Open 786 | Dream Mafia | Cult Win!

[iamausername]

liking Jackson for town, first of all, their willingness to wade through Korina's mountain of bullshit and actually try to ascertain alignment from it is good stuff, and secondly i think cult who thinks someone is softclaiming probably doesn't call attention to it in the way that they did.

don't like Doctor Drew making a post to say "i'm totally not cult you guys" and nothing else.

Battle Mage jumping to full willingness to yeet Korina when fully 1/3 of the playerlist hadn't made a single post, on top of "Korina is probably cultist not CL, but actually he might be CL", in 127 is worse. the first half of that is entirely reasonable, the second half feels like hedging his bets in case town consensus is that we should aim for the leader.

VOTE: Battle Mage

[iamausername]

slightly premature to say I was fully willing to elim Korina at that stage,

As such, I think I'm fine with lynching Korina today

?

although having given some more thought, I am!

!

[iamausername]

blah blah blah

This is a good point.

is it? did you read those games? what did you find out from them?

[iamausername]

Did you even look at the games I linked? And if you did, do tell us what you got out of them.

no i absolutely did not and have no intention of doing so thanks

[iamausername]

i didn’t quote Korina’s self-meta post and call it a “good point”

[iamausername]

Korina and Battle Mage share a desperate desire to make this game all about Korina

i prefer to acknowledge that there are eight other players in the game, one of whom still hasn't made a single post

[iamausername]

i didn’t quote Korina’s self-meta post and call it a “good point”

Yet you don’t even read their meta

my god how are you still not getting this

JESUS CHRIST. SAID KORINA'S SELF META IS A GOOD POINT. THAT IS WHY I ASKED HIM. AND NOBODY ELSE. IF HE ACTUALLY READ IT.

it is not hypocritical for me, who has not and will not suggest that Korina's self-meta post is anything other than a tiresome waste of space, to question somebody else about their response to it. i have no interest in Korina's meta. that is not why i asked about it. i am trying to gain an insight into the mind of our lord and savior. that is why i asked about it.

now, how is it that you are happy to vote for the same person as me when you apparently think i'm CL?

[iamausername]

VOTE: Jesus Christ

i think we should start something here and see if we can persuade him to, like, answer questions, or give reads, or do anything at all besides throwing darts at the game and saying whatever post they land on is a good post

[iamausername]

make good posts, Jesus

[iamausername]

nailed that pagetop

[iamausername]

Jesus, who do you think is cult?

[iamausername]

uh... you can’t hammer someone if you’re already voting them, Jesus.

now, talk us through why you don’t think Korina is cult. is that also based on a total failure to understand the game state?

[iamausername]

I also rally don't like how his activity fell off of a cliff once he got his second and third votes on him.

i don't think the votes on him are what caused BM to vanish, it's because he was expecting Korina to spew some more self-obsessed nonsense in the thread that he could weave into a tapestry of 'look at me, i'm a totally tunnel-visioned townie'. that's the role he decided to play, so when the target of his tunnel just up and disappeared, he just didn't know what to do.

once again, i did not ask Jesus about Korina's meta because i give a shit about Korina's meta. but if Jesus is using that as his sole reason to declare Korina to be town, i think it's reasonable to ask him to justify that. especially now that we know how incredibly flawed his basis for his other town reads is.

basically, i asked if he has read the games Korina linked because

i don't believe he has

, not because i actually wanted to talk about them.

if it weren't for pending replacements, i would happily return my vote to Battle Mage and put him at L-1 right now. spicer has some extremely wrong-headed thoughts on who his partner is, but is otherwise making good points.

