Codenames (Game 65 in progress)

[Farren]

/in for next.

[Farren]

No preference on team. Prefer not-spymaster, but will take spymaster if no one else on my team wants it.

[Farren]

Not just Supersonic, but the plural.

My memory's a bit murky on this, but Seattle used to have a basketball team called ... either the Sonics or the Supersonics, and I cannot for the life of me remember if it was the Supersonics and just abbreviated to the Sonics, or if I'm just imagining the "Super" part. I'm not much of a basketball fan, though - not seeing anything super-obvious that leads to, but it's another possible reference that could explain the plural.

Agreed on JET and BOOM for sure. I'd put them in that order for 1 and 2.

[Farren]

Or it could just be a reference to things that fly, in which case EAGLE and PHOENIX start looking good. But if that's the case, I'd really start wondering why the plural specifically.

[Farren]

Haschel Cedricson's location is listed as "Cascadian Subduction Zone", which makes me think Washington or nearby, which is another point towards the basketball team.

And looking at the words again, both BACK and BOARD are up there. Backboard's a thing in basketball, I think?

[Farren]

Pre-edit: Boom is very strong due to Sonic Boom, it's the technically name for when something makes a loud sound due to travelling faster than the speed of sound

Yup, and "faster than the speed of sound" would be an excellent definition of "Supersonic".

Right now I'm leaning BOOM / JET / BOARD / BACK in that order. (BOARD first because it could also refer to a scoreboard, with BACK not being intended; other way around is far less likely.) If BOARD comes back bad, I'd have to ponder the plural some more for a future turn - my initial thought was that FORCE and WAKE match up better with "Supersonic", but "Supersonics" might go better with flying things?

I think everyone from our team except the worst has checked in. Maybe give him some time to check in, then guess the first two and hash out over basketball vs. flying things vs. speed connections?

[Farren]

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with NBA teams to know for sure if PHOENIXes or EAGLEs are a thing - or were a thing, since SuperSonics was an old name. Pretty sure lilith's right about Eagles being a football team, and I'd be pretty surprised if the NBA and the NFL had any matching team names. I also agree that "Phoenixes!" doesn't scan very well and probably doesn't make a good sports team name, now or ever.

Phoenix is also a city in Arizona, but I don't think it connects to the SuperSonics in anyway? When they left Seattle they went to Oklahoma City, I think. And got renamed to something else. I want to say "Thunder", but definitely do not put any money on that.

P-Edit: Is the Phoenix Suns a basketball team? Or were they a team in the past?

[Farren]

I agree that "Phoenix" doesn't connect with "SuperSonics" as the basketball team. If there's a connection there at all, I'd put it on the flying bird. Hard to say how fast a mythological bird with a penchant for flames flies ...

[Farren]

No objections on my end.

[Farren]

What sort of force is involved with supersonics, exactly? Just the natural force anything would apply if a supersonic object hits something, or is there something else at play?

[Farren]

So where does everyone stand in terms of ranking what they'd rather do for Guess #3 specifically?

BOARD > FORCE > WAKE > PHOENIX > (PASS) is my ranking right now. I wouldn't guess EAGLE at all; I'd only guess BACK for a fourth guess if we guessed BOARD and it came back red. But in that world, BACK shoots to the top of the list for guess #4.

[Farren]

Definitely is not cold in Seattle right now.

[Farren]

That looks like a majority consensus of the people who are here and participating to me. I won't object to a guess of FORCE for #3.

[Farren]

Lol. That's definitely whale, and probably telescope? Cetus is a constellation known as the whale.

100% agreed with this. I'd guess in the order WHALE > TELESCOPE.

[Farren]

Guess: WHALE

[Farren]

Supersonics: old name of an NBA team.
EAGLEs: current name of an NFL team.

Bit on the shaky side, but honestly no shakier than any of the other basketball clues. They at least share "sports team name" as a common link; common links are always a good way to clue.

MARCH is too far out, I think. That goes from "Former NBA team name" to "current NCAA tournament reference."

[Farren]

If HEDGEHOG were on the board, I might be willing to go with it. Or TAIL(s), maybe. But it'd have to be a pretty direct connection to Sonic. Ignoring both the Super and the plural is risky for stretches.

Supersonics -> Sonic the Hedgehog -> runs fast -> other people who run fast run laps? Sonic's fast, but I don't think he does much track and field.

Thinking about things from a meta perspective. We got a 2 clue when our opponents are ahead 2-4, and both connections were pretty obvious. Best case for this round is 5-4 us, with opponents in control. Given that world, does our codemaster give us a 2 clue if we were totally wrong about all of our #3 picks? Especially given that our codemaster was totally willing to open things with a 4.

[Farren]

Yeah, that's still where I'm leaning. I could maybe be talked into EAGLE given that we at least discussed it during the first round.

[Farren]

*hands Hectic a green pen*

Enomis, what are your thoughts?

[Farren]

Think that's everyone that's here.

Guess: Board

[Farren]

How many clues we have left?

We have five left; they have one.

[Farren]

Unlimited also tells us there's a max of three relevant words. If four had been intended, could have gone with RETREAT 4 (or 5) and we could still have a chance to win. Realistically, I think we have to assume there are three RETREAT words and two SUPERSONICS words.

[Farren]

I definitely like BACK (direction of a retreat) and MARCH (military commands?) Less confident about COVER and SPIDER.

Need to figure out the two Supersonics clues. Was it really just EAGLE and PHOENIX all along, or was WAKE good even though FORCE was bad?

[Farren]

Why not a clue about birds though?

