misread it,

I am turning your own questions back around on you.

I know your question had nothing to do with how you think you're playing, it had to do with how you think osuka is playing. But it's hypocritical for you, a fluffposter, to criticize osuka for not having done enough to be read as town, when you literally haven't done anywhere near enough to be read as town.

So again. What are you top pro-town moves in this game, and while we are at it, why should we trust your own self-meta argument? Did I miss where someone else objectively confirmed that your past town gameplay lines up with your current play this game? (I only remember Blair saying that your meta makes you scum. ) Right now you don't have enough townie points to just say, "I'm playing like I always do when I'm town," and for me or anyone else to just trust you.

[Glitch]

I think I'm town because:
- I try to understand people's thought processes. If I were scum, why would I bother engaging osuka in this scenario? osuka was at L-1 and multiple people had stated they were ready to end the day.
--- do you think I'm engaging people in good faith?

- I actually have real-time interactions instead of just posting in thread and ducking out
--- My stances are clear, and if you need them explained, I can explain them to you without having to think for a long time like I do as scum

- I take the time to look at people's past games like GL, popo and NDMath

- I don't care how I look, e.g. by putting popo to L-2.

I disagree that I'm a fluffposter. Maybe this was true early game or even mid game, but by now, I think I've posted enough readable content.

My meta is available for everyone to see. I even alt slipped

1. Engaging osuka:

If you were town, you'd do it because you were scum hunting. If you were scum, you'd engage osuka because scum's job is to be undetected and when osuka flips town you'll be able to point back to this and say, "Look how town I was, I was really trying to figure out if he was scum and I was just wrong." There's a motivation both ways so your first point is NAI.

2. Good faith:

I appreciate your level head and how you have been respectful, calm, and chill this entire game treating people fairly. Your lack of enthusiasm and emotion in your pushes aren't a towntell though.

3. Real time interactions instead of post and run:

fair point, I'll give you this one.

4. Clear stances you can clarify:

"Details available upon request" is still hella scummy to me. It's an easy way to coast through the game as scum only having to take a stand when asked to, rather than being willing to push the envelope like a true townie would.

5. You read meta:

cool story, not all of us have that much time and your life giving you the time to do that is NAI

6. You don't care how bad you look:

this is an easy argument to make as scum when you've messed up and done something stupid, and then you're like, "Oh look at me, I don't care how bad I look, I'm a townie!" LAMIST and NAI

So really the only valid point I'm taking away from this is #3. Depending on the player, I would read that as NAI as well because scum could make the same argument that they're engaging in real time interactions and that makes them look towny. Sure they're under more pressure but good scum should be able to do that. The reason I'm giving you some leeway is that your playstyle doesn't seem to fit with scum playing real time and being under all that pressure unless you're good at conning people, which you could be but it would be a little bit of a stretch in my mind.

I'm still willing to make that stretch because of the rest of the points I've made in my case against you though. I don't read anyone as scummy as I do you even when I take your point #3 into consideration. It's a stretch I'm willing to make and risk because literally everything else points to you as scum.

[Glitch]

The timing of osuka and Glitch's posts on giving reasons for why Cat Scratch Fever is mafia looks really suspicious to me. Is this something they could've prepared in their secret chat and then decided to post and push together? It makes it more likely people will follow and maybe they can save osuka by lynching Cat Scratch Fever instead.

I wrote my post before reading osuka's post. When I submitted my post it alerted me that osuka had posted his mirror and I skimmed it before posted mine and kind of winced since I knew this would come up, but I can't help that we both wrote down the same argument at the same time. If you choose not to believe me I can understand but that would be a really stupid move as scum to both make those posts, and I'd like to think I would play a lot smarter as scum than that. If I were scum I would have scrapped my whole post after reading that osuka's had been posted to not bring myself under further scrutiny.

[Glitch]

lmao
If scum was the cop's vote slave that'll be rich. I'm trusting Norway as one of my stronger TRs.

VOTE: popo
If he flips town we kill the Norwegian.
If he flips scum we should zoom in on Blair who has said nothing useful about popo literally at all, and Nauci because she has only defended him:

I am currently somewhat lost in this game because I do think popopopopo's past few pages are towny

I did a little bit of reading other players' ISOs trying to figure out where I would want to push next but haven't figured that out yet and de prioritized this game for one that is closer to deadline. I wanted to read previous games from GL, NBEE, and popopopopo before I try to assess it further since so much of the accusations being thrown around were meta-based, but haven't gotten to that yet because of aforementioned priority queue

Also endometriosis is murdering me today so I'm heading to bed early soon and will be back tomorrow

Spoiler: Wall of popo Defense by Nauci

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

This post claiming issues with my vote is leaving out the VITAL fact that I am norwe's vote slave. In doing that, he completely misrepresented my supposed reasoning for switching votes. The push feels fake and based off a misrep. Norwe was cranking the pressure up pretty hard my man guilty needed a release.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

i mean who tf knows with this guy. He wants to nolynch, then he wants to quick lynch. Idk his alignment but certified VI

I agree with everything here.

VOTE: popopo

This was quick vote on me i fucked up the tags
I've only played with quikc town. in those games he was prone to crackpot theories, unorthodox pushes like he was going at truth with. BUT This vote is very weak especially after all his other interactions he hops on me with GL because of GLs bad and misrepping post.

VOTE: popo

Lol ill be phone posting all weekend but look at this dudes iso its all townreads and then a naked hop on me. Could be the worst vote on my wagon. This guy is straight cruising and found an easy spot to park his vote but I ain't mislynch bait like that bro.

LicketyQuickety - town lean his vote on me was bad but quick likes an illogical bad push as much as anyone so it doesnt surprise me he voted me. his incessant pushing on truth early feels town motivated coming from this particular player.
NorwegianboyEE - town lean i explained already
Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree
osuka - null town feels like a saudade type player where he just calls people retards and argues. hard to read, but the argument with truth seemed genuine enough
Truth - any read i have is irrelevant, mechanics will sort. im more inclined to believe the claim than not.
Glitch - null seems like a noob. i find this type of player hard to sort. at least looks like hes trying.
Nauci - null his early posts pinged me as forced, he has been posting more thoughtfully since.
Candy Shop - null dont really have an impression of this slot, this is the NL guy right? ok i checked his ISO. idk
ndmath - null no impression of this slot
mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look
GuiltyLion - scum lean i explained
Cat Scratch Fever - scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree

Are you talking about this?

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever / rozyrozNDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Looker didn't even give reads - he just said which slots were good info lynches?

yes thats what I was talking about.

mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look

Why is this weird? He said he was in the middle of catching up earlier.

the timing is suspicious. It could also be a coincidence i grant u.

Cat Scratch Fever - scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

Which townreads do you disagree with?

Its less about me disagreeing with them that it is the way you hand them out.

Cat scratch leans town on quick and nauci, then he semi- walks back the nauci read after a light prod by norwe (203). Then he town reads norwe and osuka, and hops on guilty for no real reason

lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

I'm townreading Norway and I think osuka is townish. Still think Quick is prob town but he seems to have trouble getting his point across

VOTE: guiltylion

Notice he doesnt call guilty scum here. Doesn't really provide a reason for his vote at all.

In fact cat scratch never calls GL scum, except he does post this

I think Quick and Osuka are TvT right now, and this back and forth is rapidly growing tiring to follow. Why don't we all hug it out and vote GuiltyLion or something

So here there is a push for more votes on guilty. He's never called guilty even scummy tho? But he's voted for him and called for others to vote him. Then he votes for me, with no explanation of either his original guilty read or his new vote on me. He provided a reason for the vote on me when I pressed him.

I'd vote cat but guilty is likely his partner so ill stick with nii chan for now

BTW cats vote on me was sheeping GLs attack on me after already voting for GL and calling for others to vote there. A bizarre turnaround.

So GL OMGUSd me and started a counter wagon to deflect attention and his partner cat hopped on innocuously a couple votes in?
Sometimes its just that easy

vote: cat scratch

GL last couple pages was ok

after sleeping on it and the last back and forth im not as confident on the GL/cat scratch scumteam. Scratch is scummy independently though, his early play was intentionally inoffensive and his hop on my wagon was very bad.

I still think lions push one me is bad, but his aw shucks demeanor and trying to see things from norwes POV make me feel less strongly about it. I'd like more votes on cat his iso pre voting me is very poor as I've laid out.

Considering how all of these posts from popopopopo talk about why he scumreads CSF, I don't think I buy that you genuinely think it was exclusively because he thought that voteslaving would get him lynched that he voted elsewhere, Glitch.

popo and Truth cannot be town together. Memory serves that Truth has been pushing popo almost the entire game and unless Truth is conning all of us with a newb-front (which I have recently begun considering as recent posts have revealed a decent knowledge of the game), he wouldn't do that as newbish as he has acted this game, if they were both scum together. So if popo flips scum then Truth has got to be town. All I know until a flip is Truth was certain he would be the focus of all the action last night, but sure enough, he wasn't. That's because the scum either don't feel threatened by him or because he is scum. The former is much more likely to be the case.

[Glitch]

Because I am town, Blair! Please don't shoot me if you're the vigilante. Does my buddy really need to prove this to be the case?

If you truly are a mason you would not out your buddy for the scum to see who that buddy is, giving them an additional target, unless you needed to do it to avoid being lynched, and right now you aren't being threatened to be lynched. You are being threatened to be shot by popo, the

supposed

vigilante.

But you believe popo is scum. If you actually believe this then why are you worried that popo will shoot you at night as the vig? If po is either vig or scum, he could have killed you last night and didn't. If you were truly were a mason, and truly believed popo is scum, you would not even think of outing your buddy when the town wants vig!popo to shoot at you... because you don't believe popo is the vig.

So which is it? Do you believe popo is scum, which you have believed for a very, very long time? Or did his vig claim change your read on him?

[Glitch]

Spoiler: Truth's thoughts on popopopopopopopopopopo

popo feels like mafia as well.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

I have no clues or leads, but I have bad feelings from popopopopopopopopo because he feels like he doesn't care. I think mafia have less to care about, because they're okay with anyone that's town being lynched.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

Cat Scratch Fever (3): popopopopopopo, Blair, Glitch ... Town!
osuka (3): GuiltyLion, Cat Scratch Fever, NorwegianboyEE .... Mafia!
NDMath (2): Nauci, mavsfan41 ... Town
GuiltyLion (2): Looker, NDMath ... Town!

popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!

Glitch (1): LicketyQuickety ... Unsure

VOTE: osuka

Maybe a valid situation for a normal lynch could be done by forming multiple bandwagons and seeing how people will vote between them. I am personally happy with my vote on po (shortening the name now).