[iamausername]

i don’t think Battle Mage is Cult Leader, his attempt to make all discussion in the thread about Korina makes more sense as the other cultist trying to keep attention off his leader, who is probably laying low. Jesus fits the bill best imo, but could also easily be Doctor Drew, which is a slot we really need more content from, so hopefully a replacement happens soon.

obviously, hitting the leader is optimal, but i’m happy enough with a cultist yeet that i will happily vote for BM once the Drew slot actually exists in this game

[iamausername]

yes, i understand the setup. i’m just not arrogant enough to assume that my reads are 100% correct, or that i will definitely be able to persuade the town to pursue them even if they are. i am voting for the person i think is most likely cult leader right now, but town consensus seems to be BM as the yeet of the day, and given that i think he is the most likely player in the game to flip cult of some kind, i’m very much ok with this.

it’s a team game. sometimes you have to make compromises. and since flipping cultist today gives better odds of hitting cult leader tomorrow than flipping a town player would, this is a perfectly fine compromise.

[iamausername]

Sure if we were almost certain someone was cultist and exactly cultist we would get them still over the uncertainty of someone else being CL or town if town is more likely

OH REALLY

[iamausername]

i am voting for the person i think is most likely cult leader right now

So whom you thinking is CL?

This one here bud.

Just so you don’t miss it for a second time I decided to carry it a page over.
YW Username.

this game is a nightmare

[iamausername]

nah, that's Jesus.

Logic genuinely believes all of the nonsense he spouts, i think.

[iamausername]

Your scum based upon that fact until you answer my question.

i know this is a cult game but that's not how it works. answering questions does not change alignments.

i didn't refuse to answer your question. i highlighted the part of my post that you quoted in which the answer to your question can be found.
then i replied to Ythan's post to observe that Jesus is just pretending to look for scum.

the answer to your question is very easily inferred from either of these posts.

This is a good point that is stronger than my reason for townreading Battle Mage, they should definitely be the hang today

A one game meta anecdote turns you from townread to definite d1 lynch?

this is a point that is in danger of being overlooked. Jesus suddenly turning on Battle Mage at this moment, in this way, is absolutely scummy as hell. let's not forget that his original reason for calling BM town was "he could've hammered Korina at L-1 but didn't", a factually incorrect statement, given that BM was already voting Korina at the time. this factual inaccuracy being pointed out doesn't dissuade him from that read, but then a single vague meta case does? this is clearly fake.

[iamausername]

How do you know I still had that read after the factual inaccuracy was pointed out?

alright, i changed my mind. Jesus is actually playing some 4D chess and i'm here for it.

VOTE: Doctor Drew?
i don't know. still think Battle Mage is most likely cultist, and nobody else really fits as his leader. maybe i should just vote BM. someone put him to L-1 so i can hammer. at least that way the mods only have to subject one more replacement to this hell game.

just lol if i'm right and we've been playing with only townies for a week

[iamausername]

well that long ass Hiraki post doesn't make me any less inclined to believe that his slot is the cult leader that's for damn sure

[iamausername]

well that long ass Hiraki post doesn't make me any less inclined to believe that his slot is the cult leader that's for damn sure

Was there nothing in that post that warranted a direct response?

i mean i guess i can directly respond to this completely asinine question sure

Korina and Battle Mage share a desperate desire to make this game all about Korina

i prefer to acknowledge that there are eight other players in the game, one of whom still hasn't made a single post

Okay??? Can they not have a discussion???

nothing that either of those players posted could possibly be described as a 'discussion'.
Korina's entire posting oeuvre consisted of shouting "EVERYBODY LOOK AT ME I'M KORINA I'M SO COOL" over and over and over.
Battle Mage declared that this made Korina scum and tried to aggressively shut down any attempt anyone made to post anything in the thread that wasn't about how Korina was scum.

so, as i said, Korina and Battle Mage shared a desperate desire to make the game all about Korina. i believe that this stemmed from narcissism and a scum role PM, respectively.

[iamausername]

well that long ass Hiraki post doesn't make me any less inclined to believe that his slot is the cult leader that's for damn sure

Was there nothing in that post that warranted a direct response?

Would require him to read it first! And not get off the Jesus wagon for "4D chess"!

why would directly responding to your post require me to not get off the Jesus wagon
do you think you have made such a convincing case against Jesus that it would reach back in time and retroactively stop me from townreading him
because i have some bad news for you there

[iamausername]

so you're saying Jesus is cult leader and i'm cultist? that's what you're going with?

you think there was a perfectly viable Battle Mage wagon going on, that i was a part of, and then i just randomly decided to bus my cult leader instead?

