Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Nauci]

Maybe a valid situation for a normal lynch could be done by forming multiple bandwagons and seeing how people will vote between them. I am personally happy with my vote on po (shortening the name now).

God I hope you have a big reveal at the end that your entire post history is just the reactions of a neural net fed on Mafiascum wiki pages

[Nauci]

I can’t help but feel your progression to Popopo was after testing the waters for a Norwegian lynch then going to a much too easy scum linking of Norwegian/popopo. Surely scum won’t be that ballsy to pull off voting pattern like that?

@GL: do you still have a Popopo/Norwegian scum pairing?

I generally don't think it's S-S cause I agree with you, it feels too over the top. I do think it's likely at least one of them is scum though. If I thought they were definitely buddies, I would have just stayed on Norway, the point of switching was to switch gears to pressure popopopopopopopopo while still feeling out what the game state looks like if Norway and myself is TvT after all.

Also, popoppopopopopop's vote, even if it was nothing but a sheep, was exactly where scum would be hopping on my wagon, so that was the main reason my read on him soured so much. I generally don't believe there's a case on me worthy of votes at this point, I've started playing and engaging with the game so the 'activity' tell is out and I've also already shown Norway's RVS reasoning doesn't hold up.

I see why they shot you and I'm sorry buddeh

[Nauci]

Okay but can someone weigh in on my view that the sheer number of posts and the content they contained from Truth claiming what his "buddies" were saying to him are so numerous and sometimes even out of Truth's character that it is much easier for me to believe that his mafia buddies were ragging on him in their PT and Truth was pretending it was a mason PT

Because I am having a very hard time believing all of those "my buddies have since explained to me why this was bad" and other posts as just a VT talking to himself

[Nauci]

Who does Nauci think is scum?

Spoiler: Oh, I dunno...

(He's saying either they killed Norwe because he was more threatening or [WIFOM: They killed him because they expected us to expect them to kill me].

Nauci, are you a Mason / Neighbor?

Nope

Does this mean we burn the witch now

It has a lot to do with how confident you are that there will be at least one scum between Truth and [other person you would choose].

If you're 100% confident that at least one would be scum, then the oder becomes immaterial.

Otherwise, we have to consider the possibility that they are both town - in which case voting one out today and shooting the other tonight would lose us the game.

I am using the premise here that Truth is 100% scum, but the other person we may want dead is not–in which case I am wondering if we want to find out the one we are unsure about first, and then shooting truth in order to maximally narrow down POE and not waste what is likely your last vig shot.

no we are not lynching the claimed mason.

Just to be clear

None of us are believing either of Truth's claims, right

Nauci when you asked about either of Truths claims did you mean his Miller Mason claim and his VT claim? His VT claim makes sense to me because I can't imagine Truth having played the way he has all game and be scum that pulled this crazy mason fake claim just to last to the end. I'm open to cases on it but Idk. That + his relationship with popo just rule out a lot of my willingness to consider him scum.

I was skimming some of Truth's ISO and lean on the side of he had scum buddies to interact with and didn't fake the entiiiiire dynamic of being in a thread with other people because otherwise it is just too fucking wild for me to believe

I find it far more plausible that his scum buddies were berating him repeatedly for his mad gambit and he was talking about his "mason buddies" interactions with him as a result of this

Popopopopo stepped in to just briefly comment "we're not lynching the claim" while probably ranting at him in their PT seems reasonable to me because Truth had SO many posts taking about the others' views and based on his ability to interpret game state and mechanics, idk if he could spin all of that whole-cloth.

I don't see why that can't be right, because all of my town reads from D1 have been lynched or shot by now lol

I've only got townreads by POE at this point, because I find it so hard to believe Truth could possibly be a VT that he must be scum, and then probably NDM is my next highest suspect.

My vote on Dunnstral gave me the reaction I wanted to see, because Dunnstral has been scum a hell of a lot and reacts mostly the same way when he is pushed to the brink of lynching, so he can be a slight town lean

Okay but can someone weigh in on my view that the sheer number of posts and the content they contained from Truth claiming what his "buddies" were saying to him are so numerous and sometimes even out of Truth's character that it is much easier for me to believe that his mafia buddies were ragging on him in their PT and Truth was pretending it was a mason PT

Because I am having a very hard time believing all of those "my buddies have since explained to me why this was bad" and other posts as just a VT talking to himself

[Nauci]

@Cat Scratch Fever: what’s the case on Nauci? Her actions around the GL wagon are weird, sure. But in a very short span she votes GL, unvotes him. Later she mentions GL in 493 but also is critical of Norwegian in 494 & 496. I’m not sure scum!Nauci unvotes GL and makes 494 & 496. This seems to me like town reconsidering between the two whereas scum would’ve parked the vote and called it a day.

@Popopo: as for your read list. So I’m scummy for moving my RVS to a player I’m now reading as scum? That coincided with my catchup and not your post prodding me. Also, if you have Cat Scratch Fever as your top SR, you see how voting with Norwegian is problematic right? I hope you don’t blindly follow his votes for too much longer. Despite what Norwegian’s response was in 621, I FULLY support Looker’s 620 (not only the thing about your voting habits but also the thing about Truth too).

Disclaimer: I’m really bad at reading a bus’ing vote, but I wouldn’t consider that a bus’ing scenario for Nauci right there. I think the fact she place her vote on one side, then reconsidered it and pushed the side she had voted with is town intentions.

The way that Mavs interacted with the attempted wagon on me made me town read him back then; he could have easily not tried to push back against it at that point. Before I AFKed for way too long I had him as a solid town read, so between that and Dunn's reaction to the wagon on him I have that slot as a town lean. Did anything happen on day 2 that dramatically impacts this?

[Nauci]

Well first of all, i think it’s town to say he’s doing it for reactions. He also included a reads list afterwards which proves that point. Also i’m getting a distinct feel of his town meta from recent posts. As scum he would probably lurk hard and only pop in to say some irrelevant stuff or try to fake a different progression when he started being suspected/wagoned.

bad reasons for townreading somebody

you're literally just imagining some specific way he would play as scum and then saying because he's not doing that, he's town. How many times have you played with popopopopopopopopop scum?

