Large Normal 229 | Manatee's Musical Mafia | Game Over

[Titus]

While I agree that there must be scum in Jackson/Ralph, the WIFOM os intense and if JV is scum I would really lean towards you over Ralph. Jackson or Ralph should definitely be the look today but

all true town players need to be extremely slow to vote for anyone last we lose ourselves the game. This is of utmost importance to the town and we must take this slow. I would venture as far as to suggest intent to vote be declared before voting occurs on anyone.

I agree we need to take things slow. I don't want to get hustled. Ralph is obvious scum, but I want to find the partner. Worst case scenario, I find that the assumption is wrong or Jackson is the partner and we have guaranteed scum today playing a setup for tomorrow.

[Titus]

I want to see Looter's reaction to this.

[Titus]

Looter do you confirm that. If so there's scum in Looter/Titus. Safest play would be you checking Looter tonight while I protect you and Titus babysits Looter. That way it's an instant win for town I think.

Can you break this down? I'm not following the play here. If there's an autowin, I'd love it.

Since there's going to be one scum going into tonight. Wait fuck I forgot glitch sees visits on their target too hol' up.

If Titus no-visits. Glitch WIFOMS between Titus and Looter. I protect Glitch. Glitch will get either a positive or a negative result and if there's a kill that's an instant guilty, if there's a kill and it's a negative it's a guilty on the other. This is the world where I get shot.

If Ralph is scum and Jackson plus Glitch are town, this is autowin.

This dictates a Looter/ralph scumteam. I'm not sure I'm ready to get on that.

Who do you think ralphs buddy is?

I'm leaning looter at the moment, but I'm a little uneasy about it. I've been told I look a gift horse in the mouth too much but I just want to be sure. I mean it seems a little like a carrot... lynch ralph and coast. I don't like coasting.

[Titus]

What if it's Glitch Ralph?

[Titus]

To go along with this plan, I have to agree that you and Glitch are town and Ralph is scum. FMPOV, that's solving the game to enjoy this autowin. Your autowin is more that I won't get mislynched tomorrow if Glitch and you are both town. That's somewhat reassuring in that if I solve the gane I won't lose. I just need things checked.

[Titus]

Why can't Glitch be a mafia motion detector/neighborizer who was watching his partner n1?

[Titus]

Like this feels right but I feel like my worries are being glossed over. I think Glitch is town but why can't he be scum? I need you and Glitch to be more than very probably town. I need you both as lock town to be on board.

[Titus]

Catch up later today.

@Ralph, how long are uou vla for? Can you bold in thread?

[Titus]

From your pov, there's at least one scum within me and ralph with a possibility for both yet you push for a titus elimination.

This is on the basis that Ralph is scum too. If Jackson is scum, the whole protection plan doesn't work.

If Ralph is scum, then why not lynch him knowing I'll be trapped in the PoE?

Looter dismisses the possibility of Jackson and Ralph far too quickly.

I suspect Looter's reason for a fast TR on Glitch is a pocket attempt.

@Looter, Supposing Ralph is scum, why should I TR you over Glitch/Jackson?

[Titus]

It is also very possible scum know they could be in a really bad spot and are going to turn on each other in order to win. Anybody proposing an idea at this point that finds scum still does not get town points in my book. Just putting that out there now because Loot has just coasted on shellys death this whole time and made it this far and I just can't allow that to happen with anyone else after the next scum flip.

Unless we lynch Jackson, I don't see how burn and coast is a viable strategy. Ralph flips scum. Tomorrow becomes a 1 v 1 with you and looter. Looter cannot coast based off a Ralph bus.

Now, I don't see anyone hard bussing Jackson here to create this concern.

Workshop with me. Let's suppose Jackson is scum. Which is more likely scum, Ralph or Looter? I can't see where a Jackson scumteam fakes a guilty on his partner and proposes a near autoloss. I can't also see Looter trying to divert the lynch onto me in a Looter/Jackson scrnario. Is there something I am missing? Jackson could be scum but his only partner would be you. I don't see you as scum though, particularly with your vote abstain push.