[iamausername]

what does that even mean

[iamausername]

oh, 'never went over to the BM wagon'. right.

you're saying i'm scummy for unvoting BM and voting Jesus instead, but you're also saying that BM is town and Jesus is CL. are these two positions not entirely mutually exclusive?

[iamausername]

where did i ever suggest that you weren't saying BM is town

the fact that you're saying BM is town is the issue

the thing you are saying i'm scummy for doing is only scummy is BM is not town

this is my whole point

[iamausername]

let me remind you of the sequence of events:

i voted for BM
some other people voted for BM, making this a VIABLE WAGON
i stopped voting for BM and started voting for Jesus

your stated position is that i did this, as cultist, with Jesus as my cult leader. WHY WOULD I DO THIS. WHAT IS MY MOTIVATION.

spicer and innocentvillager think i did this because BM is my cult leader and my vote on him was just distancing that i never wanted to go through. they are wrong, but i can follow the train of thought that leads to this incorrect assumption.

you think i did this because... ????????

[iamausername]

alright, i'm done trying to extract any sense out of Hiraki. there is none to be had.

VOTE: Psyche

it's obviously going to be me or him, everybody choose, let's just get on with it.

i mean i'm pretty sure it's going to be me, and that this is happening entirely because i didn't flake out of the game under pressure like everyone else did.

Hiraki is the cult leader, Psyche is the cultist. please engage in maximum scrutiny on Hiraki when i flip town.

[iamausername]

I mean i could try to 1v1 the guy who's had plenty of time to catch up and hasnt bothered but unfortunately i just don't think you're scum, Aristophanes

[iamausername]

Hiraki just changed from being the third vote on my wagon to being the third vote on Logic's wagon, despite apparently thinking that i'm cult and Logic isn't.

is there any explanation for this that isn't "Hiraki and Psyche are the cult and Hiraki is doing whatever it takes to save his partner"? like, it's so brazen that i'm thinking i might have been wrong the whole time and Psyche actually is the cult leader and Hiraki the cultist.

[iamausername]

even though it somehow turned out that way, i don’t think Jesus could have reasonably expected that his vote on Logic was going to lead to Logic being hammered. if he was scum trying to save his buddy Psyche, he had a much more plausible route to doing so by voting for me there. his vote puts me to L-1, with Psyche able to hammer. i think it’s a lot more likely that his Logic vote comes from a town player who doesn’t like the options being presented and trying to find an alternative than scum trying to save a buddy.

Hiraki is the place to look for a last ditch effort to save scumbuddy Psyche. his vote is the one that fully shifted momentum from me to Logic as the Psyche alternative, and did so while expressing that he thought i was cult and Logic wasn’t. this just flatly makes no sense from a town perspective. the only way it makes sense is if Hiraki is more motivated by making sure Psyche doesn’t get hammered than anything else. this makes Psyche the most likely cult leader.

VOTE: Psyche

[iamausername]

his vote is the one that fully shifted momentum from me to Logic as the Psyche alternative, and did so while expressing that he thought i was cult and Logic wasn’t. this just flatly makes no sense from a town perspective.

I'd rather have Psyche alive than Logical? Logical at least tried to play the game, Psyche hasn't yet? Psyche replaced BM who I've TR'd this game? I wanted to make sure an elimination went through yesterday?

love 2 give hypothetical town motivations for my actions instead of explaining my actual thought process

[iamausername]

[*]Zgrynibysations are compulsive; there is no option to no zgrynibys.

hey let's not waste any more time discussing the merits of doing things that are explicitly not allowed within the setup

[iamausername]

Ssssooooo are we going to play the game ooorrrr

spicer do you have any thoughts about 558? your vote still seems to be on Jesus and not Psyche, so i assume you disagree with me. could you explain why?

[iamausername]

VOTE: Hiraki

do you think Hiraki is the cult leader? because his obvious desperation to save Psyche yesterday suggests otherwise to me.