GL is such a good player honestly in my top 5 site wide

[Nauci]

The other thing I don't like about popoppopoopoppopo's vote:

You previously said Nauci was "forced as fuck" and were voting her. Then she quotes one, yes ONE, post of mine she doesn't like, and votes me, and your response is to put me at L-2 with no hesitation? Did your read on Nauci change? Do you think she just decided to lolbus me cause Norway wants to play like he's some RVS god, even though I later linked a game where I opened the exact same way as town? It seems pretty dissonant to me!

VOTE: popopopopopo

This post claiming issues with my vote is leaving out the VITAL fact that I am norwe's vote slave. In doing that, he completely misrepresented my supposed reasoning for switching votes. The push feels fake and based off a misrep. Norwe was cranking the pressure up pretty hard my man guilty needed a release.

Okay so now is the time to just stop with this whole vote slave bullshit. Start voting according to actual suspicions you have and not ones that are just spoon fed to you by your vote master. It is pro-town for us to get legitimate, un-tinted reads on you, not skewed and mixed up reads because we're trying to decipher between what's your genuine read on someone vs your vote master's read. Besides, if you're openly just casting votes to build up wagon numbers then the power of a wagon on someone is weakened. We have to maintain the pressure of a wagon and not sabotage one of our tools for getting scum to out themselves. Wagon people but don't defeat your own vote's power by publicizing, "I'm just following the leader with my vote to put people under more pressure." This is a variation of the exact conversation I had with Truth in my previous 2 posts.

VOTE: popopopopopopo

He feels like he doesn't care. I also saw some reasons from tiger cat that I liked.

i mean who tf knows with this guy. He wants to nolynch, then he wants to quick lynch. Idk his alignment but certified VI

Can you actually make an effort rather than just being like "Omg Idk I just know you suck?" What would your reads be on him if he hadn't claimed mason? What are your thoughts on if he is the scum in a hood?

i owe norwe big, more than owe him im in debt to him. the reactions i am getting for this schtick also has been and will continue to be fruitful

When will you have to pick between loyalty to Norway or to this town and get off the fence? How long do you intend to continue this? We have a lot of discussion on your vote slave ordeal to discuss, now can you stop so we can get a different perspective to read you?

---~---

idk about "can't be scum with GL" since I don't bother with pre-flip associations but I want to wagon this

VOTE: Nauci

She seemed interested in figuring out popo's alignment earlier, but then this wagon on him built up to L-2

and

popo dropped a readslist and she pops in but doesn't comment on either at all.

This makes me want to iso Nauci. I'll be looking into.

---~---

Reading up p26 Norway v GL feels TvT even though I haven't been able to figure out my read on GL up until now. This interaction feels towny from GL but I still havent been able to sort out his previous 1v1 earlier on. I need to go back and re-read it to clear up some haziness I have there. I have a hard time reading GL's posts and comprehending what the point is.

---~---

Town reads are Noway and Cat Scratch right now. Norway vs GL recently gives off such strong scum hunting vibes from both sides and as an isolated argument feels TvT. I just want Noway to tell popopo to stop following his lead. I need to reread some of GL's earlier gameplay and then read through Norway vs GL with those revised lenses on. Cat has strong points and great townie questions in 537, 539, 548, 549, and 703.

Town lean to Looker as explained in 692
Town points to Quick on 521

Null on Candy shop. I started off by reading town but the lack of posts has me asking questions, particularly why is he still voting no lynch?? 442 was great questioning that sounded towny but there's been nothing since 473 and the vote is still on no lynch and that's just weird and gives me strange vibes.

Scum lean on popopo for everything at the top of this post
Scum read still on Truth for literally every post he's made

Interested in going back to reread up on Nauci and GL as I feel like there's some meat there I haven't gotten to. Struggling to keep up with y'all but doing my best.

tl;dr version: VOTE: popopopopo because I'm not down with a GL wagon until I go back and re-read, and popopo's defense has been shit basically just saying he owes Norway and he's doing it for reactions to talk about. Popopopopo can you stop being vague and irrational about when you'll stop voting with norway, and answer my questions above in response to your 555? It could very well be that you're scum trying to use this vote slave bullshit as a way to fly under everyone else's radar, and when it didn't work, the best way for you to push through a wagon on yourself is to stick to your guns and look like you've just been doing it for 1)loyalty to Norway, 2)scumhunting by getting reactions, or 3)shits and giggles all along. Pushing all this would be a great guise for scum except that you're twisted up in your own net and haven't been able to fly low.

And if that wasn't your plan, then your plan could have been to rile up all this nonsense and look so bold no one would think scum would do something so risky. Idk which way it goes, but each way I see at the moment looks messy unless you can just give us some original thoughts and original votes that aren't based on Norway and then we can get some un-tainted reads on you.

I want to give Glitch a town read for this post but all of the analysis here was stuff that had been said by other people several pages prior IIRC so I couldn't actually give those points?

I think now I can give some amount because it was a legit push on popo when there was real pressure that could have gotten him d1 lynched

[Nauci]

Glitch, Truth is definitely not making it near LYLO so why don't you just focus on everybody else for now? That's why we're ignoring it—this slot WILL be resolved eventually but it's not terribly useful to do it today no matter how many scummy posts they make.

That's why I'm shifting gears to Popo and others. That said, it doesn't make sense to me why we shouldn't discuss something just because the majority has just dismissed it for tomorrow. If there's a legitimate concern that truth is scum, Ben the scummiest thing for his scum Partners to do would be to try and just put off the Mason discussion until further notice. It's not like it hurts the town at all to talk about these things. I'm opening up my discussion and evaluations two other players because it's obvious that we are not going to get a wagon formed on truth. But I really don't like your dismissal until tomorrow. I'll come back to that in a little bit and if truth ever what's scum this conversation will be important.

