Mini Normal 2163: MItGBSMoD [game over!]

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: shellyc

I’m not losing to you twice!

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: plusJOYED

I have read through page 17 and I’ll keep reading, but definitely felt like I should put my vote here.

[Andresvmb]

I would blow up {plusJOYED, Kerset, Tayl0r Swift, Ydrasse} and hope to find some Scum. I TR {IV, Saudade, Menalque, shellyc}, and given that NDMath’s claim is serious, I suppose I would let that live. If I haven’t mentioned you, I don’t have a particularly meaningful read either way. Actually, Osuka is probably fine - I appreciate the dry posting, though I feel a bit iffy about you going so hard for shellyc at times when it’s clear that shellyc hasn’t played all that many games (and if Town, probably doesn’t have a great sense of how to find Scum).

If you want me to explain my vote, I feel like plusJOYED basically tunneling IV was off (I TR there, since IV seemed to be trying to look around and figure out why so many people jumped on them so quickly), and I can’t follow anything they’re saying haha

[Andresvmb]

424 is probably the post that pings me the most. Gut based? This is as bad of a backtrack as I’ve seen given that they also wrote 292 and 346. They also gave Bob a strong TR that doesn’t make any sense to me.

[Andresvmb]

I will say though that there’s no way the entire(?) Scum Team is voting IV right now, and plusJOYED’s shift onto Tayl0r makes me think that plusJOYED and Tayl0r are maybe not both Scum?

[Andresvmb]

Eh, whatever. I suck in the early days, at least some of you have already seen that.

[Andresvmb]

Alright at least I caught up. I’ll be around checking but probably not posting much until later tonight - I have to get through the work day.

[Andresvmb]

@andres are you gonna be around more at the weekend?

Most likely so. Honestly during the week I try to keep up but some days I’ll have really busy days at work and can’t read at all. So that doesn’t help. But when things really do heat up I will almost try and make myself available regardless of work (and maybe even at random hours).

[Andresvmb]

Actually wait, another thing @andres, why do you like osuka so far? I feel like he has p good scum equity at this point in the game as someone not like trying that hard to solve but definitely trying to give of the impression of solving, and I kind of think hard pushing one person in particular is often indicative of that sort of fake scumhunting

If osuka had highlighted something silly about Kerset, then maybe I would agree with this. But osuka’s points seemed perfectly legitimate to me. It did almost seem like Kerset was avoiding commenting on what was going on, and kept deflecting in the face of pressure. And osuka had some of the same reactions I had about shellyc’s posts but expressed them in a way that is more sarcastic and unfriendly that I would have done. However, I fully expect to see some decent takes from osuka, and until I find myself disagreeing or feeling like I’m being led in the wrong direction, I’m not going to SR it.

[Andresvmb]

I think my view of Saudade is somewhat similar. Except Saudade is far more active and has more of a thread presence, which makes me think they’re even more likely to be Town. And yeah, I’m one of those people that think that Scum like to avoid making mistakes or putting themselves in bad spots by posting less. Except when it’s all convoluted or involves a lot of attacking a few specific players which is much easier to hide behind despite posting a lot of content.

[Andresvmb]

Also, I do have a hard claim I should make early - I’m a Miller.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know what the meta is in this site, but from where I come from, this is one of those things I need to get out early.

[Andresvmb]

You know what else seems really unlikely? That you’re Town hahaha

[Andresvmb]

I would leave the Ascetic Claim alone for now. I don’t see any reason to doubt it. And unless you have more information about the setup than I do, I don’t see how you could make any claim about what is likely or unlikely mechanically.

[Andresvmb]

Actually, Osuka is probably fine - I appreciate the dry posting, though I feel a bit iffy about you going so hard for shellyc at times when it’s clear that shellyc hasn’t played all that many games (and if Town, probably doesn’t have a great sense of how to find Scum).

newbies get approximately zero leeway with me outside of the newbie queue

I don’t think I was saying that you should give her “leeway”, but that the lack of experience (and seeming lack of interest in developing a strong Town game) *should* color your view of the slot. I imagine that if an experienced Mafia player came out and said some of the same things as shellyc, you would think that they are intentionally trying to obfuscate, which might be Scummy.

[Andresvmb]

I guess what I’m seeing is that shellyc is confused and convoluted Town, doesn’t know really what to push, and is sort of memeing in the dark. Shelly seemed far more assured as Scum regarding what to do and who to push in the newbie game we played together. I can’t say I’ve seen the same play here, but who knows right it’s still early.

[Andresvmb]

unfortunately I rolled town this game

which is sad since being scum is real fun

nvm even in my chat mafia days I always got SR as town

I don't like sheeping

I don't like being self aware

and I don't like dark avis

VOTE: PlusJoy

PUSH IT TO E-1

lets duel

INTENT TO HAMMER ON PLUSJOYED

Like these posts stick out to me. There’s an admission that being Scum is more fun (which squares with posting outside of this game), there’s a lot of comments on how their reads are very much gut based (with some clear posting as to how she intends to find Scum - confidence and apparent self-awareness being up there), and a weird flip on plusJOYED which she was TR previously. Does any of this strike you as Scum? Because I’m not seeing it.

[Andresvmb]

It’s Andrés. But yeah.

[Andresvmb]

You shall be town with me, the Andre alliance

I LIKE THIS.

[Andresvmb]

Andres is comign across as similar to his play in his last game. So if he is town based on his meta read than shelly is likely town

Bob what do you think of plusJOYED? Am I seeing ghosts there?

[Andresvmb]

Ugh okay I re-read plusJOYED in our Newbie game, and maybe I’m being too hard on him for having reads that don’t make much sense (from my POV). He had a Scum Read in that game of a slot (Notscience) because he felt they were being too Towny to be Town (they were just Town, and so was plusJOYED). However, they did have all of the Scum in their pool towards the end, and one I had dismissed as firm Town, so there’s that.

[Andresvmb]

andres, i have a question: what do you think scum!shelly does in this plist? she seems town!me, town!plus, town!andres here from 2023 knowing she was scum, you think she tries to play the same way? you have to account for some possible expansion of her scumrange given all this

I will agree that shellyc probably plays it different (at least to start). At the same time, there’s certain things players have a hard time shaking so quickly. I won’t reveal everything I saw last game from a re-read that might happen here, but if I spot anything I’ll put it out there.

[Andresvmb]

Also, UNVOTE: .

[Andresvmb]

And yeah, I’m one of those people that think that Scum like to avoid making mistakes or putting themselves in bad spots by posting less. Except when it’s all convoluted or involves a lot of attacking a few specific players which is much easier to hide behind despite posting a lot of content.

Suuure but you don't even post a lot or execute this policy on others.

Uhm, what are you talking about?

[Andresvmb]

Maybe my question wasn’t clear - what makes you think I’m not executing on this policy?

[Andresvmb]

@Kerset am I going to get an answer to my question or should I just assume you’re going to ignore it?

[Andresvmb]

@Kerset am I going to get an answer to my question or should I just assume you’re going to ignore it?

What do you want, quotes? I saw the way you play and how you think. You just made up this theory to suit the moment.

Alright.

VOTE: Kerset

[Andresvmb]

I am happy after ISO’ing to say that {Ydrasse, IV, Saudade} are Town, and won’t be voting there today. I’m fairly happy with my vote actually.