I think Tiger cat is town and po is mafia actually.

@Truth how has your read on Osuka evolved since you moved your vote off of him?

I still don't like him. My suspects are po, osuka, and maybe Glitch. Do you want me to vote for osuka again?

Hi, Blair! Help me vote and put pressure on po while you find someone else you want to vote.

It would make sense to me if there was 2 mafia from po going down, and 1 in the top 6.

So osuka and po and Looker for example. I think mafia usually say less and don't put themselves in the limelight but usually they need a leader. If I'm wrong, it could instead be Nauci and Glitch and mavsfan for example.

I still think we should lynch osuka.

However, I realised earlier that part of my reason for wanting to believe he's mafia may be because I'd be a little upset he was town. I think he's unnecessarily harsh most of the time.

LicketyQuickety, I am not mafia!

I was even voting for po for a long time earlier and you also think he's mafia.

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

I think the right move here is for us to collectively decide who Popo should shoot tonight. This effectively gives us two lynches today -

unless he's lying, in which case the real vigilante will shoot him.

If

popo is getting vigged

, then I think we should lynch blair.

Slip?

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Could you explain what you mean by this please? Is it because he said po instead of Truth there?

VOTE: No one

If Truth really were the mason, which I really think he isn't, and if he truly believed popo was scum

like he has literally the entire game including 100% of Day 1 and even the start of Day 2

, he would not be worried that popo would shoot him in N2 as the vig because he believes popo isn't the vig, he's scum. The

only

way for this to make sense is if Truth believes popo is actually the vig, and yet he just said he believes he's most likely scum. Truth also knows that the popo slot will resolve itself tonight. Kind of like how we've been saying that the Truth slot will resolve itself.

Well... I'm pretty sure it resolved itself. Truth is shit scum and if someone comes out to say they're masons with Truth then we know who the scum team is together. I really don't think I'm wrong on this one but if I am, then at very minimum it was a productive PL, and popo is actually the scum who the vig will take care of tonight. Truth and popo can't be scum together but they're both scummy AF. popo will die if he is scum tonight. Lynch Truth and the vig can NK popo if we're wrong, and we get 1 scum for sure. And if I'm right and Truth is scum as I strongly suspect... then maybe popo is telling the truth and will shoot someone that isn't himself and is alive the next day as proof of his claim.

Additionally, please reference:

Official Vote Count 1.HAMMER

osuka

(7): GuiltyLion, NorwegianboyEE,

Truth

, Nauci, popopopopopopo, Cat Scratch Fever, LicketyQuickety

*HAMMER*

[/area]

Osuka relentlessly fought to lynch Truth without stopping D1. Truth's response to that was interesting. I think Truth SR'd osuka for because Truth is scum and plays poorly, so when someone pushes against him, he SR's them for bullshit reasons.

Truth's reason to SR osuka was that osuka SR'd someone but didn't vote for that person.

See below.

Spoiler: Truth's thoughts on osuka

I can already see that osuka is approving the push and shading me. Do you think this could be him testing the room to see if there's support?

i'm starting to have serious doubts that you're mason

59 does not come from any town with an iq that has anywhere near 3 digits

I will ignore your insult and point out the obvious: You are shading me without advocating my lynch. You are testing the waters to see if others are open to pushing me, in which case you would join. That is what it looks like to me.

i'm starting to have serious doubts that you're mason

59 does not come from any town with an iq that has anywhere near 3 digits

I will ignore your insult and point out the obvious: You are shading me without advocating my lynch. You are testing the waters to see if others are open to pushing me, in which case you would join. That is what it looks like to me.

that's just not true at all. i'm calling your stupid plays out as what they are: stupid plays. I'm not advocating for anyone's lynch and if you legitimately believe that, youre delusional

That is exactly my point. You are calling me out and shading me while not advocating my lynch. This looks like a mafia play to me. If people agree with you and start voting me, I expect you will then be fine with my lynch, but right now, you are not pushing it because it may make you look like mafia if not enough people get behind it.

I am reading. I don't remember everything. I am suspicious of Osuka as well so I can help here.

VOTE: Osuka

Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Could they not be performing an act of WIFOM? Where they intentionally push each other with reasons that seem legitimate, but it's because they know people will think they are town for doing them.

osuka appeared like he outright disbelieved me and thought I was mafia but then didn't push me or vote me. I feel the only reason for this is because he is scared for being suspected for it and wanted to see if others would vote me first.

Who do you think I should look at instead?

@Truth how has your read on Osuka evolved since you moved your vote off of him?

I still don't like him. My suspects are po, osuka, and maybe Glitch. Do you want me to vote for osuka again?

osuka likes to post a lot of times close to each other. Is doing this instead of putting thoughts into one part a mafia tactic? It makes it look like he has a bigger presence or is more involved than he actually is. It gave me that impression too until I realised that it can be manipulated

Do people look at number of posts to see if someone is likely to be town or mafia?

how the fuck is mafia supposed to know you're mason? mafia has no setup knowledge other than their own roles

you seem to gravely misunderstand some very core concepts of this game

If he is in fact a mason, it's pretty natural to assume that mafia would know he's town and therefore likely not lying about being a

mason

of all things

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

Do you think osuka could be making sure I'm actually a mason and not lying in that post? Like he's mafia and wants to kill me if I'm a mason but wants to keep questioning me just to make sure. I think this another reason to think he is mafia.

Cat Scratch Fever (3): popopopopopopo, Blair, Glitch ... Town!
osuka (3): GuiltyLion, Cat Scratch Fever, NorwegianboyEE .... Mafia!
NDMath (2): Nauci, mavsfan41 ... Town
GuiltyLion (2): Looker, NDMath ... Town!
popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!
Glitch (1): LicketyQuickety ... Unsure

VOTE: osuka

It would make sense to me if there was 2 mafia from po going down, and 1 in the top 6.

So osuka and po and Looker for example. I think mafia usually say less and don't put themselves in the limelight but usually they need a leader. If I'm wrong, it could instead be Nauci and Glitch and mavsfan for example.

In reply to osuka: But in that one post, you were specifically asking about my role again, and you did that earlier too.

I still think we should lynch osuka. However, I realised earlier that part of my reason for wanting to believe he's mafia may be because I'd be a little upset he was town. I think he's unnecessarily harsh most of the time.

LicketyQuickety, I am not mafia! I was even voting for po for a long time earlier and you also think he's mafia.

Because I am town, Blair! Please don't shoot me if you're the vigilante. Does my buddy really need to prove this to be the case?

Dunnstral's plan where we let the vigilante shoot po if he's lying seems like a good idea.

But who else should be lynch today instead? osuka and po were my main suspects.

And yet, here we are on D2 with Truth SR'ing popopo but not voting him. The same reason Truth wanted to lynch osuka. Let me pull out a few of these from above to just point that last part out because that's the real kicker:

You are shading me without advocating my lynch. You are testing the waters to see if others are open to pushing me, in which case you would join. That is what it looks like to me.

I think you are acting like mafia.

You are calling me out and shading me while not advocating my lynch. This looks like a mafia play to me. If people agree with you and start voting me, I expect you will then be fine with my lynch, but right now, you are not pushing it because it may make you look like mafia if not enough people get behind it.

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

VOTE: No one

If you're actually a mason you wouldn't even think of outing your partner unless you absolutely had to. But I think it's clear that if you have a partner it's probably scum. And if you out your partner and we lynch you thinking you're both scum and we're wrong, then at least you're PL'd and we'll confirm your mason buddy.

VOTE: Truth

Why did your super solid read on po change when he claimed vig? Do you believe him?

And if you do believe him then why would you want to no-lynch?

[Glitch]

Additional clarification needed on my last question: Is 1745 a vote for no lynch, or an unvote of your vote for popo?

[Glitch]

Scum knew they weren't on Blair's radar so they let her live to kill off more town. Blair isn't a logical target for scum until she starts to get on their trail.

That just means we need to dive deep into some back pages and make sure we nail it right because this next lynch can easily land us in some rough town/scum ratios.

Need to go back and re-read some previous content. I have friends over right now but will get on this later tonight.

[Glitch]

I went back and did some re-reading and some digging, and the best place I knew to start after my re-read of yesterday was to check out each player's relationship with popo. Let me case each player out:

Spoiler: Blair and Po

I'm a vt

I thought norwe was pretty town

Scum might have a framer or some shit

I dont really see scum norwe faking a guilty out of the blue

These are strange posts if you were Vig this whole time.

Vigilantes don't usually counter claim (unless they've used all their shots), they just shoot the fake claim the next night - so we may not find out today if Popo is telling the truth.

I think the right move here is for us to collectively decide who Popo should shoot tonight. This effectively gives us two lynches today - unless he's lying, in which case the real vigilante will shoot him.

Of course scum could just shoot the same person or no kill, but there's no real utility in them doing that just to lynch Popo when they could have just nightkilled him instead.

Also: Why use one of your two shots on Night 1?

I'm a vig i shoot

I mean, you pretty heavily implied you thought it was dumb for a vig to shoot night 1 when you entered the thread today complaining about it?

Have you ever rolled Vigilante before?

I don't think I really need to sell this any more, but in case there was any doubt - ask yourself, which of these two posts sounds more like the mindset of a town Vigilante being counterclaimed?

unless there could be 2 vig?

There is a 0% chance of two Vigilantes in this setup, especially when one of them claimed VT until a Gunsmith outed them and then switched to Vigilante and claimed responsibility for the exact same shot I took.

I'm 100% certain Popopo is scum. Popopo, on the other hand, is busy setting himself up for my eventual town flip.

I think this has gone on long enough. Every living player has weighed in now so we will have plenty to go off when the truth comes out (and a couple of people seem to have TMI, so that's a thing).

I am the Vigilante.

I shot CSF as a PoE shot because she was the runner-up wagon yesterday and several players indicated if osuka flipped town they would suspect her today.

Two players appear to have TMI:

Truth - Seems to know Popopo is not the Vigilante (yet isn't voting for him) and openly speculated that I, specifically, could be the Vigilante.

LicketyQuickety - Seemed to enter the day dead-set on arguing there was a Serial Killer in the setup. An argument he attempted to force even after being directly contradicted by the mod, and (strikingly) even after Popopo claimed 2-shot Vigilante. Why double down on the idea of an unlimited shot killing role after an uncountered 2-shot claim? Did LQ know the Vigilante wasn't really 2-shot? If so, how?

VOTE: Popopo

Welcome back, Looker. Popopo is lying scum, I'm the Vigilante, and Quick is pushing a counterwagon due to my... *checks scribbles on hand* personality?

Spoiler: Dunnstral/mavs and Po

VOTE: Popopopo

You were scum in the other game I played with you and the non-vote tag thingy osuka pointed out. (Was gonna vote you in non-vote tags but that seemed like it would be the type of thing that would be hilarious to me and no one else.)