[Titus]

@Looter, The fact you are insisting you're still a night 3 gunsmith is off. You did a decent fakeclaim, but why not own up to it as either alignment?

[Titus]

Ralph and TItus do seem to be on countering sides before I outted my check, it could be that Ralph is planning to yeet themself in hopes of Titus getting enough credit to win through tomorrow.

Ralph Titus should be an impossibility. Ralph Titus doesn't kill Ydrasse there, leaving a terrible bind. The autoloss scenario. Let's suppose that Ralph/Titus decided to leave Jackson alive to cop them, despite knowing Jackson was unprotected. The next logical kill would be Glitch to prevent from being caught comitting a kill.

Not killing either of these two suggests a team that couldn't kill safely. No one else kills Ydrasse there.

[Titus]

Ooh Glitch wants to VCA talk. Great. I'll color myself some votecounts tmo and we can see some real VCA.

[Titus]

No need to get arrogant. Just because our whole game was put on hold for people to wait on your VCA at one point (scum shelly being the loudest voice wanting to wait for it), doesn't mean the rest of us can't do VCA either.

Not meant to be arrogance. It's more excited that someone cares to have the intellectual debate of VCA.

[Titus]

Mod: Are scum multitasking?

[Titus]

@Glitch, how does your analysis change because I was afk during the Shelley speedwagon and guilties are generally not useful in vca?

[Titus]

Nope! I am not a fan of bussing anyways tbh

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

any questions?

I am town night 3 gunsmith. I have a big ole spiel about shit that I saved to my PC but have had a chance to post it and this shit has exploded.

I used my night action on Shelly.

She has a gun.

Given claim she is confirmed scum.

VOTE: Shellyc

Micc/manatee, would an unaware back up have a gun on them if they weren’t activated yet?

I can't answer this question because "unaware" is not a Normal role or modifier.

Votecount 4.04

shellyc (7) -

NorwegianboyEE, JacksonVirgo, stan1ey, Town looter, Glitch, Bell, Marshmallow Marshall

Almost50 (1) -

Titus

Titus (1) -

Almost50

Town Looter (1) -

shellyc

Not Voting (2) -

Ydrasse, ralph217

With 12 players alive it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

An elimination has been achieved.

The guilty came at 2 AM my time. The hammer was at 7-7:30 AM my time. The flip was at about 9. I was asleep the entire time. :/

[Titus]

It doesn't matter if we lynch Ralph and that's right because of the plan. My concern in defending against Ralph/Titus is that something is very wrong in the thought process.

[Titus]

@Glitch 5807, Your foundation is wrong. I can't kill and perform my action. There's no multitasking notification in the rules as is required in normals. Ralph would be required to do the kills.

[Titus]

Just verifying with the mod to ensure no mod error

[Titus]

Going back to the hospital for my girlfriends foot, please wish her luck she needs it it’s really really bad

Sorry if I don’t post for a while

I'm sorry to hear this Jackson. Hope things turn out the best they can for her.

+1 missed this post. Take care.

[Titus]

N1: I keep siteflaking
N2: Bell
N3: Mm
N4: Jackson
N5: Jackson
N6: Ralph

We're likely looking at Ralph Looter. Looter can't kill Jackson because it outs his clsim as fake.

[Titus]

Titus, according to your Looter/Ralph solve, this is how you read shelly's no-lim pool here, right?:

{

Ydrasse

,

Bell

,

Glitch

,

Fwesnid

,

Titus

,

Jackson

,

MM

} is my no-lim pool

Do you read this as scum planning since over 1400 posts ago for the final three townies to be any combination of shelly's list here and then she publicizes it here?

Can you rephrase this? My brain fog is blocking me from understanding.