@Ydrasse / Saudade, I had Menalque as Town, but from reading their ISO, I’m really not sure. If Tayl0r flips Town or Kerset flips Scum, I would take a much closer look there. Particularly if Kerset flips Scum.

[Andresvmb]

@andre why the kerset part?

496

[Andresvmb]

mena didn’t explain the difference btwn kerset and taylor from what i can find?

Yeah I didn’t see anything about it either.

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m going to sleep - it’s late where I am. I’ll check in the morning.

[Andresvmb]

Actually wait, another thing @andres, why do you like osuka so far? I feel like he has p good scum equity at this point in the game as someone not like trying that hard to solve but definitely trying to give of the impression of solving, and I kind of think hard pushing one person in particular is often indicative of that sort of fake scumhunting

If osuka had highlighted something silly about Kerset, then maybe I would agree with this. But osuka’s points seemed perfectly legitimate to me. It did almost seem like Kerset was avoiding commenting on what was going on, and kept deflecting in the face of pressure. And osuka had some of the same reactions I had about shellyc’s posts but expressed them in a way that is more sarcastic and unfriendly that I would have done. However, I fully expect to see some decent takes from osuka, and until I find myself disagreeing or feeling like I’m being led in the wrong direction, I’m not going to SR it.

Osuka’s point(s) on kerset seem to be limited to “policy lynch” bc of his shitposting, so are you just agreeing with policying there or am I missing something in ISO? It feels like you’re talking about saudade here not osuka, or like conflating the two of them.

I also don’t see how osuka was having the same reaction as you to shelly when you’re hard townreading her and he opened by voting her in reaction to the same posts you’re TRing? Idgi

Actually Menalque I checked and you’re right about this - for some reason I thought Osuka was being harsh on Kerset but indeed, it was just Saudade who was (for some reason I remembered it as a bit of a tag team effort, though mostly carried out by Saudade). You will notice from my interaction with Kerset that I have other reasons for voting the slot obviously, but those came much later.

And I think my argument about shellyc being Town was very much related to what I was perceiving in terms of approach and tone (from playing with her in a different game). If you’re unfamiliar with shellyc, I can absolutely see how you can arrive at the conclusion that she is Scum (which is why I was saying that osuka’s responses seemed harsher than what I would have done, but still in the ballpark of what I was thinking). If I disagree with the conclusion but see a reasonable thought process, then I was fine TR’ing osuka. It’s not particularly strong - osuka is almost intentionally making themselves hard to read, but I don’t feel an urgent need to pressure them if that makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

Okay, I actually think I want this more than Taylor atp

VOTE: plusjoy

I think the attempt to go “one scum seems likely in the miller/ascetic” is more of a scum thought process than a town one, which I think is just wondering what the setup philosophy was. Whereas scum are already clued in on the setup from whatever power they have and would likely try to take advantage of roles that might become Named Townies lategame by trying to shade them/flip them early

I’ll admit that this absolutely triggered alarm bells in my head, which is why I had that snarky remark immediately after saying that I thought it was highly unlikely that plusJOYED was Town. I am having conflicting thoughts about the slot based on how plus played in the newbie game, but I suspect it’ll become clearer over time.

[Andresvmb]

Also, @Bob I’m still waiting on your take on plusJOYED.

[Andresvmb]

Also, @Bob I’m still waiting on your take on plusJOYED.

Well at the moment I simply don't trust his town read on me. Partly because his town read on me is based on my opener. For that i can't tell if he is town over reading what should really at most be slightly town slot (just above null). But instead its top town read.

Teacher appears to have reacted the same to your slot in 776. He didn’t verbalize it the same way, but he did have you up there.

[Andresvmb]

Andre as scum is more aggressive and reactive then as town and here he lost temper after i gave shade on him.

I didn’t lose my temper. Your point was silly, and you offered no defense for it.

[Andresvmb]

Kerset has not played with me as far as I remember outside of this game - meta from them about me is truly irrelevant. The idea that I am not reactive as Town is immediately made ridiculous if you read my interactions in Mini Normal 2157 towards VP Baltar for example, particularly towards Endgame.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not giving away self meta without referring to a game. Everybody can make their own assessments about how I play Town or Scum. I’ve quoted multiple games I have played in my home forum in the other games I have played here, and you can see how I approach Town because that’s what I was in the two games I’ve played here that are complete. It is obvious to me that you don’t care to justify your meta argument because you can’t. That’s the point. It’s not a point about self meta. It’s a point about you having an agenda and no way to back up what you’re saying.

A reasonable approach would have been to tell me look you have this theory argument. Either you could say that you disagree and state why, and either move on (nobody really cares about theory arguments), or you could state look at your read on whoever. How does that square with what you’re saying here? And see how I move through that process. A bit how Menalque for example challenged my view of Osuka. Instead, you make your point, offer no defense for it, and think people should just go by that.

[Andresvmb]

quick check-in here

I've speedread things
teacher looks quite town
kerset's recent responses are a plus in terms of town points but im still leaning scum there

Shelly walk me through why you are assigning Town points to Kerset for recent responses.

[Andresvmb]

@Teacher, I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere by arguing that specific point with Kerset. It’s almost as if they’re arguing that 1. I have stated a method by which I go about catching Scum here that is pretty narrow, and 2. since I haven’t been completely faithful to it here or elsewhere, 3. I’m bullshitting and therefore Scum. This seems to be the logic yes? I do tend to think that on average Scum tend to be less active than Town, particularly in the early game. Does this apply to everyone? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Faking Scum (and Town bunting) is not easy, and takes a lot of effort and practice. And some people truly never get there. That was my simple argument. Is this the only way I go about trying to figure out what is going on? No. You can see that in my other games here, obviously. What I don’t understand is why this seems to be Scummy to Kerset. That’s what I don’t understand.

The meta argument is obviously horrendous. Bob, Menalque, IV, shellyc and plusJOYED have already seen me play Town at least once, and Menalque knows me decently well. Just ask them if their perceptions of my play fit with what Kerset is arguing.

[Andresvmb]

^(and Town) hunting*

[Andresvmb]

I claimed Miller in my 10th post, on the first day I really started posting and engaging with this game. It wasn’t the first thing that came out of my mouth, but it wasn’t “late”. If I was claiming Miller D2, by all means go ahead and call it late.

[Andresvmb]

Saud you want to sell me on your iv townread?

You think IV is more scum than Kerset?

Nope, didn’t say that. Just said I’m super conflicted. I want people to give me reasons why they are one way or another so that I can try their thoughts on for size since I can’t seem to fit my own. Maybe it’s the absurd comment that they don’t have scumreads or case — without seeing the mindset trajectory, reading the slot is hard for me.

I have been thinking about this. This is what I’ve been seeing from IV. I’ll state upfront that if I see conclusions and/or interesting takes where I can see the thought process, then I tend to get comfortable with a player (at least as a starting point).
143 - IV’s take on Ydrasse is flatly stated and I agree.
278 - I like this take, and would absolutely agree that Saudade v. Kerset is probably not SvS. In my view, the conflict between Saudade and Kerset does not read like distancing, and Saudade is actively trying to court votes onto Kerset in {Ydrasse, IV}.
431 - I don’t like that IV makes the effort to point out that they have a Tayl0r read that is a hot take (which was a Town Lean). Having said that, I do very much understand where the plusJOYED read is coming from. It is precisely this sort of thing that’s creating a conflict in my head, because there are a lot of posts I would traditionally find Scummy from plus.
540 - This vibes decently well with my reads (outside of plus).
719 - This adds to the read about plusJOYED and I think it’s reasonable.
1014 - This is also a good comment, and IV seems to be constantly probing and reevaluating reads.