Any sort of bird clue hits both EAGLE and PHOENIX. JET's a bit more of a stretch, but "Things that fly" is still a decent connection. Doesn't really get to BOOM, though. BIRDS, 4 might as a big stretch (Exploding birds is a mobile game, I think?) But then you get into things like

SKYSCRAPER

(things a bird might fly into),

BERMUDA

(maybe a locale for birds) ...

Was also thinking BINOCULARS 4 (Telescope, Whale, Eagle, Phoenix), but binoculars can be COVERed by a

CAP

when not in use; might be used from a

SKYSCRAPER

...

Too easy to go crazy and start thinking about any number of bizarre connections.

Anyway, since any mistake is game over, order doesn't matter as much if we're confident we've figured out the right clues.

I'm feeling better about COVER now. I'd be okay with BACK / COVER / MARCH in any order. Should wait for enomis to check in first, though.

Pedit: well, that didn't take long. SPIDER logic: some people are afraid of spiders and would retreat if encountering one. Alternately, some spiders are poisonous and should be retreated from if encountered.

[Farren]

If we need more time, we can guess one at a time to stretch things out. Otherwise, when we reach a consensus, there's no reason not to just queue up all the guesses at once. Well, unless we want to draw things out for drama / suspense reasons. But that would be cruel.

[Farren]

My current solve is BACK / MARCH / COVER / EAGLE / PHOENIX, in rough order of confidence.

[Farren]

xofelf, what are your thoughts?

[Farren]

Guess: back

Can't wait forever.

[Farren]

If I were codemaster and in that position, I *would* give an unlimited clue as a hail mary - after I'd completely ran down the clock and despaired of coming up with a clue that actually gave us a decent chance of winning. Better a slim chance than no chance at all.

I don't think that's what happened here, though.

[Farren]

So things we've discussed for Supersonics that are still unknown:

EAGLE
PHOENIX
WAKE

Or there's a possibility that one of the Retreat words was intended as a Supersonics word (MARCH Madness, and forget about distinguishing NCAA/NBA; COVER as ...something defensive in the sport, maybe?) and we're looking for one more word for RETREAT.

Are there any Eagle, Spider, or Phoenix constellations? I'm not aware of any, but my astronomy knowledge is severely lacking.

[Farren]

(reason being, if exactly one of those is a constellation, we don't want to guess it; it means our codemaster could have changed CETUS 2 into CONSTELLATION 3 without any major risk if the word was one of ours, and the fact that he gave CETUS at all indicates he was thinking about constellations specifically.)

[Farren]

EAGLE / WAKE is starting to grow on me.

[Farren]

WAKE for Supersonics (speed, not basketball).

Something traveling at supersonic speed would leave a wake, I think?

[Farren]

No objection to guessing EAGLE.

[Farren]

I always thought wake either means wake up or funeral.

Both of those are also definitions of "wake", or at least in the same general category.

This is why Codenames is such an awesome game; there are so many ways to interpret things.

[Farren]

Safe to say EAGLE was definitely a Supersonics clue.

One word left.

[Farren]

Anyone want to make a strong argument for PHOENIX, or are we guessing WAKE?

[Farren]

Blast. Ah well, nature of the beast. Fun game, everyone; thanks!

[Farren]

Mortar and Rockets have the same problem, I think. Grenade ... no. Dynamite hits Cover, but not March ...

Explosion hits Boom and Phoenix ... maybe Jet if we're feeling morbid, but possibly also Skyscraper and Force.

Maybe Fire 4? Backfire, covering fire / taking cover when under fire, Phoenix is obvious ... Boom's not too much of a stretch for that. Skyscraper's the only risk I can think of for that one?

[Farren]

/in for next, if there's room. No team preference.

[Farren]

BRIDGE would be something that is constructed, and that would experience road construction.
Road construction signs are ORANGE.
Maybe a wrecking BALL, although that's closer to demolition - but that's arguably part of the construction process.
Cities are rife with construction in general, putting BERLIN on the table.
CRASHing sounds occur during construction; construction might be needed to fix the aftermath of a crash as well.

[Farren]

I'd put FORK and BALL in the same category - both require adding something to the word that isn't really the primary definition of the word, and produce something used at a construction site.

Agree that ROBOT is a possibility.

So the question is, what sort of construction was the primary construction intended? SINK only really fits in with house construction, I think? I don't really think of sinks as being constructed themselves - to me, it's either roadwork, assembling a building, or putting something composed of a whole bunch of pieces together.

Definitely agree that BRIDGE is the strongest link so far.

[Farren]

I'm ambivalent on WELL, myself. I'd at least consider it, but it'd definitely be towards the tail end of my guesses.

[Farren]

I think brighteningskies is the only one of us who hasn't checked in yet, at least as far as the clue goes?

All of us seem okay with BRIDGE if nothing else, so if they haven't checked in yet in another eight hours or so, I'll put in a guess of BRIDGE at that point.

[Farren]

That's everyone. This looks unanimous:

Guess: Bridge

[Farren]

Yeah, FORK does have a very strong connection with food in general, and there are plenty of food words in general on the board. That might actually be another argument for leaving it alone for now - neither codemaster went towards the food words in general, so that could be a mixed minefield of awfulness. I agree that BALL is a stretch. BERLIN too; I think there are better words to pick from now than either of those.

As far as forklifts go ... I don't know that I really associate those with construction all that much? But I'm not sure what sort of machinery handles the sort of task a forklift would handle at a construction site. Maybe a crane for big stuff, or a bulldozer for smaller loads? (Or whatever the machine is that has a giant scoop that it can lift up ...)