GL has some solid posts I read as town, but that Popopo progression after going after Norwegian just feels off to me. Popopo’s sheeping of Norwegian is problematic as an easy cop out for votes with no motive, but I can’t help but think that makes him too easy of a mislynch target. To link Norwegian/Popopo I think it’s far too facile to link Norwegian/Popopo as a scum team.

@popopo: your 536 post. Your response to GL is bad. Please do better. In 430, you voice some frustration with Looker. Wouldn’t that have been a been a better place to vote? I see your shtik of sheep’ing Norwegian, but don’t you think there’s a scenario where that’s very problematic for town?

@Popopo: as for your read list. So I’m scummy for moving my RVS to a player I’m now reading as scum? That coincided with my catchup and not your post prodding me. Also, if you have Cat Scratch Fever as your top SR, you see how voting with Norwegian is problematic right? I hope you don’t blindly follow his votes for too much longer. Despite what Norwegian’s response was in 621, I FULLY support Looker’s 620 (not only the thing about your voting habits but also the thing about Truth too).

Note: 620 that mavs is supporting here is a statement that the "vote slave" nonsense can't go on forever.

Can someone give me the case against Popopo? I read Glitch’s 710 which is details a case for Popopo all in one place, so thanks for that. But reading why people have voted Popopo, i get the idea that it’s just a D1 policy lynch (I’m okay with a D1 PL) for sheep’ing Norwegian?

Let vig shoot at popopo if he's fake claiming. And if he's not shot we know he's vig

nah if popo is mafia and is faking being vig then the real vig is going to shoot him

I don't think we can in good faith lynch popo today without somebody else counterclaiming vig, which is not necessary if he's scum and won't happen if he's town

laid bare.

Blaire'd, if youw ill.

VOTE: Popopopopopopopopopopo

Spoiler: Glitch and Po

I think pressure on Truth, popopo, and looker right now would be much more productive than continuing a squabble with NB. I also think if we can look through NB's attitude, that he's got some solid content (150, 186, 340).

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

This post claiming issues with my vote is leaving out the VITAL fact that I am norwe's vote slave. In doing that, he completely misrepresented my supposed reasoning for switching votes. The push feels fake and based off a misrep. Norwe was cranking the pressure up pretty hard my man guilty needed a release.

Okay so now is the time to just stop with this whole vote slave bullshit. Start voting according to actual suspicions you have and not ones that are just spoon fed to you by your vote master. It is pro-town for us to get legitimate, un-tinted reads on you, not skewed and mixed up reads because we're trying to decipher between what's your genuine read on someone vs your vote master's read. Besides, if you're openly just casting votes to build up wagon numbers then the power of a wagon on someone is weakened. We have to maintain the pressure of a wagon and not sabotage one of our tools for getting scum to out themselves. Wagon people but don't defeat your own vote's power by publicizing, "I'm just following the leader with my vote to put people under more pressure." This is a variation of the exact conversation I had with Truth in my previous 2 posts.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

i mean who tf knows with this guy. He wants to nolynch, then he wants to quick lynch. Idk his alignment but certified VI

Can you actually make an effort rather than just being like "Omg Idk I just know you suck?" What would your reads be on him if he hadn't claimed mason? What are your thoughts on if he is the scum in a hood?

i owe norwe big, more than owe him im in debt to him. the reactions i am getting for this schtick also has been and will continue to be fruitful

When will you have to pick between loyalty to Norway or to this town and get off the fence? How long do you intend to continue this? We have a lot of discussion on your vote slave ordeal to discuss, now can you stop so we can get a different perspective to read you? [...]

Scum lean on popopo for everything at the top of this post
Scum read still on Truth for literally every post he's made [...]

tl;dr version: VOTE: popopopopo because I'm not down with a GL wagon until I go back and re-read, and popopo's defense has been shit basically just saying he owes Norway and he's doing it for reactions to talk about. Popopopopo can you stop being vague and irrational about when you'll stop voting with norway, and answer my questions above in response to your 555? It could very well be that you're scum trying to use this vote slave bullshit as a way to fly under everyone else's radar, and when it didn't work, the best way for you to push through a wagon on yourself is to stick to your guns and look like you've just been doing it for 1)loyalty to Norway, 2)scumhunting by getting reactions, or 3)shits and giggles all along. Pushing all this would be a great guise for scum except that you're twisted up in your own net and haven't been able to fly low.

And if that wasn't your plan, then your plan could have been to rile up all this nonsense and look so bold no one would think scum would do something so risky. Idk which way it goes, but each way I see at the moment looks messy unless you can just give us some original thoughts and original votes that aren't based on Norway and then we can get some un-tainted reads on you.

Glitch's content has been objectively bad not really offering any new insights, and generally just jumping on the next popular wagon.

A good wagon is great, it gets results. You don't have to like that I jumped on the popo wagon despite explaining a solid case why. And it's understandable if the fact that I voted po pisses you off because it doesn't help you read me and my slot more. But it does help us read po and his slot more which is important too. We have time right now and I'm not so much concerned with getting you to hardcore TR me based on my vote record (or I wouldn't have jumped on popo and I definitely would never have gone after Truth), but more with getting reactions, breakdowns, thoughts, and high pressure situations laid out across the board.

I pushed Truth so much that he literally refused to answer any more of my questions. Reaction. Content to eval. I haven’t had time to do an ISO of popo in the past day or two but I am confident enough in his scum vibes that putting him at 4 votes was a good call, and once I finish reading through some of this game again I’ll be able to focus on more than just popo and Truth when I can get some sturdier reads. I’ll have more thoughts tomorrow. Still reading previous pages right now and trying to get through some of these 1v1s in the thread.

I still have a scum lean on po but when the push against him from the group seemed to dissipate and the desire to lynch disappeared from the town, it was time to move my vote to somewhere it can be used elsewhere to do more. I also have been working through a re-read of the game the last few days and that's where my updated SRs came from. I'm a big fan of wagons and think it's lazy playing to target people because they jump on a wagon. If you jump on a wagon without giving good and solid reasons or just paraphrasing what someone else said then sure, that's fine to make you raise an eyebrow. But pressure gives results and I like to push and build wagons. And I'll give you my honest thoughts in the process. If you scum read me for it, that's fine, that just gives more data for us to eval when you push me for pushing someone else.

lmao
If scum was the cop's vote slave that'll be rich. I'm trusting Norway as one of my stronger TRs.

VOTE: popo
If he flips town we kill the Norwegian.
If he flips scum we should zoom in on Blair who has said nothing useful about popo literally at all, and Nauci because she has only defended him

Spoiler: Looker and Po

do you have any reads

I feel you're just saying that because it's an easy thing to say.

Looker needs to give some reads/any reads

I think it'd be easier if you just voted me instead of pretending to scumhunt.

here's my "taking a look at the whole game" reads for Norwegian:

Townies: CSF, Nauci, Lickety, Candy Shop
don't feel like voting today but maybe a scum: Looker, osuka
has not played the game yet: rozyroz
self-resolving: Truth
could see myself voting today: mavsfan, glitch
one of these two is scum: Norway, popopopopoppopopoopp

p-edit: What am I misdirecting away from? I replied directly to the latest two people that voted me

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever /

rozyroz

NDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Why is Nauci town again? I feel like she’s been taking safe stances

I feel like {Glitch | Candy Shop | Mavsfan | Cat Scratch Fever |

rozyroz

NDMath | Osuka} are the safe ones.

Do you really feel telegraphed sheeping is enough to prove you're town? If you were to flip town, would you want us to lynch GuiltyLion next?

when did i suggest it proves that im town? all i said was his vote left out the KEY fact that i am norwes vote slave atm, which make the dissonance suggested in his accusation obviously false.

My question is how long will this shtick go on? "Norway told me" isn't going to be a valid excuse.

@looker you seem to have stopped interesting with GL and have been suspecting other players since your vote. Has your read on him changed since then, or is he still your top scum read?

My lynch preferences reduced to percentages are:
22% Guilty Lion | 18% popopo | 17% Candy Shop or mavsfan41 | 13% LicketyQuick | 12% NDMath | 8% Glitch | 5% Nauci | 4% Norway | 1% Truth, Osuka, or Cat Scratch

im ok with an osuka or cat scratch lynch

How long has GuiltyLion been voteparking osuka? If osuka flips scum, how does that influence your read of GuiltyLion?

---

• Lynch preferences are: 22% GuiltyLion | 19% Blair or mavsfan41 | 14% popopo or osuka | 12% NDMath | 11% LicketyQuickety | 8% Glitch or NorwegianboyEE | 7% Cat Scratch Fever | 4% Truth | 3% Nauci
  • I'm okay with osuka hammer

I dont really see scum norwe faking a guilty out of the blue

Even as a bus to endgame?

I am the vig I shot cat scratch. I knew it was a non legit guilty because I am town, so I fake claimed vt because I knew its a fake guilty. I didnt consider gunsmith in that decision and that's me being dumb.

Why CSF over GuiltyLion/LicketyQuick?

I'm 2 shot

That's pretty convenient.

---

• We can't rule out a NorwegianboyEE bus; I don't want him to make it to endgame.
  
• Don't allow NorwegianboyEE to chain lynches unless he gets another guilty.
  
• My lynch preferences are 31% popopo | 21% Blair or
  mavsfan41
  Dunnstral | 19% LQ | 11% NDMath | 8% Nauci | 7% Norway | 3% Truth | >1% Glitch

VOTE: popopo

Lynch preferences are: 22% GuiltyLion | 19% Blair or mavsfan41 | 14% popopo or osuka | 12% NDMath | 11% LicketyQuickety | 8% Glitch or NorwegianboyEE | 7% Cat Scratch Fever | 4% Truth | 3% Nauci

Osuka's dead and this moves popopo up

[/quote]

Spoiler: Nauci and Po

Currently I'm struggling with the dynamic between him [Norway] and popopopopo

Like... Should I consider it suspicious that they just entered into a vote-slave pact on the spot without questioning each other for it or is this some typical NAI shenanigans? I'm entirely puzzled by it and also puzzled by the lack of commentary on it. In light of the stuff that pinged you about Norwegian, what do you think?

Do you think their vote pact is something 2 scum would do together?