[Andresvmb]

i don't wanna vote kerset his avi is cute

I want more from you than just this kind of nonsense. You seem to have dramatically reduced the actual content in your posts following some criticism about your thought process. Where are you right now? I believe you said Kerset was a slight Town Lean. Can you provide an update?

[Andresvmb]

I see plus is on VLA until tomorrow. Hopefully I get some response by then.

[Andresvmb]

Any particular reason why?

[Andresvmb]

Shelly walk me through why you are assigning Town points to Kerset for recent responses.

because they feel town???

seriously

I understand that you might think some players just are Town in your gut. I get that. But even if it’s hard to vocalize, sometimes it does help to point to something (anything), big or small, as to why you think someone is Town.

[Andresvmb]

when teacher was onto them they stopped fluffposting and started creating content

I consider that a town response

And yeah this doesn’t count. “Creating content” while under pressure is not indicative of anything at all. That’s the thing about it. Literally anybody can do it.

[Andresvmb]

And yeah this doesn’t count. “Creating content” while under pressure is not indicative of anything at all. That’s the thing about it. Literally anybody can do it.

imo scum under pressure would feel the need to relieve the pressure. Town would just continue scumhunting

that being said I don't hate a kerset lim today

And Town under pressure also feels the need to relieve said pressure and avoid being mis-executed a lot of the time. It’s why some people react with frustration and aggressiveness when they’re wrongly Scum Read. It happens all the time. That’s why “creating content” isn’t much of a reason to Town Read someone in my view. It’s pro-Town sure. Making yourself easier to read helps. But it can’t be the main reason you argue someone is Town in my view.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, you might not buy the answer, and that’s fine, but it is an answer — it counts, you just disagree w it.

I’m trying to get more of an explanation out of shellyc. Because if they really do TR Kerset over creating content, but then are perfectly happy with their elimination, then that’s not a particularly strong TR yeah?

[Andresvmb]

shelly's iso is much townier than I expected it to be.

????????????

I don't like this

NDMath being very apathetic here. 0 original content

how is this different from

Shelly walk me through why you are assigning Town points to Kerset for recent responses.

because they feel town???

seriously

because all i see in 1168 is fucking fluff

poof i hope to god ydrasse is town because if she's scum then i dont fucking know anything about this game anymore

i have no idea how to read saudade so im not even gonna try at this point

scum vibes from andres for distinctly indistinct reasons

This is funny yes?

[Andresvmb]

And Town under pressure also feels the need to relieve said pressure and avoid being mis-executed a lot of the time. It’s why some people react with frustration and aggressiveness when they’re wrongly Scum Read. It happens all the time. That’s why “creating content” isn’t much of a reason to Town Read someone in my view. It’s pro-Town sure. Making yourself easier to read helps. But it can’t be the main reason you argue someone is Town in my view.

being protown helps town; scum does not strive to do protown things

also they created content and imo the content felt pretty town. the response could feasibly come from town but overall they are still scumlean on my scum radar as explained above.

This is wrong. Scum strives to do Town things to be TR and avoid being executed. It’s just that it’s intermingled with things that are not pro-Town.

[Andresvmb]

@Mod why have I been prodded but Kerset hasn’t? DOUBLE STANDARD.

[Andresvmb]

you're TMI'ing since scum!you knows I am town

I'm SR'ing you for similar reasons as teacher: not giving your thoughts, taking safe stances and not putting effort into scumhunting.

"You can't have real thoughts"
"Give your thoughts"


@Andre Can you elaborate on your reasoning for you Saud townread?

I think the main reason I TR Saudade is gut/tone and the fact that we seem to broadly agree, if that makes sense. Saudade has yet to push someone I thought wait, this push seems bad.

[Andresvmb]

@Mod why have I been prodded but Kerset hasn’t? DOUBLE STANDARD.

prods are after 36 hours of no acitivity, did i do a bad?

Ah, I missed Kerset’s one line post on Sunday. Maybe I should make close to irrelevant posts so I don’t get prodded.

[Andresvmb]

Andres you do not need to advise me on how to catch scum.

that being said I have had one (1) towngame.

I’m not advising you on how to catch Scum. What I’m pointing out to you is that some of the reasons you are TR certain players for may not be as rock solid as you think, and I’m explaining why it is that I think so. Feel free to completely disagree with me if you want. How you go about catching Scum is entirely up to you.

[Andresvmb]

Do you townread Kerset nda?

Null. The extended rvs like posts are scummy, but that and the argument with andre/teacher are pretty much the only two things holding the wagon up. And I can see a town!kerset believing teacher was trying to be manipulative with his question.

@Andre Can you elaborate on your reasoning for you Saud townread?

I think the main reason I TR Saudade is gut/tone and the fact that we seem to broadly agree, if that makes sense. Saudade has yet to push someone I thought wait, this push seems bad.

Remind me who or when he's pushed outside of kerset?

It’s not all about Scum Reads yeah? Yes there’s a lot of Town in any game so faking Town Reads is not the hardest thing to do. But c’mon, they wanted an alliance with me! We’re the Andre alliance. So I’m either hard pocketed right which for now I’m fine with, or they’re just Town and have read me right.

Also, I have been thinking about this. I do think a lot of Kerset’s push onto me is completely made up. From what I can gather, it’s based on a completely silly meta read that nobody has bothered countering for some reason, and what seems like a philosophical disagreement that nobody else has really focused on at all. It just seems fake.

[Andresvmb]

You've lowkey tried to underminedmy case with subtle comments and meta, I don't like any of this interaction =(

I would also argue that this is some decent shade towards Teacher.

[Andresvmb]

so you think scum!kerset wants town!you (relatively lurky) as todays mislim?

did I miss something? when did kerset push you

pedit: do you think the shading is AI? tbh meta / subtle comments aren't quite a worth SR

I don’t think I’m relatively lurky at all. Yeah I didn’t come on yesterday after posting on Saturday. But that seems like a shitty tag. Also, the game state is kind of stuck onto Kerset. There’s been some attempts at moving the wagon away, but not a whole lot of movement really. And just read the posts around where I placed my vote on Kerset. You can find it in my ISO. Or you can ISO Kerset. The meta read in particular I found funny.

[Andresvmb]

And not everything is about making me (or anyone in particular) the mis-elimination. Part of what you want as Scum I feel is to have a chaotic game state where nobody is strongly TR. The minute the Town achieve some sort of block, your odds of winning go way down as Scum. So it’s not all about driving specific mis-eliminations. It’s also about making certain players look much less like certain Town to other Town. And that tends to be more subtle.

[Andresvmb]

this is pretty town

throwing out thoughts that aren't quite polished gets townpoints

scum are appearance focused

Was this in reference to the posts I quoted from Osuka?

[Andresvmb]

Uhm, I don’t want to make any rash conclusions on plusJOYED, but I do think a lot of the more recent posts are coming from Scum. I don’t know how else to put it.