I think right now I'm leaning more towards brighteningskies's selection, although I'd swap CRASH and ORANGE's position. Too many different ways that the color orange is associated with construction, between the road signs, the safety blaze that Knightmare mentioned, and the traffic cones that brighteningskies mentioned.

[Farren]

brighteningskies: CRASH > ORANGE > ROBOT
xofelf: (FORK/BALL/ROBOT/CRASH/ORANGE)
KittyMo: (FORK/ROBOT/SINK)
Farren: ORANGE > CRASH > ROBOT
Knightmare491: ORANGE / WELL > ROBOT / BALL

I think this is accurate, as of everyone's last posts?

I could see an argument for guessing ROBOT next - it's the one word none of us have really frowned at - or ORANGE (three of us have it as a top-two, worst ranking is "ambivalent" by KittyMo).

Any thoughts, anyone? Or further info about why we really should guess <WORD> next / should not guess <WORD> next?

[Farren]

I am also good with Orange first.

Guess: Orange

[Farren]

Robot next?

[Farren]

I'd prefer CRASH over ROBOT at this point, myself.

CRASH > ROBOT > WELL > BALL > FORK > SINK > BERLIN, of all the words we've considered. If CRASH is bad, that might knock BALL down in the ranking, as the wrecking ball is a prime candidate for things that make crashing noises and things that crash into other things.

[Farren]

I can feel myself drifting off into second-order solutions. Down that path lies danger.

I'll drop that line of thought for now. Still happy with either CRASH or ROBOT for the time being, preference towards CRASH.

[Farren]

brighteningskies, has your order changed any since you last posted it? How do the words that aren't in it fit in?

[Farren]

brighteningskies: CRASH > ROBOT > ... (fork/ball?)
Farren: CRASH > ROBOT > WELL > BALL > FORK > SINK > BERLIN
KittyMo: FORK > CRASH / ROBOT > WELL / SINK / BALL > BERLIN
Knightmare491: BALL>WELL>ROBOT>FORK>CRASH
xofelf: CRASH > FORK / BALL > ROBOT

Given that we've only two left, I'd say anything that doesn't have at least one 2nd-tier vote is out, at least for this round of guessing. So forget about SINK and BERLIN.

CRASH has three first votes and one tie for second. Knightmare is the only person who doesn't have it in their top two.
ROBOT has three second votes (one of which is a tie).
FORK has one first and one tie for second.
WELL has one second.
BALL has one first and one tie for second.

Based on that, I'd say forget about WELL for this round as well.

Knightmare: could you explain your objections to CRASH?

[Farren]

Guess: Crash

Let's see what happens.

[Farren]

I have never heard of Tiana, so I'm not going to be much help here.

The only "Princess and the Frog" I know of is the story of the princess who kisses a frog that's actually an enchanted prince, and that sort of story usually doesn't name the princess - or the frog, for that matter.

[Farren]

Leprechauns are certainly fictional, so if Tiana is a fictional character that would be a good connection. Loch Ness ... the monster is fictional, but I didn't think the place itself was? Still, the monster's the first thing anyone thinks about when Loch Ness comes up, so it's not unreasonable.

I was also toying with Loch Ness myself, mostly because Tiana sounded vaguely Gaelic to me.

[Farren]

brighteningskies? KittyMo? Any thoughts on Tiana?

xofelf, can you explain the Ball connection to Tiana? Are we talking like a ballroom dance type of ball, or something else?

[Farren]

Plus with Knightmare's possible connection of Olive as a name ... sounds good to me.

[Farren]

So far we have:

BALL
FORK
LEPRECHAUN
OLIVE
LOCH NESS
CONCERT

on the table?

Concert seems pretty weak. Given no Gaelic connection like I thought, I'm not liking LOCH NESS much anymore. LEPRECHAUN's a bit better with the whole "fictional" business, but not sure.

FORK and BALL have both been kinda-connected to two different clues now with varying degrees of strength. I don't suppose Tiana runs around waving a fork in the air singing about how wonderful restaurants are at any point in the movie?

[Farren]

I'd say either that, Olive, or Ball. Leaning Olive or Ball, but my instincts for this game have been lousy of late.

[Farren]

If anyone else in my team is feeling lucky or confident, please go with a guess. If not, I'll throw in a guess of ... something ... when I wake up tomorrow. Probably FORK, given that Knightmare was right about CRASH being wrong.

[Farren]

No objections here. Especially after I was wrong once again about thinking Olive / Ball were a better choice than Fork.

[Farren]

Bowler. That immediately points me towards BALL and PIN (bowling ball, bowling pins) and LEPRECHAUN (as in the hat - I think Leprechauns usually wear bowler hats). I think that covers Bowler in its entirety; everything else is based on either Tiana, Construction, or both.

[Farren]

When leprechauns go bowling, that's how they like to do it. Makes it hard to wear the bowlers, though ...

[Farren]

Sounds like no objections to guessing BALL, PIN, and LEPRECHAUN; shall we just queue up all three in that order?

[Farren]

Guess: Ball

[Farren]

Guess: Pin

[Farren]

Guess: Leprechaun

[Farren]

All right. I think we can safely conclude nothing else matches with Bowler; if it did, lilith could have given Bowler 4 and we'd still have enough guesses to win. We got an Unlimited clue, which tells me we either can go for the win or have to go for the win, or both,

CONSTRUCTION 4
TIANA 3
BOWLER U (3)

BRIDGE (Construction)
ORANGE (Construction)
FORK (Tiana, Construction?)
BALL (Bowler, Tiana?, Construction?)
PIN (Bowler)
LEPRECHAUN (Bowler, Tiana?)