I'm on my way to work and I work in a breakfast and lunch restaurant. Father's Day is generally the busiest day of the year or close second to Mother's Day. Probably won't be back on until late this evening.

Also, I feel like a Truth flip would resolve this slot to a large degree

[Nauci]

This post shouldn't come from town and overall norwee is much townier in the norwee-lion interaction.

It's funny to me that people were saying I'm not scummy because I specifically considered both sides of GL v NEE and scum would probably just take the opportunity to shade one of the two, and even after all of that discussion, NDM made this post

[Nauci]

I saw your vote but didn't realize you jumped ship on Norway. I wasn't tracking whether your votes followed Norway's, I just assumed they all were. I was focusing on breaking down and analyzing your play so far and this post I actually did miss:

@Popopo, can you tell me your actual reads now? Our contract is rescinded.

678 is shit though because there is no explanation as to why you stopped and it looks like "omg the town might lynch me if I don't stop following Norway now," but there was literally nothing added or explanation given, it was like a desperate attempt to just dodge and deflect. And if you're scum you've been planning your easy slide out of sheeping Norway to vote a nice easy one on Cat Scratch as you've planted shallow reasoning for Cat to be on your scum list since 536. Your whole argument is that CSF has more town reads and less scum reads but it's important to have solid town reads in a game too, not just SRs. Regarding my vote, I'm not opposed to your wagon. We have plenty of time to see you actually play your own thoughts out now that you've abandoned this vote slave complex.

This post makes me feel somewhat more comfortable putting Glitch in my town reads

[Nauci]

From context of this post and that they're my most recent games, I'm assuming the games you Iso'd my slot were open777 and largenomal227.
In open 777 I wasn't 'townie' and 'insightful' until day 2. Day 1 I was scumread by many players and my reads were very omgussy.
In largenormal227 I layed low and didn't do much until I lead massclaim. I definitely wasn't very goal oriented in this game.
Also, I would love to point out the use of 'so far here' as opposed to presumably looking at most of the game in the other games.

Hey NDM do these excuses still hold up now that we're at page 83

[Nauci]

Nauci's 2049 didn't clear up to me who she thinks is scum - who is she going to vote?

Are you being serious with this

[Nauci]

And she is now voting and attacking my number 1 townread because they are defending me. I think she is trying to make us all suspicious of each other.

VOTE: Blair

Please stop

Just stop

[Nauci]

What did you think about my comments on the early Glitch push to lynch popo?

[Nauci]

That's totally fair.

Question though: Do you really scumread Glitch more than NDMath? I keep feeling like NDM's wall posts were a bunch of pretty unsubstantial side comments or questions in response to bits of the game he quoted, and then announcing some reads. Like GL mentioned at the beginning, I just don't see any cohesive narratives or insight into his thought processes. I feel like I am able to follow Glitch's thought processes quite a it more in his posts. Neither seem to have the kind of real time interaction which would help me feel confident about any reads I make about them though.

Also, I keep feeling like I might have a grasp on Looker's posts but whenever I do, he says something that completely throws me for a loop (e.g., 2087).

[Nauci]

And Looker, a little. Honestly Looker is frustrating because he never interacts with anyone, he only passively interacts with the thread, reacting to events long after they've transpired. Every Looker post feels like a "catch up" post. I can't really draw any conclusions from that, though, because he always plays that way, as far as I can tell.

Can you sanity check me here that Looker saying he has no idea who I scumread right now is a sign of insanity or illiteracy

[Nauci]

I actually like CSF vs NDMath for today, so if anyone wants to help me make CSF a top-two wagon that'd be swell!

Sheep me!

I would prefer this over NDmath. I am not opposed to a lynch on NDmath but Cat Scratch would be a better choice in this event. I've been planning to come in here and make a case against Cat Scratch but haven't gotten around to it. I'll make my case here and join you on the wagon.

Candy Shop, Cat Scratch, osuka, and maybe Nauci are on my scum radar.

Why am I on your scum radar?

There was literally zero progression from scumreading popo to scumreading me.

I still have a scum lean on po but when the push against him from the group seemed to dissipate and the desire to lynch disappeared from the town, it was time to move my vote to somewhere it can be used elsewhere to do more. I also have been working through a re-read of the game the last few days and that's where my updated SRs came from. I'm a big fan of wagons and think it's lazy playing to target people because they jump on a wagon. If you jump on a wagon without giving good and solid reasons or just paraphrasing what someone else said then sure, that's fine to make you raise an eyebrow. But pressure gives results and I like to push and build wagons. And I'll give you my honest thoughts in the process. If you scum read me for it, that's fine, that just gives more data for us to eval when you push me for pushing someone else.

My case against you goes further than Blair's though. My main problem with your play is your dramatic shift in playstyle after pressure hits you.

• Page 6 - Enter Cat Scratch, short winded and little contribution. Whatever, it's early.
  
• Page 9 - Posts are all literally useless
  
• Page 11 - 274 useless
  
• Page 12 - Just lazy and useless, TvT reads osuka vs LQ
  
• Page 16 - Once again, no meat to you posts, just shallow and useless
  
• Page 20 - TR me but literally no reasons
  
• Page 21 - Your lack of substantive contribution 21 pages in is astounding
  
• Page 22 - 537 is lazy, 549 is so scummy. Just a straight up dodge and push back on popo for his vote on you
  
• Page 23 - popo announces you as his top SR and calls you on your trash ISO as listed above, then a noticeable change in playstyle begins. Uptick in posting and content begins as seen in the rest of 23, which is partially because you're discussing this with popo and answering reads on you, but this is maintained throughout the rest of the game.
  