[Andresvmb]

why don't ya vote me then?
i'd prefer your vote on me rather than kerset so we can get an elim from someone i sr today instead

This is strange from my view. The first part actually is fine. I do too don’t like shade without votes. But trying to attract votes so that a different wagon goes through does not sound like Town. It’s a weird mindset. Why not just try and convince others as to why Tayl0r is Scum say? Why try and intentionally siphon votes from the leading wagon and onto you so that a different wagon goes through?

[Andresvmb]

cuz im leaning town on kerset and their avi is cute

I’m not arguing that having a TR of Kerset is Scummy or a SR of Tayl0r is Scummy. What I’m arguing is Scummy is you directly saying that you want people on Kerset to vote for you so that Tayl0r gets executed. THAT doesn’t make sense. If all you’re going to say for Kerset Town is that you like their AVI and you just personally lean Town, then yeah don’t be surprised if you don’t sway too many people. I think you explained your Teacher SR. How about Tayl0r?

[Andresvmb]

if kerset is red i think osuka is town
i don't see scum osuka not pursuing another wagon while his scum bud dies day 1
same for teacher but to a lesser extent

Is this pinging anyone else

It’s pinging *me*. It sounds planned. How does plus go from:

I'm still leaning towards IV being scum the most but if only me, shelly, and lurkerman think so and the rest think IV is town there's not much I can do since the read is pretty gut based. I'm willing to join on a taylor wagon though since they seem second scummiest.

To that post I don’t know. Like it doesn’t sound like a plus thought.

[Andresvmb]

if kerset is red i think osuka is town
i don't see scum osuka not pursuing another wagon while his scum bud dies day 1
same for teacher but to a lesser extent

Is this pinging anyone else

It’s pinging *me*. It sounds planned. How does plus go from:

I'm still leaning towards IV being scum the most but if only me, shelly, and lurkerman think so and the rest think IV is town there's not much I can do since the read is pretty gut based. I'm willing to join on a taylor wagon though since they seem second scummiest.

To that post I don’t know. Like it doesn’t sound like a plus thought.

Can you elaborate I’m not following you

If Kerset flips Scum, does your mind immediately go okay Osuka is probably Town because they unvoted there and didn’t push anyone else to save their buddy? Is that your first conclusion?

[Andresvmb]

Never mind that we should be waiting on an actual flip to draw some of these conclusions btw. Which seems TMI’ish to me.

[Andresvmb]

The other point is look at plusJOYED’s ISO. Read what drives the VAST majority of their reads. They are all directly based on something the specific player did or said, or a gut feel they gave them. That’s why that post sticks out so much. It’s like in a sea of simple, direct thoughts (nothing wrong with that at all mind you - some excellent Town players I know are very concise in their posts), we get that ONE post saying why osuka might be Town if Kerset flips Scum because of something they did related to that wagon and failed to do once they Unvoted. Not saying it can’t be a legitimate post following a flip. It’s just that I can’t square it with everything else plus has posted.

[Andresvmb]

Never mind that we should be waiting on an actual flip to draw some of these conclusions btw. Which seems TMI’ish to me.

you think anyone speculating on this kind of stuff is a TMI scumtel?

There’s no balance in that post. There’s no if Kerset flips Scum, you know this could be the case. However, if Kerset flips Town, then this other thing might be true.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not about being static all game. This is still D1. The only person that I’m seeing really try to give wagon analysis without flips as far as I can tell is Bob. And I have a good feeling as to why that is. And no I won’t expand on that.

[Andresvmb]

For someone having incomplete and random thoughts, the train of thought that ends in if Kerset is Scum, osuka is Town for unvoting and not pushing someone else to protect their buddy seems mighty elaborate to me.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway there’s been more than a few things that have sort of pinged me on plus. I’m decidedly negative on the slot, and it isn’t just these latest posts. Their speculation around the Roles and trying to argue that one of NDMath/Me was Scum because of it seemed super fishy too.

[Andresvmb]

Okay but IV read the rest of plus’ posts. Like take a look at their ISO. They pointed to you tripping some Scum Tells and making mistakes and when directly asked to back that up, they refused. So many of the reads seem gut based, and then there’s the comment about how Kerset’s AVI is cute (which I think has been made a few times). How can you not see that the post sticks out somewhat?

[Andresvmb]

Never mind the weird shift from IV is Lean Scum to IV is Town with little explanation.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway there’s been more than a few things that have sort of pinged me on plus. I’m decidedly negative on the slot, and it isn’t just these latest posts. Their speculation around the Roles and trying to argue that one of NDMath/Me was Scum because of it seemed super fishy too.

it is like kind of weird that two roles in the same game would want to claim immediately so I don’t see why you’re getting scum pints from that necessarily, NAI at best imo

why super fishy?

This is bad. Ascetic and Miller have specific reasons for wanting to claim that should be obvious to you.

[Andresvmb]

Never mind the weird shift from IV is Lean Scum to IV is Town with little explanation.

Is this to me?????????

No that’s also about plusJOYED.

[Andresvmb]

Ok it isnt phew

Boooooooooooy this better not be to me

Hahaha I was still responding to IV! If I was speaking about you I would have mentioned you directly.

[Andresvmb]

like it’s a bit weird but i don’t think it’s as scummy as them trying to dismantle the kerset wagon?

I think there’s a lot about plus that is raising some red flags. I am just saying - that specific post did ping me and I’m explaining why. You will remember that I was answering Menalque who also raised that post as an issue.

[Andresvmb]

sorry andres I am just generally a nonbeliever in scumtells for some stubborn reason, it takes a lot to convince me with reasoning someone is scummy but let’s keep talking sometime about plus

my scumreads have usually been gut pings

And hey my gut is MUCH better at picking up Town and Scum than my head/logic. But you’ll also notice that my read isn’t entirely logic based. And neither is my argument about that post sticking out.

[Andresvmb]

Did you think they are just going to come on now seeing that they have been hammered and just tell you yeah you got me screw you? Hahaha

[Andresvmb]

I’m really hoping this flips Scum so the Andre alliance can remain without paranoia!

[Andresvmb]

If kerset flips red the partners are osuka and teacher

Nah I don’t know. I think teacher looks bad for sure. I don’t know about osuka.

[Andresvmb]

Hahaha that was humor? It looked like an attempt at an early solve! You needed to add a “for sure” at the end there to clarify that it was humor.

[Andresvmb]

Wait

DON’T

[Andresvmb]

Okay, we’re not in twilight.

[Andresvmb]

The two votes from IV and Saudade were already on the wagon.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

You really should check again.

[Andresvmb]

1400

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: plusJOYED

[Andresvmb]

kerset, are you hardclaiming doc?

if you would be smart you would realize it from 1101 already

I lost your crumb because of “ambulates”.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Tayl0r

[Andresvmb]

Also Saudade WHY! You Unvoted around there but didn’t say anything after saying it had been fruitful and then re-voted.

[Andresvmb]

Seeing it*

[Andresvmb]

Ah my correction is wrong the original thought was correct. DAMMIT.

[Andresvmb]

Carry on my children this has been fruitful

Here.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: plusJOYED

VOTE: Tayl0r

?

I think plusJOYED is Scummy based on their response in supposed twilight. I mean c’mon that reaction is as fake as possible.
Tayl0r switched towards Kerset around the crumb. And Saudade Unvoted around the crumb as well (maybe waiting on someone to pick up on the crumb) but jumped back after nobody highlighted it.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll wait to see if there’s a CC at all but yeah some early thoughts.