So the big question: are we looking for Tiana words, Construction words, or one of each?

[Farren]

I'm still okay with Robot. Well is sounding better as well.

[Farren]

Well is also a water clue.

[Farren]

In the "what's the other possible Tiana clue?" category, Leprechaun could qualify - both Tiana and Leprechauns are fictional characters.

But yeah, as far as Well goes, I can't elaborate any further than Knightmare has. It's something that would be brought into the world via a construction process. Same line of thinking as Robot - and arguably Bridge, minus the "road construction" element.

[Farren]

Concert I'm definitely not a fan of, if there wasn't an actual concert in the movie.

[Farren]

Does anyone object to a guess of ROBOT at this point?

[Farren]

Guess: Robot

[Farren]

Looking at the grid (and finally being able to look up Tiana!), I'm guessing the breakdown was Construction: Bridge/Orange/Well/Berlin, while Tiana was Fork/Ball/Leprechaun. I'll be curious to see what our spymaster actually intended.

[Farren]

/in, no team preference, no spymaster preference.

[Farren]

Looking over the rules to the game, I don't see anything regulating one way or the other what the field operatives can or cannot say.

Based on the spirit of the game, I'd argue on going a step further: players should only debate their clues when it is their turn - and the spymaster has given a clue. PEdit: Or what Haschel said, although I'm okay with trash talking provided that it's color-coded and isn't disruptive.

[Farren]

TURKEY	SCUBA DIVER	FIGURE	FIELD	SQUARE
COTTON	OIL	SHAKESPEARE	DRAGON	FORK
SLUG	DIAMOND	SKYSCRAPER	WELL	HAWK
ROME	SPINE	EUROPE	MATCH	WATCH
GREECE	CONTRACT	LOG	SPIDER	DISEASE

Just to have the board on this page so I don't have to keep jumping back and forth.

HISTORIES 5.

ROME, GREECE, EUROPE, SHAKESPEARE all come immediately to mind - places / people that have a history.

After that, things start getting murky. If the clue had been HISTORICAL instead of HISTORY, I'd go straight to FIGURE, but it wasn't.

I can make a bunch of half-assed connections with other words, but nothing with the strength of those first four.

[Farren]

DISEASE is one of the ones I thought of, along with LOG, CONTRACT, DRAGON, and COTTON. All stretches at best.

My confidence level on any of those is laughably low, though. My initial thought is to hash out the four strong ones, and then pass if all of those are matches.

[Farren]

EUROPE has history as a continent. Heck, it's arguably the best match, as technically the clue was HISTORIES - plural. Europe has not just history but the combined histories of all its countries.

[Farren]

That being said, I'm okay with just about any order as far as ROME / GREECE / SHAKESPEARE / EUROPE are concerned. Given my last couple of games, I'd be hesitant to start digging into the deeper ones at this juncture - too many cases of thinking of reasonable-but-wrong clues that end up giving points to the opposition.

[Farren]

If no one objects, I'll queue up guesses for ROME -> GREECE -> SHAKESPEARE, in that order.

[Farren]

Guess: Rome

.
If that's blue,

Guess: Greece

.
If that's also blue,

Guess: Shakespeare

.

[Farren]

Right now, opponents need 7 to win and have 0 outstanding clues. We need 5 to win and have 1 outstanding clue with 2 hits.

We could consider passing at this point. Normally I'm loathe to do that when we've got unguessed clues on the board, but I think we're in a pretty decent position right now. Plus I seem to recall Haschel saying something last game about being of the opinion that people don't pass often enough.

Alternately, we debate EUROPE and FIGURE some more, or work on the longshots.

My current preferences: EUROPE >= (PASS) > FIGURE >> LOG >>> (other words).

[Farren]

Guess: Europe

[Farren]

MUCUS 2 ...

SLUG and DISEASE are the two most likely candidates, I think? Slugs have that ooze around them and the trails of slime they leave; some diseases cause an increase in mucus production.

The only other kinda-sorta connection I see is OIL, and that's a stretch.

[Farren]

Disease then Slug works for me. I want to think some more about Figure vs. Log.

[Farren]

Guess: Disease

[Farren]

Guess: Slug

[Farren]

I could honestly see this going either way.

Was DISEASE intended to be clued by Histories? If so, was it the reason that the clue was specifically Histories and not some other form of the word "History?"

[Farren]

So yeah, I'm kinda stuck at this moment.

Gamestate-wise, it's 5-5. Opponents need 4, we need 3.

If we guess right, it puts us in a very good position for next round - pretty much forces opponents to give a 4 clue, and those are tough, especially with leftover words.
If we guess a bystander, we're still okay. Does mean opponents will have the option of trying to push for it all or play it safer with a 2-3 clue, but the damage done to us won't be too bad.
If we guess an enemy agent ... increases the odds of opponents being able to end things next round.
Assassin produces the obvious outcome.

Europe being a bystander was kinda rattling - although I suppose Haschel could have cued MUCUS UNLIMITED if we'd guessed Europe first without any major loss.
But Knightmare's shown that he had a better grasp of the situation than I did, as he was skeptical about Europe - and right to be skeptical. And I still can't figure out why HISTORIES over HISTORICAL if it wasn't to emphasize Europe.

I think I'm feeling better about LOG right now.

[Farren]

No posts in 48 hours. Everything okay?

[Farren]

*starts looking for the timer*

[Farren]

TURKEY	SCUBA DIVER	FIGURE	FIELD	SQUARE
COTTON	OIL	SHAKESPEARE	DRAGON	FORK
SLUG	DIAMOND	SKYSCRAPER	WELL	HAWK
ROME	SPINE	EUROPE	MATCH	WATCH
GREECE	CONTRACT	LOG	SPIDER	DISEASE

Think that's right?