[Titus]

N3: Mm

Had MM already claimed vig at this time? I can't remember anything lol.

He had claimed in response to being wagoned.

[Titus]

Titus, according to your Looter/Ralph solve, this is how you read shelly's no-lim pool here, right?:

{

Ydrasse

,

Bell

,

Glitch

,

Fwesnid

,

Titus

,

Jackson

,

MM

} is my no-lim pool

Do you read this as scum planning since over 1400 posts ago for the final three townies to be any combination of shelly's list here and then she publicizes it here?

Can you rephrase this? My brain fog is blocking me from understanding.

Shelly provided a list of people she wanted to stay alive.
You suggested the solve may be Ralph and Looter.
Shelly's list included everyone currently alive except Ralph and Looter.

If that's the case, do you think shelly's no-lim list is a pool of the town players that scum wanted to be in the endgame?
Do you believe that shelly would make this "no-lim" list without any scum in the list?

Yes, shelley was a) widely suspected so people might assume scum in the list, shading them b) it distances slightly from her partners without having to shade them by name.

[Titus]

I did some thinking while off-site because this was getting really stressful for me. I think Titus is probably just Town because they would need to be multitasking for them to be able to babysit and for ralph to not do the kill. Although Titus DID ask the mod if scum can be multitasking in thread which seems incredibly manipulative into making me think "Titus is conf town because no multiasking" like something I would do as scum.

I'll give looter and titus an ISO dive soon I think

Literally flawless insta-win except if Titus is multitasking.

Doesn't the instawin require I do nothing anyway? So seeing me move would be a scumclaim?

[Titus]

If Ralph is scum, from my point of view, the motion detecting will not give a reliable result: any check on me will almost certainly be positive, unless there's a no kill, in which it will be negative. Either way, the motion detection is going to implicate me, regardless of my alignment:
If I am scum, and there's a kill: Obviously positive.
If I am town, JV is town and Titus is scum: Titus will visit me with their loud PR, and kill with multitasking, or no kill and not visit me
If I am town, JV is scum and Titus is town: JV will either no kill, or kill me (he can't kill Glitch, and won't kill Titus because it would clear me)
If I am town, JV is town and Titus is town: Motion detector result is fake because Glitch is scum

Glitch motion detects me. I am supposed to stay home. That prevents the myth of Titus being multitasking. Glitch gets a no result. Then it's Glitch v Looter or Glitch v me or a no kill.

If a no kill happens, Glitch still targets me again. I stay home. If scum kill Glitch, then Jackson gets a result. He should target Looter. Then either a) Glitch clears me. This leaves Glitch v Looter or Glitch v me. or b) Jackson gets a result on Looter. This leaves Jackson v Looter or Jackson v me.

No matter what result we wind up in a 1 v 1 with one conftown. That's what happens if we lynch Ralph, I stay home, and Glitch motion detects me while Jackson heals Glitch.

[Titus]

If Titus is multi-tasking that post is a

borderline

unethical and I don't get that feeling from Titus.
Damn why can't I get a solid SR on anyone!!!

I think it's because you're overthinking things. We have a path to victory and there are two slots saying no but otherwise not contributing. I think you're just convincing yourself they might not be scum because you want to keep an open mind to Ralph and Looter but instead you went as far as to go partial Devil's Advocate in your own head.

[Titus]

I am willing to vote Ralph.

[Titus]

What stops looter from just saying titus visited them to get a ML

It just creates a 1 v 1 where Glitch is conftown. We could always force ppl to claim if I visited them before Glitch outs the results. Then Looter trying to fake a visit is a scumclaim if Glitch checked me.

[Titus]

The way all 4 of us are so on board with this is to be expected and yet makes me wonder what scum is up to.

It's likely Ralph is just obvious scum and scum are just going to pick their 1 v 1. The discussion lets scum figure out who they can challenge and who they can't.