[Andresvmb]

Also Saudade WHY! You Unvoted around there but didn’t say anything after saying it had been fruitful and then re-voted.

Is this English I’m so confused

I just tried to explain it.

[Andresvmb]

sorry I’m delirious and talking to myself if you can’t tell

Did you know you had not hammered?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: InnocentVillager

[Andresvmb]

hm yeah this reaction makes me think he is gated

I’m going to try a bit to get it out of him

sorry I’m delirious and talking to myself if you can’t tell

Is it kind of sad that I think this was meant for the Scum PT?

[Andresvmb]

hm yeah this reaction makes me think he is gated

I’m going to try a bit to get it out of him

sorry I’m delirious and talking to myself if you can’t tell

Is it kind of sad that I think this was meant for the Scum PT?

or rather 1518 was meant for PT and 1519 is attempt to conceal it

Yeah exactly.

[Andresvmb]

It would also explain IV's defense of plusJOYED actually. I think we need a lot more votes on IV.

And if IV flips Scum, flip plusJOYED for sure.

[Andresvmb]

lol can you imagine if mistook that for the scum PT

they are literally different colors it’s not possible to mess that up

We can discuss that after your flip.

Unfortunately, I think it is very obvious that you are talking to *someone*. Your post is not phrased in a way that anyone would interpret it as you speaking to yourself. And since it doesn't flow in the conversation at all, I am going to stick to my initial quick conclusion.

[Andresvmb]

I feel like if kerset is town then one of (ND, Andres) is actually probably scum

Why you Scum Menalque?

[Andresvmb]

@Saudade I will forgive you if you vote IV with me.

[Andresvmb]

C'mon Ydrasse you don't buy that yeah?

[Andresvmb]

YOU WERE NOT EVEN AT L-1.

[Andresvmb]

HAHAHA okay that's a bus vote if I have EVER seen one. Well I think we have at least 2 Scum no?

[Andresvmb]

Okay they are different colors. Good for you. It does not explain the content of your post in the least bit.

[Andresvmb]

Because you did mess up the PTs.

[Andresvmb]

Uhm, you seem to be reaching real hard here.

[Andresvmb]

I mean c'mon it's not something I cannot follow. I can follow exactly. You meant to tell your Scum Buddy that you would try and get Kerset to reveal more details about whether they were gated or not. In what other context does your post make ANY sense?

[Andresvmb]

well specifically what kind of gated they were not if they were gated or not

EVEN WORSE.

[Andresvmb]

andres how confident are you I will flip scum? Like would you bet your life on it

I think you're Scum like 99.99% of the time.

[Andresvmb]

@Bob you're like a day late and a vote short.

[Andresvmb]

idk, I was just lol!curious and don’t see why he didn’t just fullclaim

Yep, real Towny mindset right here.

[Andresvmb]

@Bob, what are you waiting for?

[Andresvmb]

I want to stop to commend Osuka for figuring out the game state correctly.

[Andresvmb]

And @Kerset, maybe don't make bad claims about my meta. Makes me suspicious of you.

[Andresvmb]

andres who is the team based on your thinking?

and what will you do when I flip green

You are not flipping green.

[Andresvmb]

andres who is the team based on your thinking?

and what will you do when I flip green

You are not flipping green.

I do flip green and your probability or 99.99% is obviously off but it’s so off I think it’s town

anyway do start thinking of the actual scumteam when I flip, I trust you will lead the town to victory and avenge my unfortunate feath

I am hard calling for your head. To avenge your death, I would have to vote for myself.

[Andresvmb]

IV is flailing Scum right now and it is somewhat amusing.

Ydrasse, can you just put your vote back please?

[Andresvmb]

I don't think that the correct play is being like woooooo iv scumslip we eliminate himmmmmm yeaaaaaaa Slips are a thing that i have seen happen in mafia history (even that there are different color themes) but you can't be sure about it unless it is a quote.
I sometimes write down my speculations about the game with no intention of them being public. Just to look at them and ponder.

It’s not just the post. It’s the self-consciousness around it and everything else that has followed. There wasn’t a “that’s not a slip, stop being silly” type response. It was just a bad reaction to a bad post with a bad mindset behind it.

[Andresvmb]

Unless you think that trying to probe about the limitations surrounding a Doctor claim is a Towny mindset.

[Andresvmb]

i’m just dumb tbh

What. Why?

[Andresvmb]

Also, scumslips end up being actually scum like, a very small % of the time and IV has otherwise been very townie all day? Like I didn’t think I’d have to defend him because I didn’t think things would end up so wildly swinging into something so fucking dumb

C’mon Menalque you don’t have to call it “fucking dumb” if you want to defend it. The thing about it is - you’re arguing something in general (which I agree with btw) instead of focusing on the specifics of what is being claimed as the slip. IV confirmed that they were probing in a way that is

decidedly anti-Town

, and they wrote something down that was clearly meant in conversation. IV defended it as conversation with themselves, but c’mon how is that believable? There’s no way you could argue that the probing per se is not anti-Town. So instead of arguing the specific point, you’re dismissing the whole thing, saying that Scumslips aren’t all that useful. Well, this defense is not striking me as particularly convincing in this instance.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think of myself as “fucking dumb”. I’m not a great Mafia player by any means. But I’m not dumb. And it is clear as day that there’s something wrong with the post that was highlighted and the immediate follow up.

[Andresvmb]

Also, scumslips end up being actually scum like, a very small % of the time and IV has otherwise been very townie all day? Like I didn’t think I’d have to defend him because I didn’t think things would end up so wildly swinging into something so fucking dumb

C’mon Menalque you don’t have to call it “fucking dumb” if you want to defend it. The thing about it is - you’re arguing something in general (which I agree with btw) instead of focusing on the specifics of what is being claimed as the slip. IV confirmed that they were probing in a way that is

decidedly anti-Town

, and they wrote something down that was clearly meant in conversation. IV defended it as conversation with themselves, but c’mon how is that believable? There’s no way you could argue that the probing per se is not anti-Town. So instead of arguing the specific point, you’re dismissing the whole thing, saying that Scumslips aren’t all that useful. Well, this defense is not striking me as particularly convincing in this instance.

Why is it implausible to ask about hating as town? When like (1) that’s what I did and I know I’m town (2) there are legit reasons that I’d rather not get into but relating to an ascetic claim that warrant probing a doc claim

But IV wasn’t just asking whether the Doc was gated or not gated right. Which fine, I may understand. IV admitted to trying to figure out in which way. And c’mon now, you’re not seriously going to argue that’s pro-Town.

[Andresvmb]

^Though I’m not going to judge something being claimed in RL (I take these claims at face value, until such time as players demonstrate that they will use all means necessary to advance themselves in a simple game of Mafia), what *is* curious is that the clarification around the mindset came after the slip was highlighted. And you could make a case that it makes it more likely for the slip to actually be a thing, since a Scum player in the right mindset probably ensures not to post something on the main thread that was meant for the Scum PT.

Look, we can debate this until the cows come home, but I am not letting this one go. IV is clearly now a controversial slot. I would never trust IV in any late state situation in this game. So, I would rather eliminate the slot sooner rather than later. If IV is Town, the slip and everything that came around it will be used to the advantage of Scum later.