[Farren]

ACRE's gotta be SQUARE and FIELD. A field is something that'd be measured in acres; acres can be described as square acres (or rather, acres squared).

Only other kinda-close one I can see is WELL, but I like SQUARE and FIELD a lot better.

[Farren]

I'll wait for Knightmare to check in; if he has no objections, I'll cue up the guesses in that order.

[Farren]

We only have 8 words. FIGURE must have been wrong.

[Farren]

Guess: Square

Guess: Field

[Farren]

GG everyone!

[Farren]

/in only if needed to even out the teams when the game starts.

[Farren]

My thoughts:

Abbreviations should be out. Acronyms ... eh, could go either way there. (Stuff like laser, radar, etc should be OK no matter what, though).

Homonyms are trickier.

Homographs (words that are spelled the same but sound different) - should be OK, since we're playing a text based game. TEAR should be okay for both FACE and PAPER. Default rules also allow this - player can just spell the word if they want to keep the pronunciation ambiguous.
Homophones (words that sound the same but are spelled different) - should not be OK. Default rules forbid this; flexible rules allow it.

[Farren]

Bleh, got my terminology wrong. Homonyms should be out. There, that's the simple version.

[Farren]

Holy mackerel. Go big or go home, I guess.

GAS - stars are giant balls of hydrogen fusion, I think?
SUPERHERO - would be a star in the celebrity sense.
FAN - celebrity-type stars have their adoring fans.
MOON - a celestial body, like a Sun-type star.
MODEL - back to celebrities again.
SPACE - where you'd find a star.

I can think of a couple others, but these all seem fairly solid.

Thoughts?

[Farren]

And if lilith is at all a Star Wars fan, that puts DEATH into play - the Death Star.

[Farren]

Sirius, what are your thoughts on STAR 6?

[Farren]

Right now, I'm thinking SPACE / GAS / MOON, in that order. Then maybe pause for reflection. I'm pretty sure at least one celebrity word is going to be a hit, but from prior games, lilith's not afraid to stretch on clues. I'll be happy with this turn if we can get three without hitting any enemy agents (or assassins).

I was toying with RING and REVOLUTION as well, but I think maybe we get a gas giant planet as a clue in that case.

[Farren]

So yeah. I think SPACE is more likely than GAS. Stars are made of gas; they're found in space. Both simple, basic connections. But I think that *if* one of those two things is going to be overlooked, it's more likely to be the former and not the latter.

Note: I do not seriously believe that either of them was overlooked; I think they're both ours. But I have to cover our bases.

[Farren]

Will queue up SPACE / GAS / MOON in that order when I wake up tomorrow if no one has any objections. If anyone does, you've got about ten hours, give or take, to make them. Don't want the game to bog down.

[Farren]

Guess: Space

Guess: Gas

Guess: Moon

[Farren]

That, to me, says "Guess LION as the obvious safari connection, then go to town on all those other words we were talking about." Nothing else really screams Safari to me?

[Farren]

We absolutely can and should - although I'd want to guess LION first, just on general principles.

I'd probably start LION > MOON, then start thinking about what order to put the other STAR-based clues.

[Farren]

Will guess LION a few hours from now if we haven't heard from NotAJumbleOfNumbers.

[Farren]

Guess: Lion

[Farren]

So of the ones we considered, we've got MOON, MODEL, FAN, SUPERHERO, and DEATH left. Five words, presumably five STAR words left. Although one thing I just thought of - stars = constellations, and Leo is a constellation. That's one way LION could connect to STAR. So *maybe* we only have four left? But that's a stretch-and-a-half, especially since I don't see any other constellation words.

As far as STAR connections go, DEATH is the one I'm least comfortable with - but DEATH does kinda play in with Safari too, to some extent - safaris are about hunting, which typically results in the death of the hunted. So that strengthens it a bit, I think?

I like SUPERHERO better than MODEL. Reason being, I think superheroes are more likely to be stars than models are? Model has more ambiguity than Superhero does - could mean a supermodel (definitely a star), product model (probably not a star), model airplane (definitely not a star), model behavior (definitely not a star), etc etc. Superheroes, though? They're always ... well, either famous or infamous. And pretty much all fictional - when portrayed outside of literature, that's done by stars.

One argument I can see for going the other way - deprioritizing SUPERHERO - is that earlier consensus had it closer to the tail end. If SUPERHERO was, say, neutral, but we guessed it last ... oh well, no harm done, really.

I don't think any of the words we talked about were the assassin, though. Worst case, enemy agents. Otherwise, I think we get a zero clue to point us away from it. Or possibly another numbered clue that doesn't give us enough time to get to the less confident words on our list, if the problem child is later in the list. But definitely not an unlimited when there's still maneuvering room.

So I think we should guess all the words we were considering, unless we can think of any better connections. Or at worst, leave one out if we think LION was intended by Star.

[Farren]

Guess: Moon

[Farren]

I'm good with either one.

[Farren]

As an aside: I'm glad RING and REVOLUTION got taken out there, because I was seeing connections to STAR. (RING: think like Saturn's rings - celestial bodies; REVOLUTION: planets revolve around stars.)

A 3 clue means we can't end the game on this clue. So we'll have to hope our opponents can't end the game on theirs.

Matador - DEATH first and foremost. There are legitimate connections between DEATH and every other clue we've been given.
HORN - what the matador has to watch out (the bull's horns)
Maybe FIGHTER? (Matadors fight bulls.)