• Page 25 - You suddenly have stopped spamming shallow questions and coasting content as you did up to p23 and then jump to Nauci. Scummy. Play lazy all game, pressure is on you, flip over to Nauci with mediocre reasoning at best (609)
  
• Page 29 - You defend your Nauci push with a weak ass argument, no quotes, no supports, just saying she doesn't think hard enough but you'd like to see where she ends up (scum wishy washiness, leaving yourself an easy out or an easy way to stay on her)

TL;DR version:
23 pages of lazy and non-contributive posts until you're called out, at which point you ramp up your post volume and make a weak shift from voting the guy who is SR'ing you to a weak argument for Nauci.

Did you ramp up your posts because you realized that you couldn't fly under the radar as silent anymore once popo called you on it? Your change to Nauci feels like crap just trying to get po to not be so laser focused in on you, so you jump to Nauci when you don't even have that solid of an argument there.

VOTE: Cat Scratch Fever

I'd be okay with NDmath but honestly CSF is much scummier when you look back over the progression of the game.

Why does lazy = Scum tho?

If your goal is to fly under the radar and not draw attention, hoping to just wait the day out until others can devour each other, then vague contribution with little commitment and very low content that doesn't help us to get anywhere helps accomplish that goal. Once he was called on that, everything changed. Looks like scum trying to lie low and then when caught is like "oh shit let me immediately unvote the person who is SR'ing me and move my vote to someone who I don't even have a good case for."

It felt like 1090 was a decent push/case that sounded towny, but after I saw 1095, I remembered that CSF had specifically prod dodged and was low activity but said it was because her SO broke their foot and they were really busy IRL. I normally wouldn't have taken this as that alarming because CSF wasn't posting much even before that happened, but it could be another data point for "bad faith" pushing.

[Nauci]

The trouble is, Truth is either scum or flashing-neon-light-wagon-bait. I really don't want him in LyLo (or whatever we're calling it now) for that reason. So it's really important that we either eliminate Truth today, or eliminate scum today so I can eliminate Truth tonight without rolling the dice on the entire game in the process.

I think that flipping Truth would give me a lot more to work with WRT Glitch, but I'm not sure if that illuminates anyone else (from your perspective it probably sheds light on me though).

[Nauci]

I get the sense that he doesn't go after GuiltyLion if he were scum.

I think he's being scumread for largely NAI reasons (NAI for him), like forgetting to use his vote. He also generally seems to be a lynchbaity type of player who gets mislynched a lot

Didn't quote the whole thing because it was a very large quote post but CSF is giving me pause here WRT NDMath and I'll give it a little more benefit of the doubt based on those mislynches

IDK why quoting removes links

[Nauci]

I don't understand what you guys mean when you say flipping truth helps us figure out Glitch/Nauci

I'm the only one who said that fwiw

I just feel like Glitch's interactions and posts about Truth would be a lot more AI if I knew what alignment Truth actually is

I similarly have stronger interactions w/ Truth than other players here just from today

[Nauci]

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

Man I'm bummed I wasn't around to see people sheep my case in real time

[Nauci]

The extra dot isn't a crumb. Don't let mafia tell you that weird things are the crumb for my mason buddies. My crumb or crumbs will be very obvious and my buddies helped me make them. There shouldn't be any doubt which ones are the real ones after I die. Hopefully!

So many brilliant players in this game but it still managed to be a 1:1 ratio to crazy lmao

[Nauci]

how the fuck is mafia supposed to know you're mason? mafia has no setup knowledge other than their own roles

you seem to gravely misunderstand some very core concepts of this game

If he is in fact a mason, it's pretty natural to assume that mafia would know he's town and therefore likely not lying about being a

mason

of all things

I still like the Osuka vote, none of his latest bursts of post felt all that town and this one was really bad shade-for-sake-of-shade

Do you think osuka could be making sure I'm actually a mason and not lying in that post? Like he's mafia and wants to kill me if I'm a mason but wants to keep questioning me just to make sure. I think this another reason to think he is mafia.

This is such a dense post that it hurts

I think hypotheticals are a little too much for you to handle right now, so for the first part of the post assume I’m town and for the second, assume I’m scum.

Let’s start with town. How am I lying in that post? What am I trying to accomplish? Why am I doing any of what I’m doing in that post?

Now, assume I’m scum. How am I not lying in that post? If I wanted to kill you, why wouldn’t I just do it since you keep claiming mason anyway? If I

did

want to make sure you’re mason, how is that post supposed to accomplish that? Why would I “keep questioning to make sure” when I know for a fact that that line of questioning has diminishing returns (i.e., we’re all as sure as we’re gonna be about your claim, however sure that is, until someone else claims mason or we get a revealing flip, neither of which is going to happen d1) and I’d only be exposing myself for no reason?

You seem to have a very shallow understanding or how scum plays the game

You said it yourself. You said mafia don't know I'm mason which would mean you're thinking about how mafia might think I'm a lying neighbour or something. It sounds to me that you are that mafia that thinks I might be lying which is why you continue to push and question me. If you think there's no point right now then why do you keep falling back to me?

Christ we should have PLed this

[Nauci]

Slogging through all of Quick's stupid arguments w/ people is exhauuuuusting

[Nauci]

Mother of god I'm not reading 1276 and none of you can make me

[Nauci]

B.) It's pretty much impossible to draw conclusions about Nauci from Day 2.

Not game-related ones at least

[Nauci]

Osuka why are you not voting?

VOTE: csf

happy?

I think I have a dilemma: The people I "townread" (for lack of a better term) most all have cats in their avatar (Nauci, CSF, Truth). And the person I want to lynch most (GuiltyLion) has a

fake

cat in his avatar. Am I biased toward cats?

how did this not get voted on d1

[Nauci]

Should we hammer osuka now? I would like to get to the next day.

Reminder for doctors to protect me please!

do you see this shit? this is a scumpost

there is a wagon most people are happy with on L-1 and there are days until deadline AND there is a very active discussion happening around said wagon. If this is not a very deliberate attempt at ending discussion early, i don't know what is

ok but does scum truth really claim mason miller in his first post? why?

do you think he is scum, but in a hood, and just claimed mason instead of hood for some reason?

or do you think there is no hood at all, and he is just scum making a gambit that will get him lynched as soon as we mass claim?

furthermore, do you really think truth, who is a new player, tries an audacious fakeclaim like this in his first post of the game?