[Andresvmb]

Also I think it should be p obvious that IV and I are never aligned

This is relevant because it makes no sense for both of us as scum to ask about gating on kerset, it would make much more sense for only one member of the scumteam to do so

So you’re left with a world where I’m scum WKing IV for cred, or a world where I’m town and this is a strong defense coming from town

Like there is a chance that IV has pocketed me, which I could maybe believe in a world where he’s exactly scum with teacher or maybe ydrasse but I think that’s unlikely. But unless you think I’m scum then you need to accept there are a lot of good faith reasons to TR IV and I’ve outlined a bunch of them above and those should outweigh a not-even-a-scumslip

Okay but you’ll notice that what I’m arguing is that you might actually be the one that was supposed to ask, and IV was simply supposed to sit in the background while commenting that in fact the reaction by Kerset does make them think that Kerset is gated. And then they said I’m delirious ignore me.

[Andresvmb]

^This doesn’t have to be with you necessarily actually. It could be that they saw that you were asking and had commentary around it in the Scum PT. But it also works assuming you as the Partner.

[Andresvmb]

I won’t be arguing against your Town case for IV. In fact, I made a long case as to why I thought IV was Town earlier, you might recall. So yeah, there’s a lot in the game to back the position that IV is Town. But the defense IV put forth for plusJOYED did raise alarm bells in my head, because I am very negative on the slot.

[Andresvmb]

Alright now I have doubts that the slip is what it is. Great Menalque you are succeeding. I’m just annoyed now. Like why?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: plusJOYED

[Andresvmb]

I’m annoyed btw because it’s a silly post. Like it’s anti-Town and just why make it? If you want to write down thoughts on the game state, why not just do it elsewhere? I do understand that I am making it a bigger deal than it has to be. I get that. But it’s also such an unnecessary post. IV I had you in my small group of untouchables. I had {Saudade, IV, Ydrasse} up there. I have to downgrade Saudade right. I also made the comment earlier as to why (activity around the crumb). But now I just feel very insecure about my reads.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: osuka

[Andresvmb]

Can we execute plus at some point this game? I want to make sure I’m not the worst player ever.

[Andresvmb]

I rescind my TR of Shelly. Bob I want to see a hard stance from you.

[Andresvmb]

I rescind my TR of Shelly.

are you going to scumread everyone that does not share your views

Funny. I have a pool. It used to not include you. Now it does.

[Andresvmb]

However, I will say Shelly is not my top target. Maybe top 3. I need more from Tayl0r and Bob. I have {plusJOYED, Osuka} as Lean Scum. With Kerset a claimed gated Doctor, and NDMath a claimed Ascetic, I wouldn’t execute there. Not for now. {IV, Menalque, Ydrasse} are now my top Town Reads. Saudade is still Lean Town but I’m finding his activity around the crumb to be something to focus on later. Teacher is by default a slight Lean Town I think, and mostly based on Menalque’s read there. Definitely not sure about that slot. And shellyc accusing plusJOYED of being opportunistic Scum but acting the way they are is the reason I’m rescinding my read there.

[Andresvmb]

That’s where I’m at. Honestly my view of the game is a bit of a jumbled mess because of the one post from IV. I hate that I highlighted it at all.

[Andresvmb]

could it really be as simple as bob math saud

I think there’s something to be said about Saudade Unvoting following the crumb, making a post about how isn’t it obvious as to why, and then returning and voting Kerset anyway while saying they were Scum (and bye or something like that). I didn’t pick up on the crumb at all. In fact it was meant as an attack on me so that’s how I read it and didn’t pay attention to that at all. And the misspelling of ambulance in the first sentence also threw me off.

[Andresvmb]

I think NDMath has been way too lurky to make an accurate assessment there. But I do think that Ascetic is an aggressive claim to make as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Bob I’m not sure. They worked through your slip in a methodical way, and almost seemed to be concluding that it was bad, but *didn’t* vote you. And I thought that was odd. But Bob’s contributions do not read Scummy to me. At the same time, what I have seen from Bob is an assertive Town player that establishes a POE and pushes it aggressively. I have not really seen that here.

[Andresvmb]

And plusJOYED is just... I don’t know, I don’t TR plus here. I have seen plus be a bit of a mess in thought process as Town, but there’s just something off here.

[Andresvmb]

Does Menalque hard push Osuka wrong as Town though? And Osuka has been pushing you IV since early when I didn’t think it made any sense.

I just can’t fit all of the pieces but I don’t think it’s that simple.

[Andresvmb]

If the Scum Team does contain {Melanque, IV}, I’m going to admit to sucking hard.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be back tonight. I need to think about a lot of things. I am not all that inclined to want to vote claimed Doctor. Seems like a silly play for a D1.

[Andresvmb]

WHERE IS BOB.

[Andresvmb]

I unvoted because he was at L-1 and if the day ended right there I would've felt that we didnt get enough from the day

Yeah and how did that work out?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I’m heading to bed. I’ll reassess at some point tomorrow.

I’m probably inclined to lynch in (Kerset-Plus).

Whether or not saud thought it was hammer, Kerset shouldn’t have. I know — especially as PR — exactly where Vcs on me stand. I don’t see him not knowing that ONE of of saud/IV was already on wagon, much less both. Kerset claimed at L-2, but did so wearing an attitude of being hammered, rather than responding to intent??

It people are too scared of going to claimed PR, I’m going to need some selling on Osuka>Plus.

I feel sympathetic to the argument that as PR you should know where your count is and who is voting you at all times, but that is very much how you may personally approach the game (or even how you ideally should approach the role) versus what Kerset may or may not have been doing (and it’s hard for me to be fully convinced that not approaching it in the ideal way is Scummy). I agree that I am not all of a sudden spectacularly comfortable with the Kerset slot since the arguments they made against me were, from my POV, bad (and I haven’t seen any sort of re-evaluation from Kerset). I’ll also point out that the way that Menalque approached asking about any limitations to the role heavily implied that it would be less believable if the role did not have any limitations. I’m not trying to extract any further information at this point btw. Enough time has passed that it is now a useless exercise. But that also influences it.

The other question I have is - why crumb doctor at all? Who cares to crumb that role? That I’m not sure I fully understand and maybe somebody can help me with that.

[Andresvmb]

Andres why did you unvote Kerset so easily?
Your follow up posts seem to be taking Kerset as hardtown, did you not have your own read on the slot and you were just sheeping?

My first instinct when seeing a PR claim for a role that is not a good long-term decoy for Scum is to Unvote. At the same time, I recognize that a Claim from a heavily suspected person needs to be strong enough to elicit that sort of reaction. I’m not completely sold that Kerset is Town and I’m not hard Towning them. But I do very much think it’s a bit of a misplay to hard push for a claimed, un-CC’ed Doctor on D1.

[Andresvmb]

People hiding in my shadow and then turning on me when things go a bit south will get slapped by the AUTHORITY

Kerset [5]: Andresvmb, Ydrasse, innocentvillager, Saudade, Menalque

osuka [4]: Menalque, innocentvillager, Ydrasse, Andresvmb

Presumably, y’all hopped off Kerset because of the claim, ya? So you have to presume there was scum on Town!kersets wagon, right?

Then what the hell are you doing being willing to wagon another slot with the exact same people? I mean I think most of you TR saud, so his difference does not explain this behavior.