[Farren]

If Sirius doesn't object or say something by the time I wake up tomorrow, I'll put in guesses for those three in order.

[Farren]

Guess: Horn

[Farren]

Guess: Fighter

[Farren]

Okay. That's seven out of nine.

At this point, I think we pass. I don't think we take another guess at the STAR clue - if we end up guessing an enemy agent there, our chances of winning drop to just about zero, I think. And I don't think guessing correctly now is going to significantly increase our chances of winning.

[Farren]

Pass

[Farren]

Pretty sure that's Jack.

Sirius? Jumble?

[Farren]

If Sirius hasn't weighed in by the time I wake up, I'll put in the guess then.

[Farren]

Jill's the clue. Can't guess that.

Guess: Jack

[Farren]

CHAIR	KEY	TIME	GAS	SUPERHERO
LION	WASHINGTON	JAM	FAN	BERLIN
MOON	MODEL	ICE CREAM	MARBLE	KETCHUP
PLATYPUS	FIGHTER	RING	REVOLUTION	HORN
WAVE	DEATH	CHECK	SPACE	JACK

What about doing a background color on the table? How would that work in terms of avoiding mafSepia conflicts?

[Farren]

Oh, and /in only if needed to make even teams, or as a replacement only otherwise.

[Farren]

On the Hogwarts Express, one could find animals. Surely TRAIN is the way to go here.

[Farren]

It's not our turn, so we have to post in green. That way what we say can't be mistaken as serious, made-in-good-faith contributions to the team whose turn it actually is. Once our turn starts, we should no longer post in green.

[Farren]

Definitely agreed on AIR and TRAIN. I'd put TRAIN slightly above AIR, but wouldn't argue against going the other direction. I don't see anything else that really screams out "PICK ME!" right now.

CHECK is a bit of a stretch, but it's one I'd thought of as well. CAP is also a stretch, and one I did not think of.

HOTEL is another stretch - at least as a place of business that takes money.

Do ski lifts normally charge fares? If so, ALPS comes into play (as a stretch).

[Farren]

I'd definitely object to homophone-based guesses. I agree STATE would be an excellent guess for FAIR, but as far as FARE goes ... well, I suppose if the government is running the transportation system, you could call the fee to ride a State Fare, but that is stretching things way too much for my liking,

Haven't heard of a Time Fare before. My first thought on that was possible confusion with timeshares, which Mizzytastic already mentioned as a possibility.

And yeah, hotel payments would be called something else besides a fare. Fares usually strongly imply transportation.

Although now that I think on that, a hotel is a possible destination for someone paying a fare, especially airfare or a train fare. Makes me like it a little better, although there are far too many possible destinations on the board for me to be entirely comfortable with that line of thinking.

PEdit > pretty sure they are banned, which is why I'd object to basing a guess off of one, unless there's a solid connection for the word as-is. BLACK is a perfectly good clue for either NIGHT or KNIGHT, for example, or vice versa.

[Farren]

Think we're just waiting for Menalque to check in and give us his thoughts before we start threshing out what to guess and in what order?

[Farren]

Works for me.

[Farren]

Guess: Train

Guess: Air

[Farren]

My concern about CHECK is that CHECK is one of those words that can be matched to just about anything; anything can be checked in some fashion or another.

Normally with fares, it's not so much the fare itself that gets checked but the ticket that you get from paying the fare - at least with trains and planes. Could be phrased as "Check to see if you've paid the fare", but again - allow phrasing like that and I could connect CHECK to just about any clue imaginable.

Counterargument: a fare could be paid *with* a check, maybe? At least for trains and planes; taxis and buses, not so much - but train fares and airfares would be far more likely to be on the cluegiver's mind, given AIR and TRAIN were both hits. Of course, in the Age of the Internet, that's nowhere near as likely as it used to be.

My immediate inclination is to pass here. But I'm not 100% dead-set on it.

[Farren]

Hm.

2-2 split.

Anyone got a good way of resolving that?

[Farren]

3-1 for passing, and discussion seems to have ended.

Pass

[Farren]

I can see four possibilities.

Micro (as a prefix meaning Small) points to DWARF.
I think "Microstate" is a word meaning tiny country, pointing to STATE.
Micro as a reference to microwaves points to COOK.
Micro as a reference to microseconds points to TIME.

I feel pretty confident about DWARF. I would feel more confident about STATE if I were sure that I was remembering the terminology correctly; I'm not. Not sure about COOK and TIME, but I don't see anything else that I can connect to the clue.

[Farren]

As an additional point towards COOK - "Fare" could also refer to food, I think? (not referring to Fair food, either.)

[Farren]

What draws you both to LASER?

[Farren]

Right now, leaning DWARF > STATE > COOK > (pass) on my end.

LASER and PART both seem like stretches. If I had to do one of those two, I'd do LASER; I think it connects better to "Micro" specifically, as opposed to just any word for SMALL. (Thinking along the lines of microminiaturization work, based on what StrangerCoug said.) Think I agree about TIME probably not being the way to go.

And typing that monstrosity of a word out made me realize something - spell-check didn't flag it. Didn't flag microstate either, which means I probably am remembering that word correctly.

[Farren]

Given what Menalque said earlier, I think we have consensus on DWARF and STATE, at least. Will hold off on COOK for now.

Guess: Dwarf

Guess: State

[Farren]

TRIANGLE	PART	BEACH	THIEF	DWARF
LOCH NESS	STATE	HOTEL	MINT	LASER
AIR	GROUND	ALPS	POLE	BOMB
OCTOPUS	CAP	CHECK	TRAIN	AMERICA
COOK	PENGUIN	GERMANY	FIELD	TIME

Think this is where we're at so far.