I just found it odd that popopopopo immediately accepted the voting alliance without questioning, and that this in turn was accepted without questioning. It felt alignment indicative to me but I couldn't fathom in which direction without doing some heavy meta lifting

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

I kept waiting for him to follow up that comment on me but it never happened so I assumed it was a sort of scum-testing-the-waters thing

But I also made a lot more content between then and now

I am currently somewhat lost in this game because I do think popopopopo's past few pages are towny

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

This post claiming issues with my vote is leaving out the VITAL fact that I am norwe's vote slave. In doing that, he completely misrepresented my supposed reasoning for switching votes. The push feels fake and based off a misrep. Norwe was cranking the pressure up pretty hard my man guilty needed a release.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

i mean who tf knows with this guy. He wants to nolynch, then he wants to quick lynch. Idk his alignment but certified VI

I agree with everything here.

VOTE: popopo

This was quick vote on me i fucked up the tags
I've only played with quikc town. in those games he was prone to crackpot theories, unorthodox pushes like he was going at truth with. BUT This vote is very weak especially after all his other interactions he hops on me with GL because of GLs bad and misrepping post.

VOTE: popo

Lol ill be phone posting all weekend but look at this dudes iso its all townreads and then a naked hop on me. Could be the worst vote on my wagon. This guy is straight cruising and found an easy spot to park his vote but I ain't mislynch bait like that bro.

LicketyQuickety - town lean his vote on me was bad but quick likes an illogical bad push as much as anyone so it doesnt surprise me he voted me. his incessant pushing on truth early feels town motivated coming from this particular player.
NorwegianboyEE - town lean i explained already
Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree
osuka - null town feels like a saudade type player where he just calls people retards and argues. hard to read, but the argument with truth seemed genuine enough
Truth - any read i have is irrelevant, mechanics will sort. im more inclined to believe the claim than not.
Glitch - null seems like a noob. i find this type of player hard to sort. at least looks like hes trying.
Nauci - null his early posts pinged me as forced, he has been posting more thoughtfully since.
Candy Shop - null dont really have an impression of this slot, this is the NL guy right? ok i checked his ISO. idk
ndmath - null no impression of this slot
mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look
GuiltyLion - scum lean i explained
Cat Scratch Fever - scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree

Are you talking about this?

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever / rozyrozNDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Looker didn't even give reads - he just said which slots were good info lynches?

yes thats what I was talking about.

mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look

Why is this weird? He said he was in the middle of catching up earlier.

the timing is suspicious. It could also be a coincidence i grant u.

Cat Scratch Fever - scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

Which townreads do you disagree with?

Its less about me disagreeing with them that it is the way you hand them out.

Cat scratch leans town on quick and nauci, then he semi- walks back the nauci read after a light prod by norwe (203). Then he town reads norwe and osuka, and hops on guilty for no real reason

lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

I'm townreading Norway and I think osuka is townish. Still think Quick is prob town but he seems to have trouble getting his point across

VOTE: guiltylion

Notice he doesnt call guilty scum here. Doesn't really provide a reason for his vote at all.

In fact cat scratch never calls GL scum, except he does post this

I think Quick and Osuka are TvT right now, and this back and forth is rapidly growing tiring to follow. Why don't we all hug it out and vote GuiltyLion or something

So here there is a push for more votes on guilty. He's never called guilty even scummy tho? But he's voted for him and called for others to vote him. Then he votes for me, with no explanation of either his original guilty read or his new vote on me. He provided a reason for the vote on me when I pressed him.

I'd vote cat but guilty is likely his partner so ill stick with nii chan for now

BTW cats vote on me was sheeping GLs attack on me after already voting for GL and calling for others to vote there. A bizarre turnaround.

So GL OMGUSd me and started a counter wagon to deflect attention and his partner cat hopped on innocuously a couple votes in?
Sometimes its just that easy

vote: cat scratch

GL last couple pages was ok

after sleeping on it and the last back and forth im not as confident on the GL/cat scratch scumteam. Scratch is scummy independently though, his early play was intentionally inoffensive and his hop on my wagon was very bad.

I still think lions push one me is bad, but his aw shucks demeanor and trying to see things from norwes POV make me feel less strongly about it. I'd like more votes on cat his iso pre voting me is very poor as I've laid out.

Considering how all of these posts from popopopopo talk about why he scumreads CSF, I don't think I buy that you genuinely think it was exclusively because he thought that voteslaving would get him lynched that he voted elsewhere, Glitch.

Spoiler: NDmath and Po

Reads Tiered:
Norwee
osuka quick
popo catscratch looker mavs
Glitch nauci
Candyshop
Lion

Towniest
Quick Norwee
Looker
Catscratch
Mavs popo nauci --null
osuka Blair
Guilty Glitch

vigilante shooting town n1, seems about right

I don't get your hatred for vigilantes. Either way it was a poe shot which is a good shot.

Miller Mason is a Normal Role. SK's are not allowed in Mini-Normals.

*Insert spiritual popo vote*

-Ordered Reads-
Quick
Blair
Looker
Dunn
Nauci
Glitch

Spoiler: Truth and Po

popo feels like mafia as well.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

I have no clues or leads, but I have bad feelings from popopopopopopopopo because he feels like he doesn't care. I think mafia have less to care about, because they're okay with anyone that's town being lynched.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

Blair

: Blair had an early TR on popo when she first replaced in and then didn't say much on her from there, but she and Norway were the ones who successfully set the trap and caught popo in his own lies. Blair spoke out against popo consistently in D2. No way Blair is scum.

Dunnstral/mavs

: Fluff and nothing of note. Not taking a stand, just co-existing and not rocking the boat. Could be scummy. Does advocate for popo to be shot by vig yesterday in order to give the town and extra kill. Says we shouldn't kill popo unless a counter claim comes out. Counter claim comes out and Dunn votes popo. There's scummy stuff here and townie stuff here that pulls me in both directions.

Glitch

: I've always gotten scum vibes from po and voted for him in D2 but switched when realizing we could get a certain scum kill by lynching Truth and shooting popo. I've consistently spoken out against popo.

Looker

: Continuously questions and pushes against popo, but not with remarkable strength. Only votes for popo once there's actual confirmation from Norway on a guilty read. Could be genuine town -- could be scum bussing because he has to in order to not be SR'd.

Nauci

: Nauci spends the first part of the game asking about the vote slave pact, which granted we all did, but that's easy to coast with as scum. Then in 819 makes a large quote wall defense of Po's vote for CSF saying it was genuine, not done to get pressure off of him. Why does Nauci care so much?

NDmath

: Absolutely nothing except null reads, then spiritually joins the wagon when there's no way to oppose a popo elimination.

Truth

: Truth has been completely against and opposed to popo ALL ALONG.

I am so conflicted because everything is telling me to hang this slot and yet how could Truth possibly be scum, play as poorly as he has, AND bus popo literally the entire game?

I just don't understand.

I think it would be a much safer choice to aim for either Nauci or NDmath for the elimination today because they're the ones most suspect on my radar right now by PoE, and their stances on Po in the past. NDmath because of the lack of contribution overall; what an easy way to fly straight through the game if you literally just don't say anything productive about your scum partner at all? And Nauci stands out to me because of the defensiveness; it's not outright and strong, but that in and of itself is how scum would do it, so they wouldn't appear to be hardcore defending their partner. If we can't agree on one of them I'd be willing to talk about Dunn but his content reads more null to me whereas Nauci and NDmath have some legitimate points we need to consider.

I know this is a big sway but we have to really think about how Truth has related to popopo. I would advocate that we choose not to lynch Truth today because we are risking shooting a town slot -- the only way he is scum is if he has been conning us this whole game with a noob facade, which isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but I genuinely don't believe it to be the case when I analyze everything.

So let's zoom in close on NDmath. I've had suspicions on NDmath for a while. Firstly, my vote is not because I'm your top scum read, honestly that's fine. I'm a top scum read in every town game I play. People always say I'm a noob and my scumhunting sucks. As much as I continue trying to improve, it's just reality that my town play comes across as poor and noobish a lot of the times and that gets me votes. So the fact that you've consistently SR'd me is not my motivation here. Previous players who immediately jump onto others because they're their top SR is irritating to me because it's just OMGUS and people triggered that they're under suspicion.

This particular paragraph has nagged me for a while and I really don't like the use of a vote.

I didn't see value in voting at that point in time. I don't get why I can't be not voting in peace when it's still early in the dayphase and I'm not one to case early on. I'm helping just as much without voting in that you got the impression that if I did vote it would be for you and received the same amount of pressure from it, I don't get that point at all.

I'm a big believer in wagons and votes. We have 2 tools to use unless given a PR, and those are our voice and our votes. Even if you're not certain, use your vote. You don't have to be certain. It's a tool to form pressure, pressure creates content, and content creates results. Mafia can easily hide behind the curtain of withholding their vote to try to stay under the radar.

Additionally, there are lots of random instances that make me raise my eyebrow that pile up. GuiltyLion made a strong case against you in 878 bringing your meta into the game. (And the very next page you have a strong enough SR on GL to vote for him. Shallow.) There's also your legendary 986 self-scum-meta where you prophesy your own playstyle as being scummy. Then there's this:

The thought that I'm not scumhunting this game. Since I didn't bother to pretend to scumhunt in my scum game.

Pray, do tell, in which of your 18 posts this game have you genuinely scumhunted?
Additionally:

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

(Posting one at a time to make lion happy.)

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

What's there to not understand?

Osuka's posts comprise of the brief fight with Quick, a lot of posts facepalming at Truth which are mostly meaningless, and a very lazy and unsubstantiated push on me.

I scumreads the way that Osuka talks about my posting as "weird" repeatedly without ever explaining weird how—it's exactly the kind of shallow shade throwing without being able to come up with a proper case/narrative that signifies scum pushes vs town ones, especially at an opportune time when others like CSF were FoSing me.

He has repeatedly tried to misconstrue the way I have tried to explain his meta to the game as buddying, even though I've repeatedly told him and everyone else why I said what I did about him and wasn't at buddying. He's not engaging with my push at all or answering my question.

I read osuka's iso, I should have done that in the first place.

@NDMath you said you were fully caught up, right? Why are you still not voting?

I'm getting too much humour out of people making comments on me not voting.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

I have Intent to hammer on osuka.

So let me get this straight. First, you don't understand why people are suspecting osuka. Then you read his ISO. (And what? Now you get it? Or you don't agree?) Then you vote GL immediately after that. (Did you SR him after reading his ISO? Or did you not agree with him being scummy at that point?) And then fast forward you declare intent to hammer osuka. What changed? I saw no content whatsoever in your iso between your 908 comment and your out-of-the-blue intent to hammer. The only thing you mentioned about him is how bewildered and confused you were by his behavior and that it doesn't make sense for either alignment. What was the progression there?

This doesn't even mention the fact that when popo was finally nailed and the ship was RAPIDLY sinking and he knew it, he last-minute voted for you. Why? Why would he vote for you on a sinking ship? Po got all wrapped up in a trap and played his way poorly all the way through the end. Did he play so poorly to try and keep our suspicions off of you by letting his last vote be placed on you? A sad attempt at a last minute bus?