[iamausername]

if there is a friendly neighbor then that means there is a scum role cop which would be a valuable thing for town to get out of the game no?

not particularly? one of the two town PRs is already outed, and even if the rolecop is able to find the other, how much does that even help them? they don't have a night kill.

if we hit cult leader, the rolecop might as well be a vanilla cultist for all the use it would be
if we hit town, it doesn't really matter if the rolecop finds our tracker/jailkeeper, there's nothing much they can do with that info
the only way they might possibly get some value out of the role at this point is if we hit the N1 recruit, then they will have space on their team to recruit the PR IF they manage to find it. or i guess if they failed to recruit N1 for some reason. both of these scenarios seem pretty unlikely to me.

don't get me wrong, i'd back a Hiraki execution over any other choice than Psyche, because i do think he's cult. but the fact that he's probably a rolecop doesn't really make it a stronger choice than any other non-CL cult.

[iamausername]

I didn't like logical but I knew he would flip town.

and yet you voted for him

when i had just as many votes as he did, and you apparently thought i was cult

you're making out like it was a straight choice between Logic and Psyche and you chose the lesser of two evils, but the only reason it became a choice between those two was BECAUSE of your vote

why did you not just leave your vote on me?

[iamausername]

VC

Psyche(3): innocentvillager [216], spicer1209 [331], and iamausername[501]
Logicalicaltist(3): Jesus Christ [507], Ythan [511], and Hiraki [523]
iamausername (2): Logicalicaltist [410] and Aristophanes [430]
Jesus Christ(1): Hiraki [180]
Not Voting: Psyche[512]

here's the vote count from the top of page 22. Hiraki's vote change from me to Logic comes at the very end of page 21, so minus the mod error second Hiraki vote on Jesus, this is exactly where the votes stood after he made that vote.

so, when he decided to vote for Logic, the votes looked like this:

Psyche (3) - inno, spicer, username
username (3) - Logic, Ari, Hiraki
Logic (2) - Jesus, Ythan

Not Voting (1) - Psyche

imagine you are town!Hiraki in this scenario. you have townreads on Psyche and Logic. you have scumreads on Jesus and username.

do you:

a) join a wagon on a player you townread, started by a player you scumread, and thus dismantle a wagon on your other scumread

or

b) not do that?

---

like, yes, ok, there's an impending deadline to worry about, and you erroneously believe that there's a risk of no execution occurring (regardless of his alignment, i do believe that Hiraki missed the rule on compulsive executions). but... it's safe to assume that Psyche will vote for me out of self-preservation if nothing else. you only have to persuade one other person to join the username wagon. both innocentvillager and spicer have stated that they think i'm cult at this point, they just don't think i'm cult leader.

i just don't see how you reach the conclusion that my wagon is a hopeless case right here.

i don't see how your townread on Psyche can be strong enough on D1 that it's worth giving up on the chance at executing a scumread just to keep him alive.

i don't see how you can simultaneously admit that you made that vote because it was the best way to avoid a Psyche execution and act like you weren't doing that.

why are you so sure that Psyche is town?

[iamausername]

his vote is the one that fully shifted momentum from me to Logic as the Psyche alternative, and did so while expressing that he thought i was cult and Logic wasn’t. this just flatly makes no sense from a town perspective.

I'd rather have Psyche alive than Logical? Logical at least tried to play the game, Psyche hasn't yet? Psyche replaced BM who I've TR'd this game? I wanted to make sure an elimination went through yesterday?

how in the world is any part of this supposed to constitute an answer to the question "why are you so sure Psyche is town"?

also, why do you keep saying that Ari said i was off the table? Ari has never put anyone but me on the table. are you confusing him for someone else?

[iamausername]

Vote count 2.01

It is Day 2!
With 8 votes, it takes 5 to hammer. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2020-08-14 21:30:00).

fucking lol

24 hours left until random.org decides our execution because Not Voting is the leading wagon

what a great game

[iamausername]

Don't forget that he scumread me until I townread him, and then he magically switched to townreading me. Only cult would do that.

i started townreading you because i realised i was making an incorrect assumption about your changing read on Battle Mage, it had absolutely nothing to do with your townread on me, which i don't think you even mentioned until after i started townreading you? mine comes in 435, yours not until 505?