[Titus]

@Looter. Sure if it's a blind vote it's 33% but obviously this is not a blind vote at all. From my perspective the solve is fairly simple and it's essentially a 66% chance to hit scum within my poe. I have serious serious doubts thinking anyone is scum within looter/titus and that leaves a pool of 3. One we can pop today and the other I can solve with my check if the wifom goes our way

pedit: I do see your point but I still think it's just as safe to just lynch ralph here, they're pushing an anti-town agenda especially with a vote on them.

this makes me like loot though . loots is arguing for the no elim and it relly looks like jack is trying to talk him down here . maybe its jack + glitch then . dont need to figure that out today though

Jack glitch votes you already.

[Titus]

titus do you see what im saying here ? please tell me you can

I'll read it more for detail later today/tonight.

If you are town, you should really be suspecting looter though for his whiteknight. You look really bad here regardless of your alignment.

The reaction test point is a waste of time. Looter's was worse to me.

[Titus]

whiteknight

Can someone define this term in context of mafia please?

When a player heavy defends another I believe, could be wrong

It's when a player, usually scum, defends a player more than what the situation suggests is proper. Scum are more likely to do it than town because they a) know the slot is town or b) need to keep their partner alive.

Tbh, I scumread looter more than Ralph or JV.

[Titus]

You SR more

outside

of the red-check?

Yes because I don't have you as locktown.
Glitch I am pretty sure is town.
You v Ralph would ham it up more if S v S. Ralph would have a definite strategy. Here the guilty seemed to surprise him, like he thought you'd check town.
If you v Ralph has just one scum and Glitch is town, Looter must be scum. His play is scummy. His role claim is scummy.

[Titus]

the point of the case is that i dont he mistook the vc as its huge and on the top of the page and just 5 posts before jack posted . assuming he missed it is giving him the massive benefit of the doubt .

Okay. So you believe JV intentionally faked declaring L1. Why? For reactions?

yes just like any of the other times people fake l-1 or fake hammers

like how jack did earlier here:

VOTE: 72offsuit

I sense this is gonna be the wagon for tday

No more votes until claim.

>:)

VOTE: 72offsuit

Townies faking l minus 1 is common for reactions or to get people to claim.

[Titus]

You SR more

outside

of the red-check?

Yes because I don't have you as locktown.
Glitch I am pretty sure is town.
You v Ralph would ham it up more if S v S. Ralph would have a definite strategy. Here the guilty seemed to surprise him, like he thought you'd check town.
If you v Ralph has just one scum and Glitch is town, Looter must be scum. His play is scummy. His role claim is scummy.

whats the case on loots? why is his clime scummy?

He claims night 3 gunsmith yet doesn't suspect the real gunsmith's claim is fake. He denies fakeclaiming too.

He's largely sat out of lylo willing to vote anyone and is shading everyone. He's trying to pick his 1 v 1.

[Titus]

VOTE: Ralph

[Titus]

Now, we eliminate Looter tmo.

[Titus]

If Jackson is scum, he carried the scumteam hard.

[Titus]

I am still shocked MM never shot me.

[Titus]

Those actions being

Glitch targets Titus/Looter
Titus targets nobody
I protect Glitch

I agree with this plan.

[Titus]

I pmmed the mod we have a flip so we can confirm if I was right putting you as locktown.

[Titus]

I'm sure we discussed this already but this game has fried my brain. How does ralph flipping scum make me locktown again?

It doesn't. It's just my read on you.

[Titus]

The odds of you me and Looter being town are infinitesimal given Jackson isn't claiming scum.

[Titus]

I am pretty shocked we won this given how loaded town was. Jackson really carried.

[Titus]

I am shocked Marshmello didn't shoot me.

EE I was scummy. This is where Jackson carried me.

[Titus]

i knew titus was no good!!!!

I actually changed the kill to you from Glitch for this reason. Neither of us would be confirmed by Glitch. If Glitch "cleared" Ralph, we just argue the other scum killed.