HMMMM

[Nauci]

I am trying hard to follow and understand the push against osuka, for real, but it's just not clicking with me. I've had him null for so long and still going through his iso there's so many things that pull me both directions I just have such a null read on him. His lack of voting is sketch at best, and yet these posts are spot on:

The only noteworthy read of Osuka right now is CSF!Scum. And he's basically done nothing to convince us of it other than say "he be playing scummy". And saying scum is on his wagon. (no indication of who though)

i honestly don't know for sure who exactly is scum on the wagon, but i can tell you for a fact that it either started with scum motivation, or was put into overdrive by scum. As previously pointed out by someone other than me, wagons rarely pick up this quickly and sustain themselves for this long without some scum motivation

Should we hammer osuka now? I would like to get to the next day.

Reminder for doctors to protect me please!

do you see this shit? this is a scumpost

there is a wagon most people are happy with on L-1 and there are days until deadline AND there is a very active discussion happening around said wagon. If this is not a very deliberate attempt at ending discussion early, i don't know what is

I don't think there's enough valid content from osuka to make a definite judgement that he is scum, while there is even more reason now to suspect Cat Scratch. Can we break down CSF's progression on osuka?

Spoiler: Cat Scratch Fever on osuka

lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

I'm townreading Norway and I think osuka is townish. Still think Quick is prob town but he seems to have trouble getting his point across

VOTE: guiltylion

I think Quick and Osuka are TvT right now, and this back and forth is rapidly growing tiring to follow. Why don't we all hug it out and vote GuiltyLion or something

Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Holy shit

So here there is a push for more votes on guilty. He's never called guilty even scummy tho? But he's voted for him and called for others to vote him.

Uh yeah, I saw a shitshow of what I thought was TvT and did not want Osuka and Quick to continue arguing back and forth with each other and instead combine our votes to form a pressure wagon on someone who was conspicuously missing.

Then he votes for me, with no explanation of either his original guilty read or his new vote on me. He provided a reason for the vote on me when I pressed him.

If you want an explanation, you can just ask instead of making assumptions. Is this a newbie game where we scumread people for not explaining things?

I thought Guilty's meta defense of himself was convincing enough. His posting rate is higher as town than scum, and his contributions here pushed me to think he's town.

As of page 35, I don't scumread Nauci anymore

holy shit haha

and

I

thought i was late to this game

?

I was effectively inactive from this game for the last few days and was catching up

this is a completely meaningless post

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

UNVOTE:

I would like time to think if scum!osuka would go all-in on Truth here before he claims

and also there's like 3 people who haven't said anything about the osuka wagon lately

Let's break each quote down.

• 221 - Early game towered on osuka
  
• 276 - Reads the Quick v Osuka fight as TvT
  
• 280 - osuka is Towny independent of the Quick v Osuka fight,
  AND
  is Towny because he’s TvT,
  AND
  on top of that he is gut reading osuka as town
  
• 562 - Reaffirms TvT read on osuka/Quick
  
• Absolutely nothing
  from CSF regarding osuka for the next 500+ posts
  
• 1107 - osuka throws a little shade in Cat’s direction
  
• 1118 - osuka throws more shade at Cat
  
• 1147 -
  Cat Scratch out of the blue votes for osuka
  openly sheeping Nauci and for not using his vote.
  
• 1425 - Unvotes when the wagon gets serious and there’s an actual chance of lynching osuka.

This reads as shit. Clear TR on osuka while it's easy up to halfway through the game, then drop off and say nothing about him. Let a long time pass and then as soon as osuka pushes even a little bit on you, you vote against him for bs reasons. That's some scummy shit setting yourself up to be able to say, "Well I had good reasons, Nauci just said them already," but that's just an easy excuse not to make your own case or bring original content or reasoning to the table. Why we would lynch osuka who is confusing AF as opposed to CSF who is clearly scum doesn't make sense to me.

Additionally, I think osuka makes a strong, pro-town point in the second quote at the top (1411). Earlier in the thread there was a discussion on why it's pro-town

not

to use all of our time, and I think I read a counter argument that it is pro-town to use the time if we have it. Muddying up the waters with tons of posts that make it hard for us to go back and read is not a solid argument, though, for ending a day early. The way I see it you have two options that determine whether or not ending the day early is pro-town or not.

First, if the discussion is dragging out, dying, and stalled... then yes, it is pro-town to end the day and keep things moving. If town is not in the drivers seat and no one is driving at all it gives scum an opportunity to take the reigns and control the conversation, spam up the thread, and wait it out until the end of the day when everyone panic-votes themselves into a mislynch. Second scenario, discussion is alive and active with strong content being produced and active gameplay dominated every RL day. This creates an difficult environment for the scum to survive, because they're forced to participate in the open or be suspected for trying to coast under the radar. It gives us more opportunity to evaluate our options and avoid a mislynch. For example, hypothetically I'm thinking if so many are on board with an osuka lynch (one that isn't totally solid), then it is

pro-mafia

to try and end the day early rather than giving everyone time to sort through this case and giving osuka a chance to explain. It is pro-town to take more time to let the scum hang their own noose, like I have clearly set out above with Cat Scratch's cheap shift onto osuka that we would not have had a chance to dive into had we ended the day early.

So it's not a hard-and-fast rule that ending the day early is pro-town. It is pro-town to let the day go on until we are confident in a scum lynch, and if that means it takes a long time, that's fine. If we get to that point sooner rather than later and there's not much more to talk about, then end the day early and get to business. But the latter is not the case in our game. If it creates more content for us to sift through and makes our job harder because we have to do more reading, then man up and just deal with it. You have more stuff to evaluate. That's a good thing. Maybe this is just a longer game that takes more time than a normal one. Don't be lazy, work hard to find the right lynch.

Vote stays on CSF and I'd encourage y'all to move your votes too.