---

now. Hiraki.

please, if you are town, can you drop the needless hostility, and answer the question "why do you think BM/Psyche is town"?

please don't tell me to read the game. i have read the game. i have found many instances of you stating that BM/Psyche is town. i have found no instances of you explaining why you think this. i am not asking you this to try to twist your words into a contradiction, or to waste your time, or whatever else you think it is i'm doing that makes you react so angrily to the question. i genuinely want to understand why you think that slot is town. because i don't think it is, and if i'm wrong, you might be the key to putting me on the right track. help me to see what you see.

Aristophanes, this is a reminder about the BM/Psyche writeup that was promised in 597.

just somebody tell me why i'm wrong

[iamausername]

this is just a totally shameless prodge, idgaf

[iamausername]

hey we have 12 hours can we please get more votes on Titus

"i don't read on replacing in, i just find a convenient excuse to park my vote on the biggest wagon going"

[iamausername]

sure thing.

the first couple of pages of this game consist entirely of Korina vomiting a bunch of nonsense all over the game like a hyperactive child.

Battle Mage (the original bearer of Titus' slot) responded to this nonsense by declaring that Korina was scum, noting that drawing attention to himself as much as he did and also voting himself to L-1 made Korina likely cultist and not cult leader, then immediately walked back this entirely reasonable conclusion and declared that actually, Korina might be cult leader after all.

following this, Battle Mage continued to tunnel on Korina to the point of not just failing to comment on literally anything else himself, but also attempting to shut down any conversation from anyone else that wasn't all about Korina.

then he flaked out as soon as he came under any suspicion.

he was replaced by Psyche, who contributed basically nothing except a self-preservation vote to end D1.

also, Hiraki did some shit at the end of D1 that made it really obvious that he was doing whatever he could to keep that slot alive while trying to pretend otherwise, which i helpfully summarised in 619.

that's the cliff notes.

[iamausername]

also, is it just not reading the game on replacing that you're saying is a null tell for Titus, or are you saying she always jumps on the biggest wagon with a justification as terrible as "this is rather overconfident"?

[iamausername]

idk if I really follow why username thinks his case is outing a scumbag but I think he wants me to believe that his case is good.

yeah i think i did a terrible job of explaining why Battle Mage felt super scummy to me, because a lot of it came down to the tone of his posts feeling extremely insincere which is harder to get across without just quoting a bunch of them and saying "look how scummy this is" but maybe i should have done that

here's a better case:

slightly premature to say I was fully willing to elim Korina at that stage,

As such, I think I'm fine with lynching Korina today

?

although having given some more thought, I am!

!

[iamausername]

I think it'd be quite strange to say I'm more towny than Jesus tho

i think innocentvillager completely missing this and agreeing with Titus that Jesus is plausible scum here is probably a town tell

it's certainly a tell that he needs to pay more attention

[iamausername]

so, if cult recruited successfully, we're in lylo now.

time for massclaim. somebody should have some info for us.

[iamausername]

I'm a

Basic Bitch

Vanilla Townie

Never recruited, never had any actions. Nothing of interest at all.

i am also this.

[iamausername]

targets?

what the hell Hiraki?

[iamausername]

spicer claimed for Jesus yesterday as his N1 target and since spicer is now confirmed JK, Jesus is also confirmed.

innocentvillager cannot be cult leader, since we know they recruited Ythan N1.

if it's Hiraki, we're not in lylo. if we miss cult today and it isn't game over, it's confirmed Hiraki is cult leader, so he gets jailed and we get him tomorrow

me/Aristophanes/Titus. that's the pool for today. i'm like 90% sure Titus gets my vote, but it's lylo, so i'm gonna take the time to reread first

[iamausername]

hey there is a massive fuckin flaw in Ari's plan which is that we lose the game as soon as i'm executed unless cult failed to recruit last night so how about we don't do that?