[Farren]

Hm.

I think I actually would be okay with passing at this point, now that I think on it.

[Farren]

Pass

[Farren]

I'm definitely not going to be much help on figuring out Scalar.

All I remember about scalars are that they're differentiated from vectors in some fashion - like, vectors have direction and scalars don't? Something like that?

We only have two words left on the board, so everything remaining has to connect to Scalar somehow.

[Farren]

Would heat qualify as a scalar? If so, that brings COOK back into play.

[Farren]

Fair enough.

I'm also starting to wonder if TIME was the other Micro clue after all.

[Farren]

TRIANGLE	PART	BEACH	THIEF	DWARF
LOCH NESS	STATE	HOTEL	MINT	LASER
AIR	GROUND	ALPS	POLE	BOMB
OCTOPUS	CAP	CHECK	TRAIN	AMERICA
COOK	PENGUIN	GERMANY	FIELD	TIME

(moving to current page)

[Farren]

Scratch COOK. I think there are far easier ways to clue TIME and COOK than Scalar.

[Farren]

Okay, message received. COOK is bad. Avoid at all costs.

So does that mean we just go back to what we were thinking about for Scalar, except don't even think about COOK?

[Farren]

Yeah, uh, no.

[Farren]

TRIANGLE	PART	BEACH	THIEF	DWARF
LOCH NESS	STATE	HOTEL	MINT	LASER
AIR	GROUND	ALPS	POLE	BOMB
OCTOPUS	CAP	CHECK	TRAIN	AMERICA
COOK	PENGUIN	GERMANY	FIELD	TIME

Think that's correct?

[Farren]

Yeah, that works for me.

[Farren]

I'm fine with that.

[Farren]

Time to go learn about scalars!

[Farren]

That reminds me ...

Jake, were you intending CAP to be a hit for Capitalist? If so, what was the connection?

[Farren]

I can think of a couple of meaning-related connections between CAP and CAPITALIST. I was just curious as to Jake's connection, if there was one. (As an Unlimited clue, might not have intended one.)

[Farren]

/in only if needed to make even teams (or as replacement).

[Farren]

POST might be another possible - that's definitely a military term.

Oh, and CHURCH, as Crusaders are religious soldiers specifically.

SOLDIER and MARCH both look good. Maybe LIGHT; crusaders can be thought of as holy knights in some settings?

[Farren]

Initial ranking: SOLDIER > CHURCH > MARCH > LIGHT > POST.

[Farren]

Anyone object to a guess of SOLDIER?

[Farren]

Guess: Soldier

[Farren]

I'd be okay with MARCH. Iffy about guessing LIGHT and/or POST at this point.

[Farren]

Pass

.

[Farren]

Agreed on both of those.

Not sure what else fits, though. Maybe LIGHT? When they burn up in the atmosphere?

[Farren]

Any objections to DINOSAUR > SATELLITE to start with?

[Farren]

Do we want to make another guess?

I would say we probably do. Opponents need three more; if we don't guess another one here, we'll need three more.

I'd go with LIGHT right now, simply because it kinda connects with both of our clues.

[Farren]

Yeah, that's another possible connection - about as strong as LIGHT, I'd say.

NIGHT fits in better with the "astronomy in general" theme, I'd say - pretty much any sort of celestial object is easier to see at night.

If it weren't for Crusader, I'd prefer NIGHT over LIGHT. But LIGHT kinda fits with Crusader; NIGHT doesn't.

[Farren]

I'd say if Sirius doesn't respond in about 12 hours, one of us should guess something.

[Farren]

I'd say we should pass at this point.

Best case scenario: NIGHT is one of our words. That puts us up to 7/8 - still means we need one more turn to win. There's one less word on the board our opponents have to work around.
Better to leave it on the board for now, I think. Makes it harder for our opponents to win while not really making it harder for us to win. And if it *isn't* one of ours, but one of theirs, guessing it almost guarantees them the game.

[Farren]

There's no appreciable difference to us right now between being at 6/8 vs. 7/8, given that we're only considering one other word. If we were at 7/8, 5/8, or if we were considering two different words, I'd be willing to go for it. But in this exact case, we lose more than we gain by guessing anything, whether it's right or not.

[Farren]

We only have two words left.

If NIGHT was one of our words, Pooky could have just given a 1 clue to clue the one word we didn't have anything for.

So I'd be strongly inclined to *not* guess NIGHT here.

I'd say SNOWMAN / ROSE, and skip NIGHT entirely.

[Farren]

The one thing I'm wondering is how the clues lined up.

CHURCH, MARCH, and SOLDIER were definitely Crusader.
SATELLITE and DINOSAUR were definitely Meteor.

LIGHT could have been either, or both. I can't think of any way SNOWMAN connects to either ... or ROSE, unless it was a Crusader symbol, somehow ? But if both Crusader and Meteor were meant to point to LIGHT, it makes sense; in that case, neither SNOWMAN nor ROSE have been clued until now.

[Farren]

Definitely no objections to a SNOWMAN guess.

I'd still think that ROSE is a better hit than NIGHT, regardless of what's gone on before. Yeah, any given night will end sooner or later, but the night always comes back. Nights as a whole are a permanent part of the cycle; it would take the destruction of the planet to stop them. They're more ... omnipresent, I guess?

I can think of at least one clue each for SNOWMAN/NIGHT and SNOWMAN/ROSE that doesn't hit the missing word, so that's not much of a help ...