This post feels pretty towny to me

I mean, I've seen scum be against the lynch last minute for town cred, but never to this degree of effort and explaining their train of thought so clearly

[Nauci]

the fact that you didnt engage my slot for 500 posts means that either your read on me is fabricated, or you had a scumread on me that you literally never thought to discuss with town. I find the second one much more difficult to believe

Wow Osuka, never even considering the concept that I just cased you so well that everyone simply had to agree

(FR though, the way that the wagon built up after I went V/LA was suuuuuuusss)

[Nauci]

I think you will find it difficult to demonstrate from my ISO that I am advocating for shortening the day.

I am advocating for narrowing our lynch pool and rolling our sleeves up to get serious about who we are going to lynch today, because these things take time and it's usually good practice for town to have a pretty good idea of who the lynch will be between by this point in the day.

Blair I thought you would know by now that we don't engage with Quick, we just sort him by his crackpot theories and pat him on the head

There is only one situation: The game.

Norwe suggested the situation was that it was time to settle on something.

Given that no one was calling for his head for saying so, I accepted his assessment.

P-edit: I see he's still going. For anyone who thinks I'm being petty here, please review the Blair/Quick ISO from the time I subbed in. Quick has been throwing shade at me (not just game-related, "maybe this is scummy" shade - actual personal shade) persistently - even when I'm having unrelated conversations with other players, he's still taking pot-shots at me. It's tiring.

Don't say I didn't try

[Nauci]

Do you think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you here?

You have some gall to ask this question when your entire game has been lackluster and full of fluff. Do

you

think you've done enough such that a reasonable town player should be townreading you? What are you top pro-town moves in this game? Sheeping onto wagons with no thoughts of your own?

This is some whataboutism bs

whether or not you think that CSF has been posting well has no bearing on CSF's question to Osuka

[Nauci]

I think I'm town because:
- I try to understand people's thought processes. If I were scum, why would I bother engaging osuka in this scenario? osuka was at L-1 and multiple people had stated they were ready to end the day.
--- do you think I'm engaging people in good faith?

- I actually have real-time interactions instead of just posting in thread and ducking out
--- My stances are clear, and if you need them explained, I can explain them to you without having to think for a long time like I do as scum

- I take the time to look at people's past games like GL, popo and NDMath

- I don't care how I look, e.g. by putting popo to L-2.

I disagree that I'm a fluffposter. Maybe this was true early game or even mid game, but by now, I think I've posted enough readable content.

My meta is available for everyone to see. I even alt slipped

1. Engaging osuka:

If you were town, you'd do it because you were scum hunting. If you were scum, you'd engage osuka because scum's job is to be undetected and when osuka flips town you'll be able to point back to this and say, "Look how town I was, I was really trying to figure out if he was scum and I was just wrong." There's a motivation both ways so your first point is NAI.

2. Good faith:

I appreciate your level head and how you have been respectful, calm, and chill this entire game treating people fairly. Your lack of enthusiasm and emotion in your pushes aren't a towntell though.

3. Real time interactions instead of post and run:

fair point, I'll give you this one.

4. Clear stances you can clarify:

"Details available upon request" is still hella scummy to me. It's an easy way to coast through the game as scum only having to take a stand when asked to, rather than being willing to push the envelope like a true townie would.

5. You read meta:

cool story, not all of us have that much time and your life giving you the time to do that is NAI

6. You don't care how bad you look:

this is an easy argument to make as scum when you've messed up and done something stupid, and then you're like, "Oh look at me, I don't care how bad I look, I'm a townie!" LAMIST and NAI

So really the only valid point I'm taking away from this is #3. Depending on the player, I would read that as NAI as well because scum could make the same argument that they're engaging in real time interactions and that makes them look towny. Sure they're under more pressure but good scum should be able to do that. The reason I'm giving you some leeway is that your playstyle doesn't seem to fit with scum playing real time and being under all that pressure unless you're good at conning people, which you could be but it would be a little bit of a stretch in my mind.

I'm still willing to make that stretch because of the rest of the points I've made in my case against you though. I don't read anyone as scummy as I do you even when I take your point #3 into consideration. It's a stretch I'm willing to make and risk because literally everything else points to you as scum.

wow this post was awful

It reads to me like:

-NAI behavior, I'm going to choose to scum read you for it

-NAI behavior, but I'm still going to scum read you for it

-Okay, that one is towny, true

-I'm too lazy for meta diving so no points for you

-NAI, I'm going to assume it's scummy

Anyway a good scum player can fake that one towney thing so I think you're scummy

[Nauci]

Talking to you is like talking to a tree.

Trees are far more pleasant to talk at

[Nauci]

I have a guilty on Popopo. Happy?

Why do TPR keep letting Quick do this

[Nauci]

vigilante shooting town n1, seems about right

[Nauci]

Even as a bus to endgame?

How the fuck does fake claiming a TPR get scum to end game what the fuck

[Nauci]

Ok.

Popopo Vig Tonight: Truth

VOTE: NDMath

That should clear up quite a few things I think?

Extremely wish we had gone with this plan

[Nauci]

i think one of looker dunnstral or ndmath is scum, maybe 2. like the fact that both those major wagons were on town and it took that long for either of them to go through points to an inactive scumteam.

Hmm would caught scum name his teammates here for WIFOM

[Nauci]

Because I am town, Blair! Please don't shoot me if you're the vigilante.

Does my buddy really need to prove this to be the case?

Dunnstral's plan where we let the vigilante shoot po if he's lying seems like a good idea.

But who else should be lynch today instead? osuka and po were my main suspects.

um

[Nauci]

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

How much longer can Blair live before you start to suspect her?

---

• I think Nauci is noncommittal.
  
• I feel she's pseudo-distancing with Truth - she says she thinks he's scum, but she doesn't look like she's trying to flip him. She looks like she's hedging her bets on no one forming a wagon on him. If they do, she gets to jump on, saying "Well I suspected him the whole time".
  