[iamausername]

@mods: if a Friendly Neighbor was targeted for recruitment by the cult, would their action for that night fail?

this seems like an important point to clarify here

[iamausername]

Ari's excitement about this "mechanical solve" reads genuine to me. still feeling like it's Titus. got to leave for work right now, but I'll get on this later

[iamausername]

yeah, i'm pretty sure Jesus was culted last night then.

like, in the scenario where Ari is cult, and Jesus wasn't recruited, what exactly is Ari trying to achieve by lying about receiving a message from Jesus? there's still zero chance that Jesus gets hanged today.

also Jesus made an excuse for why Ari didn't get a PM before he would have known that Ari hadn't got one if he was still town.

[iamausername]

ok, first thing's first:

VOTE: Titus

i can't see it being Ari. no one else can see it being Ari. if it is Ari, he's played it extremely well and deserves the win.

Titus does not deserve this win.

the worst, i think the major error in your analysis above is here:

if she's the CL she's also not incentivised to reflexively bus as soon as she replaces in here.

it is, in fact, very much in cult's interest to bus their recruit there. the day began at 5:3 town:cult ratio. executing town makes it 4:3. executing cultist, then recruiting someone else ALSO makes it 4:3, except they get to take out a town PR and sow more seeds of confusion.

it is 100% clear that Ythan was trying to get himself killed yesterday, and succeeded. and who started that wagon rolling? oh yeah, Hiraki. who has been obviously fucking aligned with Titus since day one. Hiraki and Ythan planned this out in the scum PT, Titus replaced in, had this plan relayed to her, agreed that it made sense and went along with it.

innocentvillager, i think the major flaw in your analysis above is:

I'm leaning username for now mostly since CL has an almost purely survivalistic agenda and being FOS'd all game there is definite scum-motivation to keeping up content like he's been doing

i accept that i am one of the few people who is not mechanically confirmed to not be the cult leader. i accept that this puts me under suspicion, and i accept that sometimes town players will get it wrong, and sometimes i'll be the one who takes the fall for that.

but "you are scum because you've actually been trying in this game" is the worst case anyone has ever made in a game of mafia and you should be ashamed of yourself

[iamausername]

the worst, innocentvillager, Aristophanes, if i am the cult leader, the question you need to ask yourself is: who is the rolecop? who has been aligned with me from the beginning? who has been my constant ally?

because i'm feeling pretty short on allies right about now, let me tell you.

[iamausername]

the answer is "because PRs"

in a normal game, scum get to take care of PRs with night kills.

in this game, cult don't get a night kill, their method of eliminating PRs is recruiting them, which they cannot do if their roster is already full. Ythan had to die to make room for Jesus.

notice how the Ythan wagon only materialised AFTER a PR was claimed yesterday.

[iamausername]

huh.

from my perspective, Titus is basically confirmed cult at this point, pretty sure her vote has been on me long enough for a speedhammer to be organised.

innocentvillager does not make that Ari vote as cult. the flow of the game was very clearly headed for a username execution until he dropped that bombshell, and he would have no reason to want to disrupt that. i am extremely confident that he is town.

so we're left with Titus/Hiraki and Titus/Ari as the only possible OG cult teams. even if i consider the possibility that i've been wrong about Hiraki, Titus seems like the obvious cult leader: BM (Titus) came in hard against Korina (Ari) on D1, and hard bussing your cult leader on D1 would be an act of absolute madness.

inno, who are you seeing as the other cult, if Ari is the leader?

[iamausername]

why does recruit!JC try to pretend the message went through to town!Ari? i like don't believe the scumteam like discussed all of this, didn't privately ask the mod, and try to pretend it got sent anyway, wouldn't recruit!JC just "send" it to one of his new cult buddies?

i kind of see where you're coming from, but like, why does cult!Ari pretend not to receive the message? doing so sets up a scenario where there is guaranteed scum in (Ari, Jesus), but only Jesus is mechanically confirmed to not be the cult leader, which just makes Ari more likely to end up on the chopping block. why wouldn't he just say "yep, got the message, Jesus is Friendly Neighbor as we already knew"?