[Farren]

Going with "Impermanent" also brings to mind object permanence, which makes me think of physical objects - ROSE would qualify; NIGHT would not.

And from a "How would I rather lose the game?" perspective, I'd rather blow it on an assumption that the codemaster knows what they're doing than on an assumption that the codemaster does *not* know what they're doing. In the former case, the codemaster learns something new - if it's likely to be the last clue of the game and your team has only been seriously talking about one unguessed word, there's no need to clue it. In the latter case, it's another iteration of "trust the codemaster." (Plus in the former case, the codemaster learning something new makes it easier for the latter case to apply in the future. Everyone wins!)

[Farren]

Yeah, that is admittedly a problem.

So the big question then is: would Pooky have realized that he didn't need to clue NIGHT at all if it was one of our words, given our discussions?

I'm thinking yes, you're thinking no. Sirius?

[Farren]

Right, not knowing the significance of the 0 clue.

My impression of the 0 clue rule is that it's an easy rule to miss. I have had this happen to me as Codemaster (in IRL games) more than once, where someone went straight for the "don't even think about guessing this, DUH" bit. Combined with the fact that 0 clues (at least in my experience!) are fairly rare to begin with, it's an understandable error.

The rule in question here is "You get to guess CLUE + 1" words - and that's already happened in this very game, and it was called to Pooky's attention here:

are you guys passing?

We're out of guesses; it's automatically Blue now.

[Farren]

And we haven't seen Pooky as codemaster before, so no way to know for sure.

[Farren]

Plus there's the principle of "Two kinda-sorta clues equals one good clue," which would apply to your side of the case. Especially when they're back-to-back.

Still want to hear Sirius's opinion after he gets a chance to read what we've had to say. If he still supports NIGHT over ROSE, I'll withdraw my objections.

[Farren]

I'm not going to go against a majority consensus. It's a team game.

If both of you think Pooky wouldn't consider that aspect of the game when cluing, I don't have a strong argument to point to that says "Yes, Pooky would."

Then it comes down to - which fits Impermanent better? NIGHT or ROSE?

[Farren]

That's majority consensus.

Guess: Night

[Farren]

Congrats to the red team!

I'll do my usual /in-only-if-needed-to-even-out-the-teams bit.

[Farren]

72 hours from when a clue is first given to have the first word guessed and then 24 hours per future word guessed
This should help keep the flow of the game up, even when I'm not around so much

What's everyone's thoughts on this?

I approve of this.

What happens if a timer runs out? Prod? Forced pass? Instant loss?

[Farren]

Hm. Speech given in remembrance of the dead.

UNDERTAKER for the death connection.
WAKE, as in throwing a party to honor the dead.
SOUND, as speech is pure sound?
GRACE, like a prayer given for the dead?

Those'd be my initial thoughts, probably in that order.

[Farren]

Why "Eulogy" as opposed to "Funeral?"

I think SOUND connects a lot better with Eulogy than Funeral. (While PIANO would connect a lot better with Funeral than Eulogy.)

Is there anything else that would specifically connect to the "speech" part of a eulogy?

[Farren]

Yeah, Amazing Grace definitely falls into the "heavy association with death" category.

Assuming WAKE is good, do we want to keep guessing? I'd be happy with three hits this round.

[Farren]

I'm up for GRACE. If that one's a hit, I want to think some more before endorsing SOUND. I think it's a good guess, but I also think there may be advantages to leaving it on the board for now.

[Farren]

No objection here.

[Farren]

We absolutely pass here and do not do the random guess strategy.

Random guessing is for truly dire situations; we're off to a wonderful start.

[Farren]

Yes, wonderful clue.

[Farren]

I can't think of anything better than those three.

Four-year cycle for the Olympics.
Beijing was supposed to host Olympics at some point, I think?
Torch because Olympic Torch.

Hm. Any reason why Olympian and not Olympics? Just to clarify that we're talking about the event instead of the Olympic mountains?

[Farren]

Right now I'm thinking Torch > Beijing > Cycle. If one of those fails, then maybe go back and hit Contract on a future turn.

[Farren]

We've got less than 24 hours left.

If Jake hasn't checked in by the time I get online tomorrow, I'll put in a guess for Torch.

[Farren]

Yeah, Pumpkin and Dwarf are the only two that really fit.

Spider's neither.
Watch could be round, but isn't fat.
Screen is neither.
Fairs aren't really described in those terms.
Smugglers could be, but aren't known for it.
Shadows definitely aren't fat.
Nurse - see smuggler.
Triangles are definitely neither.
Contracts could be fat, kinda, but not round.
Pianos aren't round.

Pumpkins are usually fat and round; dwarves are frequently portrayed as such (far more frequently than nurses and/or smugglers).

[Farren]

I'd suggest a slight change to the timer rules:

72 hours initially
+24 hours to the timer with every correct guess
Timer pauses while waiting for guesses to be confirmed.

That way there's no punishment for making an easy guess early.

[Farren]

I also thought of Moonlight Sonata, but was struggling to figure it if it was pointing to shadows (due to the light) or smugglers (due to being active in the moonlight).

(/out for this one)

[Farren]

Assuming GRACE / SOUND / UNDERTAKER / WAKE are off the board ...

DATE's a gimme. I can see PANTS. PIANO's a stretch, but a plausible one. Maaaaaybe OIL, as an even bigger stretch?

Problem there is NURSE - soap operas are a thing. I'd probably go NURSE over any of the other red words remaining.

[Farren]

Amplify, 4. Bleach, 4. In that order, and no, I don't think it'd actually work; it's just the best I can come up with.