Let's crack down and stop playing games. Let's get real and deal with the fact that Truth is not smart enough to bus popo an entire game, but NDmath's posts are lacking across the board.

[Glitch]

VOTE: NDmath

[Glitch]

Dunnstal. Are you actually sheeping at this point in the game when you have neither read the whole game nor read my wall that you're sheeping?

What makes my walls townie to you?

[Glitch]

VOTE: NdMath

I like the look of 1944 from the parts I've skimmed so far and I've been thinking this lurking is his scum meta

I haven't read most of the game. I like/respect Glitch's wall posts and cases, and I was suspecting NDMath due to having played a scum game with him where he very much lurked it out in the main thread

Giant wall of text with a tone of authority = town player

So let me get this straight. After I spent 5 hours reading, quoting, building a case, writing out my genuine thoughts on why NDmath is scummy yesterday, you show up, having not even read it all, and are like "lol yup big wall, so town! lemme sheep it!" You admit to not having read most of the game. Then how do you know your reads are solid? You said you had a scum lean because of meta, but then what was your tipping point? Something must have changed recently because your past experience with NDmath has been there since you replaced in. What did NDmath do recently that made it to where his scum play with you in the past makes you want to vote for him now, but didn't make you want to vote him off before? Is your meta argument on him actually that strong and he did something that made you think "now he's definitely scum!" Or do you now SR him because there's a giant wall against him that you think makes a great case even though you haven't even read it? I don't like the feel of this at all from a slot that has pinged me as null for a long time.

[Glitch]

Looker

: Continuously questions and pushes against popo, but not with remarkable strength. Only votes for popo once there's actual confirmation from Norway on a guilty read. Could be genuine town -- could be scum bussing because he has to in order to not be SR'd.

I think it'd be more accurate to say I voted him my first post of the day. And, in the interest of challenging your survivalism, what would questions and pushes of "remarkable strength" look like to you? Beyond voting, I mean.

The purpose in pointing out the lack of strength in your peppered questions to popo throughout the game is not something I think is AI and makes you scummy. The reason I brought it up is because, as we look back over your interactions with popo, I can read them as if you're town and I can read them as if you're scum and they all make sense either way. It doesn't indicate anything to me about your alignment and I was hoping to go back and see that it pointed to some town vibes for you. 492, 544, 620, 681, 1502. Those interactions with popo which I was hoping would help steer us in a clearer direction regarding your alignment, do not do so. The only post that you have that even mildly suggests that you're not on a team with popo is 922. Your percentage breakdown of who you would like to lynch is objectively townie because it leaves no room to hide or ignore every player, which is definitely townie. And in 922 you've got popo pretty high up there. Scum could do this as well but it wasn't necessary for you to SR him that high up at that point and that's interesting.

37% Nauci | 25% Truth | 17% Blair/Dunnstral | 12% Glitch | 9% NDMath

Can we revisit why you're at 25% on Truth? In what ways do you feel that Truth's relationship with popo is scum indicative?

I value voice way more than my vote in most cases. "Mafia can easily hide behind the curtain of withholding their vote to try to stay under the radar." I can't not be voting day 1 without people screaming about it so this point really doesn't stand.

I don't understand how it wouldn't be a double standard to scumread me for finally voting. In 986 I was comparing my scum game to people's interpretation of my play this game.

I tried getting more information from popo to sort his claim. I argued on your scumcase of catscratch. When debating lion I was further evaluating my read on him. I'm curious how you would define, displaying scumhunting?

Light scumread, realized my other scumreads weren't gonna be hung today so I switched over.

I was his best chance of lasting to night? He was also scumreading me earlier so that would look more consistent. Why would popo intentionally play poorly as you're proposing?

I don't understand what your point is when you say, "I can't not be voting day 1 without people screaming about it." Can you clarify?

Valuing voice over vote is a nice thought in the abstract, but that still doesn't make my point moot. When given a task and two tools with which to complete it, choosing not to use the second one to it's fullest extent is not the best idea, particularly when not using your vote is a weak scum move.

Regarding your scumhunting. You said you tried getting more info from popo to sort his claim. Are you talking about 1690? Can you tell me why 1690 is AI?

Massclaiming at F5 beats a vig shot and massclaiming at F4.

What does F# stand for?

---

• Truth has waived all rights to be suspicious of anyone with his play. My intent is to kill one of the cats today.
  • If Truth thinks NDMath is trying to out a doc and kill them, why is he voting anyone other than NDMath and why is he voting along
    with
    NDMath?

I think it stands for Final.

I would be interested in hearing why Nauci is your strongest SR, and for some reason I'm just now realizing your point you made earlier that she was on the osuka wagon but not on the popo wagon. I'm want to dive into that slot a little more.

And obviously Nauci wishes I was the policy vig, because I can see how scummy he looks today. He doesn't even say he thinks I'm scum.

Can you expound on this more, particularly the policy vig part?

[Glitch]

I've had the same thought about Blair but honestly she is their most likely target tonight and there's just no way town has any protecting roles left for tonight. If it had been an earlier night they targeted her it may have been thwarted but at tonight if they target her she's probably gone. If she isn't gone tomorrow I will be taking that more into consideration but scum with 2 NKs each night seems really overpowered. We may have a stacked and overpowered town left too though.

Nauci when you asked about either of Truths claims did you mean his Miller Mason claim and his VT claim? His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

Looker I'm so curious what your thoughts on truth are because you also expressed a desire to lynch there.

Dunnstral can you answer my question about when your read of ndmath went from meta scum reading him but not enough to vote for him - to suddenly seeing my big townie wall that you didn't fully read and then that was enough for you to want to vote him now? What was the progression there?

Sorry I'm replying from my phone so I can't quite stuff well

[Glitch]

Chill out, when I started posting I was still getting a feel for the game and then the popopo stuff happened and I got sidetracked talking about that. Today I'm examining everyone with a smaller pool of players

This is my response to that

Mafia Vigilante is not a normal role and SK isn't in minis, so Blair must be town vig

Wrong answer.

I have

intent to hammer

on Dunnstral. I'd really like to hear Lookers thoughts on why he prefers Truth or Nauci over Dunnstral at this point.

[Glitch]

I won't hammer before I hear from Looker and before Nauci catches up, but once they're active I intend to hammer unless their content sways me a different direction. Or if Dunn makes a comeback that's decent. But this whole page of his is scum caught AF. We'll see as more people weigh in.

[Glitch]

His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

Blair what are your thoughts on this? Truth is ridiculous but have a hard time seeing him as scum because of his relationship with popo. Do you bekievenhis miller mason claim or his relationship with po are AI?

[Glitch]

His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

Blair what are your thoughts on this? Truth is ridiculous but I have a hard time seeing him as scum because of his relationship with popo. Do you believe his miller mason claim or his relationship with po are AI?

ebwop sorry phone posting

[Glitch]

I never claimed to never lie, but I haven't lied this game yet regardless.

f

a

s

c

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[Glitch]

Okay, I will admit it. I am not a miller or a mason. I am a vanilla townie and have no special abilities.
I knew I am weak when I started playing so

my goal was to be killed by the mafia in the night

which would help town a lot to win I think. But

my plan didn't work and mafia didn't kill me

. I kept asking for doctors to be on me and event alked about my buddies which never existed to make mafia believe I was really a mason, and then I was hoping they would have a strongman or they went for it anyway, but they never did...
I'm sorry for lying to you all. It seemed like a good play to me and

I'm quite sure I would have been lynched on day 1 if I didn't claim it so I don't think it was a bad play

. Please believe me.

When I read Blair's 2000 I wasn't really getting it but when I went back and read this post there's a clear and very evident contradiction here. The first two statements that I highlighted seem to indicate that your goal was to use get killed by Mafia because the town would be better of if you were one of the early NK's since you are a weaker player. However, the last statement I highlighted seems to indicate that your goal by making the claim was actually to keep yourself alive longer.

Which was it? Did you want to make this supposed noble sacrifice? Or were you making a wild move out of self-preservation?

Whichever answer to that question is the true answer, then why did you make a conflicting statement?

Please answer all my questions, not just choose one question to answer and ignore all the others, like you did when I wrote a wall against you.

[Glitch]

"Get nightkilled" and "Don't get lynched" are not mutually exclusive.

"Get nightkilled by fake claiming" and "Fake claim something that gets lynched or vig'd often" are actual contradictions, however.

I had to read that first line like 4 times to get it but now I see what you're saying. That makes more sense now. Okay, scratch my 2032 questions.

Your second line I'm still working on wrapping my head around. Miller gets killed frequently by town because it's sus to claim it to begin with, so why claim that if your goal is to get killed by scum? That makes sense.

His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

Blair what are your thoughts on this? Truth is ridiculous but have a hard time seeing him as scum because of his relationship with popo. Do you bekievenhis miller mason claim or his relationship with po are AI?

"His relationship with Popo"? He was scumreading Popo but didn't help lynch him. How is that town indicative?

The Miller fake claim (we now know it was fake, that is an important data point) is objectively alignment indicative, yes. The only discernible motivation to lie about being a Miller is to avoid being investigated - something a Vanilla Townie would not be afraid of.

Also, I'm sorry, but I 100% do not buy that he signed up for this game, received a Vanilla Townie role, and then decided he was out of his depth and immediately (in his very first post!) lied about his role

to try to get himself nightkilled

. Way more likely that he just didn't want to get investigated.

I understand this argument. Here's where my breakdown comes in though.

Truth has played on a whole new level of noob in this game; one I've never seen before. It's incredible, actually. Therefore, the thought that someone who plays this poor, changes how I interpret a Miller Mason false claim that you say is objectively alignment indicative. Under normal circumstances with any other player in this game, yes, I would agree that it

is objectively

alignment indicative. However, because Truth, a player who has demonstrated a shocking lack of skill and aptitude to succeed as a strong player, is the one who made this false claim, we have to think about this fake claim through the lenses of how an unskilled noob would approach making a claim like that, not how an average-joe player would approach that strategy. That changes things up. Someone of Truth's...

caliber

seems unlikely of coming up with a Miller Mason claim as a self-preservation method as scum. That's a stretch in my mind. However, a noob coming up with that thought makes more sense if they're literally just scrolling through the wiki looking for ideas on how to live longer or play better. I'm not saying it was a good judgment call, but I could see how Truth's line of thinking that has been presented through the game makes sense with a town aligned noob role rather than a scum aligned noob role.