• Blair's lying - I interact with everybody. Not everyone squats over their phone all day, looking at a fucking mafia thread. I don't know what these expectations are that I'm not meeting.
  
• I'd hope Nauci saying I'm either crazy or stupid would be beneath her.
  
• So Blair thinks I avoided mislynching Osuka, but bussed popopo?
  • And, depending on who she "vigged", she agreed with either my or Glitch's suspicions. I suspected GuiltyLion, Glitch suspected Cat Scratch Fever. The double standard isn't making sense to me.
• I question whether Nauci coached Truth in the scum PT, because her Post 2112 resembles Truth's Post 619, where he urged other people to start bandwagons that he was not going to be a part of.

Literally 100% of this post is insane

[Nauci]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Then we should go back to the lynching Dunnstral plan. I did not know Blair was the vigilante so I find it cool I managed to predict it.

I fucking can't with this game

[Nauci]

Because I am town, Blair! Please don't shoot me if you're the vigilante. Does my buddy really need to prove this to be the case?

If you truly are a mason you would not out your buddy for the scum to see who that buddy is, giving them an additional target, unless you needed to do it to avoid being lynched, and right now you aren't being threatened to be lynched. You are being threatened to be shot by popo, the

supposed

vigilante.

But you believe popo is scum. If you actually believe this then why are you worried that popo will shoot you at night as the vig? If po is either vig or scum, he could have killed you last night and didn't. If you were truly were a mason, and truly believed popo is scum, you would not even think of outing your buddy when the town wants vig!popo to shoot at you... because you don't believe popo is the vig.

So which is it? Do you believe popo is scum, which you have believed for a very, very long time? Or did his vig claim change your read on him?

I really don't think Glitch and Truth could be scum together

[Nauci]

That's a lot of questions, Glitch. I'll try answering the one about if I think po is mafia.

I think po is most likely mafia but he may be town. If he is town, then it would be really bad if he shot me with his vigilante. That is why I asked the vigilante whoever they are not to shoot me.

Blair ignored my question and I don't like this. I think mafia sometimes dodge questions that are hard to answer.

This post plus 2129 make me feel like the post I quoted before was more likely to be a scum slip than not

[Nauci]

If there’s a real vig i suggest thwm to just claim right now. It’s better to lynch than shoot a scum. Shot’s can be interferred with. Lynches are eternal.

This was fucking dumb

- the spirit of Osuka

[Nauci]

No one wanted to follow my plan, so here we are.

Dunnstral and I did, did we not?

[Nauci]

You know, if you didn't come across so pompous and self centered all the time my reasons for SRing you every game would probably go down drastically.

[Nauci]

So you are very good at scum Quick? Noted.

I'm not pompous for one. Self centered, maybe, but I don't act like I am better than other people.

thank you quick, the only reasonable logical player right now it seems

I might have an aneurysm from the dumb but at least I got an ab workout from the hilarity

[Nauci]

Or is it just that you think Blair is a better player than me so I don't really deserve to say what I am saying?

so

close

[Nauci]

I didn't get the memo about the recent rule change. I will make the necessary adaptations.

I totally missed this since I've not been active but I had been wondering about it for a week and am really happy to see that it was already implemented

awesome work site team

[Nauci]

Okay I haven't read all of the wall posts from Day 3 but I've read from page 1 to the end of day 2 and I still feel like Truth & NDMath are the remaining scum

I think that popopopopopopo quickly self hammered because was protecting NDMath from having to un-AFK and come up with a plausible reaction to the hot mess without self-incriminating, and/or Truth from saying more self-incriminating ridiculousness.

I thought that the one Glitch post I quoted about CSF felt really scummy and agenda-pushing, but I thought that the rest of their posts (through the end of day 2) were town thought processes, including trying to stop the Osuka lynch. The weird agenda-y post may have just been town tunneling then?

While it gave me pause that Truth voted popo at the beginning of day 2, he back pedaled so hard that he couldn't even come up w/ an alternative other than

no kill

? I found it plausible that he thought he'd open up with some distancing but as the day went on he'd find other targets like he did on day 1, but obviously NEE shut that plan down. The post about asking Blair not to shoot him basically was just plain wild, and his post just now is ???????? I have developed an actual headache from trying to fathom how a Vanilla Town Truth could possibly have conjured up the series of posts in his ISO, while it is marginally plausible that scum!Truth being entirely lost at all times could have made these posts.

If truth by some bizarre chance flipped green I'd reconsider Glitch, but for now I TR Blair (duh), Dunnstral (because mavs posts were very towny to me, even if I've not seen scum!mavs), and Glitch. I'll finish the last 10 pages tonight (and then vote)

[Nauci]

VOTE: Truth

[Nauci]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Then we should go back to the lynching Dunnstral plan. I did not know Blair was the vigilante so I find it cool I managed to predict it.

Uh... you're lying though, you did know at this point:

My paranoid suspect read is Blair. If she's a mafia vigilante, we will keep trusting her and she can just get ignored of all suspicions,

Even if it's unusual, could it not still show up sometimes, Dunnstral? When is the last time people here played with a mafia vigilante?

VOTE: Truth

I legitimately cannot figure out if he meant that he didn't know it as of 10 minutes ago, or he didn't know that at the time of the post I quoted from him

[Nauci]

I extremely wish you had shot Looker because he has fully dissociated from reality and it's actually impossible to read him

At least I can get a decent read on Quick from his egomaniacal ramblings

[Nauci]

Please counterclaim. It would make today so much easier.

I wanted to town read him for being so convinced that there's a role that cannot exist because maybe it means he doesn't have the kind of extra info that scum does, but maybe he's as dissociated from scum chat as he is from this thread

Anyway, I really think we need to flip Truth today and I really do think he's scum

[Nauci]

If Truth

is

mafia, his partner is probably Looker anyway - given that Looker was the only person we were still waiting to hear confirmation from (everyone else had said they weren't Masons with Truth) when Truth changed his tune and admitted he wasn't a Mason.

Looker was pretty pointedly avoiding answering that question.