[Titus]

Mods should include babysitters more often.

[Titus]

Who is RV?

Town was great at scumhunting early.

[Titus]

Happy Birthday Nero.

You were the N1 nightkill for unquestionably being the town leader that was non-toxic. You played well while you were alive. You were really scary.

[Titus]

I'd love to play again with anyone in this playerlist. There's a large theme in signups.

[Titus]

LOL A50, get fucking over yourself.

It's a game, and this was a particularly good one even though we lost. Being a sore loser and calling out bad play in a negative way is just a dick move. Nice job on turning the end of game banter into something toxic.

ANYHOO...

Massive effort posts, good scum theatre, hard bussing, consistent protown play and of course 1000 fucking posts lol.

You definitely won the game for scum JV, well done.

It wasn't even a matter of me not being able to convince others you were guilty, because I didn't think you were. You fucked up plenty, but not bad enough and not often enough to get yourself eliminated (and Ralph helped you by doing just as much).

My last game post is lol. Turns out I had you guys nailed. But I wasn't willing to vote it so can't really gloat.

Shoulda pushed harder to vote outside red-check and elim the obvscum... ah well. I learned a lot and had a lot of fun.

This is some quality content. I appreciate honest review and comments. It would be cool to have a spoiled spectator thread for some games in which a couple of solid pro players with a good site reputation provides commentary on play. What's good, what a bad, how to formulate reads on players, etc. That would be cool.

We could hydra in a game or you can observe any game I am in.

[Titus]

I really want to see dead chat.

[Titus]

Sorry Looter for the shading. Once Glitch was obvtown someone else had to be scum so I took advantage of your inactivity.

[Titus]

Putting Venge on a Vigilante is stupid setup wise. A confirmed vig is conftown in normals and MM couldn't be SK. I have a few more thoughts on this setup but it was very much townsided.

[Titus]

I still can't believe I lived after asking to be shot and the protown thing was to freaking shoot me.

The dead thread could be renamed the Why is Titus alive? thread. It was quite funny.

[Titus]

Hi mastina. Happy Cake Day.

Now, time for some honesty.

How did you think this was balanced?

Scum has only two PRs (even night watcher, loud vanilla cop) against 3 clearing roles (3 shot GS, n3 GS, Disloyal Roleblocker), an IC (the vig once claimed is unexecutable), a watcher (allows for follow the gunsmith/clears since scum have no way to bypass, PLUS it makes the even night watcher autoguilty), a motion detector plus neighborizer (has more multitasking than the scumteam and stops scum from lying about their actions). Plus the 3 shot GS was loud which meant the loud vanilla cop was CCed. Not even a rolecop to prioritize shooting the watcher.

Scum was really lucky all the PRs were outed/killed early because a loud rolecop can't investigate anywhere they want because they have to have a fakeclaim that justifies every visit. Even worse, it's only a vanilla cop.

Roll this setup 99/100 times town wins.

[Titus]

Oh I forgot to mention, town has more stopping power than scum.

[Titus]

Most of the town power roles have modifiers which make them less powerful.
*Scum vanilla cop is very helpful in determining who to night kill.

Really? Is it the disloyal modifier that makes things less powerful by clearing whatever PR it visits? The venge is utility neutral since it should never enter play. The three shot being loud CCs a scum so that's not negative utility. The only nerf in the context of this setup was n3 gs and that's still not a nerf but just a gatekeeping.

Scum shouldn't have to depend on a vig shooting wrong. Balance is not made around 4 or 5 vig misses.

Second, a vanilla cop tells next to nothing. Great found a PR...are they the doctor? Or are they doc protected? Scum have zero way of knowing the utility of any given PR.

[Titus]

Sans the vig is this balanced? mostly @ Titus

The vig actually gives scum a theoretical chance. Your role needed to be scum in exchange for my loud vanilla cop. Then it would be closer to balanced.

JV also would need to be a tracker, not watcher.