I will admit, this is a good point. Expecting a different result with the same people on the wagon is not likely. However, I’m not really TR Kerset outside of the Claim, and I do very much TR the people I was voting for. So I don’t know that I would immediately turn around and condemn the people on the wagon when I still feel like Kerset has a few things to prove.

[Andresvmb]

^That Saudade post I did not mean to include, but I did find it funny hahaha

[Andresvmb]

^^voting with*

[Andresvmb]

I can see IV as possibly being with Kerset (there’s nothing like a fake hammer test to possibly spare a partner you were bussing), and I’m willing to go there. I’m pretty strong on that with four claims, we should lynch in the claim pool rather than go outside it. I’m quite positive scum will never shoot Kerset, so would prefer to resolve that given my read of the claim and the wagon (including a gut town on IV that I’m willing to compromise on)

i mean im not willing to lunch the ascetic or miller without *other* reasons why they might be scum. claiming those early on is... fine?

and yeah i could kinda buy saudade orchestrating the fake hammer to deflect pressure and use the claim gambit. dunno if i buy that coming from iv. but it could be all three of them. while i understand your point about a posible interpretation of menal's post being "if iv is scum theres no way im also scum" and that scum rarely actually scumslips. but i already dont like menal and when of my top scumreads scumclaims for himself and one of my other top scumreads, im gonna give in to confbias 9 times out of 10.

Okay I do feel I need to respond to this. Fine if you think the fake hammer test is silly (I thought it was a hammer at first and then quickly realized it wasn’t), but how *likely* do you think it is that 1. The entire Scum Team (and you’re assuming what that there’s 4 Scum this game?) all put forth a fake hammer of their buddy (and for some reason are all voting for their buddy) to elicit a fake claim to clear him? Is that your logic here? Because it seems pretty terrible to me.

[Andresvmb]

And 2. Are you claiming that potentially your Scum Pool is what Saudade, IV, Me, Menalque?

[Andresvmb]

@Bob can you update your shellyc read for me?

[Andresvmb]

I don’t like that Bob has been voting NDMath for what feels like forever and is doing nothing with his vote. Either make a strong case as to why NDMath is correct today or put your vote to better use.

[Andresvmb]

So are you going to move your vote at all?

[Andresvmb]

why would I claim VT if I was scum, I’m probably getting eliminated anyway

So you could say that.

And the fact you have said makes it obvous you are very much aware.

Bob, this conflicts directly with what you said in #1296 of Mini Normal 2157, where you bashed me directly for doubting a VT Claim near death D1. Why should I not Scum Read this?

[Andresvmb]

Scum near always claims a pr when run up day one. Scum dont panic as they have 2 players talking to them in the pt.


Show me where before you have seen scum in the game from day one claim vt. And most importantly show me the ratio between scum claiming vt day one and town claiming vt day one.

In fact the way you’re treating IV and Kerset is almost in direct contradiction to what you wrote here.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Bob

[Andresvmb]

Scum near always claims a pr when run up day one. Scum dont panic as they have 2 players talking to them in the pt.


Show me where before you have seen scum in the game from day one claim vt. And most importantly show me the ratio between scum claiming vt day one and town claiming vt day one.

In fact the way you’re treating IV and Kerset is almost in direct contradiction to what you wrote here.

One he didnt claim at l-1.

Two straight away he tried to play the scum woudl claim vt card.

Third there was no pr claim preceding it.


Odds of running two town pr in row are low. Best odds in that situation is alwasy to claim vt. Hard bit is determining which.

Also look at my last scum game. My partner claimed vt. See how involved i was in saving him

Why is it at all important that IV did not claim at L-1? In the context of you saying that Scum almost never claim VT D1? And you literally made fun of me for saying that claiming Doctor could present complications later in the game. And there weren’t any PR Claims preceding your argument about Snowblaze in that game, since the PR’s that game were Tracker and Mason, and no Mason was run up early. Your 1 and 3 are like obvious nonsense. I can maybe see 2, but I’m still feeling like you’re very much stretching to defend your stances.

[Andresvmb]

why would I claim VT if I was scum, I’m probably getting eliminated anyway

So you could say that.

And the fact you have said makes it obvous you are very much aware.

Bob, this conflicts directly with what you said in #1296 of Mini Normal 2157, where you bashed me directly for doubting a VT Claim near death D1. Why should I not Scum Read this?

The slot you were pushing was the townies slot in the game. Why i repped into him.

I dont like repping into scum games so i read teh slot before joining

And teh big thing andre do you see me voting village. Still nlot sure if kerset was his counter wagon or if he was simply a run off wagon from kerset

Why does it matter that you aren’t voting IV? It’s about your stances and approach. I don’t think there’s even a question that there’s a massive disconnect between you this game and there. It’s about whether you’re Scum or not.

[Andresvmb]

Like are you saying that any argument goes provided that you TR or SR a slot? Because it almost sounds like that what you’re implying.

[Andresvmb]

^that’s*

[Andresvmb]

I’ll catch up later this game is getting out of hand haha

@Bob, understood that you repped into a slot that I was attacking and had claimed VT, and you had the inside knowledge that the claim was legitimate. I get that. All I’m saying is that you are clearly not applying the identical logic to IV’s claim. Now, I do agree that if the person is aware that such a claim might be a silly one to make as Scum on D1 because it doesn’t advance the Team, and makes that statement out loud, it blunts the impact of the claim. That’s fair. However, it’s not just that. You are also defending the only PR claim under pressure in the game (from Kerset). Again, I am ALSO inclined not to want to execute a claimed un-CC’ed Doctor. So it’s not like I think you aren’t making any sense. But you are going against your previously stated logic (when I know you were Town), and so I would have hoped for some sort of more convincing explanation.

I also have very much been feeling that until you’ve been put under pressure, you have been sitting on the sidelines and avoiding putting your foot down. So I definitely wanted to see more. I will have to re-read and make up my mind, but it did raise a red flag for example that you were still carrying your RVS vote.

[Andresvmb]

And yeah, I haven’t criticized your wagon and game state analysis because if you do flip this game, I will revert back to it for additional color for sure (and I do think it’s helpful, even in a chaotic game like this one). But I also need to have more confidence that you’re Town. I don’t think our reads diverge all that much here - I just think there’s a lot of confusion, and I can’t really figure out who is the best execution here.

[Andresvmb]

@Menalque, @Ydrasse I want us to agree on a course of action. Menalque is obviously on Osuka, but I don’t know that this one gets through, and I do have a Negative Lena there, but I also want to re-read.
@IV I want some thoughts on what you would be willing to vote here. I see you very scattered and defensive (particularly after your “slip”, but I have been liking your takes so I want to see more of them). I know you said you wouldn’t post much until Wednesday, and you needed a break - all I want is a small list of players you would vote. That’s all.

I have a good sense of what some other players want to do. Saudade is almost death tunneling Kerset (but would also clearly vote for Osuka), and Bob is on Teacher (and defending Kerset given their Claim). Kerset is tunneling Teacher almost, after somewhat tunneling me. plusJOYED’s 2325 makes it pretty clear where they would vote, which also includes Teacher.

@Kerset, how do you feel about my slot now?
@Tayl0r where are you? You seem to be vibing with plus after SR’ing there, which I don’t have any major objections to actually I’m still trying to figure out what to make of plus. Your vote is still on IV, and you appear to also be willing to vote Osuka. How do you feel about Teacher/Bob?