This is a comment for outside this game: Truth, I hope you don't take any of this on a personal level, by the way. I have been astounded by your play in this game and it

has

been very poor, but that's nothing personal against you, you just suck at playing this game and that's okay lol. You have made this game very different and interesting which has made it more fun, and while I do need to critically analyze your contributions and play with honesty, I do not want you to take away anything personal from my comments as that is not the intention.

PEdit

: 2035 hit after I had written this all out above. I honestly had not put 2&2 together on the non-contradiction there and was thinking of it more on a surface level.

[Glitch]

Okay, I will admit it. I am not a miller or a mason. I am a vanilla townie and have no special abilities.
I knew I am weak when I started playing so my goal was to be killed by the mafia in the night which would help town a lot to win I think. But my plan didn't work and mafia didn't kill me. I kept asking for doctors to be on me and event alked about my buddies which never existed to make mafia believe I was really a mason, and then I was hoping they would have a strongman or they went for it anyway, but they never did...
I'm sorry for lying to you all. It seemed like a good play to me and I'm quite sure I would have been lynched on day 1 if I didn't claim it so I don't think it was a bad play. Please believe me.

When you read through this on a surface level, it can give out two messages. "I want to die," and "I don't want to die." That's what I took away from it and posted up my questions because it didn't make sense to me. 2033 helped me understand how the two can consistently coexist, but if you want to take it as me intentionally framing him up to look bad, I don't have a defense there except to say that I took back my questioning once I understood, and did so before you moved your vote onto me.

[Glitch]

I wasn't asking if you thought it was scummy, I was asking what 'questions' and 'pushes' of "remarkable strength" look like to you. Because I'm not sure you're not just saying things to make you look better.

I've tried to up my game this time a lot because in past games I have been voted off for playing poorly and because my scum hunting sucks. I read up on how to be a good scum hunter on the wiki and this is one of the main points that has stuck with me:

2. Don't lose sight.

Ignore other players' inquiries if their questions don't move you closer to lynching your target player. Take things further. Get an emotional reaction out of your victim by heavily accusing them of scum backed by whatever evidence you have.

It should be 50% evidence, 50% accusation.

You should make it clear to your suspect that you will never change your mind about them, and you will do anything to get them lynched, every day, every page, every damn post. This will work to your advantage. Keep the ball on your court, rob the scum of their dominance and place them in a frame of survival. This way, you are exploiting the maximum bussing potential of a scumteam.

This is something I've been working hard on in this game as I try to improve, and because of that, it's something that I've also been watching how others approach. It makes sense why it's pro-town -- it gets results, it creates content, it exposes vulnerabilities. Basically the essence is... push people hard. Use evidence and use accusation. I haven't seen much of the latter in your posts; and I'm not saying that that makes your posts poor quality. I enjoy reading your posts and I like how organized and systematized you are in writing them, and I think you are very observant and address important points. But I don't see many accusations and I don't see a lot of pushing. I just see a lot of poking around and digging, which, like I said, is good. But to my answer to your question: when I said I didn't see a lot of strength to your pushes, that's what I was talking about. Rather than push with accusations and using your vote with a case to sway others and form more pressure, it seemed that all the votes you've cast this game aren't accompanied by much of a case at all.

Spoiler: All posts where Looker votes

Popopo. You will be my voting slave

More than 2 masons in a mini setup sounds implausible. A hood would be more likely for that.

Truth has all but admitted it's a hood. It's a hood until proven otherwise.

Do you feel we have a legitimate claim 7 pages in?

Do you think Truth is telling the truth about his role?

Why are you trying to avoid RVS?

---

VOTE: LicketyQuickety Consider it a reward for your...effort

do you have any reads

I feel you're just saying that because it's an easy thing to say.

Looker needs to give some reads/any reads

I think it'd be easier if you just voted me instead of pretending to scumhunt.

here's my "taking a look at the whole game" reads for Norwegian:

Townies: CSF, Nauci, Lickety, Candy Shop
don't feel like voting today but maybe a scum: Looker, osuka
has not played the game yet: rozyroz
self-resolving: Truth
could see myself voting today: mavsfan, glitch
one of these two is scum: Norway, popopopopoppopopoopp

p-edit: What am I misdirecting away from? I replied directly to the latest two people that voted me

Most informational flip: GuiltyLion
Secondary options: LicketyQuickety / NorwegianboyEE
Gray Area/Reasons I'm not ready to end the day: Glitch / Candy Shop / Mavsfan / Cat Scratch Fever /

rozyroz

NDMath / Osuka
Comfortable with delaying inspection: Truth / popopopo / Nauci

Why is Nauci town again? I feel like she’s been taking safe stances

I feel like {Glitch | Candy Shop | Mavsfan | Cat Scratch Fever |

rozyroz

NDMath | Osuka} are the safe ones.

---

VOTE: GuiltyLion How many people on your wagon are scum?

My cat trust circle is right! Cat Scratch Fever, GuiltyLion, Nauci, NorwegianboyEE, Truth all town.

How do you know this?

I dont really see scum norwe faking a guilty out of the blue

Even as a bus to endgame?

I am the vig I shot cat scratch. I knew it was a non legit guilty because I am town, so I fake claimed vt because I knew its a fake guilty. I didnt consider gunsmith in that decision and that's me being dumb.

Why CSF over GuiltyLion/LicketyQuick?

I'm 2 shot

That's pretty convenient.

---

• We can't rule out a NorwegianboyEE bus; I don't want him to make it to endgame.
  
• Don't allow NorwegianboyEE to chain lynches unless he gets another guilty.
  
• My lynch preferences are 31% popopo | 21% Blair or
  mavsfan41
  Dunnstral | 19% LQ | 11% NDMath | 8% Nauci | 7% Norway | 3% Truth | >1% Glitch

VOTE: popopo

Lynch preferences are: 22% GuiltyLion | 19% Blair or mavsfan41 | 14% popopo or osuka | 12% NDMath | 11% LicketyQuickety | 8% Glitch or NorwegianboyEE | 7% Cat Scratch Fever | 4% Truth | 3% Nauci

Osuka's dead and this moves popopo up

• Why wasn't Blair killed last night?
  
• I don't listen to meta arguments unless they're all-encompassing. 1 game isn't an adequate sample size.

VOTE: Nauci

[Glitch]

Glitch, if you don't mind, I would like some pointers into how you think I could improve after the game is over. I am sorry if I am making the game worse to play for anyone but am glad if you find it more interesting because of me. Having a town like osuka get mad at me is not enjoyable for me or him, so I would like to work to improve that.

You're not making it worse, brother, you've made it fun and super different from most of the other games I play. I like playing games with a Shyamalan twist in them. I'm not an expert, I'm actually pretty noobish myself if you look into my past games. I get lynched a lot for playing pretty bad. But I've been trying hard to step it up this game, reading up on how to play well. I've actually been planning to try and get some tips and pointers myself from some of the pros in this game once this one is over on how to improve my gameplay as well.

[Glitch]

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

When did this read on Truth develop and how did you come to this conclusion? Looking through your ISO, you have very little to say about Truth, and the few things you do say aren't much. Additionally, you even left him out of your reads lists all three times you posted one.

If it's a neighborhood it must strictly be with candyshop/blair because that's the only way it hasn't been outed yet.
So he's either mason or mafia. He isn't be the hang today, so I'm not gonna give further comment until it's a day we could realistically hang him.

Why did you put off the Truth discussion until today? Because it's a slot that will "work itself out?" Or because you're scum and didn't want to push against someone you believed could be a mason, making it very difficult to get him voted off during a day phase?

[Glitch]

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

I can agree my solve doesn't make the most sense...

I'm struggling with your claim gambit. My first reaction is that it comes from town over scum, but I am struggling to justify that to myself.

If you're first reaction is that his claim gambit is town indicative, and then upon further inspection you find that the main 2 people Truth has pushed this game are your top SR and a confirmed scum, then how do those things work together to make you think Truth is scum? If you're just thinking out loud as you're developing your read, that's fine; I just would like to hear what your complete judgement is on the Truth slot once you think all these things through. Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

[Glitch]

Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Truth wagon. If he were being eliminated for playing like a noob, it would have happened on Day 1.

People have presented complex, carefully thought out, nuanced arguments for why they believe Truth is scum - why are you reducing the debate to this?

I think you're over-buffing the arguments presented against him. I've had a lot of questions, and there have been a lot of things that don't make sense that have come up -- and most times I bring them up or someone else does, Truth comes back with an answer that is consistent with the playstyle of a noob townie that has played the same game all along. Truth is either playing noob!scum or noob!town and when you read these excerpts, noob!town makes a lot more sense than noob!scum:

Spoiler: Truth's posts that can't be noob scum

Goddammit, I suck. All this discussion about me is a waste of time because I am not mafia. I'm sorry for leading town down this route because it just helps mafia hide behind this. I regret claiming.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

I am personally happy with my vote on po

My suspects are po

popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

Are people doubting my mason claim because I didn't die? I think maybe mafia didn't target me because they were scared of doctors being on me. Which is great!

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

I only went off the po wagon because I thought the vigilante could kill him instead without giving themselves away. I still thought he was mafia from day 1 to day 2.

I claimed the miller part because I saw on the wiki that people who get miller claim it in day 1, so I thought it would make me more believable.

NDMath, why should a doctor speak up instead of just secretly protecting Blair and making mafia waste a kill?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

The first post you showed in that post you voted me, I was lying and was not okay with being lynched. I was just trying to prove to mafia that I actually was a mason and had no fear of proving my buddies as innocent if I died.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

Truth says he claimed mason to stay alive and miller so he could claim right off the bat. That makes sense for a noob town to make that play.

[Glitch]

I argue that the second tool had no utility at that specific point in time. You keep saying "it's a weak scum move" but that wouldn't/doesn't make it scum indicative.

Let me put this together. When I broke this down and analyzed this:

Spoiler: NDmath's progression on osuka, Day 1

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

(Posting one at a time to make lion happy.)

I'm not understanding the attacks on osuka.

What's there to not understand?

Osuka's posts comprise of the brief fight with Quick, a lot of posts facepalming at Truth which are mostly meaningless, and a very lazy and unsubstantiated push on me.

I scumreads the way that Osuka talks about my posting as "weird" repeatedly without ever explaining weird how—it's exactly the kind of shallow shade throwing without being able to come up with a proper case/narrative that signifies scum pushes vs town ones, especially at an opportune time when others like CSF were FoSing me.

He has repeatedly tried to misconstrue the way I have tried to explain his meta to the game as buddying, even though I've repeatedly told him and everyone else why I said what I did about him and wasn't at buddying. He's not engaging with my push at all or answering my question.

I read osuka's iso, I should have done that in the first place.

@NDMath you said you were fully caught up, right? Why are you still not voting?

I'm getting too much humour out of people making comments on me not voting.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

I have Intent to hammer on osuka.