It makes sense to me that, if Truth is scum, they were debating whether or not to claim masons together (Truth's plan), Looker was stalling, and finally put his foot down and said Truth was on his own to dig out of this hole - then Truth revealed his lie.

So either way, I think Looker is a good choice today.

This feels like an even shakier theory than mine

[Nauci]

It could be just as easy to believe that Truth came "clean" about his gambit because he knew Looker wasn't in a mason or scum channel with him and therefore obviously wouldn't claim with him

[Nauci]

Glitch, he'd have to ignore the existence of my 2140 as well in order to frame my vote for Truth the way he did

[Nauci]

If that's your theory, why aren't you voting Looker?

[Nauci]

Popo's posts about uncleared players.

Truth: Says to not hang yet, and 1419 shows some foreshadowing of "if he changes his claim", which is interesting.
Nauci: Pinged him early on, transitioned into null to townlean.
Looker: Asks for reads, townleans the slot, then pretty much forgets about Looker.
Dunn: scumleans the slot and groups him in lurkers.
Glitch: Complains about Glitch scumreading his vote slaving and that's it.
ND: Went from ND doesn't exist to heavy scumread quite a ways before he was forced to claim.


It supports Blair's proposed scumteam.
Dunnstral looks the best but not by much.
UNVOTE: dunnstral

Can you explain your reasoning for how you evaluated Popopo's interactions with others as being alignment indicative in any particular direction?

[Nauci]

Hey so

Can we talk about how NDMath's posting this entire game is literally so scummy that I cannot believe he's still alive?

There's not a single shred of consistent narrative, deep thought, and genuinely town-perspective posting in that ISO, and every post at this point feels like he's got a timer on his phone for when he's due to be prodded and will come in to drop something that ever, ever so slightly resembles effort.

I've seen more effort to scum hunt and figure out the game from Looker, who has apparently just been reading an entirely different game than the rest of us, than from NDMath's posts.

[Nauci]

I feel like the only thing that has been in my column for town!NDM are the interactions w/ popopo, but none of the interactions were ever particularly strong or telling.

[Nauci]

I'm eyeing 2165

it comes after Blair starts pushing a Truth + Looker team

What did you surmise from all of your eyeing

[Nauci]

Damnit Blair

I channeled with all of my spiritual might to send you the message SHOOT TRUTH GODDAMNIT last night

Anyway VOTE: Truth

Everything about that hammer was just the most blatantly scummy thing I've seen in the history of this game

Looker at this point it's not even bizarre to me that you are FOSing the least suspicious person in the game

It's absolutely garbage that just as I had stirred up conversation that was properly going to help sort people, Truth came in with the hammer as soon as the heat was off of him or his partner.

Anyway I think it's mass claim time if I'm to believe Looker's post

[Nauci]

I feel really bad that this has a good chance of being my first loss as town (at least in like a dozen games) and it's simply my fault for being absent for so long

[Nauci]

I hope you are mafia or we will most likely lose now.

How on Earth does that make sense to you?

You know I'm town. If you want to convince me you're not mafia why don't you explain your garbage scummy quickhammer?

[Nauci]

UNVOTE: Truth

Goddamnit they're both scum aren't they

[Nauci]

Of course one or both were scum PR

Ugh I am dumb for incorrectly interpreting Looker's post I'm sorry town, as the last sane person in the game

Also have I really only seen scumstral? How do you always replace into scum?

Well played, Mavs

[Nauci]

I had been F5ing the thread repeatedly to unvote in time but I was downstairs and mobile posting for all of 3 minutes RIP

[Nauci]

We would have been in so much trouble if Nauci had made it in time.

I agree that that was an absolutely excellent use of a One-Shot Watcher role. Looker saw me performing a night action on Blair which totally messed up my claim strategy. That was going to be really rough. Very well played. I had set myself up to claim even night loyal doctor with a few posts on previous days softclaiming. Nauci picked up on one of them and mentioned that I was oddly confident in my statement. I was ready to make my claim and Looked messed it all up. Well done

I blame my bf for asking me to go downstairs

[Nauci]

Nauci almost got the unvote off too

And yes, I always replace in as scum

Honestly the statistics of your scumreplacements at this point are entirely past the statistical norm

[Nauci]

Nauci almost got the unvote off too

And yes, I always replace in as scum

Honestly the statistics of your scumreplacements at this point are entirely past the statistical norm

Maybe it speaks to the replacement rate of scum players vs town players

While it does in part, every game where there have been multiple replacements, you landed the scum slot out of all of them for the games I was in

[Nauci]

I feel like I should just retire after this game

What's even the point if I can't be undefeated as town ಥ_ಥ

[Nauci]

VOTE: Dunnstral

who's seeing what I'm seeing

Nauci, was this post you realizing me and Dunnstral were a scum team? That's how I read it but I've been curious.

Dunnstral was posting in the classic Dunnstral scum style at the time—shallow thoughts, quick, opportunistic bandwagoning on other players' suspicions, never really holding any view for more than a few pages

Unfortunately this is one of the few games where I tunneled HARD on someone because I just couldn't mentally process the concept that Truth would have post everything in his ISO as a VT (...and I still can't).

[Nauci]

Town usually succumbs to paranoia.

I think you may have benefitted a degree from the Gambler's Fallacy with Nauci and I, Dunnstral.

Honestly what are the statistics of Dunnstral reliably replacing into scum slots every time, even though way town slots request replacement than scum in the same games?

Dunn, are you straight up requesting scum slots at this point

Going to have to just PL you in the future

Also my early game is always way better than my late game. I don't make it to late game often. I was like 1-3 or so as scum and at least 13-1 as town before this QQ

[Nauci]

I had a scum read on Glitch on day 1 because everything was technically correct in the posts, but they always happened IRL-days or several pages after everyone else had the thoughts. Later on in the game though I felt like I was just desperately hoping the sane players are town ;_;

[Nauci]

Someone called me on my first wall being IIoA

Hey that was me