Nobody has taken me up on answering whether crumbing Doctor makes sense. Can somebody seriously comment on that?

[Andresvmb]

^Negative Lean*

[Andresvmb]

I think {Bob, teacher} is not SvS. {Saudade, Kerset} is also not SvS. And {plusJOYED + Tayl0r, IV} I would guess is also not SvS. I want to solve one of these.

[Andresvmb]

sorry mena, what's your case on _me_ again? i was gonna say you can't read me but i'm pretty sure you're scum too so you know, whatever

Can you explain just a little more what you’re seeing with Menalque? I’ve been reading your ISO and I gotta be honest, I can’t read you. Like I could very much see you going either way. There are times when you make certain posts and I go yeah, that makes sense or that’s a good comment (say for example, your view in particular of Ydrasse’s posts in 1227, and you’ve had some of the same reaction I have had towards Bob in 1219), but then I feel you’ve been too pushy of IV.

[Andresvmb]

Like do you think Scum!Menalque tries so openly to take control of the game and push for a player in you that say, flips Town?

[Andresvmb]

I think {Bob, teacher} is not SvS. {Saudade, Kerset} is also not SvS. And {plusJOYED + Tayl0r, IV} I would guess is also not SvS. I want to solve one of these.

Do you specifically think that most of these are TvS?

I have the lingering suspicion that some of these almost have to be. There’s been too much positioning around Teacher and Kerset for example for some of the people on either side *not* to be Scum. Like Kerset and Teacher could very well both be Town. But the way everybody has been behaving around them and pushing one or defending the other definitely makes me thing that there’s Scum there for certain.

[Andresvmb]

^makes me think*

[Andresvmb]

We’re not 98 pages in, thousands of posts in, and /that’s/ the reason why bob is top wagon

I see a lot of differences between how Bob has approached this game, and the game we played together where he flipped Town. Do you not think any of it is valid?

[Andresvmb]

sorry mena, what's your case on _me_ again? i was gonna say you can't read me but i'm pretty sure you're scum too so you know, whatever

Can you explain just a little more what you’re seeing with Menalque? I’ve been reading your ISO and I gotta be honest, I can’t read you. Like I could very much see you going either way. There are times when you make certain posts and I go yeah, that makes sense or that’s a good comment (say for example, your view in particular of Ydrasse’s posts in 1227, and you’ve had some of the same reaction I have had towards Bob in 1219), but then I feel you’ve been too pushy of IV.

i can. he's town

You’re saying Osuka is Town?

[Andresvmb]

See, @plus, I find it concerning that Bob was your top TR (with limited content, which you admitted), but the minute that a sizable wagon builds on him, you downgrade him to null.

[Andresvmb]

Andres i can see ur online come here and vote osuka

I’m thinking. Like this game is devolving into two camps almost [Saudade, Teacher, You v. Bob, Osuka, Kerset] and I’m trying to find some way of breaking through the barrier. Something that convinces me that I’m siding correctly. And I can’t get there.

[Andresvmb]

i sat down + tried to reread osuka again and i feel like i don’t know how to read osuka so he wins

in all reality there’s a lot of ~vague~ and ~off~ in there esp early on which like, meh and the way of solving is not as... proactive? as it could be i suppose? there are reads in there but i don’t feel like i saw any solving. it’s like identifyinh what puzzle pieces are without trying to put them together. also i think that it’ll help sort like. a ton of people if osuka is flipped.

i might also be bad at reading osuka though

Honestly if you’re Scum, I applaud you. How is it that we come to the SAME conclusions. Like read my take on Osuka just a few pages ago.

[Andresvmb]

Andres i can see ur online come here and vote osuka

I’m thinking. Like this game is devolving into two camps almost [Saudade, Teacher, You v. Bob, Osuka, Kerset] and I’m trying to find some way of breaking through the barrier. Something that convinces me that I’m siding correctly. And I can’t get there.

which side would you say iv is on

Opposite you. But I don’t SR IV so I’m struggling with that.

[Andresvmb]

There’s this acrimonious disagreement between Menalque and Osuka, and yet the top wagon is Bob. WHAT IS THIS GAME.

[Andresvmb]

There’s no way this is TvT right? Because if so, we really are screwed.

[Andresvmb]

what is ellitelling?

It’s an activity tell. If I remember correctly, it has to do with being in say 2 games simultaneously, but avoiding posting in one of them. The conclusion is that you’re likely to be Scum in the game you’re avoiding.

It’s called the Ellitell because Ellibereth came up with it? I presume?

[Andresvmb]

Andres, can you please vote here now

Honestly I don’t want to yet. There’s a few players I am trying to get a better measure of, and I want to see them vote. I have put practically every thought I’ve had about this game out there. I’m going to try and get on the wagon with the most people I TR frankly.

[Andresvmb]

if this is scum then both kerset and iv are town

Huh? I don’t see this at all.

[Andresvmb]

if this is scum then both kerset and iv are town

Huh? I don’t see this at all.

[Andresvmb]

Oh I mean yeah, IV sure. I don’t see why Kerset is Town if Osuka flips Scum.

[Andresvmb]

again, go read

Or you can just clarify instead of being cryptic.

[Andresvmb]

Kerset is tunneling Teacher almost, after somewhat tunneling me. plusJOYED’s 2325 makes it pretty clear where they would vote, which also includes Teacher.

lol? i called out ONE doubt on you and it causes you to act like chihuahua

I asked you multiple times to update your read and you never did. I believe the only one of the two constantly being accused of whining is you not me.

[Andresvmb]

The thing is, I don’t think it’s very likely this game that all of Menalque, IV and Osuka are Town. I don’t. But there’s something off about the way Menalque is pushing for Osuka, and frankly I think there’s something off about the way Osuka is pushing IV. And the more I read plusJOYED, the more I think they’re kind of informed about alignments and enjoying throwing darts from the sideline.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t understand why Bob is being so passive. To be honest, I have one read I trust, and I think everybody else could potentially be Scum. And I generally find myself in games TR’ing too many people, and not what’s happening here.

[Andresvmb]

@IV can you stop self-voting please. It’s embarrassing. I get that you don’t feel motivated about this game, or maybe have too many games going on at the same time. But I honestly feel very little sympathy for self-inflicted errors.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t understand why Bob is being so passive. To be honest, I have one read I trust, and I think everybody else could potentially be Scum. And I generally find myself in games TR’ing too many people, and not what’s happening here.

whose your one read?

Ydrasse Town.

[Andresvmb]

There’s too many people trying to manipulate me I feel into voting a certain way, and I can’t say I’m a big fan of that.

[Andresvmb]

Alright, we have 1 day. I think I’ll just do this and hope for the best.

VOTE: Osuka

[Andresvmb]

I also think Ydrasse is town. I TR you but I dislike you being so hesitant to read people here; not having reads or being very unsure about them makes you look towny but isn't protown at all, and we're past the point where you can be null on a lot of people.

I’m not null on people. I’m heavily conflicted. IV was very Town in my mind, until the giant debacle with the slip and all of that. Saudade I still think they are Town. But I am more unsure about it. Menalque is literally a 50/50. If Osuka flips Town, I am almost always going to question Menalque + Teacher heavily here. And I don’t recall ever playing with an Informed Town anything. So that gives me weird vibes. Particularly since it came as an attempt at burying the claimed Doctor at first.