What you're saying is that at no point was your vote useful or called for when you were evaluating osuka in 828 and 908. Okay, that makes sense. You weren't shading him. You weren't outright SR'ing him. When you replaced in you actually had him ranked pretty high on your reads list in your 722 catchup. So, okay. Fair.

But

if you were not SR'ing osuka at that point then it's too convenient that you DID answer my accusations in 1944 that withholding your vote from osuka was strange, but DID NOT address my questions about what your progression on osuka was. I asked you: What was the progression and what changed in your read on osuka from 828 and 908 all the way up to 1501? There was no progression. It was bullshit. You made a statement between 828 and your intent to hammer osuka in 1501, but it is borderline self-contradictory:

Osuka I am bewildered more than anything. The extent of his truth interaction

doesn't make sense to me

for either alignment.

There's nothing wrong in the nature of the attacks on him but the points are fully in his control and scum!osuka probably(?) wouldn't have played into that situation in the first place. (Grant, I have no experience with osuka.) [...]

Towniest
Quick Norwee
Looker
Catscratch
Mavs popo nauci --null

osuka

Blair
Guilty Glitch

So osuka doesn't make sense for either alignment, which to me I understand as null. But later in the same post he's on your reads list as scummier than null... just not scummiest. So what happened? When and why did osuka go from not-worth-voting-for early on, to null, to intent to hammer?

Also:

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

I can agree my solve doesn't make the most sense...

Once again, just like with osuka, your read on Truth and your statement on Truth don't line up with each other. It would be really convenient for scum to have the ability to leave comments and reads behind that show both support AND hesitancy towards the osuka lynch and the Truth Train, so that if they fall under scrutiny for one of their uncertain or not-super-clear statements, they could reference back to the other one and say, "Look, I didn't mean it like that." There's too much that doesn't line up and it feels like scum walking on egg shells.

VOTE: NDmath

[Glitch]

I wasn't asking if you thought it was scummy, I was asking what 'questions' and 'pushes' of "remarkable strength" look like to you. Because I'm not sure you're not just saying things to make you look better.

I've tried to up my game this time a lot because in past games I have been voted off for playing poorly and because my scum hunting sucks. I read up on how to be a good scum hunter on the wiki and this is one of the main points that has stuck with me:

So you're following a checklist on "How To Town"?

2. Don't lose sight.

Ignore other players' inquiries if their questions don't move you closer to lynching your target player. Take things further. Get an emotional reaction out of your victim by heavily accusing them of scum backed by whatever evidence you have.

It should be 50% evidence, 50% accusation.

You should make it clear to your suspect that you will never change your mind about them, and you will do anything to get them lynched, every day, every page, every damn post. This will work to your advantage. Keep the ball on your court, rob the scum of their dominance and place them in a frame of survival. This way, you are exploiting the maximum bussing potential of a scumteam.

This is something I've been working hard on in this game as I try to improve, and because of that, it's something that I've also been watching how others approach. It makes sense why it's pro-town -- it gets results, it creates content, it exposes vulnerabilities. Basically the essence is... push people hard. Use evidence and use accusation. I haven't seen much of the latter in your posts; and I'm not saying that that makes your posts poor quality. I enjoy reading your posts and I like how organized and systematized you are in writing them, and I think you are very observant and address important points. But I don't see many accusations and I don't see a lot of pushing. I just see a lot of poking around and digging, which, like I said, is good. But to my answer to your question: when I said I didn't see a lot of strength to your pushes, that's what I was talking about. Rather than push with accusations and using your vote with a case to sway others and form more pressure, it seemed that all the votes you've cast this game aren't accompanied by much of a case at all.

• How many games have you played with ABR where his methods have been effective?
  
• You're also avoiding my request - give me an example of a 'hard push'.
  
• And I get that you thought "Man, I suck at mafia; I should get some help", but I don't feel that way, and I'm not going to manufacture faux aggression to impress some guy who takes advice from ABR. He doesn't really seem to enjoy the games I've seen him play.
  • Also, I stand by my votes and the way that I made them.

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

I think it's suspicious that no one wants to jump on Nauci with me. Usually you can get at least one scum if the wagon is on town.

---

• Nauci's 2049 didn't clear up to me who
  s
  he thinks is scum - who is
  s
  he going to vote?

Lmao, how to town. xD In a way, yes, I've been taking as many pointers from the wiki as I can. I appreciate this response though because the article I referenced I presumed to be widely or generally accepted by the MS community as a valid article since it is up on the wiki itself. Other personalities, approaches, and strategies alter this of course but I guess I've just got to stop reading everything through lenses of one pro's interpretation of how to play well. To answer an example of a hard push -- I have tried multiple games to do this. My Second Push on Cat Scratch, my Push on Truth before he said the miller mason claim was false, and my Push on NDmath are examples of where I have tried hard to incorporate solid cases I have considered a hard push. I understand what you're saying, though, about not manufacturing faux aggression and I have never played or known anything about the author of that article -- I just thought it was widely accepted from being on the wiki. I get what you're saying though and am gonna try to adjust my analyses accordingly.

That said, I'm curious why you think that 2049 does not indicate that Nauci clearly SR's Truth?

[Glitch]

Personally, I've been eliminated many times in past games for playing like a noob, instead of being eliminated for playing like scum, and I feel like that's what's happening with this Truth Train.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of the Truth wagon. If he were being eliminated for playing like a noob, it would have happened on Day 1.

People have presented complex, carefully thought out, nuanced arguments for why they believe Truth is scum - why are you reducing the debate to this?

I think you're over-buffing the arguments presented against him. I've had a lot of questions, and there have been a lot of things that don't make sense that have come up -- and most times I bring them up or someone else does, Truth comes back with an answer that is consistent with the playstyle of a noob townie that has played the same game all along. Truth is either playing noob!scum or noob!town and when you read these excerpts, noob!town makes a lot more sense than noob!scum:

Spoiler: Truth's posts that can't be noob scum

Goddammit, I suck. All this discussion about me is a waste of time because I am not mafia. I'm sorry for leading town down this route because it just helps mafia hide behind this. I regret claiming.

Should we quickly lynch popopopopopopopopo and go into night? I don't we'll get a better suspect than this and it may be good to go to the night without giving mafia any more information.

I am personally happy with my vote on po

My suspects are po

popopopopopopo (1): Truth ... Mafia!

VOTE: po

For yesterday, I think he could be the mafia we are looking for.

Are people doubting my mason claim because I didn't die? I think maybe mafia didn't target me because they were scared of doctors being on me. Which is great!

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

I only went off the po wagon because I thought the vigilante could kill him instead without giving themselves away. I still thought he was mafia from day 1 to day 2.

I claimed the miller part because I saw on the wiki that people who get miller claim it in day 1, so I thought it would make me more believable.

NDMath, why should a doctor speak up instead of just secretly protecting Blair and making mafia waste a kill?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

The first post you showed in that post you voted me, I was lying and was not okay with being lynched. I was just trying to prove to mafia that I actually was a mason and had no fear of proving my buddies as innocent if I died.

I have always suspected po and tried to lynch him and I do not understand why you would think I could be partners with him. And now NDMath is saying the mafia are Truth and Dunnstral which would mean I as mafia have only been voting or trying to get my mafia partners lynched. I do not understand this at all.

Truth says he claimed mason to stay alive and miller so he could claim right off the bat. That makes sense for a noob town to make that play.

That's all well and good, but you didn't just characterize Truth as a newbie - you characterized the case(s) against him as him being scumread for being a newbie. This was false.

VOTE: Glitch

These posts read like scum who knows we're about to flip a Townie.

Stop making me change my vote.

The case(s) against him that you say are SR'ing Truth for being scum are these, corrent?

Blair, if you look at the wiki pages for Miller and Mason, you will see what I mean under Play Advice:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mason

It does not look like you are supposed to claim mason straight away so I thought it would look suspicious, which is why I tried combining it with miller which it recommends to claim straight away in your opening post.

Two problems with that:

1. You'd have to already know Miller was a viable option in the first place to even CHECK the wiki page for Miller (I bring this up because you are playing the "Ignorant Newbie" card.

2. The VERY NEXT sentence on the wiki states that claiming Miller makes you more likely to be voted out or shot by a Vigilante.

You claimed that the entire reason you lied about being a Miller was to get yourself nightkilled, but then tacked a Miller claim onto it that made the nightkill extremely unlikely.

It makes more sense to me that you claimed Miller so you wouldn't be investigated, and tacked Mason onto it so you wouldn't be lynched.

"Get nightkilled" and "Don't get lynched" are not mutually exclusive.

"Get nightkilled by fake claiming" and "Fake claim something that gets lynched or vig'd often" are actual contradictions, however.

Your argument breaks down to thinking Truth is scum because he is contradicting himself when claiming miller, which effectively keeps him from getting NK'd. But Truth said that he claimed mason to stay alive during the day phase, and miller so that he could claim right out the gate. That's not the smartest move, because claiming mason would get him NK'd but miller would keep him from getting NK'd, but that's something I totally would believe Truth would not consider. Truth said in 1999 that he claimed miller so that he could claim immediately. That makes sense. If you want to SR me for defending Truth, that's fine but it doesn't follow. If I were scum I would have hopped on this Truth Train a long time ago. I've made argument after argument against Truth and wanted to lynch him for so long, but when popo flipped scum and Truth revealed that the whole thing was a lie, my read flipped on him and I just can't support voting off someone I have such a strong TR on. I'm more inclined to believe that the scum are pushing this truth train because it's the easiest place to push and get support on.

[Glitch]

Albert B. Rampage's tactics are not widely accepted, despite being on the wiki.

(Faux aggression is great, though, if you have the chutzpah to pull it off)

I guess that's my learning point today. I'll release my adherence to the article then and look forward to a post-game discussion where maybe I can get some pointers from the active and skilled players here.

[Glitch]

[post style=Looker]

I'm more inclined to believe that the scum are pushing this truth train because it's the easiest place to push and get support on.

Name them?

• N
• D
• math

Runners up are Nauci and Dunnstral.

[Glitch]

Your solve is:

{NDMath | Nauci / Dunnstral}

Aren't Nauci and Dunnstral both pushing NDMath? How confident are you that one of them is bussing? Which one is more likely to be a bus and why?

This is probably going to annoy you and Looker once again. I promise I don't pull out the wiki like a handbook manual but there have been a few things guiding my play, and this is one of them. xD

Do not fool yourself into thinking you can call the scumteam, especially before anyone has flipped scum. Don't bother with trying to draw connections between players until one of them is dead. It's tempting! but futile.

I have not been trying to speculate on who could be playing together as a team but who is individually scummy. As soon as someone flips scum, then by all means, I'll check out their relationships with other players to see what it indicates, but it's been my understanding that trying to link two unflipped players together is not the most solid strategy. Of course if there is something clear we want to address it, but putting it together with two unflipped players doesn't seem to be smart.

Regardless, both Nauci and Dunnstral's "pushes" against NDmath have been lacking. Nauci's more than Dunnstral's. I could see both of them as a bus but moreso Nauci's. Looker is on my radar but only by PoE. I still find him so hard to sort. He's closest to town out of the four possibilities I narrowed it down to for scum. Truth's claim revocation and how he has handled it since then has me convinced he's town. You're definitely town after the wild popo trap. I know I'm town. That leaves 4 others left and I have to narrow it down from there. By PoE it has to be NDMath and then Nauci or Dunnstral,

maaaybe

Looker.

[Glitch]

I am starting to think Blair might be mafia. She is ignoring me when I'm trying to convince her and get her to talk to me. She also keeps moving her lynch target around like she doesn't actually believe in what she's going for.

A few pages ago, she said people were racing to be at the bottom of her "townreads". I find this suspcious - why didn't she say "mafiareads" or "scumreads"? I think this might be her slipping in knowing that the two people she was talking about were both town.

And she is now voting and attacking my number 1 townread because they are defending me. I think she is trying to make us all suspicious of each other.

VOTE: Blair

Spoiler:

[Glitch]

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

How much longer can Blair live before you start to suspect her?

---

• I think Nauci is noncommittal.
  
• I feel she's pseudo-distancing with Truth - she says she thinks he's scum, but she doesn't look like she's trying to flip him. She looks like she's hedging her bets on no one forming a wagon on him. If they do, she gets to jump on, saying "Well I suspected him the whole time".
  
• Blair's lying - I interact with everybody. Not everyone squats over their phone all day, looking at a fucking mafia thread. I don't know what these expectations are that I'm not meeting.
  
• I'd hope Nauci saying I'm either crazy or stupid would be beneath her.
  
• So Blair thinks I avoided mislynching Osuka, but bussed popopo?
  • And, depending on who she "vigged", she agreed with either my or Glitch's suspicions. I suspected GuiltyLion, Glitch suspected Cat Scratch Fever. The double standard isn't making sense to me.
• I question whether Nauci coached Truth in the scum PT, because her Post 2112 resembles Truth's Post 619, where he urged other people to start bandwagons that he was not going to be a part of.

I've been wondering if the reason you're set on pointing out that Nauci isn't using her vote was to point out that she is being noncommittal. It gave off the impression you didn't understand who she was SR'ing rather than just questioning why she isn't voting her SR. Did you truly believe that Nauci's 2049 didn't clearly show who she thinks is scum, or did you ask questions with the intent of trying to see why she has a SR without a vote on Truth?

More coming later, family is over for dinner.

[Glitch]

nope. listen Looker, blair is scum here.

Would popo say this when he was 100% caught and grasping for any hope of staying alive... if Looker were scum? I wouldn't put it past him necessarily but if Looker is scum this is kind of theatrical on popo's part. If they are scum together, and popo wanted Looker to push Blair in an effort to keep himself alive, regardless of whether or not Looker would cooperate with that, wouldn't popo just tell Looker to make a case against Blair via their scum thread? But if popo were scum and Looker were town and popo was grasping at any possibility to stay afloat, then he would post 1853 as a sorry attempt to get Looker to vote Blair with him and save himself another day, since Looker expressed a lack of trust in Blair in 1768 and then had literally nothing to input whatsoever on the vigilante slot being claimed by two people when he posted 1850. It makes me lean just a little more towards town on Looker.

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

Dunnstral looks the best but not by much.

This progression is because you looked at how popo interacted with each player, right? Was there anything that changed your read on Dunnstral from his activity between 2058 and 2165 or was it exclusively the popo analysis?

NDmath why is popo @ Dunnstral post 1762 included in your list of posts that help you sort players? How is 1762 AI of Dunnstral, particularly why does it make you SR him less? Do you not think this could be a super easy SvS comment?

What is interesting to you about popo's 1419 where he is "foreshadowing if Truth changes his claim?" Based on what your comment on the bottom of your post says, I assume that means you think popo knew Truth would be changing his claim later in the game, therefore Truth is scum with popo. You think this is the case? Then why aren't you voting for Truth? Do you have evidence that makes Looker more scummy? If you have a SR on Truth, why isn't your vote on him? Or at least on Looker, even though I think there's a few things pointing to Looker and popo not really being scum together. If your reads are scum on those two players, where's your vote?

Also. Why, in your last post, did you completely ignore my second request for you to answer these questions?

[Glitch]

Truth, that hammer was scummy AF. I'll take the honor of hammering you like you hammered NDmath.

VOTE: Truth

[Glitch]

GG everyone. This was my first time playing scum online and I had a great time. Thank you to everyone for making this a great game. Truth I particularly would like to apologize for how hardcore I came at you through this whole game. It was -- to some degree -- part of me playing scum and I hope nothing I said made you feel bad. I needed to take advantage of the opportunity I had to make you look bad you and if any of that came across as a personal attack I apologize. Interestingly enough I thought that your Mason claim was true at the beginning and that you had crumbed guilty lion. That is why we chose to kill guilty lion the first night because we thought he was Mason buddies with truth.

[Glitch]

BLAIR YOU WERE SO FUN TO PLAY WITH

[Glitch]

Girl you kept me on my toes lmao

[Glitch]

We would have been in so much trouble if Nauci had made it in time.

I agree that that was an absolutely excellent use of a One-Shot Watcher role. Looker saw me performing a night action on Blair which totally messed up my claim strategy. That was going to be really rough. Very well played. I had set myself up to claim even night loyal doctor with a few posts on previous days softclaiming. Nauci picked up on one of them and mentioned that I was oddly confident in my statement. I was ready to make my claim and Looked messed it all up. Well done

[Glitch]

I have a question, particularly for Blair. You said multiple times that I was arguing in bad faith and maybe this is just me being uneducated but could you elaborate on what you mean by that and explain how I did so?

I'm asking genuinely to find out, not to say I didn't do it. Just trying to figure out how I argued "in bad faith."

I ask because I am wondering if if is something that is scummy but acceptable, or if it is actually like unethical playing regardless of alignment? Cause if it's the latter I want to identify it and fix it, and if it's the former I want to identify it and change my playing to strengthen my scum game. TIA

ALSO: MAD props to GL for nailing the scum team right away. I would love tips, review, and pointers from others on how I can improve.

Looker and others, interestingly enough when I posted my first wall someone called it out as IIoA and I had never heard of it. I searched it on the wiki and was like, "oh shit, he's right and he nailed me!" (I don't remember who it was but someone nailed it.) So at that point I started reading up on How to Town. I read Rampage's article and immediately started implementing it with my push on Cat Scratch and then NDmath and both seemed to get me town read better so I was really excited and stuck it out. Then when referencing Rampage people told me it wasn't the best advice so now I'm just learning as I go.

[Glitch]

Ebwop

I got the feeling that arguing in bad faith is considered unethical play regardless of what alignment you are, but I dont know and understand enough to first of all 1) know what is meant by that statement and 2) know if it's just like lying: a moral compromise necessary due to the nature of the game.

Is it like that? An acceptable moral compromise? Or is it classified with using personal life excuses and "fake unavailability" to further your wincon?

[Glitch]

Glitch played an excellent game

This makes me really happy. There were a lot of moments I felt like I was playing great, and a lot where i felt like I had royally crashed and burned. Ha

[Glitch]

VOTE: Dunnstral

who's seeing what I'm seeing

Nauci, was this post you realizing me and Dunnstral were a scum team? That's how I read it but I've been curious.

[Glitch]

Reading the mafia chat I'm amazed by Glitch's game summaries.

What about them? They saved my life. I had a really hard time following GL's logic and keeping up with the volume of posts from Quick and Norway. My notes are the only thing that saved me and they were a huge aide in helping me build cases against people.

Also to be fair, my push against you was total bullshit. I actually didn't think you were playing that bad, I just needed a target to throw shade at and I found an opportunity with you. I would love to play with you, and most everyone else here, again.

Is this about standard for how long games run and how active they are? Day 1 I was really struggling. I mean there were 2 or 3 days I spent 5 hours reading and writing in this game and it was just really intense. Part of that was because I was playing more careful as scum and didn't want to slip up. But part of it was just the sheer volume of content on D1. Is this normal? Cause I want to play again but if this is normal I'm gonna head over to that Geriatric thread and see if they want to start up a slower paced game because that was just so intense.

At the end of D3 I was also so exhausted and was so ready to just get an elimination on the road with. Had we not eliminated NDmath as fast as we did I think I would have ended up slipping up and rushing a lynch out of theatrical exhaustion. Keeping up the performance is hard work.

[Glitch]

Interesting. I would like everyone to know I am a

Miller Mason

. I have buddies but I won't be revealing who they are at this time. For now, I will act as their representative.

We would like a nice clean thread clear of profanities. Whenever giving a read or placing a vote, we would like a reason attached as to avoid people having to ask for the reasons. Thank you, we'll let you know if there's any updates.

MVP Most Valuable Post award
Once upon a time I would probably have thought this was weird but at this point in 2020 I could be suddenly devoured by a 99 tentacled cthulhu monster appearing out of nowhere in the California sky and be entirely unsurprised

[Glitch]

Wow that was a formatting clusterfuck and I have no idea why that truth quote is in there. Disregard. Sorry.

MVPost award goes to 47

[Glitch]

I had a scum read on Glitch on day 1 because everything was technically correct in the posts, but they always happened IRL-days or several pages after everyone else had the thoughts. Later on in the game though I felt like I was just desperately hoping the sane players are town ;_;

I had a major shift in strategy mid-day 1 after a handful of my walls had gone up. I was getting SR'd a lot at the beginning and as people pointed out why I adjusted accordingly. Someone called me on my first wall being IIoA and when I realized it was true i tried really hard to fix it but that's partially why it took me so long to play.

That said, I'm SO glad I got an intent to hammer in on Dunnstral without having to actually hammer. That made me feel really accomplished on top of my bus with popo. I play mostly in person so bussing is usually short and doesn't take a lot of effort. But had Dunn flipped later on I felt like I was set up well from there.

I think my biggest mistake was setting myself up for the Truth flip too hard. Defending him so hard was because even if I were town I would genuinely have made those arguments but when Blair called me on that saying I'm scum who knows we were about to flip town, i was like... Oh shit. She's right. LOL

[Glitch]

I know I'm still talking about Truth right now while no one else is but I am really not convinced to stop reading him as scum yet so I have more questions

before I can let this go

.

